#727: Leading Smarter with Fractional Talent & EOS with Kristyn Drennen

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Seven figure success starts whenyou start thinking like a CEO.
Welcome to the John Kitchens Coach podcastexperience as your host, John Kitchens.
Get ready to think bigger andtransform your business into
a path to lasting freedom.
What is happening?
Kristen?
Great.

(00:21):
So great to see you.
Um, I was, you know, kind of, kind ofthinking back as getting ready for,
for you to jump in here and just.
Kind of at, at that point to where I,I know for us, when we, on the real
estate side of things really startedto piece, piece things together
was when we really fully embraced.

(00:44):
Strategy in strategic planning andwhat the heck does this even mean?
And, you know, really diving deep.
The book for us was mastering theRockefeller Habits, Verne Harnish's work.
And really just, just embracing it and,and just being a student, just having
faith in the process, just trusting theprocess because it allowed us to give
a, get a level of clarity to, to like.

(01:07):
Really get a solid plan in place.
I mean, we learned so much and just,you know, navigating the 90 day,
you know, work cycles and, and notdrifting and, you know, we spent.
Seven, eight years, just, uh,you know, in, in Vern's world,
um, just, just following tothe tee, scaling up comes out.

(01:29):
Just really embracing it and,you know, it got really complex.
I mean, it was like a lot of stuff waschallenging and especially what we were
learning and then adapting and then alsoapplying on the coaching side of things
back to other, other real estate agents.
It was, it was way, it was just hard.
It was just flat out hard and then comesalong, you know, Gino's work with, with,

(01:52):
um, you know, obviously for most peoplegetting introduced through traction,
being able to, you know, start to applythe tools that he provides in there.
And then really goingdown the EOS rabbit hole.
Um, and, and, and obviously the,um, you know, getting connected with
Jamie and Strategic Coach gettingintroduced to you and, and how you
really played an integral part in.

(02:13):
You know, what we were puttingtogether and, and trying to do and,
and really pouring into, you know,my right hand as I see even, even
in the real estate space, right?
A lot of, you know, um, on the,on the way up and especially they
get into that million to 3 millionkind of, kind of in that, where
most people just get stuck phase.

(02:35):
That's it.
I mean, that's just kind ofwhere they, they, they tap out
their capabilities, but, um.
You know, so responsible forproduction and you gotta rely on,
on having that, that that right handperson that can, that can execute.
And understanding, you know, the threecharacter types in any endeavor, right?

(02:56):
You gotta have somebodythat has the ideas.
You gotta have somebody that executesthe ideas, but you also gotta have
somebody that manages the ideas.
Hmm.
And you know, I guess by what, bydefinition, if you, if you wear all
three of those hats, you're a solopreneurand you know, coach, you know, the
top team in Penn, you know, in pa.
And.

(03:16):
They operate as a, as a solopreneur.
I mean, they have for a long timebecause you got, you know, the
guy at the, you know, head ofthe company that's also executing
the ideas and managing the ideas.
And I'm like, bro, yourealize you're a solopreneur.
And it's like, you know, it'sjust one of those things.
It's like you realize when you canlet go and you get that right hand

(03:36):
that can just execute for you.
You can move at lightning speed.
And so it was really, it was reallycool being able to, you know.
Me wanting to be able to pour,I just didn't have the time.
But Ben, you know, introduced to you tobe able to, to come in and, and help us
lay the foundation, you know, the EOSframework and just, you know, getting
everybody in sync, getting everybodyon the same page is, uh, so key.

(04:00):
Oh, such a good introduction to kindof kick off our time together, John.
And, you know, it was interesting gettingstarted with your team because sometimes
when I'm getting into these engagements.
Clients don't have much of an ideaof what it should look like, and they
haven't explored other operating systems.
I will say that your comments on scalingup, that's something that I have heard

(04:23):
from different clients, that theyfeel like scaling up is um, they feel
like it's a bit oversized for whatthey initially need, and it's what.
Pushes many people over to Traction andthe entrepreneurial operating system.
So Traction by Gino Wickman is the book.
Anyone who's like, whatare they talking about?
I recommend that's where youbegin, is by reading Traction
and in traction they explain theentrepreneurial operating system.

(04:46):
And I will say, you know,as someone who came from.
Everything from small business to largecorporate international environments.
Um, everything I write inthere, I was like, well, duh.
Like this is just the basics, but it'sreally beautifully and simply packaged.
And we know that simple doesn'tnecessarily always translate into easy.

(05:06):
And to support that, that journey and helppeople really, our business owners, really
maximize how they're using the system.
Because we hear many stories of,oh, well, I read it and then I, I
told someone on my team to take thebook and go figure out how to do it.
So I. One of the things that we do is wework with companies who are attempting
to do that, go through what we call aself-led implementation, and we do help

(05:29):
them get more, um, depth and width outof the system and really maximize that.
Your team was unique too, because youalready had a really good team in place.
So to your point, even when wehave the right people arguably
sitting even in the right seats.
The power of getting them mobilized arounda common vision and executing together.
It's really that concept of likerowing in the same direction.

(05:51):
Mm-hmm.
And even the best people can't dothat without our, our guidance at
the leadership level to really pointthem and then keep those bumpers up
on the bowling lane, if you will.
So.
Yeah.
No, it is, and and I appreciate thatbecause, you know, as, as visionary
leaders that, that understand theframeworks, but like are also we, you

(06:15):
know, out mowing yards every day, right.
And do doing the work, it's hard to,to give the time allocation required.
But being able to have a team thatyou're able to get them in their right
lanes so that they can, that theycan do their thing and, and for us to
get out of the way and let them do,to do their thing is, is really key.

(06:36):
And I know, you know, obviously with Jamieand, and coming in and, and kind of where,
where you really, you know, help and withyour new endeavor, your new company, um.
Really on the fractional side of things.
And you know, a lot of people,they, they hear that, right?
Like we used to, you know, when wewere building the coaching company,
we would always say, Hey, you needa jk, which was integrated before an

(06:57):
integrator was even, was even a thing.
And uh, you can unpack and define that.
Um, and, and so how do you, and,and, and I know you, you, you have.
Many different industries, right?
So you see, you know, um, commonthemes across multiple different,
different industries, which I love.
Right?
That's, I think that's why.

(07:18):
I've always been so drawn to Jay Abrahamand the way he thinks and you know,
just being able to see so many differentangles in so many different industries.
'cause that's, I just, I believethat's where the exponential growth
can happen, is applying what worksin a different industry into yours.
Um, that everybody else is just doingthe incremental little things and you
bring a whole new idea into your industryand that's where you see the growth.

(07:42):
But, um.
Small business entrepreneurs, right?
They, they tend to like the solopreneur.
They, they tend to grabon and do, do everything.
Um, what, where do you see, um.
They feel that, oh man, I just,I, I gotta get a full-time person.
I gotta wear this hat untilI can get that person.

(08:04):
It's just a lack of, of knowledgeand awareness that you can go get
fractional talent that can, youknow, in the fractional time, do
more than what you can probably thinkthat you can bring in full time.
A fractional person can doit, you know, 10, 20, 30 times
better, faster, um, in a smaller.

(08:27):
Incremental timeframe.
Yeah, it's interesting because itis this, I would say, newer little
cottage industry that has popped upsince a little bit like in the midst
of COVID, and it's great for as far aswho we see going into fractional work.
We see very powerful, widely anddeeply experienced executives.

(08:47):
Who specialize in certain areasof the business or in a certain,
you know, tool set or methodologygoing into this fractional space.
So what the heck is it?
So it's really that bridge betweenI have to do everything myself and
I'm ready to hire a full-time personat a pretty substantial salary.
And we're seeing the, the costto bring in someone that has.

(09:07):
That level of experience that yourbusiness probably needs, you're
either gonna sacrifice on the talentand the expertise of the person to
fit it into your budget, or you'regonna end up, you know, paying
for maybe even more than you need.
That's something I hear as well, right?
I'm paying this massive salary, but Ireally just need kind of this piece of it.
So fractional becomes this beautifulbridge because to your point,

(09:31):
a fractional executive, and inour case it's a fractional COO.
Or EOS integrator.
We offer both services.
And the reason we do that isbecause we don't work exclusively
with companies that run on EOS.
So we do have our own operatingsystem tool set, and we're capable
and knowledgeable of others, butwe bring this person in and I
want you to think of them as, yes.

(09:53):
Fraction of the time.
Fraction of the cost, but full horsepower.
And I think that's really important.
I often equate it.
Um, I used to work in, in technologyfor what's called a managed service
provider, and that's a businessthat one technology team serving
hundreds of businesses, right?
Because these businessesdon't necessarily need like.

(10:13):
The full gamut of a full tech team, orthey can't afford it, so they contract
a managed service provider to handle it.
And we used to joke that we'rehiring these guys and the difference
between what they get exposed toknowledge-wise across all these different
technology environments compared toworking in a singular environment.
Environment.
Being a CIS admin for onecompany, it's like human years.

(10:36):
To dog years.
So since I've been doing this work, it'sincredible the learning curve because
I'm exposed to so many businesses andindustries and different personalities
and leadership, team dynamics and, andcomplexity, um, and stages of growth.
It's like I've got this frontrow seat, like real time
mastery of all of these things.

(10:58):
And that's what our, the fractionalpeople get to then take to your
point, and bring it into thesebusinesses to share that knowledge.
Because often we find that withinindustry, what do we all do?
We go to our industry events.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And so we start to hear a lot of thesame messaging and same talk tracks.
I'm a huge fan of that becauseconsistency is a. Superpower.

(11:19):
So I love the guys that are banging thedrum on the industry specific stuff that's
mission critical and you wanna couplethat so that you don't get too stuck
inside of the tunnel looking at yourown stuff and your own headlines all the
time and see like what else is out there.
There are so many relevant.
Professional service industries thatwe work with that are facing the same

(11:39):
types of challenges as real estateand to see how those things can like
intermingle and the way that we canbring value to the real estate industry.
Like, Hey, here's what's goingon over in this little corner.
You may not have thought to lookthere, but we're gonna bring that
into you also becomes really useful.
What is, what is the biggestchallenge that you see and, and maybe.

(12:01):
I can kind of give a contrast,just small business in general to.
You know, to what the real estate agents,the real estate profession is, is facing.
It's a great question, and I'veworked with quite a few large real
estate teams across the country overthe last four, four years or so.
So I've seen everything from the smaller.

(12:23):
A, you know, team that is the highproducing agent owned, they're trying
to get out of so much production,but still really being pulled back
into that because they're the biggestrevenue driver in the, in the firm.
Mm-hmm.
And then I've also seen teams that havedone a really beautiful job of embracing.
This type of methodology when they werehitting that growth ceiling that you

(12:43):
talked about earlier, and they reallydoubled down on putting an operating
system foundation in place that enabledthem to get out of that function of
production inside of their business.
And when we say elevate, we're elevatingin them into what we call more of
that visionary founder, uh, position.

(13:04):
And it doesn't mean that you just sit upon the observation deck and kind of look
out at what everyone's doing all day.
That's a bit of a misnomer.
It's actually a very active position,critical to the future of the business
because they're the person that isreally doing the vision casting.
Mm-hmm.
They're predictingwhere we're going to go.
They're making sure, like they, theyknow where that big, long-term target

(13:25):
is, and they're continuing to pullthe rest of the team back to it so
that everything that we're executingon is aligned with putting us toward.
Vision.
So it's not like a passive, whenI say I'm gonna free you from
your business, it's not becauseI want you out of the business.
That is a misconception.
It is that I actually just want youin the right seat for the business.

(13:49):
Mm-hmm.
And if we do it right, then it issomething that creates a reduction in
what we call, um, owner dependency.
And it creates increase then invalue growth of your business and the
freedom that you're feeling from it.
So that's one of the things thatwe're super passionate about when
we're starting in early days of theseengagements, because we need to create.

(14:13):
A visionary seat that is exciting andthrilling and compelling that the,
the owner actually wants to be in.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
And um, you know, uh, thanksto, thanks to Miss Tina call.
Um, definitely really embrace, youknow, the working genius concepts.

(14:34):
And, and you know, I'm workingwith a, um, one of the.
Top teams in, in Canada and they're, theywent through a massive merger bringing
multiple teams together to form, which nowis gonna be the number one, the number one
team for their brokerage in all of Canada.

(14:56):
And you're, you're, you're, you'restarting to bring in these d
different character types and it'slike, I'm used to this and now
we're getting this, and I'm like.
Whereas our working genius Yeah.
And, and really going throughand they're like, uh, that's why.
And really having thataha and I think when.
You find that visionary role, right?
The true, the true visionariesthat even even, you know, hit the

(15:18):
w have a lot of WRI on the workinggenius in their, in their genius.
Um, it starts to explain a lot, right?
And it's like, listen, you know,you realize part of your job is.
Ideas.
Part of your job is trying to, youknow, navigate into the future.
Part of your job isstrategic relationships.
That becomes your job.

(15:40):
And I think, you know, the, you know,heads of companies and visionaries that
I've had the opportunity to work with.
When you really go through that andunderstand that, that's part of.
They're, they're vital functionsof what they have to accomplish.
To your point, it's freeing.
They're like, ah, okay, thisis what I'm supposed to do.
Like, yeah, that's whatyou're supposed to do.

(16:00):
Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
Now we, now we compliment thepeople around you to help bring
those ideas down to earth, downinto, down to, you know, execution.
So it's, it, it really is fun, youknow, having that framework to be
able to, to help, you know, navigate.
You know, entrepreneurs and you know,these, these business leaders through,

(16:20):
to me, I mean the same as you, it'sjust, it's really fulfilling to when,
you know, they have those light bulbmoments to be able to, you know, just
catch that little, that, that onelittle, you know, spark for them.
And it's just, it's really fulfilling.
So I. Unpack in integratora little bit, right?
Like, like the clear distinction and,and kind of who's ideally fit for,

(16:44):
you know, the, those type of roles.
And listen, I was an integrator.
Grew into the visionary role and itwould be hard, but I could probably
in go back into the integrator mode.
But, um, I would love for you to justkind of, 'cause you see it much more
than I do, but being able to really,the, the differences and kind of what
to look for and, and kind of whatyour motive is and kind of what your.

(17:08):
Best lane for you to jump into.
Yeah.
So there's so much to unpack there.
So I think we're gonna have some funwith this part of the conversation.
So first of all, I love that you broughtup working genius because it takes the
personal nature out of the friction thatwe may be feeling even within ourselves.
So when we are the ones whoare responsible as the owner of
the business, the leader of theorganization, and we have to not only.

(17:31):
Create and cast and reinforce andfortify vision of where we're going.
But we also have to be the one, youknow, driving the car with that map.
That's a really complicated thing.
Back when there used to be actual maps.
Like if you remember your parents,like one person's a navigator, one
person's driving, and you don't wantthe same person doing the both things.
So I was, I was helping a littlebit of homework last night.

(17:53):
We had the ruler out, the map out.
Oh gosh.
And the kids were like, what is this?
What is this?
I'm like, I'm like literally like,there's no need to to understand
this, but this is what this is.
Yeah.
This is a, a map you can buy atlases.
Oh my gosh.
So funny.
I wonder if you can even getmaps at gas stations anymore.
Anyway, whole other thing.
But visionary is the one with the map.

(18:14):
Right?
Here's where we're going folks, and here'sthe route we've carved out to get there.
And oftentimes they then have to,it's almost like sock puppets.
Like, I'm gonna create the vision andnow I have to go and figure out how
we're gonna get all those things done.
And to your point, using a toollike Working Genius, I love that one
in particular because it's simple.
It's not a behavioral assessmentor a personality test, it's

(18:37):
not another one of those.
It's literally called aproductivity assessment.
Mm-hmm.
And a productivity tool.
So to your point.
The CliffNotes version for everyoneout there is we need to invent,
we need to activate what we inventand we need to implement what
we've activated with the team.
So those were kind of the threehigh level phases of working genius.

(18:58):
And when you take the assessment,basically tells you, you know, these
are the six layers of the genius.
And you're either someone whoyou know, they give you your top
two that are most innate to you.
And it's not that.
It's like these are your.
Um, only things you can do.
Mm-hmm.
It's your default position.
It's what you tend to do and how youtend to approach information issues,

(19:21):
problems as they're coming at you.
So if you're not sure which you are,and yet you're sitting in both the
visionary and the integrator, see,you're responsible for the whole gamut.
You're not sure where you naturally go.
I would encourage, it's like thebest 25 bucks you can possibly spend.
It is the best.
Seriously, go take it.
And here's my other pro tip.
Don't read the book first.

(19:42):
So there is a book, the SixTypes of Working Genius.
I would agree.
Patrick Lin, don't bias yourselfby reading the book first.
Actually go take the assessment,then go read the book, and when
you take the assessment, there isa bit of honor system I would say.
I've seen people basically like.
You know, BS their way around it tobe what they think their boss wants

(20:02):
them to be, or what they personallyfeel obligated to be for the business.
Hmm.
So be raw and honest with yourself.
Try and eliminate distractions and bias ofwhatever you're working on or stress with.
Like, if you've got a lot of stuffgoing on between the ears, thinking
about work, find a more quieted.
Time, post meditation orprayer, whatever you like to do.

(20:22):
It'd be a great time to take that,to get the most honest results.
I had to take it twice becauseI, I did kind of fudge it
a little bit on the first.
I love, I love yourdistinction about that.
Right.
You know, we've been, you know, reallyon the Lencioni train for, for, you know,
well, we had one of our mentors that,um, we were in his private mastermind.

(20:44):
And, um, it was, it was claymask, um, with Infusionsoft.
And, and so we would go out to, we hadto fly out to, to Arizona and there
were only like four or five companiesin there and everybody had to present
on, on the day what the problem was.
Chris, like three times in a rowhe told us to read the Advantage.

(21:07):
We didn't read it.
Yeah.
And then we finallyread it and we're like.
My gosh, we would've solvedthese problems a year ago if we
would've just listened to you.
So that was the lesson, like, so whenanybody's like kind of working through,
when working through a situation and theysay, Hey, go read this and check this out.
Like, I immediately stopped get thebook just from that lesson, right.
It, it could have collapsed so much time.

(21:28):
And then so it just been studentsof of Lencioni ever since.
And I was in the airport when, whenthe six Working Genius book came
out, I grabbed the book and I startedreading it on the plane and I'm like.
Put it down, put it in my bag, and Iwas just like, and then, and, and so
your distinction on take the assessmentand then dive deep in the book.

(21:48):
Spot on, write things, right Order.
That is the sequence.
I think it's really important becauseof the way that it's just too easy
for us to kind of like, you know,massage the results to get what we want
because we also have self perspec selfperspective on who we think we are.
And if anything threatens that,that can be challenging for us.

(22:09):
So I actually, in thinkingabout the working genius and.
It's interesting watching some of thesebig real estate teams merge together.
I've been following a lot of what?
Like what?
Like the whistle beerteam coming together now.
Right.
And all the fun that they'rehaving on social media and stuff.
And you're seeing a fewof these kind of mergers.
Mm-hmm.
If you will happen, whichis a beautiful thing.

(22:30):
I'm a huge fan and has to be donewith a ton of intention because
you're not just pulling together likerevenue, you're pulling together.
Culture and leadership styleand methodology and behavior
and all of these other things.
So it's gonna be really fun to watch howthose two guys, pardon me, who were so,
uh, intentional about that type of stuff.

(22:51):
Like how they all, any of theseexamples, how they come together, but
thinking about, um, something that'sa basic, uh, foundational, I would
say practice in EOS that's reallyimportant is this concept of, um.
You're allowed to sit in multiple seats,but you can't have two people in one seat.

(23:12):
So the visionary seat is one box,if you will, on what we call the
accountability chart, which islike an org chart on steroids.
Then you've got one integrator seatand one sales, one ops, one finance.
You know, depending on size andscope of your organization, you
can have other stuff kind of, uh,mixed in there if necessary to
your, to your industry and business.

(23:32):
But when we think about a visionary.
Integrator like yourself that wassitting technically in both seats.
Mm-hmm.
It's not that that's against the rules,but the power move is to figure out
which of these seats is the right one.
For me, and for anyone who's listeningto this right now saying, well,
I'm, I'm totally great at both.
You might be.
'cause honestly, John, you werereally good at both functions.

(23:54):
Mm-hmm.
You were capable.
Mm-hmm.
But there's a really important distinctionbetween can and should and actually
sitting in the seat that you are bestsuited to sit and to serve the business.
Now what we often find is like,it's that sock puppet conversation
again of, you know, visionary andintegrator, and I have to do both.
There's people out there that may haveto still do both for, for a while.

(24:18):
Um, but the power move, when youthink about deciding which of those
seats you really wanna sit in.
It's likely the visionaryseat in real estate teams.
And the reason is most salespeople, reallygood salespeople, which most of our team
leaders and creators like Tina, she'sgreat at sales because she's creative

(24:39):
and relationship based, and those aresome really be, and she's inventive.
Mm-hmm.
Really beautiful characteristicsfor a powerful visionary.
Um.
But because they've also sat in thatintegrator seat and they've had success
in that integrator seat, they'regoing to struggle to let go of it.
So I just wanna speak to anyonewho is sitting in both, and what is

(25:00):
that thing that's making you afraidto like let go of that seat and
actually let someone else occupy it?
And just spending some timereally thinking about like, what's
going on there for me because.
When we experience success in acertain role, we tend to hang onto
that and go, oh, that works for me.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna clinging to it.

(25:21):
But that's where we see that ceilingget hit with the people who sit in the
visionary integrator seat too long.
Hey, quick pause before we keep going.
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But here's the thing, it's not goingto slow down so you can catch up.
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(25:44):
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If that's you, head to John Kitchenscoach and let's make it happen.
Now, back to the episode.
One recommendation.
So I, I, I 100% agree.
I think we started to hear a lotof it coming out of pandemic.
And obviously things were so easythat why would I want to align and

(26:09):
put, you know, our, our fires togetherto put, create one bigger fire.
But we're starting to see it.
And you know, I had, uh, Kyle on, um,the expert mentors conversation on 4th of
July, and he told me that was the move.
And I was like, bro, that is the move.
Like, like.
Just bringing all of these smallerteams into, and now you've had
this one massive bonfire Yeah.

(26:31):
Within your marketplace.
And I know he is not done, so I, to meit's the move is I obviously, what I
was telling you about, you know, theteam in Canada just did the same thing.
Yeah.
I, I think it's so right.
Being able to bring inthose different resources.
There's a Lencioni book that.
He struggled to put out, but it'sthe book that should be read first

(26:53):
before the advantage, before you know.
Then you get into obviously, youknow, working genius, ideal team
player, and all of his other, allof the other works that he has.
And it's called The Motive.
I was hoping you were gonna say that.
I was like, oh, I hope he says the motive.
But it's the perfect example of these twohead of companies that battle each other.
But when they come togetherand they realize like.

(27:14):
No, like, this is where my heart is.
My heart is marketing.
This is where I'm gonna add themost value to this vision, and this
endeavor is sitting in this seat.
And it's such a, like, it's a mustread if you're looking to bring
fires together in reading that book.
And, and it just, it'sso, it's so powerful.
I couldn't agree more.

(27:34):
And it really ties beautifullytoo, to your point, the ideal team
player, those core values of humble,hungry, and smart, which are the
core values of the Table group,which is Patrick Lin Joni's company.
But those are really any company Iwork with anymore, they're looking at,
that's the permission to play stuff.
If you can't show up with whathumble, hungry, and smart need

(27:55):
to look like here with our corevalues, then it's probably a no.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and.
It takes a very high level ofself-awareness and humility for someone
who has been the figurehead of anorganization and their name is on the wall
to say, I'm willing to step back and sitin the marketing seat because let's face

(28:17):
it, the value of whatever seat they sitin, they just took that seat and put it
on steroids because they're sitting in it.
The power and, and, and impact theycan create there is incredible.
They have to have the vision to see it.
And the humility to be willingto take that step back and.
Not perceive it as a step back,but perceive it as like a power

(28:38):
move for the greater good.
So it's just, it's probably a faster,better pathway to get to whatever
it is you're trying to get to.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
I have a client that I'm workingwith right now actually that's
really struggling with that.
They have.
Um, they have an owner, a mergedentity owner sitting in a leadership
team position, actually sitting intwo leadership team positions and not

(29:00):
doing either of them particularly well.
Mm-hmm.
And refuses to relinquish that seatbecause I'm an owner of the business
and what, what are the optics ifthe owner of the business isn't
sitting in that particular seat?
And I'm like, well, what are the optics ifwe're failing as an organization because.
You can't perform in that seatthe way the business really needs.

(29:22):
So it, there's definitely tension andunfortunately, well, or fortunately,
I guess, whichever way you lookat it, I end up in many of those
types of conversations, having tobe the person that makes like the un
unpopular observation and asks the,the provocative question on, you
know, is this really working for you?
So that's something I would encourage.

(29:44):
Any of the, the team leaders that arelistening that are in, you know, those
multiple seats or trying to figureout what seat they should settle into.
Um, is there something there kind ofgoing on between the ears for you where
it is maybe more of a, an ego thing?
Ego's not bad.
We all have it.
Mm-hmm.
So that's a release of judgment.

(30:05):
Is there something going on for me?
Am I, am I holding ontothis for the wrong reasons?
Um, and am I really doingwhat's right for the greater
good of the business long term?
Is that, is that the struggle for.
Not being able to balance theshort term with the long term.
Is that sometimes wherethat comes into play?
Yeah, I think the, the short termis obviously where we're comfortable

(30:28):
often, and so really some, somepeople even struggle to, I work
with one real estate team and Iabsolutely love the woman that runs
the organization and she very honestlytells me, I'm struggling to figure out.
Where this industry and this businessshould be 3, 5, 10 years from now.
So that's one of the exercisesthat I actually like to begin with.

(30:51):
So when we're onboarding a new client, wedo a lot of deep work with the visionary
and we use more, um, I would say executivecoaching strategy than necessarily like
operating system mechanics to go deep oncreating a thrilling, compelling vision.
And it's so incredible.
Even as someone like Ican be pretty visionary.
And I can, I can come up with the bigideas and get excited about that stuff,

(31:14):
but the power of working with someonewho actually specializes in pulling
that vision out of me has been extremelyhelpful so that I can be biopic and know
when to pull, like long-term vision leverversus short-term like GSD Execute mode.
Yeah.
Approach.
Yeah.
Being able to have that balance.

(31:35):
That's um.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know,everybody has maybe their crystal
ball, you know, uh, perspective on, onkind of where, where things are gonna
go and, um, I think just obviouslyspeed is, is one factor, right?
Um, just, just as, as wecontinue to navigate, as things

(31:57):
get faster and faster, but.
One of the things, Kristen, and, andI would love your, your 2 cents, um,
when you look at kind of, you know, youtouched on the accountability chart,
but really looking at continuing to,to streamline, you know, the, the vital
functions of, of these organizations.
And, um, looking at consolidationof, of, of roles, right?

(32:21):
Instead of, you know, as, as a lot ofcompanies are having to get a lot leaner,
obviously incorporating a lot of ai.
VA fractional full-time, right?
So if you had to kind of go, you know,the path of, you know, uh, you know,
Hey, I can afford this then, then this,then this, and this on the way up.
Seeing a consolidation of, of evenmarketing and sales to where it's just

(32:43):
a consolidation of just growth, right?
Head of growth.
I'm responsible to not createsilos between marketing and sales,
like we're working together.
You see obviously like even smallbusiness, like for me, right?
I was responsible for ops.
Finance, right?
So there wasn't two separates.
It was that consolidation and thenthe emergence of, you know, the vital

(33:06):
function of, of experience and, andreally controlling and making sure that
we're being intentional we're the journeyand the experience we're creating,
especially on real estate side of things.
And you get to a certainpoint, you know, the.
The swamp, if you will, the one tothree where, where a lot of teams get
stuck and the reason they get stuckis because the people that got 'em

(33:28):
into that, into that one to threerange, they won't let go of them.
They won't up their talent, right?
They're, they're, most ofthe time they're too loyal.
They stay not as a bad thing,they're just, loyalty is,
is very important to them.
And they just reach the capabilitiesof their people and that's where they,
they bump that three mark, um, and.

(33:50):
Being able to continue, you know,the main thing they have to do is,
is like, bring more people in Yeah.
And need to grow to, to pushthrough that, that threshold.
So kind of, but when you getinto that threshold, the game
changes, especially in real estate.
So if you're in that range,your, your clientele, your
focus is buyers and sellers.

(34:11):
Investors and builders.
But when you get into that markand then you're, you're, you
know, you're 12, 15, 20 agents.
Your business model is no longerbuyer and sellers, your business
model is now real estate agents.
And so making sure that it, and thechallenges is that you gotta support
them, you know, to their clientsnow as the buyers and sellers.
But you as head of company, yourclients are, are the real estate agents.

(34:33):
So it's, it's kind of.
It becomes a lot.
And I think that's where a lotof agents they struggle with.
They don't want to go bigger thanthat because they, they, you know,
the dynamics of serving the buyersand sellers and serving the agents.
It's almost like two different businessmodels in one being able to, you know,
try to try to navigate that terrain.
But what are your thoughtsas things are getting leaner?

(34:55):
Obviously, you know, the fast emergenceof, of AI and where we're gonna start
to see more, more consolidations andthings continuing to get a lot leaner.
Yeah, there's a few, a few big ideas that.
I wanna key into here to provide somereally good practical advice and I would
hope, comfort for the people listening.

(35:15):
Um, first of all, any businessnaturally hits what we call various
ceilings throughout their growthjourney and the opportunity that.
Is presented to them in that momentis you can either decide to stay
just below that ceiling or you canchoose evolution and push through.
So those are really the two paths.
Stay where you are or keep growing.

(35:36):
I am naturally wired as akeep growing kind of person.
Me too.
Which is why I really, I love the work,but I do, I'm like, okay, what's next?
I'm, I'm the what's next girl?
For sure.
So the big idea there is first choose.
Do you wanna push through the ceiling?
If you're saying, no, we're gonna stayput, we're gonna kind of stay at this
safe zone, and we know what it looks like.
It's, you know, known operations,processes and commodity, that's

(35:59):
a choice that you can make.
But I would also encourageyou to have, um, someone
challenge you on your thinking.
Is it something that is serving you in, insome kind of limiting belief where you've.
Feel like you have to stay there orshould stay there for some reason.
And is that true?
And if it wasn't true,what might you do about it?
So that's just a fun question to journalabout or unpack with someone who you

(36:22):
trust, who knows you really well.
Second big idea here is that every issuein your business, I would say 90% of
the issues that we're solving in clientengagements are either people or process.
So anytime you're facing somethingin your business and you're
like, what's going on here?
Why are we stuck?
You've probably got a peopleproblem or a process problem.

(36:44):
Mm-hmm.
And those are different things, butthe tool that you mentioned earlier
that I think is really powerfulhere, regardless of AI and all of the
different options available to you, andthat menu is growing, to your point.
Worry less about who should I putin the seat and start by getting
clear on what is the actual seat.

(37:04):
So you mentioned like, ohman, the complexity of titles.
Can we just talk about that?
I mean, mm-hmm.
Chief Revenue Officer, chiefGrowth Officer, chief marketing
Officer, chief Experience Officer,chief Transformation Officer.
Like all of the different things thatare popping up because people like
to be creative and kitschy and fun.
Yeah, and there has now become the,you can have 10 resumes for chief

(37:29):
revenue officers sitting in frontof you, and the functionality of
what they've actually done to getthat title has looked so different.
So there's no clear path forpositions and titles anymore.
So what can you do as a businessowner to regain control?
Because your responsibility, here'sthe big idea on the accountability
chart, you simply need the right seats.

(37:52):
That are inclusive of what is the functionthat the business needs performed here
and what are the three to seven rolesthat that function performs consistently?
It's that 20% rep representationof 80% of the things that that
person is doing very consistently,and it's regardless of the people.
That's often the most challengingexercise that we go through when

(38:16):
we're building an accountabilitychart in a client environment or even
restructuring an accountability chart.
'cause that's an activeliving breathing tool.
It's not a set it and forget it.
We're constantly goingback and saying, Hey.
The business is pivoting.
There's an evolvingneed in the marketplace.
Mm-hmm.
Or what we're hearing from our agentdemand and how do we account for that?

(38:37):
Is it a full functioning seat inand of itself, or is it a role
associated with an existing function?
So it enables scalability.
Intentionality and how you'regrowing because not everything
is a plus one moment.
And what I mean by that is just becausewe see a new need in the business doesn't
mean we need to go hire another person.
Um, I know it's really easy to say yesto part-time VA support because now we

(39:02):
can get it for a pretty reasonable USdollar rate and really great talent.
But we still want tobe really intentional.
I'm big on financial acumen with ourclient engagements, so that's one of the
first things we unpack and, and we'regoing to look at the human capital spend
to be, it has to be, has to be 1000%.
Um, I trust, you know, if they'rebringing me in, I trust that they

(39:23):
can at least afford me, but Ialso have to make sure that they
can afford, they can't afford me.
You need to do, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or sometimes they can't andthey, they bring me in anyway.
And, and that's my first job is to makesure that we're getting clear there.
Um, but, uh, you know.
If we think about the structure ofthe accountability chart, that is an
extremely useful exercise to go through.

(39:44):
And then the second thing that I wouldsay, and this is big, this has been game
changing for me, um, in how I advise manyof my clients and how they're building for
the future of what their business needs.
Talent wise.
If you know what you want yourbusiness to look like in three years.
You have to be hiring peoplewho have been there before.

(40:05):
Mm-hmm.
So if I know I'm trying to five X mycompany in the next three years, I better
bring in someone who knows what the fivex version of my company could look like.
And they've been with a company thatknows what are the pitfalls, what
are the obstacles, what should we beavoiding, what should we be doing?
Um, that is a massive like.

(40:28):
Talent lever to pull.
I would say that's really important.
So oftentimes we are back filling anexisting position rather than trying to.
Necessarily bring in the person whocan move us closer to the, the vision
of what we're trying to become.
Because let's also be honest, um, ifI'm trying to grow my company to be

(40:49):
a $10 million, you know, 50 personorganization, if I don't have that
experience, I better bring peoplein who do have that experience.
Yeah.
So I think that's really, uh, animportant like, intentional thing.
And that goes into a little bit oflike John Maxwell Law of the Lid, the.
Company will only go as faras the leadership level of the
most capable person on the team.

(41:10):
And it's, listen, visionaryleaders, it's okay if it's not you.
Right.
And, and letting go ofthat, that is 100% okay.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's huge.
Like, know thyself moment for sure.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I mean, you know, are you stillequipped to be, to be head of company or
are you better off in a, in another role?
But most of the time you are still,you know, head of company and you know,

(41:32):
maybe you just need to up the talent.
You know, with you on the ops side,maybe up the talent with you on, you
know, the marketing side, on the salesside, and, you know, as they continue
to grow, where, where do you see, um,making sure the responsibilities stay
with, with the head of company and whatcan then transfer to a fractional hire?

(41:56):
Um, bringing somebody in likeyou, you know, not letting go.
What, what is like the one thing that.
No matter what head of company,you can't let go of you.
You have to maintain.
The short answer is it is the visionof the organization that really,
I mean, it's called the visionaryseat for a very simple reason.

(42:17):
So everything else.
Really boils down to trust.
I mean, I've had, I've had a, youknow, some of our client engagements
where they're like, Hey, I'm goingon 30 day emergency access only.
Here's all the banking account logins.
Like that's the worst casescenario of what you might need.
You're authorized to go in there,move these things to these accounts,

(42:38):
like there's that level of trust.
It takes a long time to get to,which is one of the things that we
see held onto for a pretty, prettylong time is that finance seat.
Mm-hmm.
But controlling and continuing tocast the vision and really fortifying
that in the organization, the vision,which in is inclusive of, it's the
who we are, where we're going and howI'm I, how I want us to get there.

(43:02):
That does need to continueto live with the visionary.
Now, having a highly capable team toexecute that is obviously important
because that's where trust breaks down.
So if you're a visionary and you'retelling your operator or your second
in command, your integrator, this iswhere we've gotta get to, and they're
not demonstrating the capability toget the rest of the team mobilized

(43:24):
in that direction, you probably havenot the right person in that seat.
And then the questionbecomes, are you of course.
Casting that vision effectivelyand being very generous in what
your expectations look like.
But I would say my most successfulclients, um, that they bring that
fractional person in also to modelfor the rest of the leadership team.

(43:46):
This is what it looks like to lead,manage, and create accountability.
This is what execution looks like.
This is how we create aclimate of accountability.
Accountability isn't somethingthat you do to someone.
It's not like a, a verb that you,you know, beat someone over the head
with the accountability bat, whichI've worked for those companies too.
That's a thing that happens.
Um, but it's truly modeling leadershippractices and management practices that

(44:10):
bring that visionary's vision to life.
I'm not there.
I'm there as a strategic advisor anda thought partner for the visionary,
so I can play in that space with them,ask questions, challenge thinking,
come up with maybe expansions or promptthem into expansion of their vision.
But ultimately I'm there.

(44:30):
We decide together, here's whatwe're gonna say yes to, and what
we're gonna then cascade down to theleadership team for whatever that
next level of execution looks like.
And we do want their participation.
So to your point, the 90 day worldrunning strategic planning sessions
that map out what are we runningtoward for the next 90 days, and just
taking our world one chunk at a timein that way is extremely powerful.

(44:55):
So a fractional integrator or COO.
Should be providing strategicadvisor thought partnership.
And everything in between.
And the organizational development and,and leadership all the way down to people,
process, performance management, um,project management, all of those things.
So the work that we do can bepretty wide and we, you know,

(45:17):
we help them figure that out.
That's the other thing.
They don't have to figure outwhat it might look like to have a
fractional person in their business.
We do a pretty deep dive discoveryand calibration with them to make
sure that not only do we havethe right growth plan in place.
Can be executed together, butthen also, you know, um, what does
that look like, uh, long term?

(45:40):
I love it.
I love it.
Yeah.
I bounced around on you real quickhere and, and, um, you know, we
talked about the law of the lidand we talked, you know, leadership
capabilities and the sizes is onlydirect proportion to, to just that.
Do you see it?
The leadership development, is it justbecause it doesn't get prioritized?
Is that where it tends to, to slowdown, is because that's not part of,

(46:04):
you know, the ongoing development andtraining and, and, and a much bigger
focus on leadership development.
You know, anything in the vein of trainingtends to be the first thing to get punted
from the calendar in my experience.
So even when I am being paid sometimes,you know, premium rates to deliver

(46:26):
a certain type of training to aleadership team or a group, it's
amazing how easy it is for people to belike, oh, it's the I'm too busy card.
I don't have time for that today becausethey have little fires everywhere.
Burning all around themthat have to be put out.
And even if they were to show up, they'dbe so wildly distracted because they know
what's waiting for them on the other side.

(46:46):
So I think it does, um, it does get pushedfrom the schedule pretty consistently.
People end up, it sounds great, butthen when it push comes to shove.
They declined at the lastminute from their calendars.
So I've seen that.
I think there's also an expectationwhen you become a certain caliber
of leader in an organization.
I think there's an expectationfrom the people that hired you that

(47:09):
you do a bit of self-developmentwhen it comes to your leadership.
And so they don't necessarily know thestory of how leadership development.
Was handled for you, for your,in your career leading up to this
point, were you a self-starter?
You know, did you kind of managethat on your own through just learner
mindset and, you know, hustle and grind?

(47:32):
Or did you have people deeplyinvesting in you to create that?
I think that's an importantquestion when you're bringing
a leader into the organization.
Mm-hmm.
To ensure you're not makingany assumptions about.
How they personally prioritize andhave been developed as a leader.
Um, and I, I would love to seeorganizations commit to it more
deeply, but we've, we've all beenguilty of it because there are so

(47:54):
many other things that we're oftentrying to deal with, especially if
we're hitting our heads on scalabilityissues and, and growth ceilings.
Yeah, that's such a great point.
And never, never assume intelligencefor another human being.
And, and so I think it's,it's really getting clear.
Don't assume, ask the questionsand it's, you know, I think

(48:15):
you're, you're helping them.
To if the more I, I know the morethat we can help and, and get on the
right path and, and where we needto, you know, make the jump and, you
know, just like anything, I mean,leadership's a skill and so it's,
it's development and it's the biggestjump that you get to a certain point.
Being able to, to have, and you know.

(48:37):
Even, even, you know, hard driving.
We, we all can continue to learnand, and you know, like you said,
you know, obviously first ruleof leadership is lead by example.
So definitely the personal developmentside of things on your own, but also
bringing that back into the environmentto stretch and, and grow the team and,
and your key, your key people around you.
I like that, John.

(48:57):
And we're also seeing an interestingshift where we're seeing in some larger
organizations even you have someone who isan incredible specialist of their craft.
And we naturally think, I mean, we'veall seen the dynamic of we take the best
sales guy in the room and we make himthe sales manager, and then he makes a
terrible sales manager because all thethings that made him great at being.

(49:17):
A sales person don'tnecessarily lend well to him.
Being a good manager of peopleand transferring that skill to
others, it's a different skillset.
So we've seen that dynamic play out.
But the other dynamic that we see is, um,you know, oh, this person is such a, a
specialist and, and master of their craft.
Surely they want that leadership.

(49:39):
Layer.
Mm-hmm.
Added on.
And I will say I, I'm prettyintentional when we're building out that
accountability chart, any seat that.
Has people reporting into it has thatfirst accountability in the whole little
bucket there of roles is leadershipplus management equals accountability.
Mm-hmm.
And the reason it's the number one, it'snot the seventh or the third on that list,

(50:04):
it's number one, because you're probablygonna spend about 50% of your week there.
You're gonna burn a lot of energyand you're going to need to be really
equipped and intentional about performingthat role associated with your seat.
So it's also Okay.
To have people in leadership, um, orin like lead positions that are the
specialists and not necessarily givingthem the team of people to manage.

(50:27):
So that's the other thingthat I think gets missed.
We, we have to have a team of people.
It could be that we use a dotted lineapproach or they are, um, like a subject
matter expert in the organization.
So there's different waysto elevate people without
necessarily adding leadershipand management to their function.
Yeah, and I mean, we see that even with.
You know, even on the working genius.
I mean, and if that, if that eand g is a frustration, you might

(50:51):
wanna be really, really careful.
Um, you know, that just, it doesn't, youknow, it doesn't mean they can't do it,
it's just it's not gonna be sustainable.
Um, yeah.
In, in their energy.
Energy draining their development.
Kristen, you are absolutely amazing.
We could keep rolling for, for hourson this and, um, you're just such a,
a wealth of, of, of information andinsight and just love how you articulate

(51:13):
things and being able to help connectthe dots for, for anyone, you know, kind
of, I'm kind of stuck and, you know,it's like I'm at the crossing point.
I'm, I'm kind of over the VA world.
I need, I need a higher level of talent.
Um.
I'm not ready to make, pullthe trigger on a full time.
Like what are, what are someof the, the mental blocks, the

(51:34):
process they need to go through?
Like, are they ready to bringsomebody in on a fractional basis?
Well, I would encourage them, you know,to seek out, I mean, obviously I know how
we handle, you know, those conversations,but seek out people in the fractional
space and get informed, because Iwill say, because it's one of those
industries that anyone can hang a shingleand say, I'm now a fractional person.

(51:58):
There is a pretty.
Wide, um, range of differentfractional professionals putting
themselves out there in spaces,like in social media and LinkedIn.
So I would be really conscientious aboutwhat those early conversations look like.
So what we do is we start with a discoverycall, and that is in 30 minutes, we
will help you figure out if fractionalis right for you and if it's not.

(52:21):
We will point you in the rightdirection to resources, other vendors,
other solutions, and we'll make arecommendation on where you should go.
So we're not ever there to like,just sell the fractional services.
We're not, it's not the rightthing for everyone, right?
Sometimes it's a full-time hire andwe'll make that recommendation too, um,
if we do end up being the right thing.

(52:42):
We support with them figuring out whatit would look like for their business.
And I would say the person who'sright for that is just someone who
feels kind of stuck and frustrated.
You know, you're sitting in multipleseats, you know, you're probably doing
everything like maybe 50 to 80% onevery, any given day, but you're not
able to give a hundred percent andyou're feeling the stress of that
working long hours distracted from yourfamily and the people that you love.

(53:05):
Um, lots of differentsymptomatic things that we see.
That person's life that are usually thepain point triggers that they just kind
of raise their hand and say, I don't knowwhat to do, and we're a great place to go.
And, and we'll help you figure it out.
Um, and then if we are the right thing,then we move into like a calibration where
we're really figuring out based on yourindustry, your business, your personality,

(53:28):
your working, even like things likeworking genius and behavioral assessment,
who do we have on the team that's theright person to embed into your team?
Because it's reallyimportant that we develop.
Uh, trust and authority andcredibility very quickly.
With the existing teams thatwe show up as an ally, not a
disruption into the business.
And so we're super intentionalabout that, like, you know,

(53:51):
matchmaking process, if you will,and bringing those folks together.
Um, and then what I often find too, which.
Gives many of our, ourclients some peace of mind.
We kind of take on the responsibilityof knowing when that moment is to
raise our hands and say, I thinkyou're ready for a full-time person.
Or we should start to explore thatand, and we start to like get ahead

(54:11):
of it because it often can take six to12 months to find the right person to
backfill our fractional functionalityand put the right person in place.
We support with helping them find thatperson and even onboarding them so
that that transition is super smooth,but we're often saying it first.
Um, because it is our job to identify thatmoment in partnership with the visionary.

(54:32):
Yeah.
That's so good.
You're amazing.
Um, Kristen, how can they reach,how can they get connected with you?
I would check us out@transformcxo.com.
We are fractional EOSintegrators and fractional COOs.
We're also certified exitplanning advisors and meta
performance executive coaches.
So we bring a lot of long-termfocus to those engagements as well.

(54:53):
So not only are we gonna treatyour business today, but we're
gonna help you think about what itmeans for you and unlocking the.
Wealth and harvesting that fromyour business eventually on a
more long-term, uh, timeline.
So we have a lot of fun with thatwork, but I would check out our
website, take a look at our offerings,and they can book a call there.
And they can also follow me onInstagram at Kristen Renan cxo,

(55:14):
which of course I've seen you likeon the little ticker on the bottom.
Such a great setup here.
I'm sure they've seen it on time.
We didn't even get into, uh, the exitconversation, so we'll have to do
this again 'cause uh, oh, I'd love it.
That's, uh, definitely a big one.
Always starting with the end in mind.
Kristen.
Appreciate you guys.
Make sure you get plugged in.
Give uh, give Kristen some loveand we'll see you guys next time.

(55:35):
Thanks.
See you.
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