The Reformatory with Tananarive Due

TW: Sexual Assualt

In this episode, Alan and Cat talk to bestselling author Tananarive Due about imprisoning children, almost giving up on The Reformatory, historical research, To Kill a Mocking Bird, child child protagonists, using horror to deal with social issues, Kamala Harris, and much more.

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Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:01):
If this goes on, don't panic, bringing hope to the
world through speculativefiction.

(00:22):
You Hello
and welcome to If this goes on,don't panic. Today we have

(00:45):
author and movie producer tanataReeve do cat, how are you
doing? I'm doing very well. Ijust got back from Gen Con, and
that was just Alan, ooh.
I say this every year. I alwayswant to go to Gen Con, and I
never freaking make it someday,someday, someday, you should.

(01:08):
I mean, they've got a reallynice writers symposium and a lot
of really interesting writers.And it was, it was awesome. And
Linda Addison was our guest ofhonor, and she is just smart and
amazing and dresses like aqueen. And she was so, yeah,
I think she was guest of honorwhen I went to Stoker content

(01:30):
last year. Yeah, and you wantto, wanting to get her onto the
podcast, I believe. So we'llhave to do that. Yes,
yes, I would. That's, that's I,when I think people are cool, I
try and get them on the podcast,yeah? Because that way I can
schmooze with them.
Hell yeah. Cannot argue withthat at all. Speaking of guest
of honor, I was at Confluence acouple weeks ago, and you're the

(01:53):
guest of honor next year, I am.
It is finally okay to announcethat I'm so excited. And I yeah,
I a lot of people that I knowthere, and it's within driving
distance, which is nice, and I'mjust really looking forward to
it is always a it's always ahuge surprise when somebody
says, Come be a guest of honor.But just absolutely delightful,

(02:16):
absolutely delightful.
Yeah, yeah, who I was talkingto? But they were like, Yeah, we
asked Kat to be guest of honor.It was like the fastest response
we've ever had, within like ahalf an hour. She was like,
Yeah, I'll do it. Do
you think I should start holdingout? Like, well, I don't know.

(02:39):
Hmm, let me think, very busythat weekend, maybe I can fit
you in. No, I
love I love cons, and I lovegoing to talk to people and
yeah, no, so I'm always gonnasay yes, if I can make it, it's
awesome.
Awesome, awesome.
So before we get started, just acouple business items. Number

(03:00):
one. My good mic brokeyesterday. I was doing the
introduction for one of ourcolumn episodes, and I'm like,
the sounds really weird on thehere. And so I looked at the
microphone and it wasn'tworking. And I pulled out the
wire and the whole input cameout. So oh my god, yeah, that
was that was awesome surprise.So I'm using my backup mic

(03:21):
today, hopefully after editingand everything, it'll sound
fine, but that's where I amaudio wise. Also, we are going
to be having a new logo soon.Everybody out there, yay. It's
gonna be very cool. It is soawesome. And we actually have
two versions of the new logobecause all of us on the podcast
couldn't agree which color mixwe liked. So I was just like,

(03:45):
No,
no, you can. You should phrasethat differently. You know,
don't say we couldn't agree. Saysomething like we were so stoked
by all of them that we could notchoose between. There we
go. We were so stoked by all thedifferent versions of different
color schemes of the new logothat we're just like I told our
artists, I'll just pay for bothof them then, you know, and

(04:08):
they're awesome. And can't waitto get them out there and and
have everybody see those thatshould be coming soon. We're
also trying to put together, Ishouldn't say, put together
updates our website a littlebit, because our website's
getting, like, really out ofdate. So I trying to fix that
up. I'm working with Diane onthat too. So I don't know when
I'm gonna squeeze that inbetween other things, but I'm

(04:30):
trying
Awesome. Awesome.
Yeah, yeah. So I think, I thinkthat's all. I guess we should
get to, not a Remon, huh? Weshould Awesome. Okay, everybody
we will be right back withTanana Reeve do okay, and we are
back today. We have Tanana Reevedo an award winning author who

(04:52):
teaches black horror andAfrofuturism at UCLA. She is an
executive producer on shutters,groundbreaking documentary,
horror. Noir, the history ofblack horror. She and her
husband slash collaboratorSteven Barnes wrote a small town
for season two of Jordan PeeleThe Twilight Zone on Paramount
plus and two segments ofshutters, anthology film,

(05:14):
horror, Noir. They also createdtheir upcoming black horror
graphic novel, The keeper,illustrated by Marco Finnegan,
due in Barnes. Co host thepodcast life writing. Write for
your life, a leading voice inblack speculative fiction for
more than 20 years, due has wonan American Book Award, an NAACP

(05:36):
Image Award and a BritishFantasy Award. And her writing
has been included in best ofyour anthologies. Her books
include go summer stories, mysoul to keep and the good house.
She and her late mother, civilrights activist Patricia Stevens
do co authored freedom in thefamily a mother daughter and
memoir of the fight for civilrights. She and her husband live

(05:59):
with their son, Jason. Welcometo non Reeve. Hey, excited to be
here. Thank you. Yeah, oh, weare super excited to have you
here. It's been, uh, it's been
a year. Oh, my God, yes.
That means so much, so fewwords. That means so much and
different things to everybody.But yeah, in this particular

(06:21):
case, I'm talking about my, mybook, the reformatory, because
it has been a year. I mean,yeah, I just, I'm kind of
stunned. I just saw an articletoday that it was nominated for
a dragon award at Dragon Con,which
is a first. Yes, congrats.That's his first for me,

(06:42):
and it's just amazing. I'mpitching myself every day.
It's a great book. I reallyenjoyed it. I just love the
history that you put into yourbooks, and especially this one,
it really came through in thisone I interviewed you. Oh gosh,
about five years ago, it wasbefore COVID. Let's just say
that it was in the before times.Yes, I'm curious about your,

(07:06):
your your connection to history,and you know why you, you like
to include it in your storiesand and also your, your your
research process.
Wow, that is a great question,and it's funny because I
remember, like, a million yearsago, literally, well, not quite
literally, my previous agent,who has since passed away,

(07:30):
brought me into a project calledthe Black Rose with the Alex
Haley estate, which was a novelabout madam CJ Walker, who was
repeated to be the first blackfemale millionaire. And I was
like, Why are you bringing thisto me? I'm not a historical
writer. And he said, Well, youhad historical chapters in your
novel. My soul to keep, andthose were pretty good. So I

(07:51):
think you ought to give this atry. And I have to tell you, I
have been hooked ever since. Andyou know, you talk about
research, that process ofworking with the notes of Alex
Haley and seeing how hebasically cataloged major
current events year by year,like the kinds of things people

(08:12):
would have been talking about.So I learned a lot about process
of writing historical just byputting eyeballs on the research
he compiled on this book withthe great granddaughter. I think
it's a great, greatgranddaughter, actually a madam,
CJ Walker, Aliyah bundles, sothat kind of speaks to some of
the research piece. But I didn'tknow I loved it until I loved

(08:36):
it, and pretty much since then,it's been Joplin's ghost, which
is, you know, Ragtime performerScott Joplin, and twin story and
contemporary time is basicallyto show the more things change,
the more they stay the same inthe music industry. But with
ghosts and the reformatory iskind of a similar concept. It is

(08:59):
a snapshot to me, honestly,having co written that memoir
with my late mother, PatriciaSteven Stu and hearing about her
childhood in the 1950s in ruralFlorida, that opportunity to
really try to anchor a reader inher time, I don't know. It's

(09:21):
just so weird to me, becausewhen we think about history, you
know, it's just graveyard upongraveyard upon graveyard, so
many people who are gone. Isometimes think, Wow, if I could
go back 100 years, I'll know Iwould never do that. And thank
God I can't do that. But if Iwere to do that, there are,
like, so many people I couldfind to be my friends. You know
what I mean? Like such coolpeople, smart people, creative

(09:44):
people, people who love music,just like I do, generation after
generation after generationproduces this, this entire
universe of people that didn'tjust die, and then we start over
again, right? And I, I want to,like anchor and like, look this.
Was my parents coming of age,time of life, 1950 Florida was

(10:07):
where my mother grew up. Andeven though the reformatory is
very loosely based, or I shouldsay, inspired more than based on
what happened to my great uncle,my mother's uncle, a real person
named Robert Stevens actuallydied at the Dozier School for
Boys in Marianna, Florida in1937 and almost like from the

(10:29):
minute I visited that facilityand I was there for the start of
exhumations the University ofSouth Florida. Aaron kimerly Is
the researcher who was guidingthis project to try to just see
how many people were even buriedon the grounds, like they just
had random burial spots thatwere unmarked. I don't think

(10:50):
people even get when you see thephotographs, there's all these
little crosses. No, thosecrosses were not put there by
the Dozier school. That was aBoy Scout troop doing his best
to guess where maybe the bodieswere, but just a horrific,
horrific scenario. And we cantalk about the specifics of the
Dozier school more, but just totry to keep myself focused, the

(11:12):
minute I heard about this placeand had an opportunity to talk
to survivors, both black andwhite and and just in one
meeting, I mean, they'rememories of this whipping shed
that they called the WhiteHouse, which is what's pictured
on the front of the book. I callit the fun house, just to make
even more insidious than itactually was. Is I give it like

(11:32):
a game, supposed to be a funname, but it was insidious
enough. You know, honestly, theycalled it the White House, and
it seemed like everybody wentthrough this place, it was very
like the infractions were sohard to avoid. Like someone told
me after I published the book,who was there literally at the
time that I set my novel in 1950I wish I had been able to talk

(11:54):
to him before I wrote it, butthat would have just made it
even worse, because theinfractions were so terrible.
Like if you step off thesidewalk, you might get sent to
the whipping shed, or if you youcried out at a certain point,
they'd start over again with thelashes. I was like, holy cow,
what a hellish place this was,and I knew I wanted to write

(12:14):
about it. In some way, flirtedwith the idea of nonfiction,
because I had done a memoir withmy mother, but you know,
honestly, a I don't like writingnon fiction. I was a journalist
for 10 years. I lovejournalists. There's a special
place in heaven for journalists,but it's not who I am. I'm a
novelist, and non fiction feelsmore like writing with my left

(12:36):
hand and I'm right handed. Soonce there's that, and there's
also, it's a sucky story,honestly. I mean, a kid gets
sent to the story and dies. Thatis not like my vibe as a writer.
So I wanted to honor the factthat Robert Stevens existed and
had been erased, not just fromoverall history, but from his

(12:59):
own family history. I didn'tknow about him until the state
of Florida called me. I've metsomeone who was a namesake of
his. He didn't know who he was.I think it just tore a hole on
my grandfather's side of thefamily, and it was paved over,
as a lot of trauma gets pavedover. And I wanted to use a

(13:20):
historical novel as a way, notjust to talk about the injustice
of this horrible place, and notjust as a way to kind of create
a fun house mirror so thatpeople dealing with similar
issues now, because a lot ofblack and brown families today
have to contend with their kidsgetting sent to juvenile hall,

(13:40):
the school to prison pipeline isa very real thing. Students get
criminalized for truancy, andthen enough truancies, and then
you're referred to the policedepartment, and then, you know,
there's, there's a whole systemto shuttle our children into the
criminal justice system. And Iwanted it to be a through the
Fun House primer for parents,although if you read the book,

(14:02):
obviously the solution mycharacters came to is not always
possible or ever possible, butjust so they wouldn't feel more
alone, so they would feel moreseen for so people would
understand again, like withJoplin's ghost, the more things
change, the more they stay thesame, adding ghosts to make it

(14:24):
less traumatic a read, frankly,because having people who died
previously saves me from havingto depict death after death
after death in my novel. Butalso, honestly, I think maybe
the prevailing thing I wanted todo was to make history the
monster in this book, to makeJim. And that was the hardest

(14:45):
part, honestly of writing it,aside from the memoirs and
hearing about the abuse thatchildren suffered at the Dozier
school, it was having to be in1950 like literally just having
to exist. Because when I write.Really parachute into my books,
and I write with a very closethird person point of view. I'm

(15:07):
experiencing the story alongwith my characters, and being in
1950 aside from just being atthe reformatory, but literally
being anywhere in 1950 wasreally, really hard for me?
Yeah?
Well, I got a couple of things Iwant to say here. First, I want
to jump back a minute. Doug, Iused to be a teacher, and I

(15:27):
taught in the inner city, inPittsburgh, and I'll never
forget this one kid came inafter school. He had a job at a
grocery store, right? And youknow when you're when you're
working at a grocery store. Iworked at a grocery store when I
was a teenager, you know, theygive you a box cutter, right?
And you have to bring it towork. It's your box cutter, and
you use it to cut the boxes andyou, you know, throw them out

(15:50):
back in the compressor thing.Well, he had forgotten it was in
his back pocket, okay? And hewalked in, and it went off
through the metal detector, andthey grabbed them, you know, and
they basically, I guess theybasically arrested him, more or
less, you know, like the schoolpolice came and got him. And I
had to write a letter to thejudge as this kid's teacher to

(16:10):
say, hey, look, this was anhonest mistake. I know this kid,
you know, like he is just tryingto make money. His family
doesn't have a lot, you knowwhat I mean, and all this whole
thing so that they wouldn't, youknow, when they wouldn't do they
wouldn't send them away. Well,they didn't listen to me and
they sent him away anyway. Areyou serious? Yeah, yeah, totally

(16:32):
serious. For how long? Gosh, howlong was he? Six months, I
think,
oh my God, for accidentallybringing up. I see that's what
I'm talking about. Yeah. I mean,a lot of ways, for a lot of
families, they are no better offin their In fact, some of them
are worse off in theirinteractions with police and
with the criminal justicesystem, because it's become

(16:54):
highly militarized on the streetlevel and highly commodified,
just on the sort of meta level,you know, there's, like, a whole
system that it has to uphold.There's there's bail bondsmen,
there's attorneys. So one of thesmall town sheriffs? Well, I
only interviewed one small townsheriff when I was writing this
in uh, Quincy, Florida, where mymom grew up, was one of these

(17:18):
outspoken and active sheriffswho tried to reduce recidivism
and had all these programs to tohelp people, because 50% of the
black men in his county weregoing through the jail system.
And he was like, Hey, we got toput a stop to this. And he got
in trouble. He got in troublefor bringing the numbers down in
his jail. And surprising, notyou, I see But, but that's the

(17:41):
thing. What a terrible injusticeto that child and what a
terrible trauma for that familyto go to. You're just as
helpless today if the policeknock on your door and want to
take your child away in chainsand put them in a cage, you are
just as helpless today as itsfamilies were in 1950 and that's
the sad part. And there are morechildren incarcerated than there

(18:04):
were in 1950 Yeah,
absolutely. Thinking back to it,it was a semester. I remember
that because when he got out ofschool, then he was allowed to
leave like it was the secondhalf of the year, if I recall
correctly so. But yeah, his I100% agree with everything that
you just said 100%
My heart just aches for thatsituation, yeah, and I know that

(18:25):
he was not alone, no. And it's,I mean, oh my gosh, just uh huh,
thanks for sharing that. No.Make everyone depressed. Very
depressing. Yeah, verydepressing. And that's the kind
of thing I'm talking abouteverywhere I turned working on
this book, because I did read abook about our contemporary
criminal justice system calledBurning Down the House and into

(18:48):
juvenile prison by NellBernstein, where I learned you
know that most children, minorswho are incarcerated and end up
sexually assaulted, contentwarning to talk about sexual
assault. Are not assaulted byother prisoners. They're
assaulted by the guards. Andthis just speaks to that weird

(19:10):
phenomenon, that humanphenomenon where people in power
abuse the powerless, becausepeople say, Oh no, how could
people abuse children? It'slike, of course, they're gonna
abuse that because they'repowerless, they're the perfect
victims, and not everybodyturned into an abuser. But do
you remember, was it theStanford study about when you

(19:30):
artificially assign people thelabel jailer and prisoner?
Psychologically, the jailersturned into police? You
know, yeah, yeah, yeah. To bringit back to your book, you know,
I do think you did a great job.Kind of lightning the topic so
much, because you're right. Imean, especially as a parent,

(19:51):
like, I'm reading through this,like, how could people do that?
Like, I could never do that. Iworked with kids. Did I get
pissed off at kids sometimes?Oh, yeah, definitely do. Were
there specific kids that Idreaded having in class? Oh,
yeah, absolutely. Did I everbeat them or anything? Did I
ever want to? No, definitelynot. You know what? I mean,
like, it's but, but you did agreat job lightening it up.

(20:13):
There was never a point in thisbook where I was like, oh my
god, I just can't go on. Youknow what? I mean, it's just too
much.
Yeah, you know, I'm a little bitof a hypocrite in the sense
that, like one I love StephenKing, of course, goes with that
thing. But one of his novelsthat I did not read was The, I
think it was called theInstitute, which was basically

(20:37):
about incarcerated, uh,children, uh, basically to me,
and I haven't read it, and Icould be wrong. Oh, my God. A 12
year old see to me the institutesounded like it was going to be
like reading Doctor sleep, butif the child had been captured,
you know what I mean? Like,
oh yeah.

(20:58):
And I was like, I can't do it,so I get it. When people say,
Oh, I wanted to read your book,but I couldn't just on like the
plot line, like, oh, that soundsrough. And I admit the plot line
does sound rough, but in thebook's defense, I will say this.
I in order for me to make itpalatable for readers, I really
had to strain out a lot oftoxicity. There were real life

(21:23):
stories I could have put in thenovel that I just couldn't bear
to weigh my readers down withknowing, like I'm kind of sad I
know about your student. Now,you know what I mean, like, it's
just adds more sadness to mylife. So I tried not to
overwhelm readers with that. Itried to make most of the
violence in the past so that theghosts are an honest

(21:46):
representation of how violentthe place is, without having to
immerse myself in that violenceand and on top of that, the the
thing that I'm happiest about Ihear from readers is that they
say it gives a sense of hope.Yes, because that's the thing.
Like, if I had missed that, Iwould have been very I needed

(22:07):
that. I needed that sense ofhope. And that's one of the
reasons that child protagonistsare so amazing, is that I always
felt like, while I was writingit, basically, the plot, by the
way, is I should tell read. Iguess everyone hasn't read it. A
12 year old boy basically thesame as in the institute. Now
that I'm looking up thatinformation, 12 year old boy

(22:30):
gets sentenced to six months ina Jim Crow segregated
reformatory for basically aschoolyard kick against a very
rich white teenager who's waybigger than him. He's a football
player. Doesn't matter. Powerstructure is what it is. Very
similar. Injustice is whathappened to your student. He

(22:50):
gets sentenced to six months.But this place is like a
concentration camp. How hole? Imean, it's forced labor. It's
you might not come home. Thatkind of situation a little bit
different than, thankfully, whatwhat inmates go through today at
juvenile facilities, in terms ofthe death rate, I would imagine,
was much higher than the initialaverage, I would hope. And so

(23:12):
that's his story, and realizingthat ghosts are real, but that
also ghosts are not his biggestproblem and his biggest fear,
and his sister. Twin storylineswere his 17 year old sister
Gloria, who was modeled on mylate mother. Her middle name was
Gloria, so it's like having mymother who was a civil rights

(23:33):
activist and basically became anactivist in high school. So it'd
be like, what if she had abrother that this had happened
to when their father had beenchased out of town on a trumped
up false allegation. What wouldshe do? And every turn it was
like, what would you do in thissituation? How do you fix it? So
there was this propulsive, likethe thing that drove me through

(23:55):
the long slog seven years Ispent on this book. It's the
longest I have spent writinganything, and it took seven
years because of the research,because the research was so
difficult, mostly avoiding it.To be honest, I didn't spend
seven years actually writing it.I spent seven years talking
about writing it, writing it,here and there. But it was that,

(24:18):
that just knowing that researchso I wanted the ending. The
ending was a thing I was writingtoward. I could see it in my
mind, in my memories, and I'mnot going to give away the
ending, but Cicely Tyson wasgoing to play the part of a
woman named Ms Lottie, who'snamed after my grandmother. And
I could see a scene with CicelyTyson that was my North Star,

(24:41):
like I need to write to like Igot so and there were so many
times I wanted to give up onthis book. I wanted to give up
on it when I heard that thatColson Whitehead was going to
publish the nickel boys, whichwas set at a fictionalized
version of the same institutionI had been working on it maybe
two or three years when thatbook. Was announced or when it
came out. So I was like, Oh,that was disheartening. I love

(25:03):
him. You know, it's like, Oh, myGod, that's gonna, like, get a
lot of attention. I'm sure it'sgonna be awesome. And it did it.
What a Pulitzer Prize. You canhardly get more attention than
that. But my my agent talked meinto continuing, and I have to
say, I am so grateful that therereally was enough bandwidth in
the literary world for thereformatory to exist alongside a

(25:30):
book like the nickel boys.Because, you know, for different
reasons, different stories,different writers, but also mine
has ghosts. Thank God. His doesit. Because, man, I knocked a
bullet. He could, you know, hedid magical realism and
Underground Railroad. So, yeah,I didn't know at first, and he
tweeted me, no ghosts, myfriend. I was like, Oh, thank

(25:50):
God, because I tell you, I wouldhave just I probably wouldn't
have finished it. I'll behonest, I probably would not
have finished it if he had beenwriting a ghost story too. I was
curious, when you're findinginspiration in historical
stories, is there somethingabout a particular story that

(26:10):
you hear it and you're justlike, oh, yeah, I want to write
about that. Or does it sort ofgrow on you over time? It's
it's both things. You know,there are definitely moments in
the book that are inspired byreal things I came across in my
research, although I, you know,I'll change the situation and
the facts and so, yes, in fact,that's one of the reasons, like,

(26:33):
I'm working on a book now calledBear Creek lodge that involves
research that's both historicalAnd, you know, sort of a
spoonful of science, and becauseit's a creature story, right?
And the part of me wants to justsort of write ahead, past the
hole in my because I ran into aresearch hole yesterday, I was

(26:53):
like, Oh, I literally don't knowwhat this man is thinking,
because I don't know anythingabout his field. So I thought,
let me I could skip thischapter. I could write the next
chapter about which thecharacters I already know. But I
have this superstition, becausesometimes you come across
something in research that is somind blowing that it changes the

(27:15):
trajectory of your story. Yeah,you know what I mean. So, yeah,
I don't want to over revere theresearch process, because it can
be a place you get lost andliterally get lost for years
like I actually don't adviseauthors to spend that much time
on research until they run intothat wall. And that wall, which
sometimes feels like writer'sblock, in this case, was

(27:38):
literally, I was ready to write.I was going to do a quota like,
I liked, I like, Yeah, I like toto read what I wrote that day in
the evening for fun, you know,but, but I couldn't write
because of the research hole,and that's when, yeah, you got
to stop for me anyway, do theresearch. But in terms of just

(27:59):
the broader aspect of it,reading books set in the time I
read James Baldwin's go tell iton the mountain. I read I had, I
had never read To Kill aMockingbird. I had never read
it. So I read that, which wasawesome, by the way. I mean, I
understand why schools feel likeit's telling a black story from
the outside in. And there'slike, a movement to, like,

(28:21):
replace it or supplement it. Andfrankly, while I was working on
the reformatory, I thought,Okay, well, people who grew up
reading To Kill a Mockingbirdwill understand the reformatory.
They will again this setting,this scenario, and that's a good
thing, you know, but theimmersion process of feeling

(28:42):
like you're walking through 1950when you weren't alive during
that time. For me, it meansreading a whole lot of stuff,
fiction, non fiction, so thatwhen I close my eyes and I'm on
that McCormick road, I can seethe cars passing. I can see, you
know, I can hear the way peopletalk. I can see the way Sears

(29:05):
catalogs. I mean, there's awhole flu of things. I use the
music of the era, whatever ittakes, like, just to feel like
I'm walking there. That's thebroader research. But yeah,
there are some independent,like, just little nuggets that
you learn across along the way,oh, like one. I'll give you a
great example of a historicalnugget. This was accidental

(29:26):
discovery that I just found insocial media in the turn of the
century, Victorian era. You guysmight know this. There wasn't a
lot of photography. So often ifyou see a family portrait, it
means that somebody died andthey would pose with the body.
This was just a god commonpractice. This might be the only

(29:47):
time they ever sat for a familyphoto. Would be like a funeral
pose. And that just inspired meso much. Like, oh my god, what
if the warden has this photo?Home in his office, and Robert
will notice it like because itjust looks like a family photo.
But Robert is very observant,and Robert's looking at this

(30:12):
photo, and he's noticing thateverybody else looks so grim and
hollow eyed, except for the boywho's holding the dead baby on
his lap, and that boy is smilingbecause that little sociopath or
psychopath, I forget which heis, killed his baby like he can

(30:32):
almost just see it in thepicture. And that's the kind of
specific research detail thathad I not come across it like it
just it to me, it's like, it'smore of a grace note than
something that turns a lot. ButI love those nuggets. I love
finding those little grace notesthat are not just sort of

(30:54):
background to help me see whereI am. But we're like, Oh, shoot.
This is an important thing. Ican really hang the ending of
the scene on this picture.That's
awesome. I did love that detail.That was actually one of the
creepier details, in my opinion.I just every time he looked at
it, I was like, oh, so weird.Thank you. You're welcome. I
think creepy. Your research.Whole comment made me think of

(31:17):
something. Have you both seenLoki, the TV show? Yes, yes. And
spoilers for Loki if you havenot seen it. So skip like, you
know, 30 seconds or something,but, but that that episode, it's
like the second to last episodeor something, and he's like, so
how long would it take me tolearn all the engineering and
all the physics that you guysknow? And they're like, I know a
century and then it's like acentury later. Yes, he's telling

(31:40):
everybody what to do. Okay, nowyou gotta do this thing. You
gotta do this thing. And forlisteners, if you haven't felt
like, yes, yes, it's exactlylike that. Okay, it's gonna take
me a century. Okay, exactly.That's
pretty much it. Although,honestly, if I had known it was
gonna take so long to write thebook. But now I've learned from
that mistake. I have learnedfrom that mistake, and I'll tell

(32:01):
you the mistakes I made thatmade it take me so long to write
this book. I let every otherproject with a deadline take
priority over it because I hadnot set a deadline. My agent and
I. My agent is Donald moss, andhe gave me a great idea for the
twist in the book, which I won'tsay what it is, but if you read
it, you know what it is. There'sa twist that has to do with the

(32:25):
ghosts. I'll just put it thatway. That was his idea. That's a
beautiful idea. I love thatidea. And he thought, rather
than try to sell it before Iwrote it. And we talked, is it
ya? We decided, no, we don'tthink it's quite ya. He's like,
look, finish it, then we'll sellit. So that meant no deadline
and not having a deadline. Whoo.That meant anybody else, yeah,

(32:51):
that wanted me to do. Like, itcould be a 500 word essay. It
could be a script I any andfrankly, any excuse not to be
working on it. You know, that'swhat it was that was that. So
now I've, I've, like, almostgone the opposite direction.

(33:11):
It's like I am blowing deadlinesright and left for other people
because I'm trying to write thisbook faster. I want to just it's
there. I've been I've beenpiecing it together for some
time now, because my currentnovel really was inspired by my
short story that won a WorldFantasy Award last year, which

(33:31):
was incident at Bear CreekLodge, which is a coming of age
story about a young boy whovisits his aging grandmother in
the woods, and there's some kindof creature on the property, and
he finds out that she's abusive.Look, I'm not, you know, it's
kind of a spoilery summary, butI think it's important I
understand. So I'm so the novelversion that's his backstory,

(33:52):
and most of the novel takesplace when he's an adult, and he
go and and, but also hisgrandmother as a child, as a
character. So I'm really kind ofunpacking this premise to show
the intergenerational trauma ofblack artists who have tried to
make a living in Hollywood withthe creature story as kind of a

(34:14):
metaphor for that trauma, ifthat makes sense, and I am like,
I'm researching old Hollywood.I'm watching movies. I watched
the jazz singer for the firsttime. I had never seen The Jazz
Singer, Nosferatu for the firsttime. I never seen that some
early Oscar Michelle, like, I'mgiving myself a film studies

(34:37):
course to try to make the 1920sand the 1930s and 40s come to
life for me the way 1950 did inthe reformatory. But I'm doing
it fast, like I am through thesebooks. I am racing through these
documentaries, and like I said,I am blowing a bunch of other
little deadlines because mynovel is first right now. That's

(34:59):
it. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. A less seriousquestion. I am kind of curious
where the idea for the ghostdust came from.
You know, goof for dust is areal thing. I'm not going to
pretend I'm a real expert on it.I did a lot of research into

(35:20):
really traditional vodou. When Iwrote the good house, like the
Haitian vodou and people who arepractitioners of those West
African based religions, thelaws and the, you know, gods and
all this, I really took thatseriously in this book. Not so
much. So there is somethingcalled goof or dust, which is

(35:43):
sort of hoodoo. And hoodoo iskind of a bastardized, you know,
Southern American kind ofversion of what maybe people
thought Voodoo is to do spellsand stuff love potions, you
know, that kind of thing. Sogoof or dust is real, like it's,
usually is from a grave orwhatever. But the specific use

(36:04):
for the paint dust I have andthe reformatory I, as far as I
know, I just made it up. And thepremise is, and I don't think
this is too spoilery, but if itis, you can cut it out. The
warden is so evil that not onlyhas he been responsible, either
personally or indirectly, forthe deaths of so many children

(36:26):
over the years, but he literallyis also hunting down their
ghosts. And this hate dust, thisgoofer dust, is like the catnip
for ghosts. It's like anirresistible sent to them and
and when, when he realizes thatRobert has a talent for seeing
ghosts, he wants to enlist himas a hate catcher, you know,

(36:50):
which is the last thing Robertwants to be. I mean, when he was
sent to the reformatory, thesocial worker said, be
invisible. You don't want tobring notice to yourself. And
it's like the total oppositething happens to poor Robert.
That
was definitely, definitely apart to that book where I'm
like, no, no stop. What? Why areyou making these decisions?

(37:10):
You're doing the opposite whatthey told you to do. Oh,
he's 12. But you know, the thingthat's great, and I forgot to
say this earlier, the thingthat's great about a child
protagonist is that they do havethat flexibility and
adaptability, not that theywouldn't need therapy and don't
need therapy. But I honestlybelieve that, were I in his

(37:31):
situation, like, if I had beenarrested and put in this like
dormitory, like the first night,I wouldn't have slept a wink
that first night, like he dealtwith it so much better, so much
better. A whipping like he dealtwith it so much better than I
would have as an adult. And Ithink it's that, and that's the

(37:51):
thing I love about childprotagonists. That's why, in
horror, I cannot stand it whenpeople gaslight children, oh
yeah. Like I often say, I don'tcare if my son was three, if he
said there's a noise in thecloset, there's a noise under
the bed, I'm going to be withthere with a flashlight and a
weapon. You know what I mean?Like I am listening. In fact, my

(38:15):
son and I did have an uncannyexperience once together, where
we both heard something weirdand but they are the most
sensitive. They are the mostembracing of reality when it
when it kind of hairs away fromwhat we expect. You know what I
mean? Like, adults are very goodwith routine and the expected,

(38:36):
but if it's not routine, if it'snot expected, it's the kids who
figure it out first. Like, ifyou give a five year old an
iPhone, they will figure it outfaster than your grandmother,
guaranteed. Yeah, because yourgrandmother has to compare every
other phone she's ever tried touse to this crazy looking
device. And a five year old islike, OH Phone, that's it. So I

(38:57):
was like, oh ghost, oh demon. Imean, you better listen. And
also the the absolute audaciousimagination and hope that kids
have, like, they believe infreaking Santa Claus, like,
yeah, they they can dream big.And Roberts, I think it's
Robert's big dreams, hisoptimism that was his superpower

(39:21):
in the reformatory, and I thinkthat's a big reason people feel
like it's a hopeful story,because it's not a story about a
kid who's just sort of cryinghimself to sleep every night.
This is a story about a kidmaking some plans.
Yeah, for sure,
and you do a good job of, like,bringing a community of

(39:44):
characters to the story too. Youkind of threw that whole Hero's
Journey thing out the window,right? Because while Robert's,
like, mostly the main character,you also have Gloria, you also
have their great well, she's ourgreat aunts or and then. Herself
like a godmother, yeah, yeah.You know, you have this whole
host of characters, and theykind of all work together,

(40:06):
right? To solve the problems.Yes,
yes. Well, I wanted Yes,community is also character in
the story, and I wanted thatcommunity to also be
interracial, because that was mymother's experience during the
civil rights movement in the60s, certainly, but also I would
imagine at times during herchildhood. I'm sure under

(40:29):
segregation in Florida duringher childhood, she didn't come
in contact with a lot of whitepeople. So it's very possible
that Gloria is coming in contactwith white people way more than
my mother did, but the whitepeople in their lives. One is an
employer, the social worker. Ireally, really, really, even
with the warden, who is the mostevil character I've probably

(40:52):
ever written, I didn't wantanybody to be cartoonish, and I
didn't want it to be like blackpeople good, white people bad,
you know, because that's not theworld either. So there were
allies who were black andenemies who were black. There
were allies who were white andenemies who were white. And I

(41:14):
think the main thing I wantedwhite readers to take away from
the book was to sort of toconsider at least some of the
the limitations of allyship inpractice, right? Because I have
examples of allyship, peoplegiving money, people giving
advice, even giving your phonenumber in this situation, is an

(41:36):
active ally. I mean, you know,you could look at some of these
characters and say, why didn'tthey do more? And to me, the
answer was because whitesupremacy and Jim Crow in the
1950s were upheld with violence.That's why, just like slavery
was upheld with violence, andviolence also means just today.

(42:00):
It means the same thing today itmeant in 1950 even if you're a
white person, if you are in asituation, say, like a black
lives matter, protest where youhave allied yourself with black
people, sometimes that rancorwill be as bad or in the south,
sometimes it was worse.Sometimes because it was like
they would look at black peoplelike, well, they don't know any

(42:22):
better, but you You're atraitor. I'm not saying that's
how it always was, but that wasthe thinking of because they
didn't even think black peoplehad intelligence enough to
realize that they needed toagitate for change. So it was
almost like, you know, a cow ora horse is is dissatisfied.
They're not getting enough need,but the white college students
coming in, I'm going to teachy'all a lesson. And we see that

(42:46):
same thing today with HeatherHeyer and her getting run down
during a Black Lives Matterprotest. You know, on the one
hand, white womanhood issupposed to be the thing
everyone is is protecting, butnot if you're a Black Lives
Matter protester and and so thatwas, yeah, there's even the
allies, whether they're queerand they're hiding or they're

(43:08):
they have money and influence,or they're just trying to keep
their heads down because theirown families are in danger. I
wanted to show examples ofallyship, but also the
limitations of allyship when setagainst such a violent
background.
Yeah, I love all of that. Idefinitely had some reactions to
that. And I really didappreciate that, the integration

(43:31):
between the white people and theblack folks, and how that all
worked together. You know what?I mean, it just reading your
book, I actively sat there andthought about some of that
stuff, you know,
so you did a good job. I think.Thank
you. That's what I really wantedto to like, there was one little
section I ended up cutting outof the book because I had a

(43:54):
scene where, where the socialworker has has taken an action.
I'm not going to give too muchaway. It's a small action in the
scheme of things, but actuallyit's a big action, and it's a
catalyst for a lot of thingsthat will happen later. And
after he does that action, I hadhim sitting in his office like
gathering his courage, by God,I'm not going to stand here and
be paralyzed with fear. I'mgoing to make a difference. And

(44:15):
then the whole rest of the bookpassed, and I never came back to
him. I'm like, Well, I can'thave him making this huge
proclamation for action, andthen he doesn't ever do it. So I
actually cut it out because itwasn't needed and he had already
done his little thing, but alsoit was not going to be his
story. And that was the onething about this that I fought

(44:36):
at every turn. You know, peoplewhen we were developing it for
TV, as I was for about threeyears, we were like, thinking
about, like, do we create a rolefor the father and make him a
bigger character to track anactor to the role, which, you
know, makes sense on a on a TVsale level, but on a story
level? This was always supposedto be Robert and Gloria. These

(44:56):
two siblings are figuring itout, like in young adult
fiction, you. Yeah, it's likethe kids are the point. The kids
are the catalyst for change. Thekids are the ones who make all
the most important decisions.And that was really important to
me.
I'm really interested in this,partially because one of the
things I've become aware of inrecent years is how much horror

(45:18):
fiction showcases socialproblems. And I have a question
in there somewhere, and I'm justnot quite sure with it.
Well, I'll finish your thoughtfor you. Doc, yeah, but I mean,
I what you're saying. I mean,horror is such a powerful way to
talk about social problems. AndI mean done right, you know, and

(45:41):
there is a distinction. I reallydo feel we went through a stage,
especially right after get out,when everyone was scrambling to
try to come up with theirversion of that story and use
horror as a way to talk aboutsocial issues, where we saw,
especially in black horror, someimages of lynching is horror.
And I'm not going to getspecific. I have some I have

(46:04):
some projects of mine, but I'mnot going to get specific. And
that, to me, I think, ismissing, missing an important
point, which is that people whoare concerned about these
things, people who've had thishappen in their family history,
like I was at a screening forhorona in Indianapolis last
year, and in that briefscreening, there was a flash of

(46:25):
real life, a real life inchinglynching, rather a photograph of
a real life lynching. And itjust flashes across the screen
very briefly. But one of thepanelists on the stage with me
said, you know, I just want tomention that, that that man who
was being lynched, he was in myfamily. Oh, God. So for people
who have either a very visceraland personal relationship with
that history or it's just kindof been passed down generation

(46:48):
by generation, you know, not thespecific stories, but you feel
the trauma in the air, we don'twant lynching as horror to be re
traumatized. We want somethingthat helps us leech out the
trauma from that. So you do itthrough the looking glass. You
do it sideways, you know? Whichis why get out works so well,

(47:11):
because this science fictionbody snatching operation is not
real. Okay? Nobody is like, Oh,my God, that happened. My
grandmother, no, that is notreal. So the not real, the not
real, is what gives us the roomto absorb the Healing Power of

(47:32):
Feeling seen like having anexperience validated. I think
that's why my late mother lovedher. She was a civil rights
activist, and I used to think itwas a bug, that she loved
horror, but it's a feature. It'sa feature. Yes, of course, she
loved horror. Her childhood wasa horror, her young adulthood
was a horror. So of course,watching people stand up to

(47:55):
demons and monsters, or evenmaybe she was identifying with
the Frankenstein monster, right?Or whatever. It can be healing,
but it has to be done with withcare. And I really feel like too
many newer artists who aretrying to jump into the horror
game missed the point. I don'twant to be re traumatized. I

(48:19):
want to be healed.
Yeah, clearly, you know,influencing the world out there
towards the better, right, isimportant to you. It's been
important to your family back tocivil rights, right? How do you
feel fiction can help influencethe world in a you know, in that
direction?

(48:39):
That's a great question. Andthat was my question, because
growing up, raised by a civilrights attorney and a mother who
is a civil rights activist, whowas in my history books and my
index pages, you know, when Iwas in college, I think it, it
was daunting to me to becauseboth of my sisters went to law
school. By the way, I was theonly one who didn't go to law

(48:59):
school, and I really kind offelt like a loser in that sense,
you know, like I wanted to, I'vealways wanted to be a writer. I
was writing when I was four, andI even asked my mother, on one
level, what was it a waste oftime? And I remember her telling
me that the NAACP invested a lotof resources into the Beverly
Hills Hollywood branch in the1960s because they understood

(49:21):
the power of representation. AndI was like, Oh, thank God,
because, yeah, I want torepresent that. I don't want to
represent like, like yourepresent, or the way my dad
represents. But throughstorytelling, which is a little
more dicey, is kind of a sidedoor you there's no literal call
to action in the reformatory,although one reviewer said it
read like a call to action, andthat means it's up to every

(49:46):
individual reader or viewer todecide what their call to action
is, and they may not even knowthat it's directly related to
that thing they just wrote orread or saw. It's just my
mindset has been affected. Butwhat. But by what I've
experienced here. So the nexttime I hear a story about a

(50:06):
police officer killing someone,or the next time I hear a story
about a young person since ajuvenile hall over some
bullshit, I might write aletter, I might make a phone
call, I might join Big Brothers,Big Sisters. I you know, it's so
I believe it can have a true andlasting impact, because
actually, the book or the workwill outlast you. Hopefully it

(50:30):
will outlive you people you willnever meet, people who will be
reading it after you're gonewill still be hopefully changed
by it and thereby find their ownway to engage with creating
change. And you know, I'll justsay this knowing my parents,
generation of activists,sometimes that change is just in

(50:52):
your own house, because thatgeneration sacrificed their
families for the movement, notmy parents, because my mother
basically, really stepped backfrom a lot of her more public
activism when she had kids, andshe became an activist at the
PTA meetings and an activistwith the teacher meetings. And
that is a form of change too.When we eliminate trauma in our

(51:14):
own households, or at leastminimize it, you can't eliminate
but when you minimize trauma inour own households, we are
creating a better world, as muchas maybe sometimes more so than
people who are very vocally outin the world trying to create
change. There's room foreverybody. Change looks many
different ways. And that wasanother lesson from the Civil

(51:36):
Rights era. You know, there werepeople like my mother getting
arrested in tear gas, and therewere people like the white
banker who were sneaking afterhours to hand them an envelope
of money. And both of thosethings are very important. Wow.
I love so much of what you saidthere. Unfortunately, we are
coming up on time, so we gotta,we gotta hit the the end of the
interview questions. Man, youjust said so much stuff there. I

(51:59):
love when you said minimizingtrauma is a form of activism
that actually means a lot to mepersonally, so I really
appreciate that. So what isbringing you hope right now?
Well, the political landscape islooking a lot brighter than it
did a few weeks ago. So I hadn'trealized the degree to which I

(52:20):
was kind of clenched up and hadmy head in the sand, like, well,
we'll figure it out. We'll doit, we'll do it, we'll do it.
And now it's, it's more like, ohmy. People are like, Was this
what it was like under Kennedy,or when Kennedy was running? And
I'm like, Okay, let's not getcarried away. I don't know what
it was like when you know theywas running, but it reminds me a
lot of 2008 I'll tell you that.And I'm very, very excited for

(52:43):
younger voters, because, youknow, I'm a, I'm a lifelong
Democrat, and of course, I'mthrilled with this ticket of
Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, butI don't think I will ever again
feel what I felt the first timeI saw Bill Clinton play a
saxophone on Arsenio, and Ithought, oh my god, he gets it.

(53:05):
You know what I mean? Or when Isaw Barack Obama make his red
states and blue state speech atthe Democratic National
Convention for Kerry, and thenthe night he won Iowa, I will I
mean that Iowa like that was thenight when Barack Obama won
Iowa. That was when I realized,Oh, my God, he could do I'm

(53:26):
getting goosebumps. Just thinkabout it, yeah? And, you know,
time passes, and I don't know ifI'm in a position to fall in
love with politicians the way Idid when I was younger. Yeah,
but I mean, this is as close asit gets for me right now. I
could be, you know, I'm gonna Iwoke up in tears over a vice

(53:47):
presidential pick. When I wokeup in tears over a vice
presidential pick because Irealized, Oh, my God, they're
serious about winning. Yeah,they're serious about winning.
Yeah, and, and that moved me totears, because that was when I
could let the fear in. That waswhat I could let the fear. I

(54:08):
mean, not that anything isguaranteed, but, you know, I
honestly, I don't think there'sanything more important, whether
you're an artist or whoever youare, than making sure that we
don't Usher fascism into theWhite House this year. Yes,
yeah, and that means winningthis election. And, you know,
people feel like they can'tvote, well, then do something
else. Be get your all yourfriends to vote. Because, yeah,

(54:29):
this is not a drill. This is notabout like an old, corrupt
criminal rapist with dementia.This is about an entire system
that is trying to ride in on himlike is basically almost his,
his remains at this point,frankly, and that system is has

(54:54):
shown his hand what it's willingto do. And we have to expect
that it is more organized and.Is willing to do more. Yeah. So
what gives me hope is that youngpeople are excited and engaged
in this election in the way theywere not three weeks ago. And
thank God for it.
You know, as soon as the pickwas announced, I have a group
chat with some of my friends,and they were all talking about

(55:14):
it, and I'm like, Thank Godthems are not shooting
themselves in the foot again.Because I feel like every other
time they're just like, there'smy foot.
Bam, okay, the most cynicaldecision, you know, the most
like, how about you do what?Like people are like, screaming
for you to do your base wants,you know what I mean, like, do
that to listen to. And I thinkfor a lot of people, like

(55:38):
hearing walls make the the jokeabout the couch, you know, I was
telling Steve about this. And,no, I don't think JD walls had,
I mean, I'm sorry, I don't thinkJD Vance had sex with a couch.
Okay, but it's funny. Andconsidering the kind of, like,
whole scale trolling that thatthis party has been doing
against us, birtherism, thecoup, you know? I mean, come on,

(56:01):
it's a little but the fact thathe made the joke, there are a
lot of Gen Z ers out there,because that's an internet meme,
yeah, so for him to make aninternet meme a part of his
first speech to the country thatis signaling them like that was
Bill Clinton on the saxophone,he gets us, and that first you
feel seen by the politicalstructure that is incredible.

(56:27):
There's no feeling like it likeyou really feel like, oh my god,
we're here. We finally made it.We can have a role in changing
this country. And yeah, so I'mjust loving the excitement from
the youth.
Yeah, me too. I think it'd be avery exciting time. If Kamala
Harris gets in, it'll just beabsolutely,
oh yeah. I mean, I'm talking mybig talk now, but I would

(56:49):
probably be like crying like ababy on election night.
Totally fair. Totally fair. Ithink, I
think a lot of people will be,even if it's not outwardly, you
know you'll be internally cryingwith relief,
yeah, just sobbing with relief.Like, thank you, USA. You've got
your issues. There's a lot ofwork to do, but at least we were

(57:13):
able to finally figure out howto put a stop to this particular
form of menace. Yeah, yeah. Ihope, I mean, it ain't over till
it's over. Yeah,
yeah. Knock on. Totally,totally. So are there any
upcoming projects that you wantto talk
about? Well, I am busily workingon my next novel, which I

(57:37):
believe is not till 2026 calledBear Creek Lodge. I'm part of a
project called the horizonexperiment, which is comics. And
I've written an upcoming comiccalled Moon dogs, which I
believe goes on sale later thisyear, so people can check that
out. We did another graphicnovel, The keeper, that was
adapted from a screenplay,actually, but I'm actually

(57:57):
trying to delve a little bit,you know, I get my fingertips
into comics and some shortstories coming up. I just wrote
one for uncanny I'm reallyexcited about called a stranger
knocks. So hopefully that'll beout soon.
Awesome, nice, awesome. Andthen, where can everyone find
you? Online. I
am literally everywhere. WhenTwitter blew up, I joined I'm

(58:19):
still there, by the way, and Irefuse to call it x, so I'm
still there. I always use myreal name at tananarive due so I
am at tananari. Do I even jointick tock? I mean, all of them,
blue sky threads, Instagram andmy website is tananarive.com and
also, people can join my mailinglist at tananarive list.com it's

(58:40):
like banana Reeve or IV eatlist.com which has links to
weekly zooms. I mean, I don'tthink enough people know that
Steve and I do week free weeklyzooms, where we just talk to
people about balanced lifestyleand writing. So come check us
out on our weekly Saturdayzooms. Join my list. It's an
honoree list.com

(59:01):
All right, well, that'severything for me. Cat, do you
have anything else? No,
it's just, but it's been justabsolutely a delight having you
on. Oh, this has been
a great conversation. I reallyappreciated the questions and
the company. So thank you verymuch. All
right, and that was ourinterview with tanarave. Due

(59:22):
thoughts. Cat, that was amazing.Yes, yes. I just, I love
everything that she had to say.I connected with so many of the
things that she had to say. Andalso she was super easy to
interview. I feel like we didn'treally have to work
very hard. No, no, she was,she's, she's been interviewing
for a long time she knows herstuff. Yeah, yes,

(59:43):
very clearly. And I appreciatethat. I love that, you know,
because I get, I get worriedabout it sometimes, you know,
with this, with this persondoesn't talk enough, with the
quiet, we get those every nowand then, not ton, but every now
and then, you know, we
do. It's sort of like whenyou're. Teaching, like, I've had
this happen, and you get kind oflike half, get all the way

(01:00:04):
through your material, andyou're like, oh shit, I still
have X number of minutes to go.Ah, yes,
yes, I have totally got there.And also she said, I don't think
JD Vance had sex with his couch,which I thought was hilarious,
yes. So she said that here,everyone just remember that it's

(01:00:24):
good to have these thingsconfirmed. Yes, yes, yes,
absolutely. Oh my gosh. So whatare you reading right now?
Anything fun? Oh, yeah,
I just finished John wiswell'sSomeone you can build a nest in,
which is just wonderful. And I'mabout a third of a way into a YA

(01:00:45):
book called Empire wars by akind of Phoenix, which is kind
of like a fantasy Hunger Gamesin some ways. Oh,
okay, cool, cool, cool. Whatabout you? Hmm, let's see. I'm
in the middle of a book of shortstories called one eye opened in
the other place, by Christynogle. Have you ever read any of

(01:01:05):
her stuff? No, oh, boy,definitely weird, weird horror,
weird fiction, whatever you wantto call it. This is the second
collection. No, wait, let methink about that. Yeah. No, this
is the third in a set of threecollections done by flame tree
press. I reviewed the secondone. I'll be reviewing this one

(01:01:30):
too, and the second one was morescience fiction oriented. And,
man, I had no idea what toexpect. And then I was like, oh
my god, this is wild. Oh,awesome. Yeah, yeah, just like,
totally weird bizarro kind ofstuff, I mean. And now that
bizarro is kind of like thissub, sub category, I don't want
to say, like, not, well, some ofher stuff, I might actually
categorize there, but justweird, bizarre stuff that

(01:01:52):
happens, and you're just tryingto figure it out the whole time
you're reading, like, okay,okay, what now, you know, and
very unsettling, you know,horror kind of stuff, you know,
yeah. And then I just startedearlier today, the day and night
books of Mardu Fox by NiecyShaw,

(01:02:13):
Oh, I haven't read those yet, soI'm sure you're enjoying them.
Yeah, yeah. So it's like,
so far, it is based on JackKerouac. In a couple of Jack
Kerouac's books, he has acharacter named Mardu Fox, and
this is from Mardu Fox's pointof view. Nice. And it's

(01:02:35):
definitely like, well, I can'teven really tell you. I mean,
they jump into, like, thefantasy aspects pretty quick.
But the the one I have is it's anovella, and it's even got,
like, some hand drawings in itand stuff, because it's written
by like, a 10 year old, at leastat the part that I'm at right
now. She's 10, and it's like adiary kind of but it's a it's

(01:02:57):
been interesting. It's beenweird so far. And, you know. And
this is put out by Rosarianpress, which is Bill Campbell.
And I generally Bill Campbell,yeah, I usually love the stuff
that he does. I don't often gettime to to review all of it, or
even a lot of it, but I try whenI can, and I always love the

(01:03:17):
stuff that bill is doing. So I'ma big Jack Kerouac fan, or at
least I was when I was in my20s, you know, which, I think
that's like the age for JackKerouac, right? Oh, yeah. So the
second I found out that, youknow, you see, Shaw did, like a
fantasy based on Jack Kerouac, Iwas like, Okay, I have to read
that. Yeah, I don't know how youcould have resisted it, yeah,

(01:03:40):
yeah, exactly. I have to pushaside everything else for this,
but so that's what I'm readingright now. Awesome. Yeah, yeah,
good stuff. Good stuff. So Ithink that's it for today.
That's it. Well, it has beendelightful. Yes, it is always so
much fun to come on andinterview such interesting
people.
It is it is we? We've beengetting so lucky lately, getting

(01:04:03):
so many great people on here.It's been so fun. We have we So
thanks to everybody forlistening. Take care, folks. We
are bringing hope to you oneepisode at a time.
You If this goes on, don'tpanic. Is edited by Alan Bailey

(01:04:26):
and produced by Ken Schrader.Our theme music is by Father
flamethrower. Additional musicis by Christopher snyderowski,
and outro music by sable Aradia,Intro by Dave Robinson. A
special thanks to our guest,Tanana, Reeve du thanks for
supporting us, and we'll see youagain soon, letting.

(01:05:00):
Ego I believe in.