May 6, 2024 • 22 mins
Wayne Turmel sits down with John Forsythe of Deloitte Consulting's Human Capital Group. They dive into Deloitte's Human Capital Trend Report 2024, exploring the evolving landscape of hybrid work and what it means for senior leaders. John shares his insights on the push and pull of hybrid arrangements, the importance of flexibility, and how AI is shaping the future of work. Whether you're a team leader or an executive, this episode is packed with practical advice on how to navigate the challenges and opportunities of remote and hybrid work.
Key Takeaways
1. Build Trust in Remote Work: Focus on measurable outcomes to build trust in remote productivity.
2. Promote Micro-Cultures: Encourage local team leaders to set their own work cadences.
3. Enhance Worker Agency: Involve team members in decision-making to foster ownership.
4. Leverage AI for Efficiency: Automate mundane tasks, focusing human efforts on creativity and problem-solving.
5. Align Hybrid Work with Talent Lifecycle: Be intentional about in-person interactions for key lifecycle moments.
6. Pilot Before Policy: Test and iterate hybrid strategies before rolling out policies.
7. Invest in Manager Development: Provide training and resources for managers to lead in hybrid environments.
8. Explore Emerging Technologies: Experiment with AR, VR, and new collaborative technologies.
9. Prioritize Intentional Leadership: Create a positive culture focused on helping employees thrive.
Timestamps
00:00 Introduction
01:14 Hybrid Work Concerns
02:26 Together When It Matters
05:09 Flexibility as a Competitive Advantage
07:16 Autonomy and Accountability
09:09 Worker Agency
11:14 AI and Hybrid Work
14:00 Talent Lifecycle
16:16 Think Like a Researcher
18:10 Technology and Collaboration
19:47 Conclusion
Featured Guest
Name: John Forsythe
Bio: John is a managing director in Deloitte Consulting's Federal Organizational Transformation service line. With over 25 years of business management experience, including 17 years in federal government consulting, John specializes in driving broad organizational change. His expertise spans organizational consolidation, culture change, strategic change, communications, leadership alignment, and executive coaching. John has also advised clients across the federal sector, focusing on the defense sector, including USTRANSCOM, the Navy, and the Wounded Warrior Recovery Care Program.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-forsythe-6587773/
https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/focus/human-capital-trends.html
Related Episodes
Additional Resources
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hello, everybody.
Welcome to another edition of the LongDistance
Work Light podcast,where we try to help you thrive.
Survive, generally keep the weasels at bay
in this crazy world of remote
and hybrid work.
you know, normally this show is aimed
(00:28):
at those of us who are on the teamleader level, those of us in the trenches.
But we are aiming this conversationthis week
a little bit higher on the food chainfor senior leaders.
And for that, we need somebody with a moreimpressive name tag than I have.
So I am going to introduce youto John Forsyth,
(00:48):
who is with the Human Capital Groupat Deloitte Consulting.
He is the one of the authors,at least of the Human Capital
Trend Report 2024,which is full of fascinating stuff.
And that's what we're going to talk about.
John, how are you?
I'm doing well, Wayne, thank you so muchfor having me on the show.
(01:09):
Well, as always, thank you for being had.
Okay.
So the report came
out and it's full of fascinating stuffand we could talk for ages about it.
I really want to focus on
the growth of hybrid work
and what senior leadersare thinking about that
(01:32):
because I kind of get the sensethat, well,
your own report says 50% of execs
say that, you know,we want to have a culture.
We know it's got to be flexible.
We know thatthere are going to be subcultures.
And yet that makes them crazy.
in a nutshell,what are senior leaders concerned about
(01:56):
when it comes to, in particular,hybrid work?
It's, it's a great question.
And and I've, I've been on the recordsaying that we're going to go through this
hybrid dance, until the end of the decade.
I think what
we're going to be seeing is, is pushand pull for workforce and management,
and it's going to stabilizeover the next couple of years
(02:16):
that the bottom line isyou need to be able to let the work
and the needs of the workforce drivewhere the work happens.
And that's a it's a new algorithm.
Because, you know, when we talkabout hybrid here at Deloitte,
the phrase the news is,you know, before the pandemic
always togetherduring the pandemic never together.
(02:39):
And then since the pandemic and goingforward it's together when it matters.
Right?
Having those moments where co-location isthe best way to get the work done,
that's going to that's going to varydepending on the organization,
the work you're doing,the team that you have around you.
But using that mindset is much more likelyto get the right people
(03:00):
wanting to be co-locatedat the right time.
Now, your question was,how do executives and men look at that?
They look at that from a perspective of
we need to get business done.
I don't know if people are beingproductive because I grew up as a manager.
Seeing people around me,and they seem productive,
(03:20):
and that's a traditional wayof measuring productivity.
But in this new world,getting executives to trust
that work is being doneeven when it's not at the same place.
That's been a challenge.
And I can't tell you.
I can't tell you how thrilled I am to hearyou say that.
This is going to be a messy,ongoing process, because
(03:42):
one of the thingsthat we have been noticing for a long time
is that senior leaders in particular,and I don't mean
to throw them under the bus, it'sjust on the team level.
People seem to be reaching accommodationvery quickly about what works.
It's as the senior execskind of take a macro approach
(04:04):
to creating culture,to doing all these things.
That's the tension arises.
And one of the things that I've noticedand hopefully you can address
this is right now, what we're gettingis not so much true hybrid work
as it is uncomfortable negotiation
to how much can we make themcome in the office before they quit?
(04:27):
And how much can I notcome in the office before they fire me?
Which doesn't seemlike an effective business strategy.
Right? Yeah, and you're right.
There's incredibletension between the two of them.
So here's the way that I look at it.
I'll say any organization that can providea certain amount of workplace
flexibility has a competitive advantagewhen it comes to the war for talent.
(04:51):
It's just a question.
It's something that people are expectingright now
and and every day that you requiresomeone to come into the office
more than they feelis, is beneficial to them,
and they're in them in the best position,
getting the work done every houryou have them do more than that.
Work feels like it's meaningless to comeinto the office, and it's a cost to me.
(05:12):
That's one level less of engagementthat that that employee has.
And so you've got,you know, when we look at,
the main
findings of our Human CapitalTrends report, it's in those organizations
where people thrive,the organization is more likely to thrive.
Those organizations that are focused onbottom line result at all costs
(05:35):
are less likely to achieve those bottomline results than those organizations
that focus on achieving the human outcomeand the business outcome, and manage
both of them together.
So that equation that I talked about of,yeah, you might have the more
in the in the office morebut their engagement has reduced.
That's probably
more likely to affect your bottom linethan just having them there because.
(05:56):
Right.
So that two day a week or three day weekpolicy, blanket policy
across the entire organization,that doesn't take into consideration
those micro cultures that,you know, is another chapter in our trends
that how the work happens in your financefunction versus your HR function versus
your IT function, how happens in Tokyoversus New York or DC?
(06:16):
That's going to differ
based on the work that's happening thereand the needs of that workforce.
And so giving autonomy to local teamleads and managers to figure out
what kind of cadence of in-officeversus remote work that we do here,
that kind of autonomy has got to happen,because that's
where those differential differencesin working workforces happen.
(06:37):
And so micro cultures allows youto be able to manage this sort of mosaic
of different ways of getting work donein different parts of the organization.
Yeah, it's funny,we talked about macro cultures
and micro cultures in Kevin in my book,The Long Distance Team.
And people strugglewith this a little bit,
because we want a culture, right?
(06:58):
We want an IBM culture.
We want a Joe's Farmstand culture,whatever it is.
And yet there needs to bethat flexibility.
How does a senior leader
decide on the amount of flexibility?
I mean, my guess is,like most things, it's
(07:19):
going to be more than they wantand less than they think. you.
But how do they strike that?
But how do organizations strikethat balance?
Yeah, it's a it's a great question.
And I hate giving a typicalconsultant answer, but it depends.
It depends on the level of trust,the scale of the organization.
It comes down to this.
The executive leader'srole is to create those values.
(07:42):
how it works, what happened here,what distinguishes us in our culture.
But set wide perimeters of whatthat looks like, right.
You know, the focus on customer integrity,of course,
those things are going to happen.
You know, when we look at acrossthe board, IT organizations,
you know, you look at corporate values,
the word integrity shows up in 75%of every corporate value statement.
(08:03):
Yet every organizationseems to be different.
So yeah, having those wide perimetersbut then providing autonomy
to local management to drive the culturethat's necessary for their work.
And then, let's be frank, executiveleaders need to hold people accountable
for results.
What we're sayingnow is it's not only business results,
but hold them accountablefor human results.
(08:24):
Do I love how you kicked off thisthis conversation when you said
helping people thrive,that idea of helping people thrive,
that is such a fundamental elementof good business, good leadership.
And now in our report,we're talking about it.
There's proofnow that organizations that help people
thrive are more likelyto thrive themselves at the bottom line.
(08:45):
So it's in the sensethe values hold people accountable.
In the report,you talk a lot about, worker agency.
Yes. And
in first of all, maybe you can give a non
consultant the descriptionof exactly what that means.
But also you knowhow do you navigate increasing
(09:06):
worker agencywithout people's heads exploding.
That's a great question right.
Because I, I've seen peoplefiguratively people's heads explode
when it comes to the ideaof giving people choice in agency.
Yeah.
For the record, actualbursting of craniums
is extremely rare,but it feels like it's going to happen.
(09:27):
It does.
You can see the eyes open way when whenit looks like the it's about to explode.
It comes down to this and this isa conversation I had with all my clients.
In today's world,you have to lead and manage
differently than you were led and managed.
As we were growing up,you and I see movies of a certain age
(09:48):
when when we were growing up,we didn't have that choice.
We didn't have the agency.
There's a joke about sort of newgenerations, millennials and Gen Z.
They want to come out of schooland be a CEO right away.
It's not the case.
They want their voice heard.
They want their ideas considered, right.
They want to feel commitmentand ownership.
And oh, the idea of co-creation
(10:10):
with your workforceand giving them agency and choice.
It means seeking their input in terms
of making decisionsthat have an impact on them
and considering their voicenot as you have to.
They're that they're your boss,but that you're considering their input.
Because guess what?
In today's AI world,you're going to get your best ideas
(10:31):
from 23 year olds that understandartificial intelligence better,
to have their voice being heard as you'remaking important corporate decisions.
And guess what?
You're going to get new innovationand you're get an entire generation
of your workforce that has commitmentand ownership of your organization.
They feel like they're an owner andwhat's not and what's not good about that.
So this idea of co-creationmeans a different management style.
(10:54):
Seeking input, using that as aas a driver of your decision
making and making surethat you're driving outcomes that help
drive your business and help create
that workplacethat is helping them thrive.
Okay, so you used the magic word.
It's actually the Magic acronym,which is know.
I think we've.
(11:15):
We managed to actually get halfwaythrough this conversation
without using those two letters,but they're hard to avoid.
Yeah, I know in your trends reportand everybody's trends
report talks about oh,AI is going to grow.
It's going to be important.
It's going to be on a practical level.
What is I going to do that
(11:37):
will enable hybrid work to succeed.
what my my first answer is
I don't know all the things that I wasgoing to do, but, you know, we've begun.
I've, I've begun myself to even my age began playing with artificial intelligence.
Well, I understand it's changing so fast.
I'm not trying to put you on the spot,but as of 1119
(12:00):
Pacific on March 28th, where do we stand?
Yeah, I think it'sit is going to change the world.
I think it is going to enable, hybrid.
you're going to get to that optimizationof hybrid use
quicker because you're going to understandthe you know, what,
what rolesdo you want humans to actually perform?
(12:21):
What roles can technology,artificial intelligence, do for you?
Automation.
And the way I describeit is any kind of dirty, dangerous,
dull and disconnected workto be done by technology, right?
If you're doing if you're having to doany kind of data entry or transaction
processing or compiling of reports,technology can can do that for you.
(12:42):
What's left of the human,the truly human work.
It takes curiosity and empathyand collaboration and
and risk taking and problem solving
that we can't AI our way out of right now.
So as a manager understandingwhat's truly human
and how can I get my workforce
to spend as much of my timedoing the truly human work
(13:03):
that's going to feed your bottom line,because you're going to get them
at human performance, you're goingto get them really productive,
and you're going to create an employee
brand that everyone'sgoing to want to work for you.
The top talent is goingto want to work for you,
because you're giving them a chanceto really have impact from day one.
So it's that kind of equation that peoplehave to pay attention to now is
(13:24):
how do we what do we give to technology,and what do we truly
allow the humans to doso they can play that human role?
Well.
And the human part in this obviouslyis a big part of your remote.
And when you're remote, your reportand one of the things that you talk about
is this idea of making hybrid work
(13:45):
fit the life cycle, the talent life cycle.
And I'm kind of fascinated by thisand mildly confused.
So using very small words,
when you talk about the talent life cycle,what are we talking about?
When I think of talent lifecycle,
recruiting, hiring, onboarding,
(14:06):
assignment, performance management,development training.
learning promotions,you know, off boarding eventually.
Right. Every step along the wayfrom talent lifecycle.
And you go back to my questionbefore of together when it matters,
think of important momentsand that even that town life cycle.
Right.
So onboarding new employeesand getting them to really understand why
(14:28):
the organization exists, what their roleis going to be, who your network can be.
Some of those thingsare probably better done in person, right.
Which means that the newly onboardedperson should be, in-person meeting people
that they can build relationshipswith and navigate through the firm.
That means you're the onboarding buddiesyou might have.
There might need to be in person
if if that's a true among the true mattersto you.
(14:50):
And then, you know,as you go through, mentoring
and development and apprenticeship,there are things that we can do virtually.
You and I have this conversationand we're in two different time zones.
But there are timesand I've seen, you know, some
we see drop in performanceand management needs to intention and say,
hey, hey, wait, you're right,I've noticed x, y, z performance.
(15:12):
Why don't you and I come in, have a coffeewhiteboard out exactly what I'm seeing,
what you're feeling, and we can figure outa path going forward.
It's just tough for me to do over the overthe screen.
How about that?
That's a momentthat matters in terms of a talent
lifecycle,performance management, development,
all that some of it is, is oftentimesbetter done in person.
And figuring out intentionallyas a manager when that is best
(15:35):
for you and your team,that's something that's sort of happened,
when we're all working together,that just happened as a
as a walk by now,you've got to be purposeful
and intentionaland scheduling those kinds of things.
Yeah, I think that's really importantthat we take the view
of this as the life cycle because,
you know, the evidence certainly showsif our guts in our eyes didn't tell us
(15:56):
the evidence is starting to show thatat depending where you are in your career,
depending on where you arewith the organization, your desire
for flexibility, your ability to do this,you know, the the the perceived notion
that those darn kids never want to gointo the office, frankly, isn't true.
You know,they want to meet their coworkers.
(16:19):
They want to know what's going on.
They want access to their manager.
Whereas as you geta little further in your career
and you get better at your job
and you don't need somebodystanding over you, that changes.
So how are organizationskind of building these systems?
I mean, what are the conversations?
Who's involved in creating this?
(16:42):
So the, the, the rule of thumb, andthis came from, from last year's report,
the, the new
fundamental that we talk about is calledthink like a researcher.
Don't try to create an all encompassing
corporate wide policyand try to force it down.
When you think like a researcher,it's test and pilot something.
(17:03):
Measure it, figure out what's workingand what's not working.
Iterate upon that test and pilot it again.
And once you've got it to a placewhere it is defensible against a against
a broader culturethat would pull it apart.
Once you feel it, it's stable.
Now scaleit across the rest of the organization.
If you can do thatthrough test measurement reiteration,
you're more likely to find an approachthat's going to work for you,
(17:26):
and you'll have a playbookto how to go from a pilot
to a scaled uppolicy across the entire organization.
I think organizations that can takethat kind of approach are much more likely
to figure outwhat's going to work for them,
because their work is unique,their workforce is unique,
and how they determine their workplaceshould be unique to those situations.
(17:46):
And there's no corporate white policythat's going to, get a one size fits all.
Yeah,we have been calling that for a while now.
Pilot before policy.
For the love of everything that's wholly.
Don't build a policynotebook and fill your.
I've tried this stuff.
I'm. John, this is this has been great.
And Tempest fugitas we assumed that was going to happen.
(18:10):
True. Oh my goodness.
You leave leave us with,you know, Deloitte, some big consultancy.
You see a lot of people at very highor high levels of the organization.
What do you thinkis the specific technology
or collaborative technology
(18:32):
thing that is going to be the next thingwe need to worry about or think about?
And AI isn't really a thing in itself,right?
I'm talking about thethe actual technologies
that organizations are purchasing using
what's kind of coming over the humpthat we don't know about.
(18:53):
Well,you know, I'm not the technologist, Wayne,
but I'll say, you know, our use of
AR and VR moreand more becoming mainstream.
You know, you can wear the headset andfeel like you're sitting around a table,
with all your colleagues, even thoughyou're in multiple different time zones.
I think that's going to be somethingthat will be the next step towards
(19:14):
feeling like you're together,even though you're not together.
It will be interesting forme to see how that plays out.
you know,
there are certain things wherebeing in the same room and picking up
on the body language and, and, you know,having those conversations in the hallway,
there is something that I don't thinkwill ever replace with that.
But I would never say thatthat should replace,
(19:36):
the opportunities and flexibilitythat, that technologies like,
like what we're using rightnow, like AR, VR and AR, I,
it's just going to shape how we work,how we manage and how we lead.
One thingthat gets lost in all this technology
talk is managing work and leading
people are innate, the important thingswithin any organization.
(19:59):
And I thinkwe've got to be much more purposeful
and much more intentional increating the human and business outcomes.
And I think there's a lot of gapbetween managers, managers capabilities
and their expectationswhen it comes to that.
So I'll say the next big technologything, let's help managers manage better.
And I think that's where it's goingto come down to help them create the right
(20:20):
environment for their workforce,to help the people around them thrive.
And you'll see the business outcomesjust soar.
Well, Amen, brother.
We are going to have to leave it there.
if you have not yet read
the 2024 Human Capital Report, you jollywell should.
We will have a link to thaton the show notes.
(20:41):
We will have a link to Johnand the work that he's
doing at Deloitte, as always.
you can find those show notes at longDistance Work life.com,
along with other, episodes of the show.
if you are interested in helpingyour leaders learn to deal with the world
(21:02):
of remote and hybrid workand make the change from always there
or to whateverthe heck we're going to wind up with,
I urge you to check out our long distanceleadership series.
there are 3 to 4 of those a yearthat folks can join.
join us at KevinI can barry.com to learn for that
and if you are interested
(21:24):
in suggesting a question,suggesting a guest, suggesting a topic,
just venting about what's goingon, you can contact Marissa or myself,
through LinkedIn or at the email
addresses on your screen.
John Forsyth, Deloitte,thank you so much for being with us, man.
I really appreciate your time
(21:46):
and I hope we've got some senior leaderslistening to this conversation.
Wayne, it was a real pleasure.Thanks for having me on. Hey.
Hello, everybody.
Welcome to another edition of the LongDistance
Work Light podcast,where we try to help you thrive.
Survive, generally keep the weasels at bay
in this crazy world of remote
and hybrid work.
you know, normally this show is aimed
(00:28):
at those of us who are on the teamleader level, those of us in the trenches.
But we are aiming this conversationthis week
a little bit higher on the food chainfor senior leaders.
And for that, we need somebody with a moreimpressive name tag than I have.
So I am going to introduce youto John Forsyth,
(00:48):
who is with the Human Capital Groupat Deloitte Consulting.
He is the one of the authors,at least of the Human Capital
Trend Report 2024,which is full of fascinating stuff.
And that's what we're going to talk about.
John, how are you?
I'm doing well, Wayne, thank you so muchfor having me on the show.
(01:09):
Well, as always, thank you for being had.
Okay.
So the report came
out and it's full of fascinating stuffand we could talk for ages about it.
I really want to focus on
the growth of hybrid work
and what senior leadersare thinking about that
(01:32):
because I kind of get the sensethat, well,
your own report says 50% of execs
say that, you know,we want to have a culture.
We know it's got to be flexible.
We know thatthere are going to be subcultures.
And yet that makes them crazy.
in a nutshell,what are senior leaders concerned about
(01:56):
when it comes to, in particular,hybrid work?
It's, it's a great question.
And and I've, I've been on the recordsaying that we're going to go through this
hybrid dance, until the end of the decade.
I think what
we're going to be seeing is, is pushand pull for workforce and management,
and it's going to stabilizeover the next couple of years
(02:16):
that the bottom line isyou need to be able to let the work
and the needs of the workforce drivewhere the work happens.
And that's a it's a new algorithm.
Because, you know, when we talkabout hybrid here at Deloitte,
the phrase the news is,you know, before the pandemic
always togetherduring the pandemic never together.
(02:39):
And then since the pandemic and goingforward it's together when it matters.
Right?
Having those moments where co-location isthe best way to get the work done,
that's going to that's going to varydepending on the organization,
the work you're doing,the team that you have around you.
But using that mindset is much more likelyto get the right people
(03:00):
wanting to be co-locatedat the right time.
Now, your question was,how do executives and men look at that?
They look at that from a perspective of
we need to get business done.
I don't know if people are beingproductive because I grew up as a manager.
Seeing people around me,and they seem productive,
(03:20):
and that's a traditional wayof measuring productivity.
But in this new world,getting executives to trust
that work is being doneeven when it's not at the same place.
That's been a challenge.
And I can't tell you.
I can't tell you how thrilled I am to hearyou say that.
This is going to be a messy,ongoing process, because
(03:42):
one of the thingsthat we have been noticing for a long time
is that senior leaders in particular,and I don't mean
to throw them under the bus, it'sjust on the team level.
People seem to be reaching accommodationvery quickly about what works.
It's as the senior execskind of take a macro approach
(04:04):
to creating culture,to doing all these things.
That's the tension arises.
And one of the things that I've noticedand hopefully you can address
this is right now, what we're gettingis not so much true hybrid work
as it is uncomfortable negotiation
to how much can we make themcome in the office before they quit?
(04:27):
And how much can I notcome in the office before they fire me?
Which doesn't seemlike an effective business strategy.
Right? Yeah, and you're right.
There's incredibletension between the two of them.
So here's the way that I look at it.
I'll say any organization that can providea certain amount of workplace
flexibility has a competitive advantagewhen it comes to the war for talent.
(04:51):
It's just a question.
It's something that people are expectingright now
and and every day that you requiresomeone to come into the office
more than they feelis, is beneficial to them,
and they're in them in the best position,
getting the work done every houryou have them do more than that.
Work feels like it's meaningless to comeinto the office, and it's a cost to me.
(05:12):
That's one level less of engagementthat that that employee has.
And so you've got,you know, when we look at,
the main
findings of our Human CapitalTrends report, it's in those organizations
where people thrive,the organization is more likely to thrive.
Those organizations that are focused onbottom line result at all costs
(05:35):
are less likely to achieve those bottomline results than those organizations
that focus on achieving the human outcomeand the business outcome, and manage
both of them together.
So that equation that I talked about of,yeah, you might have the more
in the in the office morebut their engagement has reduced.
That's probably
more likely to affect your bottom linethan just having them there because.
(05:56):
Right.
So that two day a week or three day weekpolicy, blanket policy
across the entire organization,that doesn't take into consideration
those micro cultures that,you know, is another chapter in our trends
that how the work happens in your financefunction versus your HR function versus
your IT function, how happens in Tokyoversus New York or DC?
(06:16):
That's going to differ
based on the work that's happening thereand the needs of that workforce.
And so giving autonomy to local teamleads and managers to figure out
what kind of cadence of in-officeversus remote work that we do here,
that kind of autonomy has got to happen,because that's
where those differential differencesin working workforces happen.
(06:37):
And so micro cultures allows youto be able to manage this sort of mosaic
of different ways of getting work donein different parts of the organization.
Yeah, it's funny,we talked about macro cultures
and micro cultures in Kevin in my book,The Long Distance Team.
And people strugglewith this a little bit,
because we want a culture, right?
(06:58):
We want an IBM culture.
We want a Joe's Farmstand culture,whatever it is.
And yet there needs to bethat flexibility.
How does a senior leader
decide on the amount of flexibility?
I mean, my guess is,like most things, it's
(07:19):
going to be more than they wantand less than they think. you.
But how do they strike that?
But how do organizations strikethat balance?
Yeah, it's a it's a great question.
And I hate giving a typicalconsultant answer, but it depends.
It depends on the level of trust,the scale of the organization.
It comes down to this.
The executive leader'srole is to create those values.
(07:42):
how it works, what happened here,what distinguishes us in our culture.
But set wide perimeters of whatthat looks like, right.
You know, the focus on customer integrity,of course,
those things are going to happen.
You know, when we look at acrossthe board, IT organizations,
you know, you look at corporate values,
the word integrity shows up in 75%of every corporate value statement.
(08:03):
Yet every organizationseems to be different.
So yeah, having those wide perimetersbut then providing autonomy
to local management to drive the culturethat's necessary for their work.
And then, let's be frank, executiveleaders need to hold people accountable
for results.
What we're sayingnow is it's not only business results,
but hold them accountablefor human results.
(08:24):
Do I love how you kicked off thisthis conversation when you said
helping people thrive,that idea of helping people thrive,
that is such a fundamental elementof good business, good leadership.
And now in our report,we're talking about it.
There's proofnow that organizations that help people
thrive are more likelyto thrive themselves at the bottom line.
(08:45):
So it's in the sensethe values hold people accountable.
In the report,you talk a lot about, worker agency.
Yes. And
in first of all, maybe you can give a non
consultant the descriptionof exactly what that means.
But also you knowhow do you navigate increasing
(09:06):
worker agencywithout people's heads exploding.
That's a great question right.
Because I, I've seen peoplefiguratively people's heads explode
when it comes to the ideaof giving people choice in agency.
Yeah.
For the record, actualbursting of craniums
is extremely rare,but it feels like it's going to happen.
(09:27):
It does.
You can see the eyes open way when whenit looks like the it's about to explode.
It comes down to this and this isa conversation I had with all my clients.
In today's world,you have to lead and manage
differently than you were led and managed.
As we were growing up,you and I see movies of a certain age
(09:48):
when when we were growing up,we didn't have that choice.
We didn't have the agency.
There's a joke about sort of newgenerations, millennials and Gen Z.
They want to come out of schooland be a CEO right away.
It's not the case.
They want their voice heard.
They want their ideas considered, right.
They want to feel commitmentand ownership.
And oh, the idea of co-creation
(10:10):
with your workforceand giving them agency and choice.
It means seeking their input in terms
of making decisionsthat have an impact on them
and considering their voicenot as you have to.
They're that they're your boss,but that you're considering their input.
Because guess what?
In today's AI world,you're going to get your best ideas
(10:31):
from 23 year olds that understandartificial intelligence better,
to have their voice being heard as you'remaking important corporate decisions.
And guess what?
You're going to get new innovationand you're get an entire generation
of your workforce that has commitmentand ownership of your organization.
They feel like they're an owner andwhat's not and what's not good about that.
So this idea of co-creationmeans a different management style.
(10:54):
Seeking input, using that as aas a driver of your decision
making and making surethat you're driving outcomes that help
drive your business and help create
that workplacethat is helping them thrive.
Okay, so you used the magic word.
It's actually the Magic acronym,which is know.
I think we've.
(11:15):
We managed to actually get halfwaythrough this conversation
without using those two letters,but they're hard to avoid.
Yeah, I know in your trends reportand everybody's trends
report talks about oh,AI is going to grow.
It's going to be important.
It's going to be on a practical level.
What is I going to do that
(11:37):
will enable hybrid work to succeed.
what my my first answer is
I don't know all the things that I wasgoing to do, but, you know, we've begun.
I've, I've begun myself to even my age began playing with artificial intelligence.
Well, I understand it's changing so fast.
I'm not trying to put you on the spot,but as of 1119
(12:00):
Pacific on March 28th, where do we stand?
Yeah, I think it'sit is going to change the world.
I think it is going to enable, hybrid.
you're going to get to that optimizationof hybrid use
quicker because you're going to understandthe you know, what,
what rolesdo you want humans to actually perform?
(12:21):
What roles can technology,artificial intelligence, do for you?
Automation.
And the way I describeit is any kind of dirty, dangerous,
dull and disconnected workto be done by technology, right?
If you're doing if you're having to doany kind of data entry or transaction
processing or compiling of reports,technology can can do that for you.
(12:42):
What's left of the human,the truly human work.
It takes curiosity and empathyand collaboration and
and risk taking and problem solving
that we can't AI our way out of right now.
So as a manager understandingwhat's truly human
and how can I get my workforce
to spend as much of my timedoing the truly human work
(13:03):
that's going to feed your bottom line,because you're going to get them
at human performance, you're goingto get them really productive,
and you're going to create an employee
brand that everyone'sgoing to want to work for you.
The top talent is goingto want to work for you,
because you're giving them a chanceto really have impact from day one.
So it's that kind of equation that peoplehave to pay attention to now is
(13:24):
how do we what do we give to technology,and what do we truly
allow the humans to doso they can play that human role?
Well.
And the human part in this obviouslyis a big part of your remote.
And when you're remote, your reportand one of the things that you talk about
is this idea of making hybrid work
(13:45):
fit the life cycle, the talent life cycle.
And I'm kind of fascinated by thisand mildly confused.
So using very small words,
when you talk about the talent life cycle,what are we talking about?
When I think of talent lifecycle,
recruiting, hiring, onboarding,
(14:06):
assignment, performance management,development training.
learning promotions,you know, off boarding eventually.
Right. Every step along the wayfrom talent lifecycle.
And you go back to my questionbefore of together when it matters,
think of important momentsand that even that town life cycle.
Right.
So onboarding new employeesand getting them to really understand why
(14:28):
the organization exists, what their roleis going to be, who your network can be.
Some of those thingsare probably better done in person, right.
Which means that the newly onboardedperson should be, in-person meeting people
that they can build relationshipswith and navigate through the firm.
That means you're the onboarding buddiesyou might have.
There might need to be in person
if if that's a true among the true mattersto you.
(14:50):
And then, you know,as you go through, mentoring
and development and apprenticeship,there are things that we can do virtually.
You and I have this conversationand we're in two different time zones.
But there are timesand I've seen, you know, some
we see drop in performanceand management needs to intention and say,
hey, hey, wait, you're right,I've noticed x, y, z performance.
(15:12):
Why don't you and I come in, have a coffeewhiteboard out exactly what I'm seeing,
what you're feeling, and we can figure outa path going forward.
It's just tough for me to do over the overthe screen.
How about that?
That's a momentthat matters in terms of a talent
lifecycle,performance management, development,
all that some of it is, is oftentimesbetter done in person.
And figuring out intentionallyas a manager when that is best
(15:35):
for you and your team,that's something that's sort of happened,
when we're all working together,that just happened as a
as a walk by now,you've got to be purposeful
and intentionaland scheduling those kinds of things.
Yeah, I think that's really importantthat we take the view
of this as the life cycle because,
you know, the evidence certainly showsif our guts in our eyes didn't tell us
(15:56):
the evidence is starting to show thatat depending where you are in your career,
depending on where you arewith the organization, your desire
for flexibility, your ability to do this,you know, the the the perceived notion
that those darn kids never want to gointo the office, frankly, isn't true.
You know,they want to meet their coworkers.
(16:19):
They want to know what's going on.
They want access to their manager.
Whereas as you geta little further in your career
and you get better at your job
and you don't need somebodystanding over you, that changes.
So how are organizationskind of building these systems?
I mean, what are the conversations?
Who's involved in creating this?
(16:42):
So the, the, the rule of thumb, andthis came from, from last year's report,
the, the new
fundamental that we talk about is calledthink like a researcher.
Don't try to create an all encompassing
corporate wide policyand try to force it down.
When you think like a researcher,it's test and pilot something.
(17:03):
Measure it, figure out what's workingand what's not working.
Iterate upon that test and pilot it again.
And once you've got it to a placewhere it is defensible against a against
a broader culturethat would pull it apart.
Once you feel it, it's stable.
Now scaleit across the rest of the organization.
If you can do thatthrough test measurement reiteration,
you're more likely to find an approachthat's going to work for you,
(17:26):
and you'll have a playbookto how to go from a pilot
to a scaled uppolicy across the entire organization.
I think organizations that can takethat kind of approach are much more likely
to figure outwhat's going to work for them,
because their work is unique,their workforce is unique,
and how they determine their workplaceshould be unique to those situations.
(17:46):
And there's no corporate white policythat's going to, get a one size fits all.
Yeah,we have been calling that for a while now.
Pilot before policy.
For the love of everything that's wholly.
Don't build a policynotebook and fill your.
I've tried this stuff.
I'm. John, this is this has been great.
And Tempest fugitas we assumed that was going to happen.
(18:10):
True. Oh my goodness.
You leave leave us with,you know, Deloitte, some big consultancy.
You see a lot of people at very highor high levels of the organization.
What do you thinkis the specific technology
or collaborative technology
(18:32):
thing that is going to be the next thingwe need to worry about or think about?
And AI isn't really a thing in itself,right?
I'm talking about thethe actual technologies
that organizations are purchasing using
what's kind of coming over the humpthat we don't know about.
(18:53):
Well,you know, I'm not the technologist, Wayne,
but I'll say, you know, our use of
AR and VR moreand more becoming mainstream.
You know, you can wear the headset andfeel like you're sitting around a table,
with all your colleagues, even thoughyou're in multiple different time zones.
I think that's going to be somethingthat will be the next step towards
(19:14):
feeling like you're together,even though you're not together.
It will be interesting forme to see how that plays out.
you know,
there are certain things wherebeing in the same room and picking up
on the body language and, and, you know,having those conversations in the hallway,
there is something that I don't thinkwill ever replace with that.
But I would never say thatthat should replace,
(19:36):
the opportunities and flexibilitythat, that technologies like,
like what we're using rightnow, like AR, VR and AR, I,
it's just going to shape how we work,how we manage and how we lead.
One thingthat gets lost in all this technology
talk is managing work and leading
people are innate, the important thingswithin any organization.
(19:59):
And I thinkwe've got to be much more purposeful
and much more intentional increating the human and business outcomes.
And I think there's a lot of gapbetween managers, managers capabilities
and their expectationswhen it comes to that.
So I'll say the next big technologything, let's help managers manage better.
And I think that's where it's goingto come down to help them create the right
(20:20):
environment for their workforce,to help the people around them thrive.
And you'll see the business outcomesjust soar.
Well, Amen, brother.
We are going to have to leave it there.
if you have not yet read
the 2024 Human Capital Report, you jollywell should.
We will have a link to thaton the show notes.
(20:41):
We will have a link to Johnand the work that he's
doing at Deloitte, as always.
you can find those show notes at longDistance Work life.com,
along with other, episodes of the show.
if you are interested in helpingyour leaders learn to deal with the world
(21:02):
of remote and hybrid workand make the change from always there
or to whateverthe heck we're going to wind up with,
I urge you to check out our long distanceleadership series.
there are 3 to 4 of those a yearthat folks can join.
join us at KevinI can barry.com to learn for that
and if you are interested
(21:24):
in suggesting a question,suggesting a guest, suggesting a topic,
just venting about what's goingon, you can contact Marissa or myself,
through LinkedIn or at the email
addresses on your screen.
John Forsyth, Deloitte,thank you so much for being with us, man.
I really appreciate your time
(21:46):
and I hope we've got some senior leaderslistening to this conversation.
Wayne, it was a real pleasure.Thanks for having me on. Hey.
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