March 28, 2025 • 49 mins
Episode Overview
In this episode, John Kitchens is joined by Jay Kinder and Andrew Lafountain for a no-holds-barred deep dive into what’s happening right now in the real estate industry—and where it’s all heading. From Rocket’s acquisition of Redfin to leadership shifts at top brokerages, the guys unpack the chaos, opportunities, and strategy agents need to understand if they want to stay ahead in 2025 and beyond.
This episode is part market analysis, part future forecasting, and 100% real talk from top industry leaders who’ve seen it all—and are still leading from the front.
Key Topics Covered
Redfin, Rocket & the Race to the Bottom
-
Why Rocket acquired Redfin—and what they’re really after (hint: not the agents).
-
Redfin’s failed bet on low-fee, low-skill agent models.
-
Why consumers ultimately don’t want cheap—they want value.
-
What this move signals about the future of real estate portals and tech platforms.
The Legacy Brokerage Shakeup
-
Why franchise models (KW, Anywhere, Berkshire) are struggling to evolve.
-
Lawsuits, territorial issues, and brand dilution.
-
The difference between iconic brands and actual value propositions in today’s market.
-
Why the agent—not the company—is the brand now.
Cloud-Based Brokerages: Who’s Winning & Why
-
How eXp navigated 20K–80K agent growth profitably—a feat unmatched in the industry.
-
The co-sponsorship game-changer and what it unlocks for agent partnerships.
-
Why most “me-too” cloud brokerages will fail (and some already are).
-
What sets eXp’s leadership apart: Leo Pareja and Glenn Sanford’s agility, vision, and agent-first focus.
Real’s Leadership Shift & What It Reveals
-
The abrupt exit of Sharran Srivatsaa from day-to-day operations.
-
Why losing a charismatic visionary can signal deeper cracks.
-
Why copycat models without culture or core values can’t scale sustainably.
-
The hard truth: Without operational excellence, fast growth leads to faster breakdowns.
Actionable Takeaways
-
Don’t be seduced by legacy brands—they don’t control the customer experience you do.
-
As a cloud brokerage, operational excellence at scale is the new battleground.
-
Align yourself with a platform that evolves fast, values agents, and puts your growth first.
-
Pay attention to leadership exits—it's often a signal of turbulence ahead.
-
If you’ve been sitting on the sidelines, now is the time to move—before the next wave explodes.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Seven figure success starts whenyou start thinking like a CEO.
Welcome to the John Kitchens Coach podcastexperience as your host, John Kitchens.
Get ready to think bigger andtransform your business into
a path to lasting freedom.
Andrew, the fountain inthe house with us today.
I'm Jay.
Welcome.
(00:20):
Thanks guys.
Appreciate you man.
We do have a lot to jump into.
Uh, should we change the name of thepodcast today to one Big Dumpster Fire?
Oh man.
You know, we can, we can kind ofcannonball anywhere we want to
go, but I, it was interesting.
So, um, del Pri, which, you know, Jay,you turned me on to, to Mike Re's,
(00:44):
um, information, his newsletter comesout and he's always got just, just
some, just fire information in there.
Just a lot of great stuff.
And last week he, his newsletterwas about the information of Rocket
acquiring, um, acquiring Redfin.
And he breaks down a lot of thingsin there and things that, that he
(01:06):
mentions and talks about somethingthat all of us have been chasing.
You know, especially, you know, inconversations when, when teams were
starting to become a thing and, andreally that was kind of the direction
and, and where things that were at inthe industry and all of our conversation
was always around how do we controlthe consumer experience, right?
(01:26):
The holy grail.
Mm-hmm.
To be able to be a one stop shop.
And that's really what.
His newsletter was kind of breakingdown and showing and where all
the moves that are being made.
Where is the direction where,where are things going?
Who's doing what?
Redfin.
You know, um, you know, obviously withRocket making the move with Redfin, then
(01:46):
you hear, you know, chatters of what'sCompass gonna do, what's Berkshire doing?
Um, and then you start to start tothink about and start playing some, Hmm.
What if scenarios here, you know,who's gonna be navigating what,
where, where are things going?
So I, I would love to just, let'sjust jump in right there because
we're starting to see some moves.
It's things that we've been talking aboutfor years and it's really starting to
(02:08):
play out, you know, legacy, legacy brands.
Obviously what, what Gary did with,you know, the money and it's just
interesting to see and navigatinginto the second half of the decade.
New, you know, um, new administration.
It's just really wild.
What's what's happening right nowin, in, in, just on, on the planet,
(02:29):
but real estate, um, you know,business and real estate in general.
I'd love to get y'all's take justkind of as we're starting to see
people starting to make some moves.
Yeah, I have some, I have some opinions.
I should probably start witha, a full legal disclosure.
These are my opinions, not the opinionsof any of, of exp or any of our
affiliates, um, affiliated companies.
But yeah, no, I mean, I've always beenfascinated with, with Glen Kelman,
(02:51):
like that dude, I mean, he rode thattrain as long and as hard as he could
ride that train the race to the bottom,you know, trying to be the cheapest.
Um, you know, the consumerwants, you know, they don't want.
The, the lowest.
I think it's just proof.
First of all, let's justcall a spade a spade.
That sell was not a win.
It was basically sold for parts, whichis what he said he didn't wanna do.
(03:13):
They bought that for the technology.
That's, that's the move.
I, they'll probably donothing with the real estate.
It was just a bad model.
Um, you know, they, they werehere in, in the Frisco market.
Just, you know, they did a lot of volume.
They just never made money.
I mean, it, it never, you know, they,they tried to go after the listing
side at one point, didn't work.
They were doing billboards all over, allover the cities they were in, didn't work.
(03:34):
It's just, uh, you know, there, there'salways gonna be a, a certain number of
consumers, you know, there's always gonnabe somebody that'll buy, you know, the
four tires for a hundred bucks, right?
Like, there's always someone that wantsthe cheapest, but that's just not.
You know, that's not, it's asegment of the market that's
always existed, always will exist.
I just wouldn't try to build a businessaround that, trying to be the cheapest.
Um, so yeah, so seeing, seeingthat didn't really shock me.
(03:55):
I thought it was a smart move byRocket because they had, you know,
that what they did do right at Redfinwas they built some badass tech.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, you know, now they're in theportal game and they're, you know, a,
a legitimate competitor, uh, in thespace as it, as it relates to that.
Um, so yeah.
Interesting.
You know, not, not super shocking.
Interesting.
Not a win.
(04:15):
That dude, you know, hewas very interesting.
If you've ever watched him speak, Imean, he's just dead set that this
is what the consumer wants and theyspent billions of dollars trying to
prove that and were proved wrong.
So yeah, they actually didthe opposite of everything.
We've, we've been, you know,taught and learned about how
to build a successful business.
(04:36):
You know, they, number one, uh, they took,they took the cheaper route, went after
the consumer that was looking for the.
To save a buck and also hired thelowest skilled, um, labor to do it.
Which, which is agents that, you know,it's, it's arguable to say that the
highest talent in our business, they'renot in that, the discount model, they're,
(05:00):
they're charging a higher fee because theycan, they can command it because they're,
they're providing a level of expertise.
That's beyond your average agent.
Right?
So, you know, Glen took the routeof going and dipping below that.
And I'm not saying that all redRedfin agents are bad or low skilled.
All's I'm saying is that the, the,the highest talent among agents
(05:24):
is not going to go working, youknow, working for a flat salary fee
where they have to be in meetings.
And, um, actually a Redfin agent, localto us over here recently came over.
And this was actually about sixmonths ago and six months ago.
He was saying that Redfin, this isbefore any talks of them being acquired,
was actually changing their model froma, from a, um, a salaried position
(05:48):
agent to a full commissioned agent.
And he's like, but they're still gonnaexpect me to do all the same things, all
the same meetings, be it this, be it thatrun around like a, like a W2 employee.
So he's like, I'm out, I'm out.
Before that happens.
So, um, you know, it's, it's, it'sinteresting that they, they survived
as long as they did and grew, butthey, it was because of the tech.
(06:09):
And like you had said, Jay,they sold it for parts.
You didn't wanna sell it for parts.
I would have to believe.
Do you guys know what the highestvaluation that Redfin ever hit was?
It was, it was, I wannasay it was 10 billion.
10 billion, yeah.
Sold for 1.7 billion.
All stock.
Yeah, I have to believe that'sa, that's, that's a loss.
(06:30):
That's an l. That's not, that's an lThat's not what Glen intended when, you
know, when he was starting and growingand trying to scale that business.
So right.
Wish, wish him best of luck.
Hope, uh, hope, hope he's gotenough to, you know, retire and, and
live a good life off of whatever.
But he's got stock, he'sgotta cash that stock in.
Um, it's not what he wanted.
(06:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I talked to a Redfin agent a few weeksback and they sound pretty nervous
about what was, what they thought mighthave been changing, and, and I wasn't
sure what they were gonna do either.
Um, like you guys said, I, I would rathermuch, the real estate industry is, is the
best industry out there that you can, youcan get paid what you're worth, right?
Mm-hmm.
And if you provide the value to theclient and the customer, um, why would
(07:15):
you wanna, in my opinion, you know,get paid a small salary and, and.
When you can just provide really,really, really good value and
get paid, you know, what you'reworth and provide for your day.
Right?
What are you, what, what are wethinking or seeing kind of as, as
possible next, next moves, right?
(07:36):
Just kind of from a, a thoughtexperiment, just kind of
thinking through things because.
Obviously, you know, we touched,touched on, you know, the
move that Gary made with kw.
So what, what are the legacy brands?
What, what are their moves to beable to, I mean, before they stay
alive, there's still, you know, the,you know, I, I think this is funny.
(08:00):
You know, it is funny, yo.
The, the anywhere brand, whichis basically, in my opinion, like
that's, you should be anywhere.
But at one of those brands, um, they're,they're all locked into this model.
So is kw.
They're locked into a franchise model.
Even Gary tried to go andcreate virtual brokerage.
And then lawsuits came up and, youknow, there's, you know, you can't,
you can't sell a virtual, you know,you can't have an agent go to a
(08:23):
virtual Keller Williams if you solda franchise in that same territory.
So, so Gary's been trying to compete withus since the 28, was it the 2018 vision
speech where he mentioned exp 21 times.
He was our number one recruiterat exp that year because we only
had 8,000 agents and nobody evenknew who, nobody knew who we were.
We were not even on the mapyet, but we were making noise.
(08:46):
And, uh, he put us on the map and,and he knew that, that it was gonna be
difficult, but he knew if he couldn'tcompete with revenue share and our model
that, that they were dead in the water.
And so I, when I see.
You know, it's not good orbad, it just is what it is.
If you sold your, your, you know,private company that you built up
for all these years, in the worstmarket we've seen since 1995, that's
(09:10):
a deal you wouldn't normally do.
You would wait five years until themarket's better and the numbers are up
unless you believe that your agent countis at the highest it's ever gonna be.
And, and that you, you realize you're,you're not really gonna be able to compete
in the new, you know, the new marketplaceof being cloud-based brokerages.
So, you know, that's, you know, that tome, they're all kinda locked in to, you
(09:31):
know, their models and, um, you know,their agent accounts are suffering.
You can look across all these,all these legacy brands, and
they're all losing agents.
Um, you largely because the value propshigher at, you know, at exp and, and, and
some of our competitors that are in thespace, it was cloud-based, so, so yeah.
I don't know what they do.
You know, it, you know, it'slike organizing chairs on
the Titanic, in my opinion.
(09:52):
I, I wouldn't, you know, I, Iwouldn't wanna, I wouldn't wanna
be be, you know, at the helm ofone of those companies for sure.
What's what's funny is, I was listeningto a podcast, I think you, you
listened to the same podcast, Jay.
We're not gonna mention names.
Um, but it was, it was veryinteresting listening to a gentleman
who, um, was, was kind of defendingthese legacy brands, namely.
(10:14):
Um, you know, kind of BerkshireHathaway Home Services, which I don't
know if you would call it a legacybrand, but they're a legacy model.
It's an iconic brand for sure.
It's, it's an iconic brand, but I'mtalking about the real estate sector
of it, home services specifically,and there's so many different layers
to all the different franchisesand who owns what and, and it's
(10:35):
so complex and so complicated.
The funny part about the, the, the commentthat was made on the podcast is that.
He was insinuating that, that the,the new, the cloud base, that usually
typically has a leadership group at thetop or one leader that drives things such
as a Glenn or a Leo or a a, you know,Sharon, which I know we're gonna talk
(10:58):
about that, that's a weakness to us.
That, that these legacy brands thathave the franchises with many leaders
that you don't hear about, that'stheir strength and he couldn't even
describe the value proposition ofBerkshire since when Berkshire Hathaway.
I guess kind of acquired all thecredentials and a lot of my friends
(11:19):
that were at Prudential were acquiredand they were all excited about it.
They were excited about havingBerkshire Hathaway and their sign.
I thought to myself, you know, 50% ofAmericans do not own stock and don't
even have any kind of inclinationof what Berkshire Hathaway, why
there's significance to that 50%.
Mm-hmm.
Other 50% know, the other 50% do not know.
(11:39):
I'm not seeing how that'sa competitive advantage.
Century 21.
Has a bigger brand name, even thoughthey're archaic at this point.
They have a bigger brand name whenit comes to like Kleenex on tissues
right than than Berkshire Hathaway.
Home Services does.
They weren't able, not one person wasable, even still to this day, to explain
(12:00):
to me what is your competitive advantage?
Yeah.
Explain to me in 30, which isironic why it's ironic agent to grow
their business on your platform.
They couldn't explain it.
Right.
It's ironic because, becauseBerkshire Hathaway, and one of the
things Warren Buffett says thatis the, one of the first things he
looks at in buying any company is.
Th they're durable, competitiveadvantage in the marketplace.
(12:20):
That's one of the mainthings that he looks at.
And so to hear, and you know, and Ididn't realize this, but they, they
picked up that deal with Prudential.
The real estate wasn't the, the focus.
That was something that, that they camewith it, it wasn't the focus of the deal.
And so they really probably didn'twant to get in the real estate space.
They just ended up in the real estatespace when they bought Prudential.
Um, and so, you know, but yeah, I mean,and, and this all comes down to what
(12:43):
we've talked about for years, which iswho manages the cu customer experience.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
The, the, the only value in a brandis if, if you actually control and
manage the customer experience.
And no real estate company otherthan Redfin who tried to do it
for less, which ironically theydidn't have any competition 'cause
nobody wanted to compete with that.
Um, you know, it's difficult to beprofitable in that space as it is, but
(13:07):
to control the consumer experience.
And we, we, you know, we, we did attemptto try to do it as best as it could be
done, um, in our own marketplace andcontrolling the consumer experience.
But it's like Jay-Z says,I'm not a businessman.
I am the business man.
The real estate agent is the brand.
And that's what exp gets.
It's, it's brokered by exp.
(13:27):
You can buy Dell, you can buyMicrosoft, you're powered by exp. And
that's that by Intel in that example.
And so.
These brands don't bring any valueto the table because you could go
to any one of those brands, oursincluded, and have a good experience
or a bad experience, right?
Because the agent controls the experienceand so there is no value in the brand.
And so, and if there is, if there,maybe they lock down some, some
(13:50):
referral business or some, youknow, some, you know, a business
unit that they, that they control.
What are they doing?
They're, they're monetizing thatthrough the agent on a 40% referral fee.
So it's not where you want to buildyour business, that's for sure.
As an agent, and, and I think mostagents, most agents I talk to, even the,
even the ones that haven't been doingit that long, realize that, yeah, I
ain't getting anything from the company.
You know, I don't, how many deals did youclose last year that came from your brand?
(14:13):
Right.
Some of the newer ones may say, well,yeah, I use the brand when I'm explaining
my value proposition as part of that.
But as soon as you realize that youdon't need that, you're, you're, you're
going to, wherever you have the, the,what is the best platform for you
to build your business, what createsthe best, what's the best vehicle for
you to get to your financial goals?
That's what agents are looking for.
(14:34):
And you know, I think that, you know,the last 10 years, if you look at how
much money came in trying to disrupt.
The real estate agent and replace them.
I mean, Zillow put more money into itthan anybody, and they said, forget it.
We'll just do flex and we're gonnagive leads to the best agents in
every marketplace, and that's howwe're gonna monetize this thing.
It's very difficult to control,you know, the entire experience
(14:56):
and, and not have a real, a greatreal estate agent in the middle.
And so.
Um, you know, I think, you know,there's less money going after replacing
the real estate agent at this point.
You know, when you look at thenew companies that are popping
up, where did Purple Bricks go?
I don't see them anywhere.
They came in, they said, nah,we don't want no part of this.
They left the industry.
So it, it is fascinatingto watch, but these legacy
brands are, are in a bad spot.
(15:17):
They don't control the brand.
They don't control the experience.
And so the company that agents aregonna gravitate to are where, where is
the opportunity the biggest for them.
Yeah, they all had their time, right?
I mean, Sears and, and Kmart,they all had their time.
But, um, things have changed.
And if you're not changing with,uh, with what's going on around
(15:37):
you, you're gonna be in trouble.
Right.
So, no, Andre, I, I, I love what yousaid right there and just kind of
thinking through more kind of, you know,who's, who's gonna make the next moves.
Right?
And they may just not even touchthe legacy stuff that might they,
they all might just sunset, right?
As the agents.
Die off and, and thatjust might be their path.
(15:58):
But you look at all the, the cloud-basedmodels, um, that are out there.
I mean, what are a couple dozennow, um, that are of, of that model?
What are their plans?
Like where, where do they,how, how do they compete?
How do they stay relevant?
I mean.
You, you, you can't runon fumes for very long.
(16:18):
You can't give away everything for free.
And so like what are we, obviouslywe have our crystal balls out here.
What are we anticipating, kind oflooking as, as moves are being made,
things are shifting around, youknow, over the next 3, 4, 5 years.
I, I'm really glad, I'm really gladI'm at exp. I think the opportunity
(16:40):
in front of exp is the biggestof, of all, of all companies.
Um, and we can get into why, youknow, the runway is so cleared.
The path has been cleared for us,um, and, and the competitors in
our space in terms of cloud-based.
But yeah, it, it's, I don't see any otheropportunity other than, than exp being.
Twice as big as it is now.
(17:01):
Maybe three times asbig as it is right now.
Yeah.
When, when you talk about, we weretalking about brand and, and you
know, arguably re max has built asuper strong, you know, branding name.
I don't know too many people if yousaid the word re max, they're not,
they're not gonna connect that to,you know, a, a real estate brokerage.
Same thing with Century 21.
(17:22):
What I find is interesting is that,as you alluded to earlier, Jay.
You know, uh, back when I was with re max,they, they, you know, I think they got up
to about 110 agents somewhere in thousand.
Yeah.
We, it was like 1 10, 1 27.
One 10.
Yeah.
Um, they're under 60,000 agents.
They're at 58,000 agents.
(17:42):
That's a huge dip.
50%, um, you know, in thehole on, on aging count.
I don't know what that equatesto with, with, uh, franchises.
I, I would not want to be aRem Max franchise salesperson.
Well, you never would wannaown a Rem Max franchise because
you were just a landlord.
So they used to be the cheapest.
They were the, that's where you went.
(18:03):
If you were, you know, a top dog,you went to REM Max, and they, you
know, they carved out that space.
But, and as long as you had a lot ofagents, you know, you, you, you know,
you could make a little bit of money.
But what you find right now ismost of these re max brokers
don't have enough agents.
So what are they doing?
They're in production.
So they're making a little bit of deskrent and now these agents that are
at REM Max are like, man, I could goover to exp and pay less of what I'm
(18:25):
paying in fees and I need this office.
I don't even go in here anyways.
So tremendous like turmoil at re max.
I mean, and of course, you know,they came out with this Super Bowl
move, you know, at, you know, thisyear at their convention they.
They changed their logo again, you know.
Wow.
I mean, you know, I'm sure everybodywas super excited and pumped about that.
(18:46):
Like, you know, that's,you know, it's laughing.
That was the only, that was theonly thing they had going for
'em was that Legacy balloon.
And, you know, I like it or not,you know, it's recognizable.
And now it's not recognizable.
No.
The balloon, they shrunk it andthey put the big words remix there.
Yeah.
Um, man, it, I, I heard someoneon stage in Cabo, by the way.
(19:09):
What a great, great event.
Wow.
Cheer cheers to, to Brent andJames Group and Brent Gove,
another amazing event in Cabo.
But someone was up on stage andI can't remember if it was V or
who it was, but I had an epiphanybecause it was like deja vu.
Where they were like, man, whenI was at re max, my broker would
stand up and say, oh, let all thoseagents go over to Keller Williams.
(19:30):
They, they'll learn howto sell real estate.
Then they'll come over andplay with the big dogs.
Right.
We all know what happened there.
Keller Williams blew by re max,like they were standing still.
I. Keller not, not only blew buy, butlike double or tripled their, you know,
their growth, uh, re Max's growth.
And guess what?
Those agents never went backto re max when they got good,
(19:51):
they just stayed at Keller.
And then once, once, uh, Glenlaunched exp they've been slowly,
all those top dogs have beenslowly coming over and joining us.
Right.
And so how'd that work out for you?
How did that rhetoric.
I was in those, it was, it, it workedwhen they were, no one in the world
sells more real estate than re max.
Right.
That worked.
It was like, you, you, you grayou were lucky to graduate.
(20:14):
They didn't even takemost agents early on.
It's like, man, we don't take new agents.
Sorry.
Now they're like, yougotta, can you fog a mirror?
We'll take you.
So like, think about that.
Think about that.
Like what do they represent?
What they represent, whatthey used to represent.
What they represent.
Now, they don't really stand for anything.
Hey, we got different splits here too.
Yeah.
We got, you know, you come overhere on a 75 25, we got this split.
This split.
(20:34):
Now they're, they're basically in thesame, you know, the same as anywhere
or any of these other franchise modelswhere there's, there's no consistency,
there's no standard, there's no.
It's, it's just the dying brand.
Um, sad, but, you know, surprising,honestly, because they held
that number one spot as, asthe place to be as an agent.
Long for a long time, theyhad a hell of a good run.
(20:57):
Yeah.
And you know, I mean, I. Youcan always start to see when
you know things are in trouble.
I, I like to just, I'll just pay attentionto, to how many, how, how much turnover
in leadership is happening, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's a huge still, and thatjust is like, okay, right.
There's, there's really somethinghappening there and, and I think
(21:19):
that's really kind of interestingto pay attention to as you start
to see big, big moves happening in.
Companies and even what we're seeingin, you know, in the cloud space.
Right.
Um, it's just really interestingis I don't know how much of a
coincidence as you start to see,okay, well that person left.
(21:42):
Well, that person made a move.
Oh, the reportings were not whatthey anticipated them to be.
And so it's just always,as we know, layers deeper.
But it's really like interestingto see things that are, things
that are unraveling even, even.
A close competitor of ours.
I, I would love y'all's take asyou know, obviously the move with
spring, then Sharon obviously stayingwithin, but getting out of the
(22:05):
day to day, um, what's happening.
Yeah.
So first of all, let me, let me tellyou an interesting stat, nine point.
As a 9.2 agents every single day arecoming back to exp. I had, I had 11 calls.
I was on 11 calls yesterday.
The.
Three of them were three-way calls.
Two of those three had been at expbefore and they're coming back.
(22:28):
So, um, and, and you know, I thinkthat plays a lot to like the current
condition of the marketplace.
You, you've been in the business for yearsand the last three years have been tough
the first year, man, I love my broker.
I'm not going anywherethe second year, like man.
This sucks.
I gotta do something different.
Not really ready to make a move thethird year of, of this down cycle.
(22:50):
You're like, all right,there's gotta be a better way.
Right?
And so the, the people are open now,more open-minded than they've ever been,
and, and they're looking to, where'sthe place that everybody's going?
And it's, it's exp And, and I wanna makea point too, because we went through, we
rode the, we rode through, you know, whenthe, trying to keep the wheels between the
ditches between 20,000 and 80,000 agents.
(23:13):
Yeah, extremely difficult to do thatand be ca and, and lead with cash flow.
So we did this profitably, which has,uh, says a tremendous amount about
the, the model and the executiveteam and, and the execution.
But if you, if you go and you look underthe hood of our machine right now, and
you look at the statistics and you lookat what they're measuring on a daily
basis from an operational efficiency.
(23:34):
It is by far the most impressive thingabout exp. The fact that, you know,
the whole time is less than 30 seconds.
Like every our, our net promoterscore at exp is 76, I believe it is.
77, 77, unheard of across great companies.
Anywhere like that is unbelievable.
(23:54):
And they're, it's because they'remeasuring things that matter.
First tier support.
You got a question at exp, somethinglike 70 something percent of the time,
it gets answered by the first person.
They don't have to go ask somebody else.
They can solve that problem rightthere, right there with you on the
phone and, and you don't have to wait.
So the speed at which things arehappening, and this was something
that Leo told me, and, and, uh.
One of the events he was speakingat, that I was at recently, and he is
(24:16):
like, when, you know, when agents comeback to exp it's like, it's like they
went to, they left and they're like,man, the grass is greener over here.
Now I'm gonna go over here for a while.
They go over there and they realize,man, they don't even pay me the same day.
That like the things that we're doingthat makes life easier for an agent is,
is almost getting taken for granted.
It's so easy, so fast, so good.
(24:37):
And then you go over to an older,slow dinosaur company and it's like.
Man, I felt like I just walked intoBlockbuster and I'm, I'm gonna have
to rewind my tape and bring it back.
Like, this is not, this is not the same.
And so they want to come back towhere the, the efficiencies are and
where things are easy and where,and now we've taken the spot as the
number one training company in, in,in real estate that used to be kw.
(24:59):
KW had the best training.
Right Now, guys, you know, this,we, we, what did we train on?
It wasn't EOS, but before that,we trained on EOS, basically
the first version of EOS.
We roll that out every six weeks.
If you're, if you're a team and youwant to get trained, we used have to
pay for this level of coaching to learnhow to strategically grow your business.
The Masterminds with the top agents inthe world happening every day at exp.
(25:22):
You want to get around the best people.
That's how we've allgot become successful.
That's happening every day atexp. Oh, you're a new agent.
What's your game plan?
I have the new guy that joined.
That, um, that I told y'allthat was my Uber driver, right?
So he takes me to the Mavs game,tells me I'm getting into real estate,
doesn't have any idea who I am.
I've got Ryan Finch in the car withme who used to sell thousands of
homes and was like, this guy justhit the lottery as far as his, his
(25:43):
uber ride, you know what I'm saying?
Like somebody that could help him.
He's like, I interviewednine bro, eight brokerages.
And I said, go.
I said, go to the brokeragethat you talked to.
I said, ask 'em what they'regonna do from day one to day
90 to help you sell a house.
And so he did.
And she fired him.
She got mad, she didn't have an answer.
I, if you think it's more valuable overthere, then you can just go over there.
Well that's because peopledon't do anything for you.
So if you come over here andwe show 'em what we're gonna do
(26:06):
for 'em, plus there's fast cap.
The, the numbers coming out offast cap are freaking mind blowing.
Like, I mean, it's earlystages, but like you come over.
And you're a new agent.
We got the best training in theworld to get you into production.
There's a plan for you.
If you, they, you know, my joke thatI say to everybody these days is
like, when you got your real estatelicense, they should have just gave
you a plaque that says, figure it out.
(26:26):
Because that's what it feels like, right?
And so everybody in the industry'slike, yep, that's what it feels
like, but we're just getting betterand better and better and better.
And what's happening is we'rejust getting further ahead of
the competitors in the space.
And so we've got, you know, thisinteresting thing that's happened with
real, and I'll get to the point here.
With, with real.
They're at 20,000 agents and theyjust hit the biggest headwind
(26:48):
that we didn't hit until 80,000.
We knew there was gonnabe competition there.
Everyone that's out in the space thatcompetes against exp, what's their story?
What is, what is their brand?
What do they stand for?
We're the be the next.
They're gonna be the next exp, the nextex. We're gonna be like, come over here.
You'll be the next, uh, Brent Gove.
You'll be the next Gene.
Frederick.
The stock's gonna go up.
(27:09):
Just you saw what happenedat exp. Come over here.
It's gonna be the same.
And so they all took little pieces ofour model, and interestingly enough,
they, they copied our model, butthey didn't copy our core values.
So they're not agile.
They're certainly notprofitable in most cases.
Many of them aren't, are operatingon so much less company dollar to
try to implement the people thatyou need to make agents happy.
(27:32):
So when there's a problem at20,000 agents, let me tell
you at X exp how it looks.
If when there was a problem, we wouldscream to the rooftops, help y'all.
This is a problem.
Help help.
And then about two, three weeks, maybe amonth later, it would get handled and we'd
be like, God dang, if they glad they fixedthat because that was a real problem.
And then, and, and, and thatwas a long time for us to wait.
(27:56):
Like it wasn't happening instantlybecause we were facing these headwinds.
And so, and, and that's justactually at that point, no headwinds.
That was just us trying to navigate,keep the wheels between the dishes.
Can you hire fast enough?
Can you put the right people in place?
Can you, can you cascade down leadership?
At a pace at which you can scale.
And we made it through all that,only to have all this competition
where the the grass is greener.
Come over here.
(28:16):
And most of the people that leftare the agents that didn't do
nothing while they were here.
And they said, this time I'm gonna do it.
I'm gonna go over there at this timeand I'm gonna take advantage of it.
That's who left and they went over there.
Whether they take advantageof it or not, I don't know.
Um, but that's most likely not the case.
And so many of these, um, me too companiesthat, I call it the me Too movement,
um, many of them are, are struggling.
(28:37):
They're probably not gonna survive.
I know some one of them, epic, I'veheard has, is terrible at paying agents
on time, which is the rule number one.
And brokers pay your agents on time.
Rule number two, pay your agents on time.
That's a big problem, right?
The ability to do organizationalexcellence at a, at scale.
Is our competitive advantage now becausenow you can't get in the game and
compete with us, and the opportunity'sbigger here than it's ever been.
(29:00):
So now as we pulled spring away,do the math and you understand the
opportunities really over here.
And then we roll out.
Oh, you know, you know what real,I got on a call with Sharan.
Love the guy, by the way, madRespect Sharan is a real og.
Think he's absolutely one of the bestleaders in the real estate space.
I give him mad props and he pitched us.
(29:22):
He pitched me and you al if you remember.
And, uh, and it was, and itwas, it sounded pretty good.
And he said, you know, we hadthe blessing of coming second.
Said nobody ever, that's, there's nobenefit to coming second because anything
that you can do, we can do better.
So what do they do?
They, they have co-sponsorship.
They rolled it out.
What is it?
It's division you can co-sponsor.
That's great.
(29:43):
Hey, me and you can go get this agent.
We can bring them over to, to, to real.
Okay.
We're gonna split the revenue share and10 percent's gonna go to the company.
For them managing that, we, we were alllike, this is how dumb all of us were.
We, hey, we like this.
We want you to do it, Glen do it.
And Glen's like, let me think about it.
He comes back and says,nah, that's not a good idea.
(30:03):
Let's do it this way.
We're gonna make it multiplication.
So now if you co-sponsor with someone,we're just gonna create another spot
underneath that, you and that agent.
And when y'all, y'all could build a wholenother seven levels underneath that game.
Changed forever.
Complete game changer.
So what a huge difference.
Now, anything you cando, we can do better.
We just took all, all of your toysoff the playground and you have no
(30:25):
competitive advantage whatsoever.
And if I'm the CEO and I'm facingheadwinds of losing my number one
recruiter and, and exp is rollingout things that are better than what
we're able to do and we don't havethe money to fix problems that the
agents are screaming about right now.
They're facing headwindswhen we didn't have to.
I don't know why he stepped down,but I can understand why he maybe saw
(30:46):
something that that was not he, hedidn't think he wanted to be a part of.
I don't know.
I don't know.
They say, you know, oh, heis gonna go to the board.
They spun it and a bunch.
Yeah, you don't have the bet.
The dude that got everybody to join.
Sharon.
Mm-hmm.
And Sha ain't doing those calls no more.
Sharan ain't gonna be thereevery day helping you guys.
They're, you're gonna see him10, 12 times a year if that.
He is not in that role.
(31:06):
And who do you replace him with?
Who wants to follow that guy?
I mean, yeah.
That is leadership.
You don't, if you don't, didn'tdevelop a leader from within.
Which I would've thought Sharan would'vebeen certain that there was somebody that
could step in his shoes if he was steppingaway, if it wasn't something for family
health or something along those lines.
That, and, and pray that it's not, butif it's not something like that, to
(31:30):
step away says a lot because no one canfeel his shoes and he has to know that.
And so.
They're left in a really interesting spot.
Um, you know, it'll be,it'll be fascinating to see
where they go from here.
They are our number one competitor andthey're facing major headwinds that are
gonna be very difficult to, to, to, tofight along alongside the same time.
We just made the opportunity 10 timesbigger at exp for anybody that comes over.
(31:53):
Let me give you an example.
Caleb.
Caleb, Caleb just joined us in Charleston.
I'm at this event at at at Cabo.
Caleb schedules a three-way callat six o'clock in the morning.
I get on the call, somebody downthere found out about, about
co-sponsorship stall that Caleb joined.
Caleb's a gangster.
She's like, oh my God,I've got two agents.
I want to do a three-way call with you.
(32:14):
Would you co-sponsor with me?
When, when Caleb joined, wedidn't say, Hey, guess what?
Agents that are at exp are gonna becalling you because you're a monster
and and everybody loves you and they'regonna want to co-sponsor with you.
That wasn't what we told him becausewe never had that opportunity before.
Now, as a major player that comes over,you have the ability to partner with
anybody else in the company at thesame time that that's already here.
(32:37):
That was usually locked into where they'reat and couldn't even partner with you.
They would cheer you on and be like, yeah,man, dang, I wish I'd have got that guy.
Now you can work with them.
That is fundamentally a game changer in amillion different ways to think about it.
And so huge, huge opportunity nowthat where I didn't see how we were
gonna really make up the ground andlike really start growing again.
(32:59):
I don't, I, there's no questionthis thing is about to explode
opportunities bigger it's ever been.
Yeah.
Jay, I, I shared a, um,um, a, a reel with you.
Someone sent me and, um, I'm, I'm justgonna say it's, it was a reel that this
guy was being interviewed and he had been,he had dated one of Shaq's ex-girlfriends.
(33:25):
You all can fill inthe blanks on this one.
Okay.
But he's just like, lemme telly'all you do not wanna try and date
on a Shaq's ex-girlfriend fill.
What we're talking aboutand filling Sharon's shoes.
I mean, you know, he had us mesmerized.
I mean, this man is, um,the epitome of a leader.
(33:48):
He's smart.
Mm-hmm.
He's smart.
Uh, he knows, you know, youknow what his superpower is.
He, he can connect with a human beinglike, I've never seen anyone else connect.
It's magnetic.
It's, it's, but it's not scalable.
Yeah.
And, and so that unicorn, you know,look, look, the one thing that I will
(34:09):
also tip my hat to, to our competitorreel and, and the leadership is
they're the best at spinning things.
And so we've been saying allthese, oh, I'm so excited.
I'm so excited about the next chapter.
And listen.
With a publicly traded companybeing on the board, you know, even
with our own company, most agentscan't name two or three, four people
(34:31):
that are on, on even our board.
I. Let alone reels board.
And one of the reasons is they work about12 to 15 days a year, and that's about it.
Okay.
And now, I'm not saying that Sharon'sonly gonna work 10 to 15 days per year.
He's, he's, he, he's a, uh,specimen built, unlike many, right?
But it is a big loss.
(34:51):
He's been on so many, I how many,he's probably the only human
being on Earth that's been on morethree-way calls than Jay Kinder.
How many Probably got tired.
Yeah, he probably got tired.
It just doesn't make sensethough, Al it doesn't make sense.
He did 65 keynotes in thefourth quarter of 2024.
(35:13):
You wouldn't do that unlesssomething dramatically changed.
You wouldn't step down unlessyou knew there was a leader
that could take your place.
You're really abandoning everything you'vebeen selling for the last two years.
Yeah.
You're, you're abandoning that.
He's had quite a few exits,you know, where he is, come
in, built up, sold, gotten out.
(35:36):
It's kind of been surely, surely,surely it's not his stock vested.
If that's it, man, that's weak, bro.
I mean, and you know, I don't think thatjust, I don't know the man that well.
I just know him from the conversationI've had and I've watched and I've seen
him and I think he's a great leader, but.
It's almost like hedidn't like the headwinds.
(35:57):
You know?
It, it's, that's what it looks like.
Like this is hard.
The, because they, the noise rightnow at I, I know what it's like.
I already know what the conversationsare like behind the scenes at real.
I already know.
Because you know what, theywere like that with us when
we started facing competition.
The, the, the screams in the,and the we, the sky is falling.
We gotta be a, we have to have a zero costprogram or we're gonna get beat by LPT.
(36:21):
No, we're not.
That's the race to the bottom.
Y'all gotta have a box.
Gotta have a box.
Like the, the noise from peoplethat you would never think are
gonna be scared to death werescared and they were screaming it.
And so like the, to be ableto, to have to deal with that.
Maybe when things aregoing well, he's good.
Maybe adversity's not his thing.
(36:42):
I don't know that.
I don't think that's his character.
I really don't.
But anything outside ofthat doesn't make sense.
If you stepped away, if your stockobviously vested and you, and you stepped
away during the hardest time, then, thenhe's not the person I thought he was.
That would be, that would be the case.
Well, gene Frederick took, youknow when, when he came over, I.
You know, there was a, a stock, youknow, uh, agreement made for, for
(37:05):
him, if you know it, it was, it wasthe whole company's growth though.
It was based upon it.
And, uh, and frankly, Glen haseven said, he's like, when I made
that deal with, with Gene, I didn'tthink we we'd hit those numbers.
We didn't just hit 'em.
We blew those numbers away.
And, um, but Gene was still, youknow, he's still in the pocket.
Gene doesn't have to work no more.
Right?
Gene, gene could be living on his yacht.
(37:27):
Over in Puerto Rico and not have totend anything for the rest of his
life, but he's still in the pocket.
Exactly.
And, and you know, when, when you talkabout, that's actually a really good
point because I was thinking about itand, and you know, um, you can copy our
model, you could try to copy our model.
That's, that's fine.
But you know what, you don't have,you don't have a Gene Frederick.
(37:50):
You don't have, you know, Rob Flick.
I looked over at the pool and Iwas like, what is everybody over
there gathering around, like there,everyone at the pool kind of just
left everything and it just kinda likesucked over here by this one area.
I'm like, who is holding court?
Rob Flick.
Yeah, I saw that too.
It looked like church was in session.
You know, there, there's no, Brent,you're not gonna duplicate a Brent Go.
(38:10):
They don't have that.
It's, it's, it's an intangible.
It's an intangible.
Let me tell you, let me tellyou what else they don't have.
And this is super important.
By the way.
They don't have a true visionary leader.
They, they don't have Glen Sanford, thevisionary that created this company.
They didn't have that.
All they did was see somethingworking really well and say,
(38:32):
we want to try to do it too.
That's not a true visionary.
They just copied our model.
That's not, that's nota true visionary leader.
I've watched from everydecision that's been made.
Now we've gone through tremendousleadership changes, and every time
we did, we leveled up our leadership.
Mm-hmm.
And guess what?
Our competitors will take our, the, theperson that it took us to get to here was
not the person it took to get to here.
(38:53):
That Glenn understands that ourleadership team understands that you
gotta level up leaders to go from,you know, it's the ones and threes.
John, you talk about it all the time.
That that is, we went through thatcycle and that was a good person
to have here for a period, and thenwe had to uplevel our leadership.
That was interesting to watch.
I was fascinated by how well and howquickly we replaced leaders that were
(39:14):
not the right leaders, and then watchour competitors take 'em and get all
excited, like they did something big here.
So that's an interesting thing.
But you don't have, Glen, you weren'tthe visionary Glen the, when he came up
with this co-sponsorship, I was like.
You gotta be kidding me.
No, are you?
I would've never thought of itdoing it that way in a million.
You get me all the time in theworld, I would've screwed it up.
That is a visionary leader.
(39:35):
The other thing, and I'll tell you,this is our, this is our super, our
superhero power right now is Leo Perha.
I will put that dude up against anybody.
I'll go in the battlewith that dude anytime.
And we just went through 18 months of theMe Too movement of all these competitors,
and he navigated that with brilliance.
As an industry leader and, and.
(39:58):
And led the, we led the industrywith Leo and what he's been doing.
At the same time, executing operationalexcellence at scale and adding more
value to agents being the focus.
Glen's vision.
Run it through the filter.
Does this add value to the agent?
Yes.
Do it, do it.
Do it.
Get better at it.
Leo's been executing thatflawlessly across the board.
(40:19):
There's nobody that I've seen, and I, youknow, I say Sharan was a, a great leader.
Leo can run circles around him.
I mean, I've watched the two of them.
He's good.
He ain't, Leo and Leo did itduring one of the hardest times
in this company's existence.
And I, I gotta give thatdude mad props, man.
I, I am.
Thoroughly grateful that he is at EHP.
Yeah, the mindset too as well.
(40:39):
Everybody that you know underneathGlenn and, and Leo, the, the, from the
brokers to, um, you know, the peoplein charge of all the, the education.
I mean, Brian Ellington,I. I mean, he's phenomenal.
Um, just to share just a reallyquick story with him, just, just
a few weeks ago, I had one of myagents that they weren't, they're
going through fast cap and there wassomething they weren't happy about.
(41:01):
I forget exactly what it was, butshe mentioned to me it's great.
But she wasn't happy about this.
I messaged that on Workplace to Brian.
Brian took that information,picked the phone, called her.
Talked to her about opinion andmade some changes that was better
because they were open for ideasand they're open to get better.
They always, they always arelooking how to, to scale up
(41:22):
and, and make things better.
And they'll take, um, you know,the, the, the ideas from this agent
been in exp for like six months.
But that's, that's amazing.
That's leadership.
And it goes from, from the brokers to,you know, all the way up to the top.
And it's because of Glenn and Leoand, and, uh, and what they're doing.
Yep.
(41:43):
And I'm telling you, ourcompetitors can't make that.
Our competitors can't move at that pace.
That is our advantage.
It's our competitive advantage rightnow that we have great people, great
leaders, enough people in everydepartment to execute on a game plan.
They do not.
And so when there is a problemlike that, it falls on deaf ears.
Nobody said nobody does anythinguntil it becomes the biggest
(42:03):
fire that's burning and it hasto be a problem that gets solved.
It gets put into queue, it getsput on the list of things we'd like
to do that we can't get to yet.
And that's the problem with beinga competitor of ours, is you.
You have to sit and wait.
For that to get better, knowing we'rejust getting stronger all the while.
And that's why I showed, Ishowed it at one big fire.
I showed the, uh, my favorite uh,uh, photo, which is the secretariat
(42:27):
photo when he wins the TripleCrown, and he is looking back,
which they never do as a jockey.
Looking back at the competition,they were so far behind.
There was no way in the worldit was one of the greatest wins
of all time in horse racing.
But.
That is, that is where we areright now and, and we literally
are just getting started.
This co-sponsor thing, it's,it's like it's game theory.
Once, once that move gets made andnot everybody in the company knows it.
(42:49):
By the way, when I was at at, at Cabo,it, you know, they kind of, I think they
kind of strategically slow release this.
They let some leaders know, they put alittle video out, no big announcement.
Hey, this is gonna start May one.
And you know, we'll see kind ofhow, how things flow out from here.
But in the meantime, peopleare catching wind of this.
And then like, while I was there inthe, at the beginning, I was out,
(43:10):
I think about 10% of the peoplehere understand what just happened.
And then I. Bump into another person,another person, another person.
And they're like, this co-sponsorshould tell me about it.
What do you think?
What is this?
How, how's this gonna work?
And I'm like, okay,they're starting to get it.
But when the entire company, 85,000agents, realize that the gates are
unlocked and you can now bring in someoneto work with you and you know that
(43:30):
it, it's, it's, it's the biggest game.
There's so many scenarioswhere that is helpful.
And for the people that see are here forthe opportunity, which there are some
people here that just wanna sell more realestate and that's what we help them do.
And there's some people thatare here for the opportunity.
If you're looking for opportunity,you are absolutely gonna be at exp.
There is no question about it.
So, uh, just a phenomenal opportunity.
(43:52):
And again, it all revolves arounddoes this help agents, right?
Does it help an agent?
If they can bring in someone that couldsolve a problem for them, or someone
that has a real estate office they cango to, or whatever the case may be,
million scenarios you can think of.
Absolutely, it helps the agents.
So now, um, you know, I think it'sgonna restart the engine and, um,
you know, it'll be fascinatingto see what the growth looks
(44:12):
like the next 12 to 18 months.
But, you know, if you, if you'vebeen sitting around waiting, thinking
you missed the opportunity, youbetter get your ass over here.
'cause it's about to, it'sabout to be fun, fun, fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what's really, what's reallyawesome to see is, um, one with the
co-sponsor working with, you know.
So many, so many agents thatobviously have, have teams and
(44:36):
focused on production that they'vehad to bring in somebody to help 'em
operate that is not aligned to them.
Mm-hmm.
Now it's gonna all work out andit's always been kind of an issue.
Right.
But hey, hey, you know, I love 'em inhere, but they're not in my downline.
Like, you know, I don't want 'em to build.
That's off the table now, right?
Oh yeah.
So it's, it's really cool to see that.
(44:58):
It's solved so many problems.
And, and, and this is why I love Leo.
You know what Leo said?
He said 92% of their supporttickets, this solves the problem.
Mm-hmm.
Think about that and, and I thinkgo back to, you know, how we all go
about making decisions and I, thingsthat UL ultimately comes down to, and
Leo's the guy that doesn't like noise.
(45:19):
And what that means is that if92% of the complaints coming
my way, I'm going to fix it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Period.
Yep.
It's a good, good lesson.
Yeah.
Really good lesson.
Well, fellas, uh, absolute fire.
Always, uh, always greatto, uh, chop it in.
Get, uh, get our pers youknow, y'all's perspectives.
(45:40):
Kind of where the industry is, wherethe company is, where things are going,
and yeah, definitely, uh, uh, buckle up.
It's gonna be, it'sgonna be an interesting.
12, 18, 24 months, that's for sure.
Ahead.
Hey, here's the, here's theprice of eggs coming down, boys.
Right on.
Fantastic.
(46:01):
Hey, you mentioned that you know,EXPs where, where the pros go to
grow and where people, if you wantan opportunity, this is the place.
Um, and on the other side ofthat production, if, if you're
looking to, to grow, um, obviouslythis is the place as well.
I want hats out, off, off to you guys for.
For building that lead generation system.
You know, we've been sharing withour, with our business partners, a
(46:22):
$50,000 a month lead gen system andteam that you guys have put together
and, and uh, basically just handingit down to, to your business partners.
Uh, that's just a game changer.
It's already working.
We already have agents that are sellinghouses that weren't selling houses that
are, you know, adding what, one to fivedeals a month, uh, to their bottom line.
And that's not everyone in the company.
(46:42):
But that's because, you know,with our group and what you guys
are doing in Honey Badger Nation.
And when you think about someof these other competitors or,
or, um, some of these othercompanies, they don't even allow.
That's a huge, your, your, yourpartners to, to do anything unless
you scale it to the entire company,which obviously you just can't do.
(47:04):
Yeah.
It it's, um, it, it's a, it's acrazy, it's, you're, it's nuts.
I mean, it's nuts.
And, and I told Glen this in the verybeginning 'cause there was a little bit of
noise about, you know, some of the thingsthat we were doing to add value to agents.
And I told Glenn, I said Glenn, I said,if you're telling me I can't add value
to agents that I bring to this company.
Um, then I'm at the wrong company andhe is like, that's not what I'm saying.
(47:25):
He said, you know, there'sways that you could do it.
How many ways are there, you know,he, he hit me with like a, the
ultimate answer and, uh, made my headspin and I was like, you're right.
I could probably do it differently.
And so just to play well with others.
'cause the goal was never to notplay well with others, but the,
the model that we have doesn'tallow us to play well with others.
So now.
Nobody.
You, oh man.
(47:46):
I came under this guy and I didn't knowany better and I wish I could leave.
I you had to leave forsix months and come back.
Not anymore.
You can go partner with that person now.
You can bring that person in and,and it doesn't affect their upline.
Or you can come in as aco-sponsor under them.
There's so many ways toplay the game now that, um.
We can add more value, but, butthere's, you don't want to take out
(48:06):
of the hands the people that can addvalue their, their value stack of what
they're gonna do to help agents, right?
'cause that's what, that's what makes,that's the catalyst for how we recruit.
We bring more agents because wefigure out how to add more value,
how to solve problems for agentson top of what the company's doing.
We're out there doing it too.
And you want everyone in thecompany trying to think, how can
I make life easier for agents?
(48:27):
That's, that is a hugepart of our value prop.
It's not just the company do it.
We're all thinking this way.
Everybody wins.
Only if they win, we win.
If they, we can't help them win.
If we can't help agents win, we don't win.
So we have to think,how do we help 'em win?
We wake up every day thinking,how do I help more agents win?
How can we in implement moreways to help agents win?
And when you got a whole company ofpeople thinking that way, and we all
(48:49):
benefit, if we are able to help agents,what happens is significant growth.
That's what happens.
Yeah.
So awesome Andre.
Appreciate you, fellas.
Love you guys.
Always love you.
See the moon.
See you next time.
See you soon.
See you.
That's a wrap for today.
I hope you got somethingvaluable from this episode.
(49:09):
If you did, hit follow andvisit John kitchens.coach for
more ways we can work together.
See you on the next episode.
Seven figure success starts whenyou start thinking like a CEO.
Welcome to the John Kitchens Coach podcastexperience as your host, John Kitchens.
Get ready to think bigger andtransform your business into
a path to lasting freedom.
Andrew, the fountain inthe house with us today.
I'm Jay.
Welcome.
(00:20):
Thanks guys.
Appreciate you man.
We do have a lot to jump into.
Uh, should we change the name of thepodcast today to one Big Dumpster Fire?
Oh man.
You know, we can, we can kind ofcannonball anywhere we want to
go, but I, it was interesting.
So, um, del Pri, which, you know, Jay,you turned me on to, to Mike Re's,
(00:44):
um, information, his newsletter comesout and he's always got just, just
some, just fire information in there.
Just a lot of great stuff.
And last week he, his newsletterwas about the information of Rocket
acquiring, um, acquiring Redfin.
And he breaks down a lot of thingsin there and things that, that he
(01:06):
mentions and talks about somethingthat all of us have been chasing.
You know, especially, you know, inconversations when, when teams were
starting to become a thing and, andreally that was kind of the direction
and, and where things that were at inthe industry and all of our conversation
was always around how do we controlthe consumer experience, right?
(01:26):
The holy grail.
Mm-hmm.
To be able to be a one stop shop.
And that's really what.
His newsletter was kind of breakingdown and showing and where all
the moves that are being made.
Where is the direction where,where are things going?
Who's doing what?
Redfin.
You know, um, you know, obviously withRocket making the move with Redfin, then
(01:46):
you hear, you know, chatters of what'sCompass gonna do, what's Berkshire doing?
Um, and then you start to start tothink about and start playing some, Hmm.
What if scenarios here, you know,who's gonna be navigating what,
where, where are things going?
So I, I would love to just, let'sjust jump in right there because
we're starting to see some moves.
It's things that we've been talking aboutfor years and it's really starting to
(02:08):
play out, you know, legacy, legacy brands.
Obviously what, what Gary did with,you know, the money and it's just
interesting to see and navigatinginto the second half of the decade.
New, you know, um, new administration.
It's just really wild.
What's what's happening right nowin, in, in, just on, on the planet,
(02:29):
but real estate, um, you know,business and real estate in general.
I'd love to get y'all's take justkind of as we're starting to see
people starting to make some moves.
Yeah, I have some, I have some opinions.
I should probably start witha, a full legal disclosure.
These are my opinions, not the opinionsof any of, of exp or any of our
affiliates, um, affiliated companies.
But yeah, no, I mean, I've always beenfascinated with, with Glen Kelman,
(02:51):
like that dude, I mean, he rode thattrain as long and as hard as he could
ride that train the race to the bottom,you know, trying to be the cheapest.
Um, you know, the consumerwants, you know, they don't want.
The, the lowest.
I think it's just proof.
First of all, let's justcall a spade a spade.
That sell was not a win.
It was basically sold for parts, whichis what he said he didn't wanna do.
(03:13):
They bought that for the technology.
That's, that's the move.
I, they'll probably donothing with the real estate.
It was just a bad model.
Um, you know, they, they werehere in, in the Frisco market.
Just, you know, they did a lot of volume.
They just never made money.
I mean, it, it never, you know, they,they tried to go after the listing
side at one point, didn't work.
They were doing billboards all over, allover the cities they were in, didn't work.
(03:34):
It's just, uh, you know, there, there'salways gonna be a, a certain number of
consumers, you know, there's always gonnabe somebody that'll buy, you know, the
four tires for a hundred bucks, right?
Like, there's always someone that wantsthe cheapest, but that's just not.
You know, that's not, it's asegment of the market that's
always existed, always will exist.
I just wouldn't try to build a businessaround that, trying to be the cheapest.
Um, so yeah, so seeing, seeingthat didn't really shock me.
(03:55):
I thought it was a smart move byRocket because they had, you know,
that what they did do right at Redfinwas they built some badass tech.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, you know, now they're in theportal game and they're, you know, a,
a legitimate competitor, uh, in thespace as it, as it relates to that.
Um, so yeah.
Interesting.
You know, not, not super shocking.
Interesting.
Not a win.
(04:15):
That dude, you know, hewas very interesting.
If you've ever watched him speak, Imean, he's just dead set that this
is what the consumer wants and theyspent billions of dollars trying to
prove that and were proved wrong.
So yeah, they actually didthe opposite of everything.
We've, we've been, you know,taught and learned about how
to build a successful business.
(04:36):
You know, they, number one, uh, they took,they took the cheaper route, went after
the consumer that was looking for the.
To save a buck and also hired thelowest skilled, um, labor to do it.
Which, which is agents that, you know,it's, it's arguable to say that the
highest talent in our business, they'renot in that, the discount model, they're,
(05:00):
they're charging a higher fee because theycan, they can command it because they're,
they're providing a level of expertise.
That's beyond your average agent.
Right?
So, you know, Glen took the routeof going and dipping below that.
And I'm not saying that all redRedfin agents are bad or low skilled.
All's I'm saying is that the, the,the highest talent among agents
(05:24):
is not going to go working, youknow, working for a flat salary fee
where they have to be in meetings.
And, um, actually a Redfin agent, localto us over here recently came over.
And this was actually about sixmonths ago and six months ago.
He was saying that Redfin, this isbefore any talks of them being acquired,
was actually changing their model froma, from a, um, a salaried position
(05:48):
agent to a full commissioned agent.
And he's like, but they're still gonnaexpect me to do all the same things, all
the same meetings, be it this, be it thatrun around like a, like a W2 employee.
So he's like, I'm out, I'm out.
Before that happens.
So, um, you know, it's, it's, it'sinteresting that they, they survived
as long as they did and grew, butthey, it was because of the tech.
(06:09):
And like you had said, Jay,they sold it for parts.
You didn't wanna sell it for parts.
I would have to believe.
Do you guys know what the highestvaluation that Redfin ever hit was?
It was, it was, I wannasay it was 10 billion.
10 billion, yeah.
Sold for 1.7 billion.
All stock.
Yeah, I have to believe that'sa, that's, that's a loss.
(06:30):
That's an l. That's not, that's an lThat's not what Glen intended when, you
know, when he was starting and growingand trying to scale that business.
So right.
Wish, wish him best of luck.
Hope, uh, hope, hope he's gotenough to, you know, retire and, and
live a good life off of whatever.
But he's got stock, he'sgotta cash that stock in.
Um, it's not what he wanted.
(06:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I talked to a Redfin agent a few weeksback and they sound pretty nervous
about what was, what they thought mighthave been changing, and, and I wasn't
sure what they were gonna do either.
Um, like you guys said, I, I would rathermuch, the real estate industry is, is the
best industry out there that you can, youcan get paid what you're worth, right?
Mm-hmm.
And if you provide the value to theclient and the customer, um, why would
(07:15):
you wanna, in my opinion, you know,get paid a small salary and, and.
When you can just provide really,really, really good value and
get paid, you know, what you'reworth and provide for your day.
Right?
What are you, what, what are wethinking or seeing kind of as, as
possible next, next moves, right?
(07:36):
Just kind of from a, a thoughtexperiment, just kind of
thinking through things because.
Obviously, you know, we touched,touched on, you know, the
move that Gary made with kw.
So what, what are the legacy brands?
What, what are their moves to beable to, I mean, before they stay
alive, there's still, you know, the,you know, I, I think this is funny.
(08:00):
You know, it is funny, yo.
The, the anywhere brand, whichis basically, in my opinion, like
that's, you should be anywhere.
But at one of those brands, um, they're,they're all locked into this model.
So is kw.
They're locked into a franchise model.
Even Gary tried to go andcreate virtual brokerage.
And then lawsuits came up and, youknow, there's, you know, you can't,
you can't sell a virtual, you know,you can't have an agent go to a
(08:23):
virtual Keller Williams if you solda franchise in that same territory.
So, so Gary's been trying to compete withus since the 28, was it the 2018 vision
speech where he mentioned exp 21 times.
He was our number one recruiterat exp that year because we only
had 8,000 agents and nobody evenknew who, nobody knew who we were.
We were not even on the mapyet, but we were making noise.
(08:46):
And, uh, he put us on the map and,and he knew that, that it was gonna be
difficult, but he knew if he couldn'tcompete with revenue share and our model
that, that they were dead in the water.
And so I, when I see.
You know, it's not good orbad, it just is what it is.
If you sold your, your, you know,private company that you built up
for all these years, in the worstmarket we've seen since 1995, that's
(09:10):
a deal you wouldn't normally do.
You would wait five years until themarket's better and the numbers are up
unless you believe that your agent countis at the highest it's ever gonna be.
And, and that you, you realize you're,you're not really gonna be able to compete
in the new, you know, the new marketplaceof being cloud-based brokerages.
So, you know, that's, you know, that tome, they're all kinda locked in to, you
(09:31):
know, their models and, um, you know,their agent accounts are suffering.
You can look across all these,all these legacy brands, and
they're all losing agents.
Um, you largely because the value propshigher at, you know, at exp and, and, and
some of our competitors that are in thespace, it was cloud-based, so, so yeah.
I don't know what they do.
You know, it, you know, it'slike organizing chairs on
the Titanic, in my opinion.
(09:52):
I, I wouldn't, you know, I, Iwouldn't wanna, I wouldn't wanna
be be, you know, at the helm ofone of those companies for sure.
What's what's funny is, I was listeningto a podcast, I think you, you
listened to the same podcast, Jay.
We're not gonna mention names.
Um, but it was, it was veryinteresting listening to a gentleman
who, um, was, was kind of defendingthese legacy brands, namely.
(10:14):
Um, you know, kind of BerkshireHathaway Home Services, which I don't
know if you would call it a legacybrand, but they're a legacy model.
It's an iconic brand for sure.
It's, it's an iconic brand, but I'mtalking about the real estate sector
of it, home services specifically,and there's so many different layers
to all the different franchisesand who owns what and, and it's
(10:35):
so complex and so complicated.
The funny part about the, the, the commentthat was made on the podcast is that.
He was insinuating that, that the,the new, the cloud base, that usually
typically has a leadership group at thetop or one leader that drives things such
as a Glenn or a Leo or a a, you know,Sharon, which I know we're gonna talk
(10:58):
about that, that's a weakness to us.
That, that these legacy brands thathave the franchises with many leaders
that you don't hear about, that'stheir strength and he couldn't even
describe the value proposition ofBerkshire since when Berkshire Hathaway.
I guess kind of acquired all thecredentials and a lot of my friends
(11:19):
that were at Prudential were acquiredand they were all excited about it.
They were excited about havingBerkshire Hathaway and their sign.
I thought to myself, you know, 50% ofAmericans do not own stock and don't
even have any kind of inclinationof what Berkshire Hathaway, why
there's significance to that 50%.
Mm-hmm.
Other 50% know, the other 50% do not know.
(11:39):
I'm not seeing how that'sa competitive advantage.
Century 21.
Has a bigger brand name, even thoughthey're archaic at this point.
They have a bigger brand name whenit comes to like Kleenex on tissues
right than than Berkshire Hathaway.
Home Services does.
They weren't able, not one person wasable, even still to this day, to explain
(12:00):
to me what is your competitive advantage?
Yeah.
Explain to me in 30, which isironic why it's ironic agent to grow
their business on your platform.
They couldn't explain it.
Right.
It's ironic because, becauseBerkshire Hathaway, and one of the
things Warren Buffett says thatis the, one of the first things he
looks at in buying any company is.
Th they're durable, competitiveadvantage in the marketplace.
(12:20):
That's one of the mainthings that he looks at.
And so to hear, and you know, and Ididn't realize this, but they, they
picked up that deal with Prudential.
The real estate wasn't the, the focus.
That was something that, that they camewith it, it wasn't the focus of the deal.
And so they really probably didn'twant to get in the real estate space.
They just ended up in the real estatespace when they bought Prudential.
Um, and so, you know, but yeah, I mean,and, and this all comes down to what
(12:43):
we've talked about for years, which iswho manages the cu customer experience.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
The, the, the only value in a brandis if, if you actually control and
manage the customer experience.
And no real estate company otherthan Redfin who tried to do it
for less, which ironically theydidn't have any competition 'cause
nobody wanted to compete with that.
Um, you know, it's difficult to beprofitable in that space as it is, but
(13:07):
to control the consumer experience.
And we, we, you know, we, we did attemptto try to do it as best as it could be
done, um, in our own marketplace andcontrolling the consumer experience.
But it's like Jay-Z says,I'm not a businessman.
I am the business man.
The real estate agent is the brand.
And that's what exp gets.
It's, it's brokered by exp.
(13:27):
You can buy Dell, you can buyMicrosoft, you're powered by exp. And
that's that by Intel in that example.
And so.
These brands don't bring any valueto the table because you could go
to any one of those brands, oursincluded, and have a good experience
or a bad experience, right?
Because the agent controls the experienceand so there is no value in the brand.
And so, and if there is, if there,maybe they lock down some, some
(13:50):
referral business or some, youknow, some, you know, a business
unit that they, that they control.
What are they doing?
They're, they're monetizing thatthrough the agent on a 40% referral fee.
So it's not where you want to buildyour business, that's for sure.
As an agent, and, and I think mostagents, most agents I talk to, even the,
even the ones that haven't been doingit that long, realize that, yeah, I
ain't getting anything from the company.
You know, I don't, how many deals did youclose last year that came from your brand?
(14:13):
Right.
Some of the newer ones may say, well,yeah, I use the brand when I'm explaining
my value proposition as part of that.
But as soon as you realize that youdon't need that, you're, you're, you're
going to, wherever you have the, the,what is the best platform for you
to build your business, what createsthe best, what's the best vehicle for
you to get to your financial goals?
That's what agents are looking for.
(14:34):
And you know, I think that, you know,the last 10 years, if you look at how
much money came in trying to disrupt.
The real estate agent and replace them.
I mean, Zillow put more money into itthan anybody, and they said, forget it.
We'll just do flex and we're gonnagive leads to the best agents in
every marketplace, and that's howwe're gonna monetize this thing.
It's very difficult to control,you know, the entire experience
(14:56):
and, and not have a real, a greatreal estate agent in the middle.
And so.
Um, you know, I think, you know,there's less money going after replacing
the real estate agent at this point.
You know, when you look at thenew companies that are popping
up, where did Purple Bricks go?
I don't see them anywhere.
They came in, they said, nah,we don't want no part of this.
They left the industry.
So it, it is fascinatingto watch, but these legacy
brands are, are in a bad spot.
(15:17):
They don't control the brand.
They don't control the experience.
And so the company that agents aregonna gravitate to are where, where is
the opportunity the biggest for them.
Yeah, they all had their time, right?
I mean, Sears and, and Kmart,they all had their time.
But, um, things have changed.
And if you're not changing with,uh, with what's going on around
(15:37):
you, you're gonna be in trouble.
Right.
So, no, Andre, I, I, I love what yousaid right there and just kind of
thinking through more kind of, you know,who's, who's gonna make the next moves.
Right?
And they may just not even touchthe legacy stuff that might they,
they all might just sunset, right?
As the agents.
Die off and, and thatjust might be their path.
(15:58):
But you look at all the, the cloud-basedmodels, um, that are out there.
I mean, what are a couple dozennow, um, that are of, of that model?
What are their plans?
Like where, where do they,how, how do they compete?
How do they stay relevant?
I mean.
You, you, you can't runon fumes for very long.
(16:18):
You can't give away everything for free.
And so like what are we, obviouslywe have our crystal balls out here.
What are we anticipating, kind oflooking as, as moves are being made,
things are shifting around, youknow, over the next 3, 4, 5 years.
I, I'm really glad, I'm really gladI'm at exp. I think the opportunity
(16:40):
in front of exp is the biggestof, of all, of all companies.
Um, and we can get into why, youknow, the runway is so cleared.
The path has been cleared for us,um, and, and the competitors in
our space in terms of cloud-based.
But yeah, it, it's, I don't see any otheropportunity other than, than exp being.
Twice as big as it is now.
(17:01):
Maybe three times asbig as it is right now.
Yeah.
When, when you talk about, we weretalking about brand and, and you
know, arguably re max has built asuper strong, you know, branding name.
I don't know too many people if yousaid the word re max, they're not,
they're not gonna connect that to,you know, a, a real estate brokerage.
Same thing with Century 21.
(17:22):
What I find is interesting is that,as you alluded to earlier, Jay.
You know, uh, back when I was with re max,they, they, you know, I think they got up
to about 110 agents somewhere in thousand.
Yeah.
We, it was like 1 10, 1 27.
One 10.
Yeah.
Um, they're under 60,000 agents.
They're at 58,000 agents.
(17:42):
That's a huge dip.
50%, um, you know, in thehole on, on aging count.
I don't know what that equatesto with, with, uh, franchises.
I, I would not want to be aRem Max franchise salesperson.
Well, you never would wannaown a Rem Max franchise because
you were just a landlord.
So they used to be the cheapest.
They were the, that's where you went.
(18:03):
If you were, you know, a top dog,you went to REM Max, and they, you
know, they carved out that space.
But, and as long as you had a lot ofagents, you know, you, you, you know,
you could make a little bit of money.
But what you find right now ismost of these re max brokers
don't have enough agents.
So what are they doing?
They're in production.
So they're making a little bit of deskrent and now these agents that are
at REM Max are like, man, I could goover to exp and pay less of what I'm
(18:25):
paying in fees and I need this office.
I don't even go in here anyways.
So tremendous like turmoil at re max.
I mean, and of course, you know,they came out with this Super Bowl
move, you know, at, you know, thisyear at their convention they.
They changed their logo again, you know.
Wow.
I mean, you know, I'm sure everybodywas super excited and pumped about that.
(18:46):
Like, you know, that's,you know, it's laughing.
That was the only, that was theonly thing they had going for
'em was that Legacy balloon.
And, you know, I like it or not,you know, it's recognizable.
And now it's not recognizable.
No.
The balloon, they shrunk it andthey put the big words remix there.
Yeah.
Um, man, it, I, I heard someoneon stage in Cabo, by the way.
(19:09):
What a great, great event.
Wow.
Cheer cheers to, to Brent andJames Group and Brent Gove,
another amazing event in Cabo.
But someone was up on stage andI can't remember if it was V or
who it was, but I had an epiphanybecause it was like deja vu.
Where they were like, man, whenI was at re max, my broker would
stand up and say, oh, let all thoseagents go over to Keller Williams.
(19:30):
They, they'll learn howto sell real estate.
Then they'll come over andplay with the big dogs.
Right.
We all know what happened there.
Keller Williams blew by re max,like they were standing still.
I. Keller not, not only blew buy, butlike double or tripled their, you know,
their growth, uh, re Max's growth.
And guess what?
Those agents never went backto re max when they got good,
(19:51):
they just stayed at Keller.
And then once, once, uh, Glenlaunched exp they've been slowly,
all those top dogs have beenslowly coming over and joining us.
Right.
And so how'd that work out for you?
How did that rhetoric.
I was in those, it was, it, it workedwhen they were, no one in the world
sells more real estate than re max.
Right.
That worked.
It was like, you, you, you grayou were lucky to graduate.
(20:14):
They didn't even takemost agents early on.
It's like, man, we don't take new agents.
Sorry.
Now they're like, yougotta, can you fog a mirror?
We'll take you.
So like, think about that.
Think about that.
Like what do they represent?
What they represent, whatthey used to represent.
What they represent.
Now, they don't really stand for anything.
Hey, we got different splits here too.
Yeah.
We got, you know, you come overhere on a 75 25, we got this split.
This split.
(20:34):
Now they're, they're basically in thesame, you know, the same as anywhere
or any of these other franchise modelswhere there's, there's no consistency,
there's no standard, there's no.
It's, it's just the dying brand.
Um, sad, but, you know, surprising,honestly, because they held
that number one spot as, asthe place to be as an agent.
Long for a long time, theyhad a hell of a good run.
(20:57):
Yeah.
And you know, I mean, I. Youcan always start to see when
you know things are in trouble.
I, I like to just, I'll just pay attentionto, to how many, how, how much turnover
in leadership is happening, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's a huge still, and thatjust is like, okay, right.
There's, there's really somethinghappening there and, and I think
(21:19):
that's really kind of interestingto pay attention to as you start
to see big, big moves happening in.
Companies and even what we're seeingin, you know, in the cloud space.
Right.
Um, it's just really interestingis I don't know how much of a
coincidence as you start to see,okay, well that person left.
(21:42):
Well, that person made a move.
Oh, the reportings were not whatthey anticipated them to be.
And so it's just always,as we know, layers deeper.
But it's really like interestingto see things that are, things
that are unraveling even, even.
A close competitor of ours.
I, I would love y'all's take asyou know, obviously the move with
spring, then Sharon obviously stayingwithin, but getting out of the
(22:05):
day to day, um, what's happening.
Yeah.
So first of all, let me, let me tellyou an interesting stat, nine point.
As a 9.2 agents every single day arecoming back to exp. I had, I had 11 calls.
I was on 11 calls yesterday.
The.
Three of them were three-way calls.
Two of those three had been at expbefore and they're coming back.
(22:28):
So, um, and, and you know, I thinkthat plays a lot to like the current
condition of the marketplace.
You, you've been in the business for yearsand the last three years have been tough
the first year, man, I love my broker.
I'm not going anywherethe second year, like man.
This sucks.
I gotta do something different.
Not really ready to make a move thethird year of, of this down cycle.
(22:50):
You're like, all right,there's gotta be a better way.
Right?
And so the, the people are open now,more open-minded than they've ever been,
and, and they're looking to, where'sthe place that everybody's going?
And it's, it's exp And, and I wanna makea point too, because we went through, we
rode the, we rode through, you know, whenthe, trying to keep the wheels between the
ditches between 20,000 and 80,000 agents.
(23:13):
Yeah, extremely difficult to do thatand be ca and, and lead with cash flow.
So we did this profitably, which has,uh, says a tremendous amount about
the, the model and the executiveteam and, and the execution.
But if you, if you go and you look underthe hood of our machine right now, and
you look at the statistics and you lookat what they're measuring on a daily
basis from an operational efficiency.
(23:34):
It is by far the most impressive thingabout exp. The fact that, you know,
the whole time is less than 30 seconds.
Like every our, our net promoterscore at exp is 76, I believe it is.
77, 77, unheard of across great companies.
Anywhere like that is unbelievable.
(23:54):
And they're, it's because they'remeasuring things that matter.
First tier support.
You got a question at exp, somethinglike 70 something percent of the time,
it gets answered by the first person.
They don't have to go ask somebody else.
They can solve that problem rightthere, right there with you on the
phone and, and you don't have to wait.
So the speed at which things arehappening, and this was something
that Leo told me, and, and, uh.
One of the events he was speakingat, that I was at recently, and he is
(24:16):
like, when, you know, when agents comeback to exp it's like, it's like they
went to, they left and they're like,man, the grass is greener over here.
Now I'm gonna go over here for a while.
They go over there and they realize,man, they don't even pay me the same day.
That like the things that we're doingthat makes life easier for an agent is,
is almost getting taken for granted.
It's so easy, so fast, so good.
(24:37):
And then you go over to an older,slow dinosaur company and it's like.
Man, I felt like I just walked intoBlockbuster and I'm, I'm gonna have
to rewind my tape and bring it back.
Like, this is not, this is not the same.
And so they want to come back towhere the, the efficiencies are and
where things are easy and where,and now we've taken the spot as the
number one training company in, in,in real estate that used to be kw.
(24:59):
KW had the best training.
Right Now, guys, you know, this,we, we, what did we train on?
It wasn't EOS, but before that,we trained on EOS, basically
the first version of EOS.
We roll that out every six weeks.
If you're, if you're a team and youwant to get trained, we used have to
pay for this level of coaching to learnhow to strategically grow your business.
The Masterminds with the top agents inthe world happening every day at exp.
(25:22):
You want to get around the best people.
That's how we've allgot become successful.
That's happening every day atexp. Oh, you're a new agent.
What's your game plan?
I have the new guy that joined.
That, um, that I told y'allthat was my Uber driver, right?
So he takes me to the Mavs game,tells me I'm getting into real estate,
doesn't have any idea who I am.
I've got Ryan Finch in the car withme who used to sell thousands of
homes and was like, this guy justhit the lottery as far as his, his
(25:43):
uber ride, you know what I'm saying?
Like somebody that could help him.
He's like, I interviewednine bro, eight brokerages.
And I said, go.
I said, go to the brokeragethat you talked to.
I said, ask 'em what they'regonna do from day one to day
90 to help you sell a house.
And so he did.
And she fired him.
She got mad, she didn't have an answer.
I, if you think it's more valuable overthere, then you can just go over there.
Well that's because peopledon't do anything for you.
So if you come over here andwe show 'em what we're gonna do
(26:06):
for 'em, plus there's fast cap.
The, the numbers coming out offast cap are freaking mind blowing.
Like, I mean, it's earlystages, but like you come over.
And you're a new agent.
We got the best training in theworld to get you into production.
There's a plan for you.
If you, they, you know, my joke thatI say to everybody these days is
like, when you got your real estatelicense, they should have just gave
you a plaque that says, figure it out.
(26:26):
Because that's what it feels like, right?
And so everybody in the industry'slike, yep, that's what it feels
like, but we're just getting betterand better and better and better.
And what's happening is we'rejust getting further ahead of
the competitors in the space.
And so we've got, you know, thisinteresting thing that's happened with
real, and I'll get to the point here.
With, with real.
They're at 20,000 agents and theyjust hit the biggest headwind
(26:48):
that we didn't hit until 80,000.
We knew there was gonnabe competition there.
Everyone that's out in the space thatcompetes against exp, what's their story?
What is, what is their brand?
What do they stand for?
We're the be the next.
They're gonna be the next exp, the nextex. We're gonna be like, come over here.
You'll be the next, uh, Brent Gove.
You'll be the next Gene.
Frederick.
The stock's gonna go up.
(27:09):
Just you saw what happenedat exp. Come over here.
It's gonna be the same.
And so they all took little pieces ofour model, and interestingly enough,
they, they copied our model, butthey didn't copy our core values.
So they're not agile.
They're certainly notprofitable in most cases.
Many of them aren't, are operatingon so much less company dollar to
try to implement the people thatyou need to make agents happy.
(27:32):
So when there's a problem at20,000 agents, let me tell
you at X exp how it looks.
If when there was a problem, we wouldscream to the rooftops, help y'all.
This is a problem.
Help help.
And then about two, three weeks, maybe amonth later, it would get handled and we'd
be like, God dang, if they glad they fixedthat because that was a real problem.
And then, and, and, and thatwas a long time for us to wait.
(27:56):
Like it wasn't happening instantlybecause we were facing these headwinds.
And so, and, and that's justactually at that point, no headwinds.
That was just us trying to navigate,keep the wheels between the dishes.
Can you hire fast enough?
Can you put the right people in place?
Can you, can you cascade down leadership?
At a pace at which you can scale.
And we made it through all that,only to have all this competition
where the the grass is greener.
Come over here.
(28:16):
And most of the people that leftare the agents that didn't do
nothing while they were here.
And they said, this time I'm gonna do it.
I'm gonna go over there at this timeand I'm gonna take advantage of it.
That's who left and they went over there.
Whether they take advantageof it or not, I don't know.
Um, but that's most likely not the case.
And so many of these, um, me too companiesthat, I call it the me Too movement,
um, many of them are, are struggling.
(28:37):
They're probably not gonna survive.
I know some one of them, epic, I'veheard has, is terrible at paying agents
on time, which is the rule number one.
And brokers pay your agents on time.
Rule number two, pay your agents on time.
That's a big problem, right?
The ability to do organizationalexcellence at a, at scale.
Is our competitive advantage now becausenow you can't get in the game and
compete with us, and the opportunity'sbigger here than it's ever been.
(29:00):
So now as we pulled spring away,do the math and you understand the
opportunities really over here.
And then we roll out.
Oh, you know, you know what real,I got on a call with Sharan.
Love the guy, by the way, madRespect Sharan is a real og.
Think he's absolutely one of the bestleaders in the real estate space.
I give him mad props and he pitched us.
(29:22):
He pitched me and you al if you remember.
And, uh, and it was, and itwas, it sounded pretty good.
And he said, you know, we hadthe blessing of coming second.
Said nobody ever, that's, there's nobenefit to coming second because anything
that you can do, we can do better.
So what do they do?
They, they have co-sponsorship.
They rolled it out.
What is it?
It's division you can co-sponsor.
That's great.
(29:43):
Hey, me and you can go get this agent.
We can bring them over to, to, to real.
Okay.
We're gonna split the revenue share and10 percent's gonna go to the company.
For them managing that, we, we were alllike, this is how dumb all of us were.
We, hey, we like this.
We want you to do it, Glen do it.
And Glen's like, let me think about it.
He comes back and says,nah, that's not a good idea.
(30:03):
Let's do it this way.
We're gonna make it multiplication.
So now if you co-sponsor with someone,we're just gonna create another spot
underneath that, you and that agent.
And when y'all, y'all could build a wholenother seven levels underneath that game.
Changed forever.
Complete game changer.
So what a huge difference.
Now, anything you cando, we can do better.
We just took all, all of your toysoff the playground and you have no
(30:25):
competitive advantage whatsoever.
And if I'm the CEO and I'm facingheadwinds of losing my number one
recruiter and, and exp is rollingout things that are better than what
we're able to do and we don't havethe money to fix problems that the
agents are screaming about right now.
They're facing headwindswhen we didn't have to.
I don't know why he stepped down,but I can understand why he maybe saw
(30:46):
something that that was not he, hedidn't think he wanted to be a part of.
I don't know.
I don't know.
They say, you know, oh, heis gonna go to the board.
They spun it and a bunch.
Yeah, you don't have the bet.
The dude that got everybody to join.
Sharon.
Mm-hmm.
And Sha ain't doing those calls no more.
Sharan ain't gonna be thereevery day helping you guys.
They're, you're gonna see him10, 12 times a year if that.
He is not in that role.
(31:06):
And who do you replace him with?
Who wants to follow that guy?
I mean, yeah.
That is leadership.
You don't, if you don't, didn'tdevelop a leader from within.
Which I would've thought Sharan would'vebeen certain that there was somebody that
could step in his shoes if he was steppingaway, if it wasn't something for family
health or something along those lines.
That, and, and pray that it's not, butif it's not something like that, to
(31:30):
step away says a lot because no one canfeel his shoes and he has to know that.
And so.
They're left in a really interesting spot.
Um, you know, it'll be,it'll be fascinating to see
where they go from here.
They are our number one competitor andthey're facing major headwinds that are
gonna be very difficult to, to, to, tofight along alongside the same time.
We just made the opportunity 10 timesbigger at exp for anybody that comes over.
(31:53):
Let me give you an example.
Caleb.
Caleb, Caleb just joined us in Charleston.
I'm at this event at at at Cabo.
Caleb schedules a three-way callat six o'clock in the morning.
I get on the call, somebody downthere found out about, about
co-sponsorship stall that Caleb joined.
Caleb's a gangster.
She's like, oh my God,I've got two agents.
I want to do a three-way call with you.
(32:14):
Would you co-sponsor with me?
When, when Caleb joined, wedidn't say, Hey, guess what?
Agents that are at exp are gonna becalling you because you're a monster
and and everybody loves you and they'regonna want to co-sponsor with you.
That wasn't what we told him becausewe never had that opportunity before.
Now, as a major player that comes over,you have the ability to partner with
anybody else in the company at thesame time that that's already here.
(32:37):
That was usually locked into where they'reat and couldn't even partner with you.
They would cheer you on and be like, yeah,man, dang, I wish I'd have got that guy.
Now you can work with them.
That is fundamentally a game changer in amillion different ways to think about it.
And so huge, huge opportunity nowthat where I didn't see how we were
gonna really make up the ground andlike really start growing again.
(32:59):
I don't, I, there's no questionthis thing is about to explode
opportunities bigger it's ever been.
Yeah.
Jay, I, I shared a, um,um, a, a reel with you.
Someone sent me and, um, I'm, I'm justgonna say it's, it was a reel that this
guy was being interviewed and he had been,he had dated one of Shaq's ex-girlfriends.
(33:25):
You all can fill inthe blanks on this one.
Okay.
But he's just like, lemme telly'all you do not wanna try and date
on a Shaq's ex-girlfriend fill.
What we're talking aboutand filling Sharon's shoes.
I mean, you know, he had us mesmerized.
I mean, this man is, um,the epitome of a leader.
(33:48):
He's smart.
Mm-hmm.
He's smart.
Uh, he knows, you know, youknow what his superpower is.
He, he can connect with a human beinglike, I've never seen anyone else connect.
It's magnetic.
It's, it's, but it's not scalable.
Yeah.
And, and so that unicorn, you know,look, look, the one thing that I will
(34:09):
also tip my hat to, to our competitorreel and, and the leadership is
they're the best at spinning things.
And so we've been saying allthese, oh, I'm so excited.
I'm so excited about the next chapter.
And listen.
With a publicly traded companybeing on the board, you know, even
with our own company, most agentscan't name two or three, four people
(34:31):
that are on, on even our board.
I. Let alone reels board.
And one of the reasons is they work about12 to 15 days a year, and that's about it.
Okay.
And now, I'm not saying that Sharon'sonly gonna work 10 to 15 days per year.
He's, he's, he, he's a, uh,specimen built, unlike many, right?
But it is a big loss.
(34:51):
He's been on so many, I how many,he's probably the only human
being on Earth that's been on morethree-way calls than Jay Kinder.
How many Probably got tired.
Yeah, he probably got tired.
It just doesn't make sensethough, Al it doesn't make sense.
He did 65 keynotes in thefourth quarter of 2024.
(35:13):
You wouldn't do that unlesssomething dramatically changed.
You wouldn't step down unlessyou knew there was a leader
that could take your place.
You're really abandoning everything you'vebeen selling for the last two years.
Yeah.
You're, you're abandoning that.
He's had quite a few exits,you know, where he is, come
in, built up, sold, gotten out.
(35:36):
It's kind of been surely, surely,surely it's not his stock vested.
If that's it, man, that's weak, bro.
I mean, and you know, I don't think thatjust, I don't know the man that well.
I just know him from the conversationI've had and I've watched and I've seen
him and I think he's a great leader, but.
It's almost like hedidn't like the headwinds.
(35:57):
You know?
It, it's, that's what it looks like.
Like this is hard.
The, because they, the noise rightnow at I, I know what it's like.
I already know what the conversationsare like behind the scenes at real.
I already know.
Because you know what, theywere like that with us when
we started facing competition.
The, the, the screams in the,and the we, the sky is falling.
We gotta be a, we have to have a zero costprogram or we're gonna get beat by LPT.
(36:21):
No, we're not.
That's the race to the bottom.
Y'all gotta have a box.
Gotta have a box.
Like the, the noise from peoplethat you would never think are
gonna be scared to death werescared and they were screaming it.
And so like the, to be ableto, to have to deal with that.
Maybe when things aregoing well, he's good.
Maybe adversity's not his thing.
(36:42):
I don't know that.
I don't think that's his character.
I really don't.
But anything outside ofthat doesn't make sense.
If you stepped away, if your stockobviously vested and you, and you stepped
away during the hardest time, then, thenhe's not the person I thought he was.
That would be, that would be the case.
Well, gene Frederick took, youknow when, when he came over, I.
You know, there was a, a stock, youknow, uh, agreement made for, for
(37:05):
him, if you know it, it was, it wasthe whole company's growth though.
It was based upon it.
And, uh, and frankly, Glen haseven said, he's like, when I made
that deal with, with Gene, I didn'tthink we we'd hit those numbers.
We didn't just hit 'em.
We blew those numbers away.
And, um, but Gene was still, youknow, he's still in the pocket.
Gene doesn't have to work no more.
Right?
Gene, gene could be living on his yacht.
(37:27):
Over in Puerto Rico and not have totend anything for the rest of his
life, but he's still in the pocket.
Exactly.
And, and you know, when, when you talkabout, that's actually a really good
point because I was thinking about itand, and you know, um, you can copy our
model, you could try to copy our model.
That's, that's fine.
But you know what, you don't have,you don't have a Gene Frederick.
(37:50):
You don't have, you know, Rob Flick.
I looked over at the pool and Iwas like, what is everybody over
there gathering around, like there,everyone at the pool kind of just
left everything and it just kinda likesucked over here by this one area.
I'm like, who is holding court?
Rob Flick.
Yeah, I saw that too.
It looked like church was in session.
You know, there, there's no, Brent,you're not gonna duplicate a Brent Go.
(38:10):
They don't have that.
It's, it's, it's an intangible.
It's an intangible.
Let me tell you, let me tellyou what else they don't have.
And this is super important.
By the way.
They don't have a true visionary leader.
They, they don't have Glen Sanford, thevisionary that created this company.
They didn't have that.
All they did was see somethingworking really well and say,
(38:32):
we want to try to do it too.
That's not a true visionary.
They just copied our model.
That's not, that's nota true visionary leader.
I've watched from everydecision that's been made.
Now we've gone through tremendousleadership changes, and every time
we did, we leveled up our leadership.
Mm-hmm.
And guess what?
Our competitors will take our, the, theperson that it took us to get to here was
not the person it took to get to here.
(38:53):
That Glenn understands that ourleadership team understands that you
gotta level up leaders to go from,you know, it's the ones and threes.
John, you talk about it all the time.
That that is, we went through thatcycle and that was a good person
to have here for a period, and thenwe had to uplevel our leadership.
That was interesting to watch.
I was fascinated by how well and howquickly we replaced leaders that were
(39:14):
not the right leaders, and then watchour competitors take 'em and get all
excited, like they did something big here.
So that's an interesting thing.
But you don't have, Glen, you weren'tthe visionary Glen the, when he came up
with this co-sponsorship, I was like.
You gotta be kidding me.
No, are you?
I would've never thought of itdoing it that way in a million.
You get me all the time in theworld, I would've screwed it up.
That is a visionary leader.
(39:35):
The other thing, and I'll tell you,this is our, this is our super, our
superhero power right now is Leo Perha.
I will put that dude up against anybody.
I'll go in the battlewith that dude anytime.
And we just went through 18 months of theMe Too movement of all these competitors,
and he navigated that with brilliance.
As an industry leader and, and.
(39:58):
And led the, we led the industrywith Leo and what he's been doing.
At the same time, executing operationalexcellence at scale and adding more
value to agents being the focus.
Glen's vision.
Run it through the filter.
Does this add value to the agent?
Yes.
Do it, do it.
Do it.
Get better at it.
Leo's been executing thatflawlessly across the board.
(40:19):
There's nobody that I've seen, and I, youknow, I say Sharan was a, a great leader.
Leo can run circles around him.
I mean, I've watched the two of them.
He's good.
He ain't, Leo and Leo did itduring one of the hardest times
in this company's existence.
And I, I gotta give thatdude mad props, man.
I, I am.
Thoroughly grateful that he is at EHP.
Yeah, the mindset too as well.
(40:39):
Everybody that you know underneathGlenn and, and Leo, the, the, from the
brokers to, um, you know, the peoplein charge of all the, the education.
I mean, Brian Ellington,I. I mean, he's phenomenal.
Um, just to share just a reallyquick story with him, just, just
a few weeks ago, I had one of myagents that they weren't, they're
going through fast cap and there wassomething they weren't happy about.
(41:01):
I forget exactly what it was, butshe mentioned to me it's great.
But she wasn't happy about this.
I messaged that on Workplace to Brian.
Brian took that information,picked the phone, called her.
Talked to her about opinion andmade some changes that was better
because they were open for ideasand they're open to get better.
They always, they always arelooking how to, to scale up
(41:22):
and, and make things better.
And they'll take, um, you know,the, the, the ideas from this agent
been in exp for like six months.
But that's, that's amazing.
That's leadership.
And it goes from, from the brokers to,you know, all the way up to the top.
And it's because of Glenn and Leoand, and, uh, and what they're doing.
Yep.
(41:43):
And I'm telling you, ourcompetitors can't make that.
Our competitors can't move at that pace.
That is our advantage.
It's our competitive advantage rightnow that we have great people, great
leaders, enough people in everydepartment to execute on a game plan.
They do not.
And so when there is a problemlike that, it falls on deaf ears.
Nobody said nobody does anythinguntil it becomes the biggest
(42:03):
fire that's burning and it hasto be a problem that gets solved.
It gets put into queue, it getsput on the list of things we'd like
to do that we can't get to yet.
And that's the problem with beinga competitor of ours, is you.
You have to sit and wait.
For that to get better, knowing we'rejust getting stronger all the while.
And that's why I showed, Ishowed it at one big fire.
I showed the, uh, my favorite uh,uh, photo, which is the secretariat
(42:27):
photo when he wins the TripleCrown, and he is looking back,
which they never do as a jockey.
Looking back at the competition,they were so far behind.
There was no way in the worldit was one of the greatest wins
of all time in horse racing.
But.
That is, that is where we areright now and, and we literally
are just getting started.
This co-sponsor thing, it's,it's like it's game theory.
Once, once that move gets made andnot everybody in the company knows it.
(42:49):
By the way, when I was at at, at Cabo,it, you know, they kind of, I think they
kind of strategically slow release this.
They let some leaders know, they put alittle video out, no big announcement.
Hey, this is gonna start May one.
And you know, we'll see kind ofhow, how things flow out from here.
But in the meantime, peopleare catching wind of this.
And then like, while I was there inthe, at the beginning, I was out,
(43:10):
I think about 10% of the peoplehere understand what just happened.
And then I. Bump into another person,another person, another person.
And they're like, this co-sponsorshould tell me about it.
What do you think?
What is this?
How, how's this gonna work?
And I'm like, okay,they're starting to get it.
But when the entire company, 85,000agents, realize that the gates are
unlocked and you can now bring in someoneto work with you and you know that
(43:30):
it, it's, it's, it's the biggest game.
There's so many scenarioswhere that is helpful.
And for the people that see are here forthe opportunity, which there are some
people here that just wanna sell more realestate and that's what we help them do.
And there's some people thatare here for the opportunity.
If you're looking for opportunity,you are absolutely gonna be at exp.
There is no question about it.
So, uh, just a phenomenal opportunity.
(43:52):
And again, it all revolves arounddoes this help agents, right?
Does it help an agent?
If they can bring in someone that couldsolve a problem for them, or someone
that has a real estate office they cango to, or whatever the case may be,
million scenarios you can think of.
Absolutely, it helps the agents.
So now, um, you know, I think it'sgonna restart the engine and, um,
you know, it'll be fascinatingto see what the growth looks
(44:12):
like the next 12 to 18 months.
But, you know, if you, if you'vebeen sitting around waiting, thinking
you missed the opportunity, youbetter get your ass over here.
'cause it's about to, it'sabout to be fun, fun, fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what's really, what's reallyawesome to see is, um, one with the
co-sponsor working with, you know.
So many, so many agents thatobviously have, have teams and
(44:36):
focused on production that they'vehad to bring in somebody to help 'em
operate that is not aligned to them.
Mm-hmm.
Now it's gonna all work out andit's always been kind of an issue.
Right.
But hey, hey, you know, I love 'em inhere, but they're not in my downline.
Like, you know, I don't want 'em to build.
That's off the table now, right?
Oh yeah.
So it's, it's really cool to see that.
(44:58):
It's solved so many problems.
And, and, and this is why I love Leo.
You know what Leo said?
He said 92% of their supporttickets, this solves the problem.
Mm-hmm.
Think about that and, and I thinkgo back to, you know, how we all go
about making decisions and I, thingsthat UL ultimately comes down to, and
Leo's the guy that doesn't like noise.
(45:19):
And what that means is that if92% of the complaints coming
my way, I'm going to fix it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Period.
Yep.
It's a good, good lesson.
Yeah.
Really good lesson.
Well, fellas, uh, absolute fire.
Always, uh, always greatto, uh, chop it in.
Get, uh, get our pers youknow, y'all's perspectives.
(45:40):
Kind of where the industry is, wherethe company is, where things are going,
and yeah, definitely, uh, uh, buckle up.
It's gonna be, it'sgonna be an interesting.
12, 18, 24 months, that's for sure.
Ahead.
Hey, here's the, here's theprice of eggs coming down, boys.
Right on.
Fantastic.
(46:01):
Hey, you mentioned that you know,EXPs where, where the pros go to
grow and where people, if you wantan opportunity, this is the place.
Um, and on the other side ofthat production, if, if you're
looking to, to grow, um, obviouslythis is the place as well.
I want hats out, off, off to you guys for.
For building that lead generation system.
You know, we've been sharing withour, with our business partners, a
(46:22):
$50,000 a month lead gen system andteam that you guys have put together
and, and uh, basically just handingit down to, to your business partners.
Uh, that's just a game changer.
It's already working.
We already have agents that are sellinghouses that weren't selling houses that
are, you know, adding what, one to fivedeals a month, uh, to their bottom line.
And that's not everyone in the company.
(46:42):
But that's because, you know,with our group and what you guys
are doing in Honey Badger Nation.
And when you think about someof these other competitors or,
or, um, some of these othercompanies, they don't even allow.
That's a huge, your, your, yourpartners to, to do anything unless
you scale it to the entire company,which obviously you just can't do.
(47:04):
Yeah.
It it's, um, it, it's a, it's acrazy, it's, you're, it's nuts.
I mean, it's nuts.
And, and I told Glen this in the verybeginning 'cause there was a little bit of
noise about, you know, some of the thingsthat we were doing to add value to agents.
And I told Glenn, I said Glenn, I said,if you're telling me I can't add value
to agents that I bring to this company.
Um, then I'm at the wrong company andhe is like, that's not what I'm saying.
(47:25):
He said, you know, there'sways that you could do it.
How many ways are there, you know,he, he hit me with like a, the
ultimate answer and, uh, made my headspin and I was like, you're right.
I could probably do it differently.
And so just to play well with others.
'cause the goal was never to notplay well with others, but the,
the model that we have doesn'tallow us to play well with others.
So now.
Nobody.
You, oh man.
(47:46):
I came under this guy and I didn't knowany better and I wish I could leave.
I you had to leave forsix months and come back.
Not anymore.
You can go partner with that person now.
You can bring that person in and,and it doesn't affect their upline.
Or you can come in as aco-sponsor under them.
There's so many ways toplay the game now that, um.
We can add more value, but, butthere's, you don't want to take out
(48:06):
of the hands the people that can addvalue their, their value stack of what
they're gonna do to help agents, right?
'cause that's what, that's what makes,that's the catalyst for how we recruit.
We bring more agents because wefigure out how to add more value,
how to solve problems for agentson top of what the company's doing.
We're out there doing it too.
And you want everyone in thecompany trying to think, how can
I make life easier for agents?
(48:27):
That's, that is a hugepart of our value prop.
It's not just the company do it.
We're all thinking this way.
Everybody wins.
Only if they win, we win.
If they, we can't help them win.
If we can't help agents win, we don't win.
So we have to think,how do we help 'em win?
We wake up every day thinking,how do I help more agents win?
How can we in implement moreways to help agents win?
And when you got a whole company ofpeople thinking that way, and we all
(48:49):
benefit, if we are able to help agents,what happens is significant growth.
That's what happens.
Yeah.
So awesome Andre.
Appreciate you, fellas.
Love you guys.
Always love you.
See the moon.
See you next time.
See you soon.
See you.
That's a wrap for today.
I hope you got somethingvaluable from this episode.
(49:09):
If you did, hit follow andvisit John kitchens.coach for
more ways we can work together.
See you on the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!