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September 1, 2025 24 mins

What if your immune system was shaping your personality without you even knowing? In this clip, immunologist Dan Nicolau reveals surprising science behind the mind-body connection, how curiosity and forgiveness affect health, and why infections like toxoplasmosis can radically change behavior.

Dan Nicolau


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If you enjoyed this episode you might also like:

The Brain Immune Expert: ALERT! Social Media Is Reprogramming Your Immune System | Prof Nicolauhttps://youtu.be/2zNw6pzv8qk


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#MindBodyConnection #ImmuneSystem #Personality

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the five questions. This is the pre interview with
my guest for you to connect moredeeply with the person who is
actually sitting in front of me.These episodes come out the day
before to my main recording to the paid subscribers over on the
Compassionate Cure on sub stack.These are released months later
to everyone, but if you want to hear them first, head to the
show notes where you will find the link to my sub stack.

(00:22):
They're bite sized, personal, and they are backed with a ton
of helpful device and they've slowly become my favorite part
of Live well, be well, enjoy. What is the one small thing
about you that makes you uniquely you?
I have the curiosity of like a four or five year old, which was

(00:43):
preserved not through choice because I tried to become less
curious and be more focused and just sort of better at being an
adult, but it just hasn't worked.
So I basically have the the curiosity and dilettante as a
result level of a roughly four or five year old.
Brilliant. I love that always.
I think the number one life for me, number one life lesson for
me is to always be curious. And my niece is picking her GCS

(01:08):
ES at the moment and she's very overwhelmed with the whole
situation. And I saw her at the weekend and
I said it doesn't matter what you choose as long as you're
curious. Just always be curious with
where you're going, and that will lead you to what your
heart, what your heart wants, basically.
Yeah. So I think curiosity is a big
one. Curiosity leads to lower
inflammation levels. I'll set you the paper after.

(01:30):
I love it that week Eddie scientist that comes out always
good, and it's because of this within my work that that's why.
But it's true. I mean, your life's mission is
to look at the mind body connection, which we're going to
go into in the main show and whyinflammation is kind of at the
pinnacle of all of your work. So #2 is overcoming resistance.
So what has been the most persistent area, persistent area

(01:51):
of resistance in your life and how did you overcome it?
So I guess in work life, if I split them like that, the
hardest thing is that I I struggle to stay focused because
I'm kind of like a little squirrel running around after
acorns in different directions. It's gotten better as I've
gotten older, but I still struggle to to stay focused and

(02:16):
not kind of try to do too many things basically.
And in personal life, something similar, you know, I just want
to do loads of things all the time.
It's like I want to experience like all of human existence in
all its forms, absolutely every microsecond of the day.
And that's not possible. So I just run around like a
headless chicken a little bit, alittle bit.
But it's not horrible. It's just, yeah, that that's
probably what I, what I, what I fight.

(02:37):
I love that because I think so many people, especially I relate
to that in in a very big way. And it's kind of a weakness and
a strength at the same time. I guess that leads into your
curiosity. But also I guess at the same
time, you can probably become quite overwhelmed with it.
Yeah, because there's so many things that you're trying to
process and and outreach that itcan come to a point of maybe

(02:58):
feeling overwhelming. Yeah.
And how do you deal with that inyour work and personal life?
Like how do you kind of maintainthat persistence because I mean
you do a lot as a job. Do you have 6 PhDs?
I have six degrees 6. Degrees.
I mean that is. Well, one of.
Them is PhD. OK, six degree.
I mean, I mean, I said that justbecause I remember reading your

(03:18):
bio and thinking, wow, this is extraordinary.
How do you, I mean, you've obviously managed to maintain an
incredible high level of output,but how do you overcome that
resistance that you just spoke about?
I don't really have a good answer.
Honest question, honest answer. I don't have a good strategy.
Just sort of like kind of like plow through it sometimes at a
faster rate, sometimes at a lessfast rate.

(03:39):
This particular week, I feel overwhelmed.
I've got a lot of stuff to get done in the next roughly 9910
days. And in fact, over the next
month. I don't really have AI, don't
really have a good strategy. I've gotten a lot better at
things like meditation and not staying up too late.
Traditionally areas in which that haven't been good,
especially with staying up late to try to finish things.

(03:59):
But I don't really have a no. I just, I just kind of carry on
like I, I, yeah, I want to give you a better answer, but I just
don't have. One.
No, I love that. We want honesty.
We want honesty. We want to know that, you know,
you're still figuring it out, which I think is very human.
Yeah, yeah. And I also think one thing that
has helped actually since we're on the topic, the there's an

(04:20):
idea that you have to be productive.
I'm not really sure what that word means.
I don't think anyone really doesknow what it means.
And that you have to people use these words like deliver impact,
you know, and like engage with stakeholders and make sure that
things are tangible. These sort of like business
words, they apply to business for sure, but they don't really

(04:41):
apply to research life. I don't think they apply to like
personal life. Some of it may be a little bit
of shifting goals. Like I don't have to be hyper
productive all the time. Like that's not my role on
planet earth to give like tangible outputs and engage with
stakeholders. Like it's right to suck
sometimes. Well, that's how you learn.

(05:02):
That's how you. It is also how you learn.
Yeah, exactly. So maybe part of it is, is that
one thing that has gotten betteris I I'm just not that judgy
with myself anymore. Like, it's OK to suck today.
Yeah, it's not OK to suck every day, you know, But it's OK to
suck today. But I think that's so important.
I mean, I love Oliver Burkman, who came on the show.
He talks about. He has an amazing newsletter

(05:23):
called The Imperfectionist and he talks about 90 minute bursts
of productivity, but you also need a lot of space to be
creative and allow your thoughtsto be there.
And so I think, you know, every time we, we fail, I say that in
quotation marks. It's, it's your data collection
of learning. And as I think if you can fail
quicker and faster, then that's actually quite successful
because you're learning what's not working more quickly.

(05:45):
I think it's when you stay down there and see yourself as that
the whole time. You don't learn from that and
recover quick enough to get the success that one might want.
How do you do it? You seem like you're very
productive. I look like it, don't I?
On the outside. I definitely not fully got it
down, but I think I am somebody who is curious.

(06:07):
But I also am very in touch withwhat we talk about, say the mind
and the body. And I know when I'm pushing
myself too much and I will retreat inwards.
So although I can seem quite extroverted, I really need time
to restore and I really need that time on my own.
So I've been batter at some personal boundaries for me
because I always being a people,please.

(06:29):
I get worried about upsetting others, but I've had to really
grasp actually like, what is it?That is my main goal here.
And if I need time to restore, then that's my main focus.
So yoga is a big thing in my life.
And yeah, just my word this yearhas been Phil.
And so whenever I feel very overwhelmed, I asked myself how

(06:49):
I feel. And if I feel very disconnected
to my body, then it's kind of analarm signal to get back into my
body. That's very interesting.
So that's how I manage it. The no matter how hard we try,
we talk about the brain and the body separately.
It's just so built up in our culture, you know, even the two
of us trying to talk about the mind body connection.

(07:09):
But one way to look at it mathematically is that the brain
and the immune system, let's say, but you can say just save
more body Gen. more generally than immune system have sort of
Co evolved to protect the Organism from harm and to make
you happy and healthy, right. So they're kind of like jointly
optimizing over some happiness homeostasis balance function.

(07:31):
So when you feel like something is a little bit off, you know,
that might just be kind of what an engineering would be called
an error signal. You know, like on an airplane,
it's like, well, it's not completely straight, right.
So the autopilot kicks in to just kind of give it a little
nudge. Yeah.
And that the implication of thatwould be that it's actually good

(07:52):
to feel a bit off balance as means that the autopilot's
working. Yeah, signalling.
It's telling you you're not so disconnected that you're numb
from that feeling. Exactly.
Yeah, which? I've been in.
Which I've been in, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gosh, that's a really good analogy actually.
Again, it's kind of the humanistic approach.
OK, I can't get into this too much because we're going to go
into the whole episode. So the third one is small

(08:14):
changes, big impact. What's the smallest change that
has brought the most ease into your life?
Get rid of phones. Just get rid of them.
I've actually never had any social media, so it, that part
was easy. In fact, I'm disconnected from
I, people routinely tell me all sorts of things from social
media that I like, just never heard of because I never had
one. But I still look into phones at

(08:35):
night and stuff, you know. So we produce melatonin, as I
don't need to tell you, but we produce melatonin when it's
dark. So you can sleep and you can
rest and you can start the cycle.
If you're looking into light, you're not producing melatonin.
So yeah. So just get rid of the phone.
Just get rid of it. Get rid of screens.
Just put them as far away from, let X be the size of your house.

(08:58):
Maximize the distance between your bed and where, you know,
make it as close to X as possible.
Just I I put everything in the kitchen because it's the
furthest away from them bedroom.That's brilliant.
Everything, laptops, phones, everything.
Just get rid of get rid of artificial lights at night. 1
billion people worldwide are deficient in this nutrient that
so many of you guys might not beaware of.

(09:20):
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deficient in this nutrient. So I'm going to first of all
explain what the physical symptoms are.
If you have cold hands and feet,pale skin, extreme lack of
energy or fatigue, then you might be suffering with iron
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(09:43):
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(10:04):
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(10:25):
It is really critical to make sure your iron levels are in
check. Yeah, yeah.
It's interesting. I'm quite hypersensitive to
lights. So I, I am, and I think that's
maybe just something that's a quirk about me.
But I put a lot of candles on and I find scent very relaxing.
But the one thing I struggle with and I is to get rid of my

(10:45):
phone. And I definitely know and, and
it's such a big thing. I think everyone listening here
will, will find that a very hardthing to do as a tangible habit.
We all know this. But I think your information
today is actually maybe going toprompt people to hopefully do
exactly this habit of putting itas far as way as possible
because you're showing that, youknow, inflammation can be caused

(11:07):
by social media. And I don't know if you've seen
it, the film Adolescence. I haven't seen it, but I know
what you were talking about, yeah.
It just shows the the worrisome increase of social media use in
especially younger generations. It.
Has to be content, yeah. I don't see why you would have
higher inflammation or mental health problems from watching,

(11:28):
say, nature documentary in In fact I I suspect you probably
feel a lot better after watchingan H documentary.
But. When I hear David Attenborough I
feel very relaxed. It is voice very relaxing, but
but it must be the the ugly content, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I think, yeah, that's something that you're looking
into and we're going to hopefully touch upon that in
today's conversation a little bit, as much as you can share

(11:51):
with us anyway. So what's the one health related
change that you've made that hassignificantly impacted your
well-being? This is about health
transformation. I want to say get rid of the
phone at the risk of laboring the point because you don't
think of that as a health intervention, but it is a health
intervention. I mean, one doesn't maybe you
do, but one generally doesn't. People say that they mean
something like exercise or, you know, eat more yogurt or

(12:13):
something. So yeah, you should eat more
yogurt, but and you should exercise more.
But. But if we kind of think more
holistically about what things affect our health, then digital
technologies have a role. But they they make us stress,
they make us sleep bad, they make us worry all the time.
So from a health health point ofview, the best thing I think you

(12:34):
can do is just, you know, try toput some boundaries there.
In some jobs, it's harder, right?
I appreciate that. So for example, when you're a
job, I can totally see that you need to be on social media.
Yeah, we, we are lucky, lucky. You're in research that it's
just not that important. But but if, but if you, if you
wanted to concentrate on something, something health
related, like more kind of classically health related, it's

(12:57):
something about regularity of exercise.
You know, people go on crash, including me go on sort of like
OK, Christmas was, you know, loads of roast chicken and wine
and stuff. So now in January you're going
to go on a crash thing. But it's quite hard to sustain,
like small little habits. Well, even the word crash,
right, feels so like detrimentalin my in my world.
And if you think about the word diet and you take tea off, you

(13:18):
get DI. But I had not thought of that.
I would take that away with me. Yeah.
And so I, and I think, you know,we're going to talk about
today's stress and inflammation and, and all of these things.
And you know, when you are in inyour talk about this as a
scientist, you know, it's not good to have a reductionist
point of view. And I believe that very
similarly with your diet, it's not good to have a reductionist

(13:39):
point of view with your diet either.
You need to have an expansive diverse diet to really help
support your health. But I will go with what you said
because I think you've just saidexercise.
And this this moment came into my brain when you mentioned it,
that when I go to the gym and I have to say, like, I am part of
this. This is not me observing and,
and looking down at people because I am this person.

(14:01):
But when I walk into the gym, the majority of people that are
like on the weights or stretching and every single
person is connected to their phone.
You know, we're either like looking at our music to pick or
we're texting somebody or we're checking an e-mail or someone's
called us. Even in those moments of unless
you're in a class and still thenwhen I'm in a class, people's
phones go off. We're still even connected in

(14:23):
those moments to, to technology.So it is all consuming.
From an evolutionary point of view, we were not designed, I
mean, I, I use that word writ large, you know, designed by
evolution or by, by higher powerto operate in this world at all.
That's sort of obvious to everybody.
Everybody walking around on planet Earth knows that, you

(14:43):
know, we've off to be in the Savannah like half a million
years ago. Genes changed very slowly, as
you know, and society has changed extremely quickly even
in the last few years. So we're operating in a world
and that we were not designed tobe in at all.
We weren't designed to have pollution and our artificial
light and work like what's what's work like what you.

(15:06):
Know 90% of the time we spend indoors what's normal.
Yeah. So we're necessarily
underperforming because we're just not supposed to be.
We're even ADHD, you know, something like that probably
would have made someone a far, far better hunter a couple
100,000 years ago. So it was probably a good thing
to have ADHD, but it's not a helpful thing in this society.

(15:29):
So maybe one thing is just to try to return a little bit to to
what the world would have been like that we were designed to
inhabit. We're not going to be able to do
it perfectly. We're not going to get rid of
artificial lights. We're not going to get rid of
computers. We're not going to get rid of,
you know, society and, and just as well that we don't because we
would sort of collapse into going back to trees.
But we can try to do some, some we can take some steps towards

(15:53):
having more fresh air and eatinga little bit more like we were
supposed to a couple of 100,000 years ago, like not tons of
ingredients from tons of different places all at the same
time. We can try to sleep a bit early.
I'm very guilty of this, actually.
I'm a night out. But if you try to just return a
little bit, I, I guess that's the lesson of some, some of the
work we're doing in the lab, butwe just try to return closer to

(16:17):
the world that we were actually designed to inhabit than even
absent other changes in your life, if you just kind of like
simplify, simplify. Because we used to have a very
simple life and now we have a very complex life.
The last question Peace with thepast.
Quite a big one. What's the hardest thing for you

(16:37):
to make peace with about yourself or your life in
general? The hardest thing, Oh that's
easy actually. I don't know if it's a 2 cent to
answer, but so I struggle with the idea that I am myself.
Like I'm a continuation of my past self and yet my past
self-made some decisions and forexample, said some things and
did some things that I'm not proud of.

(16:59):
But I wouldn't, you know, do them now, right?
So I could have made mistakes and I am, but I am still that
person. And so on the one hand, I am,
you know, responsible for havingsaid things that I'm not proud
of and even done some things that I'm not proud of.
And at the same time, I have to forgive that guy because it's
not really, you know, I've evolved, right?

(17:20):
Like everyone can relate to this.
Yeah, everyone. But I don't think you can just
say, you know what, I'm just going to forgive 25 year old
Dan. That was like a different guy.
He wasn't a different guy. You know, it's a continuation.
So I struggle with this idea. I struggle with kind of regret,
but not, not regret with a big R.
It's just, you know, if I had mytime again, I wouldn't, you
know, maybe I would have done that better or I would have been

(17:41):
kinder or something like that. But at the same time, it is me.
So should I feel guilty? Yep, to some extent, but not
consumingly, you know, because it is a different person.
I really struggle with that actually on a sense of everyday.
I'm like, man, why did I, why did I say that?
You know, I, why did I say this thing to this person 10 years
ago? Like they hadn't done anything
wrong, they were just tired. I don't know, I just snapped or

(18:01):
something. So it's like, yeah, trying to
like, I don't know, yeah, I'd make this gesture with my hands,
but this is kind of like trying to sort of have this
conversation with my younger self.
But my younger self did the bestthat he could with the
information he had available at the time.
Virtually by definition, yes. Yeah, well, I think that's such
an important thing because I think there's not one person

(18:23):
listening to this show or on planet Earth that has gone
through their life without making mistakes, speaking to
someone unkindly, waking up on the wrong side of the bed, as we
like to put put it, and and acting in a different way.
And I think sometimes we can go through our entire lives and
never take responsibility. And I think the beauty of taking
responsibility and reflecting isthat you learn very quickly
actually the things that you maybe don't want to carry on in

(18:45):
your life. But I think we all have to go
through it. You know, I've done a lot of
things in my life where I look back and go, well, maybe I
shouldn't have acted in that wayor maybe I shouldn't have
treated that person in that way.But I don't think it comes from,
it never came from a malicious point of view, you know, always
came from the tools that I had and how I understood myself at
that time. And I know that going forth

(19:07):
there will be people that would treat me in a way that's unkind
and unjust. But I very much guarantee that
it won't be from a malicious point of view.
Yeah, generally isn't. And now I have an understanding
that when somebody, for instance, somebody came on the
show last week or didn't come onthe show and turned up And we're
actually, I could tell we're in a really overwhelmed state and
didn't come on with a microphoneand didn't come on with any

(19:27):
headphones, which we don't really do virtual recordings
anymore. And they were very quick to kind
of say, I don't have my stuff here, but the quality wasn't
good enough. And so we tried to figure it out
and navigate it. And I could tell that they were
frustrated and overwhelmed and really stressed, but they were
biting and being very reactive towards trying to find a
solution to where we decided to to not do the recording at all.

(19:51):
And I think five years ago, I would have been very, very
active back and taking that to heart.
And actually what I could see now is that person was really
struggling with something. And it was nothing to do with me
and it was bad timing. And they were doing the best
that they could. And they would probably look
back and maybe say I handled that and maybe an incorrect way,
but I didn't, I didn't take thatto heart.

(20:11):
I could see that that person wasstruggling.
And so I think if we can kind offorgive ourselves in the same
way, that allows us to kind of really like let go and kind of
move forward with what's the most important things.
Wisely said, being an immunologist helps a little bit
with that stuff because I think we don't usually think of it

(20:32):
this way, but your immune systeminfluences your personality and
your personality influences yourimmune system.
It's something that hardly anyone ever says, but it's it's
been known for not that short ofa time.
For example, people who are conscientious have higher levels
of some inflammatory markers. And conversely, people with
higher levels of some inflammatory markers have, you
know, different personality types.
And maybe it's not clear which way that causality is, right?

(20:54):
So like, maybe if you are someone who is careful because
of your personality, your immunesystem is less used to having to
respond to like, silly things because you don't do as many
silly things. Maybe somebody who's a bit more
adventurous has a kind of a, youknow, the immune system sort of
taking a beating because they'vedone stupid things.
And so we just had to learn to protect the person, right?

(21:15):
But in any case, but it's interesting that they are
completely, completely related throughout the life from when
you're a child all the way up until you take your last breath,
your immune system influences your personality and vice versa
in a dynamic way. So it's changing and also that
for instance, just to give you an example of there are
infections that radically changepersonality.

(21:37):
I can give you a very simple example.
Toxoplasmosis. Toxo is a bug that cats give to
us. They give to us because they
give to mammals, because it makes mammals take more risks.
Until recently, cats ate us and in some parts of like for
example in sub-Saharan Africa, they still do.
So big cats eat gorillas, for example.
When you have this infection, it, it lives in your amygdala,

(21:58):
it doesn't do anything else to you, doesn't make you feel sick,
but it makes you take risks. And those risks included mice
coming out of holes so the cats can eat them.
Right now, cats don't need us anymore, but they still give us
this bug. And a lot of the human
population, not fair proportion,has it.
It makes you way more likely to take risks.
In fact, if you look at the number of deaths that we can
attribute to this, to this bug from people running red lights

(22:21):
and having unprotected sex and, you know, doing silly like jumps
off buildings and stuff, it makes a a mockery of murder,
war, terrorism. Combined.
It's more deaths than tuberculosis.
It's more deaths than malaria, Things that we think of as
serious problems. I don't like a million people a
year die essentially from from from the risks that they take
from having this bug, which doesnothing else, doesn't make you

(22:42):
feel sick. And if it was that simple, we
could simply just take some antibiotics that eradicate it.
But that wouldn't be a good ideabecause it also makes you more
likely to start start up companies and also makes you
better looking by mechanisms that we don't understand,
possibly in men through expression of testosterone.
But basically the immune system and the brain are very, very
intimately connected. And being an immunologist, just
to put a bow around that, makes a lot easier to forgive yourself

(23:04):
and other people. Mic drop.
Wow, that's fascinating. How can we figure out if we've
got this bug? You can take a test.
Oh. My God everyone listening to us
now is Googling what test? Can we take a test you can ask
some deep questions about, you know, if somebody punches
someone in the face, should theybe sentenced as someone who

(23:25):
doesn't, you know, the someone who talks So who does something
violent or something silly like running a red light, Should they
be treated the same way and sentenced the same way and
punched the same way as someone who doesn't have toxo because
you know, people who we should have known better?
Well, maybe she she couldn't have known better because she
had talk. So, you know, they'd ask some
deep questions about how much ofour free will really is just
immune, sort of driven basically.

(23:47):
Interesting. Gosh, that is so interesting.
Well, I think that is the perfect way to end these five
questions, which actually is human forgiveness of oneself.
Thank you, Dan. I'm very excited now for our
main episode, which is, woah, that's the five questions.
Who knows that we're going? To go.
So that was the warm up. Well, we're going to be looking
at the mind body intersection with the immune system kind of

(24:10):
at the forefront of it and how social media can play a huge
role now today and increasing our information, how cancer
might not be what people think it is.
And I'm very excited to delve into this.
So thank you for for being open for those five questions.
No, thank you for for asking them.
That's that's the week off to a solid start.

(24:33):
Thanks so much for listening to hear the full episode.
There's a link in the description.
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