March 31, 2024 • 56 mins
Ever wondered what it's like to cycle through the heart of France's wine country, surrounded by stunning vineyards and charming villages? Want to know how to plan the perfect self-guided bike tour in one of the most picturesque regions of France? Ready to discover the secret spots and local delights that only a bike can help you find?
Dive into our latest episode, "Biking Burgundy: Vineyards, Villages & Vistas," where Annie Sargent sits down with Howard Kantoff to explore his cycling adventure through Burgundy. Starting in the vibrant city of Dijon, Howard takes us on a journey across rolling hills, past ancient vineyards, and into the heart of Burgundy's historic villages.
He shares essential tips for planning your bike tour, from choosing the best routes to uncovering the top places to indulge in the region's famed wines and gastronomy. This episode is more than just a travel guide; it's an invitation to experience the joy of discovering Burgundy at your own pace, on two wheels.
Whether you're a seasoned cyclist or just someone who loves a good adventure story, "Biking Burgundy" offers a unique blend of travel insights, personal anecdotes, and practical advice. So, are you ready to pedal your way through the beauty and culture of Burgundy? Click play and let the adventure begin!
Table of Contents for this Episode
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Annie Sargent (00:16):
This is Join Us in France, episode 487,
quatre cent quatre vingt sept.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent, and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a tripreport with Howard Kantoff.
Imagine yourself pedaling along serenevineyard paths, through historic
(00:40):
villages, and alongside tranquil canals.
Yes, today's adventure is all abouta self-guided bike tour in one of
France's most celebrated wine regions.
You could drive if you wantedto, but Howard did it on a bike.
And we also discussed the logisticsof doing it on two wheels.
This podcast is supported by donors andlisteners who buy my tours and services,
(01:04):
including my Itinerary Consult Service,my GPS self-guided tours of Paris on the
VoiceMap app, or take a day trip with mearound the Southwest in my electric car.
You can browse all of that at myboutique JoinUsInFrance.com/boutique.
Patreon supporters get the episodeas soon as it's ready and ad free,
(01:24):
and listeners who buy my VoiceMaptours from the boutique get a
fantastic discount, by the way.
For the magazine part of the podcast,after the interview today, I'll
tell you about my food tour inParis because it was fun to write
and I want you to know about it.
(01:50):
Bonjour Howie Kantoff andwelcome to Join Us in France.
Howard Kantoff (01:54):
Merci, Annie.
Bonjour.
Annie Sargent (01:56):
How are you?
Howard Kantoff (01:57):
Very well.
Excited to speak with you.
Annie Sargent (02:00):
Oh, excited to talk to you as well.
You had some adventures in Franceand you did some stuff that I always
dream about doing, but I haven'tdone any of it yet, which is to
do an itinerant trip on a bike.
So you went from point to point,it was self-guided, right?
Howard Kantoff (02:17):
That is correct.
Annie Sargent (02:18):
Okay, so tell me how you organized this.
Well, first of all, did you do thisby yourself, were you with a group?
Howard Kantoff (02:23):
I was strictly by myself, six days of biking by myself.
After that, my wife came to meetme in Dijon and we spent three days
together, but the biking was solo.
Annie Sargent (02:35):
Solo.
And so this was entirely self-guided?
Howard Kantoff (02:39):
It was.
Annie Sargent (02:40):
Yeah.
And how did you prepare for this trip?
And what, well, first of all, whattime of the year did you do this trip?
Howard Kantoff (02:46):
This was late September, early fall.
Annie Sargent (02:50):
So just a few weeks ago, it was September, 2023.
Howard Kantoff (02:53):
That's right.
It's fresh in my mind.
Annie Sargent (02:55):
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
All right.
How did you organize this?
How did you research it?
How did it go?
All of that.
I want to know everything.
Howard Kantoff (03:04):
The planning and the research, that was half of the
fun or maybe a quarter of the fun.
I knew that as we're coming outof the pandemic, I wanted to take
an amazing trip out of the US.
I've done it before, butnot since the pandemic.
It was time to take a fantastic tripagain, and I just began searching
(03:26):
Google for best biking in Europe.
I was actually almost prepared to doa trip in Austria and Hungary on the
Danube River, I think it was the airfarethat set me back on that, and I made a
decision I would go in France, becausewhat's not to like about France?
(03:48):
And then I took the search fromthere, best biking in France.
I got some lists.
Various areas were mentioned, Burgundywas one of them, and I settled on that
because it just seemed to be right.
You know, there were, you can goin the Pyrenees, but I'm not a
super expert Tour de France typeof cyclist so that, you know.
Annie Sargent (04:11):
Most of us are not.
Howard Kantoff (04:13):
And so Burgundy seemed to have just about everything, some
hills, but not too challenging, beautifulscenery, the wine country, and I made a
decision that this is where I would go.
And from there, I had to figureout where am I going to begin?
Where am I going to stop?
Google was my friend andGoogle Maps was my friend.
(04:35):
And I figured Dijon would be a good placeto start, a decent sized city, that key
point, they had bike rental available.
I rented a bicycle, for better orfor worse, and there was an outfit
based in Dijon and Beaune calledBourgogne Evasion, they were terrific.
(04:58):
They had, you know, wanted to makesure I could get a decent bicycle, and
then from Dijon, I just, I looked atthe map, I did some reading, I went to
various websites, there was one, I thinkit was called Velo Tourisme de France,
which was a go to, I had it bookmarked.
And it kind of went in depth, what am Igoing to find, you know, right down to the
(05:23):
elevation level, how bad are the hills?
And that helped me map out the route.
The next thing I knew, you know,I had to make sure there was
places to stay, places to eat.
I stayed all in hotels and orBed and Breakfasts, you know,
modest, reasonably priced places.
(05:44):
And then I had to figure out thedistances for the rides each day, so
they weren't too short or too long.
And then I hammered out a routethat began in Dijon, and it kind
of looped South and then towardthe East, and it ended in Besançon.
Annie Sargent (06:02):
Besançon.
Yes.
Howard Kantoff (06:04):
Besançon.
After which I took a trainback to Dijon to meet my wife.
Annie Sargent (06:08):
Ah, so you brought your bike back to Dijon.
Howard Kantoff (06:11):
Yeah, that's where I rented it, and that's where I returned it.
Annie Sargent (06:15):
Very good.
How was it taking a bike on the train?
I want to hear about this.
Howard Kantoff (06:20):
That was a key learning experience.
In a nutshell, veryeasy, very user friendly.
The first time I had to do this, I'dgone four days without a drop of rain.
On the fifth day, I was stuck in thevillage of Sures, in a rainstorm and
(06:41):
I'm looking at my phone and I'm standingunder an awning behind somebody's
house in a small village as the rain'scoming down and the thunder is banging
and trying to figure out how am Igoing to get to St-Jean-de-Losne,
where my reservation is tonight.
It was about 15 more miles and Iwound up taking the train from Sures.
(07:03):
So easy.
I read about it, but you get down tothat moment when you're boarding the
train and you're a little nervous.
I brought the bike on the train.
There was another gentlemanwho did the same thing, who
had obviously done this before.
You bring it on, there's a little area forthe bicycles, and this man saw me kind of
fumbling around and he told me what to do.
(07:26):
There's these elastic straps at theside of the train that you just pull
over your seat just to secure the bike.
It was very, very easy.
You just roll it right aboard.
Now the cars are marked,whether they have bicycle space.
I did this two or three times and eachtime it was no trouble finding a space.
(07:48):
I've read that the long distanceroutes, the TGV, you may have to
book in advance or double checkthat they offer bicycle space.
Annie Sargent (07:58):
Yeah.
I think you have to pay a littlebit to take a bike on the TGV.
Did you have to pay at any point for yourbike or was it just part of your ticket?
Howard Kantoff (08:06):
No, it was just part of the ticket.
And I had downloaded the SNCF?
SCNF?
Annie Sargent (08:14):
SNCF, yes.
Howard Kantoff (08:15):
SNCF app on the phone, and it made things so easy.
I could just purchase myticket right then and there.
Nobody ever checked that I had aticket, but I'm sure that if I didn't
buy one, then they would check it.
And so...
Annie Sargent (08:30):
Yes.
Well, yeah, you should get aticket because it's mightily
unpleasant if you don't.
I mean, they don't check everytrain, but there are spot
checks, so that's important.
Howard Kantoff (08:38):
Yeah, I'm sure of it.
And that, like I said, it was anempowering experience to learn
how easy this was, and then I justhopped off at St-Jean-de-Losne.
The rain was still coming down, butI just had to ride to the hotel.
Annie Sargent (08:52):
You were close.
That's good.
That's good.
Yeah.
That's always a possibility.
And there are some train systems inFrance that are more, they're better
prepared for cyclists than others, okay?
So, probably this is one of the goodones, which is very good to know,
because typically if the trains youtried are well set up for bikes, it
(09:13):
means that most of the regional trainsin that region can handle bikes.
They do this all the time.
Howard Kantoff (09:19):
It seemed that way.
Yes.
Annie Sargent (09:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And also finding another cyclist whocould show you around that, that helped,
that saved you some grief, I'm sure.
Howard Kantoff (09:28):
Absolutely.
Annie Sargent (09:29):
And then the other trains, it was the same type of setup, right?
Howard Kantoff (09:32):
Yeah.
And then, by then I was an expert.
Annie Sargent (09:36):
You could help other people.
Howard Kantoff (09:38):
Right.
Annie Sargent (09:38):
That's fantastic.
Okay.
Well, did you run into any catastrophes?
Like, did you have a bike breakdown?
I don't know.
Howard Kantoff (09:46):
I'm hesitant to talk too much about it, the company I rented
from was terrific and very helpful.
On the first day, the bike thatI thought I was getting was not
the bike that they gave to me.
And so I had to sort of work thatout with them to get a proper
bike, for six days of riding.
They'd given me more of acomfort style with a mushy seat.
(10:09):
For long days on the bicycle, I'velearned that a harder, firmer seat
and style of bike is going to be best.
So I waited an extra hour, hourand a half, while they prepared
the bike that I ordered fromthem, and then I was on my way.
It was a little bit stressful becauseI guess, time is money and, you
(10:30):
know, you want to get to where you'regoing, and not be arriving after
dark or so late that you miss dinner.
The rainstorm, I would notcall that a catastrophe.
In the end, I think itmakes for a good story.
I came prepared.
I had my rain gear and rainjacket, but it was a thunderstorm.
(10:51):
And so, I didn't want to beout in the middle of a field,
by a river, in a thunderstorm.
Annie Sargent (10:56):
No, you do not.
Howard Kantoff (10:58):
If there's a will, there's a way, and you know, worked out just fine.
So no, no catastrophes, just afew minor hiccups along the way.
Annie Sargent (11:08):
Yeah.
And it's true that perhaps a lot ofserious cyclists, the ones that I've
talked to before, they bring their ownbikes typically, but that's another
whole, you know, level of difficulty.
Did you consider that?
Howard Kantoff (11:22):
I absolutely did consider it, but I'm still just a little
bit hesitant to go through all that.
The packing, the bikebox, the disassembling.
I consider myself a medium seriouscyclist, but not hardcore serious.
And so, maybe next time, it's time to trythat out, but then there's the logistics
(11:45):
of, okay, I've arrived, I'm at Charlesde Gaulle with a giant box, and what am
I going to do with this while I'm riding?
I mean, there's ways tofigure it out, I'm sure.
Annie Sargent (11:56):
Yeah, you'll hear an episode coming out soon
after we record this, where theydid this and they explain how.
So, there are ways, it's just,it adds a level of difficulty.
And I'm pretty sure also that if you finda good bike shop, they'll work with you.
I mean, they might not be preparedright as you arrive, as you
(12:17):
experienced, but eventually theytook care of you and gave you a bike
that didn't cause you any trouble.
Howard Kantoff (12:23):
It did not, it did not break down.
No flat tires.
I found the rental to be thepath of least resistance.
Annie Sargent (12:31):
Yeah, that sounds good to me.
All right, let's talk about your10 favorite things on this trip.
And if people want to see the detailsof, you know, your route, where you
went, all of that, it's in the document.
It's going to be in your guest notes, butwe're going to skip around a little bit.
I just want to go from, youknow, your favorite thing.
Because that's always adelight to hear about.
Howard Kantoff (12:52):
I would say overall, and this was day in, day out, just
the scenery and the landscape ofthis part of France was spectacular.
I had to pinch myself tomake sure I wasn't dreaming.
It was just so amazing and so beautiful.
And as I moved around, it would kindof shift and change a little bit.
(13:14):
On the second day, in between Chateauneufand riding down to Beaune, before I
hit the Voie des Vignes, it was justso completely amazing, like, you know,
giant hills with rock faces and horsesand cows grazing, like being right in
(13:34):
the middle of your very own painting.
I think that was probably thehighlight of the whole thing.
Annie Sargent (13:41):
We should briefly mention where you started and where you ended,
which you did, but tell us the kind of thestops, you know, I went from here to here.
I slept here and then I went to...
Howard Kantoff (13:52):
Okay, so the first day of riding I began in Dijon, and I went, I
started heading a little bit west throughthe Ouche Valley, and most of that was
along a canal side, and then I went awayfrom the canal, up into the hills, to
get to Chateauneuf-en-Auxois, I believe.
Annie Sargent (14:13):
Yeah.
Chateauneuf-en-Auxois.
Yep.
Howard Kantoff (14:15):
The canal paths were very flat, but then I had to go up
into the hills, which was a little morechallenging, but not insurmountable.
I spent the night in Chateauneuf.
Day two, it was from there to a middaystop in Beaune, and then you know, right
outside of Beaune, you pick up the Voiedes Vignes, which I took down to Chagny.
Annie Sargent (14:38):
Okay.
So, Voie des Vignes, tours to Chagny.
Okay.
Very good.
Howard Kantoff (14:42):
Spent the night in Chany, then the next day it was through
Chalon-sur-Saone and then onward,and that's where I picked up the
Voie Verte, just outside, or actuallyright in the middle of Chalon, picked
up the Voie Verte, and start headingsouthward, I spent the night in Cormatin.
(15:03):
Ah, very good!
From there, I completed the Voie Verte,went down to Mâcon through Cluny, and
then to Mâcon, and then I started headingback up north on the Voie Bleue, and
then I stopped for the night in Tournus.
And then, there were two more days fromTournus, it was back through Chalon,
(15:28):
and then I picked up the EuroVelo 6 andspent the night in St-Jean-de-Losne.
I learned it is not St-Jean-de-Losne,it's St-Jean-de-Losne.
Annie Sargent (15:42):
Yes, yes, it's Losne.
There's an S in the middlethat you don't say, yes.
Howard Kantoff (15:46):
Yeah, and that was the day where I kind of finished
off my day taking the train.
And then the next day itwas onward to Besançon.
Besançon to meet your wife.
Actually, I spent the night inBesançon, and then the next morning
took the train back to Dijon.
Annie Sargent (16:02):
Very good.
Yeah, so that sounds likea very nice adventure.
And mostly you didn'tride on roads, did you?
Howard Kantoff (16:10):
It was predominantly paved bike trails, and that was
another highlight I wanted to mention.
You know, I've read it's throughoutthe country, but I know that in this
part of the country the bicycle trailinfrastructure was just fantastic.
Here and there I had to go off the trailand take some roads, but they were always
(16:33):
deserted country roads, very few vehicles.
I always felt safe.
That was a big part of planning the trip.
I was not so interested on gettingon highways with trucks and cars.
The trail system in this area, thecanal paths and the Voie des Vignes,
Voie Vertes, they all kind of linkup with one another and it made
(16:57):
for a good sort of circular loop.
Annie Sargent (17:00):
Yeah.
So did you have any contacts with localsin the area ? Did you kind of reach out
to a biking club or anything like that?
Howard Kantoff (17:07):
Not so much.
I think as far as it got is Iwould say Bonjour as people were,
I was passing folks on the pathway.
But it was, you know, a couple smallconversations here and there, but I
was mostly on my own during the ridingportion of the trip, which was just fine.
Annie Sargent (17:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So did you have panniers?
What, how did you keep your stuff?
Howard Kantoff (17:33):
Yes, I rented two panniers from the company.
That, I've learned is really theway to go for an overnight trip.
Even still, I had topack pretty minimally.
I had a couple sets of bikingshorts and biking jerseys.
And then just maybe like one and a halfoutfits for the evenings to go to dinner.
(17:56):
My wife would be horrified, but I figuredout I'll be wearing this shirt, you
know, for a couple hours each night,I've only got so much space, I want
to look presentable, but I could notpack full outfits for every single day.
Annie Sargent (18:10):
No way.
And you probably had to do somesink laundry as you went along.
Howard Kantoff (18:15):
Actually no, I've done it before.
It might not have hurt with some ofthe, because I would reuse the bike
shorts and the biking jersey maybe acouple times, but it worked out okay.
Annie Sargent (18:28):
Yeah.
Well, you know, you have thescent of the trail, I guess.
That's how it works.
Howard Kantoff (18:33):
Right.
But there was always a hotshower at the end of the day.
Annie Sargent (18:37):
Yes.
Yeah.
And you are correct.
There are bike paths likethis all over France.
If you set your mind, if you set yourheart on a part of France, you can
research what's around there and youcan also reach out to a local club.
You can find, you know, bike cluband then whatever town, email them
and see if they send you some tips.
Howard Kantoff (18:59):
Right, right.
The company that rented the bicycle,Bourgogne Evasion, they also offer
guided tours of all shapes andsizes from say, an afternoon in the
wine country to multi day trips.
They have maps andsuggestions if you need them.
Annie Sargent (19:18):
Yeah.
And you never, I mean, obviously,you didn't have camping
gear or anything like that.
That was okay, right?
You were pretty secure.
You had booked your placesto stay in advance, perhaps?
Howard Kantoff (19:30):
I did, everywhere I stayed, I had booked in advance.
Annie Sargent (19:34):
So you had to make a pretty good guess how far you could go.
Howard Kantoff (19:37):
Right, right.
Annie Sargent (19:38):
Did that sometimes feel like too much or not enough?
Howard Kantoff (19:41):
I think in the end, so here in the Midwest United States you
can go 50 miles on a flat surface in fouror five hours, but the same 50 miles in
France, with some hills and you want tostop and take pictures and see things,
that might be a good 7, 8, 9 hours.
(20:04):
And so I think in the end, I would goanywhere from 30 to 45 miles per day.
And it was manageable, and thosewere not extreme distances for me.
Annie Sargent (20:16):
That's not what you, I mean, you're not
looking for extreme sports.
You're looking for a pleasant vacation.
Howard Kantoff (20:22):
Exactly a pleasure trip, but in the end, it always took,
it took more time than I expected.
Like, oh, I think I'll be able tomake this in six hours and it would
take eight hours because, you know,I stopped all the time to take
pictures, I took some videos as I went.
Annie Sargent (20:41):
And it would be a shame not to.
Yeah, you have to plan some of that.
You're going to go through somestunning landscapes and also some,
like you mentioned Cluny earlier, Ihope you stopped and looked around.
Howard Kantoff (20:55):
I did, and that was really, you know, that was one of the only
times or days where I actually stoppedand took in a bona fide destination site.
In Cluny, I went to the abbey,the monastery, which was well
worth it, you know, I spent aboutan hour and a half, but I had to
work that time into my schedule.
(21:17):
Other villages, I would stop for ahalf hour, maybe an hour, to enjoy
a glass of wine or have lunch or,you know, stop in the cathedral.
But there was not a whole lot of timefor deep exploration of historical
sites, et cetera, but just a little bit.
Annie Sargent (21:37):
Yeah.
Well, you probably could have seenmore of them possibly, but I guess
if you did that, you'd have to planon more like 20, 30 miles a day.
Howard Kantoff (21:48):
Exactly.
Annie Sargent (21:50):
Right.
Which can be done as well, butit's a choice you have to make.
Do I do more tourism ordo I do longer distances?
Howard Kantoff (21:57):
Right.
You know, overall, it all worked out, butI think I erred on the side of too much
riding, you know, like you said, maybe 20to 30 miles a day would be just fine and
allow a little more time to slow down,you know, spend a morning in a village,
sit in a cafe or whatever you want to do.
Annie Sargent (22:19):
Yeah, so a lot of these Voies Vertes, at least the ones in the
southwest where I live, they will haveplaces that you can go off to, you know,
there's a waterfall in this direction,or there's a cave you can visit, or
there's, you know, things like that,that as you read about the Voies Vertes,
some of them take you to some reallyfun outdoor things that you can do.
Howard Kantoff (22:42):
Right.
And, I'd seen a few of these in themap as I was planning the trip, but I
really didn't make it to any so much.
I pretty much stuck to the path.
Annie Sargent (22:52):
So La Vallée de l'Ouche, where you started,
has a steam train, for example.
So that's the sort of thing, like,typically French families, when they do
this, especially when they have kids,they will do shorter distances, and they
will just stop at the steam train, stopat the cave, so they ride for perhaps
(23:12):
three hours total during the day.
And then they just go fromfun activity to fun activity.
And there's plenty of VoieVertes where you can do that.
It's just a matter of finding them, youknow, that's always the trick is doing
the research, but it's part of the fun.
Howard Kantoff (23:26):
Absolutely.
There was one site that I discovered onthe map in between, it was in between
Chateauneuf and Beaune, and I justsaw it in the Google Map, the Abbaye
Saint-Marguerite, which was, you know,this thing I saw on the path, and I kind
(23:47):
of looked it up, and it was an abandonedmonastery in the middle of the hills.
And it just looked like, you know, therewere no roofs, no ceilings, the grass
was just growing up through the walls.
And I thought, I would like to go bythat, I sort of adjusted my route, so
I would take the, you know, get offof the pathway, and take this tiny
(24:10):
little road through the hills so thatI would pass the Saint-Marguerite.
I did this and it was beautiful, thepath got a little bit rough along
the way, and then I came over a hilland I saw it in the distance up on
the hilltop and I was very excited.
However, when I actually gotto the site, I discovered to
(24:32):
my dismay that it was closed.
It was under private ownership and theywere renovating the site for tourism.
So I only got as close as the barbed wirefence that was surrounding the area, but
I was able to see it off in the distance.
But that would be one example where I kindof adjusted my route to go see something
(24:56):
that I thought would be interesting.
I'm glad I did too.
Annie Sargent (24:59):
Yeah, and very often these places are closed off to the
public because they might be dangerous.
They don't want an old wall falling onpeople or something like that, so...
Howard Kantoff (25:07):
Surely, no.
Annie Sargent (25:08):
Yeah.
Okay.
We got distracted fromyour 10 favorite things.
Let's get back to number one, shall we?
Howard Kantoff (25:15):
Of course.
Annie Sargent (25:16):
So that was cycling the Ouche Valley.
It starts just outside of Dijon and thenmaking your way to Châteauneuf-en-Auxois.
And that was mostly scenery, right?
Howard Kantoff (25:27):
Yeah, and primarily a canal path, right, and so alongside
the canal, it was delightful, you'dgo, there'd be the locks, and every
lock would have a little house,where the lock keeper, I don't know
if they really live there, but I sawseveral people showing up to do some
maintenance or to let boats through.
(25:48):
You would see the boats going through thecanal, some of them, I've read, you know,
you can do a boat and bicycle tour, so youwould see the people cruising along on the
boat, they'd have their bicycles up there,it looked like a delightful way to travel,
and I would just kind of roll on by them.
Annie Sargent (26:06):
Yes, this is very popular in that part of the country.
You have a bike on the boat, the boatstops and you go off to explore somewhere
and then you come back and have a nicemeal that somebody prepared for you.
It's pretty good.
It's pretty good.
All right.
Number two was the stunning scenery,like we just mentioned, and then you
did the Véloroute Voie des Vignes.
(26:28):
I want to hear about this.
Howard Kantoff (26:30):
Yes, that was an absolute highlight of the entire trip.
This was a dedicated bicycle paththat shot straight through the
vineyards, beginning outside ofBeaune, and it goes about 15 miles
down to Chaudenay and then Chagny.
This was something I discovered inmy research, it was almost kind of
(26:52):
a centerpiece of the entire tour.
Like, this is a destination,something I want to do.
Annie Sargent (26:59):
You wanted to do this, yeah, yeah.
Howard Kantoff (27:00):
It was absolutely stunning, you know, to take a paved
bicycle trail, you've got the vinesand the fields on all sides of you,
the hills going up in the distance,and it went through the wine
villages as you make your way down.
Meursault was a place that Istopped in, a beautiful little
(27:21):
village and I stopped at a bar andsat outside, had a glass of wine.
That was one of my favorite moments,but, you know, the villages were pretty
close together, you know, like every10, 15 minutes you'd ride into one.
Apparently, this is where some of thetop wine producers of Burgundy have
their chateaus and their operations.
(27:43):
I know some folks would like to arrangetastings at the different wine chateaus.
I didn't do this, I just stopped ata bar in town and that was fine for
me, but I would ride past and youwould see the processes happening.
You could smell the fermenting grapesas you ride through the village.
Annie Sargent (28:03):
Yes.
In September, yes, that's when theystart working the grapes in earnest.
Yeah, definitely.
That was very fun.
Let's see, going down your list.
You enjoyed the wine onthe patio in Meursault.
That's a beautiful place.
And then you took the Voie Vertebetween Chalon-sur-Saone and Mâcon.
So this was a different Voie Verte.
Howard Kantoff (28:24):
Yes, and like a perfect example of just the terrific
biking infrastructure in France.
A paved pathway began in Chalon, kindof went out through their suburban area,
but then the next thing you knew, youwere back in the fantastic landscapes.
There were more vineyards along thisparticular Voie Verte, because it's a
(28:50):
former railway, passageway, you wouldsee the old train stations as you moved
through, which was kind of a nice touch.
As I was approaching Macon at the southernend of this, it went through a tunnel, the
tunnel to .... I forget the name of it.
(29:12):
But this was the longest dedicatedbicycle tunnel, I think in all of
France, and possibly all of Europe.
It just went on and on, and on, maybeover a mile, you go inside the tunnel.
Annie Sargent (29:29):
Is it lit?
Howard Kantoff (29:30):
The Tunnel du Bois Clair.
Annie Sargent (29:32):
Tunnel du Bois Clair.
Howard Kantoff (29:33):
Yeah, there were little lights along the side, but you get in
there, and it was very dark, it wascold inside the tunnel, because you're
kind of going underneath the mountain,but that was a fun, exciting, and
kind of quirky part of the adventure.
Annie Sargent (29:49):
So were there any goats, or cows, or any...
because in the Pyrenees, goats andcows love to go in those tunnels.
Howard Kantoff (29:57):
I didn't see any, may have been some bats, but I'm not sure.
As far as I know, it was just me in there.
It was dank, damp, and dark.
Annie Sargent (30:08):
You definitely wanted to get to the other end of
this thing as fast as possible.
That's great.
That's great.
You visited the Abbaye de Cluny,which you mentioned earlier, and
you said it was very well worth it.
Howard Kantoff (30:22):
Terrific.
Just austere old, you couldfeel the history behind it.
Spent about an hour or so onthe site, in the buildings.
Well worth my time.
Annie Sargent (30:34):
And they had a place where you could lock up your bike.
Howard Kantoff (30:36):
Yeah, outside of the site, there were some bike racks.
It was no problem.
Annie Sargent (30:40):
Yeah, bike racks are very common in France.
It's usually easier to find a bike rackthan a parking spot, most of the time.
I have a question.
At any point during this trip,did you think, Oh, I should
have booked a guided tour?
Howard Kantoff (30:56):
Not really.
This is kind of, you know, my personalchoice, this is how I wanted to do it.
I wanted to do the planning.
The one point in the year I get alittle bit of me time, as we say.
And something I wanted to mention toyour listeners, there are a million
ways of doing this, and it reallydepends what you prefer from the solo
(31:21):
planned tour, there's companies thatwill set you up for an independent
tour, but they'll handle the bookings,they'll give you a GPS that tells you
where to go, and everything's set,although it's still an independent tour.
You can do, there are tour groupsand people enjoy that, something I
(31:41):
might do one day, you know, as I getolder, and just want somebody else to
handle all the details and the work.
Annie Sargent (31:48):
Yes.
And also there's a lot of accommodationsin France that are bike friendly.
They usually have a, they will havea locked garage space for the bikes,
they'll have basic repair tools if youwant to tune up your bike or whatever.
Howard Kantoff (32:04):
Yeah, that's what I found every day, as I was getting ready,
I would send each of the hotels a note,Oh, I have a bicycle, and they'd write
back, right away, no problem, we havespace, and they were ready for that.
Annie Sargent (32:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's very good in France.
You typically don't really, Imean, you don't have to bring
your bike into your hotel room.
They'll have a place for it somewhere.
Howard Kantoff (32:27):
Right, which I've done on some of my United States tours,
take the bike right into the room.
Annie Sargent (32:32):
Yeah.
Which, I mean, it works, that's what youhave to do, that's what you have to do.
Yeah.
Number seven is a night in Tournus,Aux Terrasses, Hotel and Restaurant.
Want to hear about this.
Howard Kantoff (32:43):
What a surprising place, the Aux Terrasses.
Once again, I found it on the GoogleMaps, and I kind of looked into
it and lo and behold, there's aMichelin starred, one star restaurant
in this hotel, in this village.
And I thought, as long as I'mthere, I would like to try that out.
And so, I booked myselfthe night in the hotel.
(33:05):
It was pretty reasonably affordable, youknow, just a little over a hundred Euros.
And I booked a reservation in therestaurant as well, because why not?
And it was terrific.
The hotel itself, it was kindof that modern, stylish kind
of hotel, which I enjoyed.
The room was just so,very clean and very neat.
(33:28):
And then the meal in therestaurant, it was fantastic.
Between you and me and all of ourlisteners, I sort of preferred the
more home style, local kitchen cookingthat I found throughout the trip.
This was a very chefy,fine dining experience.
Don't get me wrong.
It was wonderful.
Annie Sargent (33:48):
But you don't want to do that every night.
Howard Kantoff (33:50):
No.
But I'm glad that I did, youknow, with the small plates of
the very finely tuned dishes.
It was very, very good.
Annie Sargent (33:58):
Yeah, so they want to bring you different flavors, different
textures, you have very small servingsof a dozen things and you like
some better than others, typically.
It's for the exploration, the adventureof the palate, I guess is what they do.
Howard Kantoff (34:13):
Yes.
But like I said, I enjoyed some of theother meals I had in some of the other
towns, even better than that, kind of likeI said, the home cooking, local style.
That really spoke to me.
Annie Sargent (34:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, in a lot of places in France,these villages where you stop for the
night, I mean, perhaps this personwent to cooking school, but possibly
not, possibly they're just enjoycooking and can run a restaurant.
Yeah.
Why not?
Fantastic.
All right.
So then, oh, you went to the EuroVélo 6.
(34:48):
So tell us about that a little bit.
Howard Kantoff (34:50):
That was something that I was really excited about.
That, you know, I had readabout for the longest time.
This is a Europe-wide system of bicyclepaths and trails, you know, from the
northern tip of Scandinavia down tothe Mediterranean and Spain, and they
just crisscross the entire continent.
(35:11):
The EuroVelo 6 goes from the AtlanticOcean just outside of not, through France,
and then it kind crosses through Burgundy,where I picked it up for a couple of days,
but then it moves onward into Switzerland,Geneva, into Germany, Austria, right
(35:33):
through Eastern Europe to the Black Sea.
It's about, you know,maybe 6,000 kilometers.
People do the whole thing, that wouldtake six to eight weeks to do it.
Annie Sargent (35:45):
Yeah.
Howard Kantoff (35:46):
I don't have that kind of vacation time.
But I was excited, like I said, topick up just a little piece of this in
Chalon-sur-Saone, heading up northeasttoward Besancon, and that too, it
was a signposted pathway, but thiskind of varied, you know, you'd be,
(36:07):
you would utilize whatever was there.
Canal paths, bicycle trails, orareas just out on the roads, but
you know, they were specificallychosen to be safe and traffic free.
You know, you would see theEuroVelo 6 sign every few minutes,
so it was very hard to get lost.
Annie Sargent (36:28):
So that was another question.
Did you ever get lost?
Did you have difficultiesfinding the Voie Verte?
Because sometimes you're like,okay, I'm in the town, but where
does it, where is it exactly?
Howard Kantoff (36:39):
Right.
For the most part I did fine, buta couple of times, exactly like
you're saying, okay, I'm in the town,where do I pick up the trailhead?
And for that, all thedifferent apps were my friend.
There's one called Komoot that hikersand cyclists probably know about.
(37:01):
So I was able to set up myroutes in advance, and have
guided direction throughout.
But like you're saying too, you know,if you're in a town and need to find
the trailhead, I found that Google Mapswas very effective in just getting me
from the center of town, say, to pick upthe Voie des Vignes outside of Beaune.
(37:26):
A couple of times on the Voie Verte,it got a little tricky, like I'd
make the wrong turn, and then aftera few minutes, like, yeah, it's
just doesn't feel right anymore.
I'd look at my phone, oh, I've gotten off,I need to get back and find the route.
But, that was uncommon.
For the most part, everything wasvery well signed and easy to navigate.
Annie Sargent (37:49):
Yeah, once you're on it it's pretty easy to follow it.
It's just finding the start sometimes.
We went to Mazamet to find thePassa Païs, which is, you know,
it's well-known Voie Verte.
And I even called thetourist office before I went.
And she says, well, just go to thetrain station, which made sense
(38:10):
because it's an old train track, right?
And I go there, and I'm, no, it'sjust a train station, you know.
And it wasn't very far, but it tooka little bit of, you know, a few
hesitant steps, and with GoogleMaps, we did find it, and we went to
it, and sure enough, there it was.
And most of the way, the PassaPaïs is, it's kind of a crushed,
(38:31):
crushed stone type of path, isthat what you had most of the time?
Howard Kantoff (38:36):
Most of what I found was paved tarmac kind of pathways,
occasionally some of the crushedstone or hard packed dirt, but most
of what I rode on was fully paved.
Annie Sargent (38:49):
Huh, huh, What sort of bike did you get?
Howard Kantoff (38:52):
This was a hybrid they gave me, sort of in
between a mountain bike and aroad bike, so it had the straight
handlebars, slightly thicker tires.
Annie Sargent (39:03):
Yes.
Howard Kantoff (39:03):
It worked out just fine.
Annie Sargent (39:05):
Yes, yes, I think they call those a VTC, Vélo Tout
Terrain, or Vélo Tout, whatever.
Yeah, they're pretty common, that'swhat my husband rides as well.
Yeah.
And they probably would have rented youan electric bike if you had wanted that.
Oh, sure.
I saw other cyclists, moving in a, youknow, back and forth in all directions on
(39:27):
all types of bikes from, you know, yourhardcore racing bikes, to electric bikes,
to kind of more upright comfortable bikes.
It was all out there.
Yeah, yeah.
All right.
So, do you have any advice forpeople who want to do this?
What should they be aware of?
How do you feel about doing thissort of vacation after doing it?
Howard Kantoff (39:47):
My advice is get out in France on a bicycle.
It's a terrific way to see thecountryside, to see the areas
in between the towns, experiencethe landscape and the villages.
I find, if you're going to be on thatbicycle more than a couple hours per
day, you want to have the padded shorts.
(40:08):
It's going to be important.
And do some planning in advance, you know,have all plans, you know, you'll veer off
of at some point, but it's good to kindof have a basic idea where you're going.
I discovered that it was actuallyimportant, as you've mentioned on the
podcast, to you know, make reservationsfor dinner in advance when you can,
(40:30):
because some of these small restaurantswould fill up and you could be turned
away and if there are only two orthree restaurants in a town and one
of them is closed on a Tuesday night,it's helpful to have a reservation.
And I was able, in some cases, duringthe day and the afternoon, you know,
just to be safe, go online and mostof them had online reservations.
(40:53):
It made things very easy.
Annie Sargent (40:54):
It's very important because, and even when it comes to
these accommodations, even though theyare inexpensive, if there's a wedding
taking place that weekend, or ifthere's an event of any sort, it all
of a sudden, everything's booked up.
And you're like, well, I'm inthe middle of nowhere, why would
anybody want to come stay here?
Well, it's because there's an eventof some sort that you don't know about
(41:17):
and also if you make reservations,it ensures that it is open that
day, you know, so many people haveno concept of when these, you know,
when the stores, the restaurants,the hotels might open or close.
So it's best to try and reserve.
Howard Kantoff (41:34):
Right.
And that goes to my other piece of advice.
And maybe in hindsight, kind ofplanning things out and being aware
of, you know, the things you want todo and making sure that they are open
on the days that you'll be there,whether that's a particular museum
or a restaurant or a village market.
(41:55):
I found myself I'd be in a smalltown, it's like, oh, the market was
yesterday, or the market was tomorrow.
Luckily, when I met up with my wife inDijon, it was Saturday morning, that was
the market day, so I got to experiencethat, but yeah, in other places, there
was a photography museum in one ofthe towns, in Chalon-sur-Saone, where
(42:19):
the founder of photography was from.
Annie Sargent (42:22):
I've been to that one, it's very nice.
It's a good one.
Howard Kantoff (42:25):
Yeah, I was very interested, but the day that I was
rolling through town it was not open.
Annie Sargent (42:30):
Yeah, it happens.
It's best if you look these things upbefore you arrive to make sure, I mean,
you might not be able to be there on theday it's open, but at least you won't be
looking forward to this, and then, oh...
you know.
Howard Kantoff (42:45):
Right, and then alongside of that, back to what we
were saying before, you know, allowa little extra time in your day to
do these things, you know, maybe alittle bit less riding and more time
to see the things that you want to see.
Annie Sargent (42:59):
In your document you recommend some restaurants,
some food items that you liked.
It sounds like you enjoy justeveryday French foods, really.
Howard Kantoff (43:09):
Yeah, that, that's pretty accurate to say.
Annie Sargent (43:12):
But you did try Andouillette.
Ha, ha, ha.
Howard Kantoff (43:16):
Yeah, and I know, you know, I listened to dozens of your
shows getting ready for this trip,and I know in one of them, you covered
this, you talked about the Andouillette,but there I was thinking I'm going to
get, you know, some kind of sausagethat I had it in my mind's eye.
Annie Sargent (43:34):
Yeah, you thought you were in Louisiana, and you were not.
Howard Kantoff (43:38):
Right.
And it came out, and youknow, I took my first bite.
I'm like, oh, okay, thatthis is not what I expected.
It's a little different, I'mgoing to enjoy this as best I can.
I'm sitting there at the table andI looked up Andouillette and I found
a description, it said you know,this, that, then it said, "the smell
(44:00):
of decay" and that's what it was.
It was a good experience.
I'm glad that I had it, but would probablyorder something different unless you
are, you know, that's something thatyou really enjoy, the smell of decay.
Annie Sargent (44:18):
Yes, yes.
Let's see, what else did you have?
Oh, the question, didyou make any mistakes?
Well, you've talked about this,perhaps you should have brought
your own bike, perhaps you shouldhave planned shorter rides.
Yes, that you didn't have quiteenough time as you would have liked
to wander around and just take iteasy, which you know, it makes sense.
Howard Kantoff (44:39):
Yeah.
And then, I would like tomention really quickly, so I did
meet up with my wife in Dijon.
We rented a car, which we used,I wanted to show her some of the
beautiful areas that I had seen.
We drove through the wine area down toBeaune, and we got a good taste of that
(45:00):
for half a day or so, and then we tookthe car and drove it all the way to Paris.
Which presented probably the highestlevel of stress of the entire trip,
you know, to make sure are we goingto get this thing back in time so
we don't get charged an extra day?
Are going to be able to fill it with gas?
(45:20):
That kind of raised theblood pressure a little bit.
Annie Sargent (45:23):
You were back in real life, everyday life with a car.
Howard Kantoff (45:27):
Right, approaching Paris in the suburbs in, you know,
traffic jams, just like back in Chicago.
You know, at the end of the day, wegot the car back, got settled in, we
stayed in Montmartre, and we had acouple of days there, and that was
also a terrific part of the trip.
We really enjoyed.
Annie Sargent (45:46):
Yeah.
It's true that, you know, carsdo raise your blood pressure,
especially traffic, city traffic.
Oh, Paris, oh, yeah, not my idea of agreat time, but sometimes you need a car.
Well, it sounds like you also listenedto a lot of the podcast episodes,
you listened to trip reports andall that, and that helped you some.
Howard Kantoff (46:04):
Absolutely.
Annie Sargent (46:05):
You know, it's always good to hear from people, because
you can read a lot, but you'realways wondering, is this for real?
Did these people really do this?
Whereas, you know, you'retalking about it, you did it.
Howard Kantoff (46:17):
Right, it was helpful, yeah, just to get a sense of you
know, what I'm in for and, you know,I've decided to go to this area.
I don't want to know everything.
I want to discover some things for myself,but to have a general idea what it's
going to be like or what I can expect.
Annie Sargent (46:34):
Would you do this again at some other time in your life,
perhaps a different part of France?
Howard Kantoff (46:39):
Oh, absolutely.
I plan on it for sure.
Annie Sargent (46:43):
Fantastic.
Wonderful.
Well, Howie, thank you somuch for talking to me.
It's been very interesting becausethis is something I aspire to and I
just haven't gotten to it, you know,but you really need several days
to experience this sort of thing.
I think six days is probably a goodamount of time, wouldn't you say?
Howard Kantoff (47:02):
For sure, you know, and like I was saying, I think everyone's
a little different, you know, howmuch being out of a bicycle seat
that they can handle, but I enjoy it.
And so six days to fully immerseand kind of just settle into that,
you know, worked great for me.
Annie Sargent (47:18):
Wonderful.
Merci beaucoup Howard, and I wish youmore wonderful bike trips in France.
Howard Kantoff (47:24):
Merci Annie, it's been a pleasure.
Annie Sargent (47:26):
Au revoir.
Howard Kantoff (47:27):
Au revoir.
Annie Sargent (47:35):
Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving
back and supporting the show.
Patrons get several exclusiverewards for doing that.
You can see them at patreon.com/JoinUs
. A shout out this week to new patrons (47:49):
Lis Henderson, Hélène, Wendy Gebb, lizinCT?
Oh, I think it's Liz in Connecticut.
I think.
And Gwen Y.
And to all of my current patrons,it is wonderful to have you onboard
(48:09):
in the community of francophileswho keep this podcast going.
And to support Elyse, goto patreon.com/ElysArt.
And when you do, please don'tclick on the 'Join for free' button
because it won't help you or me.
This week I had a Zoom callwith my patrons and it's always
(48:30):
a pleasure talking to them.
I also published some photos andrecommendations for visiting new
museums and exhibits in Paris.
Paris is getting newmuseums, can you believe it?
I wouldn't think they neededmore, but they are getting more.
My thanks also to Audrey Jenkinsfor sending in a one-time donation
using any button on Join Us inFrance that says: 'Tip Your Guide'.
Audrey wrote (48:54):
"Thank you for taking me to France every week.
Your podcast got me through a difficultrecovery from a major surgery.
Every night I sat in bed listeningand for that time I was in France.
It gave me hope tolisten to you and Elyse".
Oh my God, Audrey, thatis so touching to me.
(49:14):
You know, this podcast is not going tocure cancer, but it helps people have
a great trip to France and it feeds ourpassion for France, which is necessary.
I wish you continued health andhopefully you can visit in person soon.
By the way, my husband washospitalized unexpectedly this week
and it was a scary time for us too.
(49:35):
I've never seen him so sick.
Thankfully, doctors did a greatjob and he's home and on the mend.
But these are scary timessometimes and, you know, every
little bit of positivity helps.
Somebody wrote this reviewof my tour this week.
They said (49:52):
"Thanks for an informative tour, I visited the Marais on
Sunday, so be prepared for crowds".
Yes, yes, crowds in theMarais is pretty normal.
I think it's best to visit theMarais on Monday through Thursday,
because of crowds and also some storeclosures that happen over the weekend.
(50:13):
Let me chat about my new foodtour in Paris on the VoiceMap app.
First of all, you may wonder, is a GPSapp really the right tool for a food tour?
And I would argue that it's the perfecttool because it is just you and me.
I show you the foods that you should get.
Photos appear on your app at theright time, I explain how to choose
(50:36):
cheese and wine and oysters, and Itell you how French people shop for
these items, I even have a kind of agraphic that I made to explain oysters.
Just like any other food tour guide, Iselected the best stores in a particular
part of Paris, and I give you the toolsto go in there and buy what you like.
(50:56):
You know what they say about give a mana fish and feed him for a day, teach him
how to fish and feed him for a lifetime?
Well, not as grand as all that.
My goal in writing this food tourwas to give you the tools to get
the best French gastronomy has tooffer again, and again, and again.
(51:17):
You're not just following someone who'shanding you little tastes, you are
learning how to do this by yourselves.
The tour starts at La Samaritaine andends at the top of Rue Montorgueil.
Along the way I tell stories, Irecommend restaurants, several of
them, I tried them all by the way, I'mnot recommending stuff just because
(51:39):
I saw it on TripAdvisor or whatever.
I tell you about regular life in thiswonderful regular neighborhood of Paris.
People say, oh I want toexperience real life in Paris.
Well, here's your chance.
I bet you would never go to LesHalles without this tour because
most visitors never make it there.
(51:59):
This one is my shortest tourand I think it's going to be
a favorite for lots of people.
If you walk it, please review it atthe end because it's brand new and
it needs a lot of reviews to get someattention from people who don't know
me from Adam, so I am counting on you.
The other thing I want to say isthat those self-guided GPS tours on
(52:19):
the VoiceMap app are easy to follow.
And even people who are a little biton the technophobe end of the spectrum
can install this app and use it.
It's pretty easy.
And that's why I don't writethe app, VoiceMap does this,
I just write the content.
And they take care of the app,they keep it updated, they keep
making it better all the time.
(52:42):
You can enjoy this tour on your ownschedule, you can start and stop
as many times as you wish, you canlisten from anywhere in the world,
and as many times as you'd like, youown it, you can skip around, go back
and listen again, play it from yoursofa, play it in Paris, it's all good.
And the photos enhance the experiencequite a bit as well, and I took
(53:02):
all of them, so you can see myhandy dandy work with my iPhone 13.
I didn't bring my big camera on this tripbecause, you know, if it's not flying or
playing basketball in a dark room, youdon't really need an L lens to do this.
You can do it with your iPhone.
Now, podcast listeners should buymy tours from my website because you
(53:23):
get a really nice discount of as muchas 30% from the price on the app.
And to see all of that, go to theboutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
My thanks to podcast editors,Anne and Cristian Cotovan,
who produced the transcripts.
Next week on the podcast, an episodeabout the Ariège Department with Elyse, a
(53:44):
fantastic place for folks who love natureand want to practice their French, as
well as go into a boulangerie and cheeseshops to enjoy some wonderful food.
Thank you for listening.
And I hope you join me next time sowe can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
(54:06):
produced by Annie Sargent andCopyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance.
It is released under a CreativeCommons, attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.
This is Join Us in France, episode 487,
quatre cent quatre vingt sept.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent, and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a tripreport with Howard Kantoff.
Imagine yourself pedaling along serenevineyard paths, through historic
(00:40):
villages, and alongside tranquil canals.
Yes, today's adventure is all abouta self-guided bike tour in one of
France's most celebrated wine regions.
You could drive if you wantedto, but Howard did it on a bike.
And we also discussed the logisticsof doing it on two wheels.
This podcast is supported by donors andlisteners who buy my tours and services,
(01:04):
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For the magazine part of the podcast,after the interview today, I'll
tell you about my food tour inParis because it was fun to write
and I want you to know about it.
(01:50):
Bonjour Howie Kantoff andwelcome to Join Us in France.
Howard Kantoff (01:54):
Merci, Annie.
Bonjour.
Annie Sargent (01:56):
How are you?
Howard Kantoff (01:57):
Very well.
Excited to speak with you.
Annie Sargent (02:00):
Oh, excited to talk to you as well.
You had some adventures in Franceand you did some stuff that I always
dream about doing, but I haven'tdone any of it yet, which is to
do an itinerant trip on a bike.
So you went from point to point,it was self-guided, right?
Howard Kantoff (02:17):
That is correct.
Annie Sargent (02:18):
Okay, so tell me how you organized this.
Well, first of all, did you do thisby yourself, were you with a group?
Howard Kantoff (02:23):
I was strictly by myself, six days of biking by myself.
After that, my wife came to meetme in Dijon and we spent three days
together, but the biking was solo.
Annie Sargent (02:35):
Solo.
And so this was entirely self-guided?
Howard Kantoff (02:39):
It was.
Annie Sargent (02:40):
Yeah.
And how did you prepare for this trip?
And what, well, first of all, whattime of the year did you do this trip?
Howard Kantoff (02:46):
This was late September, early fall.
Annie Sargent (02:50):
So just a few weeks ago, it was September, 2023.
Howard Kantoff (02:53):
That's right.
It's fresh in my mind.
Annie Sargent (02:55):
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
All right.
How did you organize this?
How did you research it?
How did it go?
All of that.
I want to know everything.
Howard Kantoff (03:04):
The planning and the research, that was half of the
fun or maybe a quarter of the fun.
I knew that as we're coming outof the pandemic, I wanted to take
an amazing trip out of the US.
I've done it before, butnot since the pandemic.
It was time to take a fantastic tripagain, and I just began searching
(03:26):
Google for best biking in Europe.
I was actually almost prepared to doa trip in Austria and Hungary on the
Danube River, I think it was the airfarethat set me back on that, and I made a
decision I would go in France, becausewhat's not to like about France?
(03:48):
And then I took the search fromthere, best biking in France.
I got some lists.
Various areas were mentioned, Burgundywas one of them, and I settled on that
because it just seemed to be right.
You know, there were, you can goin the Pyrenees, but I'm not a
super expert Tour de France typeof cyclist so that, you know.
Annie Sargent (04:11):
Most of us are not.
Howard Kantoff (04:13):
And so Burgundy seemed to have just about everything, some
hills, but not too challenging, beautifulscenery, the wine country, and I made a
decision that this is where I would go.
And from there, I had to figureout where am I going to begin?
Where am I going to stop?
Google was my friend andGoogle Maps was my friend.
(04:35):
And I figured Dijon would be a good placeto start, a decent sized city, that key
point, they had bike rental available.
I rented a bicycle, for better orfor worse, and there was an outfit
based in Dijon and Beaune calledBourgogne Evasion, they were terrific.
(04:58):
They had, you know, wanted to makesure I could get a decent bicycle, and
then from Dijon, I just, I looked atthe map, I did some reading, I went to
various websites, there was one, I thinkit was called Velo Tourisme de France,
which was a go to, I had it bookmarked.
And it kind of went in depth, what am Igoing to find, you know, right down to the
(05:23):
elevation level, how bad are the hills?
And that helped me map out the route.
The next thing I knew, you know,I had to make sure there was
places to stay, places to eat.
I stayed all in hotels and orBed and Breakfasts, you know,
modest, reasonably priced places.
(05:44):
And then I had to figure out thedistances for the rides each day, so
they weren't too short or too long.
And then I hammered out a routethat began in Dijon, and it kind
of looped South and then towardthe East, and it ended in Besançon.
Annie Sargent (06:02):
Besançon.
Yes.
Howard Kantoff (06:04):
Besançon.
After which I took a trainback to Dijon to meet my wife.
Annie Sargent (06:08):
Ah, so you brought your bike back to Dijon.
Howard Kantoff (06:11):
Yeah, that's where I rented it, and that's where I returned it.
Annie Sargent (06:15):
Very good.
How was it taking a bike on the train?
I want to hear about this.
Howard Kantoff (06:20):
That was a key learning experience.
In a nutshell, veryeasy, very user friendly.
The first time I had to do this, I'dgone four days without a drop of rain.
On the fifth day, I was stuck in thevillage of Sures, in a rainstorm and
(06:41):
I'm looking at my phone and I'm standingunder an awning behind somebody's
house in a small village as the rain'scoming down and the thunder is banging
and trying to figure out how am Igoing to get to St-Jean-de-Losne,
where my reservation is tonight.
It was about 15 more miles and Iwound up taking the train from Sures.
(07:03):
So easy.
I read about it, but you get down tothat moment when you're boarding the
train and you're a little nervous.
I brought the bike on the train.
There was another gentlemanwho did the same thing, who
had obviously done this before.
You bring it on, there's a little area forthe bicycles, and this man saw me kind of
fumbling around and he told me what to do.
(07:26):
There's these elastic straps at theside of the train that you just pull
over your seat just to secure the bike.
It was very, very easy.
You just roll it right aboard.
Now the cars are marked,whether they have bicycle space.
I did this two or three times and eachtime it was no trouble finding a space.
(07:48):
I've read that the long distanceroutes, the TGV, you may have to
book in advance or double checkthat they offer bicycle space.
Annie Sargent (07:58):
Yeah.
I think you have to pay a littlebit to take a bike on the TGV.
Did you have to pay at any point for yourbike or was it just part of your ticket?
Howard Kantoff (08:06):
No, it was just part of the ticket.
And I had downloaded the SNCF?
SCNF?
Annie Sargent (08:14):
SNCF, yes.
Howard Kantoff (08:15):
SNCF app on the phone, and it made things so easy.
I could just purchase myticket right then and there.
Nobody ever checked that I had aticket, but I'm sure that if I didn't
buy one, then they would check it.
And so...
Annie Sargent (08:30):
Yes.
Well, yeah, you should get aticket because it's mightily
unpleasant if you don't.
I mean, they don't check everytrain, but there are spot
checks, so that's important.
Howard Kantoff (08:38):
Yeah, I'm sure of it.
And that, like I said, it was anempowering experience to learn
how easy this was, and then I justhopped off at St-Jean-de-Losne.
The rain was still coming down, butI just had to ride to the hotel.
Annie Sargent (08:52):
You were close.
That's good.
That's good.
Yeah.
That's always a possibility.
And there are some train systems inFrance that are more, they're better
prepared for cyclists than others, okay?
So, probably this is one of the goodones, which is very good to know,
because typically if the trains youtried are well set up for bikes, it
(09:13):
means that most of the regional trainsin that region can handle bikes.
They do this all the time.
Howard Kantoff (09:19):
It seemed that way.
Yes.
Annie Sargent (09:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And also finding another cyclist whocould show you around that, that helped,
that saved you some grief, I'm sure.
Howard Kantoff (09:28):
Absolutely.
Annie Sargent (09:29):
And then the other trains, it was the same type of setup, right?
Howard Kantoff (09:32):
Yeah.
And then, by then I was an expert.
Annie Sargent (09:36):
You could help other people.
Howard Kantoff (09:38):
Right.
Annie Sargent (09:38):
That's fantastic.
Okay.
Well, did you run into any catastrophes?
Like, did you have a bike breakdown?
I don't know.
Howard Kantoff (09:46):
I'm hesitant to talk too much about it, the company I rented
from was terrific and very helpful.
On the first day, the bike thatI thought I was getting was not
the bike that they gave to me.
And so I had to sort of work thatout with them to get a proper
bike, for six days of riding.
They'd given me more of acomfort style with a mushy seat.
(10:09):
For long days on the bicycle, I'velearned that a harder, firmer seat
and style of bike is going to be best.
So I waited an extra hour, hourand a half, while they prepared
the bike that I ordered fromthem, and then I was on my way.
It was a little bit stressful becauseI guess, time is money and, you
(10:30):
know, you want to get to where you'regoing, and not be arriving after
dark or so late that you miss dinner.
The rainstorm, I would notcall that a catastrophe.
In the end, I think itmakes for a good story.
I came prepared.
I had my rain gear and rainjacket, but it was a thunderstorm.
(10:51):
And so, I didn't want to beout in the middle of a field,
by a river, in a thunderstorm.
Annie Sargent (10:56):
No, you do not.
Howard Kantoff (10:58):
If there's a will, there's a way, and you know, worked out just fine.
So no, no catastrophes, just afew minor hiccups along the way.
Annie Sargent (11:08):
Yeah.
And it's true that perhaps a lot ofserious cyclists, the ones that I've
talked to before, they bring their ownbikes typically, but that's another
whole, you know, level of difficulty.
Did you consider that?
Howard Kantoff (11:22):
I absolutely did consider it, but I'm still just a little
bit hesitant to go through all that.
The packing, the bikebox, the disassembling.
I consider myself a medium seriouscyclist, but not hardcore serious.
And so, maybe next time, it's time to trythat out, but then there's the logistics
(11:45):
of, okay, I've arrived, I'm at Charlesde Gaulle with a giant box, and what am
I going to do with this while I'm riding?
I mean, there's ways tofigure it out, I'm sure.
Annie Sargent (11:56):
Yeah, you'll hear an episode coming out soon
after we record this, where theydid this and they explain how.
So, there are ways, it's just,it adds a level of difficulty.
And I'm pretty sure also that if you finda good bike shop, they'll work with you.
I mean, they might not be preparedright as you arrive, as you
(12:17):
experienced, but eventually theytook care of you and gave you a bike
that didn't cause you any trouble.
Howard Kantoff (12:23):
It did not, it did not break down.
No flat tires.
I found the rental to be thepath of least resistance.
Annie Sargent (12:31):
Yeah, that sounds good to me.
All right, let's talk about your10 favorite things on this trip.
And if people want to see the detailsof, you know, your route, where you
went, all of that, it's in the document.
It's going to be in your guest notes, butwe're going to skip around a little bit.
I just want to go from, youknow, your favorite thing.
Because that's always adelight to hear about.
Howard Kantoff (12:52):
I would say overall, and this was day in, day out, just
the scenery and the landscape ofthis part of France was spectacular.
I had to pinch myself tomake sure I wasn't dreaming.
It was just so amazing and so beautiful.
And as I moved around, it would kindof shift and change a little bit.
(13:14):
On the second day, in between Chateauneufand riding down to Beaune, before I
hit the Voie des Vignes, it was justso completely amazing, like, you know,
giant hills with rock faces and horsesand cows grazing, like being right in
(13:34):
the middle of your very own painting.
I think that was probably thehighlight of the whole thing.
Annie Sargent (13:41):
We should briefly mention where you started and where you ended,
which you did, but tell us the kind of thestops, you know, I went from here to here.
I slept here and then I went to...
Howard Kantoff (13:52):
Okay, so the first day of riding I began in Dijon, and I went, I
started heading a little bit west throughthe Ouche Valley, and most of that was
along a canal side, and then I went awayfrom the canal, up into the hills, to
get to Chateauneuf-en-Auxois, I believe.
Annie Sargent (14:13):
Yeah.
Chateauneuf-en-Auxois.
Yep.
Howard Kantoff (14:15):
The canal paths were very flat, but then I had to go up
into the hills, which was a little morechallenging, but not insurmountable.
I spent the night in Chateauneuf.
Day two, it was from there to a middaystop in Beaune, and then you know, right
outside of Beaune, you pick up the Voiedes Vignes, which I took down to Chagny.
Annie Sargent (14:38):
Okay.
So, Voie des Vignes, tours to Chagny.
Okay.
Very good.
Howard Kantoff (14:42):
Spent the night in Chany, then the next day it was through
Chalon-sur-Saone and then onward,and that's where I picked up the
Voie Verte, just outside, or actuallyright in the middle of Chalon, picked
up the Voie Verte, and start headingsouthward, I spent the night in Cormatin.
(15:03):
Ah, very good!
From there, I completed the Voie Verte,went down to Mâcon through Cluny, and
then to Mâcon, and then I started headingback up north on the Voie Bleue, and
then I stopped for the night in Tournus.
And then, there were two more days fromTournus, it was back through Chalon,
(15:28):
and then I picked up the EuroVelo 6 andspent the night in St-Jean-de-Losne.
I learned it is not St-Jean-de-Losne,it's St-Jean-de-Losne.
Annie Sargent (15:42):
Yes, yes, it's Losne.
There's an S in the middlethat you don't say, yes.
Howard Kantoff (15:46):
Yeah, and that was the day where I kind of finished
off my day taking the train.
And then the next day itwas onward to Besançon.
Besançon to meet your wife.
Actually, I spent the night inBesançon, and then the next morning
took the train back to Dijon.
Annie Sargent (16:02):
Very good.
Yeah, so that sounds likea very nice adventure.
And mostly you didn'tride on roads, did you?
Howard Kantoff (16:10):
It was predominantly paved bike trails, and that was
another highlight I wanted to mention.
You know, I've read it's throughoutthe country, but I know that in this
part of the country the bicycle trailinfrastructure was just fantastic.
Here and there I had to go off the trailand take some roads, but they were always
(16:33):
deserted country roads, very few vehicles.
I always felt safe.
That was a big part of planning the trip.
I was not so interested on gettingon highways with trucks and cars.
The trail system in this area, thecanal paths and the Voie des Vignes,
Voie Vertes, they all kind of linkup with one another and it made
(16:57):
for a good sort of circular loop.
Annie Sargent (17:00):
Yeah.
So did you have any contacts with localsin the area ? Did you kind of reach out
to a biking club or anything like that?
Howard Kantoff (17:07):
Not so much.
I think as far as it got is Iwould say Bonjour as people were,
I was passing folks on the pathway.
But it was, you know, a couple smallconversations here and there, but I
was mostly on my own during the ridingportion of the trip, which was just fine.
Annie Sargent (17:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So did you have panniers?
What, how did you keep your stuff?
Howard Kantoff (17:33):
Yes, I rented two panniers from the company.
That, I've learned is really theway to go for an overnight trip.
Even still, I had topack pretty minimally.
I had a couple sets of bikingshorts and biking jerseys.
And then just maybe like one and a halfoutfits for the evenings to go to dinner.
(17:56):
My wife would be horrified, but I figuredout I'll be wearing this shirt, you
know, for a couple hours each night,I've only got so much space, I want
to look presentable, but I could notpack full outfits for every single day.
Annie Sargent (18:10):
No way.
And you probably had to do somesink laundry as you went along.
Howard Kantoff (18:15):
Actually no, I've done it before.
It might not have hurt with some ofthe, because I would reuse the bike
shorts and the biking jersey maybe acouple times, but it worked out okay.
Annie Sargent (18:28):
Yeah.
Well, you know, you have thescent of the trail, I guess.
That's how it works.
Howard Kantoff (18:33):
Right.
But there was always a hotshower at the end of the day.
Annie Sargent (18:37):
Yes.
Yeah.
And you are correct.
There are bike paths likethis all over France.
If you set your mind, if you set yourheart on a part of France, you can
research what's around there and youcan also reach out to a local club.
You can find, you know, bike cluband then whatever town, email them
and see if they send you some tips.
Howard Kantoff (18:59):
Right, right.
The company that rented the bicycle,Bourgogne Evasion, they also offer
guided tours of all shapes andsizes from say, an afternoon in the
wine country to multi day trips.
They have maps andsuggestions if you need them.
Annie Sargent (19:18):
Yeah.
And you never, I mean, obviously,you didn't have camping
gear or anything like that.
That was okay, right?
You were pretty secure.
You had booked your placesto stay in advance, perhaps?
Howard Kantoff (19:30):
I did, everywhere I stayed, I had booked in advance.
Annie Sargent (19:34):
So you had to make a pretty good guess how far you could go.
Howard Kantoff (19:37):
Right, right.
Annie Sargent (19:38):
Did that sometimes feel like too much or not enough?
Howard Kantoff (19:41):
I think in the end, so here in the Midwest United States you
can go 50 miles on a flat surface in fouror five hours, but the same 50 miles in
France, with some hills and you want tostop and take pictures and see things,
that might be a good 7, 8, 9 hours.
(20:04):
And so I think in the end, I would goanywhere from 30 to 45 miles per day.
And it was manageable, and thosewere not extreme distances for me.
Annie Sargent (20:16):
That's not what you, I mean, you're not
looking for extreme sports.
You're looking for a pleasant vacation.
Howard Kantoff (20:22):
Exactly a pleasure trip, but in the end, it always took,
it took more time than I expected.
Like, oh, I think I'll be able tomake this in six hours and it would
take eight hours because, you know,I stopped all the time to take
pictures, I took some videos as I went.
Annie Sargent (20:41):
And it would be a shame not to.
Yeah, you have to plan some of that.
You're going to go through somestunning landscapes and also some,
like you mentioned Cluny earlier, Ihope you stopped and looked around.
Howard Kantoff (20:55):
I did, and that was really, you know, that was one of the only
times or days where I actually stoppedand took in a bona fide destination site.
In Cluny, I went to the abbey,the monastery, which was well
worth it, you know, I spent aboutan hour and a half, but I had to
work that time into my schedule.
(21:17):
Other villages, I would stop for ahalf hour, maybe an hour, to enjoy
a glass of wine or have lunch or,you know, stop in the cathedral.
But there was not a whole lot of timefor deep exploration of historical
sites, et cetera, but just a little bit.
Annie Sargent (21:37):
Yeah.
Well, you probably could have seenmore of them possibly, but I guess
if you did that, you'd have to planon more like 20, 30 miles a day.
Howard Kantoff (21:48):
Exactly.
Annie Sargent (21:50):
Right.
Which can be done as well, butit's a choice you have to make.
Do I do more tourism ordo I do longer distances?
Howard Kantoff (21:57):
Right.
You know, overall, it all worked out, butI think I erred on the side of too much
riding, you know, like you said, maybe 20to 30 miles a day would be just fine and
allow a little more time to slow down,you know, spend a morning in a village,
sit in a cafe or whatever you want to do.
Annie Sargent (22:19):
Yeah, so a lot of these Voies Vertes, at least the ones in the
southwest where I live, they will haveplaces that you can go off to, you know,
there's a waterfall in this direction,or there's a cave you can visit, or
there's, you know, things like that,that as you read about the Voies Vertes,
some of them take you to some reallyfun outdoor things that you can do.
Howard Kantoff (22:42):
Right.
And, I'd seen a few of these in themap as I was planning the trip, but I
really didn't make it to any so much.
I pretty much stuck to the path.
Annie Sargent (22:52):
So La Vallée de l'Ouche, where you started,
has a steam train, for example.
So that's the sort of thing, like,typically French families, when they do
this, especially when they have kids,they will do shorter distances, and they
will just stop at the steam train, stopat the cave, so they ride for perhaps
(23:12):
three hours total during the day.
And then they just go fromfun activity to fun activity.
And there's plenty of VoieVertes where you can do that.
It's just a matter of finding them, youknow, that's always the trick is doing
the research, but it's part of the fun.
Howard Kantoff (23:26):
Absolutely.
There was one site that I discovered onthe map in between, it was in between
Chateauneuf and Beaune, and I justsaw it in the Google Map, the Abbaye
Saint-Marguerite, which was, you know,this thing I saw on the path, and I kind
(23:47):
of looked it up, and it was an abandonedmonastery in the middle of the hills.
And it just looked like, you know, therewere no roofs, no ceilings, the grass
was just growing up through the walls.
And I thought, I would like to go bythat, I sort of adjusted my route, so
I would take the, you know, get offof the pathway, and take this tiny
(24:10):
little road through the hills so thatI would pass the Saint-Marguerite.
I did this and it was beautiful, thepath got a little bit rough along
the way, and then I came over a hilland I saw it in the distance up on
the hilltop and I was very excited.
However, when I actually gotto the site, I discovered to
(24:32):
my dismay that it was closed.
It was under private ownership and theywere renovating the site for tourism.
So I only got as close as the barbed wirefence that was surrounding the area, but
I was able to see it off in the distance.
But that would be one example where I kindof adjusted my route to go see something
(24:56):
that I thought would be interesting.
I'm glad I did too.
Annie Sargent (24:59):
Yeah, and very often these places are closed off to the
public because they might be dangerous.
They don't want an old wall falling onpeople or something like that, so...
Howard Kantoff (25:07):
Surely, no.
Annie Sargent (25:08):
Yeah.
Okay.
We got distracted fromyour 10 favorite things.
Let's get back to number one, shall we?
Howard Kantoff (25:15):
Of course.
Annie Sargent (25:16):
So that was cycling the Ouche Valley.
It starts just outside of Dijon and thenmaking your way to Châteauneuf-en-Auxois.
And that was mostly scenery, right?
Howard Kantoff (25:27):
Yeah, and primarily a canal path, right, and so alongside
the canal, it was delightful, you'dgo, there'd be the locks, and every
lock would have a little house,where the lock keeper, I don't know
if they really live there, but I sawseveral people showing up to do some
maintenance or to let boats through.
(25:48):
You would see the boats going through thecanal, some of them, I've read, you know,
you can do a boat and bicycle tour, so youwould see the people cruising along on the
boat, they'd have their bicycles up there,it looked like a delightful way to travel,
and I would just kind of roll on by them.
Annie Sargent (26:06):
Yes, this is very popular in that part of the country.
You have a bike on the boat, the boatstops and you go off to explore somewhere
and then you come back and have a nicemeal that somebody prepared for you.
It's pretty good.
It's pretty good.
All right.
Number two was the stunning scenery,like we just mentioned, and then you
did the Véloroute Voie des Vignes.
(26:28):
I want to hear about this.
Howard Kantoff (26:30):
Yes, that was an absolute highlight of the entire trip.
This was a dedicated bicycle paththat shot straight through the
vineyards, beginning outside ofBeaune, and it goes about 15 miles
down to Chaudenay and then Chagny.
This was something I discovered inmy research, it was almost kind of
(26:52):
a centerpiece of the entire tour.
Like, this is a destination,something I want to do.
Annie Sargent (26:59):
You wanted to do this, yeah, yeah.
Howard Kantoff (27:00):
It was absolutely stunning, you know, to take a paved
bicycle trail, you've got the vinesand the fields on all sides of you,
the hills going up in the distance,and it went through the wine
villages as you make your way down.
Meursault was a place that Istopped in, a beautiful little
(27:21):
village and I stopped at a bar andsat outside, had a glass of wine.
That was one of my favorite moments,but, you know, the villages were pretty
close together, you know, like every10, 15 minutes you'd ride into one.
Apparently, this is where some of thetop wine producers of Burgundy have
their chateaus and their operations.
(27:43):
I know some folks would like to arrangetastings at the different wine chateaus.
I didn't do this, I just stopped ata bar in town and that was fine for
me, but I would ride past and youwould see the processes happening.
You could smell the fermenting grapesas you ride through the village.
Annie Sargent (28:03):
Yes.
In September, yes, that's when theystart working the grapes in earnest.
Yeah, definitely.
That was very fun.
Let's see, going down your list.
You enjoyed the wine onthe patio in Meursault.
That's a beautiful place.
And then you took the Voie Vertebetween Chalon-sur-Saone and Mâcon.
So this was a different Voie Verte.
Howard Kantoff (28:24):
Yes, and like a perfect example of just the terrific
biking infrastructure in France.
A paved pathway began in Chalon, kindof went out through their suburban area,
but then the next thing you knew, youwere back in the fantastic landscapes.
There were more vineyards along thisparticular Voie Verte, because it's a
(28:50):
former railway, passageway, you wouldsee the old train stations as you moved
through, which was kind of a nice touch.
As I was approaching Macon at the southernend of this, it went through a tunnel, the
tunnel to .... I forget the name of it.
(29:12):
But this was the longest dedicatedbicycle tunnel, I think in all of
France, and possibly all of Europe.
It just went on and on, and on, maybeover a mile, you go inside the tunnel.
Annie Sargent (29:29):
Is it lit?
Howard Kantoff (29:30):
The Tunnel du Bois Clair.
Annie Sargent (29:32):
Tunnel du Bois Clair.
Howard Kantoff (29:33):
Yeah, there were little lights along the side, but you get in
there, and it was very dark, it wascold inside the tunnel, because you're
kind of going underneath the mountain,but that was a fun, exciting, and
kind of quirky part of the adventure.
Annie Sargent (29:49):
So were there any goats, or cows, or any...
because in the Pyrenees, goats andcows love to go in those tunnels.
Howard Kantoff (29:57):
I didn't see any, may have been some bats, but I'm not sure.
As far as I know, it was just me in there.
It was dank, damp, and dark.
Annie Sargent (30:08):
You definitely wanted to get to the other end of
this thing as fast as possible.
That's great.
That's great.
You visited the Abbaye de Cluny,which you mentioned earlier, and
you said it was very well worth it.
Howard Kantoff (30:22):
Terrific.
Just austere old, you couldfeel the history behind it.
Spent about an hour or so onthe site, in the buildings.
Well worth my time.
Annie Sargent (30:34):
And they had a place where you could lock up your bike.
Howard Kantoff (30:36):
Yeah, outside of the site, there were some bike racks.
It was no problem.
Annie Sargent (30:40):
Yeah, bike racks are very common in France.
It's usually easier to find a bike rackthan a parking spot, most of the time.
I have a question.
At any point during this trip,did you think, Oh, I should
have booked a guided tour?
Howard Kantoff (30:56):
Not really.
This is kind of, you know, my personalchoice, this is how I wanted to do it.
I wanted to do the planning.
The one point in the year I get alittle bit of me time, as we say.
And something I wanted to mention toyour listeners, there are a million
ways of doing this, and it reallydepends what you prefer from the solo
(31:21):
planned tour, there's companies thatwill set you up for an independent
tour, but they'll handle the bookings,they'll give you a GPS that tells you
where to go, and everything's set,although it's still an independent tour.
You can do, there are tour groupsand people enjoy that, something I
(31:41):
might do one day, you know, as I getolder, and just want somebody else to
handle all the details and the work.
Annie Sargent (31:48):
Yes.
And also there's a lot of accommodationsin France that are bike friendly.
They usually have a, they will havea locked garage space for the bikes,
they'll have basic repair tools if youwant to tune up your bike or whatever.
Howard Kantoff (32:04):
Yeah, that's what I found every day, as I was getting ready,
I would send each of the hotels a note,Oh, I have a bicycle, and they'd write
back, right away, no problem, we havespace, and they were ready for that.
Annie Sargent (32:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's very good in France.
You typically don't really, Imean, you don't have to bring
your bike into your hotel room.
They'll have a place for it somewhere.
Howard Kantoff (32:27):
Right, which I've done on some of my United States tours,
take the bike right into the room.
Annie Sargent (32:32):
Yeah.
Which, I mean, it works, that's what youhave to do, that's what you have to do.
Yeah.
Number seven is a night in Tournus,Aux Terrasses, Hotel and Restaurant.
Want to hear about this.
Howard Kantoff (32:43):
What a surprising place, the Aux Terrasses.
Once again, I found it on the GoogleMaps, and I kind of looked into
it and lo and behold, there's aMichelin starred, one star restaurant
in this hotel, in this village.
And I thought, as long as I'mthere, I would like to try that out.
And so, I booked myselfthe night in the hotel.
(33:05):
It was pretty reasonably affordable, youknow, just a little over a hundred Euros.
And I booked a reservation in therestaurant as well, because why not?
And it was terrific.
The hotel itself, it was kindof that modern, stylish kind
of hotel, which I enjoyed.
The room was just so,very clean and very neat.
(33:28):
And then the meal in therestaurant, it was fantastic.
Between you and me and all of ourlisteners, I sort of preferred the
more home style, local kitchen cookingthat I found throughout the trip.
This was a very chefy,fine dining experience.
Don't get me wrong.
It was wonderful.
Annie Sargent (33:48):
But you don't want to do that every night.
Howard Kantoff (33:50):
No.
But I'm glad that I did, youknow, with the small plates of
the very finely tuned dishes.
It was very, very good.
Annie Sargent (33:58):
Yeah, so they want to bring you different flavors, different
textures, you have very small servingsof a dozen things and you like
some better than others, typically.
It's for the exploration, the adventureof the palate, I guess is what they do.
Howard Kantoff (34:13):
Yes.
But like I said, I enjoyed some of theother meals I had in some of the other
towns, even better than that, kind of likeI said, the home cooking, local style.
That really spoke to me.
Annie Sargent (34:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, in a lot of places in France,these villages where you stop for the
night, I mean, perhaps this personwent to cooking school, but possibly
not, possibly they're just enjoycooking and can run a restaurant.
Yeah.
Why not?
Fantastic.
All right.
So then, oh, you went to the EuroVélo 6.
(34:48):
So tell us about that a little bit.
Howard Kantoff (34:50):
That was something that I was really excited about.
That, you know, I had readabout for the longest time.
This is a Europe-wide system of bicyclepaths and trails, you know, from the
northern tip of Scandinavia down tothe Mediterranean and Spain, and they
just crisscross the entire continent.
(35:11):
The EuroVelo 6 goes from the AtlanticOcean just outside of not, through France,
and then it kind crosses through Burgundy,where I picked it up for a couple of days,
but then it moves onward into Switzerland,Geneva, into Germany, Austria, right
(35:33):
through Eastern Europe to the Black Sea.
It's about, you know,maybe 6,000 kilometers.
People do the whole thing, that wouldtake six to eight weeks to do it.
Annie Sargent (35:45):
Yeah.
Howard Kantoff (35:46):
I don't have that kind of vacation time.
But I was excited, like I said, topick up just a little piece of this in
Chalon-sur-Saone, heading up northeasttoward Besancon, and that too, it
was a signposted pathway, but thiskind of varied, you know, you'd be,
(36:07):
you would utilize whatever was there.
Canal paths, bicycle trails, orareas just out on the roads, but
you know, they were specificallychosen to be safe and traffic free.
You know, you would see theEuroVelo 6 sign every few minutes,
so it was very hard to get lost.
Annie Sargent (36:28):
So that was another question.
Did you ever get lost?
Did you have difficultiesfinding the Voie Verte?
Because sometimes you're like,okay, I'm in the town, but where
does it, where is it exactly?
Howard Kantoff (36:39):
Right.
For the most part I did fine, buta couple of times, exactly like
you're saying, okay, I'm in the town,where do I pick up the trailhead?
And for that, all thedifferent apps were my friend.
There's one called Komoot that hikersand cyclists probably know about.
(37:01):
So I was able to set up myroutes in advance, and have
guided direction throughout.
But like you're saying too, you know,if you're in a town and need to find
the trailhead, I found that Google Mapswas very effective in just getting me
from the center of town, say, to pick upthe Voie des Vignes outside of Beaune.
(37:26):
A couple of times on the Voie Verte,it got a little tricky, like I'd
make the wrong turn, and then aftera few minutes, like, yeah, it's
just doesn't feel right anymore.
I'd look at my phone, oh, I've gotten off,I need to get back and find the route.
But, that was uncommon.
For the most part, everything wasvery well signed and easy to navigate.
Annie Sargent (37:49):
Yeah, once you're on it it's pretty easy to follow it.
It's just finding the start sometimes.
We went to Mazamet to find thePassa Païs, which is, you know,
it's well-known Voie Verte.
And I even called thetourist office before I went.
And she says, well, just go to thetrain station, which made sense
(38:10):
because it's an old train track, right?
And I go there, and I'm, no, it'sjust a train station, you know.
And it wasn't very far, but it tooka little bit of, you know, a few
hesitant steps, and with GoogleMaps, we did find it, and we went to
it, and sure enough, there it was.
And most of the way, the PassaPaïs is, it's kind of a crushed,
(38:31):
crushed stone type of path, isthat what you had most of the time?
Howard Kantoff (38:36):
Most of what I found was paved tarmac kind of pathways,
occasionally some of the crushedstone or hard packed dirt, but most
of what I rode on was fully paved.
Annie Sargent (38:49):
Huh, huh, What sort of bike did you get?
Howard Kantoff (38:52):
This was a hybrid they gave me, sort of in
between a mountain bike and aroad bike, so it had the straight
handlebars, slightly thicker tires.
Annie Sargent (39:03):
Yes.
Howard Kantoff (39:03):
It worked out just fine.
Annie Sargent (39:05):
Yes, yes, I think they call those a VTC, Vélo Tout
Terrain, or Vélo Tout, whatever.
Yeah, they're pretty common, that'swhat my husband rides as well.
Yeah.
And they probably would have rented youan electric bike if you had wanted that.
Oh, sure.
I saw other cyclists, moving in a, youknow, back and forth in all directions on
(39:27):
all types of bikes from, you know, yourhardcore racing bikes, to electric bikes,
to kind of more upright comfortable bikes.
It was all out there.
Yeah, yeah.
All right.
So, do you have any advice forpeople who want to do this?
What should they be aware of?
How do you feel about doing thissort of vacation after doing it?
Howard Kantoff (39:47):
My advice is get out in France on a bicycle.
It's a terrific way to see thecountryside, to see the areas
in between the towns, experiencethe landscape and the villages.
I find, if you're going to be on thatbicycle more than a couple hours per
day, you want to have the padded shorts.
(40:08):
It's going to be important.
And do some planning in advance, you know,have all plans, you know, you'll veer off
of at some point, but it's good to kindof have a basic idea where you're going.
I discovered that it was actuallyimportant, as you've mentioned on the
podcast, to you know, make reservationsfor dinner in advance when you can,
(40:30):
because some of these small restaurantswould fill up and you could be turned
away and if there are only two orthree restaurants in a town and one
of them is closed on a Tuesday night,it's helpful to have a reservation.
And I was able, in some cases, duringthe day and the afternoon, you know,
just to be safe, go online and mostof them had online reservations.
(40:53):
It made things very easy.
Annie Sargent (40:54):
It's very important because, and even when it comes to
these accommodations, even though theyare inexpensive, if there's a wedding
taking place that weekend, or ifthere's an event of any sort, it all
of a sudden, everything's booked up.
And you're like, well, I'm inthe middle of nowhere, why would
anybody want to come stay here?
Well, it's because there's an eventof some sort that you don't know about
(41:17):
and also if you make reservations,it ensures that it is open that
day, you know, so many people haveno concept of when these, you know,
when the stores, the restaurants,the hotels might open or close.
So it's best to try and reserve.
Howard Kantoff (41:34):
Right.
And that goes to my other piece of advice.
And maybe in hindsight, kind ofplanning things out and being aware
of, you know, the things you want todo and making sure that they are open
on the days that you'll be there,whether that's a particular museum
or a restaurant or a village market.
(41:55):
I found myself I'd be in a smalltown, it's like, oh, the market was
yesterday, or the market was tomorrow.
Luckily, when I met up with my wife inDijon, it was Saturday morning, that was
the market day, so I got to experiencethat, but yeah, in other places, there
was a photography museum in one ofthe towns, in Chalon-sur-Saone, where
(42:19):
the founder of photography was from.
Annie Sargent (42:22):
I've been to that one, it's very nice.
It's a good one.
Howard Kantoff (42:25):
Yeah, I was very interested, but the day that I was
rolling through town it was not open.
Annie Sargent (42:30):
Yeah, it happens.
It's best if you look these things upbefore you arrive to make sure, I mean,
you might not be able to be there on theday it's open, but at least you won't be
looking forward to this, and then, oh...
you know.
Howard Kantoff (42:45):
Right, and then alongside of that, back to what we
were saying before, you know, allowa little extra time in your day to
do these things, you know, maybe alittle bit less riding and more time
to see the things that you want to see.
Annie Sargent (42:59):
In your document you recommend some restaurants,
some food items that you liked.
It sounds like you enjoy justeveryday French foods, really.
Howard Kantoff (43:09):
Yeah, that, that's pretty accurate to say.
Annie Sargent (43:12):
But you did try Andouillette.
Ha, ha, ha.
Howard Kantoff (43:16):
Yeah, and I know, you know, I listened to dozens of your
shows getting ready for this trip,and I know in one of them, you covered
this, you talked about the Andouillette,but there I was thinking I'm going to
get, you know, some kind of sausagethat I had it in my mind's eye.
Annie Sargent (43:34):
Yeah, you thought you were in Louisiana, and you were not.
Howard Kantoff (43:38):
Right.
And it came out, and youknow, I took my first bite.
I'm like, oh, okay, thatthis is not what I expected.
It's a little different, I'mgoing to enjoy this as best I can.
I'm sitting there at the table andI looked up Andouillette and I found
a description, it said you know,this, that, then it said, "the smell
(44:00):
of decay" and that's what it was.
It was a good experience.
I'm glad that I had it, but would probablyorder something different unless you
are, you know, that's something thatyou really enjoy, the smell of decay.
Annie Sargent (44:18):
Yes, yes.
Let's see, what else did you have?
Oh, the question, didyou make any mistakes?
Well, you've talked about this,perhaps you should have brought
your own bike, perhaps you shouldhave planned shorter rides.
Yes, that you didn't have quiteenough time as you would have liked
to wander around and just take iteasy, which you know, it makes sense.
Howard Kantoff (44:39):
Yeah.
And then, I would like tomention really quickly, so I did
meet up with my wife in Dijon.
We rented a car, which we used,I wanted to show her some of the
beautiful areas that I had seen.
We drove through the wine area down toBeaune, and we got a good taste of that
(45:00):
for half a day or so, and then we tookthe car and drove it all the way to Paris.
Which presented probably the highestlevel of stress of the entire trip,
you know, to make sure are we goingto get this thing back in time so
we don't get charged an extra day?
Are going to be able to fill it with gas?
(45:20):
That kind of raised theblood pressure a little bit.
Annie Sargent (45:23):
You were back in real life, everyday life with a car.
Howard Kantoff (45:27):
Right, approaching Paris in the suburbs in, you know,
traffic jams, just like back in Chicago.
You know, at the end of the day, wegot the car back, got settled in, we
stayed in Montmartre, and we had acouple of days there, and that was
also a terrific part of the trip.
We really enjoyed.
Annie Sargent (45:46):
Yeah.
It's true that, you know, carsdo raise your blood pressure,
especially traffic, city traffic.
Oh, Paris, oh, yeah, not my idea of agreat time, but sometimes you need a car.
Well, it sounds like you also listenedto a lot of the podcast episodes,
you listened to trip reports andall that, and that helped you some.
Howard Kantoff (46:04):
Absolutely.
Annie Sargent (46:05):
You know, it's always good to hear from people, because
you can read a lot, but you'realways wondering, is this for real?
Did these people really do this?
Whereas, you know, you'retalking about it, you did it.
Howard Kantoff (46:17):
Right, it was helpful, yeah, just to get a sense of you
know, what I'm in for and, you know,I've decided to go to this area.
I don't want to know everything.
I want to discover some things for myself,but to have a general idea what it's
going to be like or what I can expect.
Annie Sargent (46:34):
Would you do this again at some other time in your life,
perhaps a different part of France?
Howard Kantoff (46:39):
Oh, absolutely.
I plan on it for sure.
Annie Sargent (46:43):
Fantastic.
Wonderful.
Well, Howie, thank you somuch for talking to me.
It's been very interesting becausethis is something I aspire to and I
just haven't gotten to it, you know,but you really need several days
to experience this sort of thing.
I think six days is probably a goodamount of time, wouldn't you say?
Howard Kantoff (47:02):
For sure, you know, and like I was saying, I think everyone's
a little different, you know, howmuch being out of a bicycle seat
that they can handle, but I enjoy it.
And so six days to fully immerseand kind of just settle into that,
you know, worked great for me.
Annie Sargent (47:18):
Wonderful.
Merci beaucoup Howard, and I wish youmore wonderful bike trips in France.
Howard Kantoff (47:24):
Merci Annie, it's been a pleasure.
Annie Sargent (47:26):
Au revoir.
Howard Kantoff (47:27):
Au revoir.
Annie Sargent (47:35):
Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving
back and supporting the show.
Patrons get several exclusiverewards for doing that.
You can see them at patreon.com/JoinUs
. A shout out this week to new patrons (47:49):
Lis Henderson, Hélène, Wendy Gebb, lizinCT?
Oh, I think it's Liz in Connecticut.
I think.
And Gwen Y.
And to all of my current patrons,it is wonderful to have you onboard
(48:09):
in the community of francophileswho keep this podcast going.
And to support Elyse, goto patreon.com/ElysArt.
And when you do, please don'tclick on the 'Join for free' button
because it won't help you or me.
This week I had a Zoom callwith my patrons and it's always
(48:30):
a pleasure talking to them.
I also published some photos andrecommendations for visiting new
museums and exhibits in Paris.
Paris is getting newmuseums, can you believe it?
I wouldn't think they neededmore, but they are getting more.
My thanks also to Audrey Jenkinsfor sending in a one-time donation
using any button on Join Us inFrance that says: 'Tip Your Guide'.
Audrey wrote (48:54):
"Thank you for taking me to France every week.
Your podcast got me through a difficultrecovery from a major surgery.
Every night I sat in bed listeningand for that time I was in France.
It gave me hope tolisten to you and Elyse".
Oh my God, Audrey, thatis so touching to me.
(49:14):
You know, this podcast is not going tocure cancer, but it helps people have
a great trip to France and it feeds ourpassion for France, which is necessary.
I wish you continued health andhopefully you can visit in person soon.
By the way, my husband washospitalized unexpectedly this week
and it was a scary time for us too.
(49:35):
I've never seen him so sick.
Thankfully, doctors did a greatjob and he's home and on the mend.
But these are scary timessometimes and, you know, every
little bit of positivity helps.
Somebody wrote this reviewof my tour this week.
They said (49:52):
"Thanks for an informative tour, I visited the Marais on
Sunday, so be prepared for crowds".
Yes, yes, crowds in theMarais is pretty normal.
I think it's best to visit theMarais on Monday through Thursday,
because of crowds and also some storeclosures that happen over the weekend.
(50:13):
Let me chat about my new foodtour in Paris on the VoiceMap app.
First of all, you may wonder, is a GPSapp really the right tool for a food tour?
And I would argue that it's the perfecttool because it is just you and me.
I show you the foods that you should get.
Photos appear on your app at theright time, I explain how to choose
(50:36):
cheese and wine and oysters, and Itell you how French people shop for
these items, I even have a kind of agraphic that I made to explain oysters.
Just like any other food tour guide, Iselected the best stores in a particular
part of Paris, and I give you the toolsto go in there and buy what you like.
(50:56):
You know what they say about give a mana fish and feed him for a day, teach him
how to fish and feed him for a lifetime?
Well, not as grand as all that.
My goal in writing this food tourwas to give you the tools to get
the best French gastronomy has tooffer again, and again, and again.
(51:17):
You're not just following someone who'shanding you little tastes, you are
learning how to do this by yourselves.
The tour starts at La Samaritaine andends at the top of Rue Montorgueil.
Along the way I tell stories, Irecommend restaurants, several of
them, I tried them all by the way, I'mnot recommending stuff just because
(51:39):
I saw it on TripAdvisor or whatever.
I tell you about regular life in thiswonderful regular neighborhood of Paris.
People say, oh I want toexperience real life in Paris.
Well, here's your chance.
I bet you would never go to LesHalles without this tour because
most visitors never make it there.
(51:59):
This one is my shortest tourand I think it's going to be
a favorite for lots of people.
If you walk it, please review it atthe end because it's brand new and
it needs a lot of reviews to get someattention from people who don't know
me from Adam, so I am counting on you.
The other thing I want to say isthat those self-guided GPS tours on
(52:19):
the VoiceMap app are easy to follow.
And even people who are a little biton the technophobe end of the spectrum
can install this app and use it.
It's pretty easy.
And that's why I don't writethe app, VoiceMap does this,
I just write the content.
And they take care of the app,they keep it updated, they keep
making it better all the time.
(52:42):
You can enjoy this tour on your ownschedule, you can start and stop
as many times as you wish, you canlisten from anywhere in the world,
and as many times as you'd like, youown it, you can skip around, go back
and listen again, play it from yoursofa, play it in Paris, it's all good.
And the photos enhance the experiencequite a bit as well, and I took
(53:02):
all of them, so you can see myhandy dandy work with my iPhone 13.
I didn't bring my big camera on this tripbecause, you know, if it's not flying or
playing basketball in a dark room, youdon't really need an L lens to do this.
You can do it with your iPhone.
Now, podcast listeners should buymy tours from my website because you
(53:23):
get a really nice discount of as muchas 30% from the price on the app.
And to see all of that, go to theboutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
My thanks to podcast editors,Anne and Cristian Cotovan,
who produced the transcripts.
Next week on the podcast, an episodeabout the Ariège Department with Elyse, a
(53:44):
fantastic place for folks who love natureand want to practice their French, as
well as go into a boulangerie and cheeseshops to enjoy some wonderful food.
Thank you for listening.
And I hope you join me next time sowe can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
(54:06):
produced by Annie Sargent andCopyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance.
It is released under a CreativeCommons, attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.
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