April 3, 2025 • 46 mins
Episode Overview:
In this episode, John Kitchens and Al Stasek are joined by real estate powerhouse and former pro MMA fighter Tim Stout to talk about what it really takes to succeed in real estate—and life. From getting punched in the mouth in the octagon to dominating as a team leader and investor, Tim brings a gritty, no-excuse mentality that’s missing from most conversations. If you’re tired of chasing tactics and ready to build lasting discipline, this episode delivers the raw truth.
Key Topics Covered:
Discipline Is the Difference
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How Tim’s background in MMA shaped his mindset for real estate success.
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Why doing hard things consistently is the ultimate competitive edge.
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The power of knowing who you aren’t—and how that creates focus.
Results vs. Excuses
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You can have results or excuses—but not both.
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Why most agents fail: avoidance of the boring, repeatable work.
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Social media as a long-term leverage tool, not a magic bullet.
The Solopreneur Trap & Team Building Truths
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The danger of trying to build a business while clinging to every role.
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Why you must teach your team—even if they eventually compete with you.
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How to attract, train, and empower talent without fear of losing them.
The 1% and 0.1% Advice
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20% advice is everywhere. But what does it take to be elite?
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How Tim breaks down what real top-level execution looks like.
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The truth about marketing models: be a lighthouse, not a tugboat.
Industry Headlines Breakdown
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Compass' MLS lawsuit: is it a play for control or consumer protection?
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EXP & Realtor.com’s “sweetheart” settlement deals under fire.
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Rocket’s aggressive vertical integration strategy with Redfin & Mr. Cooper—what it means for agents.
Actionable Takeaways:
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Do the boring work. Discipline over dopamine every time.
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Choose your marketing lane. Are you chasing or attracting?
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Master the foundational 3: Prospecting, Follow-up, Appointments.
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Commit to mastery. Not just motivation or dabbling.
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Build a brand people trust. Social media is earned equity over time.
Resources Mentioned:
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SevenFigureCall.com – Book a discovery call
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Agent to CEO Coaching Programs
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Plus/Minus/Equal Mentorship Framework (Fr
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Seven figure success starts whenyou start thinking like a CEO.
Welcome to the John Kitchens Coach podcastexperience as your host, John Kitchens.
Get ready to think bigger andtransform your business into
a path to lasting freedom.
What's happening, everybody, man.
Thank you guys.
Tuning into another episodeof One Big Fire and, uh, I'm
(00:24):
excited to jump in today.
We've got, uh.
Mr. Albi Sta in from the, uh, west sideof the 2 1 6 joining us, and, uh, then
we've got Mr. Tim Stout in the house.
Tim, welcome.
Appreciate you having me guys.
Yeah, man.
So give us a little, giveus a little background, man.
Um, you know, I'm, I'm excitedto chat with you anytime that
somebody's, you know, bring some typeof discipline into, into their life.
(00:46):
And the, the whole, how you do anythingis how you do everything kind of.
Kind of cascades and carries overand, um, you know, definitely
having the martial arts background.
But I, I think just doing anythinghard for a consistent period of
time just just starts to reshapeand reframe your, your mindset.
And we were joking, you know, someof these clowns that we're probably
(01:07):
gonna touch on a little bit earliertoday, they need to, they need to come
roll around with you for a little bit.
One way to get 'em, that's for sure.
So talk to us, man.
So what, uh, what, what, what lifebefore real estate and, and kind of
led you up to present day here with us.
Okay.
A quick overview.
I'm from a super smalltown in east Tennessee.
Uh, like three red lots.
(01:28):
One high school, like small town.
Everybody knows everybody.
Uh, grew up there, you know, loved it.
Poor, but loved my area.
I started boxing.
At a young age, you know, foughtall the up through the ranks.
They did extremely well with that.
And, uh, then I found out, uh, mixedmartial arts, started grappling,
kickboxing, had a few amateur fights.
(01:48):
Went pro super early.
Uh, fought pro up there probablyfor four, four or five years.
And then, uh, I had an opportunity.
I was actually supposed to goto Thailand to teach and, uh.
I was going to go, uh, teach grappling atthis, uh, one of these kickboxing camps.
And then they did something wherethey revoked all the work visas.
So I didn't get to go.
(02:09):
And then like the day after,I got a call from a guy in
Peachtree City in Georgia, I.
And he says, I wanna open an MMAgym on the south side of Atlanta.
He goes, but I wanna do it different.
And he says, most people, whenthey open these gyms, they have a,
a kickboxing coach, a tie boxingcoach, MMA coach, boxing coach,
kids coach, cardio kickboxing coach.
And I was like, okay.
So we want one personthat can do it all I.
(02:30):
And he says, you know, we're headingthrough the grapevine that you're, you're
the guy that can teach about everything.
I'm like, okay.
And they, you know, they offered methis amount of money, which I thought
was obscene because at that time I wasworking in like juvenile detention.
So the money that I was making,you know, it was quite a bit higher
to teach, you know, fighting.
So I'm like, I don't know about this.
So I remember going down here andlooking at it and really loving the area.
(02:53):
And, uh, went back home andI'm like, well, my dad's
gonna taught me how to go in.
You know, he wants me at home.
It's like six hour drive.
I was like, dad, I said,here's what they're offering.
And he goes, go.
He goes, if you don't likeit, you can come back.
And I'm like, okay.
So come down here.
Opened that.
Taught there several years.
Continued to fight.
Opened my gym.
Still have a gym to this day.
(03:14):
It's 16 years old, I think.
And, uh, when I decided toretire from fighting, I. I
was, I wanted to be in sales.
I wanted to get paid for what youdo, not what you're expected to
do or what you're supposed to do.
I didn't know why I was, I had afriend of mine who owned a car lot,
and I'm like, well, maybe I'll do that.
I didn't.
And, uh, one day I was teachinga cardio kickboxing class and had
(03:34):
about probably 30, 30 ladies init and a few guys sprinkled in.
And these three, three girls comein off the street, want to try a
class, and they drove nice cars.
They were dressed nice, they smelt nice.
You know everything that success is.
And I said, what do you ladies do?
And they're like, oh,we working real estate?
I'm like, okay.
It's amazing.
Still never thought about it.
10 minutes in the workout,they quit because it was hard.
(03:57):
They didn't quit because they were tired.
They quit because it was hard.
And I'm like, I remember textingmy wife on my Blackberry and I'm
like, I'm gonna sell real estate.
And she goes, uh, do you thinkyou can sell real estate?
I said, I don't know, butI know I can outwork 'em.
She goes, you're sure as hell outwork 'em.
That's how it started.
Wow.
It is, man, that's, it's wild, right?
Yeah.
(04:17):
And being able to just, just to havethat and, and you see, you learn so much
about yourself doing anything hard, like,like in that experience right there.
So, um.
Yeah, I, you know, I guess, you know, Tim,you know, prior to that and, and kind of
going through that, through that wholeprocess, touch on the hard thing, right.
And, and the hard work thing alittle bit and, and really, you
(04:37):
know, having a, having a backgroundin, in MMA, your entire life, right.
Growing up at early age and justbeing in it, you know, what,
how it just shapes your mind.
Do you just like.
You see things differently.
You think differently, you operatedifferently, you behave differently,
um, and just, just how important itis, having that type of discipline.
(04:58):
The extreme dis discipline is an.
It's crucial for any typeof success in anything.
It doesn't matter what you're doing.
Uh, I remember when I firststarted fighting 'cause I
wasn't the most talented.
I wasn't the most athletic.
I definitely wasn't the smartest.
Uh, my best attributes when I was fightingwas I was tough and I hit really hard.
And that is a recipeto get your ass kicked.
(05:20):
Because you don't quit because thewhole time, like even when I'm losing,
all I gotta do is land one punch.
That's it.
Land one punch.
So I'm taking it, taking it,taking it to land one punch.
So you don't know to give up.
Um, but the doing the hard stuff,like most people know who they
are, but I think it's way moreimportant to know who you're not.
And when you're fighting, yourealize who you're not and who you
(05:42):
are at a high level, and you can.
You can grow on it.
I was training with oneof my guys this morning.
I took him down against the walland I'm hitting him and he's
like, man, I just feel like I gotmy butt kicked the whole time.
I was like, this time last year, Isaid, you would've tried to quit.
I was like, you, you, you becomethe person who doesn't quit now.
(06:02):
That's the best attributeyou could ever learn.
I'd rather you continue to getyour butt kicked every day for
the rest of your life, and havelearned not to ever give up.
That's gonna take you further in lifethan, than, than beating up a, you
know, a 46-year-old retired fighter.
I was like, that's, that is thestrongest attribute I think when
you start learning about yourself.
You, you know, what triggersin your head about quitting or
(06:24):
stopping or pushing forward.
But what it taught me was.
I don't have to have allthe talent in the world.
I just have to outwork you.
And I outwork you in learning, reading,coaches, mentorship, courses, books,
podcasts, and then doing the actual work.
You, you, yeah.
You can't be beat likeyou, you can't be beat.
(06:46):
I would wanna, can I unpack that?
'cause I wrote it down.
At least tried to write a lot ofthat down, Tim, but you know, um.
The, the, the thing that, that, thatis just keeps being ingrained in
my brain is, is that the biggest,you know, there's all these things.
They talk about skill being highlyskilled versus being tenacious.
(07:08):
And I believe tenacity beats,it, beats skill because it's
not the highest skilled person.
Because if the highest skilled personisn't tenacious and, and, and they quit.
The, the person who's not quitting,who's less skilled gonna win.
And that's in, especially in real estate.
But what you said, I, I want youto unpack, know what you're not.
More so than what you know,what your strengths are.
(07:31):
Know what your, were you kindof going with a, know what your
weaknesses are going into it, youknow, know, know and accept what
those are so you can backfill 'em.
Like could you explain a littlebit deeper what you meant by that?
And first, I'm gonna touch on thetenacity part because that's a, on
my, on my shoulder I have can't teachtough and uh, 'cause I can tell people
like I, I can teach anyone to fight.
(07:54):
I can teach any one martial arts.
I can't teach everybody to fight.
'cause you gotta havethat with inside of you.
And you're talking about the tenacity.
I would rather take a fighterthat is a, a five out of a 10.
That has grit and will never giveup over a, over a skilled fighter.
That's a 10 out of a 10.
'cause my guy will beat himin in a long enough runway.
(08:14):
I'll get him conditioned enough,the pressure will be too hard, and
then they'll fold that other guy.
So that tenacity is super crucial.
Yeah.
Uh, so what, knowing who you're not,it, it gives me two, two big, um.
Pluses, two big opportunities.
One, I can backfill itwith knowledge, like I can
understand it, I can explain it.
(08:35):
I can become sharper in thoseareas because you know, you're only
as strong as your weakest link.
And just like a sword, itonly cuts where it's sharp.
So you have to sharpen where you'renot, not sharp, you have to sharp
pun where you're not sharp as well.
But also once you get into building abusiness is like everybody, you know,
I, I do some coaching too, and everybodywants to, I'm gonna hire an ISA.
(08:56):
I'm gonna hire this.
I'm like, you wanna hire an ia?'cause you hate making phone calls.
The the phone, the phones arewhere you make your money.
Like what do you, whatare you not good at?
What we're not having this conversation.
If you're horrible on the phone,you're not building a business.
So trying to teach themwhat they're weak at.
'cause a lot of people wantto, they want to leverage what
(09:16):
they're, uh, they wanna leverage.
What they don't like, and it's like, no,you leverage what you're not good at.
That's how you strengthen the,the whole, the whole group.
Mm, yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
And in the ring, you know, versus realestate, you're fighting for your life.
It's your life on the line.
So it's no pun intended, vitally importantwhen you're in that octagon or ring to
(09:43):
know what your stre, your weaknesses aremore so than what your strengths are.
Because you have to backfillthose weaknesses with your
strengths is what you're saying.
So like, I was literally just on aphone with a recruit yesterday and he
is with a brokerage local and he islike, well, you know, I was telling
him about what we do to help him grow.
We build you a funnel out, webuild your, your, your, um,
(10:04):
automation out and your CRM.
We coach you on how toconvert these leads.
I mean, this is what we've been doingfor, you know, years and years and years.
And he's like, yeah, well my brokeragehas, uh, a similar, um, you know, lead
generation system that we can plug into.
It sounds very, very similar.
And, and the thing is, islike he wasn't consistent.
I said, explain to me your, yourexperience with that lead gen system.
(10:27):
What have you done?
What have you tested?
And he didn't really, he's like, well, Itried it for a little bit and then I quit.
And, and that's, that, that's all Ineeded to know at that point, is that
he's not being coached for the long game.
He's not being coached on howto be consistent and do the
boring shit every single day.
Because that is the number one thingwhen we talk to high producers like
(10:50):
you high just, just high achievers.
It's the same thing every time.
You know?
It's do the same boring stuff, go tothe same boring gym, lift the same
boring weights, hit the same boringspeed bag, whatever it is, you, I
mean, after a while it gets boring.
You know, doing it anyway.
(11:11):
It doesn't mean you stop.
You know, and, and that's the thingthat people just can't figure out,
eat the same boring food, right?
You're hundred percent.
We hear it every single time.
So great distinction, Tim.
Love it, Tim.
Bringing, taking, taking that experienceand, and just everything that compounded
in the, in the habits and the discipline.
Um.
(11:33):
Carried right over into real estate.
Like what was, what was kind of for youand because I know there's some lessons
in there for a lot of agents that arestruggling right now with, with on the
real estate, and there's a ton of agentsthat are struggling and, you know,
obviously lacking, like, like you said,avoiding doing the thing that's necessary.
But like, just from your experienceand, and being able to carry over, um,
(11:55):
everything that you brought from MMArunning, MMA business, being able to carry
that over into real estate, like whatare some of the key foundation that you'd
like, Hey, if you really want to thrive inany type of market condition, this is the,
this is what you need to stay grounded.
This is the foundation youcan have, uh, you can have
results or you can have excuses.
You can't have both.
(12:15):
And, and I press that with,with my guys, like all the time.
My team.
It's like you have to, everybodysays real estate's a number game.
It is, but I have, I have somepeople who have to make 500
calls to get five appointments.
My team leader in Tennessee makes30 and he give five when he talks
to somebody, he's, he's good.
Why he's not making 500 calls andhe'll sell 50 houses this year.
(12:37):
Like he, he's crushing it.
But it's like you, youhave to put in the time.
Effort.
'cause I'm not, I'm nota very, uh, social guy.
Like, I'm not a, I'm not thefriendliest appearance looking guy.
'cause you know, I don't,I don't smile a lot.
And I'm always, if I see youout, I'm trying to assess you.
Like, are you a threat?
Like, am I going to have to deal with you?
And, you know, I'm not all, how are youguys, you know, I'm, I'm not that guy.
(13:00):
So, so I've had to,I've had to learn that.
And, um, what was the,what was the question?
I got off on a tangent.
Yeah.
I just, I just think,you know, looking at.
The what's carried you andgrounded you, the foundation.
How, how does that, can, you know,from, from you, coming from a teacher
standpoint, being able to, to tieand pour back into, you know, agents
right now that are struggling.
(13:21):
It's like, hey, just ground it inthese three foundational things and
let's just do that for, let's do that,for, let's do that for a year, right?
And then, then we can pull our head upand see kind of where the results are.
As long as we're not making excuses.
And these three things are happening.
The, uh, with the, with the foundationis, I, I come from a place when I made
a mistake, I got punched in the mouth.
Or choked or, or armed, you know.
(13:42):
So for me to do massive action withreal estate, it wasn't a big deal.
I could call you, you could tellme whatever you wanted to say.
You're not gonna hurt myfeelings, and I understand that.
So that helped me a lot.
I think the, the three things,the only three things that matters
in real estate is, is prospectingfollow up and appointments.
That is absolutely it, and you just haveto figure out what type of prospecting are
you willing to be committed to for a year.
(14:04):
And you, the only thing thatmatters through prospecting is the
amount of of appointments you get.
And the same thing with follow up,the fortunes and the follow-up.
We all know that.
So, uh, my, I like the phone becauseI, I'm, I got a big social media
following, you know, I've got400,000 something people on Facebook.
I've got, you know, I've got,I've got the big social medias.
But when you're.
(14:25):
That's one to many marketing, but mostpeople don't have that ability to do that.
Mm-hmm.
So they need to be very effectiveat one-to-one marketing.
'cause that's where youbuild relationships, that's
where you build rapport.
Every salesperson I've met, everysalesperson that you've met,
always says, if I get in frontof 'em, I'm gonna close 'em.
Like everybody can do that.
Can you get in frontof them from the phone?
(14:46):
That's where your skillset needs to be.
Or meeting people out on the, you know,like yesterday we taught a class on
how to, you know, if you reached outto three different people a week, you,
you saw 'em in the gas station line.
You saw 'em at Chick-fil-A, like yousaw them and you introduce yourself.
You ask about 'em.
What, what do they do?
You know, how can I help your business?
It's going to come around andyou're gonna be able to say.
I sell real estate.
(15:06):
Like if you know anybody looking tobuy and selling the vest, let me help
you and just going over the extra.
But it's the, it's like you said, it'sthe boring, monotonous activities that
you just continue to not give up on,and you have to be committed to mastery,
and that's when your day gets easier.
I do zero prospecting and I'll sell 60some houses this year while running a
team, and I've got a big investing armtoo, that we're doing a lot of business
(15:29):
over there just because of my socialmedia and the fact that when I see people.
I know how to help them the best.
Mm-hmm.
Because of my experience.
It's the thing, it's the number onething that I see agents that are thriving
versus, that are in, in getting themselvesin deep water is their social media,
uh, presence and consistency over time.
Those that have been consistent,I. 18, 24 months been really
(15:53):
consistent pouring in, adding value.
Um, just either, I mean, obviouslyright, it's, it's, it's educational
or, or entertainment or a mixture.
Maybe a little bit of inspiration,but staying consistent with it there.
Doing really, really well.
Right.
Doing really well with their business.
People wanna be, they wanna bethe social media star more than
(16:13):
they wanna be a real estate agent.
Mm-hmm.
So you're competing against that too.
So that's, and that's difficult,but it's commitment because people
are going to burn out so fast.
You just have to continue to, toput things out there that people
are wanting to see when they thinkreal estate, they think of you.
Yeah.
There was something thatI wanted to ask you then.
Um.
Al we can jump into acouple, a couple headlines.
(16:33):
Um, you know, I mean, we can sithere and talk to Tim all day.
Just Oh, yeah.
Just fascinated about disciplineand, and just being, you
know, how that carries over.
Remember one of the, one ofthe, the best stories and um,
just kind of understanding.
Kind of our role as, as leaders.
And I think it, it, it was, uh, stemmedfrom, um, kind of one of the ground rules
(16:54):
inside of Frank Shamrocks, um, studios.
And it was the, it's the, it's theplus, minus and equal equation.
And saying that when you come in,you gotta find somebody to look up
to, you gotta find a mentor, yougotta find somebody that's gonna, you
know, you know, you're gonna connectwith, that's, that's gonna help you
take that next, that next level.
And then you've got a minus.
You got somebody you're gonna.
(17:15):
You're gonna be that mentor too.
You're gonna teach, right?
And just always say with agentslike, well man, I just got licensed.
Well, how did you get licensed?
There's other people that arewanting to get licensed, how can you
help them, you know, get licensed?
So that's, there's always, there's alwayssomebody that you can lead and mentor.
And, and I know that's, that's, I.Foundational throughout any of the
MMA practices is that, hey, part ofyour requirements to, to level up to
(17:37):
the next, you gotta give back, right?
You gotta teach, you know, justwhere you're at in the process.
You gotta go, you gotta go helpthe little, the little guys, you
gotta help them, you know, yougotta give time right back to them.
You gotta be a mentor.
And then the equal, right?
We gotta find that accountabilitypartner that we're gonna call
each other out day in and day out.
We're showing up together.
We're texting each other at theend of the day, did you do what
you said you were gonna do?
And, and that really stuck with me.
(17:58):
And so for you being in, in that rolefor so long, and you, you, you triggered
a couple things from, uh, Bette David,uh, from Patrick Bette, David, and one
of the, my favorite reels he put out lastyear was the three types of people, right.
Are you, are you interested?
Are you committed?
(18:19):
Or are you obsessed?
Right?
So just kind of evaluating kindof where you're at within, within
the game of real estate right now.
And we talked about this at, atour quarterly event last week at
at at Kitchen Table, and one of thesmartest dudes I know, he's the best.
COO, small, small, um, smallbusiness entrepreneur, uh,
operator that I've ever seen.
(18:39):
Coo he is, he, he is the best andhe is also the one of the smartest
guys I've ever met in my life.
And I take notes everytime I sit down with him.
And that simpledistinction, he goes, fuck.
He goes, I wasn't even interested.
How can I be committed if I'm noteven interested in, in what it is?
And so like even the smartestright little things like click.
But just getting in that onequestion I have for you and this,
(19:03):
this came from Bad David as well.
He talked about it a couple weeks ago.
He was having a conversationwith his, with his boys.
Um, and it was around thetype of advice you get, right?
He talked about the 20%, the 1%,and the 0.1%, and there's a lot of
people out there, a lot of peopleon social media, they'll give you
that to be in the top 20% advice.
(19:23):
I. Right.
Show up every day, work hard, like,hey, master your scripts, get on the
phones, you know, do your follow up.
Set the appointments right.
You get to top 20%.
Just off of the advice thatwe just given in the first 15
minutes of this, of this talk.
But as you work with people at, atso many different levels, like to get
(19:44):
to, like, I don't under, people don'tunderstand the difficulty for what
you've been able to accomplish in MMA tobe able to get to that, to that level.
Right.
I remember, remember when Connorcame on the scene, he only cared
about three things, and one of'em was a black belt and juujitsu.
Right, like people don'tunderstand like he wanted to what?
Be a billionaire, win two world titlesand have a black belt in jujitsu.
Like think about that.
(20:05):
Crazy ass.
Conor McGregor carries aboutthree MA major goals, and one is
to be a black belt in Jiujitsu.
So to get to that level.
What I wanna hear from you that,that real estate agents need to
understand right now in today's market,we, this is day one of Q2 of 2025.
What's the 1% advice and then what'sthe 0.1% advice and that David
(20:26):
was, give example, he's like, youcan't be whatever you want to be.
Son, you'll never playcenter in the in, in the NBA.
You're not seven three.
Right?
Like you're, you're gonna be,you're gonna be five eight.
Like, deal with it.
I'm sorry you, I can'tgive you that advice.
You can't be whatever you wanna be.
And that's the difference in the 20% tothe 1%, and then even the 0.1% advice.
What would you be saying to agentsthat wanna be in the top 1% and
(20:49):
then even another step furtherto be the 0.1% in the market?
What do, what do they need to hear?
Wow.
If you wanna be the, the top 1%, uh.
There's two types of in, in realwe're talking about real estate.
Yeah, there's, there's two typesof marketing and anything that you
do, there's, and I call it the tug.
There's the tugboat.
Marketing and there's the, uh, thelot, the lighthouse marketing tug
(21:13):
boat goes out, grab a boat, goesout, grab a boat that is 98% of all
real estate agents, their entirething, and then their entire career.
Then you come across a few agents who,who, they run the attraction model.
People come to them, theyrun the lighthouse marketing.
I think to be at the 1%,you have to be able to.
To be the person that's attractingthe, attracting the leads, attracting
(21:34):
the deals, attracting the talent,
it's.
It's as easy.
It's easier than anything.
One of my mentors tells me thatyou are best suited to teach the
person you were 10 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
And, and that helps me becauseI knew what I was, I was
hardworking, but I was ignorant.
So I had to become that.
'cause I realized who I wasn't.
(21:54):
And I think the 1% is you have tounderstand leverage or the 0.1% you
have to understand leverage because.
In this game, it's like you can be atop 1% realtor by yourself, but to get
like to that elite level, you have to beable to leverage and you have to be able
to track the right, the right talent.
You have to be able to educate them,train them, and you know anybody that's
(22:17):
in the team building business realizesthat you're gonna have attrition,
you're going to build somebody up forthem just to leave and compete against
you, and you can't be mad at them.
Because that should bewhat you want for them.
Mm-hmm.
And it, that's, that's, that's adifficult, difficult place to be
mentally, is to, uh, build someoneup that's going to eventually compete
with you, because they all will.
Mm-hmm.
(22:37):
I love that.
That's awesome.
It's, it's the exact reason why I, I mean,it's the, probably the biggest reason why
I joined exp and moved my brokerage over.
And, and, and, uh, John and I, youknow, we went down the rabbit hole
for six days, days, days, figuring outlike, is this the right thing to do?
We just opened this brokerage up threeyears ago, two and a half, whatever.
(22:59):
Same.
We did.
Same thing.
Yeah.
And we're gonna move it into this company.
No one's heard of exp, but it wasfrom what you just said, because.
I was, um, coaching my competitionup to go out and compete with me
out, out in, you know, in the field.
And I'm like, man, if I had a bettermodel, I could coach all these people
(23:21):
up and they'll never leave the nest.
They'll just stay right wherewe're at and I'll help them grow.
Because it wasn't like, you know,people that were leaving weren't
upset or mad at me for something.
It wasn't like a breakup.
It was like, Hey, I need tospread my wings and grow.
And I don't think I could do itunder your current business model.
And so they, they, they wereseeking out a business model that
(23:42):
they could expand and, and grow.
And, uh, and now we found that withexp. So, uh, I just wanted to point
that out, that, that, that was, um.
Exactly the reason why we're here rightnow, why I'm on with you for that reason.
Yeah, I did wanna, um, can we talka little bit about some, uh, some
current events, some headlines?
Yes.
I de and I wanna get Tim's perspectiveon a couple of these, so Yes.
(24:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Far away.
Love it.
Yeah.
So, so there's, there's one that,you know, this just made me laugh.
Um, Compass's clients, they, youknow, and you have to wonder if
Compass or they had to have like,gotten their clients together and
say, Hey, you should maybe, you know,um, follow a class action lawsuit.
(24:24):
I just can't, I can't imagine anylike, normal seller, someone who,
you know, they're not in real estate.
They hired an agent to sell theirhome and they put it on the MLS and
someone coming up and convincing them.
It's like.
It's like saying, um, yeah.
Oh, you put your home on the MLS,uh, I'll get to the, the, the punch
(24:45):
is this, they're basically tryingto put a, a clash action lawsuit.
They're trying to recruit enoughhome sellers that sold their home
with a real estate agent that had puttheir home on an MLS system, meaning
exposing it out to the masses that thatactually hurt their values and they
got less money because of it versus.
(25:06):
A strategy that's well known as a pocketlisting, which where the broker just keeps
that, that listing off of the MLS, theypop a sign in the yard or sometimes they
don't, and they basically just expose itto their small network of agents that they
know usually within their own brokerageso they can double side the deal.
That's usually why I've, I'veseen people use pocket listings.
(25:28):
Now you can make the argumentand say, well, if they're, um.
You know, a celebrity type person,someone who, um, ha has a, um, you
know, a large public figure that doesn'twant the public knowing like, Hey,
this is my house, it's for sale here.
Look at all the pictures on the inside.
I get that to a certain degree.
(25:49):
But when you think about like,that is the, the most, that's less
than a fraction of a fraction of afraction of like a 10th of a percent
of your sellers that are out there.
Everyone else.
They're normal folks like us.
We're not celebrities.
You know, we want our, uh, homemarketed for the highest price.
We want the most amount of moneyin the shortest period of time.
(26:11):
That's typically what99.9% of sellers want.
Um, and then you have this little sliverof people is, yeah, I'd like you to sell
my house for the highest amount, but Idon't want everyone to know about it.
Yeah.
It's like, it's like trying to sell.
Let's just say a Ferrari.
Okay, you got a Ferrari.
(26:32):
It's a nice Ferrari.
Your house is like, you know,I'm comparing it to like maybe
your house is like a Ferrari.
You have a Ferrari and you wannasell it, and you decide here.
I don't want everyoneto really know about it.
I don't wanna put it online.
I don't want all thebuyers to know about it.
I'm gonna put it out in my front lawnwith a little sign that says, and I'm
just gonna let anyone who drives by.
(26:54):
Know about my, my, my car for salethat will get me my highest price.
Everyone knows that.
That's absolutely ridiculousto think that you are, you're
gonna command the highest price.
Now, could you?
Sure.
Anything's possible.
You could maybe get someone just,you know, buy luck, drive by my
side street here, away from allthe rest of the traffic and maybe
(27:19):
I would get a, a high price, butmore than likely I'm not going to.
Fetch the highest price becausenot all, the entire consumer pool
isn't even aware that it's for sale.
So, uh, the lawsuit is, is tryingto get enough sellers together to
say, yeah, I got less money for myhouse because I put it on the MLS.
Tim, what do you think about this story?
(27:41):
I've had a few clientswho didn't want listed.
Uh, mostly, you know.
They're going through a divorceand they don't want everybody
to know their business.
You know, small, smallcases like you're saying.
But this goes back to the one ofthe golden rules of marketing.
If I have a hundred pizzas and onebuyer, the buyer decides the price.
But if I have, you know, one pizzaand a hundred buyers, then whoever
makes the pizza describes the price.
(28:02):
The more pizza that I canput my property in front of.
Common sense tells me I'mgonna make more money.
So I think when you're, when you'reallowing things not to get syndicated
or on IDX websites or feeds, I thinkyou're limiting the amount of buyers.
And if you limit the amount of buyers,I think you are limiting your price.
Yeah.
Those competition's, what,what drives everything.
And if there's no, no marketing,there's no competition.
(28:25):
Yeah, it, it's, it's get, you know,the, the amount of just litigation
is really getting out of control.
What, so Al so I guess my questionhere too, Al and, and Tim chime in,
like what I, I keep coming back, right?
Because, um, KT and, and how I operate is,is on the theory of constraints, right?
That's the, just my, I I, that'sthe way I see things, right?
(28:46):
I just, I see constraintsin, in everything.
And where's the constraint,remove the constraint.
And that, that really comes back to.
What's the damn goal?
Because every time the goalchanges, the constraint changes.
So like, what is the real goal here?
Like what is the intent?
I mean, at the end of the day, what,what are they trying to accomplish?
Um, by doing all of this?
(29:10):
I think Compass, I think, I think,'cause I, I worked at Compass before
I, I went independent and, uh.
Robert is a super sharp guy.
Like he's, there's a plan.
If he's doing something, there's a plan.
The dude's sharp and uh, haddinner with him a few times.
Like he's, he's, he's sharp in my opinion.
I think it comes down to thatif, if they can control their own
(29:31):
listings internally, then they makemore money, you know, because they
don't have to sell 'em outside.
That's the only, that's the onlything that makes sense for me.
But I got a small brain, sothere, there's a play somewhere.
No, you're right Tim.
You're spot on.
Actually, I mean, the only, um,the only entity that could benefit
(29:52):
from pocket listings is the brokerthat's pocketing the listing.
Howard Hannah, here in my market.
They've been trying to do it for years.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, um, you know, here's thefunny thing is I'm reading this, this
statement and a statement to InmanCompass says about this lawsuit.
We're proud to supportWashington homeowners who are
(30:12):
asking the right question.
This is the question that theyfeel is the right question.
Why are they the only onesin America without a choice
in how to sell their homes?
Everyone think about that.
Everyone has a choice.
Everyone has a choice.
You can choose to sell for sale by owner.
(30:34):
You could choose to call a discountbrokerage that'll sell it for,
you know, a dollar or whatever.
I mean, you know, I, I worked fora brokerage selling a home for
$595, selling a home for 9 97.
There, there's, there's the discount.
Brokerage is not a new thing.
Consumers have choices they can callanother broker that's a full service
(30:55):
broker that's gonna charge a full fee.
It's the same thing in, you know,there's discounted legal services, or
you can, you can pay an actual skilledattorney to represent you in whatever
you need, uh, legal representation in.
And so the, the, the questionisn't the right question.
Because we know the answer to thequestion is everyone has a choice.
(31:16):
No one's got a gun to their head thatsays you need to put your home in the MLS.
In fact, I don't, and I, I, I think itis MLS specific because in Cleveland,
where I'm from here, our MLS has alwayshad a clause that states if the seller
doesn't want their home put into theMLS, they sign on the listing agreement
that says sellers requesting no MLS.
(31:37):
Uh, input because if we don't havethat signature from the seller, we
actually could get fined as a, as arealtor, you know, that's a member of
the MLS because we didn't put it inwithin 72 hours or whatever the rule is.
We've always had of theming out of that.
Now there might be other MLSs thatdon't have that opt out maybe?
No, I don't think we do.
(31:57):
I don't think we have it.
So you don't have an, like your sellershave No, they have to have it in the
MLS in, in Atlanta, as far as I know.
I've not seen anything thatever says you didn't have to.
Okay.
Yeah, we've had that option.
So maybe that's where the confusionfor me is because we've always
had that option, you know?
Um, we've had a rule that it hasto be put in within 72 hours, but.
(32:18):
A seller could opt out ofit, at least in our MLS.
So maybe that's the case in Washington.
Um, and why they're trying to,you know, uh, sue them there.
But even, even if they're forcedto do it, they still have an
option of going for sale by owner.
They're, they're, I don't know,of one state that has made it
illegal to go for sale by owner.
(32:39):
And so the, the lawsuit Ifeel is, is, um, is frivolous.
I feel it's a waste of time.
Money, resources that canbe put to other things.
And I really would love to see, youknow, some, um, some accountability
in, in this our, our tort laws.
In other words, when you file a lawsuitlike this now, they haven't filed yet.
(32:59):
In, in fairness, they're just tryingto build up enough people to see if
they could do the LA class, Asha,they should be able to reverse sue if
they lose for all the legal fees ofall the, you know, the, the, the, the
defendants that are having to defendthemselves from these frivolous lawsuits.
Um.
What are your guys' thoughts?
(33:19):
I agree.
I mean, I agree with you.
I do too, man.
It's, it just feels like youneed to have a legit case.
Yeah.
And if you don't, then they need tobe ramifications and, and everything.
Not just real estate base, like, 'causethere's so many people that are just so
you frivolous throwing things out thereand trying to sue people and stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
That's what I feel.
And I think it's a coupledifferent things, right?
(33:39):
I think you got attorneys trying topush, see where they can grasp and,
and make something happen, and thenobviously be encompass kind of what
is, you know, definitely going alongand like what's, what's their intent.
Um, Alice switch over a little bit tothe, the other legal thing that that
popped up that we were chatting about.
Um, back to the, uh, the sweetheartdeal, talking about like, yeah, sweet.
(34:01):
What are they trying to do?
So, yeah, ERT and exp. Um, the,uh, uh, you know, were negotiating
settlements on the Gibson case last year.
Um, and, and, uh, for whateverreason negotiations broke down.
It says the company's insteadmediated nationwide settlements.
With attorneys for plaintiffs andCooper agreeing to pay 8.5 million
(34:23):
and 34 million respectively.
The Missouri Court is currentlyweighing claims by the Gibson plaintiffs
that exp and ERT engaged in reverseauction or a legal strategy in which.
A defendant ne negotiates a settlementwith attorneys who are willing to
accept settlements amounts less thanthe attorneys in a separate case.
(34:45):
So, uh, what I'm in English, how I'minterpreting that is that they, they
negotiated a settlement for the samecase with a different set of attorneys
that were representing a different set ofplaintiffs, and that carried over to the.
To the, um, to the, the G Gibson case.
And they're fighting that.
I guess that's how I'm, and Icould be wrong by the way, um, but
(35:08):
that's how I'm interpreting it.
'cause it is a little bit confusing.
But they negotiated a great deal and thenthey're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You need to be paying way more than that,even though both sides agreed to it.
Um, I, I think, you know, the, theplaintiffs were like, wait, wait, wait.
They're paying all this over here.
We negotiated, you know,too low of an amount.
(35:29):
We want, you know, we, we wanna redo.
Basically.
And, um, you know, I don't, Idon't know how you guys interpret
it, but that's how I do.
And it's, um, again, more, moreridiculous lawsuits just being flown.
Absolutely ridiculous.
What it, it made me laugh.
I was Rogan said something the otherday talking about, you know, you know,
(35:49):
I was, you know, it was just his, hisobsession with pool and it's like.
We're playing a hundred dollars tablesand I beat you five in a row, and then
now you want to come in and all, youknow, a 500 table to get it all back.
Like in one, in one, one game.
No, it ain't that way.
You got beat, like, like deal with it.
And that's what it feels likeis like they got beat and they
just don't wanna deal with it.
(36:10):
That, you know, they're over therepouting, kicking, kicking the rock.
It's like poor losers.
Absolutely poor losers.
What it sounds like, and it's, yeah.
And it's horrible because it's, Ihope they didn't have the same lawyers
that negotiated that following thislawsuit, because obviously Yeah,
it's actually in your backyard, Tim.
Um, it, you know, so what it's saying isthat Hoop defendants, exp ERT and Mark
(36:33):
Spain real Estate, um, and the AtlantaCommunity Real Estate have motions for
preliminary approval of their settlements.
It's currently pendingin the Georgia Court.
And according to Cohen, the Gibsonplaintiffs won't suffer any harm if
they're, if they aren't allowed totransfer the case because they'll be
(36:53):
able to fully litigate their issue duringthe court settlement approval process,
including by raising objections tosettlements on reverse option grounds.
So what I, what I think is happening isthey want to switch, um, jurisdictions.
To help their chances ofswitch, you know, to, to getting
more money outta this thing.
And the court, the court said,no, we're not allowing that.
(37:15):
Um, what's Mark Spain have to do with it?
Uh, he was part of it as well, but heweren't, he wasn't mentioned in the
headline, but apparently he is oneof the plaintiffs with us that agreed
to, um, the settlement originally.
So interesting.
Interesting stuff.
Interesting stuff.
Um, one last item.
I know we've been talking about this, Aland Tim would love to get your take on it.
(37:36):
We, uh, we talked a couple weeksago about when, when, uh, rocket
acquired Redfin and we know, um, itwas, it was, it was pretty crazy.
Same day.
The announcement, um, was, uh, same dayMike Dre released his weekly newsletter
and he was talking about Right.
You know, we've all been in pursuitof the, of the holy grail, right.
Of just, um, you know,complete everything in-house.
(38:01):
We've been working on thatfor, for, for 20 years.
Right.
We've all been trying to chase the,you know, the holy grail to where you
control the whole consumer experience andnow really starting to see it play out.
And so interesting to see, you know,Redfin's move with, um, you know, with
acquiring, um, feels like a, a at a, at a.Had an extreme discount of going to get to
(38:24):
go get Redfin, and then coming back hereon top and acquiring Mr. Cooper group,
excuse me, for 9.4 billion, puts themat managing 2.1 trillion in mortgages.
Basically serving one in sixmortgages in the US at this point.
(38:50):
So with that move, uh, and, and Iwould love to get, I had Kurt Sewell.
I asked him, I, I tookhi, got his take on it.
And um, the gentleman that alwayscomes on the top of, um, on, on
whatever Rocket does owns whateverthe, the other largest, uh, mortgage
company, they're both there in Detroit.
Owner of, owner of the sons,um, Gilbert buys the, the calves
(39:14):
and he goes, buys the sun.
So he is like always trying to one top.
So it's, it's gonna be really interestingto see a couple more of these moves as,
as they kind of jockey in position to, totry to ultimately, you know, take over the
whole experience and getting, especiallyon the, on the mortgage side of things.
My take.
They're trying to get to, to, tothe consumer, get to the buyer,
(39:34):
get, get that done before it'shanded off to the real estate agent.
As we're seeing a lot ofthe, the handoffs, um.
You know, on, on a highreferral basis back to, you
know, um, those opportunities.
So like, what, what,what are y'all thinking?
What are you seeing?
I mean, is this just more of, ofwhat's to come as things start to,
(39:55):
um, align moving into the future andthe consolidation and really just that
whole vertically integrated, you know.
Putting all the piecestogether under one roof?
I think so.
I think they're, they're just goingto, like you said, if they can, if
they control the, if they control thecustomer, they control everything.
And just like with Zillow, you know, I,I fired Zillow the first of the year.
(40:16):
I've been Zillow's number oneconverting agent in Georgia for the
year since they started a flex program.
And the first of the year I firedabout 15 agents who wasn't producing
where my team needed them to.
And we fired Zillow.
And Zillow was taking like.
44% or something of a commission.
And when you're running ateam that's a 50 50 split.
(40:36):
That's a big kick.
I think Zillow and other, these, theseother ones are running these, these,
you know, big commission split models.
I think it's going forthem to be able to work it.
I think they're going tohave to buy brokerages.
I think that's their next play,because the team splits do not work.
You know, with, with, with Zillow and,and Redfin will start the same thing
because I'm sure Zillow, I mean, Zillow's,uh, has looked up their search traffic.
(40:57):
Zillow is.
365.8 million monthly visitsand Redfin is 87 million.
So it's fine, you know,exponentially bigger, but it's
what are they going to do with it?
Right?
That's that, that's the question.
But they want to control the customer now.
They control the mortgage, theycontrol the lead given, and, and
they're not, they're not gonna bein the business of selling leads.
(41:18):
They're gonna do the same thing Zillowdoes, if I would, if I was them.
Yeah, I see, I see more of that going,that go in that direction, right?
Being able to have, have the handoffand charge, be able to charge more.
So, like you said, either start to acquireother brokerages, play that game, like,
it's just gonna be really interesting.
The, the next couple moves, um,over the next 18, 24 months.
(41:40):
Yeah, I, I think Rocket, you know,there this move was a, um, you know,
it, it, it 10 xd their ability,they, it 10 XD their servicing.
So the, the, this company theybought was a big servicing, uh,
entity and now Rocket owns all that.
So.
When you think about it, they'rethinking about where the puck
(42:01):
is going, not where the puck at.
When the rates dip, they're gonna justcash out like you wouldn't believe.
Because all those people thatthey're now servicing those loans
on, now they, they have their data,they can get that refi business.
This is a refi move.
I don't think this affects us froma, you know, a residential retail
(42:22):
sales standpoint, really at all.
Uh, the next question I think makessense to ask is, you know, what about
the previous acquisition when they,you know, when, when, when Rocket
acquired Redfin, you know, what arethey gonna do with, with the discount
part of that, that business unit?
Are they gonna expand on it?
Are they gonna maintain itor are they gonna squash it?
(42:44):
We know that, um, they didnot want to be sold for parts.
That was something that the, the CEOmade very, very clear that he went, I
don't, you know, I'm, I'm assuming inthe deal there was something written into
the acquisition deal that they couldn'tbe sold for parts, but like that was
what he knew was gonna be happening.
Like, they were pretty much soldfor parts, you know, they were
(43:06):
sold before, promised that they'renot going to do anything Right.
For a period of time.
Right.
Period of time.
Period.
Time.
Yeah.
So I don't see themtrying to expand on it.
Rocket.
You know, mortgage is like based righthere in C you know, our, our, the
Cavs play out a rocket field house.
Yeah.
And so Dan Gilbert has done amazingthings for the city of Cleveland.
We're forever grateful for him.
(43:28):
Um, but having said that, I don't see,and maybe you guys can push back on us.
I, I don't see a lot of relationshipsthat are, you know, with, with the top
real estate agents in, in the Clevelandor just the Ohio markets, period.
They're not, they don't have deeprelationships with Rocket Mortgage.
You know, they, they, they like, youknow, they like to send their clients
(43:50):
and refer them to mortgage loanofficers that, that have a relationship
that are more one-on-one that handleeverything from beginning to end.
And the experience I've seen withpeople trying to get a mortgage
through Rocket, at least on a retailmortgage, not a refi, is that you're,
you're passed off like three or fourtimes before the closing happens.
So you don't even have, youdon't have one point of contact.
(44:11):
You have like four or five at leastthat's just the experience I've heard.
So you, you know, they're tryingto get to that direct, direct
to the consumer, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And really, I, I just don't seeloan officers having relationships
with real estate agents wherethere's this back and forth passing,
which is what we're used to.
You know, I have a couple loanofficers that I would give my
(44:31):
business to, and that's it.
You know, I'm not, I'm notspreading my business to five,
10 different loan officers.
I want the ones that aregonna give my client the best.
Service rates, response rates, andultimately get it across the finish line.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, um, you know, rocket, you know,they just haven't had the best reputation
for that, at least from, you know, the,the, the Cleveland area, which is, you
(44:53):
know, where, where they're based out of.
So the last couple deals I'vehad with, with, with them
has had been much more fluid.
And, and when you had said that, whatmakes sense too is like, you know, you're,
they wanna work with their home lender,but I mean, now they own Redfin, so.
Yeah, I'm gonna work with what,what, what does a, what does an
agent want more than anything?
Leads.
(45:13):
Yeah.
Whoever gives me leads,controls, where they go.
So if, if they're giving themthe leads and then they get the
mortgage on the other side, nowthey become their preferred lender.
So maybe that's a play too.
Yeah.
Well, interesting.
Zillow wants the mortgage.
You know, you're a Zillow flex agent.
You gotta give Zillow a swing at the bat.
Mm-hmm.
An they want all the swings, all of them.
(45:34):
I bought a, I bought a, uh, mortgagebusiness about two months before that
started, and I'm like some, I mean,you sell 300 houses a year and you
figure you touch at least half of themwith, with buyers, with the mortgages.
And then they do that.
And I'm like, it was rough.
Yeah, I bet, bet.
(45:55):
Absolutely.
Well, well, fellas,fantastic as always, Tim.
Appreciate you.
Um, you know, being able to carve outsome time, jump in here and really come
to what the whole essence of the, theone big fire move has always been about.
Right.
You know, we can, we canindividually burn a pretty.
Bright, you know, flame.
But when we come together,man, it's, it's massive.
And, uh, really appreciate you,you coming in, sharing a lot of,
(46:18):
uh, a lot of knowledge and, anddefinitely perspective that I, I
greatly appreciate and, and respect.
And so I really thank you for, for jumpingin here and everybody listening in.
Make sure reach out, connect with Tim.
Give us, uh, give 'em some love and, uh,we'll catch you guys on the next episode.
(46:38):
See ya.
That's a wrap for today.
I hope you got somethingvaluable from this episode.
If you did, hit follow andvisit John kitchens.coach for
more ways we can work together.
See you on the next episode.
Seven figure success starts whenyou start thinking like a CEO.
Welcome to the John Kitchens Coach podcastexperience as your host, John Kitchens.
Get ready to think bigger andtransform your business into
a path to lasting freedom.
What's happening, everybody, man.
Thank you guys.
Tuning into another episodeof One Big Fire and, uh, I'm
(00:24):
excited to jump in today.
We've got, uh.
Mr. Albi Sta in from the, uh, west sideof the 2 1 6 joining us, and, uh, then
we've got Mr. Tim Stout in the house.
Tim, welcome.
Appreciate you having me guys.
Yeah, man.
So give us a little, giveus a little background, man.
Um, you know, I'm, I'm excitedto chat with you anytime that
somebody's, you know, bring some typeof discipline into, into their life.
(00:46):
And the, the whole, how you do anythingis how you do everything kind of.
Kind of cascades and carries overand, um, you know, definitely
having the martial arts background.
But I, I think just doing anythinghard for a consistent period of
time just just starts to reshapeand reframe your, your mindset.
And we were joking, you know, someof these clowns that we're probably
(01:07):
gonna touch on a little bit earliertoday, they need to, they need to come
roll around with you for a little bit.
One way to get 'em, that's for sure.
So talk to us, man.
So what, uh, what, what, what lifebefore real estate and, and kind of
led you up to present day here with us.
Okay.
A quick overview.
I'm from a super smalltown in east Tennessee.
Uh, like three red lots.
(01:28):
One high school, like small town.
Everybody knows everybody.
Uh, grew up there, you know, loved it.
Poor, but loved my area.
I started boxing.
At a young age, you know, foughtall the up through the ranks.
They did extremely well with that.
And, uh, then I found out, uh, mixedmartial arts, started grappling,
kickboxing, had a few amateur fights.
(01:48):
Went pro super early.
Uh, fought pro up there probablyfor four, four or five years.
And then, uh, I had an opportunity.
I was actually supposed to goto Thailand to teach and, uh.
I was going to go, uh, teach grappling atthis, uh, one of these kickboxing camps.
And then they did something wherethey revoked all the work visas.
So I didn't get to go.
(02:09):
And then like the day after,I got a call from a guy in
Peachtree City in Georgia, I.
And he says, I wanna open an MMAgym on the south side of Atlanta.
He goes, but I wanna do it different.
And he says, most people, whenthey open these gyms, they have a,
a kickboxing coach, a tie boxingcoach, MMA coach, boxing coach,
kids coach, cardio kickboxing coach.
And I was like, okay.
So we want one personthat can do it all I.
(02:30):
And he says, you know, we're headingthrough the grapevine that you're, you're
the guy that can teach about everything.
I'm like, okay.
And they, you know, they offered methis amount of money, which I thought
was obscene because at that time I wasworking in like juvenile detention.
So the money that I was making,you know, it was quite a bit higher
to teach, you know, fighting.
So I'm like, I don't know about this.
So I remember going down here andlooking at it and really loving the area.
(02:53):
And, uh, went back home andI'm like, well, my dad's
gonna taught me how to go in.
You know, he wants me at home.
It's like six hour drive.
I was like, dad, I said,here's what they're offering.
And he goes, go.
He goes, if you don't likeit, you can come back.
And I'm like, okay.
So come down here.
Opened that.
Taught there several years.
Continued to fight.
Opened my gym.
Still have a gym to this day.
(03:14):
It's 16 years old, I think.
And, uh, when I decided toretire from fighting, I. I
was, I wanted to be in sales.
I wanted to get paid for what youdo, not what you're expected to
do or what you're supposed to do.
I didn't know why I was, I had afriend of mine who owned a car lot,
and I'm like, well, maybe I'll do that.
I didn't.
And, uh, one day I was teachinga cardio kickboxing class and had
(03:34):
about probably 30, 30 ladies init and a few guys sprinkled in.
And these three, three girls comein off the street, want to try a
class, and they drove nice cars.
They were dressed nice, they smelt nice.
You know everything that success is.
And I said, what do you ladies do?
And they're like, oh,we working real estate?
I'm like, okay.
It's amazing.
Still never thought about it.
10 minutes in the workout,they quit because it was hard.
(03:57):
They didn't quit because they were tired.
They quit because it was hard.
And I'm like, I remember textingmy wife on my Blackberry and I'm
like, I'm gonna sell real estate.
And she goes, uh, do you thinkyou can sell real estate?
I said, I don't know, butI know I can outwork 'em.
She goes, you're sure as hell outwork 'em.
That's how it started.
Wow.
It is, man, that's, it's wild, right?
Yeah.
(04:17):
And being able to just, just to havethat and, and you see, you learn so much
about yourself doing anything hard, like,like in that experience right there.
So, um.
Yeah, I, you know, I guess, you know, Tim,you know, prior to that and, and kind of
going through that, through that wholeprocess, touch on the hard thing, right.
And, and the hard work thing alittle bit and, and really, you
(04:37):
know, having a, having a backgroundin, in MMA, your entire life, right.
Growing up at early age and justbeing in it, you know, what,
how it just shapes your mind.
Do you just like.
You see things differently.
You think differently, you operatedifferently, you behave differently,
um, and just, just how important itis, having that type of discipline.
(04:58):
The extreme dis discipline is an.
It's crucial for any typeof success in anything.
It doesn't matter what you're doing.
Uh, I remember when I firststarted fighting 'cause I
wasn't the most talented.
I wasn't the most athletic.
I definitely wasn't the smartest.
Uh, my best attributes when I was fightingwas I was tough and I hit really hard.
And that is a recipeto get your ass kicked.
(05:20):
Because you don't quit because thewhole time, like even when I'm losing,
all I gotta do is land one punch.
That's it.
Land one punch.
So I'm taking it, taking it,taking it to land one punch.
So you don't know to give up.
Um, but the doing the hard stuff,like most people know who they
are, but I think it's way moreimportant to know who you're not.
And when you're fighting, yourealize who you're not and who you
(05:42):
are at a high level, and you can.
You can grow on it.
I was training with oneof my guys this morning.
I took him down against the walland I'm hitting him and he's
like, man, I just feel like I gotmy butt kicked the whole time.
I was like, this time last year, Isaid, you would've tried to quit.
I was like, you, you, you becomethe person who doesn't quit now.
(06:02):
That's the best attributeyou could ever learn.
I'd rather you continue to getyour butt kicked every day for
the rest of your life, and havelearned not to ever give up.
That's gonna take you further in lifethan, than, than beating up a, you
know, a 46-year-old retired fighter.
I was like, that's, that is thestrongest attribute I think when
you start learning about yourself.
You, you know, what triggersin your head about quitting or
(06:24):
stopping or pushing forward.
But what it taught me was.
I don't have to have allthe talent in the world.
I just have to outwork you.
And I outwork you in learning, reading,coaches, mentorship, courses, books,
podcasts, and then doing the actual work.
You, you, yeah.
You can't be beat likeyou, you can't be beat.
(06:46):
I would wanna, can I unpack that?
'cause I wrote it down.
At least tried to write a lot ofthat down, Tim, but you know, um.
The, the, the thing that, that, thatis just keeps being ingrained in
my brain is, is that the biggest,you know, there's all these things.
They talk about skill being highlyskilled versus being tenacious.
(07:08):
And I believe tenacity beats,it, beats skill because it's
not the highest skilled person.
Because if the highest skilled personisn't tenacious and, and, and they quit.
The, the person who's not quitting,who's less skilled gonna win.
And that's in, especially in real estate.
But what you said, I, I want youto unpack, know what you're not.
More so than what you know,what your strengths are.
(07:31):
Know what your, were you kindof going with a, know what your
weaknesses are going into it, youknow, know, know and accept what
those are so you can backfill 'em.
Like could you explain a littlebit deeper what you meant by that?
And first, I'm gonna touch on thetenacity part because that's a, on
my, on my shoulder I have can't teachtough and uh, 'cause I can tell people
like I, I can teach anyone to fight.
(07:54):
I can teach any one martial arts.
I can't teach everybody to fight.
'cause you gotta havethat with inside of you.
And you're talking about the tenacity.
I would rather take a fighterthat is a, a five out of a 10.
That has grit and will never giveup over a, over a skilled fighter.
That's a 10 out of a 10.
'cause my guy will beat himin in a long enough runway.
(08:14):
I'll get him conditioned enough,the pressure will be too hard, and
then they'll fold that other guy.
So that tenacity is super crucial.
Yeah.
Uh, so what, knowing who you're not,it, it gives me two, two big, um.
Pluses, two big opportunities.
One, I can backfill itwith knowledge, like I can
understand it, I can explain it.
(08:35):
I can become sharper in thoseareas because you know, you're only
as strong as your weakest link.
And just like a sword, itonly cuts where it's sharp.
So you have to sharpen where you'renot, not sharp, you have to sharp
pun where you're not sharp as well.
But also once you get into building abusiness is like everybody, you know,
I, I do some coaching too, and everybodywants to, I'm gonna hire an ISA.
(08:56):
I'm gonna hire this.
I'm like, you wanna hire an ia?'cause you hate making phone calls.
The the phone, the phones arewhere you make your money.
Like what do you, whatare you not good at?
What we're not having this conversation.
If you're horrible on the phone,you're not building a business.
So trying to teach themwhat they're weak at.
'cause a lot of people wantto, they want to leverage what
(09:16):
they're, uh, they wanna leverage.
What they don't like, and it's like, no,you leverage what you're not good at.
That's how you strengthen the,the whole, the whole group.
Mm, yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
And in the ring, you know, versus realestate, you're fighting for your life.
It's your life on the line.
So it's no pun intended, vitally importantwhen you're in that octagon or ring to
(09:43):
know what your stre, your weaknesses aremore so than what your strengths are.
Because you have to backfillthose weaknesses with your
strengths is what you're saying.
So like, I was literally just on aphone with a recruit yesterday and he
is with a brokerage local and he islike, well, you know, I was telling
him about what we do to help him grow.
We build you a funnel out, webuild your, your, your, um,
(10:04):
automation out and your CRM.
We coach you on how toconvert these leads.
I mean, this is what we've been doingfor, you know, years and years and years.
And he's like, yeah, well my brokeragehas, uh, a similar, um, you know, lead
generation system that we can plug into.
It sounds very, very similar.
And, and the thing is, islike he wasn't consistent.
I said, explain to me your, yourexperience with that lead gen system.
(10:27):
What have you done?
What have you tested?
And he didn't really, he's like, well, Itried it for a little bit and then I quit.
And, and that's, that, that's all Ineeded to know at that point, is that
he's not being coached for the long game.
He's not being coached on howto be consistent and do the
boring shit every single day.
Because that is the number one thingwhen we talk to high producers like
(10:50):
you high just, just high achievers.
It's the same thing every time.
You know?
It's do the same boring stuff, go tothe same boring gym, lift the same
boring weights, hit the same boringspeed bag, whatever it is, you, I
mean, after a while it gets boring.
You know, doing it anyway.
(11:11):
It doesn't mean you stop.
You know, and, and that's the thingthat people just can't figure out,
eat the same boring food, right?
You're hundred percent.
We hear it every single time.
So great distinction, Tim.
Love it, Tim.
Bringing, taking, taking that experienceand, and just everything that compounded
in the, in the habits and the discipline.
Um.
(11:33):
Carried right over into real estate.
Like what was, what was kind of for youand because I know there's some lessons
in there for a lot of agents that arestruggling right now with, with on the
real estate, and there's a ton of agentsthat are struggling and, you know,
obviously lacking, like, like you said,avoiding doing the thing that's necessary.
But like, just from your experienceand, and being able to carry over, um,
(11:55):
everything that you brought from MMArunning, MMA business, being able to carry
that over into real estate, like whatare some of the key foundation that you'd
like, Hey, if you really want to thrive inany type of market condition, this is the,
this is what you need to stay grounded.
This is the foundation youcan have, uh, you can have
results or you can have excuses.
You can't have both.
(12:15):
And, and I press that with,with my guys, like all the time.
My team.
It's like you have to, everybodysays real estate's a number game.
It is, but I have, I have somepeople who have to make 500
calls to get five appointments.
My team leader in Tennessee makes30 and he give five when he talks
to somebody, he's, he's good.
Why he's not making 500 calls andhe'll sell 50 houses this year.
(12:37):
Like he, he's crushing it.
But it's like you, youhave to put in the time.
Effort.
'cause I'm not, I'm nota very, uh, social guy.
Like, I'm not a, I'm not thefriendliest appearance looking guy.
'cause you know, I don't,I don't smile a lot.
And I'm always, if I see youout, I'm trying to assess you.
Like, are you a threat?
Like, am I going to have to deal with you?
And, you know, I'm not all, how are youguys, you know, I'm, I'm not that guy.
(13:00):
So, so I've had to,I've had to learn that.
And, um, what was the,what was the question?
I got off on a tangent.
Yeah.
I just, I just think,you know, looking at.
The what's carried you andgrounded you, the foundation.
How, how does that, can, you know,from, from you, coming from a teacher
standpoint, being able to, to tieand pour back into, you know, agents
right now that are struggling.
(13:21):
It's like, hey, just ground it inthese three foundational things and
let's just do that for, let's do that,for, let's do that for a year, right?
And then, then we can pull our head upand see kind of where the results are.
As long as we're not making excuses.
And these three things are happening.
The, uh, with the, with the foundationis, I, I come from a place when I made
a mistake, I got punched in the mouth.
Or choked or, or armed, you know.
(13:42):
So for me to do massive action withreal estate, it wasn't a big deal.
I could call you, you could tellme whatever you wanted to say.
You're not gonna hurt myfeelings, and I understand that.
So that helped me a lot.
I think the, the three things,the only three things that matters
in real estate is, is prospectingfollow up and appointments.
That is absolutely it, and you just haveto figure out what type of prospecting are
you willing to be committed to for a year.
(14:04):
And you, the only thing thatmatters through prospecting is the
amount of of appointments you get.
And the same thing with follow up,the fortunes and the follow-up.
We all know that.
So, uh, my, I like the phone becauseI, I'm, I got a big social media
following, you know, I've got400,000 something people on Facebook.
I've got, you know, I've got,I've got the big social medias.
But when you're.
(14:25):
That's one to many marketing, but mostpeople don't have that ability to do that.
Mm-hmm.
So they need to be very effectiveat one-to-one marketing.
'cause that's where youbuild relationships, that's
where you build rapport.
Every salesperson I've met, everysalesperson that you've met,
always says, if I get in frontof 'em, I'm gonna close 'em.
Like everybody can do that.
Can you get in frontof them from the phone?
(14:46):
That's where your skillset needs to be.
Or meeting people out on the, you know,like yesterday we taught a class on
how to, you know, if you reached outto three different people a week, you,
you saw 'em in the gas station line.
You saw 'em at Chick-fil-A, like yousaw them and you introduce yourself.
You ask about 'em.
What, what do they do?
You know, how can I help your business?
It's going to come around andyou're gonna be able to say.
I sell real estate.
(15:06):
Like if you know anybody looking tobuy and selling the vest, let me help
you and just going over the extra.
But it's the, it's like you said, it'sthe boring, monotonous activities that
you just continue to not give up on,and you have to be committed to mastery,
and that's when your day gets easier.
I do zero prospecting and I'll sell 60some houses this year while running a
team, and I've got a big investing armtoo, that we're doing a lot of business
(15:29):
over there just because of my socialmedia and the fact that when I see people.
I know how to help them the best.
Mm-hmm.
Because of my experience.
It's the thing, it's the number onething that I see agents that are thriving
versus, that are in, in getting themselvesin deep water is their social media,
uh, presence and consistency over time.
Those that have been consistent,I. 18, 24 months been really
(15:53):
consistent pouring in, adding value.
Um, just either, I mean, obviouslyright, it's, it's, it's educational
or, or entertainment or a mixture.
Maybe a little bit of inspiration,but staying consistent with it there.
Doing really, really well.
Right.
Doing really well with their business.
People wanna be, they wanna bethe social media star more than
(16:13):
they wanna be a real estate agent.
Mm-hmm.
So you're competing against that too.
So that's, and that's difficult,but it's commitment because people
are going to burn out so fast.
You just have to continue to, toput things out there that people
are wanting to see when they thinkreal estate, they think of you.
Yeah.
There was something thatI wanted to ask you then.
Um.
Al we can jump into acouple, a couple headlines.
(16:33):
Um, you know, I mean, we can sithere and talk to Tim all day.
Just Oh, yeah.
Just fascinated about disciplineand, and just being, you
know, how that carries over.
Remember one of the, one ofthe, the best stories and um,
just kind of understanding.
Kind of our role as, as leaders.
And I think it, it, it was, uh, stemmedfrom, um, kind of one of the ground rules
(16:54):
inside of Frank Shamrocks, um, studios.
And it was the, it's the, it's theplus, minus and equal equation.
And saying that when you come in,you gotta find somebody to look up
to, you gotta find a mentor, yougotta find somebody that's gonna, you
know, you know, you're gonna connectwith, that's, that's gonna help you
take that next, that next level.
And then you've got a minus.
You got somebody you're gonna.
(17:15):
You're gonna be that mentor too.
You're gonna teach, right?
And just always say with agentslike, well man, I just got licensed.
Well, how did you get licensed?
There's other people that arewanting to get licensed, how can you
help them, you know, get licensed?
So that's, there's always, there's alwayssomebody that you can lead and mentor.
And, and I know that's, that's, I.Foundational throughout any of the
MMA practices is that, hey, part ofyour requirements to, to level up to
(17:37):
the next, you gotta give back, right?
You gotta teach, you know, justwhere you're at in the process.
You gotta go, you gotta go helpthe little, the little guys, you
gotta help them, you know, yougotta give time right back to them.
You gotta be a mentor.
And then the equal, right?
We gotta find that accountabilitypartner that we're gonna call
each other out day in and day out.
We're showing up together.
We're texting each other at theend of the day, did you do what
you said you were gonna do?
And, and that really stuck with me.
(17:58):
And so for you being in, in that rolefor so long, and you, you, you triggered
a couple things from, uh, Bette David,uh, from Patrick Bette, David, and one
of the, my favorite reels he put out lastyear was the three types of people, right.
Are you, are you interested?
Are you committed?
(18:19):
Or are you obsessed?
Right?
So just kind of evaluating kindof where you're at within, within
the game of real estate right now.
And we talked about this at, atour quarterly event last week at
at at Kitchen Table, and one of thesmartest dudes I know, he's the best.
COO, small, small, um, smallbusiness entrepreneur, uh,
operator that I've ever seen.
(18:39):
Coo he is, he, he is the best andhe is also the one of the smartest
guys I've ever met in my life.
And I take notes everytime I sit down with him.
And that simpledistinction, he goes, fuck.
He goes, I wasn't even interested.
How can I be committed if I'm noteven interested in, in what it is?
And so like even the smartestright little things like click.
But just getting in that onequestion I have for you and this,
(19:03):
this came from Bad David as well.
He talked about it a couple weeks ago.
He was having a conversationwith his, with his boys.
Um, and it was around thetype of advice you get, right?
He talked about the 20%, the 1%,and the 0.1%, and there's a lot of
people out there, a lot of peopleon social media, they'll give you
that to be in the top 20% advice.
(19:23):
I. Right.
Show up every day, work hard, like,hey, master your scripts, get on the
phones, you know, do your follow up.
Set the appointments right.
You get to top 20%.
Just off of the advice thatwe just given in the first 15
minutes of this, of this talk.
But as you work with people at, atso many different levels, like to get
(19:44):
to, like, I don't under, people don'tunderstand the difficulty for what
you've been able to accomplish in MMA tobe able to get to that, to that level.
Right.
I remember, remember when Connorcame on the scene, he only cared
about three things, and one of'em was a black belt and juujitsu.
Right, like people don'tunderstand like he wanted to what?
Be a billionaire, win two world titlesand have a black belt in jujitsu.
Like think about that.
(20:05):
Crazy ass.
Conor McGregor carries aboutthree MA major goals, and one is
to be a black belt in Jiujitsu.
So to get to that level.
What I wanna hear from you that,that real estate agents need to
understand right now in today's market,we, this is day one of Q2 of 2025.
What's the 1% advice and then what'sthe 0.1% advice and that David
(20:26):
was, give example, he's like, youcan't be whatever you want to be.
Son, you'll never playcenter in the in, in the NBA.
You're not seven three.
Right?
Like you're, you're gonna be,you're gonna be five eight.
Like, deal with it.
I'm sorry you, I can'tgive you that advice.
You can't be whatever you wanna be.
And that's the difference in the 20% tothe 1%, and then even the 0.1% advice.
What would you be saying to agentsthat wanna be in the top 1% and
(20:49):
then even another step furtherto be the 0.1% in the market?
What do, what do they need to hear?
Wow.
If you wanna be the, the top 1%, uh.
There's two types of in, in realwe're talking about real estate.
Yeah, there's, there's two typesof marketing and anything that you
do, there's, and I call it the tug.
There's the tugboat.
Marketing and there's the, uh, thelot, the lighthouse marketing tug
(21:13):
boat goes out, grab a boat, goesout, grab a boat that is 98% of all
real estate agents, their entirething, and then their entire career.
Then you come across a few agents who,who, they run the attraction model.
People come to them, theyrun the lighthouse marketing.
I think to be at the 1%,you have to be able to.
To be the person that's attractingthe, attracting the leads, attracting
(21:34):
the deals, attracting the talent,
it's.
It's as easy.
It's easier than anything.
One of my mentors tells me thatyou are best suited to teach the
person you were 10 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
And, and that helps me becauseI knew what I was, I was
hardworking, but I was ignorant.
So I had to become that.
'cause I realized who I wasn't.
(21:54):
And I think the 1% is you have tounderstand leverage or the 0.1% you
have to understand leverage because.
In this game, it's like you can be atop 1% realtor by yourself, but to get
like to that elite level, you have to beable to leverage and you have to be able
to track the right, the right talent.
You have to be able to educate them,train them, and you know anybody that's
(22:17):
in the team building business realizesthat you're gonna have attrition,
you're going to build somebody up forthem just to leave and compete against
you, and you can't be mad at them.
Because that should bewhat you want for them.
Mm-hmm.
And it, that's, that's, that's adifficult, difficult place to be
mentally, is to, uh, build someoneup that's going to eventually compete
with you, because they all will.
Mm-hmm.
(22:37):
I love that.
That's awesome.
It's, it's the exact reason why I, I mean,it's the, probably the biggest reason why
I joined exp and moved my brokerage over.
And, and, and, uh, John and I, youknow, we went down the rabbit hole
for six days, days, days, figuring outlike, is this the right thing to do?
We just opened this brokerage up threeyears ago, two and a half, whatever.
(22:59):
Same.
We did.
Same thing.
Yeah.
And we're gonna move it into this company.
No one's heard of exp, but it wasfrom what you just said, because.
I was, um, coaching my competitionup to go out and compete with me
out, out in, you know, in the field.
And I'm like, man, if I had a bettermodel, I could coach all these people
(23:21):
up and they'll never leave the nest.
They'll just stay right wherewe're at and I'll help them grow.
Because it wasn't like, you know,people that were leaving weren't
upset or mad at me for something.
It wasn't like a breakup.
It was like, Hey, I need tospread my wings and grow.
And I don't think I could do itunder your current business model.
And so they, they, they wereseeking out a business model that
(23:42):
they could expand and, and grow.
And, uh, and now we found that withexp. So, uh, I just wanted to point
that out, that, that, that was, um.
Exactly the reason why we're here rightnow, why I'm on with you for that reason.
Yeah, I did wanna, um, can we talka little bit about some, uh, some
current events, some headlines?
Yes.
I de and I wanna get Tim's perspectiveon a couple of these, so Yes.
(24:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Far away.
Love it.
Yeah.
So, so there's, there's one that,you know, this just made me laugh.
Um, Compass's clients, they, youknow, and you have to wonder if
Compass or they had to have like,gotten their clients together and
say, Hey, you should maybe, you know,um, follow a class action lawsuit.
(24:24):
I just can't, I can't imagine anylike, normal seller, someone who,
you know, they're not in real estate.
They hired an agent to sell theirhome and they put it on the MLS and
someone coming up and convincing them.
It's like.
It's like saying, um, yeah.
Oh, you put your home on the MLS,uh, I'll get to the, the, the punch
(24:45):
is this, they're basically tryingto put a, a clash action lawsuit.
They're trying to recruit enoughhome sellers that sold their home
with a real estate agent that had puttheir home on an MLS system, meaning
exposing it out to the masses that thatactually hurt their values and they
got less money because of it versus.
(25:06):
A strategy that's well known as a pocketlisting, which where the broker just keeps
that, that listing off of the MLS, theypop a sign in the yard or sometimes they
don't, and they basically just expose itto their small network of agents that they
know usually within their own brokerageso they can double side the deal.
That's usually why I've, I'veseen people use pocket listings.
(25:28):
Now you can make the argumentand say, well, if they're, um.
You know, a celebrity type person,someone who, um, ha has a, um, you
know, a large public figure that doesn'twant the public knowing like, Hey,
this is my house, it's for sale here.
Look at all the pictures on the inside.
I get that to a certain degree.
(25:49):
But when you think about like,that is the, the most, that's less
than a fraction of a fraction of afraction of like a 10th of a percent
of your sellers that are out there.
Everyone else.
They're normal folks like us.
We're not celebrities.
You know, we want our, uh, homemarketed for the highest price.
We want the most amount of moneyin the shortest period of time.
(26:11):
That's typically what99.9% of sellers want.
Um, and then you have this little sliverof people is, yeah, I'd like you to sell
my house for the highest amount, but Idon't want everyone to know about it.
Yeah.
It's like, it's like trying to sell.
Let's just say a Ferrari.
Okay, you got a Ferrari.
(26:32):
It's a nice Ferrari.
Your house is like, you know,I'm comparing it to like maybe
your house is like a Ferrari.
You have a Ferrari and you wannasell it, and you decide here.
I don't want everyoneto really know about it.
I don't wanna put it online.
I don't want all thebuyers to know about it.
I'm gonna put it out in my front lawnwith a little sign that says, and I'm
just gonna let anyone who drives by.
(26:54):
Know about my, my, my car for salethat will get me my highest price.
Everyone knows that.
That's absolutely ridiculousto think that you are, you're
gonna command the highest price.
Now, could you?
Sure.
Anything's possible.
You could maybe get someone just,you know, buy luck, drive by my
side street here, away from allthe rest of the traffic and maybe
(27:19):
I would get a, a high price, butmore than likely I'm not going to.
Fetch the highest price becausenot all, the entire consumer pool
isn't even aware that it's for sale.
So, uh, the lawsuit is, is tryingto get enough sellers together to
say, yeah, I got less money for myhouse because I put it on the MLS.
Tim, what do you think about this story?
(27:41):
I've had a few clientswho didn't want listed.
Uh, mostly, you know.
They're going through a divorceand they don't want everybody
to know their business.
You know, small, smallcases like you're saying.
But this goes back to the one ofthe golden rules of marketing.
If I have a hundred pizzas and onebuyer, the buyer decides the price.
But if I have, you know, one pizzaand a hundred buyers, then whoever
makes the pizza describes the price.
(28:02):
The more pizza that I canput my property in front of.
Common sense tells me I'mgonna make more money.
So I think when you're, when you'reallowing things not to get syndicated
or on IDX websites or feeds, I thinkyou're limiting the amount of buyers.
And if you limit the amount of buyers,I think you are limiting your price.
Yeah.
Those competition's, what,what drives everything.
And if there's no, no marketing,there's no competition.
(28:25):
Yeah, it, it's, it's get, you know,the, the amount of just litigation
is really getting out of control.
What, so Al so I guess my questionhere too, Al and, and Tim chime in,
like what I, I keep coming back, right?
Because, um, KT and, and how I operate is,is on the theory of constraints, right?
That's the, just my, I I, that'sthe way I see things, right?
(28:46):
I just, I see constraintsin, in everything.
And where's the constraint,remove the constraint.
And that, that really comes back to.
What's the damn goal?
Because every time the goalchanges, the constraint changes.
So like, what is the real goal here?
Like what is the intent?
I mean, at the end of the day, what,what are they trying to accomplish?
Um, by doing all of this?
(29:10):
I think Compass, I think, I think,'cause I, I worked at Compass before
I, I went independent and, uh.
Robert is a super sharp guy.
Like he's, there's a plan.
If he's doing something, there's a plan.
The dude's sharp and uh, haddinner with him a few times.
Like he's, he's, he's sharp in my opinion.
I think it comes down to thatif, if they can control their own
(29:31):
listings internally, then they makemore money, you know, because they
don't have to sell 'em outside.
That's the only, that's the onlything that makes sense for me.
But I got a small brain, sothere, there's a play somewhere.
No, you're right Tim.
You're spot on.
Actually, I mean, the only, um,the only entity that could benefit
(29:52):
from pocket listings is the brokerthat's pocketing the listing.
Howard Hannah, here in my market.
They've been trying to do it for years.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, um, you know, here's thefunny thing is I'm reading this, this
statement and a statement to InmanCompass says about this lawsuit.
We're proud to supportWashington homeowners who are
(30:12):
asking the right question.
This is the question that theyfeel is the right question.
Why are they the only onesin America without a choice
in how to sell their homes?
Everyone think about that.
Everyone has a choice.
Everyone has a choice.
You can choose to sell for sale by owner.
(30:34):
You could choose to call a discountbrokerage that'll sell it for,
you know, a dollar or whatever.
I mean, you know, I, I worked fora brokerage selling a home for
$595, selling a home for 9 97.
There, there's, there's the discount.
Brokerage is not a new thing.
Consumers have choices they can callanother broker that's a full service
(30:55):
broker that's gonna charge a full fee.
It's the same thing in, you know,there's discounted legal services, or
you can, you can pay an actual skilledattorney to represent you in whatever
you need, uh, legal representation in.
And so the, the, the questionisn't the right question.
Because we know the answer to thequestion is everyone has a choice.
(31:16):
No one's got a gun to their head thatsays you need to put your home in the MLS.
In fact, I don't, and I, I, I think itis MLS specific because in Cleveland,
where I'm from here, our MLS has alwayshad a clause that states if the seller
doesn't want their home put into theMLS, they sign on the listing agreement
that says sellers requesting no MLS.
(31:37):
Uh, input because if we don't havethat signature from the seller, we
actually could get fined as a, as arealtor, you know, that's a member of
the MLS because we didn't put it inwithin 72 hours or whatever the rule is.
We've always had of theming out of that.
Now there might be other MLSs thatdon't have that opt out maybe?
No, I don't think we do.
(31:57):
I don't think we have it.
So you don't have an, like your sellershave No, they have to have it in the
MLS in, in Atlanta, as far as I know.
I've not seen anything thatever says you didn't have to.
Okay.
Yeah, we've had that option.
So maybe that's where the confusionfor me is because we've always
had that option, you know?
Um, we've had a rule that it hasto be put in within 72 hours, but.
(32:18):
A seller could opt out ofit, at least in our MLS.
So maybe that's the case in Washington.
Um, and why they're trying to,you know, uh, sue them there.
But even, even if they're forcedto do it, they still have an
option of going for sale by owner.
They're, they're, I don't know,of one state that has made it
illegal to go for sale by owner.
(32:39):
And so the, the lawsuit Ifeel is, is, um, is frivolous.
I feel it's a waste of time.
Money, resources that canbe put to other things.
And I really would love to see, youknow, some, um, some accountability
in, in this our, our tort laws.
In other words, when you file a lawsuitlike this now, they haven't filed yet.
(32:59):
In, in fairness, they're just tryingto build up enough people to see if
they could do the LA class, Asha,they should be able to reverse sue if
they lose for all the legal fees ofall the, you know, the, the, the, the
defendants that are having to defendthemselves from these frivolous lawsuits.
Um.
What are your guys' thoughts?
(33:19):
I agree.
I mean, I agree with you.
I do too, man.
It's, it just feels like youneed to have a legit case.
Yeah.
And if you don't, then they need tobe ramifications and, and everything.
Not just real estate base, like, 'causethere's so many people that are just so
you frivolous throwing things out thereand trying to sue people and stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
That's what I feel.
And I think it's a coupledifferent things, right?
(33:39):
I think you got attorneys trying topush, see where they can grasp and,
and make something happen, and thenobviously be encompass kind of what
is, you know, definitely going alongand like what's, what's their intent.
Um, Alice switch over a little bit tothe, the other legal thing that that
popped up that we were chatting about.
Um, back to the, uh, the sweetheartdeal, talking about like, yeah, sweet.
(34:01):
What are they trying to do?
So, yeah, ERT and exp. Um, the,uh, uh, you know, were negotiating
settlements on the Gibson case last year.
Um, and, and, uh, for whateverreason negotiations broke down.
It says the company's insteadmediated nationwide settlements.
With attorneys for plaintiffs andCooper agreeing to pay 8.5 million
(34:23):
and 34 million respectively.
The Missouri Court is currentlyweighing claims by the Gibson plaintiffs
that exp and ERT engaged in reverseauction or a legal strategy in which.
A defendant ne negotiates a settlementwith attorneys who are willing to
accept settlements amounts less thanthe attorneys in a separate case.
(34:45):
So, uh, what I'm in English, how I'minterpreting that is that they, they
negotiated a settlement for the samecase with a different set of attorneys
that were representing a different set ofplaintiffs, and that carried over to the.
To the, um, to the, the G Gibson case.
And they're fighting that.
I guess that's how I'm, and Icould be wrong by the way, um, but
(35:08):
that's how I'm interpreting it.
'cause it is a little bit confusing.
But they negotiated a great deal and thenthey're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You need to be paying way more than that,even though both sides agreed to it.
Um, I, I think, you know, the, theplaintiffs were like, wait, wait, wait.
They're paying all this over here.
We negotiated, you know,too low of an amount.
(35:29):
We want, you know, we, we wanna redo.
Basically.
And, um, you know, I don't, Idon't know how you guys interpret
it, but that's how I do.
And it's, um, again, more, moreridiculous lawsuits just being flown.
Absolutely ridiculous.
What it, it made me laugh.
I was Rogan said something the otherday talking about, you know, you know,
(35:49):
I was, you know, it was just his, hisobsession with pool and it's like.
We're playing a hundred dollars tablesand I beat you five in a row, and then
now you want to come in and all, youknow, a 500 table to get it all back.
Like in one, in one, one game.
No, it ain't that way.
You got beat, like, like deal with it.
And that's what it feels likeis like they got beat and they
just don't wanna deal with it.
(36:10):
That, you know, they're over therepouting, kicking, kicking the rock.
It's like poor losers.
Absolutely poor losers.
What it sounds like, and it's, yeah.
And it's horrible because it's, Ihope they didn't have the same lawyers
that negotiated that following thislawsuit, because obviously Yeah,
it's actually in your backyard, Tim.
Um, it, you know, so what it's saying isthat Hoop defendants, exp ERT and Mark
(36:33):
Spain real Estate, um, and the AtlantaCommunity Real Estate have motions for
preliminary approval of their settlements.
It's currently pendingin the Georgia Court.
And according to Cohen, the Gibsonplaintiffs won't suffer any harm if
they're, if they aren't allowed totransfer the case because they'll be
(36:53):
able to fully litigate their issue duringthe court settlement approval process,
including by raising objections tosettlements on reverse option grounds.
So what I, what I think is happening isthey want to switch, um, jurisdictions.
To help their chances ofswitch, you know, to, to getting
more money outta this thing.
And the court, the court said,no, we're not allowing that.
(37:15):
Um, what's Mark Spain have to do with it?
Uh, he was part of it as well, but heweren't, he wasn't mentioned in the
headline, but apparently he is oneof the plaintiffs with us that agreed
to, um, the settlement originally.
So interesting.
Interesting stuff.
Interesting stuff.
Um, one last item.
I know we've been talking about this, Aland Tim would love to get your take on it.
(37:36):
We, uh, we talked a couple weeksago about when, when, uh, rocket
acquired Redfin and we know, um, itwas, it was, it was pretty crazy.
Same day.
The announcement, um, was, uh, same dayMike Dre released his weekly newsletter
and he was talking about Right.
You know, we've all been in pursuitof the, of the holy grail, right.
Of just, um, you know,complete everything in-house.
(38:01):
We've been working on thatfor, for, for 20 years.
Right.
We've all been trying to chase the,you know, the holy grail to where you
control the whole consumer experience andnow really starting to see it play out.
And so interesting to see, you know,Redfin's move with, um, you know, with
acquiring, um, feels like a, a at a, at a.Had an extreme discount of going to get to
(38:24):
go get Redfin, and then coming back hereon top and acquiring Mr. Cooper group,
excuse me, for 9.4 billion, puts themat managing 2.1 trillion in mortgages.
Basically serving one in sixmortgages in the US at this point.
(38:50):
So with that move, uh, and, and Iwould love to get, I had Kurt Sewell.
I asked him, I, I tookhi, got his take on it.
And um, the gentleman that alwayscomes on the top of, um, on, on
whatever Rocket does owns whateverthe, the other largest, uh, mortgage
company, they're both there in Detroit.
Owner of, owner of the sons,um, Gilbert buys the, the calves
(39:14):
and he goes, buys the sun.
So he is like always trying to one top.
So it's, it's gonna be really interestingto see a couple more of these moves as,
as they kind of jockey in position to, totry to ultimately, you know, take over the
whole experience and getting, especiallyon the, on the mortgage side of things.
My take.
They're trying to get to, to, tothe consumer, get to the buyer,
(39:34):
get, get that done before it'shanded off to the real estate agent.
As we're seeing a lot ofthe, the handoffs, um.
You know, on, on a highreferral basis back to, you
know, um, those opportunities.
So like, what, what,what are y'all thinking?
What are you seeing?
I mean, is this just more of, ofwhat's to come as things start to,
(39:55):
um, align moving into the future andthe consolidation and really just that
whole vertically integrated, you know.
Putting all the piecestogether under one roof?
I think so.
I think they're, they're just goingto, like you said, if they can, if
they control the, if they control thecustomer, they control everything.
And just like with Zillow, you know, I,I fired Zillow the first of the year.
(40:16):
I've been Zillow's number oneconverting agent in Georgia for the
year since they started a flex program.
And the first of the year I firedabout 15 agents who wasn't producing
where my team needed them to.
And we fired Zillow.
And Zillow was taking like.
44% or something of a commission.
And when you're running ateam that's a 50 50 split.
(40:36):
That's a big kick.
I think Zillow and other, these, theseother ones are running these, these,
you know, big commission split models.
I think it's going forthem to be able to work it.
I think they're going tohave to buy brokerages.
I think that's their next play,because the team splits do not work.
You know, with, with, with Zillow and,and Redfin will start the same thing
because I'm sure Zillow, I mean, Zillow's,uh, has looked up their search traffic.
(40:57):
Zillow is.
365.8 million monthly visitsand Redfin is 87 million.
So it's fine, you know,exponentially bigger, but it's
what are they going to do with it?
Right?
That's that, that's the question.
But they want to control the customer now.
They control the mortgage, theycontrol the lead given, and, and
they're not, they're not gonna bein the business of selling leads.
(41:18):
They're gonna do the same thing Zillowdoes, if I would, if I was them.
Yeah, I see, I see more of that going,that go in that direction, right?
Being able to have, have the handoffand charge, be able to charge more.
So, like you said, either start to acquireother brokerages, play that game, like,
it's just gonna be really interesting.
The, the next couple moves, um,over the next 18, 24 months.
(41:40):
Yeah, I, I think Rocket, you know,there this move was a, um, you know,
it, it, it 10 xd their ability,they, it 10 XD their servicing.
So the, the, this company theybought was a big servicing, uh,
entity and now Rocket owns all that.
So.
When you think about it, they'rethinking about where the puck
(42:01):
is going, not where the puck at.
When the rates dip, they're gonna justcash out like you wouldn't believe.
Because all those people thatthey're now servicing those loans
on, now they, they have their data,they can get that refi business.
This is a refi move.
I don't think this affects us froma, you know, a residential retail
(42:22):
sales standpoint, really at all.
Uh, the next question I think makessense to ask is, you know, what about
the previous acquisition when they,you know, when, when, when Rocket
acquired Redfin, you know, what arethey gonna do with, with the discount
part of that, that business unit?
Are they gonna expand on it?
Are they gonna maintain itor are they gonna squash it?
(42:44):
We know that, um, they didnot want to be sold for parts.
That was something that the, the CEOmade very, very clear that he went, I
don't, you know, I'm, I'm assuming inthe deal there was something written into
the acquisition deal that they couldn'tbe sold for parts, but like that was
what he knew was gonna be happening.
Like, they were pretty much soldfor parts, you know, they were
(43:06):
sold before, promised that they'renot going to do anything Right.
For a period of time.
Right.
Period of time.
Period.
Time.
Yeah.
So I don't see themtrying to expand on it.
Rocket.
You know, mortgage is like based righthere in C you know, our, our, the
Cavs play out a rocket field house.
Yeah.
And so Dan Gilbert has done amazingthings for the city of Cleveland.
We're forever grateful for him.
(43:28):
Um, but having said that, I don't see,and maybe you guys can push back on us.
I, I don't see a lot of relationshipsthat are, you know, with, with the top
real estate agents in, in the Clevelandor just the Ohio markets, period.
They're not, they don't have deeprelationships with Rocket Mortgage.
You know, they, they, they like, youknow, they like to send their clients
(43:50):
and refer them to mortgage loanofficers that, that have a relationship
that are more one-on-one that handleeverything from beginning to end.
And the experience I've seen withpeople trying to get a mortgage
through Rocket, at least on a retailmortgage, not a refi, is that you're,
you're passed off like three or fourtimes before the closing happens.
So you don't even have, youdon't have one point of contact.
(44:11):
You have like four or five at leastthat's just the experience I've heard.
So you, you know, they're tryingto get to that direct, direct
to the consumer, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And really, I, I just don't seeloan officers having relationships
with real estate agents wherethere's this back and forth passing,
which is what we're used to.
You know, I have a couple loanofficers that I would give my
(44:31):
business to, and that's it.
You know, I'm not, I'm notspreading my business to five,
10 different loan officers.
I want the ones that aregonna give my client the best.
Service rates, response rates, andultimately get it across the finish line.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, um, you know, rocket, you know,they just haven't had the best reputation
for that, at least from, you know, the,the, the Cleveland area, which is, you
(44:53):
know, where, where they're based out of.
So the last couple deals I'vehad with, with, with them
has had been much more fluid.
And, and when you had said that, whatmakes sense too is like, you know, you're,
they wanna work with their home lender,but I mean, now they own Redfin, so.
Yeah, I'm gonna work with what,what, what does a, what does an
agent want more than anything?
Leads.
(45:13):
Yeah.
Whoever gives me leads,controls, where they go.
So if, if they're giving themthe leads and then they get the
mortgage on the other side, nowthey become their preferred lender.
So maybe that's a play too.
Yeah.
Well, interesting.
Zillow wants the mortgage.
You know, you're a Zillow flex agent.
You gotta give Zillow a swing at the bat.
Mm-hmm.
An they want all the swings, all of them.
(45:34):
I bought a, I bought a, uh, mortgagebusiness about two months before that
started, and I'm like some, I mean,you sell 300 houses a year and you
figure you touch at least half of themwith, with buyers, with the mortgages.
And then they do that.
And I'm like, it was rough.
Yeah, I bet, bet.
(45:55):
Absolutely.
Well, well, fellas,fantastic as always, Tim.
Appreciate you.
Um, you know, being able to carve outsome time, jump in here and really come
to what the whole essence of the, theone big fire move has always been about.
Right.
You know, we can, we canindividually burn a pretty.
Bright, you know, flame.
But when we come together,man, it's, it's massive.
And, uh, really appreciate you,you coming in, sharing a lot of,
(46:18):
uh, a lot of knowledge and, anddefinitely perspective that I, I
greatly appreciate and, and respect.
And so I really thank you for, for jumpingin here and everybody listening in.
Make sure reach out, connect with Tim.
Give us, uh, give 'em some love and, uh,we'll catch you guys on the next episode.
(46:38):
See ya.
That's a wrap for today.
I hope you got somethingvaluable from this episode.
If you did, hit follow andvisit John kitchens.coach for
more ways we can work together.
See you on the next episode.
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