December 19, 2024 • 31 mins
What happens when you blend education with joy and curiosity? Dean Shareski, a seasoned educator and our special guest, paints a vivid picture of the transformative power of play-based learning. Despite not having a familial legacy in teaching, Dean discovered his calling amongst the laughter and boundless energy of primary grade classrooms. Listen as he shares his journey and insights into why nurturing a playful mindset is crucial for fostering a stress-free and engaging learning environment, arguing against the early push towards career-focused education.
Imagine a classroom where passion ignites learning and every student feels a sense of belonging. This episode uncovers how educators can infuse their personal interests into teaching to build a close-knit community. We discuss the freedom teachers often overlook and how small rituals, like a class tea time, can create a supportive atmosphere. Recognizing that students bring complex needs to school, we echo the sentiment that “you can't have Bloom's stuff until you take care of the Maslow's stuff,” advocating for a nurturing foundation before diving into academics.
Finally, we explore the evolving landscape of AI in education, drawing lessons from the early days of social media integration. Dean shares his experiences with AI tools in the classroom, emphasizing the importance of thoughtful implementation and the collaborative potential these tools offer. The Canadian Ed Leadership Show’s mission to spotlight educational innovations and share inspirational stories takes center stage as we reflect on the power of podcasts to drive positive change. Join us for a conversation filled with gratitude, inspiration, and commitment to advancing education in meaningful ways.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Okay, welcome back to another episode of Shifted Ed
podcast Coming out of Montreal.
Today a bit of a chilly nip inthe air, but I have Dean Shersky
who is going to warm our soulsup with some educational
thoughts and kind of look intothe future a little bit of
education as these shiftingtimes keep evolving.
(00:38):
Dean is a speaker, an author,an avid podcaster as well.
He has a great podcast outthere, the Canadian Ed
Leadership Show Also, if youwant to go back in time a bit,
outside the Classroom podcast aswell, and I like his motto
learning stuff since 1964.
(00:59):
Dean, tell us about what yourbig learning moments have been
since 1964 to kind of establishyourself a little bit and kind
of tell us, tell the audience,what your journey's been so far
as you might guess, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I think the thing is, you know, it's interesting when
you talk to educators in termsof how they got to where they
got, there's a lot of us whonever dreamed that education was
for us.
Now there's other people, greateducators, who you know that's
part of their heritage, right,mom and dad was a teacher or
(01:44):
principal or you know, and sothey've continued that because
they, you know, and I think Ithink there's something
beautiful about the fact ofwatching your parents do
something and saying I want todo that too.
I think that's a really, that'sa really wonderful testament to
them and to to your family, Iguess.
But that wasn't the case for me.
I, I, my parents were, in fact,my dad's still alive.
He's 92.
(02:05):
He's got a grade eighteducation, um so and you know,
it just wasn't something in mywheelhouse, what?
What was in my wheelhouse,though, as a young person, was I
really loved kids, like I wasthe teenager who was, uh, you
know, always we'd go to partiesor whatever, and I would like
just love hanging out withlittle ones.
(02:26):
They were just funny, and maybeit reflected my own lack of
maturity, I don't know.
And even when I got married ata pretty early age, kind of
discovered that that was what Ireally loved to do.
And then, you know, at thattime, even thinking about, like,
the job market and and you knowI had a lot of aspirations, I
(02:49):
was actually thinking aboutjournalism at one point in my
career, which is kind ofinteresting cause I still do a
lot of writing, so that thatnever really left me that desire
, but it really was thinkingabout.
Well, you know, there aren'tvery many young men in men in
general in elementary education,particularly in the primary
grades, and that was really whatI was interested in and so that
(03:14):
was, I mean, part of it.
And so anyway, through a lot ofdifferent circumstances,
decided that would be where Iwould start my journey.
And so, yeah, my first 14 yearsin education was a classroom
teacher, teaching.
You know, I taught everythingfrom kind of K to eight, but
most of it was in that primarygrades one and two area and I
just like I loved it.
It was just they, they just are, you know, just such a gift
(03:38):
every day.
I the mistake I made was Ididn't write down all the things
they said, like every day I'dcome home and it was like you
can't even believe what this kidsaid.
It's just amazing.
I have grandkids now and nowI'm I sort of I'm reflecting on
the fact like I should have beenmore attentive to writing all
the stuff down, cause there's somuch good stuff, but that
that's.
I mean, that's where it started.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I don't on from there , but that was the start of it.
Well, and kind of a questionabout that is play seems to be
so important in those youngeryears, right, like four,
five-year-olds I mean it's howthey start to develop.
I mean I push it all the way upuntil you know eight, nine
years old what happens in ourschools when play is not
understood, like what the ideais.
And it kind of connects alittle bit to your book where
(04:26):
you were talking about the joy,bringing joy and creating a
culture of joy, and I think playconnects to that a lot.
What do you think themisunderstandings are that we
have about play?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, I think, you know, there's always the there's
a sense of urgency and there'sobviously a number of factors,
but I think about, I think aboutnumber one, schools, and this
is particularly, even moreemphasized in the US, but it's
in Canada too, that school'srole of you know, preparing kids
(05:00):
for the workforce, and so thatthe urgency around that begins
to shift farther and fartherdown towards those early years.
And then there's always somekind of career.
You know education, you knoweven, you know as early as grade
five or six, which, again, I'mnot saying anything wrong with
that, but you could see wherethat that can lead to.
So I think there's that.
(05:20):
I think there's also justanytime you you add bureaucracy
to something that's prettynatural.
So one of my favorite books isthe book of learning and
forgetting, which really speaksto the idea that learning is a
pretty natural thing.
Like if, if we go back 300years when there was no public
education, people weren't stupid, people learned right.
(05:40):
They learned by the companythey kept, they learned by, you
know, mentoring, they learnedthrough all this, very, very
some of the very similar ways inwhich we see learning happen
now.
So I think we get away from thefact that it's actually kind of
a natural thing and I meanthere's so much research right
now and has been around the roleof play and maybe this also
(06:00):
goes back to me, you know, beingsomewhat having always had that
child.
Like you know, I like that'show I like to learn, I like to
horse around with stuff and playand make mistakes and and and
sort of alleviate some of the,the seriousness that gets laden
upon learning that everything isthis big urgent thing, like
(06:21):
just chill, like like this is awonderful time in our lives to
find out that, oh, that was,that was dumb, I shouldn't have
done that.
Or or, wow, I've learnedsomething.
I really like this, all ofthose kinds of opportunities.
So it it.
I think there's just a lot ofthings that change, like.
I think it's it's, but a lot ofit is just adding layers of
bureaucracy and people feel theneed to structure things in
(06:43):
order to make them feel goodabout whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Whatever their job doing, whether that's ministries
of education, districtleadership, classroom teachers,
parents we all do it, um,sometimes with good intention,
but I think we can see wheremaybe it's gone, you know, in a,
in a direction that maybe itshouldn't yeah, I hear you on
that, like here in quebec,anyway, our preschool program
(07:06):
has shifted back to a heavy playbase, you know, where they want
kids to have free play for liketwo hours a day, which again is
, I think, amazing because, asyou said, it's a natural process
to discover yourself as alearner.
It takes time and experiencesand opportunities that you lay
(07:26):
forth for them, but it'll justhappen.
Like exactly what you said, likethere's, we don't necessarily
you know, don't teach a bird howto sing, it just singing.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
But then there's always.
Then there's, at some point,there's the weird cutoff, right.
So we decide, oh, this is goodfor kindergartens.
And that was a realization thatI had.
So my first year in teachingfirst grade, you know, and I was
, you know, just like a lot ofteachers.
I was just trying to surviveand hang on and did what I was
thought was right, which was putkids in rows or whatever, like
kindergarten, that's where youplay.
Grade one is like let's getserious.
(07:58):
And so I remember those firstcouple of years really trying to
adopt to that and feeling likeI was pushing kids and like this
just didn't feel right.
But I didn't have the, I didn'thave the, the, the wherewithal
to really understand, likethat's.
I don't think that's how thisshould go.
And so it took me some time,and even after I'd finished my
tenure tenure in that gradelevel I don't think I fully
(08:18):
grasped that I needed to makethis way more play-based than
what I had even done.
And again, at some point, right, there's almost like a harsh
cutoff.
So, whether that's after, Idon't know, kindergarten, first
grade, second, whatever it is westill sometimes think well, we
push that aside, and I thinkthat's a shame.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, totally yeah.
It's almost like preschool isseen as like this, getting ready
for school, kind of likeenvironment, and then once
they're in grade one you knowI've heard many kids say to like
talking to.
You know grade ones and twos,like you know about play, you
know, so how's the play here ingrade one?
Like they just never get enoughof it.
(08:55):
You know it's never enough.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
They, we, have to sit at desks and comply and and fly
.
And we can add to the fact thatin our society today we see
kids struggle with socializationand play, and it's because once
they're at home, there's thatmuch more structure, right, like
they're going off to dance andhockey and everything else,
which, again, those are awesomethings.
But you know, unlike probablyyou and I in our childhood,
(09:20):
where there was just a lot morefree time.
And so what now is the questionthat I then ask is okay?
So if that's true and we don'tcontrol what happens at home,
but we can have some say at whathappens in those times at
school, maybe it's time that weincrease that play in
socialization, because that'snot something that they're
(09:40):
experiencing outside of schoolas much as they used to.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Very true, very true.
And it kind of brings me toyour work, where you do
emphasize this importance of joyin the learning, that we have
to infuse this in our everydaypractices.
Could you kind of expand onthat a bit, dean, and give us
some examples of how would youstart to establish a culture of
joy within your classroom?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Well, I mean number one.
It starts with you as theeducator.
Are you having fun at whatyou're doing?
Do you find joy in it?
And so one of the things that Italk a lot about in that vein
is, you know, and it's one of myfavorite quotes from Gary
Stager.
He says one of the best thingsyou can do for kids is to be an
interesting person, and so,basically, fostering your own
(10:29):
interest and loves and figuringout how to bring that into the
classroom, so you're excitedabout something and I, you know
the truth is I can.
I can hang out with anybody,and you know, it's funny.
Some of the podcasts I listenedto on topics and things that I
really don't know much about,I'm not even necessarily that
interested in, but I'm I'mcaptured by the passion of
(10:49):
people who are right, so theycan talk about woodworking and
cars and things that, like,those aren't my things, but
they're so passionate about,like, okay, you, you've hooked
me, I'm in Right.
So so I think that's where itstarts is is you as a teacher?
And and I think sometimesthere's been a and I think
sometimes there's been amisconception around what
constraints and or abilities doyou have to be your own person
(11:11):
in the classroom.
I think there's a lot morelatitude than maybe individuals
give themselves power andpermission to do.
I don't think there's peoplethat are saying, well, you can't
talk about your hobbies andpassions outside?
I think no for sure you can.
So I think that's one thing,and then I think the other thing
is really is to figure out away to create this sense of
(11:32):
community and belonging.
Right, like, like goodnessgracious, especially in
elementary, but even in highschool, right, you've got kids
for X number of hours a day, andif the experience is just you
as an individual going to school, and then the socialization,
the community part, is justwhatever you do as an individual
, I don't think that'soptimizing our time.
I think it happens when we'reintentional about creating that
(11:55):
sense of belonging and so then,empowering the kids to bring
their own selves, their passions, their interests and again,
these aren't new concepts, andpeople talk about personalized
learning.
People talk about kids beingable to do that.
Sure, you just have to beintentional about it and just
have to say this is somethingthat we're going to ensure that
we learn with and from oneanother.
Right, like, so it's not justabout the teacher, it's, it's
(12:17):
about how do we learn togetherand again, there's lots of
little strategies that canhappen with that, I think.
I think one of the things that'sreally important in that is is
rituals and routine, right?
So whether you start the dayevery day with a little game or
activity, and even if it's sillyand dumb and even if the kid's
kind of grown, it's the samething as when you tell a dad
(12:37):
joke and you know your kids go,oh, like yeah, they do that.
But inside it's like, yeah,that's my dad, he's just that
way and I'm part of thatexperience.
So I think having and Iremember, even in high schools,
like I remember going toSingapore a number of years ago
and going into a classroom therewhere the teacher English
teacher started every class withtea, so they would take 10
(12:59):
minutes out of their I don'tknow how long their class was,
75 minutes and just sit and havetea.
He'd turn the lights off, they'dsit down and I just thought,
well, what an awesome ritual.
These kids have been runningaround like crazy all day and it
was usually a class in theafternoon.
This was like this is justchance to chill, we'll talk and
then we'll get into things.
I thought like what an awesomelittle routine to to have as
(13:21):
part of your classroom.
So I think those are.
Those are two things the ideaof bringing your own self and
also being intentional aboutbuilding and creating community
yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I mean, it kind of brings me back to this
relationship building, like Ialways see education is is that,
is that we're, we're creatingrelationships with each other
and it's a very human thing,like play is right, like all of
these natural things that wejust are inclined to and taking
advantage of those that happen.
And I was looking at one ofyour presentations where you
(13:54):
talked about the classrooms ofthe future, about the classrooms
of the future, and I found aquote from there which I thought
was really interesting, whereyou said you can't have Bloom's
stuff until you take care of theMaslow's stuff.
And I thought again, get backto the basics of how we are as
humans, how we develop naturallyand take advantage of that.
(14:14):
Could you expand on that quotea little bit, because I just
found it really insightful.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah Well, I mean, it's not my quote, I can't even
tell you where it is, so Iwouldn't take credit for the
quote, but I will take creditfor for jumping on that idea as
as something that is is, I think, really a critical.
I mean, it's just that we, weskip so many steps, right, we
just like let's get into it,like here's the objective, so
how do we get there?
And it's like wait a minute,like like how do we?
This kid's not ready, they'renot ready to talk about this or
(14:42):
learn about this.
Cause there's and I think thisis where you know the notion of
classroom complexities, which isa term that's been used a lot
more in the last number of years, and you see this in provincial
negotiations and so forth abouthow do we address, and I think
what we're talking about, youknow, broadly speaking, is the
fact that kids just come toschool with so many needs that
(15:06):
that go beyond the capacity,really, even of most educators
to figure out.
Like I don't know how to helpthis kid's got, you know, wild
stuff happening at home or hasis coming with a, with some sort
of sort of you know, learningdisability or challenges that
that I don't know how to handle.
So I mean, I mean, again, wecan go down a whole rabbit hole
of what that should entail.
For sure there's, there'ssupports needed, but just the
(15:29):
acknowledgement that all right,um, I'm, I have this lesson plan
today and I've got three kidshere who are just like, it's
just not going to happen, like,and I remember, I remember as a
teacher fighting that and I'mgoing to, I'm going to make you
learn this, whether you're readyto or not, and that was just a
poor choice on my part.
(15:50):
So I think I think part of thatis just acknowledging that
maybe not everybody's there andyou know, I really I think where
I I believe I struggle with butI believe is important, is like
the invitation to learn.
So learning is an invitation.
So I'm going to create the, the, you know, put out the
smorgasbord of opportunity andlearning and invite you to.
(16:11):
There's three of them thatthey're just not there today.
Okay, so what else?
They're not coming to thesmorgasbord?
What could I bring them?
Could I bring them a bowl ofsoup or something that might
pique their interest?
They might not eat the wholething, but they'll get something
.
And I think you know, again, I'msimplifying something that's
(16:34):
really really challenging,complex, but at least in my mind
, I think I give myselfpermission to know that maybe
not every kid is in a positionto learn today or in this space,
and that's not necessarily onme, it's not necessarily on them
, it's just the way that it is.
And how might we go aboutfiguring out a way to help them
(16:58):
right?
And again, once you've sort oflaid that foundation of
acknowledgement, then yeah, okay, so who can support me in this
and what else do I need?
I don't have the capacity orthe bandwidth or knowledge to be
able to solve this, but maybeothers could.
And so again, just sort ofpiggies back on the idea of
community more broadly than justin a classroom, but in a school
(17:18):
or a school district where Iknow people can have my back and
say like I don't know, I got achallenge here, so I need some
help.
And hopefully you've got to,you work someplace where people
are willing and able to help you.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Absolutely.
You know it's interesting.
I was talking with my teamyesterday and we were talking a
lot about AI, you know.
I mean it's such a hot topicnow and kind of like how that
could help and assist teachersas well, and we were looking at
the idea of chatbots that aresubject specific or, you know,
(17:51):
cross-curricular or like just tospark ideas sometimes and it's
such a big topic.
But what's your feeling aboutAI and maybe some of the
misconceptions that are outthere about what it can actually
do for us in education to makeour lives easier and to support
the kids in a better way?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, I mean, that's been my world really for the
last year and a half.
So I feel pretty strongly aboutand what at least having the
conversation about, and whatI'll say right off the bat is I
am very much on the fence ofthis, in that I don't I don't
ever advocate, hey, this isgoing to revolutionize,
(18:33):
transform all the kinds of, uh,hyper hyperbole that people
throw at it.
I'm not, not, I'm not quitethere yet, maybe I will never
get there, and I'm very muchaware because when you, when you
start down that road, my mindgoes immediately and I realize
that's not exactly what you're,what you're suggesting, but I
think about some of the you know, recent news around the Eliza
(18:54):
effect and anthropomorphism ofthese bots, where kids are
seeing them as humans, and allof the really, really bad
outcomes that happen from that.
So I start with sort of justacknowledging there's dangers in
this and am working and willcontinue to work to at least be
literate among that, becausewhether or not you use that
(19:15):
chatbot in your classroom or not, those kids are using it in
snapchat and and and other toolsand so they need, they need
adults and they need, uh, wisepeople that can help them
navigate that.
But but, um, I think it.
Leon furzey says that you knowwe need to teach kids the, the
(19:35):
dangers and the challenges thatcome with these things, that
they, they, they are inherentlyunsafe.
And yet to cheat somehow, touse it anyway, right, right,
like it's, it's kind of that,it's kind of that dichotomy and
and I mean I know it almostsounds, you know, like it
doesn't even make sense, likeyou know these are dangerous but
yet you're still going to usethem and the and the answer is
(19:55):
yes, because there are ways thatthey can make a difference.
And I mean you and I, bothhaving, you know, utilize these
tools in agents in certain ways,have already seen like, oh,
there's a lot of benefit here,we just have to tread super,
super carefully.
But you know, and really beginto have.
I think part of it is you know,and again, I think we look back
(20:17):
at what happened with socialmedia and kind of how that
didn't go well and a lot of us,including myself, saw social
media when in the early days, as, wow, what a way to democratize
learning and so many things.
Everybody had a voice andthat's the good news.
Everybody had a voice.
The bad news is, everybody hada voice and we didn't do a whole
(20:38):
lot to put guardrails in placeand work with our students to
teach them.
Other than you know, the onlything we did was saying, well,
putting stuff online is bad, andthat was like that was not a
particularly useful position totake.
So I think we're seeing this aslike let's not do the same thing
with kids, so so what I say tothat is let's be very
(21:00):
intentional about wrestling withthe ethical dilemmas that come
with using these tools.
So the chat bot, as you pointedout, like what could that do in
a?
And I and I listen, I've seenexamples you've you've probably
seen them too where teachers aretalking, but I got 36 kids in
my classroom and how might I usea chat bot to support four kids
(21:21):
that are just waiting for me orcan't find the answers, and to
help them, kind of you know,continue to learn and keep going
and all of those kinds ofthings?
So so I think there's and againthere's, there's lots of ways,
and I think I'm I'm confidentwith thoughtful and caring
teachers, to implement this invery, very targeted, specific
(21:44):
ways, not opening up the gatesand saying, all right, let's go,
let's throw it out here.
But let's look at things really, really carefully and try
certain things and analyzewhether or not that was good.
And I'll give you an example.
So I'm teaching I just finishedteaching a grad class this
semester and you know, my AIsort of statement was like I
(22:09):
don't care how you use it, youjust have to document how you're
using it, tell me and these areall teachers and principals,
and so they're, you know,they're looking at it, they're
both students, but they're also,you know, educators.
So they have they have a coupleof lenses that they're looking
at this from.
And you know there was a pointwhere they were submitting some
initial their projects that theywere going to do, and they and
(22:31):
I was giving them feedback.
I used AI to get feedback forthem.
And then I, you know I went inand added my own things, but I
told them very transparently.
I said, look, just so you knowI used AI for this, but I want
you to tell me how you feelabout that.
Did that bother you Did that?
Did that feel like I wascheating?
I was just very open with themand I didn't hear any negative
(22:51):
things.
I heard a number of them saidwell, I assumed you would use AI
, like, of course, and you know,the output was such that, like,
the feedback was better thanwhat I would have given them,
because they saw things that Ididn't see.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
And then I added things that I saw, so it was a
joint effort.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
But that's an example of I mean, it was really
helpful, but I still I'm stillcautious and still engaged in
like and if someone had comeback to me and said, like I
didn't like that, that botheredme, that you used AI, I wanted
to hear from you, even if it maynot have been as good, I would
have been completely cool withthat response.
But that's just an example of,I think, the way we have to deal
(23:29):
with this moving forward.
It's little baby steps, tryingthings, but just being ready to
wrestle with the dilemmas thatcome from it.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Absolutely.
I think, too, thoseconversations that you're
talking about are superimportant to have for for
educators, before we kind oflike open those doors up to to
to for our students and I agreewith you, students are using it
anyway outside of class and ourfocus has been let's look at
teachers and how we can supportthem so that they have more
knowledge to when it's time forthem to talk with their kids, at
(23:58):
least they have some kind ofit's not based on you know
thoughts or beliefs or or youknow opinions, that it's based
on stuff that is actual um, andthat those conversations, if we
don't have exactly what you weresaying, the social media thing
will happen all over again,where we kind of miss the boat
on that.
Yeah, so having thoseconversations and pushing it, I
(24:26):
think that's why it's such a hottopic.
As you said, for the last yearand a half it's just been that's
what we've been talking aboutin education.
I find, too, that theconversations from your podcast
kind of to just bring it I wantto bring it back to the podcast
as we wrap things up here, Dean,because I've been listening to
them and I just really, reallyappreciate that you span across
(24:49):
not only Canada but you'rereaching out to others and it's
very much of a leadership kindof approach to it or a lens that
you're looking through withthis latest podcast that you're
doing, the Canadian EdLeadership Show.
What have been your greatestsurprises about this podcast?
(25:10):
I think you're at 70, some oddepisodes as well, right.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, just about.
I think I'm at 69 or 70.
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
What are your feelings about that?
I can remember 69 or 70.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Amazing, what are your feelings about that.
Yeah, well, again, the goal wasreally to highlight Canada as
being a leader in education.
I mean, for years it was PasiSolberg talking about Finland.
Even Pasi Solberg herself saysmaybe we should be looking at
Canada and I think we asCanadians, we underestimate our
(25:41):
impact and our education systembecause those of us who are in
it are spending so much of ourtime trying to continue to make
it better, which is great andpart of our ethos and culture.
But you know, to pause andactually reflect on you know we
do a lot of things really well.
That was my goal.
Part of it was like just to say, like, look at right across
from and, by the way, I stilldon't have anyone from
newfoundland on my show.
So I've been reaching out topeople.
(26:03):
So if you can hook me up with anewfoundland person, I'd love
to have them.
But every other province I'veI've hit and covered and, and it
just time after time.
You know I'm just, you're justso impressed.
I mean I've, I've had thatexperience in my, in my, you
know, especially you know, my 12years since I've left our local
school district.
Traveling around, I just meetso many really, really
(26:24):
thoughtful, caring people sothat I would say was not a
surprise what I would point to,a couple of episodes that I that
highlight kind of like and sortof.
My most viewed episode was theone I did with Superintendent
CEO Matt Henderson of WinnipegSchool Division, and I've known
Matt.
I knew Matt 12 years ago.
(26:46):
I met him in Winnipeg when hewas a social studies teacher at
the time.
Okay, and Matt talked aboutlove.
He talked about like you can'tdo this without love, and love
is not a word we use that freelyin education, right, because
it's we maybe think we're, Idon't know, is it crossing lines
Like not really love, but likehe's not.
He was not afraid to use love.
(27:08):
I love my people and I want towas really powerful.
And then, similarly, but in alittle different twist, mark
Perrimane of Surrey SchoolDistrict in British Columbia
said that leadership is fun andthat's not something that we are
(27:33):
in a bit of a leadership crisisin education that we're having
that we're not getting as manypeople interested in leadership
because of how difficult the job.
And it's the same thing withteachers, right, we're just not
getting as many teachers.
It's the leadership job youknow people are looking at and
going like I just don't want todo that job because it looks
really hard and taxing.
And so one of the things that Ithink flips that is leaders
(27:55):
like Mark and others who visiblyshow they're enjoying what
they're doing, like you look atthem and say like, hey, that
guy's having fun, she's reallydoing a great job.
I think I want to be like herin the way they're doing that,
and sometimes that's, you know,you have to kind of be
thoughtful about that.
So I think that's that'ssomething.
And then I, you know the otherthing I always try to, you know,
I try to get at who they are,who these people are as people.
(28:18):
So my latest, one of my latestones, is with JB Malley, and I
know JB, so he I knew.
Part of what I love about himis he used to be a ball boy for
the Vancouver Grizzlies, so he'stelling stories about, like
talking to Shaquille O'Neal andMichael Jordan and then Tom
D'Amico from Ottawa Catholic,like he works for the NHL and so
like all these little extrathings that people do, which is,
(28:39):
you know, I, like I said youmentioned, I had another podcast
outside the classroom which waslike again, this goes back to
my my statement before aboutbeing an interesting person.
So these are interesting people, right, like they're not.
It's not just about what they doin the educations, like they're
they're.
They have interesting ideas andpassions and and and you know,
(28:59):
things they pursue outside that.
And then you know, like everyeducator, you make connections
between all that time I did thisoutside, like here's how it
relates, you never shut yourbrain off fully and they always
making those connections.
So that's, yeah, it's.
It's just been amazing to youknow, and I'm excited to kind of
keep going on it and sort ofexpanding the show.
But yeah, that's definitelybeen some highlights.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Do you have any guests that are coming down the
pipe that you can share with usthat you're excited about?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Well, she's not confirmed yet, so I'm not.
I want to say, just because I'mhopeful, she said she would do
it and we have to reconnect, butI don't know if you're familiar
with Nora Jones from CBC Spark.
Yes, you know that and again,like now I'm now I'm expanding
the definition of, you know, aneducational leader.
(29:51):
I mean, she's not in education,but you know, she's somebody
who's been producing contentthat all you know, if you're in
lots, of, lots of things.
Her topics are educationrelated and it's about
technology and its impact onsociety, which, just broadly
speaking, is education.
And so excited to do that and Ithink that's that's kind of
what I'm hoping, maybe in 2025is to add some people who aren't
(30:14):
typical educators, but peoplewho are influence, are
influencers in that space andpeople that we kind of look up
to.
So, yeah, that's somebody thatI'm looking forward to.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, Awesome, awesome.
Well, it's a great show.
I recommend listeners tosubscribe and check out the
Canadian Ed Leadership Show.
Great stuff on there already aton of episodes so you can go
back in time and spend a bit ofthe holiday season catching up
on some thoughts From play tojoy to love.
(30:48):
It's been a great conversation,dean.
I thank you so much for carvinga bit of time out and sharing
your thoughts.
It's been really fun talkingwith you, so thank you for
joining me.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Well, hey, thank you.
Thank you, chris, I appreciateyou Again.
I know you've done a lot ofgood work and I checked a number
of episodes of people that I'mpretty familiar with John
Spencer and George Koros and afew others that are good friends
of mine so it's great workyou're doing.
So I think there's there'snever enough of these for us to
(31:21):
do, for us to do and share andhighlight, um, you know, really
positive things in education.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So thank you for what you're doing, thank you for
having me on the show.
Oh, it's been a pleasure, realpleasure.
I wish you a great uh rest too,and holiday season, and, um, I
mean, keep fighting the goodfight and uh, this has been a
lot of fun.
So thanks again.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yes.
Okay, welcome back to another episode of Shifted Ed
podcast Coming out of Montreal.
Today a bit of a chilly nip inthe air, but I have Dean Shersky
who is going to warm our soulsup with some educational
thoughts and kind of look intothe future a little bit of
education as these shiftingtimes keep evolving.
(00:38):
Dean is a speaker, an author,an avid podcaster as well.
He has a great podcast outthere, the Canadian Ed
Leadership Show Also, if youwant to go back in time a bit,
outside the Classroom podcast aswell, and I like his motto
learning stuff since 1964.
(00:59):
Dean, tell us about what yourbig learning moments have been
since 1964 to kind of establishyourself a little bit and kind
of tell us, tell the audience,what your journey's been so far
as you might guess, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I think the thing is, you know, it's interesting when
you talk to educators in termsof how they got to where they
got, there's a lot of us whonever dreamed that education was
for us.
Now there's other people, greateducators, who you know that's
part of their heritage, right,mom and dad was a teacher or
(01:44):
principal or you know, and sothey've continued that because
they, you know, and I think Ithink there's something
beautiful about the fact ofwatching your parents do
something and saying I want todo that too.
I think that's a really, that'sa really wonderful testament to
them and to to your family, Iguess.
But that wasn't the case for me.
I, I, my parents were, in fact,my dad's still alive.
He's 92.
(02:05):
He's got a grade eighteducation, um so and you know,
it just wasn't something in mywheelhouse, what?
What was in my wheelhouse,though, as a young person, was I
really loved kids, like I wasthe teenager who was, uh, you
know, always we'd go to partiesor whatever, and I would like
just love hanging out withlittle ones.
(02:26):
They were just funny, and maybeit reflected my own lack of
maturity, I don't know.
And even when I got married ata pretty early age, kind of
discovered that that was what Ireally loved to do.
And then, you know, at thattime, even thinking about, like,
the job market and and you knowI had a lot of aspirations, I
(02:49):
was actually thinking aboutjournalism at one point in my
career, which is kind ofinteresting cause I still do a
lot of writing, so that thatnever really left me that desire
, but it really was thinkingabout.
Well, you know, there aren'tvery many young men in men in
general in elementary education,particularly in the primary
grades, and that was really whatI was interested in and so that
(03:14):
was, I mean, part of it.
And so anyway, through a lot ofdifferent circumstances,
decided that would be where Iwould start my journey.
And so, yeah, my first 14 yearsin education was a classroom
teacher, teaching.
You know, I taught everythingfrom kind of K to eight, but
most of it was in that primarygrades one and two area and I
just like I loved it.
It was just they, they just are, you know, just such a gift
(03:38):
every day.
I the mistake I made was Ididn't write down all the things
they said, like every day I'dcome home and it was like you
can't even believe what this kidsaid.
It's just amazing.
I have grandkids now and nowI'm I sort of I'm reflecting on
the fact like I should have beenmore attentive to writing all
the stuff down, cause there's somuch good stuff, but that
that's.
I mean, that's where it started.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I don't on from there , but that was the start of it.
Well, and kind of a questionabout that is play seems to be
so important in those youngeryears, right, like four,
five-year-olds I mean it's howthey start to develop.
I mean I push it all the way upuntil you know eight, nine
years old what happens in ourschools when play is not
understood, like what the ideais.
And it kind of connects alittle bit to your book where
(04:26):
you were talking about the joy,bringing joy and creating a
culture of joy, and I think playconnects to that a lot.
What do you think themisunderstandings are that we
have about play?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, I think, you know, there's always the there's
a sense of urgency and there'sobviously a number of factors,
but I think about, I think aboutnumber one, schools, and this
is particularly, even moreemphasized in the US, but it's
in Canada too, that school'srole of you know, preparing kids
(05:00):
for the workforce, and so thatthe urgency around that begins
to shift farther and fartherdown towards those early years.
And then there's always somekind of career.
You know education, you knoweven, you know as early as grade
five or six, which, again, I'mnot saying anything wrong with
that, but you could see wherethat that can lead to.
So I think there's that.
(05:20):
I think there's also justanytime you you add bureaucracy
to something that's prettynatural.
So one of my favorite books isthe book of learning and
forgetting, which really speaksto the idea that learning is a
pretty natural thing.
Like if, if we go back 300years when there was no public
education, people weren't stupid, people learned right.
(05:40):
They learned by the companythey kept, they learned by, you
know, mentoring, they learnedthrough all this, very, very
some of the very similar ways inwhich we see learning happen
now.
So I think we get away from thefact that it's actually kind of
a natural thing and I meanthere's so much research right
now and has been around the roleof play and maybe this also
(06:00):
goes back to me, you know, beingsomewhat having always had that
child.
Like you know, I like that'show I like to learn, I like to
horse around with stuff and playand make mistakes and and and
sort of alleviate some of the,the seriousness that gets laden
upon learning that everything isthis big urgent thing, like
(06:21):
just chill, like like this is awonderful time in our lives to
find out that, oh, that was,that was dumb, I shouldn't have
done that.
Or or, wow, I've learnedsomething.
I really like this, all ofthose kinds of opportunities.
So it it.
I think there's just a lot ofthings that change, like.
I think it's it's, but a lot ofit is just adding layers of
bureaucracy and people feel theneed to structure things in
(06:43):
order to make them feel goodabout whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Whatever their job doing, whether that's ministries
of education, districtleadership, classroom teachers,
parents we all do it, um,sometimes with good intention,
but I think we can see wheremaybe it's gone, you know, in a,
in a direction that maybe itshouldn't yeah, I hear you on
that, like here in quebec,anyway, our preschool program
(07:06):
has shifted back to a heavy playbase, you know, where they want
kids to have free play for liketwo hours a day, which again is
, I think, amazing because, asyou said, it's a natural process
to discover yourself as alearner.
It takes time and experiencesand opportunities that you lay
(07:26):
forth for them, but it'll justhappen.
Like exactly what you said, likethere's, we don't necessarily
you know, don't teach a bird howto sing, it just singing.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
But then there's always.
Then there's, at some point,there's the weird cutoff, right.
So we decide, oh, this is goodfor kindergartens.
And that was a realization thatI had.
So my first year in teachingfirst grade, you know, and I was
, you know, just like a lot ofteachers.
I was just trying to surviveand hang on and did what I was
thought was right, which was putkids in rows or whatever, like
kindergarten, that's where youplay.
Grade one is like let's getserious.
(07:58):
And so I remember those firstcouple of years really trying to
adopt to that and feeling likeI was pushing kids and like this
just didn't feel right.
But I didn't have the, I didn'thave the, the, the wherewithal
to really understand, likethat's.
I don't think that's how thisshould go.
And so it took me some time,and even after I'd finished my
tenure tenure in that gradelevel I don't think I fully
(08:18):
grasped that I needed to makethis way more play-based than
what I had even done.
And again, at some point, right, there's almost like a harsh
cutoff.
So, whether that's after, Idon't know, kindergarten, first
grade, second, whatever it is westill sometimes think well, we
push that aside, and I thinkthat's a shame.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, totally yeah.
It's almost like preschool isseen as like this, getting ready
for school, kind of likeenvironment, and then once
they're in grade one you knowI've heard many kids say to like
talking to.
You know grade ones and twos,like you know about play, you
know, so how's the play here ingrade one?
Like they just never get enoughof it.
(08:55):
You know it's never enough.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
They, we, have to sit at desks and comply and and fly
.
And we can add to the fact thatin our society today we see
kids struggle with socializationand play, and it's because once
they're at home, there's thatmuch more structure, right, like
they're going off to dance andhockey and everything else,
which, again, those are awesomethings.
But you know, unlike probablyyou and I in our childhood,
(09:20):
where there was just a lot morefree time.
And so what now is the questionthat I then ask is okay?
So if that's true and we don'tcontrol what happens at home,
but we can have some say at whathappens in those times at
school, maybe it's time that weincrease that play in
socialization, because that'snot something that they're
(09:40):
experiencing outside of schoolas much as they used to.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Very true, very true.
And it kind of brings me toyour work, where you do
emphasize this importance of joyin the learning, that we have
to infuse this in our everydaypractices.
Could you kind of expand onthat a bit, dean, and give us
some examples of how would youstart to establish a culture of
joy within your classroom?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Well, I mean number one.
It starts with you as theeducator.
Are you having fun at whatyou're doing?
Do you find joy in it?
And so one of the things that Italk a lot about in that vein
is, you know, and it's one of myfavorite quotes from Gary
Stager.
He says one of the best thingsyou can do for kids is to be an
interesting person, and so,basically, fostering your own
(10:29):
interest and loves and figuringout how to bring that into the
classroom, so you're excitedabout something and I, you know
the truth is I can.
I can hang out with anybody,and you know, it's funny.
Some of the podcasts I listenedto on topics and things that I
really don't know much about,I'm not even necessarily that
interested in, but I'm I'mcaptured by the passion of
(10:49):
people who are right, so theycan talk about woodworking and
cars and things that, like,those aren't my things, but
they're so passionate about,like, okay, you, you've hooked
me, I'm in Right.
So so I think that's where itstarts is is you as a teacher?
And and I think sometimesthere's been a and I think
sometimes there's been amisconception around what
constraints and or abilities doyou have to be your own person
(11:11):
in the classroom.
I think there's a lot morelatitude than maybe individuals
give themselves power andpermission to do.
I don't think there's peoplethat are saying, well, you can't
talk about your hobbies andpassions outside?
I think no for sure you can.
So I think that's one thing,and then I think the other thing
is really is to figure out away to create this sense of
(11:32):
community and belonging.
Right, like, like goodnessgracious, especially in
elementary, but even in highschool, right, you've got kids
for X number of hours a day, andif the experience is just you
as an individual going to school, and then the socialization,
the community part, is justwhatever you do as an individual
, I don't think that'soptimizing our time.
I think it happens when we'reintentional about creating that
(11:55):
sense of belonging and so then,empowering the kids to bring
their own selves, their passions, their interests and again,
these aren't new concepts, andpeople talk about personalized
learning.
People talk about kids beingable to do that.
Sure, you just have to beintentional about it and just
have to say this is somethingthat we're going to ensure that
we learn with and from oneanother.
Right, like, so it's not justabout the teacher, it's, it's
(12:17):
about how do we learn togetherand again, there's lots of
little strategies that canhappen with that, I think.
I think one of the things that'sreally important in that is is
rituals and routine, right?
So whether you start the dayevery day with a little game or
activity, and even if it's sillyand dumb and even if the kid's
kind of grown, it's the samething as when you tell a dad
(12:37):
joke and you know your kids go,oh, like yeah, they do that.
But inside it's like, yeah,that's my dad, he's just that
way and I'm part of thatexperience.
So I think having and Iremember, even in high schools,
like I remember going toSingapore a number of years ago
and going into a classroom therewhere the teacher English
teacher started every class withtea, so they would take 10
(12:59):
minutes out of their I don'tknow how long their class was,
75 minutes and just sit and havetea.
He'd turn the lights off, they'dsit down and I just thought,
well, what an awesome ritual.
These kids have been runningaround like crazy all day and it
was usually a class in theafternoon.
This was like this is justchance to chill, we'll talk and
then we'll get into things.
I thought like what an awesomelittle routine to to have as
(13:21):
part of your classroom.
So I think those are.
Those are two things the ideaof bringing your own self and
also being intentional aboutbuilding and creating community
yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I mean, it kind of brings me back to this
relationship building, like Ialways see education is is that,
is that we're, we're creatingrelationships with each other
and it's a very human thing,like play is right, like all of
these natural things that wejust are inclined to and taking
advantage of those that happen.
And I was looking at one ofyour presentations where you
(13:54):
talked about the classrooms ofthe future, about the classrooms
of the future, and I found aquote from there which I thought
was really interesting, whereyou said you can't have Bloom's
stuff until you take care of theMaslow's stuff.
And I thought again, get backto the basics of how we are as
humans, how we develop naturallyand take advantage of that.
(14:14):
Could you expand on that quotea little bit, because I just
found it really insightful.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah Well, I mean, it's not my quote, I can't even
tell you where it is, so Iwouldn't take credit for the
quote, but I will take creditfor for jumping on that idea as
as something that is is, I think, really a critical.
I mean, it's just that we, weskip so many steps, right, we
just like let's get into it,like here's the objective, so
how do we get there?
And it's like wait a minute,like like how do we?
This kid's not ready, they'renot ready to talk about this or
(14:42):
learn about this.
Cause there's and I think thisis where you know the notion of
classroom complexities, which isa term that's been used a lot
more in the last number of years, and you see this in provincial
negotiations and so forth abouthow do we address, and I think
what we're talking about, youknow, broadly speaking, is the
fact that kids just come toschool with so many needs that
(15:06):
that go beyond the capacity,really, even of most educators
to figure out.
Like I don't know how to helpthis kid's got, you know, wild
stuff happening at home or hasis coming with a, with some sort
of sort of you know, learningdisability or challenges that
that I don't know how to handle.
So I mean, I mean, again, wecan go down a whole rabbit hole
of what that should entail.
For sure there's, there'ssupports needed, but just the
(15:29):
acknowledgement that all right,um, I'm, I have this lesson plan
today and I've got three kidshere who are just like, it's
just not going to happen, like,and I remember, I remember as a
teacher fighting that and I'mgoing to, I'm going to make you
learn this, whether you're readyto or not, and that was just a
poor choice on my part.
(15:50):
So I think I think part of thatis just acknowledging that
maybe not everybody's there andyou know, I really I think where
I I believe I struggle with butI believe is important, is like
the invitation to learn.
So learning is an invitation.
So I'm going to create the, the, you know, put out the
smorgasbord of opportunity andlearning and invite you to.
(16:11):
There's three of them thatthey're just not there today.
Okay, so what else?
They're not coming to thesmorgasbord?
What could I bring them?
Could I bring them a bowl ofsoup or something that might
pique their interest?
They might not eat the wholething, but they'll get something
.
And I think you know, again, I'msimplifying something that's
(16:34):
really really challenging,complex, but at least in my mind
, I think I give myselfpermission to know that maybe
not every kid is in a positionto learn today or in this space,
and that's not necessarily onme, it's not necessarily on them
, it's just the way that it is.
And how might we go aboutfiguring out a way to help them
(16:58):
right?
And again, once you've sort oflaid that foundation of
acknowledgement, then yeah, okay, so who can support me in this
and what else do I need?
I don't have the capacity orthe bandwidth or knowledge to be
able to solve this, but maybeothers could.
And so again, just sort ofpiggies back on the idea of
community more broadly than justin a classroom, but in a school
(17:18):
or a school district where Iknow people can have my back and
say like I don't know, I got achallenge here, so I need some
help.
And hopefully you've got to,you work someplace where people
are willing and able to help you.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Absolutely.
You know it's interesting.
I was talking with my teamyesterday and we were talking a
lot about AI, you know.
I mean it's such a hot topicnow and kind of like how that
could help and assist teachersas well, and we were looking at
the idea of chatbots that aresubject specific or, you know,
(17:51):
cross-curricular or like just tospark ideas sometimes and it's
such a big topic.
But what's your feeling aboutAI and maybe some of the
misconceptions that are outthere about what it can actually
do for us in education to makeour lives easier and to support
the kids in a better way?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, I mean, that's been my world really for the
last year and a half.
So I feel pretty strongly aboutand what at least having the
conversation about, and whatI'll say right off the bat is I
am very much on the fence ofthis, in that I don't I don't
ever advocate, hey, this isgoing to revolutionize,
(18:33):
transform all the kinds of, uh,hyper hyperbole that people
throw at it.
I'm not, not, I'm not quitethere yet, maybe I will never
get there, and I'm very muchaware because when you, when you
start down that road, my mindgoes immediately and I realize
that's not exactly what you're,what you're suggesting, but I
think about some of the you know, recent news around the Eliza
(18:54):
effect and anthropomorphism ofthese bots, where kids are
seeing them as humans, and allof the really, really bad
outcomes that happen from that.
So I start with sort of justacknowledging there's dangers in
this and am working and willcontinue to work to at least be
literate among that, becausewhether or not you use that
(19:15):
chatbot in your classroom or not, those kids are using it in
snapchat and and and other toolsand so they need, they need
adults and they need, uh, wisepeople that can help them
navigate that.
But but, um, I think it.
Leon furzey says that you knowwe need to teach kids the, the
(19:35):
dangers and the challenges thatcome with these things, that
they, they, they are inherentlyunsafe.
And yet to cheat somehow, touse it anyway, right, right,
like it's, it's kind of that,it's kind of that dichotomy and
and I mean I know it almostsounds, you know, like it
doesn't even make sense, likeyou know these are dangerous but
yet you're still going to usethem and the and the answer is
(19:55):
yes, because there are ways thatthey can make a difference.
And I mean you and I, bothhaving, you know, utilize these
tools in agents in certain ways,have already seen like, oh,
there's a lot of benefit here,we just have to tread super,
super carefully.
But you know, and really beginto have.
I think part of it is you know,and again, I think we look back
(20:17):
at what happened with socialmedia and kind of how that
didn't go well and a lot of us,including myself, saw social
media when in the early days, as, wow, what a way to democratize
learning and so many things.
Everybody had a voice andthat's the good news.
Everybody had a voice.
The bad news is, everybody hada voice and we didn't do a whole
(20:38):
lot to put guardrails in placeand work with our students to
teach them.
Other than you know, the onlything we did was saying, well,
putting stuff online is bad, andthat was like that was not a
particularly useful position totake.
So I think we're seeing this aslike let's not do the same thing
with kids, so so what I say tothat is let's be very
(21:00):
intentional about wrestling withthe ethical dilemmas that come
with using these tools.
So the chat bot, as you pointedout, like what could that do in
a?
And I and I listen, I've seenexamples you've you've probably
seen them too where teachers aretalking, but I got 36 kids in
my classroom and how might I usea chat bot to support four kids
(21:21):
that are just waiting for me orcan't find the answers, and to
help them, kind of you know,continue to learn and keep going
and all of those kinds ofthings?
So so I think there's and againthere's, there's lots of ways,
and I think I'm I'm confidentwith thoughtful and caring
teachers, to implement this invery, very targeted, specific
(21:44):
ways, not opening up the gatesand saying, all right, let's go,
let's throw it out here.
But let's look at things really, really carefully and try
certain things and analyzewhether or not that was good.
And I'll give you an example.
So I'm teaching I just finishedteaching a grad class this
semester and you know, my AIsort of statement was like I
(22:09):
don't care how you use it, youjust have to document how you're
using it, tell me and these areall teachers and principals,
and so they're, you know,they're looking at it, they're
both students, but they're also,you know, educators.
So they have they have a coupleof lenses that they're looking
at this from.
And you know there was a pointwhere they were submitting some
initial their projects that theywere going to do, and they and
(22:31):
I was giving them feedback.
I used AI to get feedback forthem.
And then I, you know I went inand added my own things, but I
told them very transparently.
I said, look, just so you knowI used AI for this, but I want
you to tell me how you feelabout that.
Did that bother you Did that?
Did that feel like I wascheating?
I was just very open with themand I didn't hear any negative
(22:51):
things.
I heard a number of them saidwell, I assumed you would use AI
, like, of course, and you know,the output was such that, like,
the feedback was better thanwhat I would have given them,
because they saw things that Ididn't see.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
And then I added things that I saw, so it was a
joint effort.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
But that's an example of I mean, it was really
helpful, but I still I'm stillcautious and still engaged in
like and if someone had comeback to me and said, like I
didn't like that, that botheredme, that you used AI, I wanted
to hear from you, even if it maynot have been as good, I would
have been completely cool withthat response.
But that's just an example of,I think, the way we have to deal
(23:29):
with this moving forward.
It's little baby steps, tryingthings, but just being ready to
wrestle with the dilemmas thatcome from it.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Absolutely.
I think, too, thoseconversations that you're
talking about are superimportant to have for for
educators, before we kind oflike open those doors up to to
to for our students and I agreewith you, students are using it
anyway outside of class and ourfocus has been let's look at
teachers and how we can supportthem so that they have more
knowledge to when it's time forthem to talk with their kids, at
(23:58):
least they have some kind ofit's not based on you know
thoughts or beliefs or or youknow opinions, that it's based
on stuff that is actual um, andthat those conversations, if we
don't have exactly what you weresaying, the social media thing
will happen all over again,where we kind of miss the boat
on that.
Yeah, so having thoseconversations and pushing it, I
(24:26):
think that's why it's such a hottopic.
As you said, for the last yearand a half it's just been that's
what we've been talking aboutin education.
I find, too, that theconversations from your podcast
kind of to just bring it I wantto bring it back to the podcast
as we wrap things up here, Dean,because I've been listening to
them and I just really, reallyappreciate that you span across
(24:49):
not only Canada but you'rereaching out to others and it's
very much of a leadership kindof approach to it or a lens that
you're looking through withthis latest podcast that you're
doing, the Canadian EdLeadership Show.
What have been your greatestsurprises about this podcast?
(25:10):
I think you're at 70, some oddepisodes as well, right.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, just about.
I think I'm at 69 or 70.
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
What are your feelings about that?
I can remember 69 or 70.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Amazing, what are your feelings about that.
Yeah, well, again, the goal wasreally to highlight Canada as
being a leader in education.
I mean, for years it was PasiSolberg talking about Finland.
Even Pasi Solberg herself saysmaybe we should be looking at
Canada and I think we asCanadians, we underestimate our
(25:41):
impact and our education systembecause those of us who are in
it are spending so much of ourtime trying to continue to make
it better, which is great andpart of our ethos and culture.
But you know, to pause andactually reflect on you know we
do a lot of things really well.
That was my goal.
Part of it was like just to say, like, look at right across
from and, by the way, I stilldon't have anyone from
newfoundland on my show.
So I've been reaching out topeople.
(26:03):
So if you can hook me up with anewfoundland person, I'd love
to have them.
But every other province I'veI've hit and covered and, and it
just time after time.
You know I'm just, you're justso impressed.
I mean I've, I've had thatexperience in my, in my, you
know, especially you know, my 12years since I've left our local
school district.
Traveling around, I just meetso many really, really
(26:24):
thoughtful, caring people sothat I would say was not a
surprise what I would point to,a couple of episodes that I that
highlight kind of like and sortof.
My most viewed episode was theone I did with Superintendent
CEO Matt Henderson of WinnipegSchool Division, and I've known
Matt.
I knew Matt 12 years ago.
(26:46):
I met him in Winnipeg when hewas a social studies teacher at
the time.
Okay, and Matt talked aboutlove.
He talked about like you can'tdo this without love, and love
is not a word we use that freelyin education, right, because
it's we maybe think we're, Idon't know, is it crossing lines
Like not really love, but likehe's not.
He was not afraid to use love.
(27:08):
I love my people and I want towas really powerful.
And then, similarly, but in alittle different twist, mark
Perrimane of Surrey SchoolDistrict in British Columbia
said that leadership is fun andthat's not something that we are
(27:33):
in a bit of a leadership crisisin education that we're having
that we're not getting as manypeople interested in leadership
because of how difficult the job.
And it's the same thing withteachers, right, we're just not
getting as many teachers.
It's the leadership job youknow people are looking at and
going like I just don't want todo that job because it looks
really hard and taxing.
And so one of the things that Ithink flips that is leaders
(27:55):
like Mark and others who visiblyshow they're enjoying what
they're doing, like you look atthem and say like, hey, that
guy's having fun, she's reallydoing a great job.
I think I want to be like herin the way they're doing that,
and sometimes that's, you know,you have to kind of be
thoughtful about that.
So I think that's that'ssomething.
And then I, you know the otherthing I always try to, you know,
I try to get at who they are,who these people are as people.
(28:18):
So my latest, one of my latestones, is with JB Malley, and I
know JB, so he I knew.
Part of what I love about himis he used to be a ball boy for
the Vancouver Grizzlies, so he'stelling stories about, like
talking to Shaquille O'Neal andMichael Jordan and then Tom
D'Amico from Ottawa Catholic,like he works for the NHL and so
like all these little extrathings that people do, which is,
(28:39):
you know, I, like I said youmentioned, I had another podcast
outside the classroom which waslike again, this goes back to
my my statement before aboutbeing an interesting person.
So these are interesting people, right, like they're not.
It's not just about what they doin the educations, like they're
they're.
They have interesting ideas andpassions and and and you know,
(28:59):
things they pursue outside that.
And then you know, like everyeducator, you make connections
between all that time I did thisoutside, like here's how it
relates, you never shut yourbrain off fully and they always
making those connections.
So that's, yeah, it's.
It's just been amazing to youknow, and I'm excited to kind of
keep going on it and sort ofexpanding the show.
But yeah, that's definitelybeen some highlights.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Do you have any guests that are coming down the
pipe that you can share with usthat you're excited about?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Well, she's not confirmed yet, so I'm not.
I want to say, just because I'mhopeful, she said she would do
it and we have to reconnect, butI don't know if you're familiar
with Nora Jones from CBC Spark.
Yes, you know that and again,like now I'm now I'm expanding
the definition of, you know, aneducational leader.
(29:51):
I mean, she's not in education,but you know, she's somebody
who's been producing contentthat all you know, if you're in
lots, of, lots of things.
Her topics are educationrelated and it's about
technology and its impact onsociety, which, just broadly
speaking, is education.
And so excited to do that and Ithink that's that's kind of
what I'm hoping, maybe in 2025is to add some people who aren't
(30:14):
typical educators, but peoplewho are influence, are
influencers in that space andpeople that we kind of look up
to.
So, yeah, that's somebody thatI'm looking forward to.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, Awesome, awesome.
Well, it's a great show.
I recommend listeners tosubscribe and check out the
Canadian Ed Leadership Show.
Great stuff on there already aton of episodes so you can go
back in time and spend a bit ofthe holiday season catching up
on some thoughts From play tojoy to love.
(30:48):
It's been a great conversation,dean.
I thank you so much for carvinga bit of time out and sharing
your thoughts.
It's been really fun talkingwith you, so thank you for
joining me.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Well, hey, thank you.
Thank you, chris, I appreciateyou Again.
I know you've done a lot ofgood work and I checked a number
of episodes of people that I'mpretty familiar with John
Spencer and George Koros and afew others that are good friends
of mine so it's great workyou're doing.
So I think there's there'snever enough of these for us to
(31:21):
do, for us to do and share andhighlight, um, you know, really
positive things in education.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So thank you for what you're doing, thank you for
having me on the show.
Oh, it's been a pleasure, realpleasure.
I wish you a great uh rest too,and holiday season, and, um, I
mean, keep fighting the goodfight and uh, this has been a
lot of fun.
So thanks again.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yes.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.