Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I guess that's like the first question, because a lot of
people will go is it a trend? Should we be eating as much
protein? Can we get enough on our diet?
How much is enough? It's quite embarrassing to say
this, like after doing this for so long and looking at the
research I did the calculation, looking at what I was consuming
and I was massively under consuming.
My sort of party line prior to this was we don't need to worry
(00:21):
about protein, we need to be worried about fibre and one of
the things that got wrong was protein.
Doctor Ruby Ojla is a medical doctor and best selling author.
Redefining healthcare by puttingfood and protein at the heart of
medicine. Got a Real light nutrition pro
to sit alongside me and tell me what happened back in 2009 that
made you redirect this path. I had my first episode of atrial
(00:42):
fibrillation and what I thought was gonna be like a one off
episode actually started happening two to three times per
week. The one person who said that I
should really think about my diet and lifestyle was my mom.
In came leftovers, in came nuts and seeds, in came a more plant
based approach. How do you encourage somebody to
look at their meal? We should be leaning into more
of his plant based proteins. You're not only getting the
(01:02):
protein but you're also getting the fibre.
You're getting a really good dose of this anti-inflammatory
medicine, and I have this thing called BBGS, beans, berries,
greens, seeds and nuts every single day.
You're laughing because you knowwhat I about to bring up.
I was like reading today's interview and thinking what else
is really on topic right now andI'm just going to throw in an IV
(01:23):
drip for many. The fact that people can say,
oh, OK, well we're going to takethis and it's going to somehow
get from your bloodstream into your mitochondria and it's going
to have this magnificent benefiton longevity, I think is real,
real fast stretched where actually if you want the best
bang for your buck, if you're interested in mitochondria help,
which people should be. Firstly, I want to say thank you
(01:47):
to tuning in and listening to the show.
It means a huge amount and connecting with all of you is
something that I absolutely love.
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(02:11):
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(02:34):
I can't believe we're finally doing this.
Yeah, I know. It's been a long time coming.
It's been such a long time coming.
You and I have both been in the well-being medicine, science,
health, nutrition field for 10-15 years.
Yeah. And this is the first time we're
sitting down to have a conversation.
I know, it's crazy. It's crazy.
(02:55):
It's good. It's really good.
And I, I feel like I wanted to start this conversation on
protein and anti-inflammatory foods and what that consists of
and NAD drips and supplements, you know, and I was like, great,
I've got a real light nutrition pro to sit alongside me and we
can really delve deep. And then I was like, I actually
(03:18):
want to start with you. So we're going to get on to all
of those things, but I actually wanted to start with you because
I know that people come into this field normally for a
personal reason. I did and you know, I've never
actually sat down and asked you this question, so I wanted to
kind of start there really. And for all of our listeners to
(03:38):
know you, you have gone on. How many books have you written
now? How many bestsellers?
Yes, there we go. So this is how much of A high
achiever this man is. Five best selling books, a tech
company or food and nutrition. Like literally turning medicine
into food and healing mechanisms.
And tell me why. Tell me what happened back in
2009 that made you redirect thispath.
(04:01):
Yeah. So, so my origin story, everyone
has an origin story. And I think it's really
interesting to dive into that because I think it really
reflects on like how you talk, how you think, who you connect
with, etcetera. So I went to Med school in 2003.
I did six years prior to that. I was like science kid, not
(04:24):
really into nutrition whatsoever, wasn't really into
sports. Like there was no real interest
in nutrition apart from how muchI loved cuisines.
Like my mum had instilled this in me when we were growing up.
Like we obviously had Punjabi, Indian food, we had Sri Lankan
food, but my mum was really exploratory.
(04:44):
So she would do Italian and American barbecue and all this
kind of stuff. We had like a nice healthy
balance I would say between whole unprocessed cooked food
from scratch with, you know, some fish fingers, like, you
know, some, some unhealthy itemsand stuff.
But she was really into food. And throughout Med school, I was
just like, you know, typical medical student, but I knew how
(05:06):
to cook. And so that was always with me.
Like I was able to do brisket and like, we could do barbecue
and then I would use spices. And my mum taught me how to make
a Thai basil lemongrass Curry inmy first year.
So I got this reputation of being like the guy that could
cook like throughout the whole of Med school, which is
(05:28):
something that I think is important to mention because you
kind of carry these labels with you wherever you go.
And in 2009, I started work in the NHSI, worked in a big DGH.
And three months into the job, you know, typical junior doctor
(05:48):
lifestyle, cereals, sandwiches, pasta, whatever.
You could grab your hands on something quick, cheap, easy
whilst you were working like crazy hours.
I had my first episode of atrialfibrillation which is things
that. That is for everyone.
Sure, it's a heart condition where your heart beats
irregularly due to it can be a number of different causes.
(06:13):
Sometimes people get it because they've had an infection.
Some people have it because they've taken drugs, some people
have it just for no apparent reason.
But we tend to see it in a much older age group, above the age
of 5560, growing in terms of prevalence.
Very, very unusual for a previously fit and well 24 year
(06:37):
old with no medical history, no medications, no alcohol drinking
history, nothing like that. And I remember I was writing in
the notes of the nurse's stationdoing a really busy string of
shifts that I'd done. It was like 8th day or something
of these shifts. And that's when I felt my heart
(06:59):
beating not just irregularly, but also very, very fast.
I was going at 200 beats per minute, as it turned out.
And just for context that peopledon't understand, think of like
when you go and you do a spin class or you do like a HIT
training or whatever and you were a heart rate monitor.
I can only really get mine to like 180, a 185.
So it's really up there and you feel it straight away and it
(07:22):
makes you feel like you want to faint, like, you know, you don't
know what's going on. I was just sat down and it took
me a little while to actually speak to my senior who is this
lovely registrar. And I said to her, like, would
you mind feeling my pulse? I think I'm going a bit fast.
And I was really sheepish about that because in medicine, as I'm
sure it's the same in many othercareers, you don't want to show
(07:44):
any weakness that you can't do it.
Like, you know, oh, this, this person's a bit of a weakling.
They can't, they don't have whatit takes to be like a medic.
And there's this real sort of alpha bravado type that really
comes out because that's sort ofwhat you need in medicine.
I would say, even though it's kind of unfashionable to say
that right now, I actually do think you need a little bit of a
(08:08):
switch in your brain that sort of ignores pain.
So with that in mind, I asked her.
And honestly, like within half an hour sleep taken off me,
stripped of my clothes, put intoa hospital gown, connected to a
cardiac monitor, because it was very, very clear from my ECG
that I was in Florida atrial fibrillation and I didn't have
(08:30):
to have a cardioversion procedure.
Like, you know, I wasn't shockedor given any chemicals at that
point because my blood pressure was stable and I wasn't having
any chest pain. And just just for the listener,
when you have atrial fibrillation, what happens is
your blood can get quite sticky and sometimes that can lead to
issues. It can lead to clots forming and
(08:52):
then go to brain where you can cause a stroke.
It can lead to heart attacks or cardiac arrest.
It can lead to clots going to different parts of your body
like the guts and that leading to gut ischemia.
So luckily I wasn't at risk of anything like that.
They monitored me. They gave me some anti
arrhythmic medications. I think it was flaconide at the
(09:14):
time and I reverted after 24 hours and I thought that was my
one and only episode. Maybe I hadn't had enough water,
maybe I had too many cups of tea.
There wasn't like a clear mechanism.
I was doing like shifts. It wasn't like I've been out
drinking the night before or anything like that.
And what I thought was going to be like a one off episode
(09:35):
actually started happening 2:00 to 3:00.
Times a week. Yeah.
And it was lasting anywhere between 24 and 36 hours.
It was just, like, really relentless.
And I remember feeling this sense of embarrassment that I
didn't have what it took to be amedic.
And I had to keep on taking, like, time off.
Like, every time I flipped into AF, it's like, like, what can I
(09:57):
do now? And the drugs that I was taking
as in the medical and the medications would make you feel
very, very nauseous and a littlebit like kind of woozy for one
of the better ones. It was just it wasn't a nice
place to be. And it like I'm alongside my
(10:18):
colleagues, right? They're eating the same stuff as
me. They're not working out like me.
They're tolerating the same stresses.
I'm a healthy way. I look quote UN quote normal.
I don't have any pre-existing issues.
So I just remember feeling this sense of like, ungratefulness
and like unfairness and frustration that I wasn't able
(10:39):
to keep with my colleagues. What was the big moment?
What was the crash? What?
Was the realization. The realization for me was like,
I'm going to have to do something about it.
And I went to see some of the best cardiologists and they all
pointed me in the in the direction of having what's
called an ablation procedure, which is where you put a
guidewire into the main vessel and then you burn an error on
(11:01):
the pulmonary vein to stop misfiring cells.
They couldn't ascertain a 'causeother than that.
So there wasn't something calleda re entry pathway.
There was nothing morphologically or structurally
wrong with my heart. It was simply I was going to if
and no one could really figure out.
And so I was offered this procedure which had a really
high success rate at the time, particularly for someone like
(11:23):
myself. I was a good candidate for it.
But the one person who said thatI should really think about my
diet and lifestyle was my mum. And my mum is not a medic, she's
not science trained. She's, you know, Indian mum,
very, very intelligent and I just thought she was bonkers and
she had no idea what she was talking about.
Back in 2003, I'm just going to say nutrition wasn't spoken
(11:44):
about very much. When I went to retrained
everyone told me I was mad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And genuinely nothing was, I mean, in the context of my
medical degree over six years, like when I was out in 2009,
like I, I, I can't remember any lectures.
I'm sure we had one or two, but definitely nothing of substance.
And so, so this idea that I should clean up my diet and, you
(12:08):
know, do some meditation, which is completely bonkers to me.
But if anyone knows a persistentIndian mum, you can't ignore
them, and nor should you, because.
The wisdom that she has bringing.
Yeah, exactly. And so with the blessing of my
cardiologist, I ended up, you know, changing my diet out with
the cereals and the soggy sandwiches.
(12:29):
In came leftovers, in came nuts and seeds, in came a more plant
based approach. I started eating more greens.
I started like, you know, swapping out the refined carbs.
I like got rid of pasta. I just did loads of like, quote
UN quote normal healthy things. And I had no direction.
I hadn't spoken to a nutritionist.
I was just sort of like, you know, leaning into like
(12:49):
MyHeritage and like what I know is whole and unrefined and all
the basics. I started doing meditation, I
started doing breath work, I started doing, I like to sleep
hygiene, just very, very basic things.
And over the course of this whole time period, I was
monitoring my AF episodes. And I remember just thinking
like, OK, it's been 3 months, I haven't had an episode.
(13:11):
And I used to get them two to three times a week.
What's going on? And then that stretched to six
months and that stretched to 12 months.
And then it was this realizationthat it went from two to three
times per week to 0. And you're still doing the same
job. Still doing the same job, never
took any sort of days off, neverstopped being a doctor, Wanted
to continue my training. Like there was one thing I, I
(13:34):
just did not want to let go of and that was being a doctor
because there were some people suggesting that maybe I should
take time off. Maybe I should do something
else. Maybe I should like reframe my,
my, my training because at the time, it's foundational year
training. And I remember thinking, no, no,
I've worked like for six years to get to this point.
I know what I want to do. I want to do surgery at the
time. Like I'm fastidious about it.
(13:55):
I don't want to give up my day job.
I can tolerate it. I mean, there were, I mean, I'm
ashamed to admit it now, but like there were times when I was
doing a shift and I was in AFI was like, I should have been
admitted, like the patients thatI was clocking in, but I was
just like grinning and bearing it.
And you can imagine like, you know, the feeling that you're on
a treadmill and you're working and you're doing a busy shift.
(14:21):
It was, it was not a nice feeling.
And I would go through this for like many, many shifts over the,
over that, that couple of years period.
But then it, you know, it dawnedon me.
I was like, well, this is crazy.Like somehow this has gone away.
No one said that there was goingto go away.
And my cardiologist said, you know, it'll probably come back.
It hasn't come back why on earththis is possible and and why
(14:45):
wasn't I taught about nutrition at Med school?
And why was that not given to you as a procedure to take as
like as something that I can't say preventable because you've
already got it, but as a, as a lifestyle intervention.
And I think about this similarlyto when people go to the GP for
so many different things, whether it's mental health,
whether it's fertility, like so little is spoken about lifestyle
(15:05):
interventions, right? And I kind of think, imagine if
you coupled those two things together, imagine if someone
with depression or fertility problems got the medical
interventions they needed alongside the nutritional
protocols. Like you would have such a
better outcome because you'd be doubling up.
Yeah, totally. And like I, I think about it
from the perspective of a medic as well who doesn't have any
(15:26):
nutrition training because they just haven't had any.
That's what I mean. Yet if someone comes to you and
you're like, yeah, I know you'resaying that you, I should be
doing this ablation procedure. And like, you're a professor of
cardiology, you've presented on this, you've looked at
recurrence rates, you've, you know, looked at the safety
protocols. Like this is, you know what
you've got your private practiceon.
But I'm also thinking about doing this diet stuff.
(15:48):
What do you reckon? Taking their position?
I'd be like, you're mad. Don't do that.
Do the ablation like, it's simple, safe, it's effective.
Yeah. Clean up your lifestyle if you
want, like, you know, do what you want.
But like, there was no directiongiven to that.
And I can sort of understand whyyou wouldn't.
But to your point, you know, at least giving it alongside and
(16:12):
actually being knowledgeable about it is something that we
should all be. And I think a lot more medics
are these days. We're definitely getting in tune
to it. And it's not the same as like,
Oh yeah, I do lifestyle medicine.
I tell people not to eat refinedproducts.
I tell them not to eat odd processed foods and tell them to
eat a bit more fibre. You know, it's not a tick boxing
exercise in that respect. Like people aren't stupid like
(16:32):
they, they know like these are the basics.
They need help. They need personalized
direction. They need to have a conversation
about the exactly what that means to them.
Which is why I think I've reallyexplored food through the lens
of not just nutrition and what'sevidence based, but also what's
relevant to the individual. And being AGP in London, you
(16:55):
know, I speak to people from allover the world like Sri Lanka,
Jamaica, Korea, like I'm not going to be recommending kale
salads to every one of those individuals.
It's going to be personalizing it.
And, and this is what I was doing like in 2000 and 1112,
whenever I started my GP training, I got this reputation
of being the GP that would talk to folks about nutrition.
(17:17):
And, but that's why my clinics will always go long.
That's why I was in a day to request.
And that's essentially where I got the idea of putting some
recipes online under this guise of doctor's Kitchen just to make
my clinics run a little bit moreefficiently because I was
writing down, you know, recipes for overnight oats time and time
(17:37):
again. So it's got to be an easier way
to scale what I'm doing now. And it's interesting because
like, you know, again, I'm, I'm sort of in the same position
where I need to scale what I'm doing right now.
And hopefully we're on the cusp of doing something like that
with with AI. Iron is one of the most common
deficiencies that I see in clinic, especially in women.
(18:01):
And it's not just about feeling tired.
Low iron can impact your energy,your focus, your mood and even
your immune system. It's something we really need to
be aware of because if left untreated, iron deficiency can
become very serious. Now UK data shows that around 20
to 35% of women aged 18 to 50 donot need the recommended dietary
(18:24):
guidelines for iron intake. And if you're pregnant,
menstruating or following a vegetarian or vegan diet, your
needs are even higher and therefore you're more at risk.
So that's why I often recommend Spartone.
Now this is a naturally sourced iron rich water that comes from
the Welsh hills. It contains ferrous iron, the
most absorbable form, with studies showing up to 40%
(18:47):
absorption. So your body can actually use
what it takes in. Now, it's also incredibly
gentle. It's one natural ingredient.
There's no harsh tablets and there's no digestive issues.
I use it myself and it is my go to in clinic.
You can pick up Spartone at Boots.
And if you've been feeling low in energy, it's absolutely worth
(19:07):
checking in on your iron with your doctor or GP.
Yeah, well, I want to talk to you about that.
And I think it's so interesting because we always have a, a
personal mission on what I mean,I think if you are as dedicated
as you've been, there's a personal mission behind it.
Right. And it's amazing to hear that,
(19:28):
what, 15 years later are we? I can't do my math that quickly.
But you've not had any more episodes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's amazing.
And you've now I've got a new book come out which is around
protein. So I feel like I need to start
there because in the sub stack compassionate Q of five
questions, which by the way, youall need to go and listen to, it
was amazing. You spoke about a cane phone
(19:49):
versus a Cal phone. And you will have to go and
listen to that episode if you want to know what that is.
But you spoke about the one small change that's had a big
impact is changing your breakfasts from sweet to
savoury. And you mentioned it there used
to live on cereals and. You know, lots of sweet, quick
processed foods, which also I dofind ironic that most hospitals
are just laced in only processedfoods.
(20:10):
It's like it's a food desert in in the hospital.
So you made this like obviously one quick change, which was your
breakfast was your first entry point.
Now I'm sure. I mean, you've read a book on it
now. Proteins having a big old.
It's. Like it's become the new kale.
Why do you think proteins havingsuch a moment right now?
(20:30):
I guess that's like the first question, because a lot of
people will go, is it a trend? Like should we be eating this
much protein? Can we get enough on our diet?
How much is enough? There's so many questions that I
want to debunk in the protein space, but why do you think now
it's having such a moment? I honestly don't know why the
hyper sort of galvanized of recent, but I know it's here and
(20:54):
it's here to stay. So when I did my nutritional
medicine Masters at University of Surrey, which is a phenomenal
institution, like the caliber oflectures and the professors out
there and the research that theydo, really, really like
absolutely phenomenal. That's kind of when I realized
(21:17):
that my diet, whilst it served me really well during my mid to
late 20s, early 30s, was deficient in a way that I didn't
realize until my late 30s and wehad this lecture.
I think it was from Doctor Adam Collins who does a lot of work
on oogenic acids and performancefor athletes.
(21:40):
That was when the penny dropped that whilst my diet was like
plant focused, colourful. Fibrous.
Quality fats, lots of fibre, youknow, beans as my protein source
and all this kind of stuff. I remember like, you know, like
thinking that was doing exactly the right thing.
I'm absolutely smashing this. Then I was like, my gosh, I, I
(22:02):
haven't actually figured out theamount of protein that I'm
consuming every single day. And as someone who likes to work
out every single day, I don't think I've really done the math.
It's quite embarrassing to say this like after doing this for
so long and looking at the research and and then I did the
calculation, looking at what I was consuming and I was
massively under consuming what compared to what I should be
(22:23):
eating as someone who works out regularly.
And then the question was, OK, so I should be eating about 1.6g
of protein per kilogram body weight per day, right?
We'll go into the nuance of thisa little bit.
Later if you like my next. Question.
Yeah, yeah. I wonder if other people would
benefit from having a similar amount or a higher target than
(22:47):
the current guidelines of 0.8g. Because my sort of party line
prior to this was we don't need to worry about protein, we need
to be worried about fiber. Everyone in the UK consumes
enough protein. Where we're really failing is
fiber. We should be having at least 30
grams of fiber. Some people would benefit from
more roundabouts. They're trying to get most of it
(23:10):
from whole, unprocessed foods asmuch as possible.
Grains, greens, you know, legumes, all that good stuff.
But then I realized the reason why the protein requirements
seem to be met by the vast majority of the population is
because the protein requirementsthat we have set are set at 0.8g
(23:32):
per kilogram of ideal body weight per 24 hours, which as it
turns out is pretty low and I would say.
Based on sedentary old men, Yeah, that's that's where,
that's how the traditional guidelines were made.
And so we're kind of giving thatreference to a younger healthy
population, which I think where it becomes a bit skewed.
(23:53):
Yeah, this. And I think the whole idea of it
being a singular number is flawed in so many different ways
because it's not respectful of lifestyle, life changes.
Things like breastfeeding, my wife's just gone through.
We're looking at her protein requirements.
Way really hard to get those up there actually in in line with
(24:14):
the current evidence. And that's when I sort of went
down a bit of a rabbit hole. And I looked at some of the
protein research that has been going on over the last 5-10
years. And they looked at like, you
know, they did muscle biopsies and people who are sedentary
versus exercising the leg, people in their 60s, people are
post menopause. And it turns out we need to be
consuming a minimum of 1.2g. And actually, when you speak to
(24:37):
researchers in the field and, you know, you have to realize
some of the caveats of this because unfortunately, a lot of
protein research is funded by egg industry or the dairy
industry or the beef industry. But that being said, you know,
there is a lot of evidence to suggest that we should be
consuming more. It doesn't necessarily mean that
we need to be consuming more meat, more ultra processed
(25:00):
protein bars, more ultra processed protein powders, but
there are healthier ways in which to get plant based
proteins that have the added benefit of fiber and and all the
other phytonutrients that we know are healthful for us as
part of our holistic diet. So that's when I started
shifting more and then I did themath on beans as well and I was
(25:21):
like, OK, 8 grams of protein per100 grams of cooked beans.
I need to be consuming circa 35 to 40 grams every single meal.
If I'm having like a good handful of chickpeas and
thinking that's my protein source, I'm under consuming
protein. And it's not a full protein.
And it's not a full protein. Which we're going to go into in
a minute. Yeah, before.
(25:41):
You carry on. I just want to read a couple of
stats that's going to like back up what you said.
So this is women, not men, but and, and, and men are I know are
very similar on this. Only 38% of UK women aged 19 to
64 hit the recommended daily protein intake, which we know
just said is 0.1, and that's from the NDS survey in 2024.
(26:02):
Newer studies suggest the optimal intake is probably
closer to 1.2, not 0.8, especially for ageing and
recovery. And that's in a review, a better
analysis 2025 review that you'vejust kind of mentioned.
So I think a lot of people when we're kind of looking at protein
as a whole, when I had Doctor Stacey Sims on here, who's been
(26:23):
on here quite a few Times Now, she actually recommends a little
bit higher, maybe even up to 1.6depending on your activity
levels and where you are in yourlife stages for women anyway.
So I wanted to unpack it here because most times people will
go, OK, well, I need 25 to 30 grams of protein per sitting.
And then the opposing argument to that is, well, I can't go
(26:43):
past a 30 grams of sitting because I won't be able to, you
know, use all of that protein. So what about protein
distribution? So let's just kind of like
unpack this part here. So we're kind of going, well,
the new research is showing likethe baseline, we should be
looking at 1.2. How do you encourage somebody to
look at their mill through the day and how many, how much
(27:05):
should they be optimizing throughout the day?
Yeah. So there's a couple of things in
there. There is this idea that you have
to consume a minimum amount of like 25 or 30 grams of protein
to start this process of muscle protein synthesis.
Actually, I think you can achieve this from lower doses.
So even if you only have the opportunity in a meal to have
(27:27):
15g or 20 grams, any amount of protein is still going to be
utilized your in your body. It's not going to be like, you
know, I'm going to consume underthe threshold, ergo I'm not
going to have any of these benefits.
You are still going to have someof those benefits.
Protein distribution I think waslike really popular as a topic,
particularly amongst gym goers and getting that sort of good
(27:50):
dose of protein in that 60 minute window after exercise
because that's when you're goingto get more assimilation of
those proteins etcetera, etcetera.
I think newer research suggests that you've got a much wider
window of opportunity to consumeyour protein.
So I'm much more interested in getting your protein target for
you in your 24 hours. So I'm less about like making
(28:13):
you need to hit exactly these amounts in exactly these
packages or these meals multiplein, in these windows of time
every single day. So I, I would say figure out the
total amount of protein you should be consuming.
My personal opinion is 1.2 as a minimum.
I think there are some benefits at 1.6 if you exercise if you're
(28:35):
at the age of 55 or over the ageof 50 if you're post menopausal
because. And that's because your protein
needs go up. Yes, because a number of reasons
a, your ability to digest protein tends to go down as we
get older. Maybe that is because of
digestive enzymes, maybe it's because of your microbial
(28:59):
distribution. So that tends to decline as we
know as we age as well. Your immune system also has a
knock on effect. Maybe that's because of
Microsoft quite complicated area, but you're right, we need
to consume more because we we don't absorb as much protein.
The other sort of more pragmaticperspective and especially
someone who's treated lots of geriatric patients and has seen
(29:21):
geriatric patients at their worst in hospital, your appetite
just disappears and it's really hard to actually consume enough
for your needs as well. So you've got this double whammy
of issues that you're that are occurring in these older age
groups. The benefits of more protein
beyond 1.6 to 2 or 2.2, I think you have to balance against the
(29:45):
issue of over consuming energy. And I, I don't really like to
talk about calories too much, but I think it's really
important to be aware that it isa very important part of the
equation when it comes to metabolic health.
And when you start pushing, particularly if you eat protein
from a blend of animal based products and plant based
proteins, which I'm a fan of, ifyou're skewing more towards
(30:09):
animal based proteins, you risk over consuming that in the form
of excess calories and. The fats.
And the fats as well, if you're having like fattier cuts of meat
or fattier cuts of red meat, whatever you risk over consuming
calories. And then there's less space for
you to have from other sources like nuts and teas that I think
(30:30):
are something that we should be leaning more into.
So that's why I think a healthy middle ground is like 1.2.
It's higher than what we're consuming right now.
It's, it encourages you to really think about that
breakfast protein that we'll talk about in a, in a bit as
because I think there are wider benefits beyond just the total
protein intake. And it also means that you are
(30:51):
protecting all the other things that protein is responsible for.
So not just your muscles, but your bone health, your immune
health, all the sort of productsof proteins that we have in our
body that no one really fully appreciates.
And hopefully when people like read the book Healthy Eye
Protein, they'll have a new lensin which to to look at protein
(31:15):
because it's not just about meatand muscles, it's about much,
much wider aspects of our Physiology.
I've watched the science of adaptations grow personally over
the last few years, and I've become more curious in their
role in nervous system support, focus, and resilience because
adaptogens basically buffer the cortisol that gives us that
stress and anxiety. But here's the thing, quality is
(31:37):
everything. Most adaptations on the market
don't actually contain enough ofthe active compounds that you
see in clinical studies to make a difference.
That's why I've partnered with London Nootropics.
These guys only use clinical studies, standardized extracts.
It's really, really important toget the benefits that you're
seeing in clinical research. And they work with HIF Asta
Terra, Europe's leading mushroombioscience company.
(31:59):
They have high bio availability,they use incredible ingredients
like KSM 66, Ashwagandha, Amarodola life and these are the
active ingredients that you needto see the difference.
They have lots of different blends.
Flow gets me into deep focus with Lion's Mane Zen have
support my calm study my claritywith Ashwagandha and Mojo gives
a clean lift, no crash and mush love.
Made with fantastic fungi with three Hefasta Terra mushrooms to
(32:22):
elevate your day. Enjoy 20% off and use code Live
well, be well. They come in these fantastic
little sachets and they're greatfor travelling too.
So I think when people think maybe they're listening to this
when they're on a bike or they're in a car or they're on a
run, maybe they're watching thison YouTube when they're in the
evening. And sometimes I'm aware that the
(32:42):
terminology that we use to be really confusing for people and
they're like, OK, 1.2g per body weight for myself, didn't go to
nutritional science school. What the hell is that?
So like if someone's trying to break it down, let's say a 35
year old, I just put it myself in the shine. 35 year old woman,
you know, and a 40 year old man with the two case studies sat
(33:06):
here, how much should we be looking at throughout our day?
Like what does that actually look like in terms of food?
Because this is literally a wheelhouse.
This is literally what you do. You show people how they can
consume that practically but also deliciously.
I just have to add, it's very true through the day.
So how can one look at it in terms of like mill size and
plate size? Because I do think that
(33:27):
sometimes when we start talking about grams, people are like,
well, what even is 25 grams? It's a really good point.
So I think it's worth doing a little bit of math.
OK, and I say this in the book, actually there there are I I
love doing arithmetic. I don't like doing maths
actually, like algebra and all that kind of stuff.
Like I scrape through my AS levels.
But so when we do the, the math of 1.2 or like in your case,
(33:50):
because you exercise regularly, you could probably benefit from
that higher level, especially ifyou spoke to Stacey Sims, She's
a big fan of like the higher amounts, which you know, as long
as everything is in balance. I'm, I'm, I'm totally on board
with. So you want to be looking at
your ideal body weight. So let's say we're looking at
someone who is overweight, maybethey're overweight by 20 kilos
(34:14):
or so. You don't want to be using your
current weight, which is 20 kilos plus.
You want to be using your ideal weight.
So whatever the kilogram amount that you times that 1.2 by or
1.6, you want to be using the ideal body weight.
Similarly, if you are underweight as well, you'll be
using your ideal body weight. So that's the first part of the
equation. Then let's say we'll use myself
because I can do the math a little bit in my head.
(34:35):
I'm around 75 kilos. I'm trying to opt for 1.6g.
That's my ideal body weight. Ergo, I need to be consuming
around 120 grams of protein per day, which is 40 grams of
protein split across three different meals.
For argument's sake, as that's the typical eating pattern.
What does 40 grams of protein look like in a typical meal?
(34:55):
All right, so let's take and I have a picture, a number of
different pictures in the book because I want people to be good
estimators or guestimators of protein, protein when they make
their breakfast. So if I think about get it out,
yeah, sure. Look are.
You even impressed what I boughtyour book with.
Me, I'm very impressed that you got it.
Yeah, yeah. That's the page there.
If you're on YouTube, yeah, or listening, maybe it's on
(35:18):
Spotify. They now have our full videos
up. You'll be able to see.
So OK, talk us through this. So for this morning's breakfast
for me, I had 150 grams of Greekyoghurt.
So that was a good couple of heat tablespoons.
I know from this diagram that Greek yoghurt is around 10 grams
(35:38):
of protein per 100 grams. Full fat, always full fat.
And it's strange. So any strain yoghurt is going
to be high in protein because you're getting rid of some of
the water and the sort of techniques sort of concentrate
those proteins. So 150 grams.
I'm looking at about 12 grams ofprotein there.
I enriched this with some peanutbutter.
Peanut butter is I love peanut butter.
(36:01):
Like crunchy, 100%. No added salt, no added parmore,
none of that, no added sugar, none of that stuff.
By just adding a couple of tablespoons of that, we're
enriching that yoghurt, and we're boosting that yoghurt by
around 7 or 8 grams of protein. So that's 20 grams in total.
I'm going to add a handful of mixed nuts to that.
(36:21):
So that's again around 8g or so,depending on how big your hand
is. And then I'm also going to have
that with some berries. And on the side I had some my
doctor's kitchen bread with a bit of hummus as well.
So it was a bit of a mix and match situation this morning.
And that got me close to, I'd say 35 grams of protein just
from those elements. So that for me is like a healthy
(36:44):
high protein breakfast. It's got nuts and seeds.
They're anti-inflammatory. I've got some berries in there.
I've got my protein, I've got mybase.
That's like an I an ideal way ofof eating.
Let's say I haven't had lunch yet, but my lunch is going to be
some some like a, do you know farmer, farmer Jays.
I love farmer Jays. It's so good.
(37:05):
It's just like so easy because everything I know I really feel
like I should have, I I like andwhen it came out I was so
jealous. I was like Farmer Jays, that
name sucks. But but in all honesty, like
it's really good. So you know, if anyone's in
London, you, you know what I mean.
They have these fuel trays and you can see everything.
And they have like they portion it out, don't they?
(37:26):
Portion it out and so if I go tofarmer Jays and I know I want I
tend to eat plant based when I'mout.
So I will go for the tempeh option.
If you look at tempeh in the book, per 100 grams, it's around
25 grams of protein, which is. You might not even heard of
tempeh. Yeah.
Well, tempeh is a fermented soybean product and the benefit,
and I talk about this in the book as well, the benefit of
(37:47):
fermenting your legumes is that it increases the availability of
those proteins. It makes it slightly more gut
healthy as well because you've got some of those parabiotic
benefits of the of the microbes.It tastes delicious as well and
it's easier to digest. So that, you know, 200 grams of
that, that's going to give you around 30 grams of protein as a
(38:08):
minimum. And then I'm going to be having
it with like grains and like some greens and stuff.
All those different elements like your grains and your
greens. They also have protein in as
well. Not very much.
And I put that in the. Apart from quinoa, because
quinoa is actually more of a protein food than a carbohydrate
food which is into rice. Yeah, yeah.
I mean it's a pseudo grain. So it's not not strictly a
grain. It's a seed, which is why it's
(38:30):
got like the a weird sort of look to it when you when you
cook it. But but you're right, yeah,
quinoa is like slightly higher in protein.
And then even your green. So when you have like a cup of
greens, like 100 grams, that's around anywhere between two or
three grams of protein in that alone.
A lot, a lot of people realize that.
So every little bit adds up. And this is where you can
actually quite easily achieve a healthy high protein meal with
(38:55):
some of these different elementsas well.
And I have this sort of like thing, I don't think I wrote
about it in the book, but you want to start with your core
protein. So that could be chicken or fish
or tempeh or tofu. These are high quality proteins.
Eggs, another really good high quality protein, about 6g per
average egg cooked. Then you want to have a plant
(39:16):
based partner. So that could be your legumes.
It could be lentils because as you'll realise when you read the
book, lentils and chickpeas whenthey're cooked are relatively
low in protein. They're not a core protein
source. So they average between 6:00 and
8:00 grams per 100 gram of cooked bean.
And even at the higher one like black beans and Pinto, you know,
(39:37):
we're looking at 8 to 9 grams. So it's, it's not a, it's not
complete protein and B, it's notenough total protein either.
So you want to have a core protein plant based partner and
a Topper. And the Topper could be
nutritional yeast. It could be hemp seeds, one of
my favorite seeds. They're about 30 grams of
protein per 100 grams. It could be mixed nuts, it could
(39:59):
be peanut, it could be whatever you want.
But if you have this formula every single meal time, that's
how you're going to easily get to your protein goal.
And then like, you know, dinner,I mean, last night my wife came
back from holiday and I cooked her, it was like a, an arabiata
sauce with I think we put aubergine in it.
I put chickpeas in it. Some chicken that I'd made.
(40:22):
I splashed some chicken at the weekend.
So I just shaved a bit of that and then I added some.
Protein through that and then added some moringa leaves.
Have you ever used moringa leaves fresh?
Never heard of that. Oh man, so there's like a a
Turkish store nearby to us. We live in North London and
moringa fresh is like a really bitter version of rocket.
(40:42):
And when you put it into a saucewith tomatoes and other acidic
it kind of mellows the flavour and is absolutely delicious.
But if you don't want to be thatbougie, you can just use
spinach. I mean, at one point Kel wasn't.
I know. Yeah, It's having a moment and
it's costing more than anything else.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a big fan of couple of
narrow as well. But that's how like I, like, I
(41:06):
want people to visualize what itmeans to eat a high protein meal
in a healthy way, because we've been led to believe that high
protein has to be chicken, chicken, chicken, chicken,
chicken, like chicken for breakfast, lunch, dinner and
dessert. Like it, like it doesn't have to
look like that. That's bland is boring.
You know, it's, it's this idea of high protein having to be
(41:28):
about muscle food and muscle growth.
And whilst that's very importantto preserve, particularly as it
pertains to the longevity sphere, it does not need to look
that mundane and bland. And as as a foodie, I would
never create a book that was just about, you know, just the
single protein source. You just mentioned there a
terminology that's really interesting.
(41:49):
It's a buzzword. And I'm, I, I believe in, you
know, I believe I'm all for health span medicine, you know,
things that are going to help improve our quality of life, get
us to live, you know, enjoy our quality of life longer.
Longevity is a term that I'm finding a little bit harder to
relate to now just because of this fear that it's gone in.
But protein is having its momentin the longevity circles.
(42:13):
So we now understand like how much protein we should be having
around 1.2g, potentially up to 1.6.
You've just explained so well how we can kind of distribute
that through our day in terms offood and food quality and
nourishment, because they also contain great like polyphenols
in there and fibrous foods, likethey all are a great mix and
blend. But why is protein so connected
(42:36):
to this longevity space that is just booming and booming and
booming? Yeah, I think it's because we've
realized the pragmatic approach to increasing health span is
having a muscle centric view of,of health of healthy ageing.
And I I even struggle with that because I don't think it's all
(42:58):
about muscles. As I said earlier, I think it's
also about bone health or immunehealth, skin health, etcetera.
And for that we need protein, so.
It's the building block. Exactly.
So just stepping back a bit, thethe reason why I'm so passionate
about the subject is because proteins are literally the
building blocks of life. So when you consume protein,
whether it's coming from tempeh or edamame or nuts and seeds,
(43:20):
you break it down into the corresponding amino acids of
which there are 9 essential 20 odds that are non essential.
But yeah, it's a bit of weird terminology depending on who you
ask that there are like 22 or some say like more or less.
That aside, we break it down into these corresponding aminos
and then they are repackaged into whether it's part of your
(43:41):
organ, whether it's an immune cell, whether it's bone cell.
These are these are all parts ofthe same protein Lego like
blocks. And so when we get older, the
ability of us to actually package and build the same
molecules is impaired for a number of different reasons.
(44:03):
A lot of people say mitochondrial health.
So that's the sort of energy organelles.
Yeah, they actually have a role in like immune health and self
signalling as well. But yeah, they're they're sort
of colloquially known as the power, the the battery cells of
our cells. And and then when you think
(44:24):
about this from the perspective of what tells older people what
knocks them for six, it is frailty.
It's fools. It's literally fools.
And why do people fall? It's because of a blend of poor
stability, poor proprioception so that the ability of us to
think of our body in space and also the musculature that will
(44:48):
enable us to be solid. And the reason why is because A,
we're not very good at exercising and B, we're we're
very sedentary, I'd say. But B.
There is a. Yeah, I know.
Yeah, I always, I always think about myself when I'm doing a
podcast and I talk about this concept.
But the importantly, there is a natural degradation of our
(45:10):
muscles as we age over time. And that's just unfortunately
inevitable. It's not to say that you can't
reverse that with exercise in particular and protein, but it
is generally what happens if youdon't do anything about it.
When you're in your 20s and 30s,you look at dumbbell and you you
can build muscle. When you're older than that, you
have to work a lot harder. But I also think that the reason
(45:33):
why this is so important, because obviously we have such a
variety of listeners on the showfrom people from 20s to, you
know, up to 60s, is that you have to start young, you know,
getting your body attuned to this now and getting the
signalling going and on, on all of these exercises and building
that muscle growth helps the prevention, right?
Rather than getting to 50 and thinking, OK, now I need to
(45:55):
start weight training or thinking about protein, we
really need to be thinking aboutthis when we're 20.
I I think an analogy is our pensions right?
So in a perfect world everyone would have started an ISA
account and not spent any penny of their ISA and contributed the
Max amount every single year from age 18.
(46:16):
And that's our ISA and the pension as well also.
Please do that so. I know it's so good and I wish I
did this like, you know, for myself as well, but this is the,
the correct analogy to be using because in the same way,
investing in our pension is great for our financial health,
investing in our muscle health and our stability and our core
strength. This is great for our overall
(46:39):
health as we get older as well. So, and for the reasons that we
discussed earlier, it gets harder to consume enough protein
when you're older, Your threshold is a lot higher to
increase your, your, your muscles and your bone health.
So you need to start early, as early as possible.
And the evidence is, is clear that, you know, if you are less
(47:00):
frail, you're less likely to have the fall and you're less
likely to experience the risks of of having fall.
And it's just it's a really, really big problem.
So the best medicine is to try and prevent that as much as
possible. And one of the ways in which we
do that is by getting enough protein, but also exercise.
And I think exercise is probablythe biggest lever, even though I
know I've just written a book about high protein.
I think I say in the book it waslike, I don't want to like
(47:22):
convince you otherwise. Exercise is the best, but
proteins are very close second. Well, they're two Co partners,
right? I'm glad to that because I mean,
this is not a sob story, but I lost my grandmother in COVID to
a fall. And you know, you kind of think,
I think about her and I go, wow,she was so switched on.
Her mind was there. You know, she had so many
amazing more years in herself. But the thing that killed her
(47:46):
was her hip when she went up tooquickly to try and get the post.
And that made me think about allof these different combinations
of how I should be living now, which is really important
because I think a lot of us think about chronic disease and
inflammation. And that's the next question,
you know, around inflammation. But I do think that we don't
(48:07):
ever think about just taking ourhealth for granted and having a
fall, and that could be the end.It literally could be.
Yeah, it's it's so sad, but it'sso common.
So let's go to anti-inflammatoryfoods, OK?
Yeah, because I think this is, let's take it up a level if we
can, anti-inflammatory foods. So it's interesting.
(48:28):
I actually got a text yesterday from a really good friend saying
hi babe how are you My my husband's mother-in-law has just
been also. I don't want this to also all
feel like this is for people that are.
This is. Why I want me to think about it
now. My mother-in-law has just been
diagnosed with arthritis and she's got it in her hands.
What anti flammatory and foods are good And I was literally had
(48:51):
your book open on the anti. Inflammatory Index.
And I was like, well, this is obviously something that people
want to know about. I'm sure you are that person on
speed of many of your friends when something happens in in the
family and your people are goingwell, can I ask for advice?
So, you know, inflammation, it'sthe, you know, it's, it's such a
(49:12):
big topic that's spoken about. It's like it's the lead of any
chronic disease. And there's so many factors that
can influence our information from stress, exercise also
influences our inflammation, butalso food and also environment
and you know, products that we're using things around the
home. But people might not have heard
of the anti-inflammatory kind ofindex.
(49:34):
So I want to talk about anti-inflammatory foods and the
dietary inflammatory index. And so there's a really
interesting study where I just want to touch upon before we get
into what that is, which was an analysis of 128,612 people from
the UK Biobank participants aged60 plus.
Now it basically showed something very interesting which
(49:57):
looked at higher plant protein and fibre intakes, which were
associated with significantly lower CRP levels, which are your
inflammatory markers. Whereas high animal protein was
linked to higher CPR levels, which is very interesting
because I always find that a really interesting marker for
people. And obviously people with
inflammatory bowel disease can have very high levels of of this
(50:17):
when they're going into attacks.So can you start first of all
explaining what this is and why it's important and what foods
are contained in it? Because from that it's more
plant based foods. Yeah, yeah.
And you'd, you'd imagine that, wouldn't you like the results of
that to me and you are probably not that surprising, increasing
plant protein, increasing fibre,although behalf reduces
(50:39):
inflammation across the the majority of people.
But I think this whole idea of inflammation is, I want to
reframe it slightly for folks because I think people think of
inflammation as universally a bad thing.
And actually inflammation is so,so important for our body.
It's the reason why me and you can have this conversation in
(51:01):
the middle of London surrounded by environmental pollutants,
from the exhaust fumes, surrounded by viruses,
surrounded by all these different unfortunate pathogens
and still thrive and not not come down to fluoride, sepsis or
like a generalized infection. So the way I like to get people
(51:24):
to conceptualize inflammation isit's kind of like your internal
campfire and your internal campfire.
If you imagine like we, we go away to the British countryside
or something and we set up camp and we do what every good sort
of like camping holiday does. Get it get out sticks and you
know, put campfire on, get some marshmallows going.
(51:45):
A campfire is a wonderful thing.It provides beautiful light, it
provides warmth. It could we keep predators out.
We can cook our food on it. It's it's great.
But if our campfire was to go unwieldy, it was to get out of
control. We might overcook our pasta.
If we're eating pasta we might we might like, we might burn
(52:12):
ourselves. It could become so unruly that
it burns the entire campsite down.
This is sort of like the language of your immune system.
It's getting this balance correctly.
On the one side we need inflammation.
On the other side, too much inflammation can be a bad thing.
And so whilst it has a role in fighting pathogens and
(52:32):
signalling as part of your immune system, when that becomes
completely out of whack, this iswhere issues arise.
And we know that people with excess inflammation and there
are multiple ways in which we can measure inflammation in the
body, although I think the way we measure it currently today,
it's quite crude. So we use things like CRP or
high sensitivity CRP in research.
(52:55):
We use things like interleukins like IO6.
You might see there's some papers if you if you read them
online. We know that people with raised
inflammation have higher risks of metabolic disease.
We know it's associated with obesity, we know that it's even
associated with mental health issues as well, high
inflammation that can come from diet or sedentary behaviour,
autoimmune conditions as well, all these different things.
(53:17):
So, so we know that as a foundation we want to be
bringing our inflammation levelsin balance.
And the reason why our inflammation levels high is a
because of diet. So lack of fibre feeding our gut
microbes ensuring that or not having enough of the polyphenols
in our diet. You explain what they are very.
Quickly, So polyphenols are colourful pigments that you find
(53:40):
in different fruits and vegetables, but also beige ones
as well. I think we forget about
mushrooms and onions, you know, those have like novel plant
chemicals that are great. There are literally something
around 7 or 8000 phytochemicals that have been identified, many
of which are not studied. Some of which you might have
come across like resveratrol because everyone loves to talk
(54:02):
about resveratrol because it's in red wine.
But it's also been like dried grapes and peanuts and, and all
that kind of stuff or quercetin that you find in alien
vegetables, onions. But there were literally
thousands and we, we haven't actually like fully crossed how
important all of them are. They are together.
My perspective is you want to hedge bets and just try and get
as many different polyphenols inyour diet as possible.
(54:25):
The other things that can raise inflammation, apart from the
absence of some of those elements in the diet, are things
that sedentary behaviour like what we're doing right now, so.
Do we have to like do star dumpsin between?
I know. Like I feel like, yeah, I mean,
I'm very twitchy. So I, I do like shift around.
But yeah, like the way I like people to think of century
behaviour, particularly if you work in an obvious space
(54:46):
environment is like your inflammation level creeps up the
longer you are like in this position.
So it just like goes up every hour, just like, and what you
want to do is is discharged. I know it's very uncertific, but
you want to discharge some of this inflammation by getting up,
going outside, maybe doing some lunges, star jumps, if you like.
(55:07):
This sort of like brings it backdown into level because exercise
as a net effect is actually anti-inflammatory.
In the short term it's pro, but in the long term it's it's
anti-inflammatory. The other things that probably
doesn't get enough airtime, stress, poor sleep, loneliness,
these are all things. They're all massive.
Factors. Yeah, big, big factors.
(55:27):
But going back to the index of the anti-inflammatory foods, so
and you mentioned some polyphenols, so basically most
plant based foods. Yeah, right.
That would be like some of the highest because I bet people
listen to this going, oh, what about turmeric?
Turmeric. I thought that was an
anti-inflammatory food. And so there's been a few
buzzwords on what anti-inflammatory foods is, but
for anyone maybe struggling withhigh amounts of inflammation,
(55:50):
maybe that's an autoimmune condition, maybe that is it
could be a mixture of things. And as you said, it's also very
linked to mental health. What should they be looking in
this index of foods that's goingto lower the inflammation or
support it? So aside from like, you know,
trying to address the pro inflammatory factors, diet is
one of those big levers, I wouldsay probably secondary to
exercise again, but diet is a really, really big legal.
(56:12):
I know, I know. I just I'd have to do a lot more
research. So the way to think about
anti-inflammatory foods is groupthem into categories and this is
largely based on the DII. So the dietary inflammation
index, something that we actually used when we created
our anti-inflammatory category on the Doctors Kitchen app as
well. So every recipe broadly is
anti-inflammatory and we did themath on that as well, which is a
(56:36):
lot of math. So herbs and spices, really easy
ways to get strong anti-inflammatory foods into
your diet. So if you look at the OREX
scores and the antioxidant scores and the DII scores, these
all score the highest, IE they, they are the most
anti-inflammatory. So things like turmeric, clove,
cinnamon, kitchen counter herbs,oregano, basil, marjoram, these
(56:59):
are just as impressive in terms of the anti-inflammatory
effects. A lot of them are down to their
unique polyphenols, but because we don't consume them in
significant quantities, whilst they are the most powerful, they
overall will contribute some butnot the majority.
I would say of the anti-inflammatory benefit of
your entire diet. Fats really, really important.
(57:20):
So extra virgin olive oil as an example is again very
anti-inflammatory. You also have things like nuts
and seeds. That's why I like a handful of
nuts. Seeds I think is great for
everyone every single day. It's been shown in the predimed
study. It's been shown in a lot
multiple different studies to benet beneficial for your heart as
well and. It's polyunsaturated fats just
to mention that, rather than like trans fats.
(57:41):
Yeah, yeah. I mean trans fats generally we
luckily we don't have too much of that in our diet if any at
all. But yeah, merely Poly and
monounsaturated fatty acids also, they contain things like
vitamin E, which we know can contribute to healthy heart,
healthy brain, anti-inflammatoryagain.
And then also the the types of nuts all have their different
(58:06):
sort of varying ratios of fats as well.
So again, like I just take a, a spread breaking approach.
I don't just focus on one nut like pistachios, I focus on
sunflower seeds and hemp seeds and tahini nut butters, all that
kind of stuff. So you want to try and get a
good healthy collection of fats also from things like fatty
fish, so salmon, sardines, herring, the smaller the better.
(58:28):
Anchovies I absolutely love. I know that's a bit.
I put them on my omelette. Oh.
I put them everywhere, yeah, putthem into like curries and.
Stews. Sometimes they eat the straight
from the can to be honest, but or the OR the glass jar.
But yeah. So the these are really, really
good quality fats, these fatty acids that contribute to
dissolve ends and anti-inflammatory action.
(58:50):
So you want to be getting like oily fish and then berries.
So the colourful fruits I have apunch on for berries because
they tend to be high in some of these powerful anti-inflammatory
chemicals and the cyanines and and the like, I get them fresh
where I can, but also frozen is also good strategy, particularly
(59:11):
for things like blackcurrants, bilberries.
These are all like really high in in fact, blackcurrants.
I believe the high Samantha Cyanins may be.
Secondary to Husk. Sciences, so they're yeah.
So they're a type of phytochemical or, or plant
chemical that responsible for the the deep purple blue colour
(59:32):
that you get in in berries. So blueberries and blackcurrants
and the Have you heard of something called the Huskba
Berry? Yeah, I have many years ago the
company that started. In yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they they have a product, I don't know the company
personally, but like they have aproduct where they're they're
freeze dried and powdered. These berries that are hard to
(59:53):
get in the UKI think they're grown in Canada, but those I
think are the highest in anti signings.
So I mean, it's not like a top Trump's game here.
Like you're not just trying to always go for the top ones.
Again, it's about diversity. Seeing things like aubergines,
Yeah, exactly. They're high in it as well.
Exactly, yeah. So you know, you want to try and
get for as many different sources as possible because what
(01:00:13):
one like an onion might be lacking in terms of anti
signings or other pigments. A white onion will certainly
make it up in other ways. Maybe that's Quercetin or Alice
or whatever it might be. So the best approach is just
trying to get from multiple different sources.
And the other thing is fibre. And the reason why fibre is
anti-inflammatory is because youare supporting these microbes,
(01:00:35):
many of whom are are working to reduce inflammation in your body
as well, nourishing the gut cells with their metabolites.
So they work away, they digest the food, they create these
fatty acids and there's nourish the clonocytes, the the, the
lining of your cells, they reduce the permeability of your
guts. That in in in turn reduces the
(01:00:59):
over activation of your immune system that reduces inflammation
as a net effect. So if you're doing these things
across the board, you're gettingherbs and spices, you're getting
oil, fish, you're getting extra virgin olive oil, you're getting
berries, you're getting good quality fats, you're and getting
enough fibre, like getting a really good dose of this
(01:01:20):
anti-inflammatory medicine. And I have this thing called BB
GS, I don't know if you've come across it before, but beans,
berries, greens, seeds and nuts every single day.
You want to try and get one of each of these every single day.
It doesn't need to be all the same meal, but like half of
berries, handful of beans or legumes, lentils, whatever you
like greens. I try and get greens every meal,
even breakfast, but you know, a couple of portions cooked and
(01:01:43):
seeds and nuts a handful every day.
If you hit your BB GS every single day, it's one of the most
potent anti-inflammatory medicines I think you can you
can take. I'm going to put this in a
context and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I'm
not. It sounds like the Mediterranean
diet. I'm just trying to keep it as
simplified as possible for people right where, you know,
(01:02:05):
the Mediterranean diet is probably one of the the worst
well studied diets out there, right when it comes to nutrition
and health, whether that even befor things like mental health.
And look at the SPALS trial by Philly Stracker all the way kind
of across the board, the Mediterranean diet seems to be
kind of one of the most supported and studied areas for
your health overall. And So what I'm hearing is a lot
(01:02:28):
of the Mediterranean diet foods are in this anti-inflammatory
index. Totally.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. If you look at the Mediterranean
diet as a whole through the lensof the DII, it is
anti-inflammatory. If you look at like even the
most I know food pyramids and, and plates are like out of
fashion at the moment. If you remove some of the
(01:02:48):
refined products that they have on the plate, I would say that's
net anti-inflammatory. You know, the modified
Mediterranean diet like the minddiet for dementia and, and, and
brain health, again, anti-inflammatory.
So there are common themes throughout different diets that
have been studied that are like,you know, generally healthy
(01:03:11):
plant focused whole removing on refined products and using good
quality fats. Yeah.
So what I want to come onto now,which I know is a bit of a spin
because you've just spoken aboutanti-inflammatory foods, which
is predominantly Mediterranean based.
It sounds like we're speaking indepth about protein, about why
it's important for the lifespan and how we can again diversify
(01:03:34):
protein throughout the day and the different types of sources.
You're laughing because you knowwhat I about to bring up, but I
was like reading today's interview and thinking what else
is really on topic right now. And I'm just going to throw in
an IV drip, random, I know, but so in context, right, everything
(01:03:55):
that we're talking about, I don't want to sound like sounds
simple because it's not. Because when we actually break
down, you know, we've really gotto like rethink our habits and
how we're going to structure these in the day and prep time
and, you know, making sure that we reduce the friction in all
these areas to create a healthy foundation of a diet in
everyone's busy lives. It's easier said than done.
But the interesting thing is I was on this again, like a
(01:04:17):
longevity type of panel last week and everyone was asking
about this topic. It was kind of like one of the
biggest things. So I've just read in a big
article on it for sub stack and I thought actually might be
really interesting to talk aboutthis today.
So and then you said actually it's been asked a few a few
times. So NAD it's a supplement that so
(01:04:37):
many people are now trying to take intervene C within their
taking it as an IV drip one. I wanted to ask more thoughts on
that as a medical doctor or people are taking it in
supplement Forbes, which is lessabsorbable, but we can kind of
like get into that in the beginning.
First of all, like can you explain what Ned is for people
that are listening that don't know what it is?
And what are your thoughts on kind of the hype around it at
(01:04:59):
the moment? Yeah, so I looked into NAD when
I had someone on the podcast a few years talking about it and
it was still quite new to me then.
And honestly, it's still quite new to me now, but from what
I've seen, I'm not convinced that it's a good spend of your
time or your money because thesedrips do take a while as well to
(01:05:21):
like to, to take. So what is NAD?
So NAD is nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide OK or or
abbreviated as NAD plus. And it's really interesting as a
molecule because it is a cofactor in the energy
generation within the cell, the mitochondria.
(01:05:42):
So it 100% has a role and the interest in the longevity space
is the amounts of this molecule appear to decline over time,
which is why a lot of people aretaking versions of Ned or the
precursor called NMN which is the mono or not.
Not the dyneclotide, but the mononucleotide of that in an
(01:06:06):
attempt to reasonably increase Ned in the cell.
The issue is, whilst we might have seen some of these effects
in rodent models and animal models, there's real lacking
human troll evidence. And for anyone that knows
anything about pharmaceutical drug trials, just because you've
(01:06:29):
seen it in an animal model does not mean that it's going to be
the same in the human. In fact, the vast majority of
drugs have been completely pulled or not even made it to,
you know, pass the first phase of human trials because they
just didn't work. So that's the first thing I
think people need to wrap their head around.
When you see an animal study or you see someone promoting it
(01:06:50):
based on an animal study, red flag straight away.
It should just be that's interesting.
It's cool. I, I, I love, like some of these
animal based studies, but it does not translate into an
evidence based action to take inthe human world.
So when you look at the issues around NAD boosters or NMN, a,
(01:07:13):
like you alluded to, there's theform factor.
So supplements, oral intake tends to be completely digested
and, and there's nothing that goes into your bloodstream.
So people had the smart idea of,OK, well, let's, let's do an IV
drip. IV drip sort of bypasses that
metabolism and that that metabolic pathway.
(01:07:35):
But again, there's no evidence that it actually gets into the
place where you want it in the cell.
And in fact, we don't actually know a lot about that conduit
between the mitochondria. So these these organelles in
your cell and the cytoplasm, which is the space around the
cell, We actually don't know a lot about that relationship as
(01:07:57):
and of itself. So the fact that people can say,
oh, OK, well, we're going to take this and it's going to
somehow get from your bloodstream into your
mitochondria, and it's going to have this magnificent benefit on
longevity, I think is a real, real fast stretch today.
I'm happy to have my mind changed when some human tribe
(01:08:18):
evidence comes, but I have not seen anything remotely close to
the hype that has been generatedaround this to qualify for me
taking time out of my day to sitand have an IV drip for an hour
or two hours. Where actually, if you want the
best bang for your buck, if you're interested in
mitochondrial health, which people should be, go and do
(01:08:41):
exercise, do a HIT train, do a zone 2 training, do anything
that increases mitochondrial Biogenesis that we can actually
measure from, from biopsies and stuff.
That's where I put my money. Do maybe some cold exposure if
you want as well. Maybe there's some benefits of
that. I'm much more convinced of that
evidence than I am for the NMN supplementation evidence.
(01:09:02):
The other things I would say, which again doesn't get talked
about enough, I would invest in therapy, like if I had the like
choice between spending £100 or £200 on an IV supplement a
couple of times. We don't know what the dosing is
either. Like that's the thing, like
let's talk about that. Yeah, like the like, I've got no
(01:09:22):
idea how much we should be taking, whether it should be a
daily thing, whether it's a weekly thing, like I've got no
idea. So I would, I would rather spend
my money having two sessions of therapy every single month.
Like I think it's going to have a much better impact on
longevity or health span than any of these supplements.
So I'm really really bearish on NAD boosters in total, as you
(01:09:47):
can probably tell, but happy to be convinced otherwise.
Yeah, it's interesting because Iwas just bringing up what I
written about and I said exactlythe same thing.
And that's why I started writingabout this, because I was on
that panel, but also I'd had an NAD because I always find it
interesting. I want to go and trial things
and I actually had it taken out of me because it made my heart
because obviously it's energy, right.
(01:10:09):
So you do feel quite flustered. That's one of the side effects.
But my heart, it was interesting.
You were talking about 200 beatsa minute.
I don't know what my was probably wasn't anywhere near
that, but I was I was getting really like flustered, hot,
overwhelmed. My heart was going really,
really fast. I thought I was going to pass
out and I was like this needs tocome out with me.
This is, this is this does not feel like this is doing what it
(01:10:31):
that's good for me. And I wanted to read a bit more
into it. And you know, I, I wanted to
look at the, at the clinical trials after that, because I was
seeing what have I just done to my body and they were short.
They are, they're not long term trials.
I think that's also what we've got to think about, right?
These are short trials that havebeen done.
Then they don't have meaningful clinical outcomes yet.
And I think a lot of these places are from quite luxurious
(01:10:54):
places that are giving, giving these treatments out with people
that can spend that money. And when we're thinking about
it, like, I was actually going, well, what's the, what's the
risk person, the benefits and the theoretical concern is that,
yes, NAD supports cell growth, DNA repair, like those things we
do know, but some researchers are exploring whether excessive
NAD, hence why dosage is really important.
(01:11:17):
IV drips, you'll get an excessive amount in IV drip,
right? Could even fuel cancer cell
proliferation. Like, and I think about this in
synergy with nutrients. I'm not saying that this is what
all IV drips do that give nutrients.
And there's sometimes when people are very deficient in
certain things, they do need it medically.
But I'm talking about like not medically, right?
(01:11:37):
I'm talking about going into clinics and just asking for
certain drips to get these huge infusions.
For me, when I was taught in biochemistry and nutritional
science, it was all about nutrients and vitamins and
minerals that all work together in something called synergy.
Now they all kind of are cofactors of one another.
And when you swamp your body with one huge thing and none of
(01:12:01):
the others, you're automaticallygoing to be putting them out of
balance. And I don't think we think about
it with these things. And so when I'm looking at, you
know, if someone's deficient, then of course we need to be
topping them up because they're deficient.
They don't have enough in their body.
But right now, this is so early.They're like, I'll be testing
for how much is in their body. Are we testing it versus what
(01:12:23):
the dosages are? And so, you know, when I kind of
see that it could be, you know, linked to cancer cell
proliferation, my ears tweak up a bit.
And so I do think it's an important topic to like bring
up. And also when I was looking at
it, I was like, oh, you know, where does it come in food?
And it is like if we look at theways that we can support through
diet, and I put it through here,we can look at it through like
(01:12:45):
green vegetables, fish, mushrooms, edamame, all of these
can help as the precursors to NAD.
So again, like again, focusing again on the things that we know
aren't going to be detrimental, I think are really, really key.
I think it's a really important point you made about dose
because we know from the large trials looking at multivitamins
(01:13:06):
or high dose vitamins and even, you know, vitamins that you just
buy off the shelf from your local health food store when
taking an excessive dose consistently for the wrong
person who might have precancerous lesions completely
unbeknownst to to that individual.
I mean, we not to scare everyone, but you know, we have
cancer cells around our body circulating every second of
(01:13:29):
every day and our immune system is just like a targeted SWOT
team going around our body and like removing any malfunctioning
dysfunctional cells. If we start giving molecules
that could be amping up the defences, It's almost like
arming a bunch of terrorists in our body.
And and it's a bit of a stark analogy there, but like it's not
(01:13:51):
what you want to be doing. And as a one off, like probably
not going to do any harm that you've got to worry about it.
But if this is something that you do like.
All the time. Yeah, once a month or a couple
of times a week. I mean, the honest answer is I
have no idea. I mean, well, I don't.
Think anyone does? I don't think anyone could sit
there and give a full explanation that they know
exactly what's going to happen to do it every single week
because the research isn't therewell.
(01:14:11):
Exactly, yeah. And I think these packages that
are being sold, I hope they've got a lot of insurance because
if a year down the line someone suddenly has a cancer lesion
that's found on a on a screeningand you do a history and you're
like, what have you been doing for the last like couple of
years? I'm like, Oh well, I exercise, I
(01:14:32):
look after my diet and I've beendoing these NAD plus IB drips.
I'd be, I, I would be very fearful to be the individual
that is selling those because I mean they're unlicensed and I
think there is AI think someone's trying to make it a
pharmaceutical product in the inthe US.
Whether or not that is coming from a commercial perspective or
(01:14:55):
whether it's because they generally think it should be a
pharmaceutical product, I'm not too sure.
But the research that I would say it's probably A not a good a
spend of your money and B, complete unknown.
Yeah, complete unknown. So it brings me back to my a
question that I want to make sure that we finish with, which
is, you know, we've spoken aboutthe food, we've spoken about
like evidence based ways to increase protein and anti and
(01:15:19):
anti-inflammatory foods and to maybe bypass the NAD drips Try
if you want, but the jury is outon clinical evidence.
I see all the time nutritional myths come up.
Sometimes I would think, should I just go into myth busting?
And then I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that.
But I was like, when you're sitting here today, I'd love to
ask you, which I haven't asked you yet, and I was wondering
(01:15:39):
what you were going to say, but what's 1 of the biggest
nutritional myths that you're seeing online right now going
around that you're just like, weneed to cancel that out.
That's not true, and it's harmful.
Probably that we're eating a protein.
I'll probably get some comments about that, but probably that I
would say I think like we're notbeing respectful of the state of
(01:16:03):
affairs by continually repeatingthis outdated idea that we eat
enough protein, we don't need toworry about protein.
I take I take the complete opposite opinion.
And like I said to caveat this, I'm not saying we need to eat
more animal based proteins. I think we probably eat enough
(01:16:24):
of that. If you look at the consumption
rates in the US and the UK as well, on average we're consuming
enough of that. But where we should be leaning
into more of is plant based proteins.
And the benefit of that is you're not only getting the
protein, which is super important, but you're also
getting the fibre and the other,the isoflavones, the
phytonutrients that have been talking about that are so
(01:16:44):
useful. So that's probably the one thing
I would say. And it's almost like turning the
lens on ourselves somewhat because it's very easy to point
fingers at keto and carnivore and you know, seed oils and all
this kind of stuff. It's really, really easy to just
blame, blame, blame. But actually, I think a a true
reflection and a true sort of way of, of wedding out
(01:17:08):
misinformation, if you like, is actually tender lens of
ourselves because we're, we're not perfect.
We're we're, we're fallible. And you know, I've probably got
things wrong as well. I have got things wrong many,
many times in the past. And one of the things I got
wrong was protein. And I was just, you know,
slinging out the same response about protein.
(01:17:28):
And it was, it was incorrect. Yeah, well, that just means that
you're not a reductionist. Which is great.
Because science is always evolving and you've got to
evolve with it. Otherwise you just stay in a
lane. And actually science is, is the
one thing I think a good scientist is, is always being
able to say, Oh well, I didn't realise that now I've changed my
(01:17:49):
mind on. This thing, yeah, when the data
change. You have to be flexible.
And we spoke about earlier the spotlight effect on the sub
stack 5 questions, which I'd really love people to go because
that was really like who Rupee is and so much wisdom that
you've learned from back in 2003, really when you first
started Med school. And so I wanted to kind of end
(01:18:11):
with like, what is the one pieceof advice that you would give to
people listening now and listening today?
Like whether it's health or a piece of wisdom or something
that for you, I think health is all-encompassing.
It's not just the food that you put on the plate.
It's not just the amount of hours that you get in bed.
Health is also so much about mindset, emotion, resilience,
It's all kind of weaved together.
(01:18:32):
So the people kind of listening to this right now, like what's
the one piece of advice that you'd like to leave them with?
I think it's important to know your knees, so when I say knees,
I'm talking about nees. So know which aspect of your
lifestyle that you need to put extra effort in.
So that's nutrition. Is it emotional health?
Is it exercise? Is it sleep?
(01:18:54):
I think we were talking about 8020 or 9010 earlier.
Just knowing where you need to put a little bit more effort in
is a nice framing practice. And I know for me, my nutrition
is great, my exercise is OK, my emotional health is great.
Sleep is really, really poor forme at the moment.
(01:19:16):
And so that's what I'm putting more emphasis on.
But for someone else, it might be completely different.
You know, they might sleep like a log, they might have real
refreshing, energetic sleep. And then, you know, the
nutrition's all over the place. So knowing your knees, knowing
where you want to put your chips, where you want to put
some extra energy, it's just a good practice to ensure that
you're putting your energy in the in the right direction.
(01:19:37):
I love that you explained that because at one point I thought
you met your actual needs. And.
I was like what is what is the Indonese that I didn't know
about because he talked to me about bio mechanics at one
point. Duoneys are also very important.
But no, I think it's really interesting.
I think we can look at these needs a lot when it comes to
work. I think a lot of people can, you
(01:19:57):
know, do their plan of the year or the end of year review or
like their quarterly review or whatever that is.
And they can go where do we needmore emphasis and where have we
kind of fallen short this month?And so like often we don't do it
for ourselves and we put ourselves last.
And so actually, like spreading that knowledge to your own
personal life is really important.
(01:20:18):
And I've now started, you know, I used to always make, although
Oliver Bergman told me to not make lists because he was like,
they're not helpful. But I do make a list of things I
have to kind of achieve in the week.
But now I also make a personal list.
And before it was just work focused and it was just like,
these are things that I need to hit.
These are things that I need to do.
This is how I'm going to distribute my time.
(01:20:39):
And then I looked at my diary and I was thinking, wow, this is
really where you prioritize everything.
There was no personal needs in there ever.
And so now in the beginning of the week, I make my work list
and I still do everything I needto hit, but I make I personal I
personal list. And it's been a real for me.
I want to say hardship because it's not been hardship, but it's
(01:21:01):
been a real kind of mindset change in the fact that I'm
allowed to do that and not feel guilty.
I think I used to always put my personal needs at the very end
of the day when I get in at 10:00 and I think, well, what
have I not done yet? But actually now I distribute it
because I think your diary reflects really where you put
most of your time and energy. Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, and we forget to look at it.
Later, it's important to just look back at the previous week
(01:21:22):
and just see where your energy was sucked and where you
actually need to put more emphasis in.
And I think like just your kneesor knowing your knees is a good
sort of framing exercise for forme at least anyway.
Yeah, it's good because it's flexible.
That's the biggest thing, right?It's flexi.
So Rupi, you've been an amazing guest.
Thank you. You think about so much from the
(01:21:43):
personal side on the five questions to everything on the
importance of I guess lifespan and health span.
Right now, the question I asked to everyone, which you might
know if you've listened, is whatdoes live well, be well mean to
you? For me, it means living in
harmony with what my body is telling me.
(01:22:06):
And I think being intuitive about where I need to put extra
energy. For me, that's how I I live.
Well, because the answers are inUS.
And I think if we take the time to listen, as I was mentioning
on the exercise that I did with the silent retreat, the answers
(01:22:27):
come up and you can be your own expert and know exactly where
you need to put your energy. That's the self trust, isn't it?
Yeah, that comes with wisdom andlots of learning.
Ruthie, thank you. I can't.
I mean, I have obviously shown this book if you've been
watching on YouTube, listening where we've put our videos.
(01:22:48):
But this is such an amazing book.
You really do put the kind of practicality into making things
a little bit easier. But also just delicious.
Like the thing that I have always connected food to is
nutritious and delicious. And I think when we can think
about the word healthy, it's so often related to just being
(01:23:10):
boring. And my dad still, even though I
cook them all the time because you don't want me to live off.
And I'm like, no, but that also is not healthy, you know?
And so you do create such delicious, vibrant, gorgeous
shoes and it's an amazing 1 so. Thank you.
I appreciate that. From a former nutritionist,
(01:23:31):
something that I've already got my top five in there.
Nice. And and yeah, I'm going to be,
I'm going to make sure I actually like realise what my
protein is talking about this the the kind of imposter
syndrome is going, Oh my God, what was mine?
Everyone should know the number.Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you, Sarah.
Appreciate it.