Episode 146 - The Incredible Hulk vs. Superman with Logan Crowley - Men of Steel

Episode Transcript
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Case (00:00):
Hey, everyone, this is Case coming in before the show because I have some big news. We have launched the Patreon for Certain POV Media, which is the banner for the shows produced by the Certain POV Network. So these are basically my shows. They're another pass Men of Steel and then the stuff that goes up on the YouTube channel. So if you want to support this show, check out patreon.com certainpovmedia We've got a ton of great content in the works, and we've got some wonderful people to thank who have joined us at the executive producer level. So without further ado, I'd like to thank Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Gregor, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Nancy and Casey Aiken, and Adam Samtur (and Keith Lehtinen). You can join them at the executive producer level.

(00:47):
Or we have all kinds of tiers, including a free one, so please check that out. But now onto the show.

Logan (00:54):
I love this scene where he picks up the Hulk by the ankle. He spins him around so fast, the Hulk turns into, like, the twirl of Thor's hammer, and then he throws him into a ravine full of cactuses.

Case (01:06):
Yes.

Logan (01:07):
Then on the next page, he says, I gotta catch up with the Hulk to make amends before this escalates any further. Brother, you. There is no way for you to make amends for this. You just threw a guy into a cactus hole. He's gonna fight you.

Case (01:22):
Yeah. And we cut to the Hulk and he's, like, pulling cactus pricks or, like, pricks off of his back. And he has another, like, swear bit where he goes. I'm assuming he says, if I ever lay hand, I. If I ever lay eyes on that miserable.

Logan (01:35):
Oh, yeah, it very Ben Grimm this panel. Like.

Case (02:05):
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jm. ike Folson.

Jmike (02:12):
Welcome back, everybody.

Case (02:13):
Welcome back indeed. Because we have a returning guest. We've got Logan Crowley back in the house.

Logan (02:19):
Thank you guys again for having me. I'm really looking forward to talking about this one.

Case (02:24):
Yeah. Yeah. So last time that you were on, were talking about Silver Surfer Superman, which is included in the DC vs Marvel omnibus that came out recently. But today we are doing another story in that omnibus. But this time, we're talking about the Incredible Hulk meets Superman. This is the Incredible Hulk versus Superman.

Logan (02:45):
Yeah, Much more confrontational than that. No, no V here either. We're not. This is not going to be as civil as the. As the Zack Snyder one. This is just a fight.

Case (02:55):
This is not a court case.

Logan (03:01):
I really love Marvel DC crossovers. Even the schlockiest of them have a warm place in my heart. But I feel like this one is a masterpiece.

Case (03:12):
This is a great one. Yeah.

Logan (03:14):
To me, this is the best any intercompany crossover has ever been. I don't think that any other crossover has ever matched the spirit of both of the comics that we're crossing over as well as this does. This really feels like the styles of the writer and the artist kind of blend into the background. And you really feel like these two characters, specific universes are clashing. Like the two disparate comics are just mixing together in a way that you don't see very often.

Case (03:51):
Yeah. And part of that goes into the nature of how they do this crossover. So unlike last time, where were talking about a story where Superman and the Silver Surfer were from two distant creativities and they were crossing into each other, in this scenario, we are presented with a blended universe from the get go that then has the additional level of there is a narrative framing device that is set in the present and then a flashback story set in the past, which is the bulk of the story that we're dealing with. And so the. That past story has this veneer of antiquity. There's this retro quality to it. Even though there's modern conveniences that characters present throughout. There's cell phones and stuff.

(04:34):
It still feels like 60s Marvel, which is a great era of comics and one that I kind of wish Superman went through to a certain degree. Oh, yeah, we're kind of getting that here. Like we're being allowed to have like a full on, like Jack Kirby is like. But 60s Jack Kirby era kind of like version of Superman running around in New Mexico with like the Hulk. Like, it's. It's great.

Logan (04:59):
Which Steve Rood is the pitch perfect artist for this as well.

Case (05:03):
Oh, yeah.

Logan (05:04):
He perfectly. He has a thing that looks like Jack Kirby drew him and a Superman that looks enough like Joe Shuster drew him. And then also gives the whole world an art style that looks like they fit together. You know, it just impeccably done. And a zillion different Easter eggs throughout as well. That had me really close to the beginning. If you look in the background of the shots, you will realize that their first confrontation happens in Otisburg, a little place on the border.

Case (05:38):
Right.

Logan (05:40):
And that I was dying.

Case (05:42):
I caught that when I was reading through. I was like, that's nice. That's a fun.

Logan (05:48):
I Also, interestingly enough, this comic actually plugs a continuity hole in the Hulk's history because the Hulk's transition from changing at night versus changing with a ray to changing when he becomes angry happens off camera due to Stan Lee's poor memory. In Marvel Comics, he ends the Hulk series changing via the ray. And then when he shows up again in Fantastic Four, I can't remember which issue number right now, but it's the one where they meet in the cave. He has. Well, first of all, his name is Bob Banner in the second appearance, but also he now transforms when he gets angry. And that's never really addressed in the comic. But this story, it slots in right after the Metal Master back up entails to astonish.

(06:40):
And the beginning of it, Bruce and Rick, there's not an explanation for it really, but they acknowledge the transition of, oh, you changed when you got angry, unlike changing at night.

Case (06:52):
Right.

Logan (06:52):
And I love that it lets you know exactly where in the Hulk's timeline this story fits in.

Case (06:59):
Yeah, it has very clear points where it fits in. Obviously the Hulk one they address like right after the Metal man story. And with Superman, the flashback occurs roughly. I think it's between issue 4 and 5 of man of Steel. And you can tell that because Lex Luthor has his. Has hair still.

Logan (07:18):
Yes, hair and Boss Hog's outfit in this comic, which was certainly a choice.

Case (07:26):
Well, you know, when in Rome. One thing I should. Should call out, if you have the omnibus, there is really fun extra material at the back where they show either black and whites or in some cases like hand colored versions of the pages with notes. So that confirms, for example, the timeline where the issues fall and just some sort of inspiration for why they drew a scene the way they did and details like that. So it's a really cool thing to check out when you're done actually reading the issues.

Logan (07:57):
That makes me so jealous.

Case (08:00):
There weren't that really. They have pages for the Ron Lim art from Silver Surfer Superman, but they don't really have any like big notes, so it didn't come up earlier. But specifically the, the issues that the. These fall between is called out, which I really appreciate it. It takes me back to Untold Tales of Spider man where like it was consistently like, this takes place between these two issues of Spider Man. This takes place between these two issues of Spider Man. Like, I love when comics are like fitting in like that kind of like continuity stuff.

Logan (08:31):
I was in my local comic shop recently and somebody was talking about someone who used to work there who at the time that he worked there would tell all the customers that DC had said they didn't have continuity anymore. And somebody at the comic shop, they used the metaphor that telling customers that comics didn't have continuity anymore was like the person at the counter of a gas station telling everyone there was water in the gasoline. You know, I think so many writers now think of continuity as a bad word. And it certainly can be used, you know, in Jim Shooter's Iron Fist at times it could be. But I think that it also is such a catalyst for creativity when it's done well. And I think in this comic it is done so well.

Case (09:20):
This is such a great use of it. It kind of reminds me of Superman for all seasons in that it is also being sort of set up as like using the John Byrne man of Steel as a jumping off point to tell a really fun story in between the pages of Superman books where you wouldn't have had that potential if you didn't have that specific rebooted character arc. You know, like if you didn't have this like this tight continuity of the 90s, you couldn't have told a story like that or like this because it benefits from having a specific window that it falls between.

Logan (09:53):
Oh yeah. Well. And I think with this, some people say that the Byrne reboot of Superman was a Marvelization of Superman. And that's a point that can be debated a thousand different ways. But I actually do think that the way that his support structure was set up in a very Marvel age way with his cast really lends into how well this works because it makes the world's of the burned Superman in the 60s Hulk blend so well when the different supporting. There's a scene in this that I absolutely love where Lois Lane dresses kind of provocatively to. To seduce a story out of Rick Jones. And it. And it's working for a second until she gets into where she asks about the Hulk and then immediately, without another word, Rick Jones drives away, just blows her off and leaves.

(10:54):
And it's a moment that a only works because of how well Rick Jones was characterized in the 60s, but also really only works with the Byrne era reboot of Lois. There also is a moment where her and Betty are bonding over having hard nosed general fathers, which is a thing.

Case (11:12):
That was originated with Bernie.

Logan (11:15):
Right. And so whereas, you know, I said in the Silver Surfer episode there were some things where I kind of wished it had happened at a different moment in the characters careers, this I don't think could have more perfect moments, could not have been picked for this crossover than the ones that they did.

Case (11:35):
Yeah. So why don't we get into our breakdown of the story? So it opens with this framing device, and it actually opens with a documentary on the Hulk that Superman comes home to Lois to see her watching. And we get some really, like, artistic shots of, like, them looking at the screen and having, like, visual effects from the screen, like, superimposed on their face like this. There's this, like, swirl effect that. That they're showing that, like, then the panel of Superman and Lois have, like, that same swirl being represented on their face. Like, really fun stuff. There's. And then Superman, like, thinks about his relationship to Bruce Banner. They establish that they have met each other, that they exist in the same world. And then they compare their origins and their similarities, like the fact that they have the dual lives and so forth.

(12:23):
And we get these really nice shots of Krypton exploding and then comparing that with the gamma bomb.

Logan (12:28):
Well, the beautiful moment of both of them are really a rocket. Their origins come down to a rocket and an explosion. But Superman's Roger Stern deserves some kind of comic book medal for this moment where Superman highlights that his origin is an explosion in a rocket going up, in a way, to better things. But the Hulk's origin is a rocket coming down on him, causing the explosion and worse things. It really reminds me of Al Ewing doing a similar thing with the Hulk in the Fantastic four during his immortal Hulk run. Of course, that would be later. So very well. Ewing may have been somewhat inspired by this.

Case (13:12):
Very well possible. And then as Superman thinks more about the Hulk, it turns into this flashback story. And specifically, we pick up from them sort of like setting the stage of the Hulk being on the run and like, being, you know, being this outcast figure in the 60s or incarnation of the character to him hiding in his cave and transforming spontaneously. In a way that surprises Rick Jones when he comes. As you bring up the fact that this is addressing the changing nature of the Hulk that happened off screen.

Logan (13:45):
Oh, yeah. Well, and let me say, too, this scene really highlighted to me because I love the Hulk, but other than immortal Hulk, since 2000, it feels like the Hulk comic has really struggled to find its footing. And reading this issue for this episode, I realized what is. What is missing is Rick Jones is the secret sauce to the Hulk. And he is one of the best parts of this comic. He. He adds so much to bringing you into the Hulk's world and getting some of that. That rich character and contrast out of Hulk and Banner. I think that it's Tough because you can't really de age Rick and he's Damn near a 30 year old man with where the Marvel universe is at now.

(14:33):
But this kid like Rick Jones, that's tied into his origin, I think they really should find some way to get this back into the book because here it is. Just amazing.

Case (14:46):
Yeah, well, I mean you can work with an older Rick Jones having that history with the character like the Peter David run did a really good job with Rick Jones as a supporting character as opposed to necessarily being like such the bedrock. But you know, you can still work him. Well, I don't know. Like, I, I, I, I agree completely that Rick Jones is such a strong part of this story and such a strong part of the Hulk in general. Do we need it to be a DH character or a, you know, a slot in kind of replacement? I don't know. I, I, I'm not sure.

Logan (15:22):
It just, it just giving somebody, you know, the stoicism of the Hulk I think is important, but just giving him somebody to talk to. You mentioned Peter David. I met Peter David at DragonCon a few years ago and I asked him, it was a panel about Multiverse comics. And when we got to the question portion, I asked him, I said, you've had a long career and with the Hulk especially, you made so many changes to that character that stuck and were permanent. And I said, and just made him so much more interesting. And I asked him, I said, are there any that if you had it to do over, you would take back because of how it changed the character? And he said no, because if I say that they'll want the checks back.

(16:07):
I think this actually is probably a pretty good time to mention if people want to look it up. Peter David actually is not in great health right now and there are a series of GoFundMes to support him that any listeners who are interested can track down. I've donated some and if you're in a place where you can give and you're hearing this, please help out a guy who was a great storyteller.

Case (16:28):
That's, I hadn't been following, I had donated a while ago. I'm sad to hear that it's still persisting.

Logan (16:34):
Yeah, I believe at this point he's kind of shoring up for his family, but I would love for him to prove me wrong. Mr. David, if you're listening, please, it would be a one we would love for you to rally.

Case (16:46):
Well, on that note to the story. Oh, sorry about that. A rough thing with the mortality of creators who have meant so much to us.

Logan (17:00):
Indeed.

Jmike (17:00):
Yeah, I didn't have a question about this.

Logan (17:03):
Sure.

Jmike (17:04):
So I'm not a big Hulk person. I've only seen. I think my first big introduction to him was like, Ang Lee back in, like, 2002 or 2003. Well, like, every time I've seen, like, different iterations of Hulk, he comes across as more of like, a bizarro type character with his speech patterns and things. So, like, only recently with like, the. The mcu stuff, as you seen, like, the more cognizant Hulk, where he's like, doing like, full sentences and things now, like, me angry, me smash. Blah, blah. But he's like, full sentences and more Banner ish type things. And I didn't know that was a big thing even back then or whenever this takes place. That was kind of a shock.

Case (17:43):
Well, so this is specifically representing a period where the Hulk was shifting his intelligence. Like, again, going off the behind the scenes. Like. Like, the Hulk was not that successful when he first came out for a whole host of reasons. Part of this was printing issues. Part of this was just not really being clear on, like, what the vibe of the character was when they first created him. And so initially, when the Hulk was created, he was gray and he was actually fairly intelligent. He was just mean. It was much more of a Mr. Hyde kind of situation, as opposed to an, like, a dumb brute kind of thing that shifted over time. But this is still reflecting an earlier writing style where he is a bit more intelligent, Although it is shifting away at this point into being more of the dumb brute.

(18:31):
It's just that the Stanley writing style Never quite went as dumb as he ultimately would be in comics.

Jmike (18:39):
Well, like, because, like, I've seen, like, the, like the. Each ends of the spectrum because you have, like, war, World war Hulk, where he's like, full on, like, I am now, like, the most eloquent person ever. Like, you just straight up talking to mongrel at some points, and then you, like, you have like, me smash.

Logan (18:58):
Well, and I. I think world war Hulk was very much a. One of the things I liked about that was. I think that was very much a throwback to this era of his intelligence, where there is still a clear dividing line between him and Banner. It's not like the Professor Hulk where they've merged, but the Hulk can explain himself and explain his problems and explain his issues. And it's funny, when I was a kid, through a couple of different things of the era, I thought that I really preferred the gray Hulk. Because my two exposures to the gray Hulk were the Peter David Grey Hulk run, where he is talking like this. And then I had the essential Hulk number one, where he's gray on the COVID And then the comics inside are reprinted in black and white.

(19:47):
So I thought he was gray originally for much. He's only gray for one issue. But I thought he. As a kid, I thought he was gray for much longer than he actually was. I thought he was gray for, like, 20 issues. So it created a situation for me as a kid where I thought, oh, the gray Hulk is the smart one. And I just like that better because he can. Because him and Banner become two different characters that are juxtaposed versus the more modern, just kind of werewolf Hulk or the Cookie Monster one that we got some years later.

Case (20:20):
And then, obviously, in movies and so forth, they never really felt comfortable doing so much the Hulk smash me, Banner kind of thing. They might say Hulk smash a little bit. But up until the mcu, they went with more of a guttural, growling kind of Persona, just because that was easier to represent and not feel, like, cartoonish, especially with, like, Ferrigno. Like, if he spoke, that would have been a lot.

Logan (20:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I definitely think within the Ang Lee movie, they just didn't really. I mean, the. The brief time that he talks in that movie, it looks really ropey.

Case (20:54):
Yeah.

Logan (20:54):
I don't really know why. By 2008, when Incredible Hulk came out, they were still afraid of it. You know, Ang Lee and Lord of the Rings were kind of in production around the same time, so I can forgive them for not having access to that technology. But it was always strange to me that by the time we got to the mcu, they didn't feel comfortable mocapping an actor incredible Hulk or the first Avengers movie the same way that they did for Said Gollum.

Case (21:19):
I mean, they did do mocapping for the Ang Lee one because Ang Lee did a lot of the mocapping for the dogfight. I remember watching that special feature.

Logan (21:26):
Oh, yeah, they did for the combat, but not as much for the facial stuff.

Case (21:30):
Yeah. Yeah.

Logan (21:32):
I don't think that system of the dots and the camera helmet that actors lament nowadays, I don't think they were doing that yet, but I'm surprised that they did. You know, they did actually record Ruffalo's face for the Hulk in the first Avengers movie. They just didn't seem to want to have him talk while he was doing that.

Case (21:50):
Right, right. Yeah. It's a question of how believable will some of, like, that dialogue be? And so they tend to, like, play it safe until they've established the character. So now the MCU Hulk has been allowed to be that way. Like with the Planet Hulk version from Ragnarok that was allowed to have that sort of dumb but able to speak Hulk. But they had to warm themselves up to it. And it's just a thing with adaptations, because it's the same reason why they don't do backwards speech for Bizarro, because it's a lot to listen to if you're not ready for it.

Logan (22:34):
And I will say, if you're listening to this and you're not super familiar with the Hulk and you have only. And you're only familiar with that kind of MCU grunting version, I think that this comic actually is a great example of how well a talking Hulk can work, because I think there's a lot of moments this book gets inside of his head and shows how he feels about Banner, but also how what the Hulk is feeling really is just what Banner is feeling turned up that you wouldn't be able to get the same way if he didn't speak.

Case (23:07):
Yeah, yeah. It's again, it's a really solid story, One that picks up with the Hulk fleeing after having a weird nightmare and waking up and just going for a romp. And meanwhile, Superman in his guys as Clark Kent, is interviewing some a. A scientist with, like, a seismologist studying, like, seismographic data and, you know, basically checking the Richter scale and is alerted to, like, this. This weird abnormal, like, giant thuds. So Superman goes to investigate, and you know what those giant thuds are? The Hulk.

Logan (23:44):
Oh, yeah. Well, the way that they build. And then the last one that I guess is closest to the seismologist office causes the machine to explode and Superman. And Clark Kent has to put himself between the scientist and the machine to keep him from being injured. And I am sure looking at the detail on this scientist's face, this is somebody in the Marvel office. I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

Case (24:09):
Oh, yeah. The way he's drawn, it certainly feels like there is a person that.

Logan (24:13):
It's based on the next page, too, where we. We catch back up with the Hulk on his rampage. And all he is, you know, he's smashing a picnic table and stuff. But really what he is doing is he is eating all the food off a grill at a barbecue he has invaded is amazing. Yeah.

Case (24:32):
We get this great shot of him just, like, leaping down to this barbecue, shouting, food.

Logan (24:39):
And an example of a great throwback to the kind of humor that you saw in the Marvel age is the Hulk just walks up to the grill and says, hungry. And the guy who is manning it as he's fleeing goes, partner, it's all yours. And another one says, oh, lordy, what if that one don't fill him up? I mean, that is. That's Stan Lee to the bone.

Case (24:59):
Yeah. And then Superman shows up, and the Hulk is just like. Has a chicken bone sticking out of his mouth where he's like, who are you supposed to be?

Jmike (25:08):
Oh.

Logan (25:08):
And that. That panel is. If there are many pages of this comic book I would love to have blown up in a frame on my wall. But this one of the Hulk of Superman is standing up on a rock looking very 1940s Joe Shuster cover Superman. Hulk has got the bone hanging out of his mouth. And in the background, the people from the cookout wearing their aprons and chef's hats and stuff, are just cheering like they're at a baseball game that Superman has arrived.

Case (25:39):
It's a great shot.

Logan (25:41):
I love the line, too, where the Hulk says, so you're the big shot from back east, huh? And Superman says, well, I wouldn't say that. And Hulk says, neither would I, as he punches him in the mouth.

Jmike (25:52):
This had some great. Some great panels in it, too.

Case (25:54):
Yeah. Again, like, getting this, like, Kirby aesthetic of the fights is such a challenge, but they. They nail it in this issue.

Logan (26:02):
Like Steve Roode is. He's a master. His. His world's finest miniseries. I can't remember who's the writer on.

Case (26:10):
That, but I think that was Gibbons.

Logan (26:14):
Yeah, you're right. It's Dan Gibbons. But that. That crossover is also just fantastic. But it really, like I said, it really feels like Joe Shuster's Superman is fighting Jack Kirby's the Hulk. And then just the artist just smoothed out enough that it doesn't. That it doesn't look like a collage. You know, it. It's a masterpiece.

Case (26:37):
Yeah. So Superman engages with a Hulk, but actually gets, like, batted around a bit enough so that after being knocked through a building where he says, hurricanes have hit me less hard than that, the Hulk flings them into the atmosphere.

Logan (26:50):
And the way that this is. This is the way this is said with this shown with the three panels of Superman going up, clearly not under his own power. First with the clouds in the background, then with the night sky, and then in the last one, you see the sun and comet trails and Kirby crackle. And.

Jmike (27:10):
Yeah, like he said, I'm in Deep space. And I was like, oh, that's a cool shot.

Logan (27:14):
Yeah.

Case (27:14):
And he says, wow. Not only is he big, he's fast.

Logan (27:18):
And one of the things I love about this is in so many crossovers, especially crossovers with Superman, they find some MacGuffin or gimmick to limit Superman's power level. And so you're left with this kind of like. Well, they crossed over, but I didn't really see them crossover in this comic because the level of these characters are so powerful, they don't feel the need to do that. Both of these characters are just fully on display, you know, getting knocked into orbit and then flying back, you know?

Case (27:52):
Yeah. I mean, like, does Superman feel like he's at the peak of his power? No, it feels, you know, like the burn era Superman in terms of his power set. But he's definitely not being nervous from the Barn era Superman, like, it's. It doesn't feel like a weaker version than that. It's just. It's a reminder that the Hulk is really strong and fast enough that Superman has to deal with him being pretty fast. Oh, yeah.

Logan (28:15):
I wonder. This is after the Doomsday fight. I'm impressed at that. There's not really any. There's not really any panels, a thing, any Doomsday artwork in any way. A lot of other times, post Death of Superman, if Superman ends up fighting a big brute like this, you'll see an homage or a rip, you know, where you see it a lot with Mongol in, like, the recent Bendis era and stuff, where they're clearly drawing Mongol in poses that Doomsday was in. There's not much of that in this. It really feels very original in that way. I don't think Rude was really tracing over anybody else's art here. He's pulling from styles, but he's not really pulling directly from images.

Case (29:01):
Yeah, it certainly has its own sort of, like, choreography to it. But anyway, so Superman returns to the site where he was fighting the Hulk and the Hulk has now escaped. And he reflects that with the Hulk's speed, that there makes no sense for him to try to even begin to follow him, because he could have gone anywhere that fast. So he goes back to work as Clark Kent and starts researching the Hulk, which Lois Lane sees. And because this is John Byrne era, Man of Steel Lois Lane, she decides to one up him because she is still mad at him for scooping her on Superman.

Jmike (29:34):
I missed this dynamic they had all the time because we don't really get that anymore. And the constantly, like, it Was like that in the Flasher comic too, where they were constantly one upping them, one upping each other. Yeah, it was always a game is he would get the best scoop first.

Case (29:48):
Well, so Lois pitches a story about the Hulk, so she gets assigned to it. And then so Clark is then furious about it, but he's able to pitch like a. A side story to. I don't know actually what the. What the proper journalistic term for it is, but it's a story, a related story, but not the actual cover story on the is seismology or seismographic, like studies beat. And the hook is that he'll talk to Dr. Banner and that will be sort of interesting enough. And it connects it to the Hulk story that Lois is covering, but keeps them on. On separate stories. So Lois goes into investigating the Hulk and she keeps finding story after story, like person she interviews after person that she interviews. It all comes back to Rick Jones.

Logan (30:32):
And I love too that all of these vignettes as she's going through the chains of talking to people, she's basically walking. She's following back the first six issues of the Hulk before his initial series was canceled. Which again, really tells you where this slots in is. This is right after it's canceled at issue six. And if there had been an issue seven, Superman would have been in it. Maybe because that's the moment in the Hulk's life this is happening.

Case (31:04):
So Lois is finding out about Rick Jones. And meanwhile we cut to Rick Jones and he draws the attention of the Hulk and then slingshots in anti Hulk pill into his mouth.

Logan (31:18):
Absolute nerves of steel. If a Green Lantern ring. People always say that if a Green Lantern ring flew to the Marvel universe, it would go to Daredevil. And I think if you read back in the original 60s stuff in the Hulk and then in the early Avengers and then in the Captain Marvel run, I think there is a strong argument that if a Green Lantern ring came to the Marvel universe, it would go to Rick Jones. And if it didn't, he would definitely end up following around whoever it did.

Case (31:44):
Go to for like 30 issues. What's. What's the Power Force when. When Rick becomes able to like summon, you know, from the Kree Scroll War and everything.

Logan (31:55):
Oh, the very unfortunately named Nega band.

Case (31:58):
No, not the Nega bands.

Logan (31:59):
The.

Case (31:59):
The. When they like unlock Rick's potentials and he's able to like summon heroes from the past and like that like empowered form that he has.

Logan (32:08):
Oh, I don't know.

Case (32:09):
I forget what it's Called, but like, that is pretty equivalent to a Green Lantern ring in a lot of ways.

Logan (32:15):
Oh, for sure.

Jmike (32:17):
Someone unlock his potential.

Logan (32:19):
Well, you know, a lot of that early. A lot of that. I'm blanking on the artist's name right now, but a lot of that early Gil Kane. Oh, yeah, Captain Marvel stuff. When Rick Jones first got combined with him, you can really tell that somebody at the Marvel office said, if we're going to call this guy Captain Marvel, make him Captain Marvel. Because suddenly it's a kid who bangs these bands together and switches places with an adult flying strong man. And actually for several issues, they are fighting an evil scientist named Dr. Savannah. And that is wild to read back.

Case (32:55):
Yeah, I. I mean, like, it was shameless in that it was supposed to be. Like, everyone knew that what they were doing was to make it more Captain Marvel, but at the same time, like, everyone also was like, yeah, I'm here for it. Like, oh, yeah.

Logan (33:09):
Well, it's some of the best art of the late 60s, early 70s marvel.

Case (33:13):
And we just need to emphasize Rick Jones is just a great character in every version that he's appeared in. I would love a Rick Jones ongoing series where it was just about a guy who just knew everything about the Marvel universe being in the Marvel universe. But back when he was a teenager, he had nerves of steel and did what felt like a Rick and Morty style. Like Morty being traumatized by how many times he's had to deal with a drunken, blacked out Rick. Where it's like, I used. I used your holographic projector to like lure the Hulk in and then I slingshotted a pill down his throat. Like, oh, geez, Hulk.

Logan (33:47):
I. There even. There's a moment in here, one part that is very out of era is I'm pretty sure that they. They block it with squiggles, but I'm pretty sure the Hulk drops an F bomb in here as he goes some mirage. Which also feels very Rick and Morty.

Case (34:03):
That's right. I saw that. Yeah. Again, like, that's much more the gray Hulk. Like, still kind of smart, still kind of. Kind of a prick.

Logan (34:15):
Yeah.

Case (34:16):
But they head into town because. Or rather they head back to base because Dr. Banner is needed and Rick has a change of clothes for him in the backseat of his car. This souped up hot rod, which used to be such like a part of the Rick Jones Persona. I love that he also has like his hideo league and everything like this. It's such a perfect. Like, this is the 60s Rick Jones. But there's little details that are of the modern era.

Logan (34:41):
Well, and little things too that I'm not sure. I looked in the front and didn't see what year this was actually public. Oh, 1999. So you can tell that stuff in. This is very pre911 because Rick Jones can drive a hot rod up to one of the most closely guarded military bases in the country and drop Banner off and isn't detained or anything like it. It was like he just like you know, just walk on in, he's got a card.

Case (35:12):
True story. One time I was driving so near where my office is an NSA headquarters and I one time was driving a rental car back to an Enterprise which was the next exit after the NSA headquarters and I accidentally got off at the NSA one and oh you, you crazy person. I, I pull up and I'm like, I legitimately got off on the wrong. Like yeah, the like check in toll plaza thing. And I'm like, I legitimately like just got off on the wrong. Please let me just like circle around and go away. They're like, unfortunately you actually have to like pull over here. And I had to be detained and like they had to like search the entire vehicle.

Logan (35:49):
Oh yeah, we. I'm only about an hour and a half north of Dobbins Air Force Base here in Georgia. And if you learned the hard way, if gate steel pylons come up behind your car, but. And there's ones in front of your car that go down if you're supposed to be there, but if they don't know who you are, the ones come up behind you and the ones in front of you stay up until they get to come do all that stuff. You just get to have your car in a cage until the government comes and talks to you.

Case (36:20):
Yep. So this is the era where that wasn't quite that big of a deal yet. Rick is able to drop off Banner who has a meeting with Clark, Kentucky. Meanwhile, General Ross comes in and yells at everyone because he's a prick and mentions that there is a corporate VIP here. And that's when we get the Lex Luthor just dressed as Boss Hog scene with Betty Ross on his arm.

Logan (36:45):
Oh, it's just amazing in the. The orange hair and the way it curls up at the side. You know, it just perfectly tells you what era this is showing up in. You know what I like about this too though is one of the wonderful things about those first six issues of the Hulk is there are so many shades of gray in those first six issues that you didn't see in comics of that era, you didn't see at all five or six years before that. And I think they highlight that in this series of the Hulk is the good guy, but he's not that good. You know, he'll steal your barbecue. Likewise, throughout this comic, Thunderbolt Ross is the bad guy, but he's not that bad. And they make it clear in this first scene and throughout the book, he hates Lex Luthor's guts.

(37:34):
And as much as he's working against Hulk and Superman throughout this comic, he also, anytime Lex Luthor is like, let's work together. General Ross is like, no, I hate you.

Case (37:47):
Yeah, it's again, like, it's wild. The moral complexities of the characters. It's fun that we get to have those shades of craze with these characters. Like General Ross is the bad guy and is. Is a prick, but he's not Lex Luthor level of bad. And, and we keep seeing that where it's like, yeah, he's a problem, but he is also on the side of the US Military. They're not allowed to be that bad. Like, they can't be that evil. It's just the Hulk is misunderstood and so his adversary has to misunderstand him. You know, it's just a scenario of trying to have a character who isn't the worst thing in the world, even if he is supposed to be the antagonist.

Logan (38:29):
Also highlighting, you know, some of the problems with a military industrial complex style system of the end of this page where Luther is introduced. Ross literally is holding his face in his hand, face palming. And he goes, blasted industrialists. Always trying to waltz off with my scientists. If he didn't have clearance, you know, his hands are tied because this guy's rich and sells guns.

Case (38:54):
Which is exactly what we expect to see from Alex Luthor right there. Yeah, yeah.

Logan (39:02):
The next page, though, is my favorite scene in the whole comic.

Case (39:05):
Yeah. So here we cut to a drive in that Rick Jones is hanging out with his posse of friends and so forth. And then all of a sudden, this extremely provocatively dressed lady shows up and starts asking him questions.

Logan (39:17):
And it is, it's of course, Lois Lane attempting to very professionally honeypot information out of this. What do you figure? Sixteen, seventeen year old boy? And it goes. And you would expect it to work fine. And it does. Until she says the word Hulk. And when she says the word Hulk, Rick Jones shows again the incredible willpower that I think would influence a Green Lantern ring. As without much of a word, he just drives away as fast as he can and leaves her standing there.

Case (39:52):
Yep. And then the camera kind of like pans over and we see that Superman's there getting an egg cream.

Logan (39:58):
Oh, no.

Case (39:58):
Pardon me. A root beer float.

Logan (39:59):
Oh, with root beer float. With extra ice cream.

Jmike (40:05):
Now this, like the. The. The. This. The. The panel after that is my favorite scene. This whole thing where he's like, Lois and Clark are Lois and Superman outside talking, and the girls are inside freaking out on the phone because Superman's there.

Logan (40:20):
And this is. You know, I don't. I. I like man of Steel. Don't get. I'm not gonna be as. I'm not gonna be as much of a Snyder hater as it sounds like I am. But. But moments like this are what I was really missing from the last couple swings at Superman where, you know, he orders the ice cream, they tell him it's on the house. Superman, they're excited to see him. You know, it just. It's a nice happy moment. That shows you that. Not. That shows you not only how good it feels for people to be around Superman, but also it shows you the juxtaposition between him and the Hulk.

Case (40:54):
Yeah.

Logan (40:54):
You know, whereas everybody at the barbecues fleeing in terror, they could not be happier to have Superman drinking a root beer float at their establishment.

Case (41:04):
We also get really nice Lois and Superman play. He says, I bumped into Clark Kent to set up that Clark Kent's around and to keep the whole love triangle, secret identity play happening here. Really fun dynamics to make it feel like. Oh, and then also brings up that Lex Luthor is around so that everyone from Metropolis is there. Right. I think she says it at one point. It's like, did everyone follow me here?

Logan (41:33):
Yeah. And I. Maybe it's just because this was 99, but, boy, this low. This page specifically, all of this stuff just screams Terry Hatcher's Lois Lane from Lois and Clark.

Case (41:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that. But that makes a lot of sense. Like, that is the most recent live action Lois at this point. And, yeah, she's definitely got that look.

Logan (41:55):
Fortunately, this Superman doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to Dean Cain.

Jmike (42:01):
I didn't really think about the Terry Hatcher thing. Now I kind of see it.

Case (42:05):
So Superman zooms off and we get a very Jack Kirby esque military base shot with Superman flying over it.

Logan (42:12):
Oh, I love it.

Case (42:13):
And he says that he can't X ray in to see the most secret stuff. And that's where we cut inside and we See this gamma gun?

Logan (42:22):
Yeah. Which is. Which is the Jack Kirbyest thing you've ever seen. And I do believe. I think the. I'm remembering this very vaguely, but in the second or third issue of the Hulk, he fights a race of alien toad men. And I believe that's where this gamma gun is pulled from. I think this is a. This is an actual device that's used to run.

Case (42:46):
Yeah, they actually call that out specifically in the issue. And you use this to repulse the invasion of the alien Toadman is exactly the line.

Logan (42:54):
Oh, well, I shouldn't read that now, but I guess that's a. I guess that's another thing. Spoilers if you haven't read this, but this gun will ultimately be smashed. And I guess this is somebody else answering. Like, hey, if Bruce Banner invented a laser that can blow up a whole. That can at least threaten to blow up a whole fleet of alien toad men, where did it go? And why didn't we ever use it on the scrolls or the badoon, you know? And the answer is, it, like everything else that's near the Hulk for a solid hour, it was trashed.

Case (43:31):
Anyway, so Banner gets a call from Rick, though, that tell. To tell him that someone's, like, snooping around about the Hulk. And so he's rushing out and bumps into Clark. And I do like that. Like, he bumps into Clark. And isn't that, like, their personalities are both, like, mild enough that, like, no one. There's no tension. So he doesn't. Like, there's no even threat of him getting angry in this moment, which is nice. Like, it's a very de. Escalated situation.

Logan (43:57):
The Clark Kent on this page, too, is so Max Fleischer Studios. Like, with the. With the clumsiness. And I love them both. They're both putting their glasses back on like. Like two velmas collided, you know?

Case (44:12):
Then we find out that while Luthor was in the. In the base, he actually had his guy Happerson, who is like, a figure in like, the. The man of Steel, run, like, taking photos of everything around so that they could get like. Like spy photos of. Of everything. Which is, like, cool, I guess. I mean, industrial secrets and all that.

Logan (44:38):
I like these headshots that Lex Luthor just keeps around of everyone he's dealing with. I guess he was worried he would forget what Superman or the Hulk looked like at a moment's notice. Give me my eight by tens.

Case (44:56):
So Kent and Banner talk for a little bit, neither of them being aware of each other's secret identity. And then Banner Starts to have a spasm where he starts to turn into the Hulk, but keeps it under control with medicine, but cleanses the migraine and asked to be alone. And Clark, being mild mannered, lets him and heads out.

Logan (45:17):
Which I'd like to say as a guy with a severe muscular disorder, if you've ever been in the same place as me for a few minutes, you saw me say I had a muscle spasm and then leave the room. I also turned into the Hulk. I definitely wasn't laying somewhere holding my tummy in the fetal position. I was big, green, cool monster as well, just like he is.

Case (45:40):
So we have Luthor watching footage of, like, scenes of the Hulk in action. Meanwhile, he's being very weirdly flirty with Betty ROSS because this is 80s Lex Luthor, who is kind of a. Kind of a Trump. Kind of a trump.

Logan (45:57):
Oh, kind of that. That Venn diagram is barely oblong, so.

Case (46:06):
Much so that Lois Lane, who is observing them watching the stuff because I guess they're watching it on like. Like it's an outdoor screening. Lois Lane, who's using binoculars to observe this whole situation is like, I should probably warn Betty Ross about Lex Luthor being not a good person. Yeah. Being a creep.

Logan (46:26):
You know what's interesting about the Burn stuff is, and you correct me if I'm wrong on this because it's been a while since I read through it, but they're actually very clear in man of Steel that she has never been romantically involved with Lex. Lex has tried to get her to be, but at some point, I guess because of the Lois and Clark show maybe or something, it seems like a lot of the other writers forgot that she hadn't been. And in this issue and a lot of other issues like it, you see Lois having lines like, I know too well, or I should interview Betty Ross to warn her away from Lucy. If nothing else, I know how easy it is to be taken in by his charm. And while I do love this comic, Barley wants to go.

(47:13):
She wasn't even in Minnesotiel.

Case (47:17):
She gets talked into wearing a dress by him and changes her tomb when she finds out that it was a gift as opposed to a loner. And that's. I wouldn't be surprised if he had done similar stuff to her before. And that's when she. Like, I don't think that this indicates that they actually had a romantic thing of any kind, but certainly she could have been in a situation that she felt uncomfortable. And if she hadn't been, Lois Slain may not have gotten out of unscathed.

Logan (47:47):
Absolutely. Well, and I think if you read a lot of Betty Ross from this time, she is victimized a lot in the Hulk. She is so naive and innocent and young and eager to please the brash, headstrong men around her that she gets put in a lot of situations where she is hurt because of the powerful personalities of the Hulk and her dad and stuff, and Glenn Talbot and stuff like that. So I. I think that is one aspect where this is a fantastic callback to who Betty was at the time and the difference between her and.

Case (48:22):
Lois, which we get a nice scene of them talking and sort of comparing. Like, we brought up the fact that they both have general fathers, like, which is really interesting. And specifically here, like, how well do they know each other? Because there's only so many generals.

Logan (48:36):
Yeah, well, that's a comic book thing of, like. And me and my dad actually were talking about that not that long ago about. It's interesting how there seems to be. In the comic book military, there are infinite generals and Captains. There's about 15 Sergeants, and you've never seen a lieutenant or a corporal in your life. There's not a lieutenant or a corporal anywhere in a Marvel or DC comic. Yeah, like, they're all captains generals or privates.

Case (49:11):
There was. I think it was Captain Future. It was one of the Nidor characters that they adapted in Tom Strong, where posthumously, he was promoted from captain to colonel. And then when he was, like, inevitably revived, he was like, what's going on? And it's like, oh, Colonel. It's like, what are you talking about?

Logan (49:28):
That's awesome.

Case (49:29):
Anyway, so Betty and Lois, however, head off, and we're having this whole comparison with each other, and then they apparently get attacked by the Hulk. But we know that there. This is a decoy plan that Luthor and Happerson were discussing beforehand.

Logan (49:43):
Well, especially because this Hulk rides up to them in a tornado, like, he's Taz.

Case (49:53):
God. Can you imagine if Hulk speak was like that?

Logan (49:59):
That is basically what I hear in the first Avengers movie. Just that for two hours. And then. Puny God.

Case (50:07):
So we cut back to a little bit more of Banner and Kent having conversations and sort of getting into, like, in. In very, like, layered metaphors that they both are reflecting on their respective secret identities as they kind of discuss things. And then we hear about the whole, like, Banner, or rather the whole hulknap Betty Ross thing. And they both rush off because they both are going to.

Logan (50:33):
And I love this scene where they're talking right before they rush off. Too, because it highlights something that I had never thought about before in the Marvel universe, which is just, Clark Kent is such a good guy that Bruce Banner talks to him for a minute, and literally, if they don't get interrupted, he's about to tell him that he's the Hulk. And it just highlighted to me that if the original Avengers. Because the first lineup doesn't have Captain America, so it's the Hulk, Hank Pym, Thor, and Iron Man. And then by issue two, they've completely unraveled.

Case (51:07):
Wait, wait. And Janet Van Dyne.

Logan (51:08):
And Janet Van Dyne, I apologize. But by the time you get to issue two, it is completely unraveled and the Hulk has stomped off. And then he and Namor are the villains of issue three. And this scene just highlighted for me that if the original Avengers weren't such assholes, how different things could have been. Because when the Hulk starts acting irate, Tony Stark and Thor especially cannot wait to just start hitting him. You know, and if they had just taken a minute to talk to him, how. How different things could have been, it.

Case (51:42):
Would have been like the MCU where they actually stayed together for a while.

Logan (51:46):
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But it highlights what's so great about Superman. And, you know, people talk all the time about, you know. Well, the DC universe seems like such a more polished and friendly place. And I really think a lot of that is just because they have a Superman, you know, in the same situation where Thor would have already gone on a bonking rampage three. Three pages ago. Clark Kent will talk to you over a cup of coffee.

Case (52:15):
Yeah, yeah. Like, the characterization here in this issue is really good.

Jmike (52:19):
Spot on.

Case (52:20):
Yeah. So Banner, upset about the whole situation with being framed for a thing that he's not doing, and also his. His girlfriend being kidnapped by this thing, Hulks out and engages with this decoy, which turns out to be a robot. And it's not even supposed to be a robot that's like that good of a robot. Like, it's. It's convincing for the. The lay person, but it's not supposed to stand up to the Hulk in a fight. In fact, it's supposed to be so beaten up that by the time Superman arrives just a little bit after the Hulk, that it's so broken up that, like, it isn't obvious that the Hulk was fighting. Like, they don't want Superman to come across the Hulk fighting the Hulk. They want Superman just to come across the Hulk towering over Betty Ross, which is what happens.

(53:04):
So Superman arrives and doesn't see the parts of the Robot anymore. And thus charges right at the Hulk and hits him as hard as he can.

Logan (53:12):
And two. Two scenes that I love here are a. When the Hulk. The Hulk transforms in the passenger seat of Rick Jones's hot rod, and when he jumps out, it blows out the tire on the side that he leapt out at. And Rick Jones at first screams, hulk. And then he goes, oh, man, that was a new tire.

Case (53:31):
Right.

Logan (53:32):
Which is hilarious. But the second scene that I love, when they actually. You see, the difference in that budget is not always a good thing, because this is the second time someone has lured the Hulk in with a decoy Hulk in this issue. Bruce Banner, who is on a budget, was able to do it with a lens and a hologram and basically finished the ordeal with all of the equipment that he started it with.

Case (53:56):
Fine.

Logan (53:57):
Lex Luthor, who has an infinite budget, uses a robot that his co worker says cost millions and is smashed to pieces. But he doesn't care because money's no object for him.

Case (54:11):
Yeah, yeah, exactly like it. The. Rick Jones was able to do this in a cave with a box of scraps. Was. Was able to. To do this whole thing. And like you said, like, everything's intact. Everything's fine. He's not just, like, blowing money away because it actually, like, the equipment matters. Also, he put himself at risk, whereas, like, Lex Luthor is in no way putting himself at risk in the situation.

Logan (54:35):
Not even close. I love the detail here of Steve Rood's art, though, when the Hulk smashes this robot Hulk, and you see the mechanical spine of the robot just, like, coiling out of its body as it's hit. Because it's hit so hard that this. This thing is just like a spring now.

Case (54:54):
Yeah. I really love the, like, the metal inner mouth of the Hulk, like, the robot head that's, like, flying off. It has this, like, this, like. I can't describe it any other way than, like, a robot mouth.

Logan (55:06):
Oh, and that is so Jack Kirby.

Case (55:08):
Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean.

Logan (55:10):
Machine man had that mouth, and the Manhunters had that mouth, you know, like it. Or the original Manhunter that Kirby created. You know, it just. It perfectly. Again, perfectly captures the spirit of what they're going for. Individual panels of this are so much prettier than they need to be. Like, the first panel on the next page of just Superman flying in is so good just to be Superman flying in. You know, it could have been anything, and it. But, you know, Steve Rude doesn't go halfway on anything.

Case (55:47):
Yeah. And then we get Superman, like, Just laying into the Hulk as much as he can. And then the second he goes to. He gets the Hulk clear of the fight. He goes to check on. On Betty Ross and immediately realizes that he's been duped. Because there's the robot part. Yep.

Logan (56:02):
I love. I love this scene where he picks up the Hulk by the ankle, he spins him around so fast, the Hulk turns into, like, the twirl of Thor's hammer. And then he throws him into a ravine full of cactuses.

Case (56:15):
Yes.

Logan (56:15):
Then on the next page, he says, I gotta catch up with the Hulk to make amends before this escalates any further. Brother, you. There is no way for you to make amends for this. You just threw a guy into a cactus hole. He's gonna fight you.

Case (56:31):
Yeah. And we got to the Hulk and he's like, pulling cactus pricks or, like, pricks off of his back. And he has another, like, swear bit where. Because I'm assuming he says, if I ever lay hand I. If I ever lay eyes on that miserable.

Logan (56:44):
Oh, yeah, it very Ben Grimm this panel.

Case (56:47):
Yes. And then when Superman's flying in, the Hulk takes all these, like, cactus spines and blows them at him.

Logan (56:54):
Oh, yeah.

Case (56:56):
Which is probably a shot that looks like a little bit of a depowered Superman, but it doesn't really matter. Like, feels very 60s. Like, Hulk fight well.

Logan (57:04):
And I don't even looking at the balloon, you know, there's no ugh or anything. I think Superman. I don't think this hurts Superman at all. I think he's trying to talk. He's like, hulk, we've been set up. Let's talk truce. I'll show you a truce. And then we cut to the soldier some, you know, however far away in the next panel. And they go, thunder, sir. Because they think it's a storm, right? Sound of them hitting and. God, this is one of the best drawn fights in comics ever.

Case (57:32):
Yeah, it's a really good fight is what I was about to say. We just get wonderful shots of them. And we get wonderful shots of the military firing on both of them. It's like, aren't we gonna hit Superman? He's supposed to be bulletproof, isn't he?

Logan (57:42):
Yeah, yeah, the. That shade of gray and Thunderbolt Ross's morality I was talking about earlier shows up here with, like, what if we missile Superman? It'll be all right.

Case (57:53):
Yeah.

Logan (57:56):
And then they fall onto a truck of missiles, Right?

Case (58:00):
And the Hulk is just chucking missiles at Superman. Again, very Kirby esque looking shots. Like Superman like ducking between all those missiles, like, feels like. Feels like something out of Fantastic Four.

Logan (58:12):
I like the line, too, of, good thing none of these are heat seekers, right? And just the Hulk, he's laying under a pile of missiles with his feet sticking out. And the balloon just says, missiles. I hate missiles.

Case (58:26):
So Luthor tries to use this as an excuse to get access to the gamma gun. So he goes to General Ross. Meanwhile, the fight is continuing, and we get Luthor and Happerson trying to use the gamma gun on the Hulk. But they don't do it, right?

Logan (58:44):
Yeah, no, and this is what I was talking about earlier with General Ross. You know, he follows them the whole way, being like, stop, don't do this. You don't know how to calibrate it. You know, he spends the whole time. Finally goes, this weapon costs billions. Luther. Like, he just. Clearly, there's no part of this where he's like, lex Luthor is supposed to be pretty smart. This will be fine. He just hates his guts. He hates him, like, 80% as much as he hates the Hulk.

Case (59:12):
But so it turns out the gamma gun will kill everything within 500 miles. And so we get a moment, which is truly incredible, where the Hulk gets fastball special by Superman.

Logan (59:23):
Oh, yeah. It's just beautiful. It does beg the question at this point, though, of Bruce Banner is like, oh, I'm just this nerdy scientist. I just want to be left alone. Well, hey, man, how come everything you kill, how come everything you invent is like a weapon? Is like the worst weapon of mass destruction there's ever been? Like, this guy has never made an egg timer in his life. It just. It's just bombs and guns that are actually bombs and bombs that turn people into monsters and monsters that are bombs.

Case (59:56):
Yep. And the occasional anti monster gun, but that could be used to turn someone into a monster or possibly explode and be a bomb.

Logan (01:00:04):
And be a bomb. Yeah, I want a writer to bring that up. I want him to. Somebody locks Bruce Banner in a. Like, a shack where his powers are turned off, and they're like, I don't know. And they come back and they're like, he's just going to be his geeky self. What could he do? And while he's in there, he's MacGyvered a bomb. I can make a bomb out of anything.

Case (01:00:24):
I don't understand. There wasn't any radioactive elements in it.

Logan (01:00:27):
There's atoms everywhere.

Case (01:00:32):
Anyway, so the Hulk destroys the gamma gun, everyone tries to rush off, and Superman sort of catches Luthor, who isn't necessarily going to get in trouble because he's a rich industrialist. But, but at least like, get, you know, gets a stern talking to from Superman. Meanwhile, Banner has gotten away. The Hulk is lost in the explosion. And, you know, we just end up with another situation of Banner being picked up by Rick Jones. The Hulk robot is revealed, clearing the Hulk's name once again. And the whole situation just seems like a big a bit that Superman wishes that he could have done more, but he's like, but I know that the Hulk is better than people let on. And we'll get the word out about him. And it cuts to the Daily Planet where, Lois, you forgot about the part.

Jmike (01:01:19):
Where they question Alexis. Like Lexus. Like, yeah, I don't know who did this, but I'll find out the person responsible for this madness and we'll bring him to justice.

Case (01:01:26):
Yes, well, again, he hops in his.

Jmike (01:01:27):
Car and drives away.

Case (01:01:29):
Again, rich industrialist. He's getting away with literally everything. He's Teflon Don. We're recording this the night before the inauguration. I'm just seething, ready to turn green.

Logan (01:01:43):
And I'm proud of all of us for doing it sober.

Case (01:01:47):
Anyway, so we get Lois's scooping of Clark Kent, and it's like it almost makes up for the fact that you scoop me on Superman. And they wonder about the fate of the Hulk as we flash forward to the modern day where we see more of this documentary and we find out that Betty Ross dies of radiation poisoning and we're stuck in the sort of like, horrible period of Banner on the run doing the Lonely man walk.

Logan (01:02:15):
I had a note written down here that was at the last panel of this comic. I can hear the music playing.

Jmike (01:02:21):
Me too. I said that too.

Logan (01:02:23):
From the TV show. But I love, you know, you. The, the. It really has a very sad ending because, you know, Banner, you have the sad ending of Banner being alone and he's lost everything but you. Steve Roode so perfectly draws the anguish on Clark's face that he didn't help this guy, that he crossed paths with him and didn't make his life better, wasn't there for him, didn't put the pieces together in time. You know, it just really. I mean, this is a story of, of men struggling with missed opportunities. You know, it really, when you get down to it, you know, like, the gamma gun doesn't kill everybody, but this is a story of failures. This is a story of two men who made mistakes and are now having to live with them.

(01:03:16):
And, and I Think that's one of the things that really elevates this over the other team ups that are just, you can fly, I can fly too. We're going to punch each other for a minute, then we'll punch this other guy and shake hands and fly back to our own comics. You know, the pathos is. Is really there.

Case (01:03:33):
Yeah. It's an incredibly emotional story. You know, as we said, it has this dour ending that really feels like a Hulk story. Yeah. In the best ways. It's, it's. It is just a shockingly good comic. And I'm really glad that we had a chance to talk about it. Oh, absolutely.

Logan (01:03:53):
I can't sing its praises enough. Just the art. If it had no dialogue. If this had been enough said, I would still be like, you have to read this comic, because really, I think you could figure out everything from the art.

Case (01:04:07):
Yeah.

Logan (01:04:07):
But having said that, the story is also good too. Every character's voice is so perfectly captured. Lois has a different accent from Superman. Banner has a different accent from the Hulk. You can really feel the way that they talk. And the. And the personalities bleed through into how the story is, into how the story changes. You know, so much of how this story goes is affected by who the characters are. Who knows how different this would be if Rick Jones was the kind of guy who a pretty face will get him to talk about his best friend, but he's not. So he drives away. And. And maybe Lois could have figured it out in time if he was. You know, the. The tragedy of missed opportunities. And they. And all of those missed opportunities come from who they are. Yeah.

Case (01:04:58):
And it's ones that they. They reflect on in the future, looking back. And. And we get. We get. It's rare that we get the insight of the characters in hindsight, seeing their missed opportunities and opining about it, but this is a book that actually gives us some of that.

Logan (01:05:14):
Oh, yeah. Well, I think you really get the feeling in this that this is a young Superman. You know, maybe if. Comic came out in 99. So maybe if the. If the Jeph Loeb, Ed McGinnis, Superman, who's been on the job for a decade and a half, had met the Hulk, maybe this would have been very different. But this is. What do you figure? It's somewhere in the. Between the pages of man of Steel.

Case (01:05:40):
It's between issues four and five, officially.

Logan (01:05:43):
So it's definitely. It's definitely in his first five years on the job, and he's a little more reckless.

Case (01:05:49):
I mean, this is before the encounter with Bizarro. So it's not like he's really encountered that many, like, superpowered beings even.

Logan (01:05:55):
Yeah, well. And I. One of the things I think is really. I really like about it is when he first encounters the Hulk, Superman is almost kind of excited about the fight. And then afterwards he chides himself and he's like, well, now he's gone. You know, I really messed that up, you know, and it feels like. It feels like when writers want a Superman that has flaws and makes mistakes, they either are like, no, he can't do anything wrong. That's not Superman. Or he does an injustice, but there's never like a nice. This is a nice middle ground of like, oh, I thought that was just a monster, but it turned out it was a guy with thoughts and feelings. Oh, I suck. You know, and he doesn't really. He just. It's a very human failing from a very young Superman.

Case (01:06:46):
He learns his mistakes in the story. You know, it's not like a scenario where he never, like, comes around to understanding his mistakes. It's one who is allowed to mess up on his quest to getting it right.

Logan (01:06:58):
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then, you know, the ban. I feel like with the banner side of things, you know, it doesn't really break any new ground on that. But. But the way that is used, I just can't think of any other character where Superman has really gotten to have that experience of, you know, rampage a little bit. But. But most of the characters in DC that are like this, the human side ends up not being sympathetic. So Superman having to reconcile with the beastie that I'm fighting and this guy who I'm becoming friends with are the same guy. That was a really interesting struggle for Superman. I think the only other time off the top of my head I can think of Superman dealing with that is Davis Bloom from Smallville. And that show was on the wb.

(01:07:48):
So not handled with quite the nuance that you see on display here.

Case (01:07:55):
Well, hey, I am so glad that we had a chance to talk about this issue, Logan. Where can people find you and follow you?

Logan (01:08:02):
Okay, so the easiest place to follow me is I am on Instagram at Token Hillbilly. That is my stand up page where you can follow me. If you scroll back far enough, there are actual stand up acts posted. As I've started my new job, it's quickly become a meme page because I'm being a lazy degenerate. But I think me and my wife are about to start a podcast called Single Bound. And you can reach us at Single bound podcast or singleboundpod gmail.com and you can find us at Single Bound Podcast on Instagram. It is very early days. We have not released an episode yet. But the. The idea that we want to do for the podcast is we review individual issues.

(01:08:47):
So if you have a story arc that has seven issues in it, like the Death of Superman, it'll be seven episodes and we'll get really into the nitty gritty of each individual issue. I would love if you're listening to this and you can think of a comic that is one issue of a great story like how Dennis Camp's Ultimates right now is. Is something that each issue is its own self contained story. If you have a comic that you love like that, please email us at Single Bound Pod and let me know so we can get it into the episode rotation. It would mean a lot to me.

Case (01:09:23):
Yeah, yeah. Everyone should be on the lookout for Single Bound Pod and everyone should check out your socials. If they've got anything, please reach out to you because that sounds so cool. I'm really excited about this podcast idea. So I, I hope to. I hope that it bears fruit.

Logan (01:09:40):
Thank you. Me too. I just have to. I have to get off my lazy ass about it.

Case (01:09:45):
Well, it's been a blast chatting with you, Jike. Where can people find you and follow you?

Jmike (01:09:50):
They can find me over on blue sky at J5 Bluesky Social. I. Please tag me or else I will forget to respond. I am very bad at it. I am sorry. I apologize.

Case (01:10:04):
It's okay. It's okay. People can mess with you on Blue Sky. They can also mess with you or me over on our Discord server, which you can find links to@ certainpov.com It's a great time. We have lots of fun people there. Many people who are the people who they claim to be and also people.

Logan (01:10:22):
I listened to the last episode for the whole story on that.

Case (01:10:28):
But just great conversations going on where you can talk about video games, comics, books. We're having lots of nerdy conversations and it's a good old time there. You can find me on blueskyase Aiken because that's my name. So check that out. And in the meantime you should check out other shows@ certainpov.com I'm going to shout out Books that Burn, which is a really great literary analysis show. Wonderful backlog of material, really taking a look at the characters as if they are rational actors that are being traumatized by their authors and sort of exploring the trauma that goes into these works of fiction. So wonderful show. Please check it out and then circle back here. Until next time, Stay Super Man.

Jmike (01:11:21):
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Fonson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Batista and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.

Case (01:11:47):
Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors? Are you sick of feeling like they could have swapped out all of the painful action and the plot would remain untouched? Subscribe to Books that Burn, the Fortnightly Book Review podcast focusing on fictional depictions of trauma. We assume that the characters reactions are reasonable and focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors. Join us for our minor character spotlights, made character discussions and favorite non traumatic things in the dark books we love. Find us on Spotify, itunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts. Certainpov.com.

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Episode 146 - The Incredible Hulk vs. Superman with Logan Crowley

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 146 - The Incredible Hulk vs. Superman with Logan Crowley