What do executive recruiters look for when placing chief marketing officer (CMO) candidates? Why do CMOs have some of the shortest average tenures among the C-suite?
Richard Sanderson has spent nearly his entire career as an executive recruiter. He began as an intern at Russell Reynolds Associates in the United Kingdom, then eventually joined them full-time, and was relocated to the United States. He went on to get his Master of Business Administration from the University of Chicago before shifting into a new role as .css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}Mark as PlayedTranscript
Episode Transcript
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Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing?
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond, where we talk about the questions that sparkchange and share ideas that challenge the status quo.
Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential.
to a chief marketing officer when they stop being a chief marketing officer?
(00:30):
What happens?
Is there some CMO graveyard or something they go to?
Or is there some place in heaven they end up?
It was generally curious around what happens to CMOs when they exit.
And the answer actually, when we dug it and we've looked at now three years of cumulativedata is actually really quite interesting in a positive way.
What we have found is approximately two thirds of exiting chief marketing officers areeither promoted internally
(00:54):
or they're going on to a similar or a bigger role at another company.
Today on the show, I've got Richard Sanderson who leads Spencer Stewart's Marketing, Salesand Communications Officer Practice in North America.
He's based in Chicago.
He recruits global marketing, digital growth and customer experience leaders for clientsacross all industries and sectors.
(01:18):
Before joining Spencer Stewart, Richard led the Marketing Officers Practice at RussellReynolds.
He's led a series of high profile Fortune 500 Chief Marketing Officer searches for clientsseeking to transform or evolve.
and their influence of the marketing function on their enterprise.
And he's recently recruited CMOs for leading retailers, food and beverage businesses,consumer and financial services companies, technology, and semiconductor businesses, along
(01:44):
with health payers and a variety of rapidly scaling.coms.
On the show today, we're going to talk about what it's like to be an executive recruiter,what he's looking for from CMOs in that search process, how to shine and potentially fail
in the process.
We'll talk a lot about their 2025 CMO tenure report, what the data tells us in terms oftenure experience levels, the titles that people are holding that are the most senior
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marketers in their organizations, and much more.
I hope you enjoy this conversation with Richard Sanderson.
Well, Richard, welcome back to the show.
Thank you, Alan.
(02:30):
Nice to be here again for the second time.
I know, I know it's gonna be a good conversation.
I know we were gonna talk about your latest CMO tenure report, but before we get intothat, I'm a dog guy and I hear you have a new addition, new puppy in the house.
You tell me more about this.
right, we have a new addition to the family.
A couple of months ago, we got a Bernese Mountain Dog puppy.
(02:53):
They are adorable, but destructive.
And I forgot this is actually the second time we've had a Bernese Mountain Dog.
I just forgot how much work they are.
They are way more work, I think, than having a baby.
At least you can put a diaper on a baby.
You can't do that with a dog.
And so you have all sorts of you can imagine sort of issues.
(03:14):
Little messages being left around the house you have to deal with from time to time.
Plus all the teeth is coming in, the teeth are sharp.
I've already had two pairs of ripped pants.
ah So it's only month two with this puppy.
But Bernie's Mountain Dog Puppy, all I can envision is just like a puff of hair.
You know, like the fluffiest thing in the world.
(03:36):
uh
They are very fluffy.
They're very popular with kids.
Whenever we take this puppy, we don't take them out that much, but whenever we do, we justget descended on by people.
are, I think, the most adorable dog breed to look at.
People love coming up and interacting.
Yeah, well, I hope he or she doesn't continue to work its way through your work attire umbecause you have a very important job.
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You're the executive, our executive recruiter at Spencer Stewart.
I think you lead much of the marketing, CMO job placement opportunities.
So I'd love to know how did you get into this field?
Yeah, so thank you for asking Alan, because it's actually a slightly unusual story.
I think when people think about the path to becoming an executive search consultant orheadhunter, as it's more colloquially known, I mean, I don't think anyone wakes up age 20
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or 21 and says, gosh, I want to be a headhunter today.
That's just not the typical career path people come to this through.
think this is something that people join actually later in life.
So in that sense, I was actually a little bit unusual because I did originally join anexecutive search firm right out of undergrads when I was 21 in the United Kingdom.
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I had actually done a summer internship.
I had seen the posting up in the university job office.
This was the days when there's still postings on these sort of index cards.
I know everything's done on online and through LinkedIn and everything like that.
But this was the day I'm dating myself now where, you know, jobs were literallyadvertised, written, published, printed and put on job boards, physical job boards.
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I remember for an internship, I saw that it seemed unusual, different, maybe I'm acontrarian by nature.
I wanted to do just something different, didn't want to fall in the default path.
there was this, mean, it was the company at the time, was Russell Reynolds Associates, waslooking to bring on a researcher for the summer to join them.
So that's how I started.
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I rejoined full time, worked for them for five years, both in the United Kingdom, and thenin the United States.
And then I left.
So think of that as of chapter one.
Chapter two was driven really more by personal circumstances than anything else.
I met my now wife when I transferred to Boston.
For various reasons, she wanted to come to Chicago, mainly to do her PhD here.
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And that was the moment I left.
Reynolds did my MBA at the University of Chicago.
And then in that case, I did follow a very traditional career route out of businessschool.
I did join a management consulting firm.
At the time it was called Booz Allen Hamilton.
became
Booze and company, it split and then all the, essentially the middle market strategyconsulting firms really have all disappeared.
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You had to have scale and in their case, they were ultimately bought by PWC.
I had left long before that though.
In 2010, I rejoined Russell Reynolds Associates in Chicago.
And then in 2018, really switched team jerseys and came over to Spencer Stewart where I'vebeen now for the last seven years.
That's awesome.
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That's awesome.
Well, well, maybe not awesome for Russell Reynolds, but awesome for you, Lani, SpencerStewart.
And uh I think in large part, I he's still there.
Greg Welch is still at firm, but previously led many of the CMO searches.
Yeah, that's right.
Greg and I are very close partners.
In fact, I credit him and thank him for bringing me into into this firm.
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And look, indeed, the key reason I came, I think, is because of him.
I mean, I very much view him.
I think others do as really the godfather of the CMO recruitment space.
And he's still an incredible force and presence.
And indeed, the CMO tenure study that we're going to talk about was it was his it was hislittle baby.
He had started this 20 or so years ago.
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You place a lot of CMOs and before we get into the tenure report, I thought it deservesasking, as you're looking for CMOs, what are you looking for and if there's any advice for
executives on how to shine or cautionary tales of how people fail in the process that youcould share.
Yeah, absolutely.
(07:43):
Look, my observation would be each Chief Marketing Officer role is somewhat unique and wedo spend a lot of time just trying to understand what is the need.
many marketing roles have very different focuses.
Some, for example, are focused around brand or brand strategy, driving awarenessconsideration.
Some are more focused around product or innovation.
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And some are more channel focused or, you know, the term goes more lower funnel focusedaround performance marketing, conversion, et cetera.
So first of all, I think the point to say is we do try and get a very strong understandingof, you know, what is the need.
I think the other aspect I would say around, you know, what are we looking for is we tryand understand the characteristics of any particular business or industry.
(08:31):
You know, a good example would be in the last few years, there's been a particular focusfrom clients that are in.
recurring revenue or subscription businesses and the types of skills or capabilitiesaround acquisition, retention, loyalty, customer lifetime value.
That is a specific set of experiences or capabilities.
I think the third aspect that we try and marry up is around uh style.
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And that may not be the right word.
I don't mean style of individual, but style of company.
And what type of situation does it find itself in?
Look, when clients come to us,
There's often a very specific need.
It may be because they're in a turnaround.
There's a need for transformation.
They could be a growth play.
It could be an early stage business.
It could be a mature business.
And I think these sort of characteristics of where a company or a client finds itself alsodetermines what the CMO role is going to look like.
(09:24):
There are, course, on any given search, there's a set of, you know, and if you read aposition description or a job specification, they'll talk about experience and
capabilities.
Increasingly, Alan, I really view those as table stakes in the sense of you can actuallytell a lot about an individual probably around experience and capabilities from their
(09:44):
resume if it's well written.
The point I would emphasize that it's not about is, I mean, to me at least, it's not abouteducational credentials.
I when I talk to someone, whether they went to some uh local community college or whetherthey did some MBA at Harvard, I...
Personally, I'll give you, this is a judgment call.
(10:06):
I personally don't really put much value in that whatsoever.
I certainly think by the time that we're engaging with someone, it is much more about theaccomplishments in their career.
It's not about educational credentials.
And finally, I would say about this, what does it take to shine or what does it take tofail or what causes failure in these processes?
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I I've sort of come to the view over the years that
It's yes, it's your resume that gets your foot in the door for any particular job or theopportunity.
But it's the chemistry and the culture that gets you the job.
And a lot of feedback we get from from clients, you know, sometimes boils down to whetherwe quote unquote, like a candidate or not.
(10:50):
And what that really is, is a euphemism for fit.
Now that is highly subjective.
It's also very hard, I think sometimes provide
candidates with feedback as to why they may or may not have been successful in a processwhere sometimes it can come down to subjective X factors.
(11:10):
That said, mean, I certainly for marketers, if there is one piece of advice I often give,it's actually around uh brevity.
I do find many marketers like to talk.
mean, it's a great feature.
think of marketers that they're generally very interesting.
In many cases, highly.
extraverted characters.
But I do believe you have to remember, what I think is the ABC of interviewing accuracy,brevity, clarity.
(11:38):
You've got to keep those things in mind.
if you I always tell when I prep candidates, look, if you find yourself going off on afive minute monologue, that's probably not good.
And if it's 10 minutes, you know, you probably bombed the interview already.
I mean, you have to think very carefully.
You've got 45 minutes, maybe an hour.
you have to think carefully about what is the messaging you want to give.
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And then finally, I mean, look, I do think you can prepare for interviews.
I the most common form of of of interviewing nowadays is what's referred to as behavioralinterviewing, the sense that you know, what you've done in the past is the best predictor
of what you can do in the future.
behavioral interview without any practice or rehearsal is actually tough.
(12:21):
Because you can find yourself coming up with sometimes just tangential incoherent answersthat don't really
address the question being asked.
And so I do encourage people to think about examples in their career that they want togive soundbites, but focus on what was the situation?
What was the obstacle you faced?
What was the action you took?
What was the result you got?
And make sure you can compress that into 90 seconds, maybe two minutes to avoid going offon this extended monologue where you start, I think, losing the capture of the engagement
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of the interviewer.
So there's lots in there.
Alan around how to shine or how to fail.
Look, some of it is subjective, some of it is objective, but a lot of it does come down topreparation and experience.
Yeah, no, I love all of those nuggets.
mean, the ABCs, accuracy, brevity, clarity, great example.
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Behavioral interview practice, that it's not something you wanna go in cold with.
Makes perfect sense as well.
And the notion of like chemistry, think you said, chemistry and culture is a lot of timeswhere the decision is being made.
It makes me think about, I've used this with groups that I talk to from time to time, likehow many people around the table actually built a spreadsheet.
(13:33):
when they were selecting their spouse.
And almost, I have had one hand raised in the past.
there's one person out there at least, but most people I know they go, no, like why wouldI do that?
Exactly.
And that's usually how it comes down to making a hiring decision too.
Like the paper, the spreadsheet gets you in the door, but the, to your point, like the fitis where it's at.
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So.
Anyway, well, let's talk about the 2025 CMO 10-year report from Spencer Stewart.
It looks like there's a slight increase to 4.3 years tenure in 2024.
Curious as you think about like that increase, like what factories do you think arecontributing to that?
(14:22):
4.3 years number has been somewhat steady, Alan.
I mean, we have seen this now hover between 4.2 to 4.5 years now for a few years now.
And so the question I most often get asked is, know, so is 4.3 a good number or a badnumber?
Is that something marketers should be proud of or scared of?
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Which way should they go on that spectrum?
I I would say actually 4.3, there's a number of ways you can look at that.
The nature of the study that we do, we use a data set where we look at every marketingleader in the Fortune 500.
So it's a fairly stable set.
We do it across other functional leaders.
So we actually now have a, for a number of years, we've had a comparison set.
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So it's both longitudinal over time, so we have a number of years data and it's sort ofhorizontal in the sense that we can look at the tenure and other characteristics of other
C-suite leaders.
So I'd say there's two ways to break this out.
When you look at just this 4.3 number of CMOs alone, there's actually a more interestingstory when it's broken out by industry.
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And so for example, CMOs in the healthcare industry actually have the highest tenure at5.3 years, followed by financial services at 4.8.
Interestingly, and perhaps counterintuitively, and I'm sure we'll get into this, thelowest tenure.
is in consumer industries at about 3.9 years.
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It averages out at 4.3.
So that's point number one.
Point number two, though, is when you compare this across other C-suite roles, the averagetenure of any given functional C-suite leader is actually about 4.9 years.
So marketing, chief marketing officer 4.3, look, it's not wildly different from theC-suite average of
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of 4.9 and even that 4.9 is actually quite skewed by the chief executive officer.
Just so you know, the average tenure of a chief executive officer of a Fortune 500 companyis 7.4 years.
But we see many other functional leaders, most functional leaders are in this four to fiveyear tenure range.
Yes, it is true that marketing leaders are slightly at the lower end of that spectrum, butI'm sure we'll come on to discuss.
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I have now been preaching for a while.
low tenure is not a sign of failure.
I mean, I mean, just to give you the punchline, I mean, the reality is, we've seen we'vegot plenty of data now, many marketing leaders are being promoted into bigger and better
roles.
So in other words, short tenure is not a sense of there's a bunch of CMOs being fired.
It's quite the opposite.
(17:01):
So much of CMOs being promoted and given other opportunities.
So I am at pains to sort of recast this narrative that short tenure
somehow is a bad thing.
It's really not.
Now again, we'll get into the details, but broadly speaking, it's 4.3 years, it's somewhatsteady.
Yes, it's below the C-suite average, but there's actually a lot of differences when youbreak this out by industry.
(17:24):
One quick follow up on that is the difference between the C-suite leaders that you'retalking about and the CEO.
I have to believe there's something to the math there, meaning like is it somewhat afactor of a CEO coming in and deciding to make some changes to his team?
(17:46):
um And that's kind of the connotation or is it the cycle of which um
know, performance of a CEO is evaluated over the performance of uh the C-suite staff.
Well, it's a really great question because I think the next wave of research, we haven'tdone it yet, but I'd love to go there, which is, you know, what is the likelihood or the
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propensity, whatever the the right verbal adjective would be for there to be significantturnover in say, the first 12 months of a new CEO?
In other words, is he or she in the CEO role, likely to trigger changes in the C suite?
Because you know, I think it's indoctrinated into
first time or multi-occasional CEO, is you've got a window probably in your first sixmonths to reset your team.
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And so I do wonder whether there are some triggers of turnover related to CEOappointments, the length of time they've been in role.
Look, I do think there's an interesting way, anecdotally, when I have discussed this withothers, the role that is actually most likely to turn right after a CEO appointment is
actually the chief communications officer.
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That role is actually, I think intuitively the closest to a CEO in terms of I thinkthey're often probably working very closely on writing his or her speeches, trying to
decipher the strategy going through their mind.
It's a very, I think the chief communications officer, for example, is a very personalappointment to a CEO where they want someone probably known to them or trusted to them.
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And that is the role anecdotally that I have seen that is most likely to be triggered by aCEO appointment.
But I am curious to see, and I do think this is a function.
that see in other roles that you are more likely to see some turnover in other C-suiteroles in the six or 12 months following a C-suite.
You mentioned the fact that the CMOs that are in these roles think I've got the statright.
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I think it's something like two thirds of the CMOs are actually being promoted into moresenior or bigger lateral roles, if you will.
What do you think it is about CMOs or maybe these individuals, group of individuals thatthey possess that make it suitable for these like advancements to be taking place?
So, yes, that's a thoughtful question.
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Here's what I say first of all, the number that we have seen when we've tracked theFortune 500 and we tracked exits over the last three years, I we were simply asking
ourselves, what happens to a chief marketing officer when they stop being a chiefmarketing officer?
I what happens?
Is there some CMO graveyard or something they go to or is there some place in heaven theyend up?
It was generally curious around what happens to CMOs when they exit.
(20:21):
And the answer actually, when we dug it and we've looked at now three years of cumulativedata is actually really quite interesting in a positive way.
What we have found is approximately two thirds of exiting chief marketing offices areeither promoted internally or they're going on to a similar or a bigger role at another
company.
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So I think, first of all, this is a, it's a good news story.
This is why I'm saying, you know, low tenure is not a bad feature.
And also there are some differences in industry which I'll come on to right now.
I broadly speaking, just to give you last year's data of that, was actually 64 % was theprecise number for last year of that 64%.
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23 % were taking a new role within the company.
In other words, they're often being promoted into some sort of general management,president, regional, other functional leadership roles.
23 % keep doing a marketing role but are...
So they're probably taking a CMO role but at another company.
So in other words, they're taking a lateral move and 12 % of them are moving out ofmarketing at a new company.
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And this is a case where they're looking every year there is a small percent of CMOs thatare promoted into CEO, which I think is a great news story and comes back to the point or
the question I think you were asking me, which is, know, what skills or experiences domarketing leaders have that allow them or facilitate their onward development?
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And this is where I will make some breakouts by industry.
I I think, for example, in consumer and particularly CPG, so consumer products,industries, I mean, if you look at classic companies
the marketing route up is the path into general management and P &L leadership.
in those businesses.
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mean, they are overtly designed to be the next generation of business leaders.
So I don't think that we should be surprised that the tenure is lower in consumer becauseI think we're playing out that exact hypothesis that those marketing leaders are being
plucked or identified or being developed for future onward opportunities.
Why?
Because fundamentally, strongly come to believe the closer a marketing leader is toinfluencing revenue.
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just simply the more commercial and strategic impact they're going to have on theirbusiness.
I I certainly, you when I'm having private conversation with marketing leaders, I alwaysencourage them, look, the closer you are to having influence over revenue, I think just
the more stable and actually more rewarding I think your role will be.
We have to accept though, that there are some industries where the marketing role is notnecessarily structured to have direct revenue impact.
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I do think we need to be honest about that.
I've given an example where in consumer products, I think it is.
But look, if we look in, say, more industrial-based businesses, even some health carebusinesses, look, the honest truth is marketing does not necessarily have a direct
correlation to revenue generation.
I think it plays a significant role in terms of revenue or sales enablement and support.
(23:28):
But there are some industries where the marketing role is simply not as empowered.
or not directly impactful on the P &L or revenue as it is in other industries.
that is somewhat unique, I think, about the marketing role that it does play, I think,different roles in different industries.
That's an overt generalization, Alan, I recognize that.
(23:48):
And I can give you plenty of counter examples in both.
But broadly speaking, I think that is a truism that we see across industries.
Yeah, no, I I would tend to agree with the generalization.
I do think there are some industries, I'm seeing this in financial services in particular,maybe historically was more of a communications, marketing enablement type role or sales
(24:10):
enablement type role.
And I'm seeing more and more strategic push into driving revenue generation.
I would agree if I could build upon that, Alan, I mean, I the two industries to me thatare the most, I think have gone through the most evolution and empowerment of the role
over the last five or 10 years is financial services and healthcare.
I mean, let's be honest, 20 years ago, I think very talented marketing lead.
(24:32):
And well, first of all, definition of financial services, very broad definition coverseverything from real estate, insurance, credit cards, retail banking, investment
management.
mean, there's a financial services are really broad.
definition.
But as you look at some of those subsegments, marketing has become very influential inthose industries or categories.
Let me take insurance, for example.
Let's be honest, 20 or 30 years ago, I don't think the best market is necessarily thoughtof insurance as a destination for their career.
(25:00):
Nowadays, however, I think some of the most sophisticated marketing is actually takingplace in insurance.
If nothing else, they have some of the largest marketing budgets out there.
All of them have been driven, I think, incredible brand.
positionings, whether it's using geckos or characters, they've become long-term, somewhatendearing stories over years.
(25:24):
Accompany that with disruptions in how they go to market in terms of building out directdigital channels and capabilities.
mean, think insurance is a great example of where you see some really very advanced fullfunnel marketing capabilities that wasn't the case 20 or 30 years ago.
I think you could say the same about some aspects of healthcare, healthcare provision inparticular, where a while back, I think marketing was predominantly a marketing
(25:50):
communications role.
Now we are beginning to see some healthcare businesses think of themselves arguably moreakin to hospitality businesses.
To be clear, these are my words I'm going to use now, not from a client or from anindustry, but there's a sense of how do you put heads in beds?
in hospitals, much the same way that hotels or hospitalities think about how do weoptimize our assets and put heads in bed.
(26:16):
So we are seeing some really interesting evolution of business models I think are veryempowering for marketing leaders and provide new career destinations.
Another stat I picked up on was I think it's only 40 % of Fortune 500 marketing leadersthat you looked at hold the CMO title.
Meaning that there's probably many that are holding either like dual functions ormarketing kind of adjacent titles.
(26:40):
How do I think about that and the changing responsibilities?
Yeah, you should.
So look, I think this is part of a broader picture that there's been an enormous evolutionof marketing over the past five to 10 years.
I mean, I know I have spoken and written before about just, you know, the growth, sort ofalmost the smorgasbord that exists of marketing and marketing adjacent titles that have
(27:01):
grown and mushroomed, you like, over last few years, chief growth officers, chief revenueofficers, chief customer officers, chief experience officers.
I mean, they're all fundamentally, I think they have marketing at their heart that therehas been this sort of
clear evolution of the role.
And it has got to the point, as you've just identified that actually half of people whoare doing marketing leadership roles, less than half even have the Chief Marketing Officer
(27:25):
title now.
So, you know, in our study for 2024, it's about 40%.
What we are seeing now, I'd say there's two or three other major categories.
There's what I call the CMO plus roles or CMO plus plus, which is you're right, it's oftenmarketing and another
another responsibility area that may vary by industry.
(27:47):
for example, if you're in retail, could be marketing and merchandising.
For example, I think the most common one we see has been marketing and communications.
That to me is actually a bit of a big deal because we have seen a fragmentation ofmarketing and communications.
Many Fortune 500 companies now will have separate standalone marketing leaders versuscommunications leaders.
They are now quite clear and distinct disciplines, but nonetheless, our data shows thatsome still have that.
(28:13):
that marketing and communications, or we'll see other variants, know, marketing anddigital, marketing and growth, but there is the sense of 8 % have CMO plus roles.
There's a second bucket, which I mentioned, which is this sort of other chief role, chiefcommercial, chief growth, chief experience.
There are this, there's this family of other type of, they are still marketing centricroles at their heart, but we've seen now a wave of those again, they will vary by
(28:41):
business.
And then, you know, there's actually a fairly significant number of folks that have thesenior uh marketing leadership role in their company, but they simply, they just simply
don't have the chief title in them.
They may be an EVP or an SVP of marketing, marketing and sales for various reasons.
Either the role itself isn't commanding the chief title or simply the company chooses notto use chief title.
(29:09):
So it's still clearly the
the most senior marketing role in the business.
But the broader point is now, as I said, only 40%, so less than half of the top marketingpeople actually just have the straightforward Chief Marketing Officer title now.
That is now in the minority, not the majority.
And that has changed.
That's interesting.
Well, something around the neighborhood of 37 % of Fortune 500 CEOs have some element ofmarketing experience.
(29:35):
Yes.
uh And I'm curious, like, what unique perspective do you think that that adds to the CEOrole?
Yeah, so the path to CEO, there's lots of ways you can go.
mean, one of the more common ones, I think the most common one we see will be someonewho's been running a president, general manager of a business unit or region.
They may have stepped into a chief operating officer role as some sort of succession stepand then into then into CEO.
(30:00):
It's still relatively rare to go straight from chief marketing to chief executive officer.
That said, to your point, as we have looked at all the CEOs,
of Fortune 500 companies, our belief is at some point in their career, admittedly, it mayhave been early in their career, but at some point in their career, about 37 % have held
some sort of marketing leadership role or clearly have marketing experience.
(30:24):
Why is that helpful?
I mean, you're asking someone who spends their entire time with marketers, so of course,I'm going to give you a little bit of a biased view as to why I think it's important.
ultimately, when you think around the constituents of the C-suite,
Who ultimately is the voice of the customer?
Is it the Chief Financial Officer?
Not really.
(30:45):
Is it the Chief Information Officer?
I don't think so.
Is it the Chief HR Leader?
Nope.
mean, really, you know, it is the marketing leader is the true customer or consumeradvocate.
They're the voice of the customer.
They will have spent time understanding insights, segmentation, targeting strategies.
They probably understand pricing, promotion, how to incentivize.
(31:07):
action is the true connection, somewhat uniquely.
You could say some sales roles have this, but marketing, think, is at the center,particularly given some of the insights-driven work that really is the voice of the
customer at the C-suite or at the leadership table.
And so I do think that that experience is very helpful.
(31:27):
I would love that number to be higher than 37%, but at least at some point, a full third,just over a third of CEOs
have some personal first-hand direct understanding and leadership of marketing at somepoint in their career.
You can be biased all you want when you talk about marketing experience at the CEO level,because I agree with you.
(31:48):
And I think your perspective, you highlighted that, like, you know, that marketing role isin practice should be the voice of customer where markets are going, kind of that external
looking face, maybe that and the sales function itself, if you have a head of sales.
But like the rest of the roles are really more operational efficiency driven.
(32:11):
streamlining organizations, et cetera.
So I 100 % agree with you.
This has been fascinating.
I always love to get an updated view of what's going on in the tenure space with CMOs andthe data that you guys produce each year.
It's always fascinating conversation.
One of the things we like to do is get to know you even a little bit better.
And one of the questions that I always like to ask, and I've actually asked you thisbefore, so if you have the same answer, that's okay.
(32:36):
But what experience of your past defines or makes up who you are today?
Well, I mean, think, I mean, for me, I feel it's actually really added benefit to havelived and worked extensively in two different continents.
And I do.
think I have found that to be helpful on number of levels.
(32:57):
And I have to say, and I'm actually sad it's becoming a little bit rarer in the sense of Ithink it's becoming increasingly more challenging in someone's life and career.
to move countries, move continents, we all know, visa processes, visa applications.
My general worry is, if I was to put it really bluntly, there's been just a decrease inlabor mobility might be the way, labor geographic mobility might be the way of phrasing
(33:25):
that correctly.
And I feel very fortunate to have a good understanding of the United Kingdom, of Europe,of companies, of cultures, as well as...
as well as the United States, and particularly in this moment when we're recording, whenwe're going through a period of some tariff and trade tension
I I personally think being able to firsthand have that point of view, bring it to the workhere, have some different senses of style, of what makes success, of how people operate in
(33:53):
different countries, continents, and cultures.
That to me, I think has been immensely valuable and I wouldn't want to give that up atall.
And I do think it is actually an aspect of what defines me.
If nothing else, Alan, most obviously, despite living in the United States for 25 years,people tell me I still have a fairly strong British accent.
I've tried doing an American accent.
It sounds like some terrible Texan twang gone wrong.
(34:16):
So I'm just going to stick with the way I am, but I'm very happy.
I love the accent and yes, you still have it.
Not that you need me to remind you, you still do.
But I was recently at a table of colleagues and I loved the fact that I literally was theonly person with an American accent.
I had, I think, three Brits, an Aussie, and honestly, I can't remember where the other onewas from, but it was not from America.
(34:39):
uh so I, one, wish I had a better accent, first and foremost, and two, uh wish I had moreof those experiences you talked about.
Curious if you're starting this all over again, what advice would you give your youngerself?
You know, I thinking about this because I sensed you were probably going to ask me thisquestion.
you know, when I think about what's most valuable to me today that perhaps I didn'tappreciate 20 years ago, and if I was to give my younger self some advice, it's around the
(35:12):
concept of time.
I think as we go through our lives and our career, become, we become busier and busier,and our time becomes more valuable as we go through our career.
Ironically, at start of our career, we may be a little bit resource poorer, but time rich.
And later in life, you know, we're maybe a little bit resource richer, but time poorer.
And so, you what I value now is the ability to have autonomy and direction over my time.
(35:38):
And I try and use my time the way that gives me the most joy and gives me the mostpleasure.
I might look back at myself 20, whatever it is, 25, gosh, dare I say almost 30 years agonow.
And the advice would be
value your time because that is a resource you can't get back.
You will have less of it as you go through your life.
Okay, I hope there's a moment I come and I come and retire but you know your best physicalyears maybe psychological, emotional, your ability to do things, the spirit of adventure
(36:10):
is great as when you're younger.
So I'd simply say to if I was to give wind the clock back, we think more carefully aboutwhat you do with your time.
and make the most of it because it's the resource you will most treasure later in yourlife and you can't get it back.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Either something you're trying to learn more about or you think a topic that marketersneed to be learning more about today.
(36:34):
Well, I mean, the topic that I worry about, do try and better understand is just thisongoing evolution of what on earth is going on with our industry.
I mean, I really do believe it's very hard to be a senior marketing leader these days.
I you are expected to be everything from a brand visionary, a product marketing guruthrough to a data scientist, a marketing technologist, an expert on life cycle marketing.
(37:00):
You're expected to do everything these days.
I mean, it's unbelievable.
It's really hard.
So there's one sense of something I'm trying to keep on top of or better understand isthis ongoing evolution.
Where is this all going?
I'm not going to say AI.
I'm sure everyone else on your show has said AI.
Alan, I'm not going to go there.
I'll leave that for others.
Of course, there's a lot going on there.
What does that mean?
(37:20):
We've recently published some stuff on that topic.
That's obviously going to be a huge feature going forward.
So I don't want to underplay that.
But I think there's other things that have made the job really hard, really difficult thataren't going to go away.
No, I agree and I appreciate someone in your position saying like the marketing role issuper complex and like you mentioned everything from technology to how do I drag growth to
(37:45):
process to like, mean, you literally have to be an expert in almost every aspect of how abusiness runs to be a chief marketing officer today.
That is right.
And it's constantly evolving.
Which is both the fun thing and the terrifying thing all at the same time.
So I agree
I mean, I've sometimes felt that this is over the next five or 10 years, we may be at amoment for marketing leaders of evolution or extinction.
(38:13):
There's a point of view that the traditional marketing role may go away in the next 10years.
I'm sort of on board with that.
mean, and that's why I think we're seeing the evolution of the role around the concept ofa chief growth officer or a chief experience officer.
I do think there are some...
and others who more experienced will comment on this for you, Alan, but there aresignificant elements of the marketing portfolio that are going to be transformed and
(38:36):
automated through AI.
So where exactly are marketing leaders going to add value in the future?
I mean, I do think this is a moment of thinking around evolution or, I mean, extinction isprobably too strong a word, but I'll put it out there because I think it gets people's
attention.
But I do think we're going to see this wave of evolution we've spoken about for the last10 years.
That pace, I do not believe is going to diminish.
(38:57):
If anything, it may accelerate.
And I do think we have to be considerate around what does that mean for marketingleadership in the future and how we even frame what marketing leadership is.
Well, I'm one on the on the other side of the camp that I hope marketing titles andmarketing leaders don't go away and that they're not going to be extinct.
I do think to your point, I think there is a rapid evolution of what it means to be amarketing leader and whether we call them that in the future or whether it's a component
(39:26):
of their job.
I may see that point too, but we'll we'll live to fight another day, Richard.
We And we'll have this debate going forward.
So last question for you.
uh
I'll ask is what do you think is the largest opportunity or threat facing marketers?
Oh, that is an in.
that's a good question.
I will bring it back to the point I made before, which is the biggest opportunity Istrongly feel for marketers is to align themselves with growth, revenue and the CEO
(40:02):
agenda.
think when we see, when we get calls from clients around, gosh, you know, for variousreasons, we need to rethink the marketing leadership role.
The most common reason is a misalignment of agendas between the CEO and the CMO.
So I think there is this number one, the biggest opportunity is around ensuring the agendais aligned.
But part of that is, I to just get beyond that sort of corporate speak, which is, know,where marketers have sometimes gone sideways is they don't speak the language of the CEO
(40:31):
or the board.
I have heard a number of CEOs express frustration that when their chief marketing officeris coming to them during their one-on-one...
They're talking about number of eyeballs or number of impressions.
That I hate to say it, Alan, I don't think CEOs really care that much about that.
They want to know about revenue.
They want to know about margin.
(40:52):
They want to know about profit.
Talk that language.
Talk about how your work translates to tangible outcomes that impact the CEO and the boardof directors and for public companies.
What does that translate to, for example, in terms of earnings per share?
Talk that language.
That's the biggest opportunity.
(41:13):
Align the agenda, talk the language of the team that you want to be around.
I love that.
And Richard, as always, it's so much fun to have you on the show.
Always a little friction where the role's going.
And so we'll keep playing that out over the times we come back, have you come back on theshow when you've got the latest set of data again in the future.
So thank you again.
Thank you for having me.
(41:37):
The views, thoughts and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent theviews, thoughts and opinions of Deloitte.
Material and information presented here is for general information purposes only and doesnot imply endorsement or opposition to any specific company, product, or service.
Hi, it's Alan again.
(41:58):
Marketing Beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast.
It's created and produced by me with post-production support from Sam Robertson.
If you're new to Marketing Beyond, please feel free to write us a review and subscribe onyour favorite listening platform.
I also invite you to explore the other Deloitte digital podcast at deloittedigital.comslash us slash podcast and share the show with your friends and colleagues.
(42:24):
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I'm Alan Hart, and this is Marketing Beyond.
Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing?
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond, where we talk about the questions that sparkchange and share ideas that challenge the status quo.
Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential.
to a chief marketing officer when they stop being a chief marketing officer?
(00:30):
What happens?
Is there some CMO graveyard or something they go to?
Or is there some place in heaven they end up?
It was generally curious around what happens to CMOs when they exit.
And the answer actually, when we dug it and we've looked at now three years of cumulativedata is actually really quite interesting in a positive way.
What we have found is approximately two thirds of exiting chief marketing officers areeither promoted internally
(00:54):
or they're going on to a similar or a bigger role at another company.
Today on the show, I've got Richard Sanderson who leads Spencer Stewart's Marketing, Salesand Communications Officer Practice in North America.
He's based in Chicago.
He recruits global marketing, digital growth and customer experience leaders for clientsacross all industries and sectors.
(01:18):
Before joining Spencer Stewart, Richard led the Marketing Officers Practice at RussellReynolds.
He's led a series of high profile Fortune 500 Chief Marketing Officer searches for clientsseeking to transform or evolve.
and their influence of the marketing function on their enterprise.
And he's recently recruited CMOs for leading retailers, food and beverage businesses,consumer and financial services companies, technology, and semiconductor businesses, along
(01:44):
with health payers and a variety of rapidly scaling.coms.
On the show today, we're going to talk about what it's like to be an executive recruiter,what he's looking for from CMOs in that search process, how to shine and potentially fail
in the process.
We'll talk a lot about their 2025 CMO tenure report, what the data tells us in terms oftenure experience levels, the titles that people are holding that are the most senior
(02:09):
marketers in their organizations, and much more.
I hope you enjoy this conversation with Richard Sanderson.
Well, Richard, welcome back to the show.
Thank you, Alan.
(02:30):
Nice to be here again for the second time.
I know, I know it's gonna be a good conversation.
I know we were gonna talk about your latest CMO tenure report, but before we get intothat, I'm a dog guy and I hear you have a new addition, new puppy in the house.
You tell me more about this.
right, we have a new addition to the family.
A couple of months ago, we got a Bernese Mountain Dog puppy.
(02:53):
They are adorable, but destructive.
And I forgot this is actually the second time we've had a Bernese Mountain Dog.
I just forgot how much work they are.
They are way more work, I think, than having a baby.
At least you can put a diaper on a baby.
You can't do that with a dog.
And so you have all sorts of you can imagine sort of issues.
(03:14):
Little messages being left around the house you have to deal with from time to time.
Plus all the teeth is coming in, the teeth are sharp.
I've already had two pairs of ripped pants.
ah So it's only month two with this puppy.
But Bernie's Mountain Dog Puppy, all I can envision is just like a puff of hair.
You know, like the fluffiest thing in the world.
(03:36):
uh
They are very fluffy.
They're very popular with kids.
Whenever we take this puppy, we don't take them out that much, but whenever we do, we justget descended on by people.
are, I think, the most adorable dog breed to look at.
People love coming up and interacting.
Yeah, well, I hope he or she doesn't continue to work its way through your work attire umbecause you have a very important job.
(04:03):
You're the executive, our executive recruiter at Spencer Stewart.
I think you lead much of the marketing, CMO job placement opportunities.
So I'd love to know how did you get into this field?
Yeah, so thank you for asking Alan, because it's actually a slightly unusual story.
I think when people think about the path to becoming an executive search consultant orheadhunter, as it's more colloquially known, I mean, I don't think anyone wakes up age 20
(04:30):
or 21 and says, gosh, I want to be a headhunter today.
That's just not the typical career path people come to this through.
think this is something that people join actually later in life.
So in that sense, I was actually a little bit unusual because I did originally join anexecutive search firm right out of undergrads when I was 21 in the United Kingdom.
(04:52):
I had actually done a summer internship.
I had seen the posting up in the university job office.
This was the days when there's still postings on these sort of index cards.
I know everything's done on online and through LinkedIn and everything like that.
But this was the day I'm dating myself now where, you know, jobs were literallyadvertised, written, published, printed and put on job boards, physical job boards.
(05:12):
I remember for an internship, I saw that it seemed unusual, different, maybe I'm acontrarian by nature.
I wanted to do just something different, didn't want to fall in the default path.
there was this, mean, it was the company at the time, was Russell Reynolds Associates, waslooking to bring on a researcher for the summer to join them.
So that's how I started.
(05:32):
I rejoined full time, worked for them for five years, both in the United Kingdom, and thenin the United States.
And then I left.
So think of that as of chapter one.
Chapter two was driven really more by personal circumstances than anything else.
I met my now wife when I transferred to Boston.
For various reasons, she wanted to come to Chicago, mainly to do her PhD here.
(05:54):
And that was the moment I left.
Reynolds did my MBA at the University of Chicago.
And then in that case, I did follow a very traditional career route out of businessschool.
I did join a management consulting firm.
At the time it was called Booz Allen Hamilton.
became
Booze and company, it split and then all the, essentially the middle market strategyconsulting firms really have all disappeared.
(06:17):
You had to have scale and in their case, they were ultimately bought by PWC.
I had left long before that though.
In 2010, I rejoined Russell Reynolds Associates in Chicago.
And then in 2018, really switched team jerseys and came over to Spencer Stewart where I'vebeen now for the last seven years.
That's awesome.
(06:37):
That's awesome.
Well, well, maybe not awesome for Russell Reynolds, but awesome for you, Lani, SpencerStewart.
And uh I think in large part, I he's still there.
Greg Welch is still at firm, but previously led many of the CMO searches.
Yeah, that's right.
Greg and I are very close partners.
In fact, I credit him and thank him for bringing me into into this firm.
(06:59):
And look, indeed, the key reason I came, I think, is because of him.
I mean, I very much view him.
I think others do as really the godfather of the CMO recruitment space.
And he's still an incredible force and presence.
And indeed, the CMO tenure study that we're going to talk about was it was his it was hislittle baby.
He had started this 20 or so years ago.
(07:23):
You place a lot of CMOs and before we get into the tenure report, I thought it deservesasking, as you're looking for CMOs, what are you looking for and if there's any advice for
executives on how to shine or cautionary tales of how people fail in the process that youcould share.
Yeah, absolutely.
(07:43):
Look, my observation would be each Chief Marketing Officer role is somewhat unique and wedo spend a lot of time just trying to understand what is the need.
many marketing roles have very different focuses.
Some, for example, are focused around brand or brand strategy, driving awarenessconsideration.
Some are more focused around product or innovation.
(08:07):
And some are more channel focused or, you know, the term goes more lower funnel focusedaround performance marketing, conversion, et cetera.
So first of all, I think the point to say is we do try and get a very strong understandingof, you know, what is the need.
I think the other aspect I would say around, you know, what are we looking for is we tryand understand the characteristics of any particular business or industry.
(08:31):
You know, a good example would be in the last few years, there's been a particular focusfrom clients that are in.
recurring revenue or subscription businesses and the types of skills or capabilitiesaround acquisition, retention, loyalty, customer lifetime value.
That is a specific set of experiences or capabilities.
I think the third aspect that we try and marry up is around uh style.
(08:55):
And that may not be the right word.
I don't mean style of individual, but style of company.
And what type of situation does it find itself in?
Look, when clients come to us,
There's often a very specific need.
It may be because they're in a turnaround.
There's a need for transformation.
They could be a growth play.
It could be an early stage business.
It could be a mature business.
And I think these sort of characteristics of where a company or a client finds itself alsodetermines what the CMO role is going to look like.
(09:24):
There are, course, on any given search, there's a set of, you know, and if you read aposition description or a job specification, they'll talk about experience and
capabilities.
Increasingly, Alan, I really view those as table stakes in the sense of you can actuallytell a lot about an individual probably around experience and capabilities from their
(09:44):
resume if it's well written.
The point I would emphasize that it's not about is, I mean, to me at least, it's not abouteducational credentials.
I when I talk to someone, whether they went to some uh local community college or whetherthey did some MBA at Harvard, I...
Personally, I'll give you, this is a judgment call.
(10:06):
I personally don't really put much value in that whatsoever.
I certainly think by the time that we're engaging with someone, it is much more about theaccomplishments in their career.
It's not about educational credentials.
And finally, I would say about this, what does it take to shine or what does it take tofail or what causes failure in these processes?
(10:27):
I I've sort of come to the view over the years that
It's yes, it's your resume that gets your foot in the door for any particular job or theopportunity.
But it's the chemistry and the culture that gets you the job.
And a lot of feedback we get from from clients, you know, sometimes boils down to whetherwe quote unquote, like a candidate or not.
(10:50):
And what that really is, is a euphemism for fit.
Now that is highly subjective.
It's also very hard, I think sometimes provide
candidates with feedback as to why they may or may not have been successful in a processwhere sometimes it can come down to subjective X factors.
(11:10):
That said, mean, I certainly for marketers, if there is one piece of advice I often give,it's actually around uh brevity.
I do find many marketers like to talk.
mean, it's a great feature.
think of marketers that they're generally very interesting.
In many cases, highly.
extraverted characters.
But I do believe you have to remember, what I think is the ABC of interviewing accuracy,brevity, clarity.
(11:38):
You've got to keep those things in mind.
if you I always tell when I prep candidates, look, if you find yourself going off on afive minute monologue, that's probably not good.
And if it's 10 minutes, you know, you probably bombed the interview already.
I mean, you have to think very carefully.
You've got 45 minutes, maybe an hour.
you have to think carefully about what is the messaging you want to give.
(12:00):
And then finally, I mean, look, I do think you can prepare for interviews.
I the most common form of of of interviewing nowadays is what's referred to as behavioralinterviewing, the sense that you know, what you've done in the past is the best predictor
of what you can do in the future.
behavioral interview without any practice or rehearsal is actually tough.
(12:21):
Because you can find yourself coming up with sometimes just tangential incoherent answersthat don't really
address the question being asked.
And so I do encourage people to think about examples in their career that they want togive soundbites, but focus on what was the situation?
What was the obstacle you faced?
What was the action you took?
What was the result you got?
And make sure you can compress that into 90 seconds, maybe two minutes to avoid going offon this extended monologue where you start, I think, losing the capture of the engagement
(12:51):
of the interviewer.
So there's lots in there.
Alan around how to shine or how to fail.
Look, some of it is subjective, some of it is objective, but a lot of it does come down topreparation and experience.
Yeah, no, I love all of those nuggets.
mean, the ABCs, accuracy, brevity, clarity, great example.
(13:11):
Behavioral interview practice, that it's not something you wanna go in cold with.
Makes perfect sense as well.
And the notion of like chemistry, think you said, chemistry and culture is a lot of timeswhere the decision is being made.
It makes me think about, I've used this with groups that I talk to from time to time, likehow many people around the table actually built a spreadsheet.
(13:33):
when they were selecting their spouse.
And almost, I have had one hand raised in the past.
there's one person out there at least, but most people I know they go, no, like why wouldI do that?
Exactly.
And that's usually how it comes down to making a hiring decision too.
Like the paper, the spreadsheet gets you in the door, but the, to your point, like the fitis where it's at.
(14:00):
So.
Anyway, well, let's talk about the 2025 CMO 10-year report from Spencer Stewart.
It looks like there's a slight increase to 4.3 years tenure in 2024.
Curious as you think about like that increase, like what factories do you think arecontributing to that?
(14:22):
4.3 years number has been somewhat steady, Alan.
I mean, we have seen this now hover between 4.2 to 4.5 years now for a few years now.
And so the question I most often get asked is, know, so is 4.3 a good number or a badnumber?
Is that something marketers should be proud of or scared of?
(14:43):
Which way should they go on that spectrum?
I I would say actually 4.3, there's a number of ways you can look at that.
The nature of the study that we do, we use a data set where we look at every marketingleader in the Fortune 500.
So it's a fairly stable set.
We do it across other functional leaders.
So we actually now have a, for a number of years, we've had a comparison set.
(15:05):
So it's both longitudinal over time, so we have a number of years data and it's sort ofhorizontal in the sense that we can look at the tenure and other characteristics of other
C-suite leaders.
So I'd say there's two ways to break this out.
When you look at just this 4.3 number of CMOs alone, there's actually a more interestingstory when it's broken out by industry.
(15:27):
And so for example, CMOs in the healthcare industry actually have the highest tenure at5.3 years, followed by financial services at 4.8.
Interestingly, and perhaps counterintuitively, and I'm sure we'll get into this, thelowest tenure.
is in consumer industries at about 3.9 years.
(15:49):
It averages out at 4.3.
So that's point number one.
Point number two, though, is when you compare this across other C-suite roles, the averagetenure of any given functional C-suite leader is actually about 4.9 years.
So marketing, chief marketing officer 4.3, look, it's not wildly different from theC-suite average of
(16:12):
of 4.9 and even that 4.9 is actually quite skewed by the chief executive officer.
Just so you know, the average tenure of a chief executive officer of a Fortune 500 companyis 7.4 years.
But we see many other functional leaders, most functional leaders are in this four to fiveyear tenure range.
Yes, it is true that marketing leaders are slightly at the lower end of that spectrum, butI'm sure we'll come on to discuss.
(16:40):
I have now been preaching for a while.
low tenure is not a sign of failure.
I mean, I mean, just to give you the punchline, I mean, the reality is, we've seen we'vegot plenty of data now, many marketing leaders are being promoted into bigger and better
roles.
So in other words, short tenure is not a sense of there's a bunch of CMOs being fired.
It's quite the opposite.
(17:01):
So much of CMOs being promoted and given other opportunities.
So I am at pains to sort of recast this narrative that short tenure
somehow is a bad thing.
It's really not.
Now again, we'll get into the details, but broadly speaking, it's 4.3 years, it's somewhatsteady.
Yes, it's below the C-suite average, but there's actually a lot of differences when youbreak this out by industry.
(17:24):
One quick follow up on that is the difference between the C-suite leaders that you'retalking about and the CEO.
I have to believe there's something to the math there, meaning like is it somewhat afactor of a CEO coming in and deciding to make some changes to his team?
(17:46):
um And that's kind of the connotation or is it the cycle of which um
know, performance of a CEO is evaluated over the performance of uh the C-suite staff.
Well, it's a really great question because I think the next wave of research, we haven'tdone it yet, but I'd love to go there, which is, you know, what is the likelihood or the
(18:06):
propensity, whatever the the right verbal adjective would be for there to be significantturnover in say, the first 12 months of a new CEO?
In other words, is he or she in the CEO role, likely to trigger changes in the C suite?
Because you know, I think it's indoctrinated into
first time or multi-occasional CEO, is you've got a window probably in your first sixmonths to reset your team.
(18:31):
And so I do wonder whether there are some triggers of turnover related to CEOappointments, the length of time they've been in role.
Look, I do think there's an interesting way, anecdotally, when I have discussed this withothers, the role that is actually most likely to turn right after a CEO appointment is
actually the chief communications officer.
(18:51):
That role is actually, I think intuitively the closest to a CEO in terms of I thinkthey're often probably working very closely on writing his or her speeches, trying to
decipher the strategy going through their mind.
It's a very, I think the chief communications officer, for example, is a very personalappointment to a CEO where they want someone probably known to them or trusted to them.
(19:13):
And that is the role anecdotally that I have seen that is most likely to be triggered by aCEO appointment.
But I am curious to see, and I do think this is a function.
that see in other roles that you are more likely to see some turnover in other C-suiteroles in the six or 12 months following a C-suite.
You mentioned the fact that the CMOs that are in these roles think I've got the statright.
(19:35):
I think it's something like two thirds of the CMOs are actually being promoted into moresenior or bigger lateral roles, if you will.
What do you think it is about CMOs or maybe these individuals, group of individuals thatthey possess that make it suitable for these like advancements to be taking place?
So, yes, that's a thoughtful question.
(19:58):
Here's what I say first of all, the number that we have seen when we've tracked theFortune 500 and we tracked exits over the last three years, I we were simply asking
ourselves, what happens to a chief marketing officer when they stop being a chiefmarketing officer?
I what happens?
Is there some CMO graveyard or something they go to or is there some place in heaven theyend up?
It was generally curious around what happens to CMOs when they exit.
(20:21):
And the answer actually, when we dug it and we've looked at now three years of cumulativedata is actually really quite interesting in a positive way.
What we have found is approximately two thirds of exiting chief marketing offices areeither promoted internally or they're going on to a similar or a bigger role at another
company.
(20:42):
So I think, first of all, this is a, it's a good news story.
This is why I'm saying, you know, low tenure is not a bad feature.
And also there are some differences in industry which I'll come on to right now.
I broadly speaking, just to give you last year's data of that, was actually 64 % was theprecise number for last year of that 64%.
(21:03):
23 % were taking a new role within the company.
In other words, they're often being promoted into some sort of general management,president, regional, other functional leadership roles.
23 % keep doing a marketing role but are...
So they're probably taking a CMO role but at another company.
So in other words, they're taking a lateral move and 12 % of them are moving out ofmarketing at a new company.
(21:28):
And this is a case where they're looking every year there is a small percent of CMOs thatare promoted into CEO, which I think is a great news story and comes back to the point or
the question I think you were asking me, which is, know, what skills or experiences domarketing leaders have that allow them or facilitate their onward development?
(21:48):
And this is where I will make some breakouts by industry.
I I think, for example, in consumer and particularly CPG, so consumer products,industries, I mean, if you look at classic companies
the marketing route up is the path into general management and P &L leadership.
in those businesses.
(22:09):
mean, they are overtly designed to be the next generation of business leaders.
So I don't think that we should be surprised that the tenure is lower in consumer becauseI think we're playing out that exact hypothesis that those marketing leaders are being
plucked or identified or being developed for future onward opportunities.
Why?
Because fundamentally, strongly come to believe the closer a marketing leader is toinfluencing revenue.
(22:38):
just simply the more commercial and strategic impact they're going to have on theirbusiness.
I I certainly, you when I'm having private conversation with marketing leaders, I alwaysencourage them, look, the closer you are to having influence over revenue, I think just
the more stable and actually more rewarding I think your role will be.
We have to accept though, that there are some industries where the marketing role is notnecessarily structured to have direct revenue impact.
(23:02):
I do think we need to be honest about that.
I've given an example where in consumer products, I think it is.
But look, if we look in, say, more industrial-based businesses, even some health carebusinesses, look, the honest truth is marketing does not necessarily have a direct
correlation to revenue generation.
I think it plays a significant role in terms of revenue or sales enablement and support.
(23:28):
But there are some industries where the marketing role is simply not as empowered.
or not directly impactful on the P &L or revenue as it is in other industries.
that is somewhat unique, I think, about the marketing role that it does play, I think,different roles in different industries.
That's an overt generalization, Alan, I recognize that.
(23:48):
And I can give you plenty of counter examples in both.
But broadly speaking, I think that is a truism that we see across industries.
Yeah, no, I I would tend to agree with the generalization.
I do think there are some industries, I'm seeing this in financial services in particular,maybe historically was more of a communications, marketing enablement type role or sales
(24:10):
enablement type role.
And I'm seeing more and more strategic push into driving revenue generation.
I would agree if I could build upon that, Alan, I mean, I the two industries to me thatare the most, I think have gone through the most evolution and empowerment of the role
over the last five or 10 years is financial services and healthcare.
I mean, let's be honest, 20 years ago, I think very talented marketing lead.
(24:32):
And well, first of all, definition of financial services, very broad definition coverseverything from real estate, insurance, credit cards, retail banking, investment
management.
mean, there's a financial services are really broad.
definition.
But as you look at some of those subsegments, marketing has become very influential inthose industries or categories.
Let me take insurance, for example.
Let's be honest, 20 or 30 years ago, I don't think the best market is necessarily thoughtof insurance as a destination for their career.
(25:00):
Nowadays, however, I think some of the most sophisticated marketing is actually takingplace in insurance.
If nothing else, they have some of the largest marketing budgets out there.
All of them have been driven, I think, incredible brand.
positionings, whether it's using geckos or characters, they've become long-term, somewhatendearing stories over years.
(25:24):
Accompany that with disruptions in how they go to market in terms of building out directdigital channels and capabilities.
mean, think insurance is a great example of where you see some really very advanced fullfunnel marketing capabilities that wasn't the case 20 or 30 years ago.
I think you could say the same about some aspects of healthcare, healthcare provision inparticular, where a while back, I think marketing was predominantly a marketing
(25:50):
communications role.
Now we are beginning to see some healthcare businesses think of themselves arguably moreakin to hospitality businesses.
To be clear, these are my words I'm going to use now, not from a client or from anindustry, but there's a sense of how do you put heads in beds?
in hospitals, much the same way that hotels or hospitalities think about how do weoptimize our assets and put heads in bed.
(26:16):
So we are seeing some really interesting evolution of business models I think are veryempowering for marketing leaders and provide new career destinations.
Another stat I picked up on was I think it's only 40 % of Fortune 500 marketing leadersthat you looked at hold the CMO title.
Meaning that there's probably many that are holding either like dual functions ormarketing kind of adjacent titles.
(26:40):
How do I think about that and the changing responsibilities?
Yeah, you should.
So look, I think this is part of a broader picture that there's been an enormous evolutionof marketing over the past five to 10 years.
I mean, I know I have spoken and written before about just, you know, the growth, sort ofalmost the smorgasbord that exists of marketing and marketing adjacent titles that have
(27:01):
grown and mushroomed, you like, over last few years, chief growth officers, chief revenueofficers, chief customer officers, chief experience officers.
I mean, they're all fundamentally, I think they have marketing at their heart that therehas been this sort of
clear evolution of the role.
And it has got to the point, as you've just identified that actually half of people whoare doing marketing leadership roles, less than half even have the Chief Marketing Officer
(27:25):
title now.
So, you know, in our study for 2024, it's about 40%.
What we are seeing now, I'd say there's two or three other major categories.
There's what I call the CMO plus roles or CMO plus plus, which is you're right, it's oftenmarketing and another
another responsibility area that may vary by industry.
(27:47):
for example, if you're in retail, could be marketing and merchandising.
For example, I think the most common one we see has been marketing and communications.
That to me is actually a bit of a big deal because we have seen a fragmentation ofmarketing and communications.
Many Fortune 500 companies now will have separate standalone marketing leaders versuscommunications leaders.
They are now quite clear and distinct disciplines, but nonetheless, our data shows thatsome still have that.
(28:13):
that marketing and communications, or we'll see other variants, know, marketing anddigital, marketing and growth, but there is the sense of 8 % have CMO plus roles.
There's a second bucket, which I mentioned, which is this sort of other chief role, chiefcommercial, chief growth, chief experience.
There are this, there's this family of other type of, they are still marketing centricroles at their heart, but we've seen now a wave of those again, they will vary by
(28:41):
business.
And then, you know, there's actually a fairly significant number of folks that have thesenior uh marketing leadership role in their company, but they simply, they just simply
don't have the chief title in them.
They may be an EVP or an SVP of marketing, marketing and sales for various reasons.
Either the role itself isn't commanding the chief title or simply the company chooses notto use chief title.
(29:09):
So it's still clearly the
the most senior marketing role in the business.
But the broader point is now, as I said, only 40%, so less than half of the top marketingpeople actually just have the straightforward Chief Marketing Officer title now.
That is now in the minority, not the majority.
And that has changed.
That's interesting.
Well, something around the neighborhood of 37 % of Fortune 500 CEOs have some element ofmarketing experience.
(29:35):
Yes.
uh And I'm curious, like, what unique perspective do you think that that adds to the CEOrole?
Yeah, so the path to CEO, there's lots of ways you can go.
mean, one of the more common ones, I think the most common one we see will be someonewho's been running a president, general manager of a business unit or region.
They may have stepped into a chief operating officer role as some sort of succession stepand then into then into CEO.
(30:00):
It's still relatively rare to go straight from chief marketing to chief executive officer.
That said, to your point, as we have looked at all the CEOs,
of Fortune 500 companies, our belief is at some point in their career, admittedly, it mayhave been early in their career, but at some point in their career, about 37 % have held
some sort of marketing leadership role or clearly have marketing experience.
(30:24):
Why is that helpful?
I mean, you're asking someone who spends their entire time with marketers, so of course,I'm going to give you a little bit of a biased view as to why I think it's important.
ultimately, when you think around the constituents of the C-suite,
Who ultimately is the voice of the customer?
Is it the Chief Financial Officer?
Not really.
(30:45):
Is it the Chief Information Officer?
I don't think so.
Is it the Chief HR Leader?
Nope.
mean, really, you know, it is the marketing leader is the true customer or consumeradvocate.
They're the voice of the customer.
They will have spent time understanding insights, segmentation, targeting strategies.
They probably understand pricing, promotion, how to incentivize.
(31:07):
action is the true connection, somewhat uniquely.
You could say some sales roles have this, but marketing, think, is at the center,particularly given some of the insights-driven work that really is the voice of the
customer at the C-suite or at the leadership table.
And so I do think that that experience is very helpful.
(31:27):
I would love that number to be higher than 37%, but at least at some point, a full third,just over a third of CEOs
have some personal first-hand direct understanding and leadership of marketing at somepoint in their career.
You can be biased all you want when you talk about marketing experience at the CEO level,because I agree with you.
(31:48):
And I think your perspective, you highlighted that, like, you know, that marketing role isin practice should be the voice of customer where markets are going, kind of that external
looking face, maybe that and the sales function itself, if you have a head of sales.
But like the rest of the roles are really more operational efficiency driven.
(32:11):
streamlining organizations, et cetera.
So I 100 % agree with you.
This has been fascinating.
I always love to get an updated view of what's going on in the tenure space with CMOs andthe data that you guys produce each year.
It's always fascinating conversation.
One of the things we like to do is get to know you even a little bit better.
And one of the questions that I always like to ask, and I've actually asked you thisbefore, so if you have the same answer, that's okay.
(32:36):
But what experience of your past defines or makes up who you are today?
Well, I mean, think, I mean, for me, I feel it's actually really added benefit to havelived and worked extensively in two different continents.
And I do.
think I have found that to be helpful on number of levels.
(32:57):
And I have to say, and I'm actually sad it's becoming a little bit rarer in the sense of Ithink it's becoming increasingly more challenging in someone's life and career.
to move countries, move continents, we all know, visa processes, visa applications.
My general worry is, if I was to put it really bluntly, there's been just a decrease inlabor mobility might be the way, labor geographic mobility might be the way of phrasing
(33:25):
that correctly.
And I feel very fortunate to have a good understanding of the United Kingdom, of Europe,of companies, of cultures, as well as...
as well as the United States, and particularly in this moment when we're recording, whenwe're going through a period of some tariff and trade tension
I I personally think being able to firsthand have that point of view, bring it to the workhere, have some different senses of style, of what makes success, of how people operate in
(33:53):
different countries, continents, and cultures.
That to me, I think has been immensely valuable and I wouldn't want to give that up atall.
And I do think it is actually an aspect of what defines me.
If nothing else, Alan, most obviously, despite living in the United States for 25 years,people tell me I still have a fairly strong British accent.
I've tried doing an American accent.
It sounds like some terrible Texan twang gone wrong.
(34:16):
So I'm just going to stick with the way I am, but I'm very happy.
I love the accent and yes, you still have it.
Not that you need me to remind you, you still do.
But I was recently at a table of colleagues and I loved the fact that I literally was theonly person with an American accent.
I had, I think, three Brits, an Aussie, and honestly, I can't remember where the other onewas from, but it was not from America.
(34:39):
uh so I, one, wish I had a better accent, first and foremost, and two, uh wish I had moreof those experiences you talked about.
Curious if you're starting this all over again, what advice would you give your youngerself?
You know, I thinking about this because I sensed you were probably going to ask me thisquestion.
you know, when I think about what's most valuable to me today that perhaps I didn'tappreciate 20 years ago, and if I was to give my younger self some advice, it's around the
(35:12):
concept of time.
I think as we go through our lives and our career, become, we become busier and busier,and our time becomes more valuable as we go through our career.
Ironically, at start of our career, we may be a little bit resource poorer, but time rich.
And later in life, you know, we're maybe a little bit resource richer, but time poorer.
And so, you what I value now is the ability to have autonomy and direction over my time.
(35:38):
And I try and use my time the way that gives me the most joy and gives me the mostpleasure.
I might look back at myself 20, whatever it is, 25, gosh, dare I say almost 30 years agonow.
And the advice would be
value your time because that is a resource you can't get back.
You will have less of it as you go through your life.
Okay, I hope there's a moment I come and I come and retire but you know your best physicalyears maybe psychological, emotional, your ability to do things, the spirit of adventure
(36:10):
is great as when you're younger.
So I'd simply say to if I was to give wind the clock back, we think more carefully aboutwhat you do with your time.
and make the most of it because it's the resource you will most treasure later in yourlife and you can't get it back.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Either something you're trying to learn more about or you think a topic that marketersneed to be learning more about today.
(36:34):
Well, I mean, the topic that I worry about, do try and better understand is just thisongoing evolution of what on earth is going on with our industry.
I mean, I really do believe it's very hard to be a senior marketing leader these days.
I you are expected to be everything from a brand visionary, a product marketing guruthrough to a data scientist, a marketing technologist, an expert on life cycle marketing.
(37:00):
You're expected to do everything these days.
I mean, it's unbelievable.
It's really hard.
So there's one sense of something I'm trying to keep on top of or better understand isthis ongoing evolution.
Where is this all going?
I'm not going to say AI.
I'm sure everyone else on your show has said AI.
Alan, I'm not going to go there.
I'll leave that for others.
Of course, there's a lot going on there.
What does that mean?
(37:20):
We've recently published some stuff on that topic.
That's obviously going to be a huge feature going forward.
So I don't want to underplay that.
But I think there's other things that have made the job really hard, really difficult thataren't going to go away.
No, I agree and I appreciate someone in your position saying like the marketing role issuper complex and like you mentioned everything from technology to how do I drag growth to
(37:45):
process to like, mean, you literally have to be an expert in almost every aspect of how abusiness runs to be a chief marketing officer today.
That is right.
And it's constantly evolving.
Which is both the fun thing and the terrifying thing all at the same time.
So I agree
I mean, I've sometimes felt that this is over the next five or 10 years, we may be at amoment for marketing leaders of evolution or extinction.
(38:13):
There's a point of view that the traditional marketing role may go away in the next 10years.
I'm sort of on board with that.
mean, and that's why I think we're seeing the evolution of the role around the concept ofa chief growth officer or a chief experience officer.
I do think there are some...
and others who more experienced will comment on this for you, Alan, but there aresignificant elements of the marketing portfolio that are going to be transformed and
(38:36):
automated through AI.
So where exactly are marketing leaders going to add value in the future?
I mean, I do think this is a moment of thinking around evolution or, I mean, extinction isprobably too strong a word, but I'll put it out there because I think it gets people's
attention.
But I do think we're going to see this wave of evolution we've spoken about for the last10 years.
That pace, I do not believe is going to diminish.
(38:57):
If anything, it may accelerate.
And I do think we have to be considerate around what does that mean for marketingleadership in the future and how we even frame what marketing leadership is.
Well, I'm one on the on the other side of the camp that I hope marketing titles andmarketing leaders don't go away and that they're not going to be extinct.
I do think to your point, I think there is a rapid evolution of what it means to be amarketing leader and whether we call them that in the future or whether it's a component
(39:26):
of their job.
I may see that point too, but we'll we'll live to fight another day, Richard.
We And we'll have this debate going forward.
So last question for you.
uh
I'll ask is what do you think is the largest opportunity or threat facing marketers?
Oh, that is an in.
that's a good question.
I will bring it back to the point I made before, which is the biggest opportunity Istrongly feel for marketers is to align themselves with growth, revenue and the CEO
(40:02):
agenda.
think when we see, when we get calls from clients around, gosh, you know, for variousreasons, we need to rethink the marketing leadership role.
The most common reason is a misalignment of agendas between the CEO and the CMO.
So I think there is this number one, the biggest opportunity is around ensuring the agendais aligned.
But part of that is, I to just get beyond that sort of corporate speak, which is, know,where marketers have sometimes gone sideways is they don't speak the language of the CEO
(40:31):
or the board.
I have heard a number of CEOs express frustration that when their chief marketing officeris coming to them during their one-on-one...
They're talking about number of eyeballs or number of impressions.
That I hate to say it, Alan, I don't think CEOs really care that much about that.
They want to know about revenue.
They want to know about margin.
(40:52):
They want to know about profit.
Talk that language.
Talk about how your work translates to tangible outcomes that impact the CEO and the boardof directors and for public companies.
What does that translate to, for example, in terms of earnings per share?
Talk that language.
That's the biggest opportunity.
(41:13):
Align the agenda, talk the language of the team that you want to be around.
I love that.
And Richard, as always, it's so much fun to have you on the show.
Always a little friction where the role's going.
And so we'll keep playing that out over the times we come back, have you come back on theshow when you've got the latest set of data again in the future.
So thank you again.
Thank you for having me.
(41:37):
The views, thoughts and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent theviews, thoughts and opinions of Deloitte.
Material and information presented here is for general information purposes only and doesnot imply endorsement or opposition to any specific company, product, or service.
Hi, it's Alan again.
(41:58):
Marketing Beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast.
It's created and produced by me with post-production support from Sam Robertson.
If you're new to Marketing Beyond, please feel free to write us a review and subscribe onyour favorite listening platform.
I also invite you to explore the other Deloitte digital podcast at deloittedigital.comslash us slash podcast and share the show with your friends and colleagues.
(42:24):
I love hearing from listeners.
can contact me at marketingbeyond at Deloitte.com.
You'll also find complete show notes and links to what's discussed in the podcast today,and you can search our archives.
I'm Alan Hart, and this is Marketing Beyond.
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