September 28, 2025 • 56 mins
Planning to explore France without renting a car? In this episode of the Join Us in France Travel Podcast, host Annie Sargent talks with solo traveler Helena Fedorec about her practical, budget-friendly journey across France. The episode, Discover France by Train and Bus: A Solo Traveler’s Budget Guide, is packed with tips for anyone eager to see more of France using public transportation.
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Helena shares how she built her itinerary around France’s excellent train and regional bus network, saving money and skipping the stress of driving. She proves that it’s possible to travel solo in comfort, even at 70, and enjoy a rich, flexible experience.
Her journey included Nice, Saint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat, Menton, Èze, Cagnes-sur-Mer, Saint-Paul-de-Vence, Toulouse, Bordeaux, La Rochelle, Île de Ré, Angers, Chartres, Paris, Fontenay-aux-Roses, Domaine de Sceaux near Paris. Each stop brought new discoveries—historic towns, museums, vibrant markets, and scenic routes. She highlights the value of regional trains (TER) and intercity buses for reaching charming towns and hidden gems.
Annie and Helena talk about booking strategies, the pros and cons of rail passes, and how to keep travel costs low without missing out on memorable experiences. They also share tips for traveling off-season, packing light, and making the most of France’s reliable public transit.
If you’re curious about car-free travel in France, or you want to stretch your budget while exploring French culture and history, this conversation offers inspiration and practical guidance.
🎧 Subscribe to the Join Us in France Travel Podcast for more stories and tips about traveling in France—whether by train, bus, car, bike, or on foot.
More episodes about traveling solo travel in France
#JoinUsInFrance, #FrancePodcast, #TravelFrance, #FrenchCulture, #ExploreFrance, #DiscoverFrance, #FranceTravelTips, #RealFrance, #Francophile, #FranceAdventures, #DiscoverFranceByTrain, #FranceByBus, #SoloTravelFrance, #BudgetTravelFrance, #HiddenGemsFrance, #TrainTravelTips, #FranceTripPlanning, #SustainableTravel, #ExploreFrenchTowns, #VisitFrance
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
This is Join Us in France, episode565, cinq cent soixante-cinq.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a conversationwith Helena Fedorec, who
celebrated turning 70 in style.
(00:39):
She traveled solo, she was incrediblysavvy and she did it all on a budget.
You'll hear her share her month-longadventure across France by train, bus,
and foot, uncovering hidden gems, art,gardens, and the joys of slow travel.
She went from Nice to Chartres.
(00:59):
You will discover how to exploreFrance affordably, connect with
locals, which she loves doing, andembrace the freedom of the open road.
There is inspiration for everytraveler in this chat with Helena,
who is a wonderful boot camperas well, so I know her in person.
She's an amazing human being.
This podcast is fueled bychocolatine, coffee, and the
(01:23):
generosity of listeners like you.
You book itinerary consults, take myVoiceMap tours, join the boot camp, hop in
my electric car for a day trip, or chip inon Patreon, and I'm so grateful for that.
Want to keep me going and skip the ads?
There's a link for that in theshow notes, and to look up any
(01:44):
of my products or services, go tojoinusinfrance.com/boutique, and merci.
Half of the tickets forBootcamp 2026 are already sold.
I'm surprised by this.
It's selling surprisinglyquickly this year.
If you'd like to find out moreabout this event, browse to
(02:05):
joinusinfrance.com/bootcamp2026.
But let me tell you quickly that thedates are October 3rd until 10th next
year, 2026, and you can join us inFrance for seven days of hanging out
with fellow Francophiles, visits ofwonderful sites around Toulouse and
Occitanie, and optional language classes.
(02:27):
If this is the first you've heard ofthe bootcamp and want to know more,
first of all, welcome to you, and youcan email me annie@joinusinfrance.com.
For the magazine part of the podcast,after my chat with Helena today, I'll
discuss why I've stopped recommendingKomoot, the route planning app for hiking,
cycling, and running, and switch torecommending Decathlon Outdoor instead.
(02:53):
I made the switch a few months ago,but since I release episodes several
months after I record them, youhaven't heard me talk about that
yet, and it's time to fix that.
I'll also talk about the closingof the Centre Pompidou in Paris.
It's closing for five years.
And the Bayeux Tapestry Museum isalso closed until October 2027.
(03:14):
The British Museum in London willdisplay the tapestry, and I'll
give you all the details in themagazine part of the podcast.
There's a website and a newsletterto go along with this podcast,
and you can go there when panningfor gold nuggets of information in
preparation for your trip to France.
And the newsletter is pretty goodtoo, joinusinfrance.com/newsletter
(03:37):
if you'd like to sign up.
Bonjour, Helena Sweeney, andwelcome to Join Us in France.
Bonjour, Annie.
Wonderful to see you again,because we know each other
from the boot camp, don't we?
We do, indeed.
(03:58):
Yes.
And you're coming back to the boot camp.
I am.
I had such a wonderful time.
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
But today, we are going to talkabout a solo trip that you took.
You were turning 70, and you decidedyou wanted to make it a budget trip.
So we're going to concentrate onthat, on your preparation, on how you
(04:19):
found your budget options, and alsowhat were your favorite things to do.
You went off the beaten track a littlebit on this trip, which is wonderful.
So, Helena, tell us about yourpreparation for this trip.
How did you go about...Well, what inspired it and
how did you prepare for it?
Okay.
So, turning 70 was coming up,and I really dislike parties
(04:41):
and fuss made in gatherings.
So I said to my family, " Pleasedon't plan anything.
I'm going to go away.
In fact, I'm going to go away for awhole month, and I'm going to go to
France, and I'm just going to do itby train or by bus or by walking, and
just take it very simply and slowly."And in a sense, just celebrating the
(05:02):
fact that, you know, I'm still here, Ican do all these things, and enjoy it.
Now, I need to say that my familythen promptly decided that they
would turn up halfway through.
So there were three days when theywere actually with me, with their
three-year-old granddaughter.
And my lovely son cameover from Australia.
Complete surprise.
(05:23):
Wow.
Most of the trip was by myself, butI can actually also tell you a little
bit about what it was like beingin France with a three-year-old.
Very good.
Yes.
And we should say that youare from Australia but you
live in England right now.
That's right.
Yeah.
You can probably hear a mixed... I livedin Australia for 45 years and then about
(05:45):
four years ago, returned to England,which is, that gives me access to France.
Yeah.
All right.
So how did you plan this trip?
What tips can you share withlisteners about how to go about that?
Yeah.
So I'm not one of those people wholikes to plan every single minute
of every day and make huge plans.
(06:05):
But what I do do is look atif you like, a big picture.
And beforehand, I knew that I wantedto travel as much as possible, but
keep it manageable financially.
And one of the most usefulbooks I used was Europe by Rail.
And that could show me someroutes that are available on
the main train lines in France.
(06:26):
I decided against buses because often thetravel times were too long, whereas the
trains seem really efficient in Europe.
So I planned a route, and Ithink I mentioned it to you and
you gave me some ideas too, thatwould take me in a big circle.
So I knew I was going togo to France by Eurostar.
If you book long enough in advancefrom England, you can get to
(06:47):
Paris for 39 pounds one way.
So I had both going and comingback at a very cheap rate.
So I knew my starting and finishingpoint would be Paris, and then I planned
a route that took me from Paris toNice, from Nice to Toulouse, could
not miss out on Toulouse after beingthere for the boot camp, gorgeous city.
(07:08):
Then to Bordeaux, then to La Rochelleand Angers, that was your suggestion.
And then from there I went up toChartres, I'd been there before,
and then returned through to Paris.
Wonderful.
So, when you said you bookedyour Eurostar in advance, how
far in advance did you do it?
I think I did it... They releasedthe dates about, I think it's between
(07:30):
three and six months in advance, Ithink it's three months in advance.
You can actually download the Eurostarapp and subscribe, and that way
you get notifications of when thecheap tickets are coming through.
So they often have flash sales thatlast for three days or something.
Uh-huh.
It's actually really worth justfollowing it regularly and that includes
(07:53):
trains not just to Paris but alsoto Lille, to Belgium, and Amsterdam.
Very nice.
Did you purchase a discount card?
Yes.
So again, part of traveling by rail,because obviously I'm over 60, I
learned about the SNCF senior rail card.
And I forget how much it was, itwasn't that expensive actually, it was
(08:15):
under 50 pounds, way under 50 pounds.
And you get a third off rail travel.
And it was really useful.
So again, there's an app thatyou download on your phone.
And there were a few times, whenI was traveling, especially around
the Nice area, that I would, on thespur of the moment, decide to take
a train and I could book it on myphone, and I also got the discount.
(08:37):
And the long journeys I got the discount.
That was really worth doing.
Right, and this card, I think the fullprice is 69 euros, but the senior card
goes on sale as well occasionally.
I think I got it on sale.
There's discount cards for differentage groups, but every time you
have to buy it and it's worth it.
(08:58):
If you just take a couple of traintrips, it's usually worth it.
Especially if you can buyit at the discount price.
Totally agree.
Yeah.
And I assume you booked most ofyour tickets through the app?
Did you use SNCF Connector did you use another app?
Okay.
The major travel, gettingfrom city to city, I bought in
advance and booked in advance.
(09:18):
And I used, good question, no, Iused the SNCF app.... but I actually
also have the Trainline app.
There were a couple of times when I madespontaneous trips, like, you know, short
trips to a little town or whatever,when I would actually it was easier
to book on the spot with Trainline.
Yeah, and it just depended whichtrains I was going to be taking.
(09:40):
If that sounds vague, and it probably doessound vague, it's because at the time I'd
work out, "Okay, what's the best one todo now, given the time that I've got?"
Right.
Right.
Yeah, and Trainline and SNCF app, SNCFConnect work well together because
once you have booked a ticket, youhave a ticket number and you can
import it from one to the other.
(10:01):
With the SNCF app, you can also put yourticket on your Apple Watch if you want to.
So, you know, these arepretty nifty applications.
I learned today, I hadn't realized this,maybe it's new, that you can also buy
your metro tickets on the SNCF app.
It's a pretty good app.
I run my phone in English, so itdownloaded the app in English, and so
(10:25):
there's no complications for peoplewho don't speak French, and you do,
but speaking of that, was it necessaryfor you to have some level of French
seeing that you were not always insuper touristy parts of the country?
Okay.
So, was it necessary?
No.
So long as you've got, you really do needthose basic understandings of greetings.
(10:47):
You have to say bonjour to peopleand show respect and, yeah, have
a basic knowledge of the language.
I do now speak fairly good French,probably better than I spoke when
I was at the boot camp because I'vestarted a French café, so every
week we meet and speak French.
Bravo, bravo.
I think that was one of the greatadvantages for me, that although
(11:08):
I love traveling solo, I also liketalking to people that I meet.
And I got into some really interestingconversations when I was on a train
or sitting next to someone in a café,couple of times sitting in a garden
and there'd be someone working onthe garden and we'd start talking.
So, I think if people can workon their French before they go
(11:30):
to France, it really pays off.
One time in particular, the only time Ihad a problem with accommodation, most of
the time I stayed in hostels, and therewas one time when I stay, had a night in
a hotel, and that, my booking had beenstuffed up, and it was actually very
useful then to be able to speak French.
Yes.
Yes.
I should say that you area very sociable person.
(11:52):
You enjoy the company of other people,you enjoy talking to people, and
so it comes naturally to you, but Ithink it's worth making an effort to
chitchat with French people, if you can.
You know, it won't be life-changing, okay?
But it will be, it will make yourjourney more pleasant, that's for sure.
I often read on Facebook sites,people who feel very wary, and imagine
(12:16):
that every person who approachesthem is going to be a pickpocket.
And you do need to be sensible,would never doubt that, traveling
in any situation, but don't expectthe worst from people, you know?
Just smile.
Yeah, smile.
Be a real human being and try totalk to people, that's excellent.
Okay, so we know that you usethe SNCF and Trainline apps.
(12:37):
What else did you doto plan for this trip?
Okay.
So the way that I do it is, once Ihad my cities in place, and oh, one
thing with the budget is it's, I find,is you've got to think, "Where do I
want to spend my money?" So for somepeople, they would make eating out or
trying different wines or exploringdifferent shopping areas for example,
(12:59):
a priority, and that's really good.
For me, I knew that the things thatI really wanted to do were to see art
galleries, to see museums, and I dohave a thing about visiting gardens.
So that was another reason why theplaces that I went to, I actually
looked beforehand to what museumswere there or what gardens were there.
(13:20):
So with planning, I would alwaysplan at least three nights in
a location, and personally, Ithink five nights is worth it.
Even in a place that people say, "Oh,there's not much there," because,
I'm a huge fan of slow travel.
If you take time in a place and explore,you actually really get a, you get a feel
(13:41):
of how people have lived over years, whatare the particular aspects of each town,
and you discover some lovely little cafés.
I mean, my idea of luxury is cup of coffeeand a glass of wine, and the height of
luxury is a cheese platter to go with it.
So I had five nights in Nice,and then most of the others
were either four or three.
(14:02):
So what I would do on every day ispick out maybe two places that I
would want to see during that day.
I do an awful lot of walking.
I prefer not to use, not to base thingsaround having to do long journeys
on metros or something like that.
And quite often I would choose placesthat are maybe about two hours apart,
two hours on foot, because part ofwhat I enjoy doing is walking somewhere
(14:27):
and looking at the buildings, lookingat the gardens, all those things.
So that's a long walk.
I mean, you know, if you aregoing to walk two hours between
the venues you want to visit, andthen back to your accommodations,
what, you were walking for six...
Yeah.
I quite often do that though.
I'll set off early in the morning.
Yeah, so it's not for everyone, I thinkthe point I'm making though, Annie, is
(14:50):
not to think, "Right, I'm going to seethis museum, and then I'm going to see
that walk, and then I'm going to do thisrestaurant, and then I'm going to do
this," it's just keep it very simple.
But know where you want to go.
Yeah, you will always find somewhereto eat along the way if you're hungry.
Now, if it's super-duper rural, like inmy village, where there's under 3,000
people in my village, if you don't eatwhen the one restaurant is open, well,
(15:14):
you're not going to eat because there'sno grocery store, you know, you have
to kind of be aware that there areplaces where your choices are limited.
But most places, you'll find something.
And that's really relevantbecause I stayed in towns.
I didn't stay in small villages becauseI was reliant on public transport.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Tiny villages, you reallyneed your own wheels.
(15:35):
You need a bicycle at least,you know, so you can get around.
Did you find that there were safetyconcerns any, you know, because
if you're walking for six hoursduring the day, did you sometimes
run into places where you go, "Oh,I'm not so sure about this place"?
No.
No.
No, I mean, I traveled on my own inplaces like India and elsewhere, and
(15:56):
it's... I don't take silly risks.
I really don't.
So in Nice, for example, no, I mean,I was staying in very safe cities.
And I don't go out lateat night, that's just me.
But I just, yeah, I mean, one ofthose things though with the walking
is I'm a huge fan of voice tours.
So that was, again, part of the planning.
And when I was in Paris, yourvoice tours are absolutely amazing.
(16:22):
Well, thank you, Helena.
I've done all of them andjust love revisiting them.
Some of them I checked, part of mypreparation listening to podcasts was in
particular Join Us in France, searchingfor the towns where I was going to
stay, and seeing what episodes relatedto those places, or the interviews.
And through that I came across JeanieOliver's voice tours in Nice...
(16:47):
Yes.
... both of hers, and that'sreally interesting.
And obviously, Elyse's tour for Toulouse.
For Toulouse, yeah.
And there were two more for Bordeaux.
I can't remember the name of the person.
They didn't come throughJoin Us in France.
To be honest, they weren't,you know, the outstanding ones.
Your Paris ones were the outstanding ones.
(17:09):
But when I was in Paris, thetime that I planned in Paris was
actually around your voice tour,in this case of, is it Les Halles?
I always...
Les Halles.
Les Halles.
You don't s- yeah.
I always mispronounce that one.
No liaison on that one.
I loved that tour.
I really loved it.
Thank you.
Because you can think you know a placereasonably well, but often with the voice
(17:30):
tour, when it's done well, the person willtake you to places that you may not have
noticed and tell you background stories.
And you can stop and startas much as you want to.
And if it's raining, youjust go and sit in a café.
And it's so much cheaper than doingone of the, you know, guided tours
that often aren't done very well.
A lot of the ones that you mentionedhere are all on the VoiceMap app.
(17:51):
And any town in France you go to, they'veactually... VoiceMap is asking me if
I would write tours for other cities.
Apparently, there's a ton ofpeople searching for a tour
of Lourdes and Bergerac.
Yeah.
And I'm like, "Okay, I'm not too far fromeither one of these cities. I guess I
could." It wouldn't have occurred to me,but people do search for these VoiceMap
(18:14):
tours because they enhance your visit.
Like, somebody has done the research.
Somebody can take you to the right places.
Somebody can tell you the stories, andthe history, the La Grande Histoire et
la petite histoire, as we say in French.
You know, you have History with a bigH, big events, and then you have the
little histories that make it fun.
(18:38):
So, and another one I'll just tell peoplebecause I often see questions about
this, in Paris, as I said, I did Les...Oh, I'm going to say it wrongly again.
Les Halles?
Les Halles.
Oh, always get that one wrong.
Les Halles.
Just pretend there's no H. Les Halles.
That's my problem.
Les Halles.
But I also, I was staying very closeto Père Lachaise Cemetery, and I
(18:59):
wanted to see Édith Piaf's grave again.
And, there's a really good one, it's free.
It's on Rick Steves' app.
And he does a tour of PèreLachaise Cemetery, and that was
really useful for finding thegraves that people wanted to see.
And some that you're probably not,or most of us aren't aware are there.
That was a really, reallyworthwhile one to do.
Very cool.
(19:20):
Yes, Rick Steves has several freetours, that are also quite good.
I've walked some, andthey were fine, you know?
And there are other companiesthat also do voice tours.
If you just do a search for "Audiotour of XYZ place," you will find
different companies that provide these.
Another thing I found that I needed to do,so, I started in Nice because, obviously
(19:43):
because of the number of artists wholived and worked there in the museums.
Check in advance whether themuseums are actually open.
I was fine because the Chagall Museumwas the one that I really wanted to see.
But I think there were three othersthat were actually closed at the
time that I was there, which isfine because there's so much to see.
But that thing of checking in advance,especially because the number of
(20:05):
public holidays or swappovers ofexhibitions is really important.
Exactly.
That's one of the few reasons whyit's good sometimes to try to buy your
ticket in advance, is because at leastyou'll visit the website and if you
try to buy a ticket and there isn'tany available, you might wonder, "Oh,
why?" It's a good thing to check.
(20:25):
So in Nice, the first day I walkedup to the monastery, I stayed in
a wonderful, wonderful hostel andlots of people said to me, "Are you
staying in the hostels in..." andthis was in a mixed dorm, right?
And it was full.
And it was fabulous because it was inan old church, an old chapel, and the
(20:48):
couple, they run it extremely well.
I think it's called La Maïoun Guesthouse.
It's right in the old city and they'vetraveled widely and they basically have
taken their ideas from what they'veexperienced and what they would hope for.
So there's a real emphasis on peaceand quiet and very clear guidelines
(21:08):
and everyone sticks to them, andbeautiful breakfast in the morning.
And I got to meet some really interestingpeople, but I could still go off and do
my own thing, which is what I like doing.
I went to the Monastèrede Cimiez, which is
a beautiful, beautiful eco-garden and thenyou can walk down the hill to the Chagall
Museum, which is really worth visiting.
(21:29):
Just stunning.
And then from there, I could walkto the Russian Orthodox Church
in Nice, and I mean, Nice isso rich in history, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's a beautiful city.
It's a lovely city.
And it's well worth spending, youcan easily fill five days in Nice.
You could easily fill10 days in Nice, really.
(21:50):
There's a lot to do.
And I should mention that you sent mesome very detailed notes of your trip, so
there will be a page called Guest Notes.
So if you go to the episode page forthis episode and then click on the Guest
Notes, you'll see everything she sent me.
I mean, you had notes aboutcheck-in hours for the specific
hostel and things like that.
(22:10):
Or how long it would takeyou to walk somewhere...
Oh, that's part of my planning beforehand.
I look at how I'm going to getfrom the station to the place.
I know lots of people take Ubersand that's fine, but I just
tend not to, that's just me.
I love being able to usea bus or else to walk.
But yeah, I do that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And in France, Bolt isalso a good possibility.
(22:31):
You know, I'm trying to getaway from Uber, if I have
to I call a Bolt or a taxi.
And you, I assume you traveled light?
I always travel very light.
Yeah.
So that I can walk and I nowuse, being older, look I've
had this for donkey's years.
I think I've probably had it for 20 years.
It's an Osprey wheeled backpack.
(22:52):
A small one, but it has an attached daypack that can come off and it's light
enough and small enough that I can pullit along or I can wear it as a backpack
or I can put away the backpack strapsand just carry it like a suitcase.
And most important, and thisis really important if anyone's
traveling by train, there is verylimited luggage space on trains.
(23:14):
So although there are the racksby the doors, and they would
fill up absolutely immediately.
And I don't know that I felt comfortable,would feel comfortable putting
a suitcase there anyway, but theOsprey backpack actually fits in the
narrow luggage rack above your seat.
Wow.
That's nice.
The whole backpack fits up there?
Yeah.
(23:34):
I took off the day pack andthen it was narrow enough to
fit up on the luggage rack.
Wow.
Wow.
I never had any problems withsecurity, and you do the obvious
things like keeping your eyes on it...
Right.
I mean, trains are safe.
Yeah, I haven't heard of thefton the train, but you're right.
Common sense.
Yeah.
It just takes one thief, right?
(23:56):
Yeah.
I just saw some people with very bigsuitcases and I just thought, "Why are
you making life difficult for yourself?"
Yeah, because if you're absolutelyneeding something, you can always get one.
Yeah.
I mean, France is very well-equipped.
Yeah.
If you're unsure about, "Should Ibring this or not?" My answer is
probably don't because if you really,really need it, you'll get it there.
(24:18):
So some of the places I managed togo, and a lot of it was you know,
jumping on buses or walking orgetting advice from other people.
So, Porte de Vanse and theFondation Maet... Is it Maet?
I'm not sure how they say that.
It's not a French word.
Everyone should go there.
Wonderful, wonderful collection of art.
And also a collection ofart books, so from different
(24:39):
artists like Matisse and others.
Absolutely stunning.
And then from there, you can walk alonga path, which is along a kind of ridge
to Cagnes-sur-Mer, where there's theMusee Renoir, where he used to live.
And as you walk along this path, andmost people seem to be taking buses or
(24:59):
driving, rather than doing this walk.
You come to locations where Renoir andothers have done paintings and there are
copies of those paintings in position, soyou can see what the artist was seeing.
It was just stunning walk.
Wonderful.
Then Musee Renoir, I think wasprobably one of my favorite places.
A lot of people I know, forgood reason, go to Giverny.
(25:21):
And I would say do the two, if you can.
Yeah.
So also do the MuséeRenoir in Cagnes-sur-Mer.
Yeah, absolutely.
Especially, you know, to sit wherehis studio is and see the olive groves
that, whom I painted, and film clipsof one in particular of an elderly lady
talking, and she was one of his favoritemodels when she was a child growing up.
(25:43):
And she's just describing thefamily life and atmosphere.
Really beautiful.
Wonderful.
Somewhere I didn't like,but again, this is me.
Yeah.
Is people talked a lot... Oh, right,if you're going to go to Nice,
you've got to go to, is it Eze?
Eze, yes.
Eze, and the Jardin Exotique,the exotic gardens there.
(26:04):
Yes.
I personally found Ezewas a disappointment.
There were so many tourists.
The hostel owner told me thatapparently it's only recently that
there's been a car park put in.
Yes.
Such that the coaches can go there.
And that since then you get verylarge groups occasionally going there
(26:25):
when cruise ships are coming through.
And there were just so manyinfluencers taking photos.
It was so irritating.
Wow.
Yeah.
But from there,
if you do go there, there's awalk that you can take down from
Eze, and you go down the Cheminde Nietzsche, along the mountain.
And I think that was one of the, myfavorite experiences in the whole month.
(26:48):
It was just stunning scenery.
Very peaceful.
Did you... Oh, did youhave walking sticks?
No.
I kept thinking it.
"If they would see me now, they're goingto be so angry." I fell over twice.
Don't worry.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Walking sticks would be good.
For me, if I was going to do that,I, this last time I was in the US,
(27:11):
I... Okay, this is... this is so me.
I was at Costco and I saw somewalking sticks that look short
enough to put in a carry-on suitcase,and I bought them and they do fit.
And I'm never going anywherewithout those walking sticks.
If I know I'm going to take walks,I mean, if I'm going to Paris, I'm
not going to use walking sticks inParis, but other places, you know,
(27:34):
always have them just in case.
Oh, great.
Oh, just one.
Yeah.
This path is where Nietzscheactually wrote or was
inspired to write Zarathustra.
And then you get down the bottomand the train station is there.
It's really interesting what you say aboutEze, because I have been to Eze but not
since they opened this parking garagecalled the Parking Charles de Gaulle.
(27:55):
Which goes under the plaza, andI'm sure, because that was the
major problem in Eze, was parking.
And now that they have a parkinggarage, yeah, I'm sure it has
quadrupled the number of visitors.
And a lot of visitors who I don't thinkrealize how difficult it is to walk in
Eze, because it's steep and rocky, andthey expect quaint little shops and so
(28:19):
on, and they were just really struggling.
There are so manybeautiful places to go to.
Yeah.
Mont Saint-Michel is about likethat as well, you know, people
underestimate, especially the after 50crowd, it's cobblestone, it's steep.
It can be slippery.
But where I would recommend, and youcan do this from Nice easily, I took a
(28:40):
bus out to the Saint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat,and I bet I haven't pronounced that
properly, the Rothschild Villa.
Yes.
And that is extraordinarily beautiful,also with very, very beautiful gardens.
And that I'd say is far easier forpeople with any kind of mobility.
Yes, it's flatter.
(29:01):
I mean, you take the train and then youhave to walk a little bit, but it's not
a super long walk or a difficult walk.
No, I took the bus.
You take the bus and itstops almost outside.
Oh, there you go.
You take a bus afterwards.
Okay.
Even easier.
And then from there you cantake the bus onto Menton, which
is just gorgeous, absolutely.
Okay.
So you didn't take a train at all toSaint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat, you took the bus?
(29:22):
No, I took the bus.
Yeah.
Ah, huh.
So the hostel where I stayed hadall the timetables and things
like that, but you can find thatinformation quite easily online.
And it's really easy.
Oh, sorry, another thing that Ibought while I was in Nice, and
we're only on Nice at the moment,it was the, oh, what's it called?
Oh, it's a card.
Like the day pass for the transportation?
(29:43):
No, it's not a day pass, it wasa five-day pass, whatever it's
called, it's in the notes anyway.
Yeah, it's in the notes.
I'll see if I can find it.
I had two things that I could have bought.
I decided not to buy the expensive onethat I think was aimed more at tourists.
I bought a local one and thatwas, it was just a tap on, tap
off a lot of the time with it.
SudAzur Pass.
(30:04):
That's it.
And you said it was onrecommendation from Lachlan Cooke?
There you go.
I did.
Hello, Lachlan.
We listened.
There you go.
Yeah.
We listened to you.
Uh-huh.
We followed your recommendation.
Yes.
Yeah.
Very good.
Briefly, side track here, how did youpick the hostels where you were staying?
(30:25):
So one thing that I do when, as partof the preparation, is before I go to a
town, I'll just put in a Google search...not a Google search, but a search on
Facebook.... with the name of that town.
And then I'll put accommodation.
And you'd be surprised how manyposts come up under little Facebook
groups, which actually haverecommendations for different places.
(30:48):
And there is a site, and I can't rememberit now because I don't belong to it
anymore because I'm not there, but it wassomething about visiting Nice in Provence.
And somebody had asked a questionabout hostel accommodation.
This place was highly recommended, so thenI followed up and did a bit of research.
Ah-ha.
Ah-ha.
Or, I mean, look, I've got the booking.comapp, and I did a lot through there.
(31:11):
But I basically, I'd come up with aplace and then I'd spent ... I mean,
I get quite obsessive about "hmm.""Shall, shall I do that?" Yeah.
And then I let it go,and go with the flow.
But using some of those groupsand just looking at what people
are saying is quite handy.
But recognizing what applies toindividuals, like, you know, I'm not
interested in expensive meals, forexample, so I wouldn't be looking
(31:35):
for where are the good places to eat.
Yeah.
It's like, "Oh, look there, where'sa good art gallery to go to?"
All right, let's talk about someof the other places you visited.
Well, then I went on to Bordeaux.
Oh, after Toulouse, where I metup with Elyse and said hello.
It was just lovely.
Yeah, I was away, Icouldn't join up with you.
(31:57):
No, I know.
That's alright.
See you soon, at the Bootcamp.
Then I went onto Bordeaux, and I thinkI said to you, it was real mourning
that I'd left this beautiful Toulousewith the pink buildings and arrived in
Bordeaux, and it's the white limestone.
And it was, "what?" I did acouple of VoiceMaps there,
(32:17):
and then my family turned up.
Maria and her wife, and gorgeous,gorgeous three-year-old granddaughter.
We went for a meal to this veganrestaurant, and I'm thinking, "Why are
we going to a vegan one? It's my sonwho's the strict vegan." And then my son
and his gorgeous girlfriend walked in.
They had flown in from Australia withouttelling me, and it was beautiful.
(32:41):
Oh, that's great.
Even if it's vegan, traveling inFrance, so what Savvas said to me
about how he found this place, becausehe had insisted we go there, was,
he uses an app called the Happy Cow.
Yeah.
And it's excellent for telling you wherevegan ... I'm not sure about vegetarian
places are, but certainly vegan.
(33:01):
And this place is calledMonkey Mood, in the town.
I cannot recommend it highly enough.
It was delicious food.
And I'm not vegan, I amvegetarian and it was beautiful.
It really was.
Yeah.
What's your son's name?
You mentioned him, butI didn't catch his name.
So their dad is Greek, and so he's Savvas.
Savvas.
S-A-V-V-A-S.
(33:23):
S-A-V-V-A-S?
I have never heard that name.
That's pretty.
My daughter is Maria.
Very nice.
I'll just mention on Bordeaux, a lovelytown to visit, city to visit is... once
I'd got used to leaving Toulouse, havinga three-year-old there, and this was
rainy weather, so people often think,"Oh, what can I do with a child?" So
(33:43):
this might be a good tip for people.
Her mums had brought herlittle scooter with her, right?
And the scooter has a strap on it,so when she's scooting along or
standing on the scooter, you holdthe strap so you've got control,
that she's not going to go careeringinto people or into the pavement.
It was ideal not having a pusher ora stroller to have to carry around.
(34:04):
She loved it because the pavements are sowide and, you know, she felt in control.
It was lovely.
And there is so much for children to do.
It was something that reallyimpressed me in France, is that
almost every museum that I wentinto has activities for children.
Hands-on activities like havingbuilding blocks, or coloring
things, or asking little questions.
(34:26):
And in Bordeaux, we visitedthe Musée de I'illusion, the,
you know, illusions thing.
All the family really, really loved that.
In the natural history, again, veryhands-on, really interesting, and there's
a whole section just aimed at little kids.
Another one that we visited on the Cap deGers was the, there's an exhibition with
(34:48):
dinosaurs, moving models of dinosaurs.
She absolutely loved it.
And their hands-on activitieslike big tubs of sand and
you could be an archeologist.
She was given a bucket and sometools and had to scrape away.
You had to find the bones underneathand then find out which dinosaur
they matched, all those things.
(35:09):
Or just in France, they have these lovelyjardins publics with the playground areas.
I was a bit worried about bringing athree-year-old there, and she probably
had a better time than anyone else.
She was very good at saying,"Bonjour" to everyone.
Yes.
And people love that.
Love a little kid who'sgregarious and says, "Bonjour,"
(35:30):
and smiles and looks happy.
It's true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, so once they'd gone,then I went onto La Rochelle.
Can't recommend that highly enough.
Absolutely lovely little town to stay in.
And I'm very old.
I'm sort of mindful, we haven't got muchtime, so I better not rave on forever.
From La Rochelle I did a tripto Île de Ré, which I found a
(35:52):
bit touristy, to be honest, butthe history is very, very rich.
It is.
Île de Ré and all of these islands aroundthere, some of the smaller ones not so
much because they're harder to get to.
But the ones that are easy toget to, I mean, Île de Ré has
a bridge for heaven's sakes.
You know?
Or your ride by bus.
Right, right.
So it's easy to get to, lots of people.
(36:13):
And you were there, I don't know if wementioned, but you were there in October,
you spent the month of October, I mean,it was still kind of shoulder season.
There were still people,but not as many as...
It was lovely.
It was really lovely.
Yeah, I think October's agood time to go to France.
This last October was rainy though,so it was rainier than normal.
(36:34):
Interesting.
Do you know, Annie, I look backand all I remember is sunshine
and no problems with weather.
When I looked back at my photos,I thought, oh, hang on a minute.
The day I was in Menton, that afternoon,it was actually monsoon type day,
and the same in Bordeaux, all thetime the family was there, most
of the time
(36:55):
it was raining.
But we just had such fun, it didn't... youknow, I don't remember it affecting us.
And Thea, my little granddaughter,she had a whale of a time because
she loved splashing in puddles.
That's great.
La Rochelle, there are a lot ofcovered passageways, so whether it's
too hot or too rainy, you actuallycan find cover very, very easily.
(37:20):
It's a beautiful town.
I mean, honestly, LaRochelle is a gorgeous city.
Oh, absolutely.
And again, lots for children,including a sandy beach.
And from there I went to Angerswhere the Apocalypse Tapestry is
that dates from... is it the 14thcentury it was commissioned, I think?
I don't remember that date,that detail, but yeah.
(37:41):
It's absolutely stunning.
It's not until you actually see it, theactual tapestry, that you realize what
an extraordinary achievement it is.
And then they also have a museumin an old hospital which is
Jean-Lurçat, I think his name is.
And he did, a kind of modern version ofthe Apocalypse Tapestry after World War
II, which includes the Hiroshima Man.
(38:02):
And that is so moving.
Really, really worth visiting.
And again, Angers, a beautiful city.
I mean, the modern section hasthis lovely shopping center
and all those kinds of things.
But it's just a lovelycity to walk around.
I would definitely like to go back.
It is, yeah.
And then Chartres, I was verylucky... Or, I mean, I knew
(38:23):
it was going to happen anyway.
I was there the last day that thelabyrinth, which is in the center of
the cathedral, was actually uncovered.
The chairs are moved back sothat you can walk the labyrinth.
And the idea of the labyrinth iskind of a meditation, a journey.
It's a bit like the journey of life,that you're walking towards and away
from the center, and you walk alone butyou keep bumping into other people as
(38:46):
they're walking in another direction.
It's a really beautiful experience.
So I got there the last day that thatwas possible, about the 26th of October.
Right.
And then spent quite a bit of time.
So, most cathedrals used to havea labyrinth because it was part of
the meditative kind of pilgrimage.
And a few have kept them, but evenif they kept them, you have to know
(39:09):
that there didn't used to be benchesor chairs in churches and cathedrals.
This is a new-ish development.
In the Middle Ages, people entered thecathedral and walked around the cathedral.
They deambulated, déambulatoireis what it is in French, and they
would just walk, and if the priestcame out to do Mass, they would stop
(39:34):
some of them, but not necessarily.
They would just keep walking.
It was just a very differentway of experiencing a church.
And the labyrinths, like you said,it's going to the center of your life
and then back out and then leaving.
You know?
It's entering life and exitinglife, is what it tries to signify.
(39:54):
It's beautiful.
It's a beautiful experience, yeah.
And next to the cathedral is Le Muséedu Vitrail, the Museum of stained glass.
And, I mean, one of the mostspecial things about Chartres
Cathedral are the windows.
Are they the most completelypreserved medieval...
I don't know about the most, Imean, the Sainte-Chapelle are
(40:15):
also extremely well-preserved.
I don't know of the most, but it...They are extremely well-preserved, yes.
Yes, they are.
And during the Second World War, they weretaken down as a way of looking after them.
And as lovely as they are in situin the cathedral, there's bits that
you can't really see very clearly.
But in Le Musée du Vitrail, you cango in there and they've got each of
(40:38):
the windows, copies of them, so youcan actually look close up at the
details, and they're just fascinating.
And then there are little films onhow stained glass is made, the whole
process, and then modern stained glass.
And I found a window that I recognizedfrom my hometown of Adelaide in Australia,
and I was almost in tears just, "Oh wow!"
(41:01):
That's great.
That's great.
Yeah, that's the difference betweentraveling as a, okay, check,
I went to Chartres Cathedral.
Check off to the next thing, andreally experiencing a place for
a few days, because if you stayfor three days, you have time to
go to the stained-glass museum.
(41:21):
And you have time to just waste a littletime on the beautiful little plazas
that they have, where you could havea drink or a glass of wine or a meal
or whatever you enjoy and, you know,just take it easy, enjoy the moment.
I had done a day trip to Chartres, oh,probably about five or six years ago, so
(41:41):
that was a day trip, and I used it well,but had not seen what I saw with staying,
I think I stayed three nights in Chartres.
And during, I don't know whetherit was just during October or
whether it goes longer, but alot of the towns had lumiere.
So it was Chartres en lumiere, and there'sa whole walking trail that you can do
(42:01):
to see the different buildings lit upand the bridges, and stories being told.
That was fascinating.
And I wouldn't have donethat had I done a day trip.
Right, you can't do thatif you just do a day trip.
And yeah, to do that, you have tostay a few nights, at least one night,
and you have to stay up until dark.
Or get back very late atnight, and I don't do that.
(42:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, we need to bring this to a close.
I'm sure you had many, many otherwonderful experiences, but I will remind
people that I will put your guest noteswith lots of details about where you
stayed and how you got around and thingslike that, because that's going to
save people a ton of time, or at leastinspire them to go spend some time.
(42:47):
Would you say ... I mean, I know whatyou're going to say, you're going to
say that it's part of the joy of lifeto travel and take your time, right?
I'm a, as I said, a huge believerin slow travel and encounter.
Oh, I didn't even tell you about Parc deSceaux, which is, you know, surprising
that I stayed in another hostel, studenthostel, at Fontenay-aux-Roses, just
(43:08):
outside the periphery but at the endof a metro line, for my last night.
And then discovered this placeParc de Sceaux, which is a
fantastic chateau and gardens.
Really recommend going there.
But when I was leaving Fontenay-aux-Roses,I was on the station platform, coming
up in the elevator, and it was atiny, tiny elevator, and there was
(43:31):
a mother with three small children.
She was wearing a hijab, and the childrenwere probably three, four, and five.
They were very close in age, very young.
And we all squashed in thistiny elevator together.
And the little girl looked up at me,and she gave this huge grin and then
she made a heart shape with her fingersand she looked at me through them.
(43:52):
And I laughed and replied to her inFrench, also in Australia when I'm
traveling, and I laughed and I replied toher in French and said, "Ah, the children
in Australia do that too." And I made thesign back to her and I said, "I'm from
Australia." And then the mother startedlaughing and she said, "Ah, we're all
traveling, aren't we?" And I thought,"Well, that really sums it up." I mean,
(44:14):
like, wherever you are, you're traveling.
You're traveling.
It's the gift of, you know, encounterand connection and being open.
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
Well, Helena, you are wonderful.
Keep traveling.
You are an inspiration.
I'm sure lots of people are going tosay, "You know, I need to take that
trip I've been hoping to take," because
...And do it their way.
(44:34):
Yeah, you do it your way.
Find out what interests you.
Right.
Right.
And don't let budget be a... I mean,you know, you can do this, most
nights you paid, what, €60 eurosper night or something like that?
And I didn't stay inthe ultra-cheap places.
I mean, you can do that, but I knewthat I, at 70, you know, I don't
(44:55):
want the party hostels, for example.
But yeah, it's just doing it in a way... Every place that I stayed and I wanted
... I looked for, "Can I make a cup of tea?"That's my big thing when I'm traveling.
Forget the glass of wine and a cupof coffee, give me the cup of tea.
Yeah.
No, that's true.
(45:16):
That's true.
You have to understand whatyour needs are, and you have to
make sure those needs are met.
That's true at any age.
But as we get older, it'seven more true, I think.
Thank you so much, Helena.
You have been a delight to talk to.
I can't wait to see youagain at the Bootcamp.
...So looking forward to Bootcamp.
And keep on traveling, my friend.
(45:37):
Definitely.
Definitely.
All right.
Merci beaucoup.
Merci.
Au revoir.
A bientot.
A bientot.
A bientot.
Again, I want to thank my patrons forgiving back and supporting the show.
Patrons get several exclusiverewards for doing that, you can
(45:59):
see them at patreon.com/joinus.
And a special shout-out this week tomy new Join Us in France champions,
Abigail Merlis, Stephanie Bradley, GinaLayte Liston, Lauren, and Mali Le Doux.
(46:21):
And thank you, Robbie, forupgrading to yearly, it's great
for me, but it's also good for youbecause you get two months off.
Thank you so much everyone.
Would you join them too?
You can do it for as little as $3 amonth, but if you can afford it, I would
love to have you pledge more so youcan have access to more of the rewards.
So go to patreon.com/joinus and tosupport Elyse, go to patreon.com/elysart.
(46:49):
Somebody left this review of oneof my VoiceMap tours this week.
Guess which one it was?
"A well-balanced tour with excellentinformation and guidance. Many steep
climbs were avoided, which meant we couldfocus on the sights. Another outstanding
and wonderful VoiceMap experience."
(47:11):
So can you guess what it was?
Well, it was Montmartre, ofcourse, the place with a lot
of hills and a lot of steps.
VoiceMap is like taking a private tourwith a human guide who lets you stop
whenever you want, picks up again atyour leisure, or even goes to a different
point on the map, and you cannot do thatwith a real tour guide, not even with me.
I'm not that open-mindedwhen it's in person.
(47:34):
Podcast listeners get a big discountfor buying these tours from my website,
and it's best for me as well becauseI get to keep more of what you pay
instead of giving it to Apple or Google.
And if you're planning a trip toFrance and want expert help, you can
hire me as your itinerary consultant.
I will improve your plan ifyou already have one or suggest
(47:54):
one if you're at a loss.
And you can book that atjoinusinfrance.com/boutique.
Let's talk about why I recommend youuse Decathlon Outdoor instead of Komoot.
Both are route planning apps forhiking, cycling, and running.
I've stopped recommending Komoot becauseI've stopped using it myself as I found
(48:16):
a better option, and let me explain why.
In March 2025, Komoot wasacquired by Bending Spoons.
This is the same tech company thatsnapped up Evernote and WeTransfer
and laid off massive teams.
I also used WeTransfer for a longtime and pretty much stopped doing
it as well because they made itunusable, I think on purpose.
(48:39):
Getting acquired by Bending Spoons is notgood news for any company, in my opinion.
The first thing they do is start chargingfor basic services that used to be
free, but that's not the worst of it.
About 85% of Komoot's staffwere let go, so the people who
built the platform are gone.
So I've switched to recommendingDecathlon Outdoor instead.
(49:01):
It's 100% free so far.
Over 70,000 hiking and cycling routes areavailable in France with offline maps,
audio and visual GPS guidance, altitudeprofiles, and a clean, easy interface.
Community reviews, expert verifiedtrails, and features like exit
(49:23):
alerts make it reliable and safe.
Decathlon is a large French company thatsells sports equipment all over Europe.
That's why they have a stronginterest in helping us find great
hikes and bike paths, et cetera.
It's owned by the Mulliezfamily, like they also own
Auchan and Leroy Merlin, and the
(49:45):
Leclerc family.
You've probably heard ofLeclerc grocery stores, right?
So a couple of the most wealthiestFrench families right there.
And anyway, I see it as a more sustainableoption that won't lose 85% of its staff
overnight, which makes Decathlon Outdoor abetter choice in my mind and in practice.
(50:06):
I don't have anything against companiesmaking money, obviously, but information
that's meant to entice the public toenjoy the outdoors and stay active
and has been shared freely by usersshould not be monetized forcefully.
It's like this podcast.
There are enough of you purchasingmy tours and services that I can
(50:27):
make a living without puttingthe podcast behind a paywall.
There's no need to be greedy, I think.
Let's talk about thePompidou Center in Paris.
It's closing its doors for five yearsto undergo massive asbestos removal and
renovation work scheduled until 2030.
(50:50):
That means everything inside,paintings, sculptures, archives,
even the library, has to move.
We're talking about 120,000 works of art.
Some will travel around France, andabroad so the public can see them.
Others are going into restorationbefore they settle into a new
(51:11):
long-term storage facility beingbuilt in Massy, just outside of Paris.
It's not just for the art collections, theBibliotheque Publique d'Information, which
is the most visited library in France,is also packing up and will relocate
temporarily to another part of the city.
(51:31):
Behind the scenes, this is anextraordinary logistical challenge.
How do you move fragile masterpiecesor monumental sculptures safely?
Specialized teams are alreadyat work carefully emptying the
permanent collection floorsand preparing the treasures of
the Pompidou for their journey.
(51:51):
For the next five years, the Pompidouitself will be quiet, but its art will
be more visible than ever, circulatingacross museums in France and around the
world until it returns home in 2030.
So if you see any of these piecessomewhere out there, please let me know.
I like to hear where they'vebeen because that's always an
(52:13):
exciting to find out about.
The Bayeux Tapestry Museumin Normandy is now closed.
It shut down its doors in September2025, on the 1st I think, for
major renovation work that willlast until about October 2027.
This doesn't mean the BayeuxTapestry will stay hidden.
(52:34):
For the first time thetapestry is going on loan.
Starting September 2026 through July2027, the British Museum in London
will host the full 70 meter embroidery.
In return, some of Britain'sfamed artifacts, including the
Sutton Hoo Treasures and the LewisChessmen, will travel to Normandy.
(52:58):
The move is stirring a debate,conservation experts warn
the tapestry is fragile.
It already has thousands of stains,holes, and tears, but French and
British museum authorities saycareful planning is underway.
Special transport crates, climatecontrol, shock absorbent systems,
(53:19):
all part of this preparation.
For history lovers, this is huge.
It's a rare moment.
The tapestry's history, its storyof the Norman Conquest in 1066 comes
alive outside of Bayeux, and itreminds us of how art, travel, and
heritage link countries across time.
(53:39):
And I'm glad to hear that it will returnto Bayeux indeed and not be sent to Paris.
Paris has forever asked for the tapestryto go in Paris, and I think that's
ridiculous because Paris doesn't getto keep all of the pretty things, okay?
We need some of themoutside of Paris as well.
(54:01):
My thanks to podcast editors Anneand Christian Cotovan, who produced
the transcripts and the audio.
Next week on the podcast, an episodeabout how to plan a memorable family
trip to France with Heather Addison.
There are a lot of things to consider.
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time, so
we can look around France together.
(54:22):
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent, andCopyright 2025 by AddictedToFrance.
It is released under a CreativeCommons attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.
This is Join Us in France, episode565, cinq cent soixante-cinq.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a conversationwith Helena Fedorec, who
celebrated turning 70 in style.
(00:39):
She traveled solo, she was incrediblysavvy and she did it all on a budget.
You'll hear her share her month-longadventure across France by train, bus,
and foot, uncovering hidden gems, art,gardens, and the joys of slow travel.
She went from Nice to Chartres.
(00:59):
You will discover how to exploreFrance affordably, connect with
locals, which she loves doing, andembrace the freedom of the open road.
There is inspiration for everytraveler in this chat with Helena,
who is a wonderful boot camperas well, so I know her in person.
She's an amazing human being.
This podcast is fueled bychocolatine, coffee, and the
(01:23):
generosity of listeners like you.
You book itinerary consults, take myVoiceMap tours, join the boot camp, hop in
my electric car for a day trip, or chip inon Patreon, and I'm so grateful for that.
Want to keep me going and skip the ads?
There's a link for that in theshow notes, and to look up any
(01:44):
of my products or services, go tojoinusinfrance.com/boutique, and merci.
Half of the tickets forBootcamp 2026 are already sold.
I'm surprised by this.
It's selling surprisinglyquickly this year.
If you'd like to find out moreabout this event, browse to
(02:05):
joinusinfrance.com/bootcamp2026.
But let me tell you quickly that thedates are October 3rd until 10th next
year, 2026, and you can join us inFrance for seven days of hanging out
with fellow Francophiles, visits ofwonderful sites around Toulouse and
Occitanie, and optional language classes.
(02:27):
If this is the first you've heard ofthe bootcamp and want to know more,
first of all, welcome to you, and youcan email me annie@joinusinfrance.com.
For the magazine part of the podcast,after my chat with Helena today, I'll
discuss why I've stopped recommendingKomoot, the route planning app for hiking,
cycling, and running, and switch torecommending Decathlon Outdoor instead.
(02:53):
I made the switch a few months ago,but since I release episodes several
months after I record them, youhaven't heard me talk about that
yet, and it's time to fix that.
I'll also talk about the closingof the Centre Pompidou in Paris.
It's closing for five years.
And the Bayeux Tapestry Museum isalso closed until October 2027.
(03:14):
The British Museum in London willdisplay the tapestry, and I'll
give you all the details in themagazine part of the podcast.
There's a website and a newsletterto go along with this podcast,
and you can go there when panningfor gold nuggets of information in
preparation for your trip to France.
And the newsletter is pretty goodtoo, joinusinfrance.com/newsletter
(03:37):
if you'd like to sign up.
Bonjour, Helena Sweeney, andwelcome to Join Us in France.
Bonjour, Annie.
Wonderful to see you again,because we know each other
from the boot camp, don't we?
We do, indeed.
(03:58):
Yes.
And you're coming back to the boot camp.
I am.
I had such a wonderful time.
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
But today, we are going to talkabout a solo trip that you took.
You were turning 70, and you decidedyou wanted to make it a budget trip.
So we're going to concentrate onthat, on your preparation, on how you
(04:19):
found your budget options, and alsowhat were your favorite things to do.
You went off the beaten track a littlebit on this trip, which is wonderful.
So, Helena, tell us about yourpreparation for this trip.
How did you go about...Well, what inspired it and
how did you prepare for it?
Okay.
So, turning 70 was coming up,and I really dislike parties
(04:41):
and fuss made in gatherings.
So I said to my family, " Pleasedon't plan anything.
I'm going to go away.
In fact, I'm going to go away for awhole month, and I'm going to go to
France, and I'm just going to do itby train or by bus or by walking, and
just take it very simply and slowly."And in a sense, just celebrating the
(05:02):
fact that, you know, I'm still here, Ican do all these things, and enjoy it.
Now, I need to say that my familythen promptly decided that they
would turn up halfway through.
So there were three days when theywere actually with me, with their
three-year-old granddaughter.
And my lovely son cameover from Australia.
Complete surprise.
(05:23):
Wow.
Most of the trip was by myself, butI can actually also tell you a little
bit about what it was like beingin France with a three-year-old.
Very good.
Yes.
And we should say that youare from Australia but you
live in England right now.
That's right.
Yeah.
You can probably hear a mixed... I livedin Australia for 45 years and then about
(05:45):
four years ago, returned to England,which is, that gives me access to France.
Yeah.
All right.
So how did you plan this trip?
What tips can you share withlisteners about how to go about that?
Yeah.
So I'm not one of those people wholikes to plan every single minute
of every day and make huge plans.
(06:05):
But what I do do is look atif you like, a big picture.
And beforehand, I knew that I wantedto travel as much as possible, but
keep it manageable financially.
And one of the most usefulbooks I used was Europe by Rail.
And that could show me someroutes that are available on
the main train lines in France.
(06:26):
I decided against buses because often thetravel times were too long, whereas the
trains seem really efficient in Europe.
So I planned a route, and Ithink I mentioned it to you and
you gave me some ideas too, thatwould take me in a big circle.
So I knew I was going togo to France by Eurostar.
If you book long enough in advancefrom England, you can get to
(06:47):
Paris for 39 pounds one way.
So I had both going and comingback at a very cheap rate.
So I knew my starting and finishingpoint would be Paris, and then I planned
a route that took me from Paris toNice, from Nice to Toulouse, could
not miss out on Toulouse after beingthere for the boot camp, gorgeous city.
(07:08):
Then to Bordeaux, then to La Rochelleand Angers, that was your suggestion.
And then from there I went up toChartres, I'd been there before,
and then returned through to Paris.
Wonderful.
So, when you said you bookedyour Eurostar in advance, how
far in advance did you do it?
I think I did it... They releasedthe dates about, I think it's between
(07:30):
three and six months in advance, Ithink it's three months in advance.
You can actually download the Eurostarapp and subscribe, and that way
you get notifications of when thecheap tickets are coming through.
So they often have flash sales thatlast for three days or something.
Uh-huh.
It's actually really worth justfollowing it regularly and that includes
(07:53):
trains not just to Paris but alsoto Lille, to Belgium, and Amsterdam.
Very nice.
Did you purchase a discount card?
Yes.
So again, part of traveling by rail,because obviously I'm over 60, I
learned about the SNCF senior rail card.
And I forget how much it was, itwasn't that expensive actually, it was
(08:15):
under 50 pounds, way under 50 pounds.
And you get a third off rail travel.
And it was really useful.
So again, there's an app thatyou download on your phone.
And there were a few times, whenI was traveling, especially around
the Nice area, that I would, on thespur of the moment, decide to take
a train and I could book it on myphone, and I also got the discount.
(08:37):
And the long journeys I got the discount.
That was really worth doing.
Right, and this card, I think the fullprice is 69 euros, but the senior card
goes on sale as well occasionally.
I think I got it on sale.
There's discount cards for differentage groups, but every time you
have to buy it and it's worth it.
(08:58):
If you just take a couple of traintrips, it's usually worth it.
Especially if you can buyit at the discount price.
Totally agree.
Yeah.
And I assume you booked most ofyour tickets through the app?
Did you use SNCF Connector did you use another app?
Okay.
The major travel, gettingfrom city to city, I bought in
advance and booked in advance.
(09:18):
And I used, good question, no, Iused the SNCF app.... but I actually
also have the Trainline app.
There were a couple of times when I madespontaneous trips, like, you know, short
trips to a little town or whatever,when I would actually it was easier
to book on the spot with Trainline.
Yeah, and it just depended whichtrains I was going to be taking.
(09:40):
If that sounds vague, and it probably doessound vague, it's because at the time I'd
work out, "Okay, what's the best one todo now, given the time that I've got?"
Right.
Right.
Yeah, and Trainline and SNCF app, SNCFConnect work well together because
once you have booked a ticket, youhave a ticket number and you can
import it from one to the other.
(10:01):
With the SNCF app, you can also put yourticket on your Apple Watch if you want to.
So, you know, these arepretty nifty applications.
I learned today, I hadn't realized this,maybe it's new, that you can also buy
your metro tickets on the SNCF app.
It's a pretty good app.
I run my phone in English, so itdownloaded the app in English, and so
(10:25):
there's no complications for peoplewho don't speak French, and you do,
but speaking of that, was it necessaryfor you to have some level of French
seeing that you were not always insuper touristy parts of the country?
Okay.
So, was it necessary?
No.
So long as you've got, you really do needthose basic understandings of greetings.
(10:47):
You have to say bonjour to peopleand show respect and, yeah, have
a basic knowledge of the language.
I do now speak fairly good French,probably better than I spoke when
I was at the boot camp because I'vestarted a French café, so every
week we meet and speak French.
Bravo, bravo.
I think that was one of the greatadvantages for me, that although
(11:08):
I love traveling solo, I also liketalking to people that I meet.
And I got into some really interestingconversations when I was on a train
or sitting next to someone in a café,couple of times sitting in a garden
and there'd be someone working onthe garden and we'd start talking.
So, I think if people can workon their French before they go
(11:30):
to France, it really pays off.
One time in particular, the only time Ihad a problem with accommodation, most of
the time I stayed in hostels, and therewas one time when I stay, had a night in
a hotel, and that, my booking had beenstuffed up, and it was actually very
useful then to be able to speak French.
Yes.
Yes.
I should say that you area very sociable person.
(11:52):
You enjoy the company of other people,you enjoy talking to people, and
so it comes naturally to you, but Ithink it's worth making an effort to
chitchat with French people, if you can.
You know, it won't be life-changing, okay?
But it will be, it will make yourjourney more pleasant, that's for sure.
I often read on Facebook sites,people who feel very wary, and imagine
(12:16):
that every person who approachesthem is going to be a pickpocket.
And you do need to be sensible,would never doubt that, traveling
in any situation, but don't expectthe worst from people, you know?
Just smile.
Yeah, smile.
Be a real human being and try totalk to people, that's excellent.
Okay, so we know that you usethe SNCF and Trainline apps.
(12:37):
What else did you doto plan for this trip?
Okay.
So the way that I do it is, once Ihad my cities in place, and oh, one
thing with the budget is it's, I find,is you've got to think, "Where do I
want to spend my money?" So for somepeople, they would make eating out or
trying different wines or exploringdifferent shopping areas for example,
(12:59):
a priority, and that's really good.
For me, I knew that the things thatI really wanted to do were to see art
galleries, to see museums, and I dohave a thing about visiting gardens.
So that was another reason why theplaces that I went to, I actually
looked beforehand to what museumswere there or what gardens were there.
(13:20):
So with planning, I would alwaysplan at least three nights in
a location, and personally, Ithink five nights is worth it.
Even in a place that people say, "Oh,there's not much there," because,
I'm a huge fan of slow travel.
If you take time in a place and explore,you actually really get a, you get a feel
(13:41):
of how people have lived over years, whatare the particular aspects of each town,
and you discover some lovely little cafés.
I mean, my idea of luxury is cup of coffeeand a glass of wine, and the height of
luxury is a cheese platter to go with it.
So I had five nights in Nice,and then most of the others
were either four or three.
(14:02):
So what I would do on every day ispick out maybe two places that I
would want to see during that day.
I do an awful lot of walking.
I prefer not to use, not to base thingsaround having to do long journeys
on metros or something like that.
And quite often I would choose placesthat are maybe about two hours apart,
two hours on foot, because part ofwhat I enjoy doing is walking somewhere
(14:27):
and looking at the buildings, lookingat the gardens, all those things.
So that's a long walk.
I mean, you know, if you aregoing to walk two hours between
the venues you want to visit, andthen back to your accommodations,
what, you were walking for six...
Yeah.
I quite often do that though.
I'll set off early in the morning.
Yeah, so it's not for everyone, I thinkthe point I'm making though, Annie, is
(14:50):
not to think, "Right, I'm going to seethis museum, and then I'm going to see
that walk, and then I'm going to do thisrestaurant, and then I'm going to do
this," it's just keep it very simple.
But know where you want to go.
Yeah, you will always find somewhereto eat along the way if you're hungry.
Now, if it's super-duper rural, like inmy village, where there's under 3,000
people in my village, if you don't eatwhen the one restaurant is open, well,
(15:14):
you're not going to eat because there'sno grocery store, you know, you have
to kind of be aware that there areplaces where your choices are limited.
But most places, you'll find something.
And that's really relevantbecause I stayed in towns.
I didn't stay in small villages becauseI was reliant on public transport.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Tiny villages, you reallyneed your own wheels.
(15:35):
You need a bicycle at least,you know, so you can get around.
Did you find that there were safetyconcerns any, you know, because
if you're walking for six hoursduring the day, did you sometimes
run into places where you go, "Oh,I'm not so sure about this place"?
No.
No.
No, I mean, I traveled on my own inplaces like India and elsewhere, and
(15:56):
it's... I don't take silly risks.
I really don't.
So in Nice, for example, no, I mean,I was staying in very safe cities.
And I don't go out lateat night, that's just me.
But I just, yeah, I mean, one ofthose things though with the walking
is I'm a huge fan of voice tours.
So that was, again, part of the planning.
And when I was in Paris, yourvoice tours are absolutely amazing.
(16:22):
Well, thank you, Helena.
I've done all of them andjust love revisiting them.
Some of them I checked, part of mypreparation listening to podcasts was in
particular Join Us in France, searchingfor the towns where I was going to
stay, and seeing what episodes relatedto those places, or the interviews.
And through that I came across JeanieOliver's voice tours in Nice...
(16:47):
Yes.
... both of hers, and that'sreally interesting.
And obviously, Elyse's tour for Toulouse.
For Toulouse, yeah.
And there were two more for Bordeaux.
I can't remember the name of the person.
They didn't come throughJoin Us in France.
To be honest, they weren't,you know, the outstanding ones.
Your Paris ones were the outstanding ones.
(17:09):
But when I was in Paris, thetime that I planned in Paris was
actually around your voice tour,in this case of, is it Les Halles?
I always...
Les Halles.
Les Halles.
You don't s- yeah.
I always mispronounce that one.
No liaison on that one.
I loved that tour.
I really loved it.
Thank you.
Because you can think you know a placereasonably well, but often with the voice
(17:30):
tour, when it's done well, the person willtake you to places that you may not have
noticed and tell you background stories.
And you can stop and startas much as you want to.
And if it's raining, youjust go and sit in a café.
And it's so much cheaper than doingone of the, you know, guided tours
that often aren't done very well.
A lot of the ones that you mentionedhere are all on the VoiceMap app.
(17:51):
And any town in France you go to, they'veactually... VoiceMap is asking me if
I would write tours for other cities.
Apparently, there's a ton ofpeople searching for a tour
of Lourdes and Bergerac.
Yeah.
And I'm like, "Okay, I'm not too far fromeither one of these cities. I guess I
could." It wouldn't have occurred to me,but people do search for these VoiceMap
(18:14):
tours because they enhance your visit.
Like, somebody has done the research.
Somebody can take you to the right places.
Somebody can tell you the stories, andthe history, the La Grande Histoire et
la petite histoire, as we say in French.
You know, you have History with a bigH, big events, and then you have the
little histories that make it fun.
(18:38):
So, and another one I'll just tell peoplebecause I often see questions about
this, in Paris, as I said, I did Les...Oh, I'm going to say it wrongly again.
Les Halles?
Les Halles.
Oh, always get that one wrong.
Les Halles.
Just pretend there's no H. Les Halles.
That's my problem.
Les Halles.
But I also, I was staying very closeto Père Lachaise Cemetery, and I
(18:59):
wanted to see Édith Piaf's grave again.
And, there's a really good one, it's free.
It's on Rick Steves' app.
And he does a tour of PèreLachaise Cemetery, and that was
really useful for finding thegraves that people wanted to see.
And some that you're probably not,or most of us aren't aware are there.
That was a really, reallyworthwhile one to do.
Very cool.
(19:20):
Yes, Rick Steves has several freetours, that are also quite good.
I've walked some, andthey were fine, you know?
And there are other companiesthat also do voice tours.
If you just do a search for "Audiotour of XYZ place," you will find
different companies that provide these.
Another thing I found that I needed to do,so, I started in Nice because, obviously
(19:43):
because of the number of artists wholived and worked there in the museums.
Check in advance whether themuseums are actually open.
I was fine because the Chagall Museumwas the one that I really wanted to see.
But I think there were three othersthat were actually closed at the
time that I was there, which isfine because there's so much to see.
But that thing of checking in advance,especially because the number of
(20:05):
public holidays or swappovers ofexhibitions is really important.
Exactly.
That's one of the few reasons whyit's good sometimes to try to buy your
ticket in advance, is because at leastyou'll visit the website and if you
try to buy a ticket and there isn'tany available, you might wonder, "Oh,
why?" It's a good thing to check.
(20:25):
So in Nice, the first day I walkedup to the monastery, I stayed in
a wonderful, wonderful hostel andlots of people said to me, "Are you
staying in the hostels in..." andthis was in a mixed dorm, right?
And it was full.
And it was fabulous because it was inan old church, an old chapel, and the
(20:48):
couple, they run it extremely well.
I think it's called La Maïoun Guesthouse.
It's right in the old city and they'vetraveled widely and they basically have
taken their ideas from what they'veexperienced and what they would hope for.
So there's a real emphasis on peaceand quiet and very clear guidelines
(21:08):
and everyone sticks to them, andbeautiful breakfast in the morning.
And I got to meet some really interestingpeople, but I could still go off and do
my own thing, which is what I like doing.
I went to the Monastèrede Cimiez, which is
a beautiful, beautiful eco-garden and thenyou can walk down the hill to the Chagall
Museum, which is really worth visiting.
(21:29):
Just stunning.
And then from there, I could walkto the Russian Orthodox Church
in Nice, and I mean, Nice isso rich in history, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's a beautiful city.
It's a lovely city.
And it's well worth spending, youcan easily fill five days in Nice.
You could easily fill10 days in Nice, really.
(21:50):
There's a lot to do.
And I should mention that you sent mesome very detailed notes of your trip, so
there will be a page called Guest Notes.
So if you go to the episode page forthis episode and then click on the Guest
Notes, you'll see everything she sent me.
I mean, you had notes aboutcheck-in hours for the specific
hostel and things like that.
(22:10):
Or how long it would takeyou to walk somewhere...
Oh, that's part of my planning beforehand.
I look at how I'm going to getfrom the station to the place.
I know lots of people take Ubersand that's fine, but I just
tend not to, that's just me.
I love being able to usea bus or else to walk.
But yeah, I do that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And in France, Bolt isalso a good possibility.
(22:31):
You know, I'm trying to getaway from Uber, if I have
to I call a Bolt or a taxi.
And you, I assume you traveled light?
I always travel very light.
Yeah.
So that I can walk and I nowuse, being older, look I've
had this for donkey's years.
I think I've probably had it for 20 years.
It's an Osprey wheeled backpack.
(22:52):
A small one, but it has an attached daypack that can come off and it's light
enough and small enough that I can pullit along or I can wear it as a backpack
or I can put away the backpack strapsand just carry it like a suitcase.
And most important, and thisis really important if anyone's
traveling by train, there is verylimited luggage space on trains.
(23:14):
So although there are the racksby the doors, and they would
fill up absolutely immediately.
And I don't know that I felt comfortable,would feel comfortable putting
a suitcase there anyway, but theOsprey backpack actually fits in the
narrow luggage rack above your seat.
Wow.
That's nice.
The whole backpack fits up there?
Yeah.
(23:34):
I took off the day pack andthen it was narrow enough to
fit up on the luggage rack.
Wow.
Wow.
I never had any problems withsecurity, and you do the obvious
things like keeping your eyes on it...
Right.
I mean, trains are safe.
Yeah, I haven't heard of thefton the train, but you're right.
Common sense.
Yeah.
It just takes one thief, right?
(23:56):
Yeah.
I just saw some people with very bigsuitcases and I just thought, "Why are
you making life difficult for yourself?"
Yeah, because if you're absolutelyneeding something, you can always get one.
Yeah.
I mean, France is very well-equipped.
Yeah.
If you're unsure about, "Should Ibring this or not?" My answer is
probably don't because if you really,really need it, you'll get it there.
(24:18):
So some of the places I managed togo, and a lot of it was you know,
jumping on buses or walking orgetting advice from other people.
So, Porte de Vanse and theFondation Maet... Is it Maet?
I'm not sure how they say that.
It's not a French word.
Everyone should go there.
Wonderful, wonderful collection of art.
And also a collection ofart books, so from different
(24:39):
artists like Matisse and others.
Absolutely stunning.
And then from there, you can walk alonga path, which is along a kind of ridge
to Cagnes-sur-Mer, where there's theMusee Renoir, where he used to live.
And as you walk along this path, andmost people seem to be taking buses or
(24:59):
driving, rather than doing this walk.
You come to locations where Renoir andothers have done paintings and there are
copies of those paintings in position, soyou can see what the artist was seeing.
It was just stunning walk.
Wonderful.
Then Musee Renoir, I think wasprobably one of my favorite places.
A lot of people I know, forgood reason, go to Giverny.
(25:21):
And I would say do the two, if you can.
Yeah.
So also do the MuséeRenoir in Cagnes-sur-Mer.
Yeah, absolutely.
Especially, you know, to sit wherehis studio is and see the olive groves
that, whom I painted, and film clipsof one in particular of an elderly lady
talking, and she was one of his favoritemodels when she was a child growing up.
(25:43):
And she's just describing thefamily life and atmosphere.
Really beautiful.
Wonderful.
Somewhere I didn't like,but again, this is me.
Yeah.
Is people talked a lot... Oh, right,if you're going to go to Nice,
you've got to go to, is it Eze?
Eze, yes.
Eze, and the Jardin Exotique,the exotic gardens there.
(26:04):
Yes.
I personally found Ezewas a disappointment.
There were so many tourists.
The hostel owner told me thatapparently it's only recently that
there's been a car park put in.
Yes.
Such that the coaches can go there.
And that since then you get verylarge groups occasionally going there
(26:25):
when cruise ships are coming through.
And there were just so manyinfluencers taking photos.
It was so irritating.
Wow.
Yeah.
But from there,
if you do go there, there's awalk that you can take down from
Eze, and you go down the Cheminde Nietzsche, along the mountain.
And I think that was one of the, myfavorite experiences in the whole month.
(26:48):
It was just stunning scenery.
Very peaceful.
Did you... Oh, did youhave walking sticks?
No.
I kept thinking it.
"If they would see me now, they're goingto be so angry." I fell over twice.
Don't worry.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Walking sticks would be good.
For me, if I was going to do that,I, this last time I was in the US,
(27:11):
I... Okay, this is... this is so me.
I was at Costco and I saw somewalking sticks that look short
enough to put in a carry-on suitcase,and I bought them and they do fit.
And I'm never going anywherewithout those walking sticks.
If I know I'm going to take walks,I mean, if I'm going to Paris, I'm
not going to use walking sticks inParis, but other places, you know,
(27:34):
always have them just in case.
Oh, great.
Oh, just one.
Yeah.
This path is where Nietzscheactually wrote or was
inspired to write Zarathustra.
And then you get down the bottomand the train station is there.
It's really interesting what you say aboutEze, because I have been to Eze but not
since they opened this parking garagecalled the Parking Charles de Gaulle.
(27:55):
Which goes under the plaza, andI'm sure, because that was the
major problem in Eze, was parking.
And now that they have a parkinggarage, yeah, I'm sure it has
quadrupled the number of visitors.
And a lot of visitors who I don't thinkrealize how difficult it is to walk in
Eze, because it's steep and rocky, andthey expect quaint little shops and so
(28:19):
on, and they were just really struggling.
There are so manybeautiful places to go to.
Yeah.
Mont Saint-Michel is about likethat as well, you know, people
underestimate, especially the after 50crowd, it's cobblestone, it's steep.
It can be slippery.
But where I would recommend, and youcan do this from Nice easily, I took a
(28:40):
bus out to the Saint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat,and I bet I haven't pronounced that
properly, the Rothschild Villa.
Yes.
And that is extraordinarily beautiful,also with very, very beautiful gardens.
And that I'd say is far easier forpeople with any kind of mobility.
Yes, it's flatter.
(29:01):
I mean, you take the train and then youhave to walk a little bit, but it's not
a super long walk or a difficult walk.
No, I took the bus.
You take the bus and itstops almost outside.
Oh, there you go.
You take a bus afterwards.
Okay.
Even easier.
And then from there you cantake the bus onto Menton, which
is just gorgeous, absolutely.
Okay.
So you didn't take a train at all toSaint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat, you took the bus?
(29:22):
No, I took the bus.
Yeah.
Ah, huh.
So the hostel where I stayed hadall the timetables and things
like that, but you can find thatinformation quite easily online.
And it's really easy.
Oh, sorry, another thing that Ibought while I was in Nice, and
we're only on Nice at the moment,it was the, oh, what's it called?
Oh, it's a card.
Like the day pass for the transportation?
(29:43):
No, it's not a day pass, it wasa five-day pass, whatever it's
called, it's in the notes anyway.
Yeah, it's in the notes.
I'll see if I can find it.
I had two things that I could have bought.
I decided not to buy the expensive onethat I think was aimed more at tourists.
I bought a local one and thatwas, it was just a tap on, tap
off a lot of the time with it.
SudAzur Pass.
(30:04):
That's it.
And you said it was onrecommendation from Lachlan Cooke?
There you go.
I did.
Hello, Lachlan.
We listened.
There you go.
Yeah.
We listened to you.
Uh-huh.
We followed your recommendation.
Yes.
Yeah.
Very good.
Briefly, side track here, how did youpick the hostels where you were staying?
(30:25):
So one thing that I do when, as partof the preparation, is before I go to a
town, I'll just put in a Google search...not a Google search, but a search on
Facebook.... with the name of that town.
And then I'll put accommodation.
And you'd be surprised how manyposts come up under little Facebook
groups, which actually haverecommendations for different places.
(30:48):
And there is a site, and I can't rememberit now because I don't belong to it
anymore because I'm not there, but it wassomething about visiting Nice in Provence.
And somebody had asked a questionabout hostel accommodation.
This place was highly recommended, so thenI followed up and did a bit of research.
Ah-ha.
Ah-ha.
Or, I mean, look, I've got the booking.comapp, and I did a lot through there.
(31:11):
But I basically, I'd come up with aplace and then I'd spent ... I mean,
I get quite obsessive about "hmm.""Shall, shall I do that?" Yeah.
And then I let it go,and go with the flow.
But using some of those groupsand just looking at what people
are saying is quite handy.
But recognizing what applies toindividuals, like, you know, I'm not
interested in expensive meals, forexample, so I wouldn't be looking
(31:35):
for where are the good places to eat.
Yeah.
It's like, "Oh, look there, where'sa good art gallery to go to?"
All right, let's talk about someof the other places you visited.
Well, then I went on to Bordeaux.
Oh, after Toulouse, where I metup with Elyse and said hello.
It was just lovely.
Yeah, I was away, Icouldn't join up with you.
(31:57):
No, I know.
That's alright.
See you soon, at the Bootcamp.
Then I went onto Bordeaux, and I thinkI said to you, it was real mourning
that I'd left this beautiful Toulousewith the pink buildings and arrived in
Bordeaux, and it's the white limestone.
And it was, "what?" I did acouple of VoiceMaps there,
(32:17):
and then my family turned up.
Maria and her wife, and gorgeous,gorgeous three-year-old granddaughter.
We went for a meal to this veganrestaurant, and I'm thinking, "Why are
we going to a vegan one? It's my sonwho's the strict vegan." And then my son
and his gorgeous girlfriend walked in.
They had flown in from Australia withouttelling me, and it was beautiful.
(32:41):
Oh, that's great.
Even if it's vegan, traveling inFrance, so what Savvas said to me
about how he found this place, becausehe had insisted we go there, was,
he uses an app called the Happy Cow.
Yeah.
And it's excellent for telling you wherevegan ... I'm not sure about vegetarian
places are, but certainly vegan.
(33:01):
And this place is calledMonkey Mood, in the town.
I cannot recommend it highly enough.
It was delicious food.
And I'm not vegan, I amvegetarian and it was beautiful.
It really was.
Yeah.
What's your son's name?
You mentioned him, butI didn't catch his name.
So their dad is Greek, and so he's Savvas.
Savvas.
S-A-V-V-A-S.
(33:23):
S-A-V-V-A-S?
I have never heard that name.
That's pretty.
My daughter is Maria.
Very nice.
I'll just mention on Bordeaux, a lovelytown to visit, city to visit is... once
I'd got used to leaving Toulouse, havinga three-year-old there, and this was
rainy weather, so people often think,"Oh, what can I do with a child?" So
(33:43):
this might be a good tip for people.
Her mums had brought herlittle scooter with her, right?
And the scooter has a strap on it,so when she's scooting along or
standing on the scooter, you holdthe strap so you've got control,
that she's not going to go careeringinto people or into the pavement.
It was ideal not having a pusher ora stroller to have to carry around.
(34:04):
She loved it because the pavements are sowide and, you know, she felt in control.
It was lovely.
And there is so much for children to do.
It was something that reallyimpressed me in France, is that
almost every museum that I wentinto has activities for children.
Hands-on activities like havingbuilding blocks, or coloring
things, or asking little questions.
(34:26):
And in Bordeaux, we visitedthe Musée de I'illusion, the,
you know, illusions thing.
All the family really, really loved that.
In the natural history, again, veryhands-on, really interesting, and there's
a whole section just aimed at little kids.
Another one that we visited on the Cap deGers was the, there's an exhibition with
(34:48):
dinosaurs, moving models of dinosaurs.
She absolutely loved it.
And their hands-on activitieslike big tubs of sand and
you could be an archeologist.
She was given a bucket and sometools and had to scrape away.
You had to find the bones underneathand then find out which dinosaur
they matched, all those things.
(35:09):
Or just in France, they have these lovelyjardins publics with the playground areas.
I was a bit worried about bringing athree-year-old there, and she probably
had a better time than anyone else.
She was very good at saying,"Bonjour" to everyone.
Yes.
And people love that.
Love a little kid who'sgregarious and says, "Bonjour,"
(35:30):
and smiles and looks happy.
It's true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, so once they'd gone,then I went onto La Rochelle.
Can't recommend that highly enough.
Absolutely lovely little town to stay in.
And I'm very old.
I'm sort of mindful, we haven't got muchtime, so I better not rave on forever.
From La Rochelle I did a tripto Île de Ré, which I found a
(35:52):
bit touristy, to be honest, butthe history is very, very rich.
It is.
Île de Ré and all of these islands aroundthere, some of the smaller ones not so
much because they're harder to get to.
But the ones that are easy toget to, I mean, Île de Ré has
a bridge for heaven's sakes.
You know?
Or your ride by bus.
Right, right.
So it's easy to get to, lots of people.
(36:13):
And you were there, I don't know if wementioned, but you were there in October,
you spent the month of October, I mean,it was still kind of shoulder season.
There were still people,but not as many as...
It was lovely.
It was really lovely.
Yeah, I think October's agood time to go to France.
This last October was rainy though,so it was rainier than normal.
(36:34):
Interesting.
Do you know, Annie, I look backand all I remember is sunshine
and no problems with weather.
When I looked back at my photos,I thought, oh, hang on a minute.
The day I was in Menton, that afternoon,it was actually monsoon type day,
and the same in Bordeaux, all thetime the family was there, most
of the time
(36:55):
it was raining.
But we just had such fun, it didn't... youknow, I don't remember it affecting us.
And Thea, my little granddaughter,she had a whale of a time because
she loved splashing in puddles.
That's great.
La Rochelle, there are a lot ofcovered passageways, so whether it's
too hot or too rainy, you actuallycan find cover very, very easily.
(37:20):
It's a beautiful town.
I mean, honestly, LaRochelle is a gorgeous city.
Oh, absolutely.
And again, lots for children,including a sandy beach.
And from there I went to Angerswhere the Apocalypse Tapestry is
that dates from... is it the 14thcentury it was commissioned, I think?
I don't remember that date,that detail, but yeah.
(37:41):
It's absolutely stunning.
It's not until you actually see it, theactual tapestry, that you realize what
an extraordinary achievement it is.
And then they also have a museumin an old hospital which is
Jean-Lurçat, I think his name is.
And he did, a kind of modern version ofthe Apocalypse Tapestry after World War
II, which includes the Hiroshima Man.
(38:02):
And that is so moving.
Really, really worth visiting.
And again, Angers, a beautiful city.
I mean, the modern section hasthis lovely shopping center
and all those kinds of things.
But it's just a lovelycity to walk around.
I would definitely like to go back.
It is, yeah.
And then Chartres, I was verylucky... Or, I mean, I knew
(38:23):
it was going to happen anyway.
I was there the last day that thelabyrinth, which is in the center of
the cathedral, was actually uncovered.
The chairs are moved back sothat you can walk the labyrinth.
And the idea of the labyrinth iskind of a meditation, a journey.
It's a bit like the journey of life,that you're walking towards and away
from the center, and you walk alone butyou keep bumping into other people as
(38:46):
they're walking in another direction.
It's a really beautiful experience.
So I got there the last day that thatwas possible, about the 26th of October.
Right.
And then spent quite a bit of time.
So, most cathedrals used to havea labyrinth because it was part of
the meditative kind of pilgrimage.
And a few have kept them, but evenif they kept them, you have to know
(39:09):
that there didn't used to be benchesor chairs in churches and cathedrals.
This is a new-ish development.
In the Middle Ages, people entered thecathedral and walked around the cathedral.
They deambulated, déambulatoireis what it is in French, and they
would just walk, and if the priestcame out to do Mass, they would stop
(39:34):
some of them, but not necessarily.
They would just keep walking.
It was just a very differentway of experiencing a church.
And the labyrinths, like you said,it's going to the center of your life
and then back out and then leaving.
You know?
It's entering life and exitinglife, is what it tries to signify.
(39:54):
It's beautiful.
It's a beautiful experience, yeah.
And next to the cathedral is Le Muséedu Vitrail, the Museum of stained glass.
And, I mean, one of the mostspecial things about Chartres
Cathedral are the windows.
Are they the most completelypreserved medieval...
I don't know about the most, Imean, the Sainte-Chapelle are
(40:15):
also extremely well-preserved.
I don't know of the most, but it...They are extremely well-preserved, yes.
Yes, they are.
And during the Second World War, they weretaken down as a way of looking after them.
And as lovely as they are in situin the cathedral, there's bits that
you can't really see very clearly.
But in Le Musée du Vitrail, you cango in there and they've got each of
(40:38):
the windows, copies of them, so youcan actually look close up at the
details, and they're just fascinating.
And then there are little films onhow stained glass is made, the whole
process, and then modern stained glass.
And I found a window that I recognizedfrom my hometown of Adelaide in Australia,
and I was almost in tears just, "Oh wow!"
(41:01):
That's great.
That's great.
Yeah, that's the difference betweentraveling as a, okay, check,
I went to Chartres Cathedral.
Check off to the next thing, andreally experiencing a place for
a few days, because if you stayfor three days, you have time to
go to the stained-glass museum.
(41:21):
And you have time to just waste a littletime on the beautiful little plazas
that they have, where you could havea drink or a glass of wine or a meal
or whatever you enjoy and, you know,just take it easy, enjoy the moment.
I had done a day trip to Chartres, oh,probably about five or six years ago, so
(41:41):
that was a day trip, and I used it well,but had not seen what I saw with staying,
I think I stayed three nights in Chartres.
And during, I don't know whetherit was just during October or
whether it goes longer, but alot of the towns had lumiere.
So it was Chartres en lumiere, and there'sa whole walking trail that you can do
(42:01):
to see the different buildings lit upand the bridges, and stories being told.
That was fascinating.
And I wouldn't have donethat had I done a day trip.
Right, you can't do thatif you just do a day trip.
And yeah, to do that, you have tostay a few nights, at least one night,
and you have to stay up until dark.
Or get back very late atnight, and I don't do that.
(42:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, we need to bring this to a close.
I'm sure you had many, many otherwonderful experiences, but I will remind
people that I will put your guest noteswith lots of details about where you
stayed and how you got around and thingslike that, because that's going to
save people a ton of time, or at leastinspire them to go spend some time.
(42:47):
Would you say ... I mean, I know whatyou're going to say, you're going to
say that it's part of the joy of lifeto travel and take your time, right?
I'm a, as I said, a huge believerin slow travel and encounter.
Oh, I didn't even tell you about Parc deSceaux, which is, you know, surprising
that I stayed in another hostel, studenthostel, at Fontenay-aux-Roses, just
(43:08):
outside the periphery but at the endof a metro line, for my last night.
And then discovered this placeParc de Sceaux, which is a
fantastic chateau and gardens.
Really recommend going there.
But when I was leaving Fontenay-aux-Roses,I was on the station platform, coming
up in the elevator, and it was atiny, tiny elevator, and there was
(43:31):
a mother with three small children.
She was wearing a hijab, and the childrenwere probably three, four, and five.
They were very close in age, very young.
And we all squashed in thistiny elevator together.
And the little girl looked up at me,and she gave this huge grin and then
she made a heart shape with her fingersand she looked at me through them.
(43:52):
And I laughed and replied to her inFrench, also in Australia when I'm
traveling, and I laughed and I replied toher in French and said, "Ah, the children
in Australia do that too." And I made thesign back to her and I said, "I'm from
Australia." And then the mother startedlaughing and she said, "Ah, we're all
traveling, aren't we?" And I thought,"Well, that really sums it up." I mean,
(44:14):
like, wherever you are, you're traveling.
You're traveling.
It's the gift of, you know, encounterand connection and being open.
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
Well, Helena, you are wonderful.
Keep traveling.
You are an inspiration.
I'm sure lots of people are going tosay, "You know, I need to take that
trip I've been hoping to take," because
...And do it their way.
(44:34):
Yeah, you do it your way.
Find out what interests you.
Right.
Right.
And don't let budget be a... I mean,you know, you can do this, most
nights you paid, what, €60 eurosper night or something like that?
And I didn't stay inthe ultra-cheap places.
I mean, you can do that, but I knewthat I, at 70, you know, I don't
(44:55):
want the party hostels, for example.
But yeah, it's just doing it in a way... Every place that I stayed and I wanted
... I looked for, "Can I make a cup of tea?"That's my big thing when I'm traveling.
Forget the glass of wine and a cupof coffee, give me the cup of tea.
Yeah.
No, that's true.
(45:16):
That's true.
You have to understand whatyour needs are, and you have to
make sure those needs are met.
That's true at any age.
But as we get older, it'seven more true, I think.
Thank you so much, Helena.
You have been a delight to talk to.
I can't wait to see youagain at the Bootcamp.
...So looking forward to Bootcamp.
And keep on traveling, my friend.
(45:37):
Definitely.
Definitely.
All right.
Merci beaucoup.
Merci.
Au revoir.
A bientot.
A bientot.
A bientot.
Again, I want to thank my patrons forgiving back and supporting the show.
Patrons get several exclusiverewards for doing that, you can
(45:59):
see them at patreon.com/joinus.
And a special shout-out this week tomy new Join Us in France champions,
Abigail Merlis, Stephanie Bradley, GinaLayte Liston, Lauren, and Mali Le Doux.
(46:21):
And thank you, Robbie, forupgrading to yearly, it's great
for me, but it's also good for youbecause you get two months off.
Thank you so much everyone.
Would you join them too?
You can do it for as little as $3 amonth, but if you can afford it, I would
love to have you pledge more so youcan have access to more of the rewards.
So go to patreon.com/joinus and tosupport Elyse, go to patreon.com/elysart.
(46:49):
Somebody left this review of oneof my VoiceMap tours this week.
Guess which one it was?
"A well-balanced tour with excellentinformation and guidance. Many steep
climbs were avoided, which meant we couldfocus on the sights. Another outstanding
and wonderful VoiceMap experience."
(47:11):
So can you guess what it was?
Well, it was Montmartre, ofcourse, the place with a lot
of hills and a lot of steps.
VoiceMap is like taking a private tourwith a human guide who lets you stop
whenever you want, picks up again atyour leisure, or even goes to a different
point on the map, and you cannot do thatwith a real tour guide, not even with me.
I'm not that open-mindedwhen it's in person.
(47:34):
Podcast listeners get a big discountfor buying these tours from my website,
and it's best for me as well becauseI get to keep more of what you pay
instead of giving it to Apple or Google.
And if you're planning a trip toFrance and want expert help, you can
hire me as your itinerary consultant.
I will improve your plan ifyou already have one or suggest
(47:54):
one if you're at a loss.
And you can book that atjoinusinfrance.com/boutique.
Let's talk about why I recommend youuse Decathlon Outdoor instead of Komoot.
Both are route planning apps forhiking, cycling, and running.
I've stopped recommending Komoot becauseI've stopped using it myself as I found
(48:16):
a better option, and let me explain why.
In March 2025, Komoot wasacquired by Bending Spoons.
This is the same tech company thatsnapped up Evernote and WeTransfer
and laid off massive teams.
I also used WeTransfer for a longtime and pretty much stopped doing
it as well because they made itunusable, I think on purpose.
(48:39):
Getting acquired by Bending Spoons is notgood news for any company, in my opinion.
The first thing they do is start chargingfor basic services that used to be
free, but that's not the worst of it.
About 85% of Komoot's staffwere let go, so the people who
built the platform are gone.
So I've switched to recommendingDecathlon Outdoor instead.
(49:01):
It's 100% free so far.
Over 70,000 hiking and cycling routes areavailable in France with offline maps,
audio and visual GPS guidance, altitudeprofiles, and a clean, easy interface.
Community reviews, expert verifiedtrails, and features like exit
(49:23):
alerts make it reliable and safe.
Decathlon is a large French company thatsells sports equipment all over Europe.
That's why they have a stronginterest in helping us find great
hikes and bike paths, et cetera.
It's owned by the Mulliezfamily, like they also own
Auchan and Leroy Merlin, and the
(49:45):
Leclerc family.
You've probably heard ofLeclerc grocery stores, right?
So a couple of the most wealthiestFrench families right there.
And anyway, I see it as a more sustainableoption that won't lose 85% of its staff
overnight, which makes Decathlon Outdoor abetter choice in my mind and in practice.
(50:06):
I don't have anything against companiesmaking money, obviously, but information
that's meant to entice the public toenjoy the outdoors and stay active
and has been shared freely by usersshould not be monetized forcefully.
It's like this podcast.
There are enough of you purchasingmy tours and services that I can
(50:27):
make a living without puttingthe podcast behind a paywall.
There's no need to be greedy, I think.
Let's talk about thePompidou Center in Paris.
It's closing its doors for five yearsto undergo massive asbestos removal and
renovation work scheduled until 2030.
(50:50):
That means everything inside,paintings, sculptures, archives,
even the library, has to move.
We're talking about 120,000 works of art.
Some will travel around France, andabroad so the public can see them.
Others are going into restorationbefore they settle into a new
(51:11):
long-term storage facility beingbuilt in Massy, just outside of Paris.
It's not just for the art collections, theBibliotheque Publique d'Information, which
is the most visited library in France,is also packing up and will relocate
temporarily to another part of the city.
(51:31):
Behind the scenes, this is anextraordinary logistical challenge.
How do you move fragile masterpiecesor monumental sculptures safely?
Specialized teams are alreadyat work carefully emptying the
permanent collection floorsand preparing the treasures of
the Pompidou for their journey.
(51:51):
For the next five years, the Pompidouitself will be quiet, but its art will
be more visible than ever, circulatingacross museums in France and around the
world until it returns home in 2030.
So if you see any of these piecessomewhere out there, please let me know.
I like to hear where they'vebeen because that's always an
(52:13):
exciting to find out about.
The Bayeux Tapestry Museumin Normandy is now closed.
It shut down its doors in September2025, on the 1st I think, for
major renovation work that willlast until about October 2027.
This doesn't mean the BayeuxTapestry will stay hidden.
(52:34):
For the first time thetapestry is going on loan.
Starting September 2026 through July2027, the British Museum in London
will host the full 70 meter embroidery.
In return, some of Britain'sfamed artifacts, including the
Sutton Hoo Treasures and the LewisChessmen, will travel to Normandy.
(52:58):
The move is stirring a debate,conservation experts warn
the tapestry is fragile.
It already has thousands of stains,holes, and tears, but French and
British museum authorities saycareful planning is underway.
Special transport crates, climatecontrol, shock absorbent systems,
(53:19):
all part of this preparation.
For history lovers, this is huge.
It's a rare moment.
The tapestry's history, its storyof the Norman Conquest in 1066 comes
alive outside of Bayeux, and itreminds us of how art, travel, and
heritage link countries across time.
(53:39):
And I'm glad to hear that it will returnto Bayeux indeed and not be sent to Paris.
Paris has forever asked for the tapestryto go in Paris, and I think that's
ridiculous because Paris doesn't getto keep all of the pretty things, okay?
We need some of themoutside of Paris as well.
(54:01):
My thanks to podcast editors Anneand Christian Cotovan, who produced
the transcripts and the audio.
Next week on the podcast, an episodeabout how to plan a memorable family
trip to France with Heather Addison.
There are a lot of things to consider.
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time, so
we can look around France together.
(54:22):
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent, andCopyright 2025 by AddictedToFrance.
It is released under a CreativeCommons attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.
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