September 18, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of For Mannerless Women, host Adelle Onyango sits down with Ingashian Gibendi, product leader, founder of The Career Whisperer, and a bold advocate for women crafting careers on their own terms. Ingashian shares why rest is not laziness but a radical act of reclaiming power in a world that equates worth with constant work. From taking unplanned career breaks, to rejecting toxic workplace cultures, to choosing life before titles, she reminds us that women have the right to pause and that those pauses can be life-changing.
Together, they explore:
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Together, they explore:
- The lie that titles define success
- Career breaks as tools for healing and clarity
- How to embrace guilt-free rest and avoid burnout
- Why your life should come before your job description
- The hidden power of choosing partners who support your career wellbeing
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Share your story: forms.gle/kMn7Wae5N563JFGQ8
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to for Manalist Women.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm your host, Della on Jango, and this is a
space committed to nurturing a new generation of shame free
women who are ready to meet their best selves. In
this episode, we're hanging out with Ingushion Gibendi. She's a
product leader in the fintech space. She's also the founder
of the Career Whisperer and a bold voice when it
comes to women navigating their careers, ambition and identity. Was
(00:37):
welcome to for Manalists Women. You've been such a supporter
of all that we do at legally Cooless and you
spoke at our wellness talk and when I heard you speak,
I was like, I think after we recorded, I was
just like, we have another show.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
You seen Manalists. I was like, I can see the
mannerlessness in her.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And you do incredible work with just helping women navigate
careers in a way that's human, not in a very
like technical way. Of this is how you build your LinkedIn.
It's like looking at someone as a human first. So
thank you for all you do. But when we talk
about careers.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Right, I feel like that's one space that.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Forces us to be muted and to be nice and
to be accommodating and everything that we may not naturally
be so in that space, what does being maneralists mean
to you?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I'm being manalists. And when I had the name of
the show, I was like, this is this is right
up my alli. I have been called manaalists before, many
many times, and I think particularly when it comes to
how you show up in the work place, there is
an expectation of not just a woman, but Africans to
(01:57):
be a particular way at work. Supposed to be respectful
to authority, and what that means is, don't talk back,
don't when they don't question anything. You're supposed to just
follow the rules like a ship. In case you have opinions,
don't voice them. You're supposed to just be in the shadows, basically,
and the people who have employed you are in have
(02:20):
all the power and all the control, and you are
just sort of following whatever it is you're told to do.
And specifically for women, we are expected to even more
so be in the shadows. Leadership positions are for men,
or the person who's supposed to speak up is supposed
to be a man. The women are supposed to be
very like meek and quiet spirited.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And it's just a term that's like it sounds good,
but it's not God.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
And then and actually, when I was great, um like
maybe in UNI, because it was it was portrayed that's
such a positive thing. I wanted so desperately to be
quiet because I've always been loud and all, but that
wasn't attractive. Yeah, you know, like you know the gracious
men who just carry themselves with turn it down, turn
(03:11):
it down. And that expectation is not just in society,
it's also collect carries forward to work. Yeah, and that's
what being mannerleists sort of like means to me. Yeah. Yeah,
And it's so funny when I'm hearing you talk.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's just occurring to me because I worked in an
organization that had that very ineffective, toxic management style. And
when you looked at when I wanted to leave, there
were very many people telling me, oh, why don't you
apply to be a manager. And I said, when I
look at all the managers, they're doing what you're saying,
they're quiet spirited. And I said, I would never be
(03:49):
hired as a manager in this company like that would.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Just be a waste of my time, because.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Look, they want people who agree yeah all the time.
Do your job and go home only a wait, don't
be creative, don't be loud. Just take what I'm telling
you to do, do it and go, you know. And
so it's crazy that that that happens, right, But speaking
of you in terms of manager and all of these things,
I remember when I was leaving employment, I had to
(04:19):
do so much.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Work to try and figure out who.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Am I versus what do I do? And I was
doing this job that, like everybody else looks like it's
like glorias and prestigious and blah blah blah, and it's just.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Like, okay, but who am I like? And want to
keep on do?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Let's talk about how that line is blurred, especially for
women when we're trying to be career women and we're
chasing the titles.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yes, those lines can get blood right very easily. In fact,
if you think about how many times you're asked to
introduce yourself, try to do that without involving your career.
It's difficult. It's very hard. Yeah, who are you? Oh,
I'm the MD or engine about yourself? I studied engineering
(05:11):
and you're always introducing yourself or thinking about your identity
through the lens of what you do. But what you
do is just literally what you do for money. Yeah,
but it's not who you are. And that identity starts
being crafted from when you're in school, when they start
(05:33):
asking you, oh, what causes are you choosing?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
What are you going to? And that's who do you
want to be? Do you want to be an Oh,
I want to be a doctor. I want to be
If you say I want to be happy, what what
does that mean? Or like, what kind of impact do
you want to have the world. It's always like, I
want to like work an angel, and then like it's
always tied to what it is you do for money.
(05:59):
And that's what we realized careers are. They're just the
things you do to living. And like meets them as
that didn't give them too much and too much identity,
too much of your identity to work.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
This is interesting because I remember having this conversation with
another lady and she was unemployed for a long time,
and there's something she made me aware of. She said,
there's so much pressure even when you go home. And
she said, for example, Christmas, it's a Christmas gathering, there's
tons typical African Christmas gathering in Shanks. There's tons of
(06:36):
family and she's saying the parents are introducing the kids,
and they're like, this one is a doctor, this one
is an engineer.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
She's unemployed at this time. They pause at her and
they're like, well, she used to you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And she was like, it really makes you doubt who
you are or if you have any words?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, right, because not all of us. Then it's like,
oh God, like what what what am I doing? Exactly?
And when I when I when I took I've taken
a career break before you're going to talk about that.
But in that season, and I used to meet people
similar experiences for like what what what are you doing today?
What I'm doing nowadies? And there is so much power
in just owning the fact that I am here because
(07:20):
I've chosen to be here. I used to say, I'm
fun employed, Like what I'm there right now is fun.
I'm resting, you know, I'm in the period of just
chilling and reason and figuring it out. And that's okay,
and that should be normalized because you can't be you
can't be doctoring twenty four seven exactly the then you
die and the thing's over right.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And so if somebody is battling with trying to figure
out how to separate their identity from their titles, right,
either the titles they have or that they don't have.
Because also when you don't have the titles, you feel
like I'm nothing. Right, where's a good place to start?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, A good place to start is by start by
asking yourself, what kind of life do I really really want?
What is it that I'm looking like? If I didn't
have to worry about money, what would I do with
my day? Start there? Yeah, if you didn't have to
show up somewhere nine to five, what would your day
look like? I'd wake up in the morning, you'd go
(08:20):
for a walk. Maybe you have a dog, maybe not.
Maybe you'll have a garden. You'll be going and water
in that garden. Maybe you'll be walking to if you're
religious to chat? What would you be if you didn't
have to worry about mine? What your day looked like?
And once you write that down, and I often encourage
portray that down hour by hour. Oh wow, five am,
this is what I would do. Six am, this is
(08:40):
what I would do, and really like sit with it
and say, okay, this is really the life I want,
and then your career just fits in there somewhere. Yeah,
And you may realize your career is taking up a
lot more time than you wanted to because you're like,
I could have been I could have been jogging in Krula,
but no, I have to show up to my You're like,
(09:03):
you might realize that your career is taking up a
lot more time in your life than you wanted to.
And that's a good realization. But once you have that
written down on paper, it does tell you who you
are or who you'd like to be without it being
attached to your title.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
You know, this is reminded me about something you said
during our wellness talk.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Most of the times, this is no.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Shade to all our others because we love you, But
most of the times, like I check in for the introduction,
I hang on for a bit and then I leave.
But I stayed to the very end during your talk
because there was just like so much I was also learning, right,
And there's something you said that I think you need.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
To share with all the mindless women watching.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Is how we craft our lives to suit our career
when it should be vice versa.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Please break that down yeah, and again the good place
to start being like right down with the kind of
life you want, kind of day to day you want,
because you might realize that there is a much shorter
path to get into the life you want if you
stopped following your career and instead let your career follow you.
(10:21):
And I'll give you an example. So, for example, instead
of when I was younger, I used to chase certain jobs, yeah,
and there used to be like I want to work
for Facebook. Fan fact that you're actually interviewed for Facebook
great ability, Yeah, I want to work for Facebook, and
the jobs I was interviewing for all in Ireland. However
you pronounce that country. Never in my life have I
(10:43):
ever thought I want to live there. No, no, no, no, no no.
But the job is there, so.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
You would you're signing up for I'm ready, and I'm
really ready to stop everything, pack my bags and relocate
for the job.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Is what a lot of us think about our careers,
as like I want that job, and I will do
whatever I need to do and ad just my life
and just my situation to be able to go for
that job. But since I have really really like turned
that on its head and thought, what kind of like
do I want or what I want? I want flexibility.
I want to be there for my family. I want
(11:21):
to have to take out my dog. I want to
be able to be present for my child and my husband.
And this is the life. I want to have a
house with a garden where I can host my family
members every so often. I want to travel for holidays
because traveling for work is not it. I want to
travel for I want to travel for holiday like twice
(11:41):
or twice a year. And this is the life I want.
And then I wrote down what are all the careers
that can support this life? So it comes after, it
comes after, okay, because then I'm thinking if I became
the CEO of Safaricom, that doesn't really support this life. Yeah,
so then the life that you want gets distarted. Then
(12:04):
that also called you know, it seems like something that
we're told to aim for all our lives. It's the title.
It's the title. Yeah, but like think about see those
guys they don't really have a life. Yeah, that's the
that's the reality. That's what you're signing that's what you're
signing up for. And it's the same way like when
I hear pos things like I want to found a company. Oh,
I want to leave employment to found a company. I'm like, guys,
(12:25):
care not to speak is beautiful, but remember what you're
signing up for is that for the next five years. Yes,
you need to realize your life is going to be
very different and you're going to not sleep. You want
to be taking on seventy five different jobs, So you
(12:47):
have to You have to be aware of the kind
of life you want and only take careers that support
that life. Otherwise you're always your your life is always
chasing your career, and then you're unfulfilled and you're unhappy,
you're burnt out, and you're constantly wondering, like what's wrong?
And I'm getting the money. Yeah, you know, but the
(13:08):
fantastic of money. And try your title first of all. Yeah,
I always tell this story because it's like, in twenty
twenty twenty one, my title at work was vice president.
I was a VP. Did you use it? Then your side?
(13:28):
I am? I am the VP operations And in that
time my phone was busy, My DMS and LinkedIn were
like please mentor me. You know, how did you get here?
You know, you must be such a successful passner because
of the title and then the next job I moved to,
(13:52):
my title was product manager. I went from VP to manager,
which is a look at by go like product we
paid okay, product manager? What is this? And when I
went to a PM role, people stopped caring as much.
(14:12):
There's no mentorship, you're not as successful. What people don't
know is that these two jobs. This job, the PM
job was paying me three x what this job was
paying me. Oh wow, the responsibilities in this job, I
was responsible for two markets. In this job for five markets. Wow.
(14:33):
In this both jobs, I was reportting up to the
CEO and so technically like it was one level below
the ce in both positions. And that's all to say.
Titles mean absolutely nothing. They are just and smaller companies
often give you bigger titles. Yeah, and and sometimes a
(14:54):
PM in one company does completely different things from a
PM in another company. The title itself, even in your
job hunting and going to like I'm looking for product
management jobs, that means nothing. In fact, pms are made
up title and just like they're all made up. Titles
are created when people sit down in a room that like,
we need to hire for this gap, what do we
(15:14):
call it? Yeah? Does this person do okay, they manage
product that doesn't seem right. We want to attract and
this is how we think about it. We're like, we
want to attract a certain type of person. Maybe we
should make it director. But it actually means nothing. And
so just that like realization of you're just chasing this
(15:36):
title and chasing this title. You need to detach from
that completely because it doesn't really define the career you do.
It also doesn't define how much you paid, and it
doesn't define how your life looks.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Like this is so interesting because if you work at
the wrong company, those titles can be used to stroke
your ego in a very manipulative way when really nothing
contractually has changed. So I know, for example, there were
spaces that works in where they would you have different
radio presenters.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
And then if you maybe it looks like you have
a lot more.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Energy, more exact, they're like, oh, you are a senior
present and I'd always be like, what is that? But literally, like,
my hours haven't changed, my pay hasn't changed. I'm just like,
so senior sounds like you guys, that presents me a
senior present, But the other presenters are so important, the
(16:36):
HR or the or the program's head.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So I'm just like, what is the senior thing? You
guys are saying what is what is it?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And yeah, So you have to really detach from titles
because you can find yourself being manipulated to overwork, yeah,
with minimals.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And also it affects how your job hunt, because if
you're a manager today, you're only looking for certain titles.
You're looking for senior manager, you're looking for heads, head
of head of something you're looking for. But those titles
mean such different things across organizations that they shouldn't be
leading your job such otherwise you're completely lost.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It should be the life that you want to create
for yourself and the career that can support that life.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
And the only way to know is to have lots
of conversations and network, Okay, because then I can ask
you in this company of yours, there was one of
my younger names, and then you'll tell me all they
actually their day to day job is to pay the walls.
I actually am not in painting wall. And then you
(17:41):
start start learning about what people do in their in
their in their companies fast before you go like, I
just want to be a director at that company, you know,
because what do I mean to anybody, even even like preferences.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Now, obviously COVID gave us, uh this perfect I found
out I would rather work remotely.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I definitely the life I want. There are very few.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Employment rules that can support that in the field that you're.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
In that I'm in. And so I think I stumbled
into what you're saying. It was not I was not clever.
It's suddenly because clever.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But yeah, it's just understanding that actually, this is what
I'm more good for in.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Terms of the life that I want and even personality.
Can I challenge that mindset a little bit? Oh god,
not to be employed? But sometimes we think like that,
we're like, yeah, the career I'm in, very few employers
can support the life I want. Is that a fact?
(18:45):
It's it's a perception. I'm decided looked at the five
companies you know, and the two that the experience exactly,
and you've decided that very few mon that mean because
I always say that careers are depending into bubbles, and
you can be in a bubble you want to be, Yeah,
(19:05):
you can be in that bubble where job that's cuss. Yeah,
it's possible. You can be in that bubble were like
employ and whatever. You just have to find the right bubble. Actually,
it's true. You have challenged my mindset. And there's another thing.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
You always say that actually could even challenge it further.
There's a question you pose, which is like, how many
companies do you think they're in the world WLD And
I'm actually thinking of companies in I ruby, yeah, and
not in them.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, there's like three on one roads.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And so as soon as we do that, right, we
really minimize to what we can see, which is true.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Okay, yeah, yeah, you're around me, so I can tell
you that that they definitely exists companies in your in
your field of work that will support remote work. They exist,
and once you have that mindset shift, you start looking
for them. Where are they? And you start seeing this,
You start seeing them. Yeah, this is interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And it's our mindset that drives our behaviors in terms
of like job hunting or even like if you're an entrepreneur,
it's it's your habits come after what you believe, right, Yeah,
tell me about something I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Struggling with.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Other than mind set, man, Like, it's it's guilt free rest.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I was reading.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Homebody, which is a book by one of my favorite poets, Rupie,
and she actually writes about when you see poets writing
about something, you know, you know minor.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Like there's a hunting there, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Know there's a problem we're dealing with about productivity anxiety.
And I bookmarks that page because I was like, I
have to keep coming back to this because it's.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Just so hard for me to rest without like two.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Hours into rest, just feel guilt big, Like that's that
you're telling me today.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I've done nothing. And even when I left, when I
first left employment to go into it into business.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I would actually say, do you know how much employee
people have done by noon?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And you have just sent you an email? You know
that storry for the rich people who woke up at
four the.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Try that myself granted, at least my tone has become better,
but I still have and I you know.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
There's this other rational voice that's like, dude, you're tired.
Imagine it's not that deep, You're just tired.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
How do we break out of that bubble and allow
ourselves to rest without feeling like we're not worthy because
our self worth is like tied to how hard we're working.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, however, realize is that employment is the only institution
or careers, even if much employment, even entrepreneurship. It's the
only societal institution ever since you were born that doesn't
have built in rest. When you went in to school,
there was tim bricks for everyone. Everybody holds a home.
(22:19):
Universities have long breaks in between well before the like
trimester situations, but five month breaks while I was in
UNI in between. And then you're go into work and
there's no bricks. Yeah, you work Monday to Monday every
day of the year for the rest of your life.
And you even have to lie. You have to take
(22:41):
a break, to take a break, look for a doctor.
You know, I'm exposing myself to write true and it's
just not human in nature to not rest. Yeah. You
know the one thing I keep telling my client and
when we're not talking about them wanting to rest first,
(23:02):
I tell them, remember, you have permission to rest. If
nobody has ever given you permission, I am giving you
permission to rest. Resting is something that you don't necessarily
have to earn. It is something that you must do.
It's a necessity for you to succeed and to thrive
and to be healthy and you need to rest. It's
(23:24):
not that it's like a reward to the work that
you've done. Secondly, the idea that taking a break is
equal to un productivity is a lie.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Oh my god, yes, because I feel that and I
would sometimes tell myself that, like, you're not being productive?
What is this?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Rest is pro active? And all of you know this
because every time you take a break, you come back
feeling rejuvenated. You are more creative. True, you are. You
are able to perform better at work once you've had
a period of rest. But if you don't rest, the
(24:08):
opposite is true. You then are burnt out. You are
just getting through the day. You are checking off to
do lists. You are not as productive at work. If
you're not productive in rest, you have to rest. The
two ways are normally encourageable to feed in rest if
you're employed, is to book that rest ahead of time,
(24:31):
not to wait until you're tired to then take a break. Yeah.
So every year I have a leave calendar that I
put out. We have one for this year as well,
and it's just like, this is what I recommend your
live is to look like because it feeds in every quarter.
You're taking a break at deliberate brick and you are
planning to take it ahead of time and then finding
things to do at that points instead of waiting to
(24:54):
get tired and then thinking, let me go to Mombassad
for every day. Because at that point it's counterproductive because
burnout is not burnout cannot be cured by a one
week holiday. Yeah, but bot can be prevented by very
clearly scheduled one week holidays throughout the year. You can
prevent the burnout. So take the rest intentionally, deliberately plant
(25:17):
ahead of time, Yeah, and then take it regard. But
if it means taking it and stick in your house
and looking at your plans, you don't have to have
plans to be ruined that, yeah, it doesn't count because
then when you make it that people like you know,
take the government has put it in the law that
you need to take a break. And it perplexes me
(25:39):
that people have one hundred days and taken like you
have been backing up days, backing up there the five years.
You know, you're just giving the employer free money exactly,
So plan to take the rest. The second way I
encourage you to like feeding the rest, is planned to
take a long break every five to ten years, a
long break out of the loans. Oh okay, a couple
(26:00):
of months, three months minimums. You've said it in like
my anxiety and that's gone now because I'm just like
and we will be doing production. You see where we go.
So you've planned to take the break and so the
production will work around. So it actually works better even
the pre planned lead days. What's better because when they're
planning to give you that project in Uganda, you tell them,
(26:21):
on this date, I'm not there. When they're planning to
do performance reviews, you're like, on this date, I'm not there,
so we need to start them the next week. Otherwise
you're playing catch up. You're like, I haven't yet trusted.
Things have been crazy, so I haven't tested. Things are
crazy because you did not plan to rest, plan to rest,
(26:42):
and then walk around that. Everything will now be planned
around and planned around that.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Why do you feel like it's important to take the
long break because I think most of the times when
we talk.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
About rests, we talk about the short bests of it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So why do you think the career breaks, if we
can them, are like so important?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
The main reason is as human beings, our lives are
always evolving, and the challenge of being stuck in your
day to day is it becomes almost second nature to
you that you wake up in the morning, you come
for a shoot, you do the shoot, you go home,
you do the thing that you're supposed to do. It
becomes second nature. You never have time to pose reevaluate.
(27:26):
Is this still the life I want? Yeah? Because the
thing about life is that the life you wanted that
twenty is not the same life you want at thirty five.
Even not twenty five. You' the same life you want
when you have kids, Yeah, the same life. Life has seasons,
and if you don't you're not posing and evaluating your
career fits your current season. Then again, my man. Yeah,
(27:50):
but then you get to a point you're like, why
am I so unfulfilled? Like I wanted this when I
was twenty eight, twenty seven. Yeah, I remember praying five
for a job that will give me travel. I was like,
I just travel, and then I traveled the year after.
(28:13):
I used to come home to pack my suitcase and
I rely for my visa and go. Yeah, I traveled.
I think I was like seventy percent of my ear
I was out of the country right now in the
season i'm in right now, I am constantly pushing off travel.
I'm like, oh, do that trip? Do I have to go?
(28:34):
Can I can somebody else go on? My behalf? Because
the season i'm in now, I have a little baby.
Now think about travel. You have to think what was
this baby? Yeah? You have to figure out pumping schedules
across the several counties and several time zones. You're flying
for nine hours is I'm not acceptable? So the season
I'm in right now, if I had kept that job,
(28:58):
I would be buried from planning. Yeah. So you have
to constantly be like, Okay, I have done the things,
the goal has been achieved. Do I still want that?
Is my life still accommodating of that? Yeah? And then
now the job I want now is a remote job
(29:20):
that allows me flexibility to be a present parent. I
have one goal to be a present parent. That's it.
And everything else is secondary, every including the money. Yeah,
it's secondary. Yeah, because if then then this is the
will end. Yeah, the children will grow up and then
I'd like, now I did not vot you that I
(29:41):
want to go, but I want like to relocate the country.
So you have to That's why career breaks are important.
So you took a career break. I took a career break.
How long was it? A six month career brick? Okay?
It was unt planned? Okay, And this is why I
keep telling you what to planned the career break my
career because unplanned. I took the break. I lost my
dad and for the first time in my life, I
(30:03):
could not work. I had been working, you know, like
my namer system just stopped. And I used to go
for meetings and the entire meeting and I just couldn't function.
And so I remember that time my manager asked me,
We're willing to give you as much time as you need,
just tell us how much. And I was like, I
don't know how much time I need, and so and
(30:26):
I can't prom I can't keep you on edge like this.
So I took a break the in the beginning of like,
I want to allow myself financially a one year brick.
But let's see how we're feeling. It was very, very unplanned,
and in those six months, the first two months were rough.
The identity thing is real. The productivity I had. I
(30:48):
used to wake up on a Monday and stay at
my wall. Yeah, I'm like can I watch Netflix work tomorrow?
Like I can't? And then I was so free It's
to be with my friends. And then a day kneting,
then I'm like, why, oh, it's Wednesday. And those those
(31:09):
first two months, I actually almost went into depression because
of the It was a very dramatic, like ye in Nashia,
and it's like when you're moving so far and then
you stop. And I just was pushed pulled that back
so hard. But then from month three, when I embraced it,
I decided, you know what, what are all the things
(31:30):
I wanted to do with my life and I couldn't
do because I was working. I wanted to nap on
a Monday, hat too. I created a schedule. I had
my career break schedule, and the goal is like, have
nothing productive in that schedule, nothing productive in the side.
That's all I wanted to I have know for that.
It was like Monday career Rise, to go to career
(31:51):
every single day. Can you imagine the dream? I miss it? Okay,
I was like just knitting, painting. I was going. I
was calling my sister on that Wednesday, I'm like, what
are you doing? I'm coming for dinner. I would drive
to her house for dinner. I was visiting my friends.
I had a call my grandmother, how are you doing
(32:13):
an unproductive calendar? And when I embraced the rest, that
is when the real transformation happened. That's when I started
questioning and wondering, like the life I have built this
is really what? Maybe I just don't like watching the
life I want the problem. Maybe this is the life
(32:33):
I wanted and the employer that I was with even
though that job was my dream job. Before I left,
I told my dream job it was the most money
I've ever been paid. It was like, you know, all
the things you imagine as a little girl, as a
little Kenyan girl, that you can never achieve. That job
allowed me to achieve that. So it was very hard
(32:54):
to leave. And after those three months I didn't have
the opportunity to go back, but I was like, actually,
this job doesn't is not helping me build the life
I want. That's now clear. It was because of this.
It was this break allowed me to now think about, like,
what do I really really really want? So when I
built the career with Spara, it was built in that
(33:17):
season of just like I really I'm really passionate about this.
I've always found myself gravitating towards helping people build better careers.
I'm not a hit manager, I don't have any skin
in that game, but I'm really every job I've done,
every role of health, I found myself leaning towards company culture,
typework or like you know, mindset shift work or helping
(33:38):
pus find their voices at work and finding their power
at work, every single role of health. And I was like,
this is something I really really enjoyed doing. And when
I wrote my hour by hour thing, I had two
hours in there atop some women and just like teach
them what I know real And that's when I built
the career whisperer. This is so incredible. And during the
career break, what was the react of the people around me?
(34:02):
From the people around you? Because this is something that
maybe not many people do. Yeah, So when I when
I the thing that triggered the decision to leave the
company was that my role was changing and I needed
to relocate to Uganda, not even to a market that
had operations, and the company didn't have operations Ingain and
so I need to pick a market. The Ganda was
the closest one and at that time, I was like,
(34:25):
what do I need my life right now? I need
to be present from my family. We're all going through grief.
I needed to be to be close to my support system,
my therapist, my boyfriend at the time, my you know,
like this, I need to be close to my support system.
I need to take out my dog. I had a dog, Yeah,
a little puppy. I was like, who's going to take
out this dog? I needed to to And there was
also like I want to a living and I want
to contribute meaningfully. It is, but the im locating wasn't
(34:49):
going to support that. And so the decision and I
was making it. I was my mom. I was my
mom and my friends and everybody was around me when
I try to make the decision because we're all in
the grief season. And my mom was like, you is
not that far. Yeah, now you'll stop and do what
then you'll be on break doing nothing? Yeah? I was like,
that's your nothing. Yes. It was not a decision, but
(35:16):
many people understood or supported the uncertainty of what will
What if you never get a job that pays you
as much? What if you never get a job that
you love as much? Yeah? I didn't realize in the
crabic they even't love it that much. I didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I just was I like groomed to love a job
that looked like like that, automatically I should love it exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
So it was it was a lot of uncertainty around, like, oh,
this is going to be the worst decision for your career,
and I film sometimes that that that talk entered my head.
I was like, maybe I'll never find an employer that
pays me that much. Yeah, oh the country the world
is made up of three hundred billion people billion, or
(36:04):
there'd a million companies. Yeah, there's going to be one.
I just need one that will pay the same amount.
So I think that transformation happening in the career break
really made it clear for me the kinds of employers
I was looking at next And I paid for it, yeah,
because when I when I when I took my next offer,
(36:27):
I took a picqut. But that paycard was well worth
it because now it's supported the life I wanted. Yeah,
because I was able to work. It was I kep
saying my glorious independent contributor year. Yeah, I was not
managing any teams. I had very clearly scopt work I
was working managing like six hours on a bad day,
(36:50):
I had. The focast I had was great.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
I took several three week holidays in that year and
I needed that, Yeah, because I was still healing. I
was still like recovering. I needed that year to look
like that, and it was perfect.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
You know, like I'm listening to your talk and I'm
just realizing how crazy the employment space is and has
been normalized as far as rest is concern. Because when
I lost my mom, I was working at.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
A radio station. I took two or three weeks off.
You've just married at that point, and then you know,
I'm general, yes, so you had new marriage, anti marriage.
There's no money a month. It takes two weeks. That's
settle in to know, oh, and it's really happened here.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
And then I went back to work like I was
on air, and I would be like, you know, speaking
to everybody's listening, and like when the mic.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Is off, like crying, crying, crying, and a few I
want to say a few months afterwards. I don't know
how long. I moved to a new company, right, and
so I just kept working so.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Exactly and then and maybe someone watching this has the
same culture where they work.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
When the HR manager is telling you, yeah you should,
you still have so many leave days. You have not
taken you leave days, but your line manager is not
allowing you to take leave. And then what happens is
you end up sick. Right, And I thought about this
the other day.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I started whenever I get sick, I would feel like
a failure, like my I've done something young, like how.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
To get a homer, and like it's only now that
I'm like, goodness, you people get sing. So it's just
like our relationship with rest.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
In the employment space and I honestly just across the
board is really not it's not serving us.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
There's something you've said. And this is another like thing
that taking back power in your own carriage is very
important because your line money rest is your right, it
is your legal right. Your line manager refusing to sign
that live form is illegal. I wish I would have
(39:22):
in jail strategy, strate to jail when when when I
book my leave days, I don't ask you inform. See,
we all have the second mine. These are the ones
that are taking and and and you know, and you
know the thing about doing that is because you wanted
(39:43):
to have been planned that fast. Yeah, so you know
that's on the twenty eighth of July. I remember the media,
and unless it's stainly not pre planned. Yeah, so at
that point you're taking back the power. You say, you
said the days I'm taking off. Yeah, so that you
are aware and that when you're planning whatever you're planning,
you need to plum around those days because rest is
(40:03):
your right and you need to take the rest and
not to be given the rest, or to be allowed
the rest by your employers.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
But that.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Like that mindset, even manager that we have bad managers, Yeah, please,
they were also managed like that. They don't know how
they are happening Ford, So like, yeah, just being being
able to like that little shift in rest is my right.
I am going to take it and sometimes I'm going
to take it. I'm paid. If I'm finished my twenty
one days, I'm taking three more days, but I paid,
(40:32):
like I'll just cat and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
And also knowing that nothing is going to burn nothing.
Imagine you know things will be the same when you
come back.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
I assure you. I guarantee, I guarantee it.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
What do you think is the one thing as we
wind up that is so important for women to know
in terms of their career based on what we've talked
about from my identity tot to the career breaks, like
that's so incredible to building a life that then your
career fits into.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
What is what is important for women to know? I'd
say the most important thing to know is for a
lot of us, our careers are happening to us and
then they're defiling our lives for us. Yeah, so you
end up you end up up in a career you're
in because that's what the government told you to go
(41:31):
and do. Yeah, because you graduated UNI. You don't take
leave because your manager has said no to the leave
this you or because the company doesn't have a built
in three months three month break you know, the company
I don't support that, or you know, like you're taking
like I am on maternity leave right now, and before
this year, my company's policy was maternitally was three months law.
(41:54):
When I got pregned last year, when I was talking
to my manager, I told her I am taking six months.
I am plan forming to take six months. Does the
company support that or not? Because I am going to
prepare myself financially for any outcome but my plan is
to take that my life is being to take a
break for six months, and that then gives me power
(42:17):
and control over my own rest. And that's the one takeaway.
Remember that you really truly have the power to craft
and control the career you want because your career is
just a part of your life. Don't you find that
we go in that's so powerful.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
We go in with a scarcity mentality because of how
we look at even like what I was saying earlier,
like there's no company that's going.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
To support the life I want. That's the scarcity there.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, right, So I think we hold on and follow
whatever this career is saying, yeah we're great because it's like, oh,
we do need this one.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, you know, and you will shock your employers. I
promise you. I guarantee it when you tell your employer
as the things that you want. But then you will
discover something that careers employers all those people are people.
There are human beings. All those decisions you think HR
policies came from where from a HR person or like
from the leadership of the company. And there's there's a
(43:17):
power in having that example of if you were able
to get away with it. Yeah, why can't I? Yeah,
why can't I be? Those examples start by just taking
power in your rest, taking power in your career, and
ensuring that it's like it's like following your life and
not the other way around. It's taking power in the
(43:39):
kind of your job descriptions. Job descriptions are fluid. I
keep saying everything in your career, everything is negotiable, Nothing
is hardcast in stone, because all those systems, all those cultures,
all those situations were created by people. And if there's
one thing about people, they are fluid. These are spectrum
(44:00):
of options. It can move, it's moldable, it's do you know.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
I was going to wrap up, but I forgot to
ask you something so important, and it's something that you've
said so beautifully, and I just think it would be
terrible if you don't say it. When we're talking about
the life we create and identities and all of these things,
relationships and how the partner you choose, Yeah, impacts your career.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah, we don't seem to ever want to go there.
That's you know, for and this is going to be
a sexistick, but that's my position. Men often don't have
to think about their spouses when it comes to their
careers most of the time, because the expectation from society
(44:52):
is that men will go and work. Yeah, and if
them whatever job they choose, the woman will do what
support of fle you know, your support your But if
somebody needs to quit their job, it's you. Yeah, it's somebody.
If somebody needs to be at home to hot meal,
is you're going. Yeah, you're going. Like one of my
(45:14):
best friends just relocated and her husband moved for her
and even blowing everybody's mind because the expectation in society
is that women in marriages and relationships are just to
support the man's career because he's the vision bearer or
financial honner all that stuff. So even more importantly for women,
(45:34):
the partner you choose to spend your life with, or
whatever season of life you choose to spend their life with,
has such a big impact on your well being and
your career well being. Your well being, I don't have
to explain, Yeah, your career will be in resting or
not your career well being. Yeah. Again, with the mindset
(45:58):
of like you know, men, I'm not like that city
you need to enter the partner choosing your field, the
playgrounds the ground, realizing that the life you want there
is a partner that can support that life, and you
need to choose that partner very very carefully. If you
(46:21):
are planning over here to be a remote worker, who
is you know, sometimes we're going for walks and runs
and still running that company it and you have a
partner who expects you to be laboring from six am
to seven am at home. Something will have to give.
(46:42):
And many times that thing that is giving is your career.
When you're choosing and defining and writing down about your
life right down the kind of partner that will support
that life as well as the employer that will support
that life, because those two inputs are the employer unfortunately
is a smaller voice or fortunately yeah, a smaller voice
(47:05):
than your partner. Yeah, And so having that partner who
will support that is very very important. Choose partners who
will enable you to have the kind of life that
you live, that you want to live, because that is
often the piece that is breaking with And thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
I'm so happy that we got to talk on that,
because when we talk about careers, we never touch I
think we segment life so much and we forget their
path that influence the others, right, and then thank you
for the work that you do and Gosha and like,
the Career Whisperer is just changing so many lives and
so it's.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
An honor to have you on the show. I love
being here as a mana lestuman. Yeah it's finally a compliment.
Oh yeah, not now, it's more than anything. You like,
I really really want to be quiet. Yeah, I'm like no,
when I enter our room, I'm loud. I'm loud. I
love it.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
And so if you check out the description of this episode,
there are resources and links for you to connect with
the career with Ferr and get some coaching if you
want to understand more about your mindset, what you need
to embrace when going into the career and the life
that you want to build for yourself. But thank you
so much for watching this episode and being part of
(48:23):
this community. Don't forget to like share it with all
the manalists and almost manalists women in your life and
be here next week for the next episode.
Welcome to for Manalist Women.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm your host, Della on Jango, and this is a
space committed to nurturing a new generation of shame free
women who are ready to meet their best selves. In
this episode, we're hanging out with Ingushion Gibendi. She's a
product leader in the fintech space. She's also the founder
of the Career Whisperer and a bold voice when it
comes to women navigating their careers, ambition and identity. Was
(00:37):
welcome to for Manalists Women. You've been such a supporter
of all that we do at legally Cooless and you
spoke at our wellness talk and when I heard you speak,
I was like, I think after we recorded, I was
just like, we have another show.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
You seen Manalists. I was like, I can see the
mannerlessness in her.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And you do incredible work with just helping women navigate
careers in a way that's human, not in a very
like technical way. Of this is how you build your LinkedIn.
It's like looking at someone as a human first. So
thank you for all you do. But when we talk
about careers.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Right, I feel like that's one space that.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Forces us to be muted and to be nice and
to be accommodating and everything that we may not naturally
be so in that space, what does being maneralists mean
to you?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I'm being manalists. And when I had the name of
the show, I was like, this is this is right
up my alli. I have been called manaalists before, many
many times, and I think particularly when it comes to
how you show up in the work place, there is
an expectation of not just a woman, but Africans to
(01:57):
be a particular way at work. Supposed to be respectful
to authority, and what that means is, don't talk back,
don't when they don't question anything. You're supposed to just
follow the rules like a ship. In case you have opinions,
don't voice them. You're supposed to just be in the shadows, basically,
and the people who have employed you are in have
(02:20):
all the power and all the control, and you are
just sort of following whatever it is you're told to do.
And specifically for women, we are expected to even more
so be in the shadows. Leadership positions are for men,
or the person who's supposed to speak up is supposed
to be a man. The women are supposed to be
very like meek and quiet spirited.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And it's just a term that's like it sounds good,
but it's not God.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
And then and actually, when I was great, um like
maybe in UNI, because it was it was portrayed that's
such a positive thing. I wanted so desperately to be
quiet because I've always been loud and all, but that
wasn't attractive. Yeah, you know, like you know the gracious
men who just carry themselves with turn it down, turn
(03:11):
it down. And that expectation is not just in society,
it's also collect carries forward to work. Yeah, and that's
what being mannerleists sort of like means to me. Yeah. Yeah,
And it's so funny when I'm hearing you talk.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's just occurring to me because I worked in an
organization that had that very ineffective, toxic management style. And
when you looked at when I wanted to leave, there
were very many people telling me, oh, why don't you
apply to be a manager. And I said, when I
look at all the managers, they're doing what you're saying,
they're quiet spirited. And I said, I would never be
(03:49):
hired as a manager in this company like that would.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Just be a waste of my time, because.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Look, they want people who agree yeah all the time.
Do your job and go home only a wait, don't
be creative, don't be loud. Just take what I'm telling
you to do, do it and go, you know. And
so it's crazy that that that happens, right, But speaking
of you in terms of manager and all of these things,
I remember when I was leaving employment, I had to
(04:19):
do so much.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Work to try and figure out who.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Am I versus what do I do? And I was
doing this job that, like everybody else looks like it's
like glorias and prestigious and blah blah blah, and it's just.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Like, okay, but who am I like? And want to
keep on do?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Let's talk about how that line is blurred, especially for
women when we're trying to be career women and we're
chasing the titles.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yes, those lines can get blood right very easily. In fact,
if you think about how many times you're asked to
introduce yourself, try to do that without involving your career.
It's difficult. It's very hard. Yeah, who are you? Oh,
I'm the MD or engine about yourself? I studied engineering
(05:11):
and you're always introducing yourself or thinking about your identity
through the lens of what you do. But what you
do is just literally what you do for money. Yeah,
but it's not who you are. And that identity starts
being crafted from when you're in school, when they start
(05:33):
asking you, oh, what causes are you choosing?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
What are you going to? And that's who do you
want to be? Do you want to be an Oh,
I want to be a doctor. I want to be
If you say I want to be happy, what what
does that mean? Or like, what kind of impact do
you want to have the world. It's always like, I
want to like work an angel, and then like it's
always tied to what it is you do for money.
(05:59):
And that's what we realized careers are. They're just the
things you do to living. And like meets them as
that didn't give them too much and too much identity,
too much of your identity to work.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
This is interesting because I remember having this conversation with
another lady and she was unemployed for a long time,
and there's something she made me aware of. She said,
there's so much pressure even when you go home. And
she said, for example, Christmas, it's a Christmas gathering, there's
tons typical African Christmas gathering in Shanks. There's tons of
(06:36):
family and she's saying the parents are introducing the kids,
and they're like, this one is a doctor, this one
is an engineer.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
She's unemployed at this time. They pause at her and
they're like, well, she used to you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And she was like, it really makes you doubt who
you are or if you have any words?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, right, because not all of us. Then it's like,
oh God, like what what what am I doing? Exactly?
And when I when I when I took I've taken
a career break before you're going to talk about that.
But in that season, and I used to meet people
similar experiences for like what what what are you doing today?
What I'm doing nowadies? And there is so much power
in just owning the fact that I am here because
(07:20):
I've chosen to be here. I used to say, I'm
fun employed, Like what I'm there right now is fun.
I'm resting, you know, I'm in the period of just
chilling and reason and figuring it out. And that's okay,
and that should be normalized because you can't be you
can't be doctoring twenty four seven exactly the then you
die and the thing's over right.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And so if somebody is battling with trying to figure
out how to separate their identity from their titles, right,
either the titles they have or that they don't have.
Because also when you don't have the titles, you feel
like I'm nothing. Right, where's a good place to start?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, A good place to start is by start by
asking yourself, what kind of life do I really really want?
What is it that I'm looking like? If I didn't
have to worry about money, what would I do with
my day? Start there? Yeah, if you didn't have to
show up somewhere nine to five, what would your day
look like? I'd wake up in the morning, you'd go
(08:20):
for a walk. Maybe you have a dog, maybe not.
Maybe you'll have a garden. You'll be going and water
in that garden. Maybe you'll be walking to if you're
religious to chat? What would you be if you didn't
have to worry about mine? What your day looked like?
And once you write that down, and I often encourage
portray that down hour by hour. Oh wow, five am,
this is what I would do. Six am, this is
(08:40):
what I would do, and really like sit with it
and say, okay, this is really the life I want,
and then your career just fits in there somewhere. Yeah,
And you may realize your career is taking up a
lot more time than you wanted to because you're like,
I could have been I could have been jogging in Krula,
but no, I have to show up to my You're like,
(09:03):
you might realize that your career is taking up a
lot more time in your life than you wanted to.
And that's a good realization. But once you have that
written down on paper, it does tell you who you
are or who you'd like to be without it being
attached to your title.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
You know, this is reminded me about something you said
during our wellness talk.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Most of the times, this is no.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Shade to all our others because we love you, But
most of the times, like I check in for the introduction,
I hang on for a bit and then I leave.
But I stayed to the very end during your talk
because there was just like so much I was also learning, right,
And there's something you said that I think you need.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
To share with all the mindless women watching.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Is how we craft our lives to suit our career
when it should be vice versa.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Please break that down yeah, and again the good place
to start being like right down with the kind of
life you want, kind of day to day you want,
because you might realize that there is a much shorter
path to get into the life you want if you
stopped following your career and instead let your career follow you.
(10:21):
And I'll give you an example. So, for example, instead
of when I was younger, I used to chase certain jobs, yeah,
and there used to be like I want to work
for Facebook. Fan fact that you're actually interviewed for Facebook
great ability, Yeah, I want to work for Facebook, and
the jobs I was interviewing for all in Ireland. However
you pronounce that country. Never in my life have I
(10:43):
ever thought I want to live there. No, no, no, no, no no.
But the job is there, so.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
You would you're signing up for I'm ready, and I'm
really ready to stop everything, pack my bags and relocate
for the job.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Is what a lot of us think about our careers,
as like I want that job, and I will do
whatever I need to do and ad just my life
and just my situation to be able to go for
that job. But since I have really really like turned
that on its head and thought, what kind of like
do I want or what I want? I want flexibility.
I want to be there for my family. I want
(11:21):
to have to take out my dog. I want to
be able to be present for my child and my husband.
And this is the life. I want to have a
house with a garden where I can host my family
members every so often. I want to travel for holidays
because traveling for work is not it. I want to
travel for I want to travel for holiday like twice
(11:41):
or twice a year. And this is the life I want.
And then I wrote down what are all the careers
that can support this life? So it comes after, it
comes after, okay, because then I'm thinking if I became
the CEO of Safaricom, that doesn't really support this life. Yeah,
so then the life that you want gets distarted. Then
(12:04):
that also called you know, it seems like something that
we're told to aim for all our lives. It's the title.
It's the title. Yeah, but like think about see those
guys they don't really have a life. Yeah, that's the
that's the reality. That's what you're signing that's what you're
signing up for. And it's the same way like when
I hear pos things like I want to found a company. Oh,
I want to leave employment to found a company. I'm like, guys,
(12:25):
care not to speak is beautiful, but remember what you're
signing up for is that for the next five years. Yes,
you need to realize your life is going to be
very different and you're going to not sleep. You want
to be taking on seventy five different jobs, So you
(12:47):
have to You have to be aware of the kind
of life you want and only take careers that support
that life. Otherwise you're always your your life is always
chasing your career, and then you're unfulfilled and you're unhappy,
you're burnt out, and you're constantly wondering, like what's wrong?
And I'm getting the money. Yeah, you know, but the
(13:08):
fantastic of money. And try your title first of all. Yeah,
I always tell this story because it's like, in twenty
twenty twenty one, my title at work was vice president.
I was a VP. Did you use it? Then your side?
(13:28):
I am? I am the VP operations And in that
time my phone was busy, My DMS and LinkedIn were
like please mentor me. You know, how did you get here?
You know, you must be such a successful passner because
of the title and then the next job I moved to,
(13:52):
my title was product manager. I went from VP to manager,
which is a look at by go like product we
paid okay, product manager? What is this? And when I
went to a PM role, people stopped caring as much.
(14:12):
There's no mentorship, you're not as successful. What people don't
know is that these two jobs. This job, the PM
job was paying me three x what this job was
paying me. Oh wow, the responsibilities in this job, I
was responsible for two markets. In this job for five markets. Wow.
(14:33):
In this both jobs, I was reportting up to the
CEO and so technically like it was one level below
the ce in both positions. And that's all to say.
Titles mean absolutely nothing. They are just and smaller companies
often give you bigger titles. Yeah, and and sometimes a
(14:54):
PM in one company does completely different things from a
PM in another company. The title itself, even in your
job hunting and going to like I'm looking for product
management jobs, that means nothing. In fact, pms are made
up title and just like they're all made up. Titles
are created when people sit down in a room that like,
we need to hire for this gap, what do we
(15:14):
call it? Yeah? Does this person do okay, they manage
product that doesn't seem right. We want to attract and
this is how we think about it. We're like, we
want to attract a certain type of person. Maybe we
should make it director. But it actually means nothing. And
so just that like realization of you're just chasing this
(15:36):
title and chasing this title. You need to detach from
that completely because it doesn't really define the career you do.
It also doesn't define how much you paid, and it
doesn't define how your life looks.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Like this is so interesting because if you work at
the wrong company, those titles can be used to stroke
your ego in a very manipulative way when really nothing
contractually has changed. So I know, for example, there were
spaces that works in where they would you have different
radio presenters.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
And then if you maybe it looks like you have
a lot more.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Energy, more exact, they're like, oh, you are a senior
present and I'd always be like, what is that? But literally, like,
my hours haven't changed, my pay hasn't changed. I'm just like,
so senior sounds like you guys, that presents me a
senior present, But the other presenters are so important, the
(16:36):
HR or the or the program's head.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So I'm just like, what is the senior thing? You
guys are saying what is what is it?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And yeah, So you have to really detach from titles
because you can find yourself being manipulated to overwork, yeah,
with minimals.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And also it affects how your job hunt, because if
you're a manager today, you're only looking for certain titles.
You're looking for senior manager, you're looking for heads, head
of head of something you're looking for. But those titles
mean such different things across organizations that they shouldn't be
leading your job such otherwise you're completely lost.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It should be the life that you want to create
for yourself and the career that can support that life.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
And the only way to know is to have lots
of conversations and network, Okay, because then I can ask
you in this company of yours, there was one of
my younger names, and then you'll tell me all they
actually their day to day job is to pay the walls.
I actually am not in painting wall. And then you
(17:41):
start start learning about what people do in their in
their in their companies fast before you go like, I
just want to be a director at that company, you know,
because what do I mean to anybody, even even like preferences.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Now, obviously COVID gave us, uh this perfect I found
out I would rather work remotely.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I definitely the life I want. There are very few.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Employment rules that can support that in the field that you're.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
In that I'm in. And so I think I stumbled
into what you're saying. It was not I was not clever.
It's suddenly because clever.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But yeah, it's just understanding that actually, this is what
I'm more good for in.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Terms of the life that I want and even personality.
Can I challenge that mindset a little bit? Oh god,
not to be employed? But sometimes we think like that,
we're like, yeah, the career I'm in, very few employers
can support the life I want. Is that a fact?
(18:45):
It's it's a perception. I'm decided looked at the five
companies you know, and the two that the experience exactly,
and you've decided that very few mon that mean because
I always say that careers are depending into bubbles, and
you can be in a bubble you want to be, Yeah,
(19:05):
you can be in that bubble where job that's cuss. Yeah,
it's possible. You can be in that bubble were like
employ and whatever. You just have to find the right bubble. Actually,
it's true. You have challenged my mindset. And there's another thing.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
You always say that actually could even challenge it further.
There's a question you pose, which is like, how many
companies do you think they're in the world WLD And
I'm actually thinking of companies in I ruby, yeah, and
not in them.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, there's like three on one roads.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And so as soon as we do that, right, we
really minimize to what we can see, which is true.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Okay, yeah, yeah, you're around me, so I can tell
you that that they definitely exists companies in your in
your field of work that will support remote work. They exist,
and once you have that mindset shift, you start looking
for them. Where are they? And you start seeing this,
You start seeing them. Yeah, this is interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And it's our mindset that drives our behaviors in terms
of like job hunting or even like if you're an entrepreneur,
it's it's your habits come after what you believe, right, Yeah,
tell me about something I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Struggling with.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Other than mind set, man, Like, it's it's guilt free rest.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I was reading.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Homebody, which is a book by one of my favorite poets, Rupie,
and she actually writes about when you see poets writing
about something, you know, you know minor.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Like there's a hunting there, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Know there's a problem we're dealing with about productivity anxiety.
And I bookmarks that page because I was like, I
have to keep coming back to this because it's.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Just so hard for me to rest without like two.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Hours into rest, just feel guilt big, Like that's that
you're telling me today.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I've done nothing. And even when I left, when I
first left employment to go into it into business.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I would actually say, do you know how much employee
people have done by noon?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And you have just sent you an email? You know
that storry for the rich people who woke up at
four the.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Try that myself granted, at least my tone has become better,
but I still have and I you know.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
There's this other rational voice that's like, dude, you're tired.
Imagine it's not that deep, You're just tired.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
How do we break out of that bubble and allow
ourselves to rest without feeling like we're not worthy because
our self worth is like tied to how hard we're working.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, however, realize is that employment is the only institution
or careers, even if much employment, even entrepreneurship. It's the
only societal institution ever since you were born that doesn't
have built in rest. When you went in to school,
there was tim bricks for everyone. Everybody holds a home.
(22:19):
Universities have long breaks in between well before the like
trimester situations, but five month breaks while I was in
UNI in between. And then you're go into work and
there's no bricks. Yeah, you work Monday to Monday every
day of the year for the rest of your life.
And you even have to lie. You have to take
(22:41):
a break, to take a break, look for a doctor.
You know, I'm exposing myself to write true and it's
just not human in nature to not rest. Yeah. You
know the one thing I keep telling my client and
when we're not talking about them wanting to rest first,
(23:02):
I tell them, remember, you have permission to rest. If
nobody has ever given you permission, I am giving you
permission to rest. Resting is something that you don't necessarily
have to earn. It is something that you must do.
It's a necessity for you to succeed and to thrive
and to be healthy and you need to rest. It's
(23:24):
not that it's like a reward to the work that
you've done. Secondly, the idea that taking a break is
equal to un productivity is a lie.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Oh my god, yes, because I feel that and I
would sometimes tell myself that, like, you're not being productive?
What is this?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Rest is pro active? And all of you know this
because every time you take a break, you come back
feeling rejuvenated. You are more creative. True, you are. You
are able to perform better at work once you've had
a period of rest. But if you don't rest, the
(24:08):
opposite is true. You then are burnt out. You are
just getting through the day. You are checking off to
do lists. You are not as productive at work. If
you're not productive in rest, you have to rest. The
two ways are normally encourageable to feed in rest if
you're employed, is to book that rest ahead of time,
(24:31):
not to wait until you're tired to then take a break. Yeah.
So every year I have a leave calendar that I
put out. We have one for this year as well,
and it's just like, this is what I recommend your
live is to look like because it feeds in every quarter.
You're taking a break at deliberate brick and you are
planning to take it ahead of time and then finding
things to do at that points instead of waiting to
(24:54):
get tired and then thinking, let me go to Mombassad
for every day. Because at that point it's counterproductive because
burnout is not burnout cannot be cured by a one
week holiday. Yeah, but bot can be prevented by very
clearly scheduled one week holidays throughout the year. You can
prevent the burnout. So take the rest intentionally, deliberately plant
(25:17):
ahead of time, Yeah, and then take it regard. But
if it means taking it and stick in your house
and looking at your plans, you don't have to have
plans to be ruined that, yeah, it doesn't count because
then when you make it that people like you know,
take the government has put it in the law that
you need to take a break. And it perplexes me
(25:39):
that people have one hundred days and taken like you
have been backing up days, backing up there the five years.
You know, you're just giving the employer free money exactly,
So plan to take the rest. The second way I
encourage you to like feeding the rest, is planned to
take a long break every five to ten years, a
long break out of the loans. Oh okay, a couple
(26:00):
of months, three months minimums. You've said it in like
my anxiety and that's gone now because I'm just like
and we will be doing production. You see where we go.
So you've planned to take the break and so the
production will work around. So it actually works better even
the pre planned lead days. What's better because when they're
planning to give you that project in Uganda, you tell them,
(26:21):
on this date, I'm not there. When they're planning to
do performance reviews, you're like, on this date, I'm not there,
so we need to start them the next week. Otherwise
you're playing catch up. You're like, I haven't yet trusted.
Things have been crazy, so I haven't tested. Things are
crazy because you did not plan to rest, plan to rest,
(26:42):
and then walk around that. Everything will now be planned
around and planned around that.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Why do you feel like it's important to take the
long break because I think most of the times when
we talk.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
About rests, we talk about the short bests of it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So why do you think the career breaks, if we
can them, are like so important?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
The main reason is as human beings, our lives are
always evolving, and the challenge of being stuck in your
day to day is it becomes almost second nature to
you that you wake up in the morning, you come
for a shoot, you do the shoot, you go home,
you do the thing that you're supposed to do. It
becomes second nature. You never have time to pose reevaluate.
(27:26):
Is this still the life I want? Yeah? Because the
thing about life is that the life you wanted that
twenty is not the same life you want at thirty five.
Even not twenty five. You' the same life you want
when you have kids, Yeah, the same life. Life has seasons,
and if you don't you're not posing and evaluating your
career fits your current season. Then again, my man. Yeah,
(27:50):
but then you get to a point you're like, why
am I so unfulfilled? Like I wanted this when I
was twenty eight, twenty seven. Yeah, I remember praying five
for a job that will give me travel. I was like,
I just travel, and then I traveled the year after.
(28:13):
I used to come home to pack my suitcase and
I rely for my visa and go. Yeah, I traveled.
I think I was like seventy percent of my ear
I was out of the country right now in the
season i'm in right now, I am constantly pushing off travel.
I'm like, oh, do that trip? Do I have to go?
(28:34):
Can I can somebody else go on? My behalf? Because
the season i'm in now, I have a little baby.
Now think about travel. You have to think what was
this baby? Yeah? You have to figure out pumping schedules
across the several counties and several time zones. You're flying
for nine hours is I'm not acceptable? So the season
I'm in right now, if I had kept that job,
(28:58):
I would be buried from planning. Yeah. So you have
to constantly be like, Okay, I have done the things,
the goal has been achieved. Do I still want that?
Is my life still accommodating of that? Yeah? And then
now the job I want now is a remote job
(29:20):
that allows me flexibility to be a present parent. I
have one goal to be a present parent. That's it.
And everything else is secondary, every including the money. Yeah,
it's secondary. Yeah, because if then then this is the
will end. Yeah, the children will grow up and then
I'd like, now I did not vot you that I
(29:41):
want to go, but I want like to relocate the country.
So you have to That's why career breaks are important.
So you took a career break. I took a career break.
How long was it? A six month career brick? Okay?
It was unt planned? Okay, And this is why I
keep telling you what to planned the career break my
career because unplanned. I took the break. I lost my
dad and for the first time in my life, I
(30:03):
could not work. I had been working, you know, like
my namer system just stopped. And I used to go
for meetings and the entire meeting and I just couldn't function.
And so I remember that time my manager asked me,
We're willing to give you as much time as you need,
just tell us how much. And I was like, I
don't know how much time I need, and so and
(30:26):
I can't prom I can't keep you on edge like this.
So I took a break the in the beginning of like,
I want to allow myself financially a one year brick.
But let's see how we're feeling. It was very, very unplanned,
and in those six months, the first two months were rough.
The identity thing is real. The productivity I had. I
(30:48):
used to wake up on a Monday and stay at
my wall. Yeah, I'm like can I watch Netflix work tomorrow?
Like I can't? And then I was so free It's
to be with my friends. And then a day kneting,
then I'm like, why, oh, it's Wednesday. And those those
(31:09):
first two months, I actually almost went into depression because
of the It was a very dramatic, like ye in Nashia,
and it's like when you're moving so far and then
you stop. And I just was pushed pulled that back
so hard. But then from month three, when I embraced it,
I decided, you know what, what are all the things
(31:30):
I wanted to do with my life and I couldn't
do because I was working. I wanted to nap on
a Monday, hat too. I created a schedule. I had
my career break schedule, and the goal is like, have
nothing productive in that schedule, nothing productive in the side.
That's all I wanted to I have know for that.
It was like Monday career Rise, to go to career
(31:51):
every single day. Can you imagine the dream? I miss it? Okay,
I was like just knitting, painting. I was going. I
was calling my sister on that Wednesday, I'm like, what
are you doing? I'm coming for dinner. I would drive
to her house for dinner. I was visiting my friends.
I had a call my grandmother, how are you doing
(32:13):
an unproductive calendar? And when I embraced the rest, that
is when the real transformation happened. That's when I started
questioning and wondering, like the life I have built this
is really what? Maybe I just don't like watching the
life I want the problem. Maybe this is the life
(32:33):
I wanted and the employer that I was with even
though that job was my dream job. Before I left,
I told my dream job it was the most money
I've ever been paid. It was like, you know, all
the things you imagine as a little girl, as a
little Kenyan girl, that you can never achieve. That job
allowed me to achieve that. So it was very hard
(32:54):
to leave. And after those three months I didn't have
the opportunity to go back, but I was like, actually,
this job doesn't is not helping me build the life
I want. That's now clear. It was because of this.
It was this break allowed me to now think about, like,
what do I really really really want? So when I
built the career with Spara, it was built in that
(33:17):
season of just like I really I'm really passionate about this.
I've always found myself gravitating towards helping people build better careers.
I'm not a hit manager, I don't have any skin
in that game, but I'm really every job I've done,
every role of health, I found myself leaning towards company culture,
typework or like you know, mindset shift work or helping
(33:38):
pus find their voices at work and finding their power
at work, every single role of health. And I was like,
this is something I really really enjoyed doing. And when
I wrote my hour by hour thing, I had two
hours in there atop some women and just like teach
them what I know real And that's when I built
the career whisperer. This is so incredible. And during the
career break, what was the react of the people around me?
(34:02):
From the people around you? Because this is something that
maybe not many people do. Yeah, So when I when
I the thing that triggered the decision to leave the
company was that my role was changing and I needed
to relocate to Uganda, not even to a market that
had operations, and the company didn't have operations Ingain and
so I need to pick a market. The Ganda was
the closest one and at that time, I was like,
(34:25):
what do I need my life right now? I need
to be present from my family. We're all going through grief.
I needed to be to be close to my support system,
my therapist, my boyfriend at the time, my you know,
like this, I need to be close to my support system.
I need to take out my dog. I had a dog, Yeah,
a little puppy. I was like, who's going to take
out this dog? I needed to to And there was
also like I want to a living and I want
to contribute meaningfully. It is, but the im locating wasn't
(34:49):
going to support that. And so the decision and I
was making it. I was my mom. I was my
mom and my friends and everybody was around me when
I try to make the decision because we're all in
the grief season. And my mom was like, you is
not that far. Yeah, now you'll stop and do what
then you'll be on break doing nothing? Yeah? I was like,
that's your nothing. Yes. It was not a decision, but
(35:16):
many people understood or supported the uncertainty of what will
What if you never get a job that pays you
as much? What if you never get a job that
you love as much? Yeah? I didn't realize in the
crabic they even't love it that much. I didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I just was I like groomed to love a job
that looked like like that, automatically I should love it exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
So it was it was a lot of uncertainty around, like, oh,
this is going to be the worst decision for your career,
and I film sometimes that that that talk entered my head.
I was like, maybe I'll never find an employer that
pays me that much. Yeah, oh the country the world
is made up of three hundred billion people billion, or
(36:04):
there'd a million companies. Yeah, there's going to be one.
I just need one that will pay the same amount.
So I think that transformation happening in the career break
really made it clear for me the kinds of employers
I was looking at next And I paid for it, yeah,
because when I when I when I took my next offer,
(36:27):
I took a picqut. But that paycard was well worth
it because now it's supported the life I wanted. Yeah,
because I was able to work. It was I kep
saying my glorious independent contributor year. Yeah, I was not
managing any teams. I had very clearly scopt work I
was working managing like six hours on a bad day,
(36:50):
I had. The focast I had was great.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
I took several three week holidays in that year and
I needed that, Yeah, because I was still healing. I
was still like recovering. I needed that year to look
like that, and it was perfect.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
You know, like I'm listening to your talk and I'm
just realizing how crazy the employment space is and has
been normalized as far as rest is concern. Because when
I lost my mom, I was working at.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
A radio station. I took two or three weeks off.
You've just married at that point, and then you know,
I'm general, yes, so you had new marriage, anti marriage.
There's no money a month. It takes two weeks. That's
settle in to know, oh, and it's really happened here.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
And then I went back to work like I was
on air, and I would be like, you know, speaking
to everybody's listening, and like when the mic.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Is off, like crying, crying, crying, and a few I
want to say a few months afterwards. I don't know
how long. I moved to a new company, right, and
so I just kept working so.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Exactly and then and maybe someone watching this has the
same culture where they work.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
When the HR manager is telling you, yeah you should,
you still have so many leave days. You have not
taken you leave days, but your line manager is not
allowing you to take leave. And then what happens is
you end up sick. Right, And I thought about this
the other day.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I started whenever I get sick, I would feel like
a failure, like my I've done something young, like how.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
To get a homer, and like it's only now that
I'm like, goodness, you people get sing. So it's just
like our relationship with rest.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
In the employment space and I honestly just across the
board is really not it's not serving us.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
There's something you've said. And this is another like thing
that taking back power in your own carriage is very
important because your line money rest is your right, it
is your legal right. Your line manager refusing to sign
that live form is illegal. I wish I would have
(39:22):
in jail strategy, strate to jail when when when I
book my leave days, I don't ask you inform. See,
we all have the second mine. These are the ones
that are taking and and and you know, and you
know the thing about doing that is because you wanted
(39:43):
to have been planned that fast. Yeah, so you know
that's on the twenty eighth of July. I remember the media,
and unless it's stainly not pre planned. Yeah, so at
that point you're taking back the power. You say, you
said the days I'm taking off. Yeah, so that you
are aware and that when you're planning whatever you're planning,
you need to plum around those days because rest is
(40:03):
your right and you need to take the rest and
not to be given the rest, or to be allowed
the rest by your employers.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
But that.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Like that mindset, even manager that we have bad managers, Yeah, please,
they were also managed like that. They don't know how
they are happening Ford, So like, yeah, just being being
able to like that little shift in rest is my right.
I am going to take it and sometimes I'm going
to take it. I'm paid. If I'm finished my twenty
one days, I'm taking three more days, but I paid,
(40:32):
like I'll just cat and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
And also knowing that nothing is going to burn nothing.
Imagine you know things will be the same when you
come back.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
I assure you. I guarantee, I guarantee it.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
What do you think is the one thing as we
wind up that is so important for women to know
in terms of their career based on what we've talked
about from my identity tot to the career breaks, like
that's so incredible to building a life that then your
career fits into.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
What is what is important for women to know? I'd
say the most important thing to know is for a
lot of us, our careers are happening to us and
then they're defiling our lives for us. Yeah, so you
end up you end up up in a career you're
in because that's what the government told you to go
(41:31):
and do. Yeah, because you graduated UNI. You don't take
leave because your manager has said no to the leave
this you or because the company doesn't have a built
in three months three month break you know, the company
I don't support that, or you know, like you're taking
like I am on maternity leave right now, and before
this year, my company's policy was maternitally was three months law.
(41:54):
When I got pregned last year, when I was talking
to my manager, I told her I am taking six months.
I am plan forming to take six months. Does the
company support that or not? Because I am going to
prepare myself financially for any outcome but my plan is
to take that my life is being to take a
break for six months, and that then gives me power
(42:17):
and control over my own rest. And that's the one takeaway.
Remember that you really truly have the power to craft
and control the career you want because your career is
just a part of your life. Don't you find that
we go in that's so powerful.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
We go in with a scarcity mentality because of how
we look at even like what I was saying earlier,
like there's no company that's going.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
To support the life I want. That's the scarcity there.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, right, So I think we hold on and follow
whatever this career is saying, yeah we're great because it's like, oh,
we do need this one.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, you know, and you will shock your employers. I
promise you. I guarantee it when you tell your employer
as the things that you want. But then you will
discover something that careers employers all those people are people.
There are human beings. All those decisions you think HR
policies came from where from a HR person or like
from the leadership of the company. And there's there's a
(43:17):
power in having that example of if you were able
to get away with it. Yeah, why can't I? Yeah,
why can't I be? Those examples start by just taking
power in your rest, taking power in your career, and
ensuring that it's like it's like following your life and
not the other way around. It's taking power in the
(43:39):
kind of your job descriptions. Job descriptions are fluid. I
keep saying everything in your career, everything is negotiable, Nothing
is hardcast in stone, because all those systems, all those cultures,
all those situations were created by people. And if there's
one thing about people, they are fluid. These are spectrum
(44:00):
of options. It can move, it's moldable, it's do you know.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
I was going to wrap up, but I forgot to
ask you something so important, and it's something that you've
said so beautifully, and I just think it would be
terrible if you don't say it. When we're talking about
the life we create and identities and all of these things,
relationships and how the partner you choose, Yeah, impacts your career.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah, we don't seem to ever want to go there.
That's you know, for and this is going to be
a sexistick, but that's my position. Men often don't have
to think about their spouses when it comes to their
careers most of the time, because the expectation from society
(44:52):
is that men will go and work. Yeah, and if
them whatever job they choose, the woman will do what
support of fle you know, your support your But if
somebody needs to quit their job, it's you. Yeah, it's somebody.
If somebody needs to be at home to hot meal,
is you're going. Yeah, you're going. Like one of my
(45:14):
best friends just relocated and her husband moved for her
and even blowing everybody's mind because the expectation in society
is that women in marriages and relationships are just to
support the man's career because he's the vision bearer or
financial honner all that stuff. So even more importantly for women,
(45:34):
the partner you choose to spend your life with, or
whatever season of life you choose to spend their life with,
has such a big impact on your well being and
your career well being. Your well being, I don't have
to explain, Yeah, your career will be in resting or
not your career well being. Yeah. Again, with the mindset
(45:58):
of like you know, men, I'm not like that city
you need to enter the partner choosing your field, the
playgrounds the ground, realizing that the life you want there
is a partner that can support that life, and you
need to choose that partner very very carefully. If you
(46:21):
are planning over here to be a remote worker, who
is you know, sometimes we're going for walks and runs
and still running that company it and you have a
partner who expects you to be laboring from six am
to seven am at home. Something will have to give.
(46:42):
And many times that thing that is giving is your career.
When you're choosing and defining and writing down about your
life right down the kind of partner that will support
that life as well as the employer that will support
that life, because those two inputs are the employer unfortunately
is a smaller voice or fortunately yeah, a smaller voice
(47:05):
than your partner. Yeah, And so having that partner who
will support that is very very important. Choose partners who
will enable you to have the kind of life that
you live, that you want to live, because that is
often the piece that is breaking with And thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
I'm so happy that we got to talk on that,
because when we talk about careers, we never touch I
think we segment life so much and we forget their
path that influence the others, right, and then thank you
for the work that you do and Gosha and like,
the Career Whisperer is just changing so many lives and
so it's.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
An honor to have you on the show. I love
being here as a mana lestuman. Yeah it's finally a compliment.
Oh yeah, not now, it's more than anything. You like,
I really really want to be quiet. Yeah, I'm like no,
when I enter our room, I'm loud. I'm loud. I
love it.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
And so if you check out the description of this episode,
there are resources and links for you to connect with
the career with Ferr and get some coaching if you
want to understand more about your mindset, what you need
to embrace when going into the career and the life
that you want to build for yourself. But thank you
so much for watching this episode and being part of
(48:23):
this community. Don't forget to like share it with all
the manalists and almost manalists women in your life and
be here next week for the next episode.
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