How Much Protein Do You Really Need for Strength, Hormones & Longevity? | Be Well Moments - Live Well Be Well with Sarah Ann Macklin | Health, Lifestyle, Nutrition

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
If you're confused about protein, you're not the only
one. From how much you actually need
to the differences between men and women, and why age matters
more than you might think. In this master class, I've
pulled together the clearest answers from the four experts
that you can trust. Doctor Rupi explains how much
protein you really need and why most active adults are actually

(00:20):
still under consuming their protein needs.
Doctor Stacey Simmons is back and she talks to us about the
woman's Physiology, about how important it is to have protein
in the morning morning, and why under eating this can actually
wreck your hormones, and why sherecommends 1.6g per kilogram of
protein rather than the 0.8g that we are recommended.

(00:41):
She also talks about how we should build a woman's plate.
Doctor Gabrielle Lyon talks to us about permal targets of
protein, the importance of 1 amino acid called leucine and
why nailing your breakfast can set your metabolism for the day.
And then we have nutritional scientist Simon Hill, who talks
to us about quality versus quantity, protein shakes, animal

(01:01):
protein versus plant protein, the bioavailability and why
total daily protein beats protein obsession, especially
when you left. We'll cover the right daily
target for you. Smart distribution and what high
quality protein really means. How to hit your protein target
with real foods, not shakes and women.
Specific nuances that most guidelines miss.

(01:23):
By the end, you'll know exactly how much, what kind, and how to
eat it for muscle metabolism andlongevity.
So let's get in to your protein master class.
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(01:46):
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My sort of party line prior to this was we don't need to worry
about protein, we need to be worried about fibre.

(02:29):
Everyone in the UK consumes enough protein.
Where we're really failing is fibre.
We should be having at least 30 grams of fibre.
Some people would benefit from more a roundabouts.
They're trying to get most of itfrom whole, unprocessed foods as
much as possible. Grains, greens, you know,
legumes, all that good stuff. But then I realized the reason

(02:50):
why the protein requirements seem to be met by the vast
majority of the population is because the protein requirements
that we have set are set at 0.8gper kilogram of ideal body
weight per 24 hours, which as itturns out is pretty low and I
would say. Based on sedentary old men,

(03:11):
Yeah, that's that's where, that's how the traditional
guidelines were made. And so we're kind of giving that
reference to a younger healthy population, which I think where
it becomes a bit skewed. Yeah, this.
And I think the whole idea of itbeing a singular number is
flawed in so many different waysbecause it's not respectful of

(03:33):
lifestyle, life changes. Things like breastfeeding, my
wife's just gone through. We're looking at her protein
requirements. Way really hard to get those up
there actually in in line with the current evidence.
And that's when I sort of went down a bit of a rabbit hole.
And I looked at some of the protein research that has been
going on over the last 5-10 years.
And they looked at like, you know, they did muscle biopsies

(03:55):
and people who are sedentary versus exercising the leg,
people in their 60s, people are post menopause.
And it turns out we need to be consuming a minimum of 1.2g.
And actually, when you speak to researchers in the field and,
you know, you have to realize some of the caveats of this
because unfortunately, a lot of protein research is funded by

(04:16):
egg industry or the dairy industry or the beef industry.
But that being said, you know, there is a lot of evidence to
suggest that we should be consuming more.
It doesn't necessarily mean thatwe need to be consuming more
meat, more ultra rocessed protein bars, more ultra
rocessed protein powders, but there are healthier ways in

(04:37):
which to get plant based proteins that have the added
benefit of fiber and, and all the other phytonutrients that we
know are helpful for us as part of our holistic diet.
So that's when I started shifting my and then I did the
math on beans as well and I was like, OK, 8 grams of protein per
100 grams of cooked beans. I need to be consuming circa 35

(04:59):
to 40 grams every single meal. If I'm having like a good
handful of chickpeas and thinking that's my protein
source, I'm under consuming protein.
And it's not a full protein. And it's not a full protein.
Which we're going to go into in a minute.
Yeah. Before you carry on, I just want
to read a couple of stats that'sgoing to, like back up what you
said. So this is women, not men, but
and, and, and men I know are very similar on this.

(05:21):
Only 38% of UK women aged 19 to 64 hit the recommended daily
protein intake, which we know just said is 0.1.
And that's from the NDS survey in in 2024.
Newer studies suggest the optimal intake is probably
closer to 1.2, not 0.8, especially for ageing and
recovery. And that's an A review, a better

(05:43):
analysis 2025 review that you'vejust kind of mentioned.
So I think a lot of people when we're kind of looking at protein
as a whole, when I had Doctor Stacey Sims on here, who's been
on here quite a few Times Now, she actually recommends a little
bit higher, maybe even up to 1.6depending on your activity
levels and where you are in yourlife stages for women anyway.

(06:04):
So I wanted to unpack it here because most times people will
go, OK, well, I need 25 to 30 grams of protein per sitting.
And then the opposing argument to that is, well, I can't go
past a 30 grams of sitting because I won't be able to, you
know, use all of that protein. So what about protein
distribution? So let's just kind of like
unpack this part here. So we're kind of going, well,

(06:25):
the new research is showing likethe baseline, we should be
looking at 1.2. How do you encourage somebody to
look at their mill through the day and how many, how much
should they be optimizing throughout the day?
Yeah. So there's a couple of things in
there. There is this idea that you have
to consume a minimum amount of like 25 or 30 grams of protein

(06:46):
to start this process of muscle protein synthesis.
Actually, I think you can achieve this from lower doses.
So even if you only have the opportunity in a meal to have
15g or 20 grams, any amount of protein is still going to be
utilized your in your body. It's not going to be like, you
know, I'm going to consume underthe threshold, ergo I'm not

(07:07):
going to have any of these benefits.
You are still going to have someof those benefits.
Protein distribution I think waslike really popular as a topic
particularly amongst gym goers and getting that sort of good
dose of protein in that 60 minute window after exercise
because that's when you're goingto get more assimilation of
those proteins etcetera, etcetera.

(07:29):
I think newer research suggests that you've got a much wider
window of opportunity to consumeyour protein.
So I'm much more interested in getting your protein target for
you in your 24 hours. So I'm less about like you need
to hit exactly these amounts in exactly these packages or these

(07:49):
meals multiple in, in these windows of time every single
day. So I, I would say figure out the
total amount of protein you should be consuming.
My personal opinion is 1.2 as a minimum.
I think there are some benefits at 1.6 if you exercise if you're
at the age of 55 or over the ageof 50 if you're postmenopausal

(08:10):
because. And that's because your protein
needs go up. Yes, because a number of reasons
a, your ability to digest protein tends to go down as we
get older. Maybe that is because of
digestive enzymes, maybe it's because of your microbial
distribution. So that tends to decline as we

(08:32):
know as we age as well. Your immune system also has a
knock on effect. Maybe that's because of
Microsoft quite complicated area, but you're right, we need
to consume more because we we don't absorb as much protein.
The other sort of more pragmaticperspective and especially
someone who's treated lots of geriatric patients and has seen
geriatric patients at their worst in hospital, your appetite

(08:54):
just disappears and it's really hard to actually consume enough
for your needs as well. So you've got this double whammy
of issues that you're that are occurring in these older age
groups. The benefits of more protein
beyond 1.6 to 2 or 2.2, I think you have to balance against the

(09:16):
issue of over consuming energy. And I, I don't really like to
talk about calories too much, but I think it's really
important to be aware that it isa very important part of the
equation when it comes to metabolic health.
And when you stop pushing, particularly if you eat protein
from a blend of animal based products and plant based
proteins, which I'm a fan of, ifyou're skewing more towards the

(09:39):
animal based proteins, you risk over consuming that in the form
of excess calories and the fats and the fats as well.
If you're having like fattier cuts of meat or fattier cuts of
red meat, whatever, you risk over consuming calories.
And then there's less space for you to have from other sources
like nuts and teas that I think are something that we should be

(10:02):
leaning more into. So that's why I think a healthy
middle ground is like 1.2. It's higher than what we're
consuming right now. It's, it encourages you to
really think about that breakfast protein that we'll
talk about in a, in a bit as because I think there are wider
benefits beyond just the total protein intake.
And it also means that you are protecting all the other things

(10:24):
that protein is responsible for.So not just your muscles, but
your bone health, your immune health, all the sort of products
of proteins that we have in our body that no one really fully
appreciates. And hopefully when people like
read the book Healthy Eye Protein, they'll have a new lens
in which to to look at protein because it's not just about meat

(10:46):
and muscles, it's about much, much wider aspects of our
Physiology. So I think when people think
maybe they're listening to this when they're on a bike or
they're in a car or they're on arun, maybe they're watching this
on YouTube when they're in the evening.
And sometimes I'm aware that theterminology that we use would be
really confusing for people. And they're like OK, 1.2g per

(11:10):
body. Weight.
For myself, didn't go to nutritional science school.
What the hell is that? So like if someone's trying to
break it down, let's say a 35 year old, I was putting myself
in the shine. 35 year old woman,you know, and a 40 year old man
with the two case studies sat here, how much should we be
looking at throughout our day? Like, what does that actually

(11:31):
look like in terms of food? Because this is literally a
wheelhouse. This is literally what you do.
You show people how they can consume that practically but
also deliciously. I just have to add, yeah, it's
very true through the day. So how can one look at it in
terms of like, mill size and plate size?
Because I do think that sometimes when we start talking
about grams, people are like, well, what even is 25 grams?

(11:52):
It's a really good point. So I think it's worth doing a
little bit of math. OK, and I say this in the book,
actually there there. I I love doing arithmetic.
I don't like doing maths actually, like algebra and all
that kind of stuff. Like I scrape through my AS
levels. But so when we do the, the math
of 1.2 or like in your case, because you exercise regularly,

(12:14):
you could probably benefit from that higher level, especially if
you spoke to Stacey Sims, she's a big fan of like the higher
amounts, which you know, as longas everything is in balance.
I'm, I'm, I'm totally on board with.
So you want to be looking at your ideal body weight.
So let's say we're looking at someone who is overweight, maybe
they're overweight by 20 kilos or so.

(12:36):
You don't want to be using your current weight, which is 20 K
kilos plus. You want to be using your ideal
weight. So whatever the kilogram amount
that you times that 1.2 by or 1.6, you want to be using the
ideal body weight. Similarly, if you're underweight
as well, you'll be using your ideal body weight.
So that's the first part of the equation.
Then let's say we'll use myself because I can do the math a
little bit in my head. I'm around 75 kilos.

(12:58):
I'm trying to opt for 1.6g. That's my ideal body weight.
Ergo, I need to be consuming around 120 grams of protein per
day, which is 40 grams of protein split across three
different meals. For argument's sake, as that's
the typical eating pattern. What does 40 grams of protein
look like in a typical meal? All right, so let's take and I

(13:19):
have a picture a number of different pictures in the book
because I want people to be goodestimators or guesstimators of
protein when they make their breakfast.
So if I think about it out, yeah, sure look are.
You impressed what? I bought your book with me.
I'm very impressed that you got it.
Yeah, Yeah. That's the page there.
If you're on YouTube, yeah, or listening, maybe it's on
Spotify. They now have our full videos

(13:40):
up. You'll be able to see.
So OK, talk us through this. So for this morning's breakfast
for me, I had 150 grams of Greekyoghurt.
So that was a good couple of heat tablespoons.
I know from this diagram that Greek yoghurt is around 10 grams
of protein per 100 grams. Full fat, always full fat.

(14:03):
And it's strange. So any strain yoghurt is going
to be high in protein because you're getting rid of some of
the water and the sort of techniques sort of concentrate
those proteins. So 150 grams.
I'm looking at about 12 grams ofprotein there.
I enriched this with some peanutbutter.
Peanut butter is I love peanut butter.
Like crunchy, 100%. No added salt, no added parm

(14:27):
oil, none of that. No added sugar, none of that
stuff. By just adding a couple of
tablespoons of that, we're enriching that yogurt and we're
boosting that yogurt by around 7or 8 grams of protein.
So that's 20 grams in total. I'm going to add a handful of
mixed nuts to that. So that's again around 8g or so,
depending on how big your hand is.

(14:48):
And then I'm also going to have that with some berries and on
the side, I had some of my doctor's kitchen bread with a
bit of hummus as well. So it was a bit of a mix and
match situation this morning. And that got me close to, I'd
say 35 grams of protein just from those elements.
So that for me is like a healthyhigh protein breakfast.
It's got nuts and seeds. They're anti-inflammatory.

(15:08):
I've got some berries in there. I've got my protein, I've got my
base. That's like an I an ideal way of
of eating. Let's say I haven't had lunch
yet, but my lunch is going to besome some like a, do you know
farmer, farmer Jays. I love farmer Jays.
It's so good. It's just like so easy.
Because everything's created that.

(15:29):
I know I really feel like I should have I I like and when it
came out I was so jealous. I was like Farmer Jays, that
name sucks. But but in, in all honesty, like
it's really good. So you know, if anyone's in
London, you you know what I mean.
They have these fuel trays and you can see everything.
And they have like they portion it out, don't they?
Portion it out and so if I go tofarmer Jays, I know I want I

(15:51):
tend to eat plant based when I'mout.
So I will go for the tempeh option.
If you look at tempeh in the book, per 100 grams, it's around
25 grams of protein, which is you.
Might not even heard of tempeh, Yeah.
Well, tempeh is a fermented soybean product and the benefit,
and I talk about this in the book as well, the benefit of
fermenting your legumes is that it increases the availability of

(16:14):
those proteins. It makes it slightly more gut
healthy as well because you've got some of those parabiotic
benefits of the of the microbes.It tastes delicious as well and
it's easier to digest. So that, you know, 200 grams of
that, that's going to give you around 30 grams of protein as a
minimum. And then I'm going to be having
it with like grains and like some greens and stuff.

(16:34):
All those different elements like your grains and your
greens. They also have protein in as
well. Not very much.
And I put that in the. Apart from quinoa, because
quinoa is actually more of a protein food with a carbohydrate
food which is good. To Rice.
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's a pseudo grain.
So it's not a not strictly a grain.
It's a seed, which is why it's got like the a weird sort of
look to it when you when you cook it.

(16:55):
But but you're right, yeah, quinoa is like slightly higher
in protein and then even your green.
So when you have like a cup of greens, like 100 grams, that's
around anywhere between two or three grams of protein in that
alone. A lot, a lot of people realize
that. So every little bit adds up.
And this is where you can actually quite easily achieve a
healthy high protein meal with some of these different elements

(17:18):
as well. And I have this sort of like
thing, I don't think I wrote about it in the book, but you
want to start with your core protein.
So that could be chicken or fishor tempeh or tofu.
These are high quality proteins.Eggs, another really good high
quality protein, about 6g per average egg cooked.
Then you want to have a plant based partner.

(17:38):
So that could be your legumes, it could be lentils.
Because as you'll realise when you read the book, lentils and
chickpeas when they're cooked are relatively low in protein.
They're not a core protein source.
So they average between 6:00 and8:00 grams per 100 gram of
cooked bean. And even at the higher one, like
black beans and Pinto, you know,we're looking at 8 to 9 grams.

(18:00):
So it's not A, it's not a complete protein and B, it's not
enough total protein either. So you want to have a core
protein plant based partner and a Topper.
And the Topper could be nutritional yeast.
It could be hemp seeds, one of my favorite seeds.
They're about 30 grams of protein per 100 grams.
It could be mixed nuts, it couldbe peanut, it could be whatever

(18:22):
you want. But if you have this formula
every single meal time, that's how you're going to easily get
to your protein goal. And then like, you know, dinner.
I mean, last night my wife came back from holiday and I cooked
her, it was like an arabiata sauce with I think we put
aubergine in it. I put chickpeas in it.
Some chicken that I'd made. I spatched cooked some chicken

(18:44):
at the weekend. So I just shaved a bit of that
and then I added some protein through that and then added some
moringa leaves. Have you ever used moringa
leaves fresh? You never heard of that?
Oh man. So there's like a, a Turkish
store nearby to us. We live in North London and
Moringa fresh is like a really bitter version of rocket and
when you put it into a sauce with tomatoes and other acidic

(19:08):
it kind of mellows the flavour and is absolutely delicious.
But if you don't want to be thatbougie, you can just use
spinach. I mean, at one point Kell
wasn't. I know, yeah.
It's having a moment and it's costing more than anything else.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a big fan of Cabela Nero as
well. But that's, that's, that's how
like I like, I want people to visualise what it means to eat a

(19:31):
high protein meal in a healthy way, because we've been led to
believe that high protein has tobe chicken, chicken, chicken,
chicken, chicken, like chicken for breakfast, lunch, dinner and
dessert. Like it, like it doesn't have to
look like that. There's bland is boring.
You know, it's, it's this idea of high protein having to be
about muscle food and muscle growth.

(19:52):
And whilst that's very importantto preserve, particularly as it
pertains to the longevity sphere, it does not need to look
that mundane and bland. And as as a foodie, I would
never create a book that was just about, you know, just the
single protein source. As someone who has spent a long
time studying the mind body connection, I'm constantly asked

(20:13):
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(20:56):
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(21:37):
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The ideal breakfast for women because we want to bring the
cortisol down like you have the peak half an hour after waking
up is you want some good protein, protein and some carb.

(22:00):
And we also know that women don't get enough protein towards
the second-half of the day. So we try to load it towards the
beginning of the day and it has a better impact on the body with
regards to keeping amino acids going, keeping energy levels in
check, helping with insulin sensitivity.
And biggest thing really is maintaining our lean mass
because as we get older, you tend to lose it.

(22:23):
And that's one of the things that we're finding a lot of
women are like, well, I want to hold a fast because, you know,
for XYZ. But underneath it all, it's
because they're trying to have some kind of calorie
restriction. Because when you start asking
what are the molecular mechanisms of fasting that you
really want to get out of fasting, most of them can't say
anything. They don't know they've heard

(22:44):
autophagy, but what does that mean?
Do you know that it means that you're trying to up regulate
certain proteins in your skeletal muscles so that it will
go and get all the cellular debris?
Is that what you're talking about?
They kind of have a blank face. So when we're talking about, you
know, you want protein, especially in the morning to
help with our cortisol pulse, people freak out.
They're like, what do you mean? Cortisol has a pulse.

(23:05):
Help with our estrogen and our progesterone and our
testosterone. Pulse.
A pulse. Pulse.
Yeah. So we see cortisol has this bad
rap, right? We say, oh, I have elevated
cortisol, but our body responds very well across the day.
I mean, that's how we're able tobring our heart rate up.
That's how we're able to be alert.
So we have a peak that comes about 1/2 an hour if we wake up

(23:28):
because that's the body naturally waking up to become
alert, like what's happening in the day and you're in a
catabolic state. So if you don't do something to
bring that cortisol down, specifically some protein and
you know, some good carb, you'regoing to stay in this catabolic
state. So instead of like in men, if
men stay in a catabolic state, it upturns testosterone and lean

(23:50):
mass. But for women, when we're in
this kind of catabolic sympathetic drive, when you
first wake up, it just perpetuates lean mass loss
because lean mass is very metabolically active.
And the hypothalamus is saying, hey, I need some nutrition to
get through this little bit of stress of waking up and starting
the day. And I don't see any coming in.

(24:11):
I don't have any senses of carbohydrate coming in.
I don't have any senses of protein coming in, but I need
some amino acids, I need some glucose.
So it starts breaking down and signaling to breakdown lean
mass. So when we complicate it by
someone getting up first thing in the morning, going to the gym
to lift weights or to go for a run, and they're already in this
catabolic state and they're signaling, oh, I want to build

(24:33):
fitness, but the brain is saying, no, I want to break it
down because I need some of the parts in order to keep
continuing. A lot of times women like, I
don't understand why I'm not getting fitter.
It's because you're fighting this natural rhythm that your
body undercurrent is in the survival mode.
Every morning you wake up, it's like, OK, what's going on?
What's going on? So the simplest thing a woman

(24:54):
can do when she's trying to bring sympathetic drive down to
improve body composition is to have some good protein and a
little bit of carb within half an hour of waking up.
And it doesn't mean a full meal at all.
It could be a couple of tablespoons of yogurt with a
little honey. You know, I'm notorious for
protein fortified coffee becauseI'm not that hungry right when I

(25:15):
wake up. But it is something that's going
to tell the hypothalamus. Yeah, there's some nutrition
coming in. I love that you're bringing in
the hypothalamus there in the brain because you're connecting
so much around something that I think is one of our strongest
determinants of health, which isour mind over our body.
And I think that you just answered a really good question
there because for women that don't wake up hungry, some

(25:38):
people can say, well, I don't want to force myself to eat on.
I then go in against my natural instincts if I'm trying to force
myself to eat. So then they've maybe
overcomplicated and get worried than hearing this.
So what would your advice be be there?
Would it literally be, as you said, protein fortified coffee,
which I'm guessing is adding protein into your coffee and
sipping that in the morning? It's kind of starting the day.

(25:59):
Yeah, but you also want to add, like I add oat or almond milk
for a little bit of carb as well.
So it's just, it's not a lot. We've come from the whole
conversations of low fat, high carb or low carb, high fat,
right? No one's ever talked about
protein. But the more research is coming
out about protein, the more we're seeing it as so incredibly

(26:21):
important for women to get at least 1.6g per kilo of body
weight per day. And this is even if you're just
recreationally active. But then when you start seeing
people are training, training for high rocks, right?
And the high, like I've been seeing the, the, the reels and
things that people were trainingfor the first high rocks.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, you are not eating enough and you're

(26:44):
training too much. And it's a direct, like people
used to call it overtraining. People then moved on to adrenal
fatigue, But it's basically you're not giving your body
enough food, you're not eating enough to maintain health.
And I think this is where that whole like, fasting thing comes
in too, because people are now using it as an excuse to delay

(27:04):
intake and have calorie restriction under a, a socially
OK meme of how they're eating. Because, you know, back in the
80s or even the 70s, if you saidyou were fasting, people would
think that you belonged in the hate in San Francisco as part of
the hippie tribe, right? But now it's socially
acceptable. Similar to yoga, if that was you

(27:27):
exactly 40 years ago, you belonged in the hippie tribe.
I really want to bring up that 1.6 M grams per kilo because
just to put this into context for people that might not know
where that sits with our recommendations.
I'll, I'll talk about this from the UK because I'm not sure
about America, but it's 0.75g per kilo of body weight is what
we're recommended in the UK for women right now.

(27:50):
So that's like the base. That's like the level.
That's not, that's not the baseline.
That's like the recommended daily kind of.
So it's around 45 grams, I'd sayfor like the average average
woman, which I just wanted to like put into context of what
you're saying, which is 1.6. You're literally doubling it for
the minimum. So right, that's the
conversation that I think we need to be having, right, that

(28:12):
you're talking about. Whereas like it's our public
health guidelines at the moment that are I guess how we're
looking in the UK, the eat well plates, right?
It's quite small on the protein.And if I'm thinking about the,
the pyramid in America, again, the protein emphasis is big.
So how let's, let's redefine it,Stacy, let's redefine a woman's.

(28:35):
Can you not do this? Can you not build the woman's
plate? The eat well plate for a woman?
Yeah, 'cause like, I don't, yeah.
I don't think people realize that regardless of what country
you're in, the recommended dailyallowance or recommended daily
intake is based on the minimal amount to avoid malnutrition.
And the recommended intake for protein for women has been based

(28:57):
on sedentary older men and really poor nitrogen studies.
And they use sedentary. No, I mean, it's funny, right?
Because they're like, well, women don't want to go through
nitrogen studies, their delicateflour.
So we'll look at someone who hassimilar body composition.
So we'll look at these older menwho have higher body fat than
younger men. How much do they need?

(29:17):
Oh, well, that's what it's goingto be for women.
And that's how we've gotten these recommended daily intakes,
right? And no one's gone back to look
at it. But recently they're starting to
really look at protein and how important it is because we're
starting to see I I laugh at theirony of the fact that the whole
world is malnourished. We have malnourishment from lack

(29:38):
of food and we have malnourishment of too many
processed calories in shit food.So I always say overnourished
and undernourished at the same time.
Overweight but when nutrient deprived.
Exactly, exactly. That's it, right?
And I find it interesting being an expat when I'm in New Zealand
and I see the food that's available here versus I go to

(30:00):
the States and I'll go to a grocery store in the States and
there's rows and rows and rows of of stuff they say is food.
But I couldn't eat any of it because it's so ultra processed
and just marketed with a whole bunch of stuff.
And if you're not aware of that,you don't know how to choose.
So I think that if we're going to going to look at a plate like
what is a woman's ideal plate, there needs to be the caveat of

(30:23):
if it has big marking, it says high protein and it's a pop tart
move away, right? This is what ultra processed
food means. But generally, I mean, it's the
old fashioned 3040 forty rule where 30% is protein, 30% is
good fats, and 40% is complex carbs.
And then you modify based on like who you are with regards to

(30:44):
where you are in your lifespan, what kind of training you're
doing, if you're traveling or not under high stress.
Because if you're under a lot ofhigh stress, you need to boost
some carbs up just to keep your gut microbiome happy and to be
able to have immune cells that are happy.
So yeah, there's the, the littlenuances within that.
But basically that old fashioned4030 thirty is really good.

(31:08):
And then it's the distribution throughout about the day that
people need to nail where we're looking at, you know, having
food when you wake up and havingregular protein throughout the
day and really good complex carbs.
And we can go to the 8020 rule or 80% you're doing that, and
20% is life. But people put so many
restrictive rules around what they're eating that they forget

(31:31):
what it means to be nourished from a soul perspective, not
just some physicality. You mentioned the other diets
there like low fat, low carb. I'm still really a where that if
people are saying, okay, I will have lots of protein, I'm going
to have a high protein diet. There's a two question part that
I want to ask. One, can you have too much
protein in one sitting? Because that's a big kind of

(31:51):
conversation that's online. Some people argue you can, so we
argue you can't. And secondly, how important it
is to make sure that you're not having a, a super low carb diet
if you're having a very high protein diet.
And I'm thinking about people building their plates with maybe
a fillet of salmon. And, and it's hard, I say
vegetables when I talk about that.
I know they're carbohydrates, but it's a very low carbohydrate

(32:12):
diet. And how that would be formed if
you didn't have some brown rice or some brown pasta or whatever
on the side. So in that context, there's a 2
pronged approach. Can you have too much protein?
And also, what about a high protein, low carb diet for
women? Yeah.
So the study that came out what I think it was that three months
ago that was looking at the 100 gram dose of protein and how

(32:35):
long that took to digest and over 24 hours, it was still
improving muscle protein synthesis and stuff.
It was done in men. It hasn't been done in women.
So we don't know definitively. And we know that there is a
difference in gastric emptying rate for women versus men, the
way that women respond to protein, protein intake versus
men. So when I hear that, I'm like

(32:56):
it's a caveat. Yes, we know there's no upper
limit for men, but it was a verysmall in and we don't know what
the training status was. We have to look at the age.
There's so many different factors that come into digestion
that I'm still holding on to. Look, we know that you need
regular protein throughout the day at around 30 or 40 grams at
each meal, maybe 15 to 20 grams each snack.

(33:19):
And if you're exercising, you know, as a recreational athlete
on the days that you're not training, 3 meals and one snack
is probably enough. And if you on the days that you
are training, you want to bookend your training with some
food before and after. And that's the simplest way that
I can get people to visualize what they're supposed to be
doing with regards to how they space protein out.

(33:42):
When we're looking at low carb, high protein, this is a big
problem because now women are focusing more and more on that
palm size or palm size and a half.
And they're forgetting that you don't have to have that that
size of salmon or meat on the plate.
You can have something that's like a bootable, right?
And you're having some sweet potato, you're having some

(34:03):
tempeh, you're having some beans, you're having slice of
beef in there, you're having lots of dark green leafy veggies
and some fruit. So you're having lots of complex
carbs. And then you're also having your
protein because there's so many different sources of protein.
And I'm also, yeah, don't forgetthe quinoa, don't forget the
amaranth or the buckwheat. Like all of those can be
accents. I try to steer people more

(34:25):
towards the visualization of like a Japanese plate where the
major things of Western society are actually the accents and the
things that are accents for the Western society, like our
veggies and things is the main course.
So it's like, OK, let's let's bring them together.
So you know that when you are having protein, I don't mean a
big slab of fish, I mean fish isin there and it's part of the

(34:48):
accent with all the other good things that contribute to
protein. And when I start saying that and
people are like, oh, I get it now I get it.
So I can have a salad at lunch that is some fruit and some
spinach and some beans, and maybe I'm going to have a little
bit of roasted chicken. So I'm getting all these great

(35:09):
things. And I feel satiated, but I don't
feel overly full from too much, you know, dead protein hanging
out in my stomach. And then we have the people who
are like, what about the carnivorous diet?
I'm like, that completely wrecksyour gut microbiome.
Like I don't understand why people would just want to do
something that's so contraindicative to having a

(35:30):
healthy gut. Well, I love that this is going
to probably go a bit AOL on YouTube with that comment, but I
I agree we had doctor Wilbo's switch.
She comes on talking a lot aboutobviously fibre fueled and the
importance of fibre for the gut.And I think that is really
important, right? I think looking at now, I'm
already building out. I want to make sure that I'm
keeping track of this a perfect Woman's Day, which isn't always

(35:53):
perfect. I'm going to reframe that how a
day should be looking for a woman who has no health
conditions. Going to put it out there isn't
excessively an athlete, not an excessive endurance training,
but basically wakes up has some water I imagine has either 15
grams of protein for breakfast minimum if they're not hungry,

(36:16):
but if not, they have a very good 3030 thirty rule 30 grams
of well 30 grams, 30% fat, 30% carbohydrate, 30% protein.
And that's how we want to be building our plate and we want
to be having at least 1.6g of protein for 1K of body weight
and we want to be spacing that constantly throughout the day
and we want to making sure that it's whole grains.

(36:37):
We want to make sure that it's avariety of foods, a variety of
proteins. It's not just a slab of one.
We're really mixing it in for the diversity.
That's how I'm garnering Women'sHealth on a plate or as a
lifestyle right now, am I right?Perfect you are.
And then on the sub sides, we have to have room for like,
whiskey and dark chocolate and coffee and wine as the, you

(37:01):
know, the occasional accents that makes life so fun.
I'm interrupting for one moment to ask one small favour.
Please subscribe to the show. This helps it grow more than you
know. And I'm so bad at asking this
from you. I'm so bad at thinking about
this. But you know, my goal was
100,000 to get to on YouTube andI really want to bring you more

(37:22):
content and better guests and bigger episodes.
And we can only do that with your help together.
So please do hit subscribe. Thank you.
In the UK and I think it's really similar in the US.
Actually, I did look at the and I did look at the intakes in the
US, but it's recommended for around 56 grams a day for men

(37:45):
and 45 grams a day for women of protein care.
That is what the British Diet Ethic Association talk about.
When we look at protein intakes,yours is very different and you
talk about it really well in thebook and you go into how much
protein was she having and you recommend around 30 to 50 grams
of high quality protein. That's also really important
kind of term just to reference that high quality protein.

(38:07):
We're going to go into that a bit more.
So people might be shocked, Theymight also be on board already
with this information. But talk to me about your
philosophy on why it's 30 to 50 grams per meal primary.
So that's to say 3 meals a day. When we talk about protein, we
have to talk about what can we say that is evidence based and

(38:29):
that has some outcome of meaning.
If you were to think about nitrogen balance studies, they
were trying to figure out the minimum amount of protein and
the cheapest way to feed these soldiers, these 18 year old
males, to mitigate the amount ofprotein, to optimize for
carbohydrates because it's cheap.

(38:50):
And that's where they came up with the minimum amount of
dietary protein necessary to prevent deficiencies.
To me, nitrogen balance is not an outcome.
The idea that someone would say,OK, well, this is the minimum to
prevent deficiencies based on a nitrogen balance.
I don't know where anything in medicine is based on a nitrogen
balance. You're asking why am I talking

(39:11):
about that? Because it puts into perspective
this whole conversation about how are you getting 30 to 50
grams, this amount of protein seems like it's a lot, etcetera,
etcetera, etcetera. Nitrogen balance is not a health
outcome that we use or recognizeversus muscle protein synthesis,
which is a health outcome over time.

(39:31):
It is. Muscle protein synthesis is the
incorporation of amino acids into skeletal muscle that over
time is believed to help preventand protect against sarcopenia
to help manage lean body mass and skeletal muscle health.
That for me is the outcome that I'm looking for.
Therefore, 30 to 50 grams of dietary protein is what in the

(39:55):
literature has been shown, especially if someone who's
older, more mature, over the ageof 30, that will create that
stimulus and that is what I would be skeletal muscle health
on. And that is where I base the
recommendations. The way in which the
recommendations come from 30 to 50 grams at the first meal is
probably the most important, andthat's where we have all of the

(40:16):
data because a first meal effectis much easier than later on
looking at other meals when an individual is coming.
Coming out of an overnight fast,this the body is primed to have
a an action right? And that action would be the
operation and this muscle protein synthesis an individual
needs between 30 and needs a minimum of 30 grams to create

(40:40):
that physiological process. And that is based on leucine of
the essential amino acids that skeletal muscle is exquisitely
sensitive to. When you hit that, you set up
your metabolism appropriately for the whole day.
When you hit a 30 to 50 grams. Yes, and this is a bold
statement. When you hit the 30 to 50 grams,
what happens is, and especially if carbohydrates are controlled,

(41:01):
you stimulate muscle protein synthesis and these initiation
factors. You are in essence stimulating
what would be considered a biomarker for muscle health.
That process could go on for twoto five hours.
Making that stimulation, gettingthat right is the most critical
because we don't really know howimportant that second meal is.

(41:22):
We can argue that the last meal before bed is also important
because you're going into an overnight fast, but what we can
argue is that that first meal iscritical.
And when you nail protein, again, we talk about protein as
if it's one thing, but protein is 20 different amino acids, all
with unique biological roles, doesn't have one, they are not
interchangeable. The there are the 9 essentials

(41:44):
which are the ones that you musteat for.
And when it relates to skeletal muscle health, you do need that
stimulation of this leucine thatcomes from high quality
proteins. It is most abundant as all
essential amino acids. That would be say whey protein,
eggs, beef, chicken, Turkey, fish, dairy products, Greek
yogurt. If an individual is more plant

(42:06):
based, they are going to require, depending on what kind
of plant products they're utilizing, they are going to
require anywhere from 25 to 35% more of total protein to meet
that leucine threshold. Yeah, you've got a whole, but
not a whole thing. You've got like a little box in
your book saying that vegetarians consume
approximately 65 grams of plant based protein a day, and you're

(42:28):
saying, but this amount is far too low.
I know, and there's two things. Gosh, they're so is she saying
I'm like, I don't want to interrupt you, but I got so much
to ask you around this stuff, and I think there's two folds.
I really want to touch upon thisvegetarian diet quickly, because
I do know that we speak a lot around plant based diets on the
show as well. We had doctor will bolts, which
on recently talking about gut health and fibre and how that

(42:51):
relates. And so there's a lot of
different information that we kind of bring onto the show on,
you know, have more fibre, have more beans, have more plant
based foods to consume, feel gutmicrobiome.
We had to Felice Jacaron talkingabout food and mood and
obviously the connection there by the vagus nerve and how it's
really important to have more plant based foods in your diet.

(43:11):
So there's two things I really want to touch upon that.
And I really want to talk about the intermittent fasting because
you just mentioned there Leucine, which I found really
interesting. So let's just start there on if
people are listening to this andgo, OK, protein.
And she's just listed lots of animal products there.
And then then getting a little bit worried about obviously
hearing a lot about the importance of gut health and
fiber. What would you say to those

(43:33):
listeners who are listening now who also may be advocating plant
base? So my question would be, why is
it mutually exclusive? Why would it be all or nothing?
Both are critical and not interchangeable.
I absolutely agree with every statement that you've said about
dietary fiber and how important it is to get beans.
Beans are a great source of fiber.
These are not what I would consider protein sources.

(43:55):
They have immuno, but these are not complete proteins.
These are not an this is not an ideal protein source and
certainly with plant sources of proteins comes a lot of carbs
and you have to balance it. I think that we need to have
conversations that are inclusiveof both because again, both are
critical and not interchangeable.

(44:16):
The idea that you would have an optimal protein diet and somehow
that would mean that you wouldn't have fiber would not be
the way that I would think aboutit.
And I also think that we have toconsider we need both. 40% of
women over the age of 65 are notmeeting the baseline
recommendations of protein. And they're the ones who
actually really need it. Right.

(44:36):
And arguably, they're probably not getting enough fiber either.
But when it comes to hierarchy, what is the hierarchy of health
and Wellness? And the hierarchy of health and
Wellness for me would be muscle health first.
If you eat for muscle health, everything else falls into
place. And what does that include?
That includes high quality proteins.
Could you be vegetarian and get enough protein?

(44:59):
Totally the idea. Again, protein is only one
macronutrient. There are other things that ride
along with dietary protein like creatine and carnitine and and
serine and zinc and a whole hostof bioavailable vitamins and
minerals. That being said, when you eat
for muscle health you also do really well or an individual if

(45:23):
they are exercising will also dowell with carbohydrates which
would be foods that help with a gut microbiome.
So could you layout a really good breakfast?
Because obviously this is what you've mentioned is like one of
the key things for people when they're thinking about how
they're selling the day is having a really good rich
protein breakfast. Now, one of our top protein
foods in the UK is cereals. And that terrified me when I

(45:46):
read that statement. And so this is what's really
interesting. OK, so you're talking about
starting breakfast with good protein sources, but the
majority of the UK probably start their breakfast with some
sugary cereal and toast. So let's try and define what is
a healthy protein breakfast to start off with.
A great healthy protein breakfast is one that you're

(46:07):
going to do. So just so you know, breakfast
is the most important meal and there's a few things that you
have to have for breakfast. You have to have protein and you
have to have pressure. Grates new pressure.
Yeah, you need protein and pressure.
That is the breakfast of champion dietary protein
sources. Whey protein would be great.
Have a scoop of whey protein. A scoop and a half of whey
protein. Have a little Greek yogurt in

(46:27):
there. Have some berries.
Have a half a cup of berries. Have a cup of berries.
Depending on what your carbohydrate threshold is, I
think that's a great breakfast. If you want a little bit of fat,
go ahead, throw 5 grams of fat in there.
Don't overcomplicate it. You could hit a one to one ratio
of carbohydrates to protein. So if it were me and I was going

(46:49):
to make breakfast, I'll tell youwhat I had for breakfast this
morning. I had two Greek yogurt packs,
low in sugar, had some berries in it and I'm good.
Super easy and it's quick. 30 grams of protein, had probably
20 grams of carbs, maybe 30 grams of carbs, a little bit of
fat that came in the yogurt and I'm good to go.

(47:11):
I thought we'd start off on something that's really topical.
We talk about quite a lot recently on the show.
It's had a lot of interest and it's around protein and plant
based protein versus meat based protein and especially when it
comes to which we haven't delvedinto too much strength and
performance. So there's kind of that

(47:31):
overarching old star opinion that you've got to eat a ton of
meat to gain good quality muscleand skeletal health.
Now, can you talk to me a littlebit about plant based protein in
regards to strength and performance and how should we be
looking at it? Do we need more than if we're
not having meat? And kind of what's the context

(47:52):
of this currently? Yeah, This is a topic that I've
kind of dug into at great depthswith a number of different
researchers from, you know, Christopher Gardner and Volta
Longo and Don Lehman. These will be names that people
might be familiar with. There's a there's a few things
to OK, right. So you've had you've had Chris

(48:15):
on he's, he's a delight to speakto a really fun guy.
So I think there's a few things that we need to kind of break
down here to make this really simple for for the listeners.
One of the things that's often said is that plant proteins are
are incomplete and we need everyone to understand what the

(48:36):
definition of incomplete is because that's often conflated
with plants missing an essentialamino acid, as in they're just
not there. And just to kind of define
essential amino acid that is a building block of protein that
your body cannot make. Some amino acids that our body

(48:58):
uses to make protein, we can make, they're non essential.
And then the essential ones we have to get through our diet.
So there's this idea out there that certain plants like types
of legumes like black beans or whole grains, that the protein
in those is incomplete. And people conflate that with,
OK, it's missing an essential amino acid.

(49:18):
It's actually one of the nine essential amino acids or more is
not there. That's actually inaccurate.
It's a myth. All plants contain all nine
essential amino acids. OK, I'll repeat that.
All plants, every single plant contains all nine essential

(49:39):
amino acids. That's where they come from,
right? Animals also don't produce these
themselves. They have to get it from
somewhere. So these are these amino acids
originate in plant form and all plants have all nine.
What is true is that in certain plants, if you look at the
amount of these amino acids, if you were to eat just that food.

(50:04):
So let's take let's take grains as an example here.
If you were to just eat grains for all of your calories.
So let's say someone's eating 2000 calories a day.
Gosh, you'd be bored. And, and I say, OK, you're only
going to eat brown rice. Now you're going to fall into a

(50:26):
little bit of trouble here because you'll fall short of
your daily requirement for one of those essential amino acids,
which is lysine. OK.
So it's not that lysine is not in in grains, It's just that if
you were to eat all of your calories from grains, you
wouldn't get enough lysine. But that that is important.

(50:47):
So that's the definition of an incomplete protein.
If you were to essentially get all of your calories from that
food, would you get all nine essential amino acids?
That's important in the context of a diet where there is not a
great deal of diversity, little to no diversity.
So perhaps in developing countries, Whereas when you are

(51:07):
eating with just modest diversity, what ends up
happening is some of the foods that you're eating, yeah, they
might be a little low in lysine,but other foods are high in
lysine. And anyone can run this exercise
if you were. I mean, if we take this to the
full extreme and think of a dietthat has no animal protein, it's
completely plant exclusive, put it go use the app Chronometer

(51:30):
and just put a day of eating into that.
And it breaks down the 9 essential amino acids.
And you'll see if you're eating sufficient calories and you're
eating, you know, sufficient total protein for the day, which
we can come to and I want to come to then all you'll get all
of your nine essential amino acids in spades.

(51:53):
You know, most of them will be like 2-3 hundred percent of what
you actually require on on a daily basis.
So the the main most important message here is that plants are
not missing these essential amino acids.
If you eat enough total energy and total protein, then you will
get enough of the 9 essential amino acids that are important

(52:14):
for building muscle, building strength, hormone production,
collagen production, all the things that we need amino acids
for. And someone might say, OK, but
are they as bioavailable? Are they as digestible?
Really good question, Great question.

(52:35):
And I understand why people think this because that's that's
another thing that comes up. It's well, yeah, plants may have
protein, but can your body actually absorb and utilize that
as well as animal protein that doesn't have anti nutrients and
fiber and things that could reduce amino acid
bioavailability? So there's there's a couple of

(52:58):
things to to really consider here.
There is evidence that animal protein is more bioavailable
than plant protein. What is that evidence?
Well, the bulk majority of that evidence is from rats and pig
studies. And the, the pig studies are
considered the most reliable because the digestive tract of a

(53:20):
pig is very similar to a human. The main problem with these
studies is in almost all of these studies.
And Christopher Gardner brought this to my attention, he's
written a paper on this, is thatin almost all of those, those
studies, they fed the the animals raw plant proteins.

(53:41):
And so when you feed raw grains and raw legumes, for example,
it's no wonder that the bioavailability is lower.
We know that soaking and cookingthese foods sort of liberates
nutrients and makes them more bioavailable.
And in the very, very small number of studies that have
looked at actual bioavailabilitydifferences between animal and

(54:03):
plant protein when prepared as you and I and the listeners
would eat these foods, it says in this paper, and I'll share it
with you, the differences are probably only a few percent.
And so we've overestimated likely we've overestimated.
Now granted there isn't a lot ofdata here, so it's not like
every single plant protein has been tested against every single

(54:26):
animal protein. But what I would say is that it
seems we've probably overestimated differences in
bioavailability and and then I would say, well, why don't we go
to studies looking at randomizedcontrolled trials where we split
people into two groups. And again, take this to the
extreme, have one group who onlygets their protein from plants

(54:48):
and the other group that gets their protein from a mix of
animal proteins and plants, as you would see in a kind of
typical omnivorous diet. And, and let's let's match total
protein. Let's put total protein.
Remember before I said as long as you're getting enough total
protein, these it probably doesn't make a difference.
Let's match total protein. Let's get that to 1.6g per

(55:11):
kilogram, which is probably thatlower threshold, lower threshold
of what we would say is an idealtarget if you're trying to
really optimize for hypertrophy,which is muscle growth and
strength. OK, Whether you're a
recreational or professional athlete, there are contexts
where you might want more than that.
We can go into it, but we now have several of these studies,

(55:34):
at least in healthy adults. I believe one of the papers was
men and women and the other paper I'm thinking of here was
just men where they get these adults.
One group's eating only plant protein, the other group is
getting a mix of animal and plant protein.
Put it at 1.6g per kilogram. Put them both through resistance

(55:55):
training protocols and over the course of eight to 12 weeks
measure any differences in muscle growth, strength,
etcetera, and you do not see anysignificant differences.
So what what I would kind of throw back to someone that
wanted to kind of push back on plants being incomplete or

(56:17):
complete or bioavailability is to say, well, what do you really
care about? Do you really care about the the
percentage of a particular aminoacid in a food?
Or do you care about things likehypertrophy and strength, actual
health outcomes? Because I know what I'm most
interested in it's, it's the outcomes like those like how are

(56:38):
we going to reduce our risk of sarcopenia?
Wait. And then and then to kind of
broaden that, which is where my message differs to some people
like Peter or Elaine Norton, is that I personally, and this is
the philosophy I adopt in my, myown life is I want to stay
vital, strong. I want to be able to navigate my

(57:01):
environment, be at low risk of fractures as I'm aging, but I
also want to be at low risk of cardio metabolic disease.
And we have quite significant data that consistently shows
swapping calories from animal protein for plant protein is a
good way to reduce the risk of certain cardio metabolic
diseases. So my kind of overall thesis is

(57:23):
that I think, you know, leaning more towards plant protein, it
doesn't have to be exclusive, but the average diet right now
is 85% of protein is coming fromanimal sources.
I think we can. We can, I think we can tilt that
and even if you just get it 5050, that's some good
substitutions that are occurringand you will be able to still

(57:45):
perform get those strength hypertrophy results you're
looking for, but at the same time optimize your cardio
metabolic risk factors. And, you know, I think the way I
look at it is you're kind of getting the book the best of
both worlds there. When you're thinking about
protein is actually plant based protein, how should we be
mapping it in terms of our performance and exercise,

(58:07):
especially strength and resistance training?
Because I think that's a really confusing landscape.
Some people say the most optimaltime for protein is the first
protein intake of the day. Other people completely disagree
with that concept. And so like the space of this,
especially this one topical concept is huge and it is so
confusing. So what's your view on how

(58:29):
should we be looking at our protein throughout the day?
And my view on this has changed a little bit, and there's been
some recent research looking at protein distribution and muscle
protein synthesis. You know, I probably thought
previously it was more importantto have these kind of equal
doses of 25 to 35 grams of protein four or five times a

(58:51):
day. Yeah.
To be honest, about five years ago, that's what everyone was
saying. And now I would say I'm I still
think distribution matters, but total protein intake is what
really matters. You just have to give your body
the total sort of pool of amino acids over a 24 hour period.

(59:16):
And that's by far and away the most critical factor.
So if your target is 100 grams per day of protein, just make
sure you're getting that. Like, let's keep it simple.
There could be some extra benefits that are up for grabs
maybe if you were to kind of space that out and have 4 meals
of 25g versus 1 meal of 100 grams.

(59:37):
But I'm starting to think that might not be so important.
OK, so you're saying as long as you can just get it in, it
doesn't actually matter too muchabout the?
Distortion. There was this idea that
anything over 2530 grams of protein is wasted.
And I think we're starting to learn that that's that's not
accurate. It's not that if you consume

(01:00:00):
over 30 grams in a single meal that the body excretes the
excess amino acids or that they don't stick around and help with
building of muscle. Later on in that 24 hour period,
I I think they do. And so yeah, I would say don't
get caught up too much in the distribution of protein.

(01:00:21):
And they, you know, there are some other reasons for having
protein in every meal other thanjust muscle hypertrophy.
So I don't want to kind of get too caught in the weeds here.
Distribution, I think matters from the perspective of satiety
and also being practical. Like is someone going to get 100
grams of protein in one meal? So I was.

(01:00:43):
Trying to vision that, when you said it to me, I was like, how
much? How much would they have to eat
in one sitting to get that? Quite a lot.
Yeah, I mean, I'm probably confused the listeners here a
little bit. I guess what I'm, what I'm
saying in terms of your, if you go to the gym, you do resistance
training and you want to recoverand get the, you know, actually
provide the body with the nutrition it needs to take that

(01:01:04):
stimulus and lay down new muscletissue and, and grow stronger.
Just getting enough protein in 24 hour period is really, really
what matters most. Because there was also that
other argument about having too much protein can also be not
beneficial for you. And so there's kind of two very
distinct camps here. So what do you think the answer

(01:01:24):
is on that? Can we have too much protein in
one sitting? Is it going to harm us?
I've had some debates on this onmy show.
I've had Volta Longo on who is alittle bit more of the low
protein camp. I've had Don Lehman on who is
more of a high protein camp. Then I've had Chris Gardner and
Stuart Phillips who would say kind of are sitting more towards
the middle of that. I think the data on like protein

(01:01:49):
restriction being good for longevity is pretty weak and
it's, it's pretty flimsy when you actually dig deep into it.
A lot of it's animal or rodent data.
These animals are living in caged environments.
They're, they don't have to be strong and agile and navigating
the environment like we do out in the wild.

(01:02:10):
They don't need a really robust immune system.
Proteins very important for immunity because they're in a
sterile condition. They're not sort of exposed to
other biology and the sort of very, very kind of, I'd say weak
human data that we have, observational data that low

(01:02:32):
protein is, is associated with reduced mortality and cancer
incidence. You have to remember that they,
this study is looking at the average American who's not doing
any really no resistance training.
They're obese. There's, you know, inflammatory

(01:02:54):
sort of milieu. And yeah, maybe in that
environment, if someone's not exercising and is significantly
overweight and is inflamed, thenjust throwing a whole lot of
extra protein into that environment is probably not
great. But we have the studies that
have looked at what happens to certain, you know, growth

(01:03:17):
hormones like IGF one, which is,you know, people often say
protein spikes IGF one, it increases cancer.
What I would say to people is proteins effect on IGF one and
sort of chronic levels of IGF one seems to be determined by
whether or not you're actually exercising.
And there's studies that have looked at that.
And so you feed people protein that are not exercising and look

(01:03:39):
at IGF 124 hours later, feed people protein plus get them to
resistance train, look at IGF 124 hours later and when they
have the resistance training stimulus there, IGF 1 does not
go up. So I would say I don't think
people need to fear protein. I think certainly if you are

(01:04:00):
going to optimize for protein, first you want to optimize your
exercise, which means resistancetraining and doing a resistance
training properly, effectively, probably a better word.
There are some principles for people to think about there such
that that protein is actually being put to to good use.
And should people have protein before working out?

(01:04:21):
I think that's another big question that we got asked after
our last kind of protein conversation on the show.
I don't think it matters that much if they've eaten enough
protein the day before. OK.
I don't think we have a lot of data to suggest that, you know,
you need to to, to kind of skulla protein shake before you go

(01:04:44):
into the gym. But what about a protein shake
after? Because there's a lot of
conversation about protein shakes being good, protein
shakes being bad. Do we need protein shakes?
Should we not be getting it fromour food?
Like what's your for the kind ofoptimal way?
And that's kind of how I'm thinking about it.
If people should they be choosing food over a protein
shake, a protein H is bad. What's your view on this?

(01:05:06):
Is it? I don't think protein shakes are
bad, I don't think they're bad. I think they have their place.
You know, someone needs to look at, let's say for example,
someone wants to target 1.6g perkilogram of protein and I don't
know, let's say that their totalprotein intake is 90 grams per
day. That person might be completely

(01:05:30):
fine getting that protein from Whole Foods, but then let's say
someone else who is a bigger person has to get 100 and 5000
and 6000 and 70 grams of proteinper day.
It's a different context. You're asking that person to eat
a lot of fiber or, you know, just a lot of total food volume.
And protein powders can be convenient and they can be a

(01:05:53):
good way to get that extra protein in when you're already
feeling quite full from other foods.
I think there's this, this idea that protein powders are
processed, therefore they must be bad.
And I think that falls into a kind of appeal to nature fallacy
that just because something isn't found in nature, it isn't
it must be bad. And, and, and I'm not there are

(01:06:16):
a lot of foods that are processed that are not healthy,
but we have to be careful just what putting everything into the
same bucket because they don't have the same characteristics.
And I, and so I, I see very little harm from, from protein
powders. The, the only time where I think
they could be problematic is if you're getting, you know, almost

(01:06:39):
all of your protein from them, then what that's displacing from
the diet is a lot of protein rich foods that come with a lot
of vitamins and minerals and fiber, etcetera.
So, so if you're displacing a lot of these foods by just
trying to get all your protein from protein powder, I wouldn't
suggest that. I'd suggest it as kind of just
like a top up, just getting you to that optimal protein target,

(01:07:02):
making it a little bit easier, but not sort of over relying on
it. Like I I would have like
probably 30 to 40 grams of protein from protein powder a
day myself and my target where Iwould land is 150 a 160 grams.
OK. And I mean, there is that, there
is that thing of just looking atthe protein powder you're buying
because there's just so much on the market and seeing actually

(01:07:24):
what is the simplest form that you can buy that might not be
full of the, the story that I, Iheard recently was someone was
really struggling to sleep and because they were working out in
the evening and their protein powder had so much caffeine in,
they just had no idea. And so for them, that was like I
just said, have the protein powder, but just choose one
without caffeine. And it's just that kind of
simplistic messaging that sometimes we just don't actually

(01:07:46):
look at the back and think, probably not appropriate for my
evening workout, but it's, it's interesting like how we can
become quite unaware of what arein the products that we're
buying. I think that's kind of a really
big talking point. Yeah, I've done that myself.
Actually. I remember being in Bali and I I

(01:08:07):
bought this tub of protein over there and it's like it was like
a pre workout protein. I'd never seen that before.
I'm not sure why they actually did that.
It's crazy and I didn't read it clearly and had that right
before bed and literally didn't,didn't get any sleep at all.
So that's, that was terribly frustrating.

(01:08:27):
But you know, now I use it. The, the thing that I look for
on protein now is I, I want roughly 30 grams in a protein
shake that I'm going to have 30 grams of protein.
And I like when brands list the amino acid profile.
There is one thing on there thatI will look for.
I like to see at least 2, 1000 milligrams or two grams of

(01:08:50):
leucine that that is an important amino acid for
supporting muscle protein synthesis.
So like now I'm using a brand inthe US, I'm not sure it's in the
UK called Momentous and that kind of has like 2 1/2 or 3
grams of, of leucine for, for 30grams of protein.
The other thing, Sarah, just quickly that I realized I

(01:09:11):
didn't, I, I kind of skipped over.
I just want to make something clear.
The average protein intake in Western countries kind of
without people really thinking about it is about 1.1 to 1.2g
per kilo. And you know, that's a little
bit debatable depending on whichstudy you look at and also the

(01:09:36):
the type of diet someone's following.
So as someone gets more plant based, it is definitely true
their total protein intake tendsto go down a bit.
In some studies it's more like 1g per kilogram.
So, you know, potentially if someone's eating that way, they
need to focus a little more on the protein rich plant foods to
to consume the same amount as the average person that's eating

(01:09:57):
an omnivorous diet for sure. But this is really interesting
research that's looked at strength and we know strength is
a really great predictor of mortality.
And it's looked at how does strength change with varying
levels of protein intake in two different contexts.

(01:10:19):
So one is if you just increase protein and you're not doing
resistance training, what happens to strength?
And so there's this beautiful graph I'll share share this with
you. Well, you basically see nothing,
right? So you can, you can, you can
increase protein, but if the stimulus is not there, remember
like structure, reflex function,our body adapts to stress and

(01:10:44):
resistance training is a form ofstress.
And if you don't have that primary anabolic sort of signal
there, it doesn't matter how much protein you consume, you're
not going to get stronger. You're going to develop more
lean tissue. And then what's really
interesting is in the other graph, you'll see that, OK, now
we look at people that are resistance training, what

(01:11:06):
happens to strength as you increase protein?
And what's really, really interesting here is that most of
the strength gain is actually achieved at 1.2g per kilogram,
which is the average intake of protein across society.
There is a little bit maybe likean extra 1015% getting from 1.2
to 1.6g per kilogram. OK, so so you could kind of

(01:11:30):
squeeze out the last, you know, drips of water in that towel by
doing that. But what this says to me is why
do we see so much sarcopenia andloss of strength as people are
aging when the average intake isalready at 1.2g per kilogram?

(01:11:50):
And we know that by that point, as long as resistance training
is there, that's where most of the strength is achieved,
strength gained. And the reason is 70 to 80% of
people are not lifting. There's there's a lack of
stimulus. So I just want to point out to
people that we often over focus on protein and get caught up on
that. But literally if if most people

(01:12:10):
didn't change their diet that much and got resistance training
in place and did it effectively,we would see significantly less
psychopenia.

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