April 28, 2024 • 51 mins
In this episode of Join Us in France, Annie Sargent and Elyse Rivin delve deep into the life and musical journey of Maurice Ravel, one of France’s most celebrated composers. Known for his lush orchestrations and exquisite compositions like Boléro and the Piano Concerto in G Major, Ravel’s work blends technical mastery with rich cultural influences.
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We explore his Basque origins, his formative years in the vibrant cultural milieu of Paris, and his evolution as a composer against the backdrop of early 20th-century Europe. From his studies at the Paris Conservatoire to his challenges with the establishment, his involvement with the avant-garde Apaches, and his experiences during World War I, this episode paints a comprehensive portrait of Ravel's complex character and artistic genius.
Learn about his famous American tour, his philosophical disputes, and the creation of his revolutionary yet simplistic masterpiece, Boléro. Discover Ravel's lasting impact on music and why his innovative compositions continue to captivate and mesmerize audiences around the globe. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersections of history, culture, and timeless music.
Table of Contents for this Episode
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Annie Sargent (00:15):
This is Join Us in France, episode 491,
quatre cent quatre-vingt-onze.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent, and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a conversation withElyse Rivin of Toulouse Guided Walks about
(00:36):
the life and legacy of Maurice Ravel,one of France's most esteemed composers,
whose works continue to enchant andinspire music lovers around the globe.
For anyone with a passion for Frenchculture and music, understanding
Ravel's contributions is not justa pleasure, it's a necessity.
His compositions, including the everpopular Bolero and the intricate
(01:00):
Piano Concerto in G Major, showcasea unique blend of musical innovation,
technical skill, and a deep infusionof the cultural motifs that make
French music distinctly enchanting.
For francophiles, Ravel's music is agateway to understanding the broader
cultural movements of early 20th centuryFrance, reflecting the artistic literacy
(01:25):
and social currents of his time.
Stay tuned as we celebrate the richmusical heritage of Maurice Ravel and
discover why his legacy is essentialfor anyone who loves France and its
artistic contributions to the world.
This podcast is supported by donors andlisteners who buy my tours and services,
including my Itinerary Consult Service,my GPS self-guided tours of Paris on the
(01:50):
VoiceMap app, or take a day trip with mearound the Southwest in my electric car.
Only the Southwest though.
Somebody asked me this week, ifI could do this in Marseille and
Paris, no, only the Southwest, okay?
You can browse all of that on myboutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
Patreon supporters get new episodes assoon as they are ready, and ads free.
(02:15):
If that sounds good to you, be likethem, follow the link in the show notes.
For the magazine part of thepodcast, after my chat with Elyse
today, I'll share a few thoughtsabout taking the train in France.
There's been a lot of conversationabout that on the Facebook group for the
podcast and also on my itinerary calls.
(02:43):
Bonjour Elyse!
Elyse Rivin (02:44):
Bonjour, Annie.
Annie Sargent (02:45):
We have a composer with us today.
Elyse Rivin (02:48):
The first first time, I think.
Annie Sargent (02:50):
Yes, it is our first time talking about a composer as far as I know.
Elyse Rivin (02:54):
I belive so.
We've talked about writers, and we'vetalked about painters and famous people
in history, but I don't think we've evertalked about anybody who wrote music.
Annie Sargent (03:05):
Yes, and this one is easy to listen to, which is wonderful.
I will let you take it away, Idon't know that much about him.
I, so this morning I got up and I knewwe were going to record about Ravel.
So Maurice Ravel, you know,1875 is when he was born.
And so this is the end ofthe Romantic kind of period.
(03:28):
He's pretty much, really easy tolisten to, I'm sure all of you have
heard some of his music, even ifyou're not into classical music.
And so this morning when I gotup, I started listening to Ravel
and I've been listening to Ravelall morning and it's lovely stuff.
Elyse Rivin (03:40):
Lovely stuff.
It really is lovely stuff.
Yes.
It is very interesting too, I was thinkingas I was doing some research and making
some show notes, we've talked a lotabout painters and artists and writers.
This is also someone who showeda great gift for music, in this
case music, at an early age.
It's like there's a wholecollection of these people who
(04:01):
were talented from the beginning.
Annie Sargent (04:03):
Well, I think one of the important things in life is to
recognize what your kids are good at andthen encourage them in that direction.
And some people do thatwell, and some people don't.
Elyse Rivin (04:15):
That is very true.
So, Maurice Ravel he was bornactually in the Basque country.
He was born in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
But as a baby, a little baby, his familymoved to Paris and that is where he
basically, he grew up and that is whereit really he lived for most of his life.
And interestingly enough, his parents whowere not artists, but were very interested
(04:39):
in the arts, were interested in music,had friends who were in the arts, were
apparently very, very cultivated people,very modern for the time that he was
born 1875, which is really when, thinkabout it, that in 1874 was the first
time the word impressionism was used,was one year before his birth, right?
(05:00):
Then that was of course inrelation to the painting by Monet.
And so the last quarter of the19th century is a period of great
change and a lot of creativityand invention in all the arts.
Annie Sargent (05:13):
Right, right.
Elyse Rivin (05:14):
And particularly painting and music too.
And of course, someone who was,who became an associate, but was
a little bit older was Debussy.
Annie Sargent (05:22):
Sure.
Elyse Rivin (05:23):
And eventually, someone I know you love a lot, Gabriel Fauré, who
a little bit later on in the story ofRavel was actually one of his teachers.
Annie Sargent (05:32):
Right.
Yes.
Fauré, if you don't know themusic of Gabriel Fauré, do
yourself a favor and listen to it.
It's absolutely wonderful.
Elyse Rivin (05:40):
It's what Annie loves, Annie loves it.
So Maurice was basically brought upin this very encouraging atmosphere,
if you want to call it that.
And his mom, even though apparentlyshe didn't have any Spanish
ancestors, loved Spanish music andplayed Spanish music in the house.
And he grew up listening to Spanishmelodies a lot, melodies from Andalusia,
(06:02):
connected to, I suppose, I can hear themin my head, you know, basically, all
of those strange rhythms and melodiesthat come from the South of Spain.
And he was interested in all of thesekinds of musics that were not part
of the classical tradition in France.
And so his parents allowed him to starthaving piano lessons at the age of six.
Annie Sargent (06:23):
It's a very good time to
Elyse Rivin (06:24):
start.
It's a very good time to start.
He apparently wanted them.
He was really happy to have them.
And at the age of 12, he began hisfirst classes in musical composition.
This is already very impressive asfar as I'm concerned, because as much
as I have spent years in the visualarts, music is a mystery to me.
(06:44):
I love it, but I can't produce a noteon key and the idea that people can, and
that they can write music, to me it'sjust like a miracle of the gods, you know?
I mean, this is just...
it's wonderful, you know.
So at the age of 12 he begancomposition, and two years later in
1889, he entered the conservatory.
Annie Sargent (07:03):
Yes, which is normal.
I mean, in France, if you are goodat music and if you're, you know,
motivated to learn music, the normalcourse is to enter the conservatory.
And they do normal school, so they willdo their French, Math, History, all of
that, but they also do a lot of music.
Elyse Rivin (07:21):
And it's very interesting because he did stay in the conservatory,
actually for several years, butapparently, he, I don't know if he
wrote it down or it was simply thathe's told his parents and people
around him, he found it a littlebit discouraging because he thought
it was too conservative, basically.
He was interested even at anearly age in experimentation.
(07:43):
And obviously you have to have the base,you have to have the base for composition.
You have to have the base for differentways of putting music together.
But he was at odds with a lot of whatwas going on in the conservatory.
And at one point he left, and he actuallywent and studied with Gabriel Fauré,
who was at the time considered to bethe greatest living French composer.
Annie Sargent (08:04):
They were right.
Elyse Rivin (08:05):
They were right.
And interestingly enough, Fauréfound Ravel to be very interesting
because of his new ideas.
It must have been interesting for Fauré,I don't know anything really about
him, but to have a student who wasinventive, I mean, I can imagine it, I
transpose it into the visual arts andI can just say, yes, that's wonderful.
(08:25):
You have somebody who has an ideathat they want to do something.
It's not just copying otherpeople, that kind of thing.
Annie Sargent (08:31):
Which, I mean, but it's okay if a young student starts
by copying other people, right?
Right.
But then you have to sort of break out.
Somewhere you have to doyour own thing, you know.
You have to find your own voice.
That's the right term forit, to find your own voice.
And so apparently, Ravel, because of this,because of this attitude that was a little
bit off from what was considered to beeven mainstream at the time, he was very,
(08:55):
very frustrated because four times hepresented himself as a candidate for the
Prix de Rome, which is the prize, whichis a prize, I believe it's in painting,
and it's in writing, and it's in music.
The Prix de Rome.
And four times he came in second.
Oh.
Elyse Rivin (09:11):
He never won it.
Strangely enough, he was never the top,he was never considered the top, but...
but, by the time he was in hisearly twenties, he was starting to
become well known for his music.
Annie Sargent (09:22):
Wow, that's impressive.
Elyse Rivin (09:24):
And he was known both as a composer and as a pianist.
He was a magnificent pianist.
I don't know, since he died in 1937, theremust be some recordings of him playing.
I don't know if there are.
Annie Sargent (09:36):
Probably, yeah.
Elyse Rivin (09:38):
Some very early scratchy, you know, phonograph ones, it
would be interesting to find one.
He wound up having a group of peoplewho basically gravitated around him
in Paris because he was an odd fellow.
I mean, he was, if you see pictures ofhim, he was rather interesting looking.
He kind of reminds me ofa little bit of a ferret.
You know, he was very small,he was only 5.3, which means
(10:00):
he was, really not big at all.
My height.
Well, you and I.
You think you're five feet, I don'tthink, I think you're taller than
that, but he weighed 48 kilos.
You and I together, if we tookoff, you know, one arm would weigh
48 kilos, you know, it's like...
Annie Sargent (10:14):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm beyond that.
Elyse Rivin (10:16):
I mean, he was really small, and he, apparently his
entire life was just his music.
He was never in his entire life known tohave any romantic relationships, men or
women, nothing, his life, yeah, nothing.
There's no scuttlebutt, there's no gossip.
There's some suggestion thatmaybe he had some tendencies,
(10:36):
but he never acted on them.
Basically, he was really so devoted to hismusic and that was the center of his life.
So, I read a whole bunch ofdifferent articles and they
said, no, no, nobody knows of anyparticular romantic connection.
Annie Sargent (10:48):
Now, when you said tendencies, you mean
perhaps he preferred males?
Elyse Rivin (10:51):
Perhaps he preferred men and didn't want to act on it.
I mean, it's not clear becausecertainly he was gravitating in a world
where it was perfectly acceptable.
The end of the 19th century,beginning of 20th century, the
bohemian life of Paris was not alife where you had to be correct.
I mean, if you think about whatpeople like Picasso and all of
his painter friends did, I mean,they did just about everything.
(11:13):
I mean, you know, we're talkingabout sleeping with anybody
you want to, taking drugs.
I mean, it was very, very,very free and bohemian.
Annie Sargent (11:21):
Right.
but at the same time, people werepunished for homosexuality in France.
Perhaps he didn't feel asfree as, you know, yeah.
Elyse Rivin (11:31):
In any event, it apparently there was never really a
lot of gossip about him in that way.
So it's kind of becamethe mystery of his life.
Was it just music?
Or was he timid?
Was, you know, what the reasons were?
In any event, he wound up havingthis enormous group of musicians,
composers, and artists around him.
And they called themselves the Apaches.
Annie Sargent (11:52):
Oh, why?
Elyse Rivin (11:54):
Well, the term Apache, which of course in French would be
apache, which was of course taken fromhaving seen Wild Bill, what's his name?
The Buffalo Bill.
You know, he came through Paris andFrance doing his show with bringing,
you know, Native Americans with him.
The term of course got picked up by theFrench and it was used to describe the bad
(12:15):
kids, like delinquents in neighborhoods.
That was the original.
Annie Sargent (12:18):
Yes.
That's what I know the term as.
Elyse Rivin (12:21):
So apparently, because these were the bad,
bad boys and girls of the arts.
Annie Sargent (12:28):
Oh, I see.
Elyse Rivin (12:29):
That's what they decided to call themselves.
And so they literally put out thatthey were the Apaches of the arts.
I mean, this was, this was their thing.
And he was the center of it.
Annie Sargent (12:39):
Oh, so he had plenty of social life.
Elyse Rivin (12:41):
Yes.
Oh, yes.
He had social life, and apparentlyup until the very end, when he
was too sick to go out, he hada very active night social life.
I mean, he spent his nights going toclubs, to concerts, he was never, it
was basically a guy who was never home,you know, it was one of those, you know.
Annie Sargent (12:58):
That's interesting that it was only socially,
but not a private, Qui sait?
Can you imagine
we don't Oh, oh.
No.
Elyse Rivin (13:08):
But among the people that hung out with him were Stravinsky,
who of course Igor Stravinsky, who isreally, also a major composer, a little
bit younger than him, and Debussy,who's a teeny little bit older, but who,
of course, is the other composer, theother French composer associated with
what is called impressionist music.
Annie Sargent (13:28):
Can you imagine hanging out with Stravinsky, and Debussy, and Ravel?
Oh, amazing.
Elyse Rivin (13:35):
Absolutely amazing, you know.
They were aware of the fact that theywere considered to be impressionists,
they weren't insulted by the term, Imean, for them, even though they had
very rigorous training, of course,you know, in the construction of their
music and everything, the idea camefrom, of course, the painters, the
idea that it was mood, there was a lotof mood in the music and that there
was a certain fluidity in the music.
(13:56):
Which of course, if you listento Debussy, certainly you really
understand right away, you know?
Annie Sargent (14:01):
Right, it's easy to pick out.
Have you ever played a thingcalled the Piano Puzzler?
Elyse Rivin (14:07):
No.
Annie Sargent (14:08):
Okay.
So this is a great thing.
It's an NPR show of sorts where you havea pianist that will play a famous tune
in the style of, he will write a famoustune, rewrite it in the style of somebody.
And you have to guess who thestyle was and what the piece was.
(14:28):
Yes.
And so, we often do this, withmy husband, and Debussy is really
easy to recognize as a composer.
Ravel, not as much.
Elyse Rivin (14:38):
Right.
Not as much.
He's harder to guess because he had abigger kind of palette of moods, you know.
I agree with you.
I mean, I like Debussy, actually, therewas a period where I listened to him a
lot, but it's pretty much all similar.
It's kind of like a Debussy,whatever that is, you know?
A strong signature.
(14:59):
Right.
Annie Sargent (15:00):
He had strong signature.
Let's put it that way.
Elyse Rivin (15:02):
You're absolutely right.
And Ravel, of course, was, I thinkhe, it sounds like he was someone
constantly interested in innovationand trying out new kinds of music and
moving into mixing things together.
And so this group of Apaches, theybasically hung out together and
it started in 1901 and it lasteduntil the beginning of World War I.
(15:24):
So that's a fair amount of time.
I mean, you know, if you think aboutit, it's 13, just about 13 years or so.
And interestingly enough, Ravel, who bythe outbreak of World War I, was not a
youngster anymore, he was 40, 40 goingon 41, he wanted to join up as a soldier.
He was apparently extremely patriotic andhe was refused because of his size, and
(15:45):
because he was considered to be too frail.
And he insisted so much on entering intothe fight, it's kind of hard to imagine
this man who spent his life with musicwanting so badly to go in and fight.
But in order to be part of the war effort,it took him until 1916 and then he was
enrolled as a truck ambulance driver.
Annie Sargent (16:08):
Hmm, interesting.
Elyse Rivin (16:09):
Which of course made him feel like he was participating
somehow in the war effort.
Which he was, except that bythe beginning of 1917, he got
dysentery, and was demobilized.
Annie Sargent (16:22):
Right, sent home.
Elyse Rivin (16:23):
And sent home.
And so that was the endof his military career.
It probably discouraged him a littlebit, but it also probably saved him.
Annie Sargent (16:31):
Right.
It's amazing that somebody in his fortieswho could have easily avoided the draft,
or going to war at all, just wanted to.
And if you imagine somebody who's 45kilos, some really frail guy, saying I
want to go to war, it takes some cojones.
Elyse Rivin (16:50):
It does.
It really does.
This is interesting though, rightafter World War I, now, Ravel is
really well known, I mean, he's afamous composer, and famous pianist.
So the war is over, and he gets into aphilosophical debate with Debussy among
others, because after World War I, Debussydecided that he only wanted to play what
(17:15):
he considered to be patriotic music.
Annie Sargent (17:18):
Right, so there was a problem with German music, obviously.
Elyse Rivin (17:22):
And of course, at the time, many, many of the composers right
through the 19th century and into the20th were in fact Austrian or German.
And, so Ravel and Debussy had afalling out because in spite of
being a part of the war, he believedthat music transcended differences.
Annie Sargent (17:40):
Yeah, that's a tough one.
I, knowing me, I would have a hard timeperforming music from a country that
just tried to beat you out of existence.
Elyse Rivin (17:52):
I have more of an ambivalent attitude as an artist,
I'd say, about all of that.
So I will not say exactly, but Ireally kind of agree with Ravel.
I do, unless somebody really puts outtheir extreme patriotism, you know,
their political positions that are reallyextreme, I really have a tendency to
believe that art should transcend thesekinds of nationalistic kinds of things.
(18:18):
In any event, Ravel encouraged Schoenberg,who was Austrian, and Bartók, who
was Hungarian, because these were,of course, the new next wave of very,
very inventive and very, very moderncomposers with atonal music and things
coming out of really the kind of stuffthat Ravel had, had developed, you know.
Annie Sargent (18:36):
Yes.
So, Bartok is also easy to pick outbecause, you know, he introduced
a whole lot of new types of soundsthat we weren't used to hearing.
Elyse Rivin (18:46):
Yeah, as well, some people still won't want to listen to Bartók, you
have to really like that kind of music.
Annie Sargent (18:51):
I think it's nice.
I, some of it I like, actually.
So, in 1920, this is Mr.
Maurice Ravel.
He is nominated for the Legion of Honor...
Uh huh.
Elyse Rivin (19:01):
And he turns it down.
Annie Sargent (19:02):
Why?
Elyse Rivin (19:03):
He said that he will not take a prize, it's interesting considering that
as a young man, he wanted so desperatelyto have the Prix de Rome, right?
He said that the Legion of Honor wasa government prize, and this is, I've
translated the quote, it says that nogovernment or prince is going to decorate
him because that means they have the rightto judge whether his work is good or not.
Annie Sargent (19:28):
Oh dear, yes, okay.
Elyse Rivin (19:30):
So hoity do do.
So he did not take his Legion of Honor.
He refused it.
Never got it.
Annie Sargent (19:36):
That's a bit much, huh?
Yeah.
Elyse Rivin (19:40):
Very, very proud man, I'd say, you know, I mean, interesting,
this idea, you get that today in thingslike the prizes for painting prizes,
for acting, every once in a while youget somebody who goes, well, you can't
tell me whether it's good or not.
That's, it's a very interestingkind of attitude to have.
I mean, it's kind of...
Annie Sargent (19:57):
Well, it's a fact that in the arts, your
productions are going to be judged.
How do you not?
And whether it's the arts or anythingelse, like if you build houses,
people will have an idea of whetherthey like your houses or not.
And if you're a gardener, do theylike your garden or not, you know.
Elyse Rivin (20:17):
I've known other people, I mean, or I've read about other people in
different forms of the arts, includingarchitecture, who have also refused prizes
for the same exact reason, you know.
It's like, don't tell me whether my workis good or not, but it's a very particular
kind of stance to take, you know.
Annie Sargent (20:32):
I do know that he was very, he was not super prolific as a composer.
So I think he only published about 60pieces his whole life, which is not a lot.
There are composers who, youknow, thousand and then some.
And it's because he would justagonize over every note and he
wanted things to be just right.
So clearly, he had high standards whenit came to his work, but not wanting it
(20:58):
to be, you know, kind of judged or...
Elyse Rivin (21:01):
It's interesting.
It's like he was his own judge andyou would listen to him or not, but
nobody is going to decide wether...
it's interesting position to take right?
Annie Sargent (21:10):
Worth of a prize or not.
Hmm.
Interesting.
Elyse Rivin (21:14):
So that was 1920.
And then in 1928, so 1928, let's see,he is 25, 35, 45, 53, in 1928, he has
his dream wish come true, and he goeson a grand tour of the United States.
In the interim, between 1900 and1920, he already was aware of American
(21:36):
music, and mostly Afro-American music.
He had been able to hear some music thatcame from the States with the people
who would move to France and move toEurope, especially after World War I.
And so he began this enormous,enormous tour of the United States,
both as a pianist, as a composer,and as a conductor of orchestra.
(21:58):
So, he did the Grand Tour, although hedid spend a good deal of time in New
York, and while he was in New York, and Ithink he spent just about the whole year
on this visit to the United States, hespent just about every single night going
to jazz clubs, to ragtime, to listen toragtime music, to jazz music, to blues
music, he spent his nights in Harlem.
(22:20):
And he became very good friendswith someone whose work I love,
and that is George Gershwin.
Annie Sargent (22:24):
Uh huh.
There's a lot of similaritiesbetween the two, as a matter of fact.
Elyse Rivin (22:28):
Right.
And Gershwin, of course, who wasyounger, idolized him apparently.
I saw a few pictures yesterday,I was looking on internet, and
they were a whole group of people,including impresarios and everything.
So they became relatively good friends.
And there's a story who knows ifit's exactly true that at one point
Gershwin said to Ravel that hewanted to study composition with him.
(22:49):
Now, in 1928, I don't know exactly howold Gershwin was, but he was already
making a name for himself as a composer.
And Ravel said no.
And when Gershwin asked why, he said,because if you study composition with me,
you will wind up being a second rate Ravelinstead of being a first rate Gershwin.
Annie Sargent (23:08):
Oh, wow.
That's a very interesting way to put it.
Elyse Rivin (23:11):
I think it's wonderful.
I think it's absolutely wonderful.
Basically, he's saying, you have your ownvoice, you don't need to study with me to
continue it, you know, that kind of thing.
Which I think is just agreat quote, you know?
Annie Sargent (23:22):
It's very nice.
Elyse Rivin (23:25):
So he returns to Paris, and at that moment, at the very, very
end of 1928, he's commissioned towrite a piece of music for a ballet
by one of his friends, a Russianballet dancer named Ida Rubinstein.
I don't know that much about her, butshe was actually the person who made
the demand on Ravel to write a piece forher, for a ballet she wanted to perform.
Annie Sargent (23:50):
So she commissioned a piece.
Elyse Rivin (23:51):
She commissioned a piece.
And between July and October of 1928,he worked on a piece of music that
is now considered to be the mostplayed piece of music in the world.
And that is Bolero.
Annie Sargent (24:04):
Right.
I think Bolero and FourSeasons are probably the most
played music in the world.
Elyse Rivin (24:09):
It's a piece of music that lasts 17 minutes.
It is based on an Andalusian themethat he remembered from his childhood.
I don't know much about musicalterms, but it says that there's a
ritournelle in it, which obviouslyis the way of, I suppose, repetition.
Annie Sargent (24:27):
Right, it's a returning pattern.
It's a returning pattern andthere's just two themes to it.
And of course it's the same notes over,and over, and over again at different
rhythms, you know, as fast and slow.
And then it ends in a crescendo.
And also he adds instruments.
So different instruments take the melodyand they sound quite different, you know?
(24:48):
So it adds to the interest andyou have this drum the whole time.
Elyse Rivin (24:55):
It's, hypnotic.
Annie Sargent (24:56):
Yes, it is.
Elyse Rivin (24:57):
Absolutely hypnotic.
The premiere of Ballero was on the22nd of November at the Opera Garnier.
Apparently, it was a packed house.
And most of the people apparently did notknow what to make of this piece of music.
There were a few people who saidhe was out of his mind, but I
don't know if at the time peopleactually walked out or not, you know.
Annie Sargent (25:20):
I don't think so.
Elyse Rivin (25:20):
I don't think so, but some people actually wrote afterwards
and said (25:23):
What was he doing?
What was he thinking?
But for most of the people there,they thought it was fabulous and it
was an enormous and huge success.
It was very controversialas a piece of music.
It was not like anything anybodyhad ever performed before.
And the irony, of course, is thatin the end, at the end of his
career, he really did not considerit to be the most important piece
(25:45):
of music that he had written.
But it is the piece of music thathe is absolutely the most known for.
Annie Sargent (25:52):
Well, that's the thing, he wrote so much, like he wrote a lot
of piano concertos, he wrote things forsolo pianists, that are just beautiful.
And yet he's known for the mostapproachable piece that he ever
wrote, which I happen to like.
Yeah, so it's just a personal choice.
(26:13):
I think it's a beautiful ballet.
I've seen some beautiful dancing to it.
Elyse Rivin (26:17):
I actually had a chance a number of years ago, this is a while ago,
thanks to my sister, one of my sisters,my sister Lucille, who was living in
Paris, and she got tickets for us tosee the Béjart performance of Bolero.
And we were in the second row and I willnever ever forget that night ever ever.
(26:38):
We got the sweat on us,you know, it was fabulous.
It is so hypnotic and so it puts you intoa trance as a piece of music you know, I
mean it really is just seeing these bodiesswaying back and forth and everything.
It's fabulous.
But I think I can see why some peoplereally, really would not like it.
(26:58):
But the irony of course, is that itbecame an absolute international success.
And they say, you know, who knows ifit's true, that an example of Bolero
is played every 10 minutes somewhere inthe world, and considering that it lasts
17 minutes, this is good, this is goodfor chat to figure out if this is true
or not, that basically it means thatthere's never a moment when Bolero is
(27:19):
not being played somewhere in the world.
Annie Sargent (27:22):
Oh, I'm sure that's true.
I'm sure that's true.
And also, they've made so manydifferent versions of it, like with all
sorts, like some of them sound awful.
It's like some Casio from thesixties sound, it's awful.
And then some of themsound really, really good.
So it just depends on who's performing it.
Elyse Rivin (27:40):
It definitely does.
He also did very interestingly, he wrotetwo piano concertos for a left hand.
And it's because he had a friend wholost his right hand in the war in
World War I, he was a pianist, heasked him to write music for him that
he could play just with his left hand.
Annie Sargent (27:59):
It's the Concerto for Left Hand, is what it's called.
I don't
Elyse Rivin (28:01):
know if I've ever heard it.
Annie Sargent (28:02):
I've heard some of it.
It's part of the things I waslistening to this morning.
I wouldn't say it's my favoriteof his, but it's very interesting.
And it's wonderful that he tookthe challenge to write a piece
mostly for a one-handed pianist.
I mean, that is just not something youdo, you know, and as someone who was
as famous as he was, he could have justturned it down, you know, but he did it.
Elyse Rivin (28:25):
He did it.
Yeah, I guess he was one of thosepeople, it sounds like he loved
the challenge, no matter what.
I mean, this was basically, he consideredthat all music was interesting,
and he was trying most of his lifeto figure out how to incorporate
different rhythms, different patternsof music into his own compositions.
And so basically that is what he did, heperformed and composed for over 40 years.
(28:50):
He eventually bought a house in thesuburbs, about 30 kilometers outside of
Paris, in a town called Monfort l’Amaury.
But he still went to Paris all thetime to go to the nightclubs, to
see live music, to hang out withhis friends, to see the dancers.
His life was the nightlife of Paris.
And in 1933, he got hit by a car.
(29:14):
And what happened was, and this isone of those ironies, but it's not
just with him that they discoveredwhen they took him to the hospital,
that he was having, he actually hadan incurable neurological problem.
They didn't put any name on it, I'venever found anything that said what it
was, but apparently it kind of got setoff by it or got worse because of getting
(29:34):
hit in the head in this car accident.
And he had to stop.
He stopped composing.
And he stopped playing becauseit probably affected his hands
as well, his mental capacities.
And he died in 1937 just a day ortwo after having had a surgery to
see if they could actually repairsomething to make him feel better.
(29:54):
So he was not an old man.
He was only 62 when he died.
Annie Sargent (29:58):
Wow.
It's impressive to me that because,I mean, there are a lot of composers
who wrote a lot of things becausethey felt compelled to, you know,
they had ideas every five seconds.
But composing music is very difficult.
My father in law is a composerand has been commissioned to
write many pieces and so forth.
And it's not an easy process.
(30:19):
It is really a lot of work is involvedbecause they need to make sure that
all the instruments can perform this,they show off what the instrument
can do is, is what they're tryingto do, whatever the theme of the
music or the tune of the music is.
It's a lot of work and finding inspirationfor new music is, it's not easy.
(30:39):
it's like everything has beenwritten already, it seems.
Elyse Rivin (30:43):
Well, yeah, I mean, again equating it to the equivalent
in painting, for instance, it'sexactly, you could say the same thing.
You have to figure out howto make something new that
hasn't been done before.
I mean, that's what's so amazing about it.
When Ravel died, there was already, youknow, the much more into the atonal music
and other kinds of music that come up.
(31:03):
Of course, there's been a lotof music that's was created
through the 20th century.
But really, he is considered to beone of the two greatest innovators
of modern music, introducing thingsthat become part of what is known
as modern music, and that was whathe basically dedicated his life to.
Annie Sargent (31:21):
Yeah, and it's really interesting because his music,
it's like it's in constant motion.
It flows kind of like water,you know, it just never stops.
And I think it's really good to listento when you're trying to work and
concentrate on what you're doing, becauseit's always a satisfying pattern and
(31:41):
your brain likes to have a satisfyingpattern to hang on to while your hands
are typing or doing something else.
I really like to listen to some of hispieces while working, not while sleeping.
Because another thing he did is, hetook very well known tunes, but well
known to like the South of Spain orwell known to some African group or
(32:05):
something, and he would speed them upand make that the theme of his music.
So he had a lot of purposeful researchinto finding new melodies, you know?
It was still melodic kind of work,whereas the people that followed
him threw the melody out of the doorand you were like, kicked it to the
(32:25):
curb, and we're like, it doesn't haveto be melodic at all, which, hmm...
maybe not, maybe it does.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really interesting to me thathis music has lived on despite the
fact that, you know, I think somebodyasked him about the Bolero and he said,
yeah, it's the best piece I've everwritten, except there's no music in it.
(32:45):
And what he meant is...
Elyse Rivin (32:46):
It's there to put you into a trance, I think.
Annie Sargent (32:48):
Yeah, but there is plenty of music in it.
And I think it's the introduction to alot of people to classical music, to,
you know, not pop, not easy listen stuff,just like you, I remember vividly watching
Bolero and Béjart, not in person, on TV.
Man, that was just,that was a performance.
(33:11):
That was like, it's notsomething you forget.
You know, so it's well deserved thathe sticks out in people's minds.
I get it.
I think he's a genius.
And he wrote some pieces that were abit edgy as well, he was at the, kind
of, at the cusp of big change, buthe's most famous for a Bolero that is
not all that challenging, you know.
Elyse Rivin (33:33):
It's just fascinating, you know, that he started out really coming
out of the tradition of a much moretraditional romantic kind of classical
music, and then worked his way intothe absolute announcement of modern,
and contemporary, and experimentation.
I find him more interesting to listento, for instance, than Debussy,
who bores me after 10, 15 minutes.
(33:55):
Yeah, I kind of, Debussy is finefor putting me to sleep, you know.
But I was going to, I just listened toyou thinking, for me, the comparison
in a strange way is with Mozart,and for instance, the Magic Flute,
there's something about certainpieces of music that stay with
you forever, and ever, and ever.
Annie Sargent (34:14):
Right, so Mozart was 150 years earlier than Ravel, but it is true
that they both adhered to the same kindof principles and rules of composition.
It's just that Ravel introducedtunes from other cultures, other
places which Mozart didn't.
(34:36):
And that's where, you know, Raveland Gershwin are so close because
they are both very very well trainedcomposers who can write fabulous
work but are very influenced by jazz.
Elyse Rivin (34:50):
Right.
Annie Sargent (34:50):
That makes them really interesting to listen to, you know?
Yeah.
But when you have time, like whenyou're, when you want to listen to
music, what do you turn on Elyse?
Elyse Rivin (35:00):
In the car, I listen to a station called FIP.
Annie Sargent (35:02):
Yeah, so that's...
Elyse Rivin (35:03):
France Inter Paris.
One of the things that's interestingabout it is that it's all music.
I don't like talk radio at all.
I just have this thing, I hate talk radio.
Annie Sargent (35:12):
Here's a podcaster who doesn't like to talk.
Elyse Rivin (35:14):
I love listening to music in the car, and one of the things
I found out about the station isthat from the beginning they decided
that they only wanted women as...
it's not DJs and announcers.
Yeah, so they, for a specific reasonwhen it began this, I don't know...
Annie Sargent (35:29):
...soft voices, very smooth.
Elyse Rivin (35:31):
And so you have different people, I never know who they are,
I never pay attention, but likeevery couple of hours they change.
So I know that there are differenttimes of the day when it's either
American stuff like blues and oldrock, or it can be classical, or
it can be this, or it can be that.
And so I love the fact that I don't knowwhat I'm going to be listening to, when I
(35:53):
put on the radio, but it's always music.
The reason why I don't likelistening to talk in the car
is because I get distracted.
See, so the music is kind of like,if I don't have the music on the
car, I think there's somethingwrong, what's going on in the car?
You know.
Oh, did I leave the door open?
Something is weird, you know?
But that's what I listen to.
And at home I listen a lot, whenI'm not using a disc, I have a lot
(36:17):
of music, but I don't always putthe music on, I listen to France
Musique at certain times of the day.
And that is, I like too, becauseI do interviews with singers, and
composers, and musicians, and Ilike listening to them talk about
their art, their music, you know?
Yeah, so you do like talks, sometimes?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just not in the car.
It's like, ooh, I don't knowif I'm going left or right,
(36:37):
if I'm in the car, you know.
Annie Sargent (36:39):
That's funny, because I can listen to anything in the car.
Elyse Rivin (36:42):
I know, but no, at home I can, at home I do, and I will sit
and listen to an interview with acomposer or a musician that I find it
fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
Annie Sargent (36:51):
And very often what I do is like, if I'm watching a movie, or
something, and they play something that'sinteresting, or France Culture, France...
What's the name of that station?
Elyse Rivin (37:03):
France Musique, France Classique, et France Culture.
Annie Sargent (37:06):
Yeah, anyway, I'm not sure we got the names perfectly right, but
they often play things, like I listento Franck Ferrand, I really like Franck
Ferrand as a historian, and in betweenhis historical stuff, he will play part
of a symphony or a concerto or something.
And very often, I just pause the thingand I start listening to the whole thing.
(37:26):
Yeah, and then I'm, perhaps I goback to whatever he was talking
to, whatever person he was talkingabout, but perhaps I don't.
So that's often how I work, I oftenuse Shazam to see what they're playing,
like in the movies, and sometimes itis classical, not always, you know.
And then I listen to the whole thing.
I like to listen to the whole album.
Like recently I was listening to someonewho talked about Tracy Chapman, and I
(37:48):
listened to the whole Revolution album.
It is fascinating tolisten to that whole thing.
Of course, doesn't much to do withRavel, but equally inventive, I think.
Very, very out there as a person.
So I just like to hear the whole thing.
When I start with a musician, Ijust like to listen to a lot of it.
Elyse Rivin (38:08):
I think I'm going to go home and listen to some Ravel.
Annie Sargent (38:11):
But when I walk the dog, I don't know, classical
music for walking, it's...
Elyse Rivin (38:15):
No, no, you need something a little bit more...
Annie Sargent (38:17):
I'm pretty sure there's lots of people who listen to
classical music while walking, too.
Elyse Rivin (38:22):
We'll find out.
Annie Sargent (38:23):
Perhaps they will tell us,
Tell
Elyse Rivin (38:24):
us, what do you listen to, and when?
Annie Sargent (38:27):
Well, yeah.
What do you listen to whenyou're driving, walking, and not
listening to this podcast, clearly?
Merci beaucoup, Élyse.
Elyse Rivin (38:35):
De rien, Annie.
Au revoir.
Au revoir.
Annie Sargent (38:44):
Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving
back and supporting the show.
Patreon supporters get new episodes assoon as they are ready, and ads free.
If that sounds good to you, be likethem, follow the link in the show notes!
Patrons also get more exclusiverewards for doing that, you can
see them at patreon.com/joinus.
(39:08):
And a shout out this week tonew patrons, Karen Lewis, Nat,
Christopher Pace and Beatrice.
Thank you all, and to all my currentpatrons, it is wonderful to have
you on board with the community offrancophiles who keep this podcast going.
And to support Elyse, goto patreon.com/Elysart.
(39:33):
This week I publisheda reward for patrons.
It was a casual convo between Elyseand I, where we talked about all
sorts of things, and these areunscripted, just casual conversations.
And I also had a Zoommeeting with my patrons.
It's always great talkingto all of you face to face.
I want to read two reviews ofmy VoiceMap tours this week.
One person said (39:54):
"I did it in the afternoon on my own, and again,
at night with my husband whenwe got out of his conference".
Great, wow.
Yes, doing it twice.
Lots of people report that theyenjoy doing them twice because they
are kind of very dense, some ofthem especially, and very fun, so.
Another person wrote (40:11):
"Absolutely perfect method to enjoy Paris at your own
pace, the combination of knowledge andtechnology delivers a great experience.
This was our fourth visit toParis, but the first experience
with Annie's wonderful guidance.
Great pace.
Love the brief.
But so informativevignettes along the way.
(40:32):
We shared earbuds andalmost stayed together.
Stopped many times alongthe way to shop and eat.
Looking forward to the nextfour tours we purchased".
Thank you very much for those reviews.
Yes, I think people really enjoy those.
And podcast listeners get a big discountfor buying these tours from my website.
(40:54):
You can see this atjoinusinfrance.com/boutique.
There's also a new review of my newtour called "Savoring Paris, a Food
Lover's Walk Around Les Halles".
This person said (41:04):
"Annie Sargent's walking tours are excellent with
clear descriptions, great historyand anecdotes and practical tips.
I've been to Paris several times andalways learn something new on her tours.
They enhance any trip to Paris".
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Now, let me share a few thoughtsabout taking the train in France.
(41:26):
Of course, traveling by train in Franceoffers a splendid window into the
heart of French culture and landscape.
It blends efficiency with the pleasureof unhurried movement through the
countryside, and cities as well.
But for those unaccustomed to traintravel, which is a lot of my listeners,
as a matter of fact, especiallyif you're from a country where the
(41:48):
railway system does not form thebackbone of public transportation,
here are some reflections andpractical tips to enhance your journey.
And if you want more details, youshould definitely listen to episode 428
'All Aboard the French Train System'.
All right, here's a few tips.
French trains are typically punctual.
(42:10):
But of course, there are,you know, exceptions.
But you need to be on time.
Trains wait for no one.
The doors close minutes before departure.
So check train schedules in advance andaim to arrive at the station at least
30 minutes before your train departs.
This buffer lets you navigate thestation, validate your ticket if
(42:34):
necessary, and find the correctplatform without too much stress.
Your train platform is not goingto be announced until 20 minutes
before it's time to leave.
Just be aware of that andyou should really check the
train number on your ticket.
It says it gives you a train number.
Check that against whatyou see on the displays.
(42:55):
You have to understandthe French ticket systems.
Tickets can be purchased online,through apps, at station kiosks, they
can be paper, they can be on your app.
I really recommend that you just buyyour ticket from either the website or
the app, and that you have your traincode, your QR code, on your phone.
(43:19):
Okay.
This is the easiest way.
That way you don't have to worryabout, do I need to validate
this ticket or whatever.
You know, it's a codeand you're good to go.
You have to learn a little bitabout navigating the stations.
Train stations are hubs of activity,but they are well organized.
The information screens display departureand arrival times, just like an airport.
(43:43):
The platform, which we say 'voie', thenumbers are crucial for boarding the train
at the right place, like I mentioned.
If you're not sure, ask stationstaff, they usually have red jackets
or fellow passengers for help.
Knowing basic French,you know, helps as well.
(44:04):
Depending on where youare, it's not mandatory.
You have to select the right seat.
If your ticket includes a reservedseat, you have to find that one
because, so you have to find theright car, the right carriage, I
guess, and also the right seat number.
The trains are long, carriages areusually labeled both inside and outside.
(44:26):
There's a big number one or numbertwo on the side of the train.
That's the class of the train.
To find the car number, that's ona small little screen on the side.
And that will say, you know,car number blah, blah, blah.
And it will show you where theseats are, if they're upstairs
(44:48):
or downstairs for the TGV.
Luggage, unlike air travel, they don'ttake your luggage away and give it back
at the end of the trip, but there areracks just like you'll find on a shuttle
bus, like the shuttle bus that takes youto the airport, there are racks where
everybody puts their luggage, right?
(45:09):
Well, it's the same on the train,you will put your luggage there.
Typically, I recommend that you keepyour valuables with you in your purse
or on a smaller backpack or carryonthat you can have with you at all times.
So you'll put your big piece ofluggage on the racks, you can
lock them up if you want to.
(45:29):
I don't find that necessary.
I'm not aware of theft onthe train being a big deal.
Perhaps it was yearsago, but it's not today.
So, just relax, okay?
But do keep your valuables withyou on your person, obviously.
And once you find your seat, you willhave a little space to put some luggage
in front of you and also above your headfor mostly coats and things like that.
(45:52):
And then you just needto enjoy the ride, okay?
It's very scenic.
Just relax, have a good time.
You can read, depending on the seatyou booked, you may have a plug.
Or not, some places don't.
Sometimes there's food on thetrain, sometimes there's not.
Even if there is food on thetrain, I don't like the food on
the train, so I bring my own.
(46:13):
Just relax, you'll get there soon enough.
And they'll make announcements in Frenchbut there are also kind of signs inside,
like screens inside of the train.
And if you have your ticket onthe app, you can follow your
own train on the app as well.
So, extra points for the apps.
If you purchase your tickets on the app,that's where you will find information
(46:36):
about possible delays, possiblestrikes, which again, strikes do happen.
Strikes get announced all the time.
Most of the time, the strikedoesn't go forward, so don't panic.
Wait until the day before, 24 hoursbefore a strike, they need to say
if they're really doing it or not.
(46:58):
And I know it's hard to waitthat long, but you just have to.
If there is a strike, if your trainis canceled, they never cancel all
the trains, so it might delay youa little bit, but it's not going
to ruin your trip unless you bookedyour days like you're a lunatic.
And if you listen to me,you probably don't do that.
(47:19):
And also just so you know, thetrain is the most ecological way
to travel, it's even better than anelectric car, if you can believe that.
So enjoy the trains in France, be awarethat they don't go everywhere, that it's
not the fast train that goes everywhere.
Oh, and yes, this week, somebody,she had read on the fine print that
(47:42):
she could, for a 19 Euro fee, shecould change her departure city.
Well, yes, you can, but that's onlyif you want to depart from a city
that's on that same line, okay?
You cannot change departure cityto a completely different line.
(48:02):
If you need to do that, geta refund on that first ticket
and get a different one, okay?
Which you can do with some, it's just likeairlines, sometimes you can get a refund
on your ticket, sometimes you cannot.
Read the fine print.
My thanks to podcast editorsAnne and Cristian Cotovan
who produced the transcripts.
(48:22):
Next week on the podcast, atrip report with Joseph O'Reilly
about the two faces of Provence.
It was a fun recording.
I think you'll enjoy it, especiallyif you're going to Provence, or if
you have a thing for Provence, and whodoesn't, you have to listen to that one.
And remember patrons get an adfree version of this episode.
(48:42):
Click on the link in theshow notes to be like them.
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time so
we can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent andCopyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance.
(49:02):
It is released under a CreativeCommons, attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.
This is Join Us in France, episode 491,
quatre cent quatre-vingt-onze.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent, and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a conversation withElyse Rivin of Toulouse Guided Walks about
(00:36):
the life and legacy of Maurice Ravel,one of France's most esteemed composers,
whose works continue to enchant andinspire music lovers around the globe.
For anyone with a passion for Frenchculture and music, understanding
Ravel's contributions is not justa pleasure, it's a necessity.
His compositions, including the everpopular Bolero and the intricate
(01:00):
Piano Concerto in G Major, showcasea unique blend of musical innovation,
technical skill, and a deep infusionof the cultural motifs that make
French music distinctly enchanting.
For francophiles, Ravel's music is agateway to understanding the broader
cultural movements of early 20th centuryFrance, reflecting the artistic literacy
(01:25):
and social currents of his time.
Stay tuned as we celebrate the richmusical heritage of Maurice Ravel and
discover why his legacy is essentialfor anyone who loves France and its
artistic contributions to the world.
This podcast is supported by donors andlisteners who buy my tours and services,
including my Itinerary Consult Service,my GPS self-guided tours of Paris on the
(01:50):
VoiceMap app, or take a day trip with mearound the Southwest in my electric car.
Only the Southwest though.
Somebody asked me this week, ifI could do this in Marseille and
Paris, no, only the Southwest, okay?
You can browse all of that on myboutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
Patreon supporters get new episodes assoon as they are ready, and ads free.
(02:15):
If that sounds good to you, be likethem, follow the link in the show notes.
For the magazine part of thepodcast, after my chat with Elyse
today, I'll share a few thoughtsabout taking the train in France.
There's been a lot of conversationabout that on the Facebook group for the
podcast and also on my itinerary calls.
(02:43):
Bonjour Elyse!
Elyse Rivin (02:44):
Bonjour, Annie.
Annie Sargent (02:45):
We have a composer with us today.
Elyse Rivin (02:48):
The first first time, I think.
Annie Sargent (02:50):
Yes, it is our first time talking about a composer as far as I know.
Elyse Rivin (02:54):
I belive so.
We've talked about writers, and we'vetalked about painters and famous people
in history, but I don't think we've evertalked about anybody who wrote music.
Annie Sargent (03:05):
Yes, and this one is easy to listen to, which is wonderful.
I will let you take it away, Idon't know that much about him.
I, so this morning I got up and I knewwe were going to record about Ravel.
So Maurice Ravel, you know,1875 is when he was born.
And so this is the end ofthe Romantic kind of period.
(03:28):
He's pretty much, really easy tolisten to, I'm sure all of you have
heard some of his music, even ifyou're not into classical music.
And so this morning when I gotup, I started listening to Ravel
and I've been listening to Ravelall morning and it's lovely stuff.
Elyse Rivin (03:40):
Lovely stuff.
It really is lovely stuff.
Yes.
It is very interesting too, I was thinkingas I was doing some research and making
some show notes, we've talked a lotabout painters and artists and writers.
This is also someone who showeda great gift for music, in this
case music, at an early age.
It's like there's a wholecollection of these people who
(04:01):
were talented from the beginning.
Annie Sargent (04:03):
Well, I think one of the important things in life is to
recognize what your kids are good at andthen encourage them in that direction.
And some people do thatwell, and some people don't.
Elyse Rivin (04:15):
That is very true.
So, Maurice Ravel he was bornactually in the Basque country.
He was born in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
But as a baby, a little baby, his familymoved to Paris and that is where he
basically, he grew up and that is whereit really he lived for most of his life.
And interestingly enough, his parents whowere not artists, but were very interested
(04:39):
in the arts, were interested in music,had friends who were in the arts, were
apparently very, very cultivated people,very modern for the time that he was
born 1875, which is really when, thinkabout it, that in 1874 was the first
time the word impressionism was used,was one year before his birth, right?
(05:00):
Then that was of course inrelation to the painting by Monet.
And so the last quarter of the19th century is a period of great
change and a lot of creativityand invention in all the arts.
Annie Sargent (05:13):
Right, right.
Elyse Rivin (05:14):
And particularly painting and music too.
And of course, someone who was,who became an associate, but was
a little bit older was Debussy.
Annie Sargent (05:22):
Sure.
Elyse Rivin (05:23):
And eventually, someone I know you love a lot, Gabriel Fauré, who
a little bit later on in the story ofRavel was actually one of his teachers.
Annie Sargent (05:32):
Right.
Yes.
Fauré, if you don't know themusic of Gabriel Fauré, do
yourself a favor and listen to it.
It's absolutely wonderful.
Elyse Rivin (05:40):
It's what Annie loves, Annie loves it.
So Maurice was basically brought upin this very encouraging atmosphere,
if you want to call it that.
And his mom, even though apparentlyshe didn't have any Spanish
ancestors, loved Spanish music andplayed Spanish music in the house.
And he grew up listening to Spanishmelodies a lot, melodies from Andalusia,
(06:02):
connected to, I suppose, I can hear themin my head, you know, basically, all
of those strange rhythms and melodiesthat come from the South of Spain.
And he was interested in all of thesekinds of musics that were not part
of the classical tradition in France.
And so his parents allowed him to starthaving piano lessons at the age of six.
Annie Sargent (06:23):
It's a very good time to
Elyse Rivin (06:24):
start.
It's a very good time to start.
He apparently wanted them.
He was really happy to have them.
And at the age of 12, he began hisfirst classes in musical composition.
This is already very impressive asfar as I'm concerned, because as much
as I have spent years in the visualarts, music is a mystery to me.
(06:44):
I love it, but I can't produce a noteon key and the idea that people can, and
that they can write music, to me it'sjust like a miracle of the gods, you know?
I mean, this is just...
it's wonderful, you know.
So at the age of 12 he begancomposition, and two years later in
1889, he entered the conservatory.
Annie Sargent (07:03):
Yes, which is normal.
I mean, in France, if you are goodat music and if you're, you know,
motivated to learn music, the normalcourse is to enter the conservatory.
And they do normal school, so they willdo their French, Math, History, all of
that, but they also do a lot of music.
Elyse Rivin (07:21):
And it's very interesting because he did stay in the conservatory,
actually for several years, butapparently, he, I don't know if he
wrote it down or it was simply thathe's told his parents and people
around him, he found it a littlebit discouraging because he thought
it was too conservative, basically.
He was interested even at anearly age in experimentation.
(07:43):
And obviously you have to have the base,you have to have the base for composition.
You have to have the base for differentways of putting music together.
But he was at odds with a lot of whatwas going on in the conservatory.
And at one point he left, and he actuallywent and studied with Gabriel Fauré,
who was at the time considered to bethe greatest living French composer.
Annie Sargent (08:04):
They were right.
Elyse Rivin (08:05):
They were right.
And interestingly enough, Fauréfound Ravel to be very interesting
because of his new ideas.
It must have been interesting for Fauré,I don't know anything really about
him, but to have a student who wasinventive, I mean, I can imagine it, I
transpose it into the visual arts andI can just say, yes, that's wonderful.
(08:25):
You have somebody who has an ideathat they want to do something.
It's not just copying otherpeople, that kind of thing.
Annie Sargent (08:31):
Which, I mean, but it's okay if a young student starts
by copying other people, right?
Right.
But then you have to sort of break out.
Somewhere you have to doyour own thing, you know.
You have to find your own voice.
That's the right term forit, to find your own voice.
And so apparently, Ravel, because of this,because of this attitude that was a little
bit off from what was considered to beeven mainstream at the time, he was very,
(08:55):
very frustrated because four times hepresented himself as a candidate for the
Prix de Rome, which is the prize, whichis a prize, I believe it's in painting,
and it's in writing, and it's in music.
The Prix de Rome.
And four times he came in second.
Oh.
Elyse Rivin (09:11):
He never won it.
Strangely enough, he was never the top,he was never considered the top, but...
but, by the time he was in hisearly twenties, he was starting to
become well known for his music.
Annie Sargent (09:22):
Wow, that's impressive.
Elyse Rivin (09:24):
And he was known both as a composer and as a pianist.
He was a magnificent pianist.
I don't know, since he died in 1937, theremust be some recordings of him playing.
I don't know if there are.
Annie Sargent (09:36):
Probably, yeah.
Elyse Rivin (09:38):
Some very early scratchy, you know, phonograph ones, it
would be interesting to find one.
He wound up having a group of peoplewho basically gravitated around him
in Paris because he was an odd fellow.
I mean, he was, if you see pictures ofhim, he was rather interesting looking.
He kind of reminds me ofa little bit of a ferret.
You know, he was very small,he was only 5.3, which means
(10:00):
he was, really not big at all.
My height.
Well, you and I.
You think you're five feet, I don'tthink, I think you're taller than
that, but he weighed 48 kilos.
You and I together, if we tookoff, you know, one arm would weigh
48 kilos, you know, it's like...
Annie Sargent (10:14):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm beyond that.
Elyse Rivin (10:16):
I mean, he was really small, and he, apparently his
entire life was just his music.
He was never in his entire life known tohave any romantic relationships, men or
women, nothing, his life, yeah, nothing.
There's no scuttlebutt, there's no gossip.
There's some suggestion thatmaybe he had some tendencies,
(10:36):
but he never acted on them.
Basically, he was really so devoted to hismusic and that was the center of his life.
So, I read a whole bunch ofdifferent articles and they
said, no, no, nobody knows of anyparticular romantic connection.
Annie Sargent (10:48):
Now, when you said tendencies, you mean
perhaps he preferred males?
Elyse Rivin (10:51):
Perhaps he preferred men and didn't want to act on it.
I mean, it's not clear becausecertainly he was gravitating in a world
where it was perfectly acceptable.
The end of the 19th century,beginning of 20th century, the
bohemian life of Paris was not alife where you had to be correct.
I mean, if you think about whatpeople like Picasso and all of
his painter friends did, I mean,they did just about everything.
(11:13):
I mean, you know, we're talkingabout sleeping with anybody
you want to, taking drugs.
I mean, it was very, very,very free and bohemian.
Annie Sargent (11:21):
Right.
but at the same time, people werepunished for homosexuality in France.
Perhaps he didn't feel asfree as, you know, yeah.
Elyse Rivin (11:31):
In any event, it apparently there was never really a
lot of gossip about him in that way.
So it's kind of becamethe mystery of his life.
Was it just music?
Or was he timid?
Was, you know, what the reasons were?
In any event, he wound up havingthis enormous group of musicians,
composers, and artists around him.
And they called themselves the Apaches.
Annie Sargent (11:52):
Oh, why?
Elyse Rivin (11:54):
Well, the term Apache, which of course in French would be
apache, which was of course taken fromhaving seen Wild Bill, what's his name?
The Buffalo Bill.
You know, he came through Paris andFrance doing his show with bringing,
you know, Native Americans with him.
The term of course got picked up by theFrench and it was used to describe the bad
(12:15):
kids, like delinquents in neighborhoods.
That was the original.
Annie Sargent (12:18):
Yes.
That's what I know the term as.
Elyse Rivin (12:21):
So apparently, because these were the bad,
bad boys and girls of the arts.
Annie Sargent (12:28):
Oh, I see.
Elyse Rivin (12:29):
That's what they decided to call themselves.
And so they literally put out thatthey were the Apaches of the arts.
I mean, this was, this was their thing.
And he was the center of it.
Annie Sargent (12:39):
Oh, so he had plenty of social life.
Elyse Rivin (12:41):
Yes.
Oh, yes.
He had social life, and apparentlyup until the very end, when he
was too sick to go out, he hada very active night social life.
I mean, he spent his nights going toclubs, to concerts, he was never, it
was basically a guy who was never home,you know, it was one of those, you know.
Annie Sargent (12:58):
That's interesting that it was only socially,
but not a private, Qui sait?
Can you imagine
we don't Oh, oh.
No.
Elyse Rivin (13:08):
But among the people that hung out with him were Stravinsky,
who of course Igor Stravinsky, who isreally, also a major composer, a little
bit younger than him, and Debussy,who's a teeny little bit older, but who,
of course, is the other composer, theother French composer associated with
what is called impressionist music.
Annie Sargent (13:28):
Can you imagine hanging out with Stravinsky, and Debussy, and Ravel?
Oh, amazing.
Elyse Rivin (13:35):
Absolutely amazing, you know.
They were aware of the fact that theywere considered to be impressionists,
they weren't insulted by the term, Imean, for them, even though they had
very rigorous training, of course,you know, in the construction of their
music and everything, the idea camefrom, of course, the painters, the
idea that it was mood, there was a lotof mood in the music and that there
was a certain fluidity in the music.
(13:56):
Which of course, if you listento Debussy, certainly you really
understand right away, you know?
Annie Sargent (14:01):
Right, it's easy to pick out.
Have you ever played a thingcalled the Piano Puzzler?
Elyse Rivin (14:07):
No.
Annie Sargent (14:08):
Okay.
So this is a great thing.
It's an NPR show of sorts where you havea pianist that will play a famous tune
in the style of, he will write a famoustune, rewrite it in the style of somebody.
And you have to guess who thestyle was and what the piece was.
(14:28):
Yes.
And so, we often do this, withmy husband, and Debussy is really
easy to recognize as a composer.
Ravel, not as much.
Elyse Rivin (14:38):
Right.
Not as much.
He's harder to guess because he had abigger kind of palette of moods, you know.
I agree with you.
I mean, I like Debussy, actually, therewas a period where I listened to him a
lot, but it's pretty much all similar.
It's kind of like a Debussy,whatever that is, you know?
A strong signature.
(14:59):
Right.
Annie Sargent (15:00):
He had strong signature.
Let's put it that way.
Elyse Rivin (15:02):
You're absolutely right.
And Ravel, of course, was, I thinkhe, it sounds like he was someone
constantly interested in innovationand trying out new kinds of music and
moving into mixing things together.
And so this group of Apaches, theybasically hung out together and
it started in 1901 and it lasteduntil the beginning of World War I.
(15:24):
So that's a fair amount of time.
I mean, you know, if you think aboutit, it's 13, just about 13 years or so.
And interestingly enough, Ravel, who bythe outbreak of World War I, was not a
youngster anymore, he was 40, 40 goingon 41, he wanted to join up as a soldier.
He was apparently extremely patriotic andhe was refused because of his size, and
(15:45):
because he was considered to be too frail.
And he insisted so much on entering intothe fight, it's kind of hard to imagine
this man who spent his life with musicwanting so badly to go in and fight.
But in order to be part of the war effort,it took him until 1916 and then he was
enrolled as a truck ambulance driver.
Annie Sargent (16:08):
Hmm, interesting.
Elyse Rivin (16:09):
Which of course made him feel like he was participating
somehow in the war effort.
Which he was, except that bythe beginning of 1917, he got
dysentery, and was demobilized.
Annie Sargent (16:22):
Right, sent home.
Elyse Rivin (16:23):
And sent home.
And so that was the endof his military career.
It probably discouraged him a littlebit, but it also probably saved him.
Annie Sargent (16:31):
Right.
It's amazing that somebody in his fortieswho could have easily avoided the draft,
or going to war at all, just wanted to.
And if you imagine somebody who's 45kilos, some really frail guy, saying I
want to go to war, it takes some cojones.
Elyse Rivin (16:50):
It does.
It really does.
This is interesting though, rightafter World War I, now, Ravel is
really well known, I mean, he's afamous composer, and famous pianist.
So the war is over, and he gets into aphilosophical debate with Debussy among
others, because after World War I, Debussydecided that he only wanted to play what
(17:15):
he considered to be patriotic music.
Annie Sargent (17:18):
Right, so there was a problem with German music, obviously.
Elyse Rivin (17:22):
And of course, at the time, many, many of the composers right
through the 19th century and into the20th were in fact Austrian or German.
And, so Ravel and Debussy had afalling out because in spite of
being a part of the war, he believedthat music transcended differences.
Annie Sargent (17:40):
Yeah, that's a tough one.
I, knowing me, I would have a hard timeperforming music from a country that
just tried to beat you out of existence.
Elyse Rivin (17:52):
I have more of an ambivalent attitude as an artist,
I'd say, about all of that.
So I will not say exactly, but Ireally kind of agree with Ravel.
I do, unless somebody really puts outtheir extreme patriotism, you know,
their political positions that are reallyextreme, I really have a tendency to
believe that art should transcend thesekinds of nationalistic kinds of things.
(18:18):
In any event, Ravel encouraged Schoenberg,who was Austrian, and Bartók, who
was Hungarian, because these were,of course, the new next wave of very,
very inventive and very, very moderncomposers with atonal music and things
coming out of really the kind of stuffthat Ravel had, had developed, you know.
Annie Sargent (18:36):
Yes.
So, Bartok is also easy to pick outbecause, you know, he introduced
a whole lot of new types of soundsthat we weren't used to hearing.
Elyse Rivin (18:46):
Yeah, as well, some people still won't want to listen to Bartók, you
have to really like that kind of music.
Annie Sargent (18:51):
I think it's nice.
I, some of it I like, actually.
So, in 1920, this is Mr.
Maurice Ravel.
He is nominated for the Legion of Honor...
Uh huh.
Elyse Rivin (19:01):
And he turns it down.
Annie Sargent (19:02):
Why?
Elyse Rivin (19:03):
He said that he will not take a prize, it's interesting considering that
as a young man, he wanted so desperatelyto have the Prix de Rome, right?
He said that the Legion of Honor wasa government prize, and this is, I've
translated the quote, it says that nogovernment or prince is going to decorate
him because that means they have the rightto judge whether his work is good or not.
Annie Sargent (19:28):
Oh dear, yes, okay.
Elyse Rivin (19:30):
So hoity do do.
So he did not take his Legion of Honor.
He refused it.
Never got it.
Annie Sargent (19:36):
That's a bit much, huh?
Yeah.
Elyse Rivin (19:40):
Very, very proud man, I'd say, you know, I mean, interesting,
this idea, you get that today in thingslike the prizes for painting prizes,
for acting, every once in a while youget somebody who goes, well, you can't
tell me whether it's good or not.
That's, it's a very interestingkind of attitude to have.
I mean, it's kind of...
Annie Sargent (19:57):
Well, it's a fact that in the arts, your
productions are going to be judged.
How do you not?
And whether it's the arts or anythingelse, like if you build houses,
people will have an idea of whetherthey like your houses or not.
And if you're a gardener, do theylike your garden or not, you know.
Elyse Rivin (20:17):
I've known other people, I mean, or I've read about other people in
different forms of the arts, includingarchitecture, who have also refused prizes
for the same exact reason, you know.
It's like, don't tell me whether my workis good or not, but it's a very particular
kind of stance to take, you know.
Annie Sargent (20:32):
I do know that he was very, he was not super prolific as a composer.
So I think he only published about 60pieces his whole life, which is not a lot.
There are composers who, youknow, thousand and then some.
And it's because he would justagonize over every note and he
wanted things to be just right.
So clearly, he had high standards whenit came to his work, but not wanting it
(20:58):
to be, you know, kind of judged or...
Elyse Rivin (21:01):
It's interesting.
It's like he was his own judge andyou would listen to him or not, but
nobody is going to decide wether...
it's interesting position to take right?
Annie Sargent (21:10):
Worth of a prize or not.
Hmm.
Interesting.
Elyse Rivin (21:14):
So that was 1920.
And then in 1928, so 1928, let's see,he is 25, 35, 45, 53, in 1928, he has
his dream wish come true, and he goeson a grand tour of the United States.
In the interim, between 1900 and1920, he already was aware of American
(21:36):
music, and mostly Afro-American music.
He had been able to hear some music thatcame from the States with the people
who would move to France and move toEurope, especially after World War I.
And so he began this enormous,enormous tour of the United States,
both as a pianist, as a composer,and as a conductor of orchestra.
(21:58):
So, he did the Grand Tour, although hedid spend a good deal of time in New
York, and while he was in New York, and Ithink he spent just about the whole year
on this visit to the United States, hespent just about every single night going
to jazz clubs, to ragtime, to listen toragtime music, to jazz music, to blues
music, he spent his nights in Harlem.
(22:20):
And he became very good friendswith someone whose work I love,
and that is George Gershwin.
Annie Sargent (22:24):
Uh huh.
There's a lot of similaritiesbetween the two, as a matter of fact.
Elyse Rivin (22:28):
Right.
And Gershwin, of course, who wasyounger, idolized him apparently.
I saw a few pictures yesterday,I was looking on internet, and
they were a whole group of people,including impresarios and everything.
So they became relatively good friends.
And there's a story who knows ifit's exactly true that at one point
Gershwin said to Ravel that hewanted to study composition with him.
(22:49):
Now, in 1928, I don't know exactly howold Gershwin was, but he was already
making a name for himself as a composer.
And Ravel said no.
And when Gershwin asked why, he said,because if you study composition with me,
you will wind up being a second rate Ravelinstead of being a first rate Gershwin.
Annie Sargent (23:08):
Oh, wow.
That's a very interesting way to put it.
Elyse Rivin (23:11):
I think it's wonderful.
I think it's absolutely wonderful.
Basically, he's saying, you have your ownvoice, you don't need to study with me to
continue it, you know, that kind of thing.
Which I think is just agreat quote, you know?
Annie Sargent (23:22):
It's very nice.
Elyse Rivin (23:25):
So he returns to Paris, and at that moment, at the very, very
end of 1928, he's commissioned towrite a piece of music for a ballet
by one of his friends, a Russianballet dancer named Ida Rubinstein.
I don't know that much about her, butshe was actually the person who made
the demand on Ravel to write a piece forher, for a ballet she wanted to perform.
Annie Sargent (23:50):
So she commissioned a piece.
Elyse Rivin (23:51):
She commissioned a piece.
And between July and October of 1928,he worked on a piece of music that
is now considered to be the mostplayed piece of music in the world.
And that is Bolero.
Annie Sargent (24:04):
Right.
I think Bolero and FourSeasons are probably the most
played music in the world.
Elyse Rivin (24:09):
It's a piece of music that lasts 17 minutes.
It is based on an Andalusian themethat he remembered from his childhood.
I don't know much about musicalterms, but it says that there's a
ritournelle in it, which obviouslyis the way of, I suppose, repetition.
Annie Sargent (24:27):
Right, it's a returning pattern.
It's a returning pattern andthere's just two themes to it.
And of course it's the same notes over,and over, and over again at different
rhythms, you know, as fast and slow.
And then it ends in a crescendo.
And also he adds instruments.
So different instruments take the melodyand they sound quite different, you know?
(24:48):
So it adds to the interest andyou have this drum the whole time.
Elyse Rivin (24:55):
It's, hypnotic.
Annie Sargent (24:56):
Yes, it is.
Elyse Rivin (24:57):
Absolutely hypnotic.
The premiere of Ballero was on the22nd of November at the Opera Garnier.
Apparently, it was a packed house.
And most of the people apparently did notknow what to make of this piece of music.
There were a few people who saidhe was out of his mind, but I
don't know if at the time peopleactually walked out or not, you know.
Annie Sargent (25:20):
I don't think so.
Elyse Rivin (25:20):
I don't think so, but some people actually wrote afterwards
and said (25:23):
What was he doing?
What was he thinking?
But for most of the people there,they thought it was fabulous and it
was an enormous and huge success.
It was very controversialas a piece of music.
It was not like anything anybodyhad ever performed before.
And the irony, of course, is thatin the end, at the end of his
career, he really did not considerit to be the most important piece
(25:45):
of music that he had written.
But it is the piece of music thathe is absolutely the most known for.
Annie Sargent (25:52):
Well, that's the thing, he wrote so much, like he wrote a lot
of piano concertos, he wrote things forsolo pianists, that are just beautiful.
And yet he's known for the mostapproachable piece that he ever
wrote, which I happen to like.
Yeah, so it's just a personal choice.
(26:13):
I think it's a beautiful ballet.
I've seen some beautiful dancing to it.
Elyse Rivin (26:17):
I actually had a chance a number of years ago, this is a while ago,
thanks to my sister, one of my sisters,my sister Lucille, who was living in
Paris, and she got tickets for us tosee the Béjart performance of Bolero.
And we were in the second row and I willnever ever forget that night ever ever.
(26:38):
We got the sweat on us,you know, it was fabulous.
It is so hypnotic and so it puts you intoa trance as a piece of music you know, I
mean it really is just seeing these bodiesswaying back and forth and everything.
It's fabulous.
But I think I can see why some peoplereally, really would not like it.
(26:58):
But the irony of course, is that itbecame an absolute international success.
And they say, you know, who knows ifit's true, that an example of Bolero
is played every 10 minutes somewhere inthe world, and considering that it lasts
17 minutes, this is good, this is goodfor chat to figure out if this is true
or not, that basically it means thatthere's never a moment when Bolero is
(27:19):
not being played somewhere in the world.
Annie Sargent (27:22):
Oh, I'm sure that's true.
I'm sure that's true.
And also, they've made so manydifferent versions of it, like with all
sorts, like some of them sound awful.
It's like some Casio from thesixties sound, it's awful.
And then some of themsound really, really good.
So it just depends on who's performing it.
Elyse Rivin (27:40):
It definitely does.
He also did very interestingly, he wrotetwo piano concertos for a left hand.
And it's because he had a friend wholost his right hand in the war in
World War I, he was a pianist, heasked him to write music for him that
he could play just with his left hand.
Annie Sargent (27:59):
It's the Concerto for Left Hand, is what it's called.
I don't
Elyse Rivin (28:01):
know if I've ever heard it.
Annie Sargent (28:02):
I've heard some of it.
It's part of the things I waslistening to this morning.
I wouldn't say it's my favoriteof his, but it's very interesting.
And it's wonderful that he tookthe challenge to write a piece
mostly for a one-handed pianist.
I mean, that is just not something youdo, you know, and as someone who was
as famous as he was, he could have justturned it down, you know, but he did it.
Elyse Rivin (28:25):
He did it.
Yeah, I guess he was one of thosepeople, it sounds like he loved
the challenge, no matter what.
I mean, this was basically, he consideredthat all music was interesting,
and he was trying most of his lifeto figure out how to incorporate
different rhythms, different patternsof music into his own compositions.
And so basically that is what he did, heperformed and composed for over 40 years.
(28:50):
He eventually bought a house in thesuburbs, about 30 kilometers outside of
Paris, in a town called Monfort l’Amaury.
But he still went to Paris all thetime to go to the nightclubs, to
see live music, to hang out withhis friends, to see the dancers.
His life was the nightlife of Paris.
And in 1933, he got hit by a car.
(29:14):
And what happened was, and this isone of those ironies, but it's not
just with him that they discoveredwhen they took him to the hospital,
that he was having, he actually hadan incurable neurological problem.
They didn't put any name on it, I'venever found anything that said what it
was, but apparently it kind of got setoff by it or got worse because of getting
(29:34):
hit in the head in this car accident.
And he had to stop.
He stopped composing.
And he stopped playing becauseit probably affected his hands
as well, his mental capacities.
And he died in 1937 just a day ortwo after having had a surgery to
see if they could actually repairsomething to make him feel better.
(29:54):
So he was not an old man.
He was only 62 when he died.
Annie Sargent (29:58):
Wow.
It's impressive to me that because,I mean, there are a lot of composers
who wrote a lot of things becausethey felt compelled to, you know,
they had ideas every five seconds.
But composing music is very difficult.
My father in law is a composerand has been commissioned to
write many pieces and so forth.
And it's not an easy process.
(30:19):
It is really a lot of work is involvedbecause they need to make sure that
all the instruments can perform this,they show off what the instrument
can do is, is what they're tryingto do, whatever the theme of the
music or the tune of the music is.
It's a lot of work and finding inspirationfor new music is, it's not easy.
(30:39):
it's like everything has beenwritten already, it seems.
Elyse Rivin (30:43):
Well, yeah, I mean, again equating it to the equivalent
in painting, for instance, it'sexactly, you could say the same thing.
You have to figure out howto make something new that
hasn't been done before.
I mean, that's what's so amazing about it.
When Ravel died, there was already, youknow, the much more into the atonal music
and other kinds of music that come up.
(31:03):
Of course, there's been a lotof music that's was created
through the 20th century.
But really, he is considered to beone of the two greatest innovators
of modern music, introducing thingsthat become part of what is known
as modern music, and that was whathe basically dedicated his life to.
Annie Sargent (31:21):
Yeah, and it's really interesting because his music,
it's like it's in constant motion.
It flows kind of like water,you know, it just never stops.
And I think it's really good to listento when you're trying to work and
concentrate on what you're doing, becauseit's always a satisfying pattern and
(31:41):
your brain likes to have a satisfyingpattern to hang on to while your hands
are typing or doing something else.
I really like to listen to some of hispieces while working, not while sleeping.
Because another thing he did is, hetook very well known tunes, but well
known to like the South of Spain orwell known to some African group or
(32:05):
something, and he would speed them upand make that the theme of his music.
So he had a lot of purposeful researchinto finding new melodies, you know?
It was still melodic kind of work,whereas the people that followed
him threw the melody out of the doorand you were like, kicked it to the
(32:25):
curb, and we're like, it doesn't haveto be melodic at all, which, hmm...
maybe not, maybe it does.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really interesting to me thathis music has lived on despite the
fact that, you know, I think somebodyasked him about the Bolero and he said,
yeah, it's the best piece I've everwritten, except there's no music in it.
(32:45):
And what he meant is...
Elyse Rivin (32:46):
It's there to put you into a trance, I think.
Annie Sargent (32:48):
Yeah, but there is plenty of music in it.
And I think it's the introduction to alot of people to classical music, to,
you know, not pop, not easy listen stuff,just like you, I remember vividly watching
Bolero and Béjart, not in person, on TV.
Man, that was just,that was a performance.
(33:11):
That was like, it's notsomething you forget.
You know, so it's well deserved thathe sticks out in people's minds.
I get it.
I think he's a genius.
And he wrote some pieces that were abit edgy as well, he was at the, kind
of, at the cusp of big change, buthe's most famous for a Bolero that is
not all that challenging, you know.
Elyse Rivin (33:33):
It's just fascinating, you know, that he started out really coming
out of the tradition of a much moretraditional romantic kind of classical
music, and then worked his way intothe absolute announcement of modern,
and contemporary, and experimentation.
I find him more interesting to listento, for instance, than Debussy,
who bores me after 10, 15 minutes.
(33:55):
Yeah, I kind of, Debussy is finefor putting me to sleep, you know.
But I was going to, I just listened toyou thinking, for me, the comparison
in a strange way is with Mozart,and for instance, the Magic Flute,
there's something about certainpieces of music that stay with
you forever, and ever, and ever.
Annie Sargent (34:14):
Right, so Mozart was 150 years earlier than Ravel, but it is true
that they both adhered to the same kindof principles and rules of composition.
It's just that Ravel introducedtunes from other cultures, other
places which Mozart didn't.
(34:36):
And that's where, you know, Raveland Gershwin are so close because
they are both very very well trainedcomposers who can write fabulous
work but are very influenced by jazz.
Elyse Rivin (34:50):
Right.
Annie Sargent (34:50):
That makes them really interesting to listen to, you know?
Yeah.
But when you have time, like whenyou're, when you want to listen to
music, what do you turn on Elyse?
Elyse Rivin (35:00):
In the car, I listen to a station called FIP.
Annie Sargent (35:02):
Yeah, so that's...
Elyse Rivin (35:03):
France Inter Paris.
One of the things that's interestingabout it is that it's all music.
I don't like talk radio at all.
I just have this thing, I hate talk radio.
Annie Sargent (35:12):
Here's a podcaster who doesn't like to talk.
Elyse Rivin (35:14):
I love listening to music in the car, and one of the things
I found out about the station isthat from the beginning they decided
that they only wanted women as...
it's not DJs and announcers.
Yeah, so they, for a specific reasonwhen it began this, I don't know...
Annie Sargent (35:29):
...soft voices, very smooth.
Elyse Rivin (35:31):
And so you have different people, I never know who they are,
I never pay attention, but likeevery couple of hours they change.
So I know that there are differenttimes of the day when it's either
American stuff like blues and oldrock, or it can be classical, or
it can be this, or it can be that.
And so I love the fact that I don't knowwhat I'm going to be listening to, when I
(35:53):
put on the radio, but it's always music.
The reason why I don't likelistening to talk in the car
is because I get distracted.
See, so the music is kind of like,if I don't have the music on the
car, I think there's somethingwrong, what's going on in the car?
You know.
Oh, did I leave the door open?
Something is weird, you know?
But that's what I listen to.
And at home I listen a lot, whenI'm not using a disc, I have a lot
(36:17):
of music, but I don't always putthe music on, I listen to France
Musique at certain times of the day.
And that is, I like too, becauseI do interviews with singers, and
composers, and musicians, and Ilike listening to them talk about
their art, their music, you know?
Yeah, so you do like talks, sometimes?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just not in the car.
It's like, ooh, I don't knowif I'm going left or right,
(36:37):
if I'm in the car, you know.
Annie Sargent (36:39):
That's funny, because I can listen to anything in the car.
Elyse Rivin (36:42):
I know, but no, at home I can, at home I do, and I will sit
and listen to an interview with acomposer or a musician that I find it
fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
Annie Sargent (36:51):
And very often what I do is like, if I'm watching a movie, or
something, and they play something that'sinteresting, or France Culture, France...
What's the name of that station?
Elyse Rivin (37:03):
France Musique, France Classique, et France Culture.
Annie Sargent (37:06):
Yeah, anyway, I'm not sure we got the names perfectly right, but
they often play things, like I listento Franck Ferrand, I really like Franck
Ferrand as a historian, and in betweenhis historical stuff, he will play part
of a symphony or a concerto or something.
And very often, I just pause the thingand I start listening to the whole thing.
(37:26):
Yeah, and then I'm, perhaps I goback to whatever he was talking
to, whatever person he was talkingabout, but perhaps I don't.
So that's often how I work, I oftenuse Shazam to see what they're playing,
like in the movies, and sometimes itis classical, not always, you know.
And then I listen to the whole thing.
I like to listen to the whole album.
Like recently I was listening to someonewho talked about Tracy Chapman, and I
(37:48):
listened to the whole Revolution album.
It is fascinating tolisten to that whole thing.
Of course, doesn't much to do withRavel, but equally inventive, I think.
Very, very out there as a person.
So I just like to hear the whole thing.
When I start with a musician, Ijust like to listen to a lot of it.
Elyse Rivin (38:08):
I think I'm going to go home and listen to some Ravel.
Annie Sargent (38:11):
But when I walk the dog, I don't know, classical
music for walking, it's...
Elyse Rivin (38:15):
No, no, you need something a little bit more...
Annie Sargent (38:17):
I'm pretty sure there's lots of people who listen to
classical music while walking, too.
Elyse Rivin (38:22):
We'll find out.
Annie Sargent (38:23):
Perhaps they will tell us,
Tell
Elyse Rivin (38:24):
us, what do you listen to, and when?
Annie Sargent (38:27):
Well, yeah.
What do you listen to whenyou're driving, walking, and not
listening to this podcast, clearly?
Merci beaucoup, Élyse.
Elyse Rivin (38:35):
De rien, Annie.
Au revoir.
Au revoir.
Annie Sargent (38:44):
Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving
back and supporting the show.
Patreon supporters get new episodes assoon as they are ready, and ads free.
If that sounds good to you, be likethem, follow the link in the show notes!
Patrons also get more exclusiverewards for doing that, you can
see them at patreon.com/joinus.
(39:08):
And a shout out this week tonew patrons, Karen Lewis, Nat,
Christopher Pace and Beatrice.
Thank you all, and to all my currentpatrons, it is wonderful to have
you on board with the community offrancophiles who keep this podcast going.
And to support Elyse, goto patreon.com/Elysart.
(39:33):
This week I publisheda reward for patrons.
It was a casual convo between Elyseand I, where we talked about all
sorts of things, and these areunscripted, just casual conversations.
And I also had a Zoommeeting with my patrons.
It's always great talkingto all of you face to face.
I want to read two reviews ofmy VoiceMap tours this week.
One person said (39:54):
"I did it in the afternoon on my own, and again,
at night with my husband whenwe got out of his conference".
Great, wow.
Yes, doing it twice.
Lots of people report that theyenjoy doing them twice because they
are kind of very dense, some ofthem especially, and very fun, so.
Another person wrote (40:11):
"Absolutely perfect method to enjoy Paris at your own
pace, the combination of knowledge andtechnology delivers a great experience.
This was our fourth visit toParis, but the first experience
with Annie's wonderful guidance.
Great pace.
Love the brief.
But so informativevignettes along the way.
(40:32):
We shared earbuds andalmost stayed together.
Stopped many times alongthe way to shop and eat.
Looking forward to the nextfour tours we purchased".
Thank you very much for those reviews.
Yes, I think people really enjoy those.
And podcast listeners get a big discountfor buying these tours from my website.
(40:54):
You can see this atjoinusinfrance.com/boutique.
There's also a new review of my newtour called "Savoring Paris, a Food
Lover's Walk Around Les Halles".
This person said (41:04):
"Annie Sargent's walking tours are excellent with
clear descriptions, great historyand anecdotes and practical tips.
I've been to Paris several times andalways learn something new on her tours.
They enhance any trip to Paris".
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Now, let me share a few thoughtsabout taking the train in France.
(41:26):
Of course, traveling by train in Franceoffers a splendid window into the
heart of French culture and landscape.
It blends efficiency with the pleasureof unhurried movement through the
countryside, and cities as well.
But for those unaccustomed to traintravel, which is a lot of my listeners,
as a matter of fact, especiallyif you're from a country where the
(41:48):
railway system does not form thebackbone of public transportation,
here are some reflections andpractical tips to enhance your journey.
And if you want more details, youshould definitely listen to episode 428
'All Aboard the French Train System'.
All right, here's a few tips.
French trains are typically punctual.
(42:10):
But of course, there are,you know, exceptions.
But you need to be on time.
Trains wait for no one.
The doors close minutes before departure.
So check train schedules in advance andaim to arrive at the station at least
30 minutes before your train departs.
This buffer lets you navigate thestation, validate your ticket if
(42:34):
necessary, and find the correctplatform without too much stress.
Your train platform is not goingto be announced until 20 minutes
before it's time to leave.
Just be aware of that andyou should really check the
train number on your ticket.
It says it gives you a train number.
Check that against whatyou see on the displays.
(42:55):
You have to understandthe French ticket systems.
Tickets can be purchased online,through apps, at station kiosks, they
can be paper, they can be on your app.
I really recommend that you just buyyour ticket from either the website or
the app, and that you have your traincode, your QR code, on your phone.
(43:19):
Okay.
This is the easiest way.
That way you don't have to worryabout, do I need to validate
this ticket or whatever.
You know, it's a codeand you're good to go.
You have to learn a little bitabout navigating the stations.
Train stations are hubs of activity,but they are well organized.
The information screens display departureand arrival times, just like an airport.
(43:43):
The platform, which we say 'voie', thenumbers are crucial for boarding the train
at the right place, like I mentioned.
If you're not sure, ask stationstaff, they usually have red jackets
or fellow passengers for help.
Knowing basic French,you know, helps as well.
(44:04):
Depending on where youare, it's not mandatory.
You have to select the right seat.
If your ticket includes a reservedseat, you have to find that one
because, so you have to find theright car, the right carriage, I
guess, and also the right seat number.
The trains are long, carriages areusually labeled both inside and outside.
(44:26):
There's a big number one or numbertwo on the side of the train.
That's the class of the train.
To find the car number, that's ona small little screen on the side.
And that will say, you know,car number blah, blah, blah.
And it will show you where theseats are, if they're upstairs
(44:48):
or downstairs for the TGV.
Luggage, unlike air travel, they don'ttake your luggage away and give it back
at the end of the trip, but there areracks just like you'll find on a shuttle
bus, like the shuttle bus that takes youto the airport, there are racks where
everybody puts their luggage, right?
(45:09):
Well, it's the same on the train,you will put your luggage there.
Typically, I recommend that you keepyour valuables with you in your purse
or on a smaller backpack or carryonthat you can have with you at all times.
So you'll put your big piece ofluggage on the racks, you can
lock them up if you want to.
(45:29):
I don't find that necessary.
I'm not aware of theft onthe train being a big deal.
Perhaps it was yearsago, but it's not today.
So, just relax, okay?
But do keep your valuables withyou on your person, obviously.
And once you find your seat, you willhave a little space to put some luggage
in front of you and also above your headfor mostly coats and things like that.
(45:52):
And then you just needto enjoy the ride, okay?
It's very scenic.
Just relax, have a good time.
You can read, depending on the seatyou booked, you may have a plug.
Or not, some places don't.
Sometimes there's food on thetrain, sometimes there's not.
Even if there is food on thetrain, I don't like the food on
the train, so I bring my own.
(46:13):
Just relax, you'll get there soon enough.
And they'll make announcements in Frenchbut there are also kind of signs inside,
like screens inside of the train.
And if you have your ticket onthe app, you can follow your
own train on the app as well.
So, extra points for the apps.
If you purchase your tickets on the app,that's where you will find information
(46:36):
about possible delays, possiblestrikes, which again, strikes do happen.
Strikes get announced all the time.
Most of the time, the strikedoesn't go forward, so don't panic.
Wait until the day before, 24 hoursbefore a strike, they need to say
if they're really doing it or not.
(46:58):
And I know it's hard to waitthat long, but you just have to.
If there is a strike, if your trainis canceled, they never cancel all
the trains, so it might delay youa little bit, but it's not going
to ruin your trip unless you bookedyour days like you're a lunatic.
And if you listen to me,you probably don't do that.
(47:19):
And also just so you know, thetrain is the most ecological way
to travel, it's even better than anelectric car, if you can believe that.
So enjoy the trains in France, be awarethat they don't go everywhere, that it's
not the fast train that goes everywhere.
Oh, and yes, this week, somebody,she had read on the fine print that
(47:42):
she could, for a 19 Euro fee, shecould change her departure city.
Well, yes, you can, but that's onlyif you want to depart from a city
that's on that same line, okay?
You cannot change departure cityto a completely different line.
(48:02):
If you need to do that, geta refund on that first ticket
and get a different one, okay?
Which you can do with some, it's just likeairlines, sometimes you can get a refund
on your ticket, sometimes you cannot.
Read the fine print.
My thanks to podcast editorsAnne and Cristian Cotovan
who produced the transcripts.
(48:22):
Next week on the podcast, atrip report with Joseph O'Reilly
about the two faces of Provence.
It was a fun recording.
I think you'll enjoy it, especiallyif you're going to Provence, or if
you have a thing for Provence, and whodoesn't, you have to listen to that one.
And remember patrons get an adfree version of this episode.
(48:42):
Click on the link in theshow notes to be like them.
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time so
we can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent andCopyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance.
(49:02):
It is released under a CreativeCommons, attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.
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