September 5, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of the Mindfulness Exercises Podcast, Sean Fargo sits down with Dr. Steve Haberlin—educator, mindfulness teacher, and researcher dedicated to helping aspiring teachers share mindfulness with authenticity and confidence.
Sean and Dr. Haberlin explore the unique challenges facing today’s college students — from stress and distraction to the mental health crisis on campuses. Steve shares how he began weaving mindfulness into the classroom, what the data says about its benefits, and why practices like breathwork, box breathing, and loving-kindness can help students regulate stress and unlock their potential.
His research and teaching reveal both the opportunities and barriers to bringing mindfulness into academic settings, offering insights for educators, parents, and students alike.
Whether you’re a mindfulness teacher, a college educator, or simply someone navigating stress, this episode offers practical strategies and inspiration to bring mindfulness into everyday life.
CHAPTERS
00:00 – Intro
02:42 – Discovering meditation at age 12
06:34 – How practice evolved into daily life
10:02 – Bringing mindfulness into classrooms
15:54 – Research findings: stress, anxiety & student well-being
18:54 – Barriers students face with mindfulness
21:31 – What practices work best (MBSR, loving-kindness, box breathing)
23:40 – Risks of pushing practices too far, too fast
32:25 – Mindfulness tech: apps, neurofeedback, and AI
🌿 Tune in to learn how to move beyond self-doubt, step into your voice, and share mindfulness in a way that feels authentic and sustainable.
🔗Know more about Dr. Steve Haberlin
Email: steve.haberlin@ucf.eduWorkshop📖 Books:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:03):
Welcome everyone to the Mindfulness Exercises
Podcast.
My name is Sean Fargo.
Today I have the honor ofspeaking with Steve Haberlin.
He is an assistant professor inthe Department of Learning
Sciences and EducationalResearch at the University of
Central Florida, where hestudies the impact and
(00:25):
experiences of meditation,mindfulness, and other mind-body
practices with higher educationstudents.
He's the author of Meditation inthe College Classroom, a
pedagogical tool to helpstudents de-stress, focus, and
connect.
He's also the author of CalmingStudent Stress, Mindfulness,
(00:49):
Meditation, and Other Strategiesto Reduce Anxiety, and the
author of Enhanced Learning inK-12 Classrooms.
Dr.
Haberlin has published researchin a number of peer-reviewed
academic journals, including theJournal of American College
Health and the InternationalJournal of Doctoral Studies.
(01:09):
He serves as an editor for theJournal of Contemplative and
Holistic Education andco-program chair for the
American Educational ResearchAssociation's Holistic Education
Special Interest Group.
He also works as a consultantfor Meditation App Development.
Dr.
(01:30):
Haberlin has personallypracticed meditation for 29
years.
And I'm really looking forwardto discussing with you, Steve,
about mindfulness and meditationin universities and colleges,
and how it can impact collegestudents' stress and mental
(01:50):
health in this time of thismental health crisis.
So, Steve, welcome to thepodcast.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Great to be here, Sean.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (01:58):
Yeah, thank you for coming.
You know, we have a lot ofpeople in our community who are
parents of college students.
Maybe some of us are in collegeright now.
A lot of our community areeducators in different levels of
academia.
So I'm really looking forward toexploring this topic.
(02:20):
And I just can't imagine being acollege student today with cell
phones and pandemics and youknow everything that's going on
in the world.
So I really appreciate Yeah,yeah.
It's a whole nother ballgame, itseems like.
So I really appreciate whatyou're doing for these, you
know, emerging adults.
(02:42):
But Steve, I'd love to explore alittle bit about your background
with mindfulness and meditationand what got you interested in
in these practices.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
So, Sean, my meditation journey, I guess,
would begin about maybe about 12years old.
So when I was 12 years old, itwas a big karate phenomenon.
The karate kid had come out andNinja Turtles and you know,
karate and martial arts was allthe age.
So I signed up at the localdojo, like most of my friends,
and we had a sensei there, orthe teacher would come up and he
told us to meditate.
(03:12):
He said, sit, well, actually, wekneel, kneel down, facing the
wall, and block everything out.
That was the meditationinstruction.
Just block all your distraction,all your noise out.
The problem is when I tell thestory, the problem is next door
was an aerobics studio backthen.
Aerobics was also all the rage.
So the you know, music fromGloria Stefan and all the eight
(03:32):
years was like blaring, was likeshaking the wall, and I'm
sitting there trying toeverything out.
SPEAKER_03 (03:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
And so you're trying to block everything out.
And I said, I I couldn't do it.
I I was more interested in thephysical aspect of the martial
arts, and I said, This is butthis is interesting, you know,
it caught my attention.
I wondered what that was.
And I read a lot of books aboutuh Zen Buddhism, and I was
interested in things like thesamurai, you know, all connected
to martial arts.
And so I was always interestedas a teenage meditation, but I
(04:00):
wouldn't say I did it formallyuntil about undergrad age in my
early 20s.
I was like a lot of these, Ithink, students today, stressed
out and overwhelmed.
But I didn't have, like yousaid, Sean, I didn't have a cell
phone, we didn't have socialmedia, but we had just the
common adulting type things thatthey would call, like, you know,
I've got to get a good job.
What am I gonna be able toafford a home?
(04:20):
Should I get married?
I had like those kind ofquestions circling through my
head.
And I felt pretty overwhelmedand stressed.
So I heard on a recording, itwas Deepak Chopra was talking
about something calledtranscendental meditation.
And I said, What is what isthat?
I opened the phone book up andsure enough, there was a
transcendental meditationschool.
I was in Providence, RhodeIsland.
So on the east side ofProvidence, there was a school
(04:43):
which was a big old house, andyou go there and you learn over
four days.
It's a four-day program, andthey teach you a mantra, a
sound, and then they teach youhow to properly use it and what
your experiences would be.
And that was my introduction.
I was hooked on meditation.
I felt my my, you know, it'slike an advertisement, but my
stress went down.
I felt clearer.
People said I was calmer.
(05:04):
I just like something changed.
I felt a physiological change.
And so I just kept with it.
And then, you know, 15, 20 yearsof it, and then I got interested
in mindfulness, became verypopular.
I started saying, What ismindfulness meditation?
I learned Zen meditation.
I looked into uh like TibetanBuddhist traditions.
I just wanted to expand mymeditation repertoire
(05:25):
personally.
So that's that was my journey.
It all started with karateschool at 12 years old.
SPEAKER_03 (05:30):
So did you sense a chop up pizzas with the sword?
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
No, he did.
That that mencha turles was bigtoo, but uh no, he didn't do
that.
He did wear the band.
I'm not making this up.
He wore the the band dinnerevery day, you know, like uh
Johnny and Cobra Kai or thekarate kid, you know, Ralph
Machi was that maybe the risingsun.
He did wear that every class orevery day, so that was that was
true.
SPEAKER_03 (05:51):
Yeah, I think the karate kid inspired me too.
Yeah, like all the Mr.
Miyagi uh wisdom that he shareslike, ooh, like where can I get
some of that?
You know, right.
And I love how you kind ofconnected the dots and actually
pursued that type of wisdom andthe practices that you know
sensei Miyagi probably did.
(06:14):
That's great.
And so over time, like it soundslike a TM was you know one of
your first you know practices,and you did a little bit of Zen,
you know, before we started ourour you know formal interview
today, you mentioned you know,interest in some Taoist
practices that I had done in mypast.
Yeah, and and so I'm curious howyour personal practice has
(06:39):
evolved over the years, or maybesome key takeaways or key
practices that you found superhelpful for you in your personal
life.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Yeah, it really that's a good question.
So it really has evolved mypractice.
So I would do a mantrameditation and then I started
learning breath meditation.
But I think my conception, likemy understanding of what
meditation could be, reallyexpanded.
So including things likephysical practices and combining
meditation, you know, doingheart coherence type meditation
where you're using the breath,but you're also bringing in
(07:10):
positive emotion.
So you have and then physicalpractice.
The reason I asked about theTaoists is because I started
training or learning from a guy,I'm not sure if you're familiar
with him, Dr.
Barry Morgillin.
He's he has a program calledEnergy for Success, and he had
trained under a grandmaster inChina and brought back this
discipline, which is kind ofpredates Daowa, predates like
(07:31):
Tai Chi and Qigang and a lot ofit is physical practices where
you're using the breath andyou're also moving, and a lot of
it is based on you knowexpanding the energy.
The Chinese will call it qi, wejust call it energy, but you
know, and using the breath more,breathing into the body, using
the breath, using movement.
So more, I think it's evolved inthe sense of my practice today,
it's much more holistic than itwas years ago, where I would
(07:54):
just sit there and it was likevery much in my head.
Now it's now it's very much inmy life.
Like in between, you know, rightbefore this call, I'm doing some
of these practices so that I canbe more in a flow and more
focused and relax, you know.
So, and then I'm doing thembefore I teach class and I'm
working breathwork when I firstget up.
So I think it's it's just becomemore of a part of my daily
(08:15):
routine and just my wholeapproach to life rather than oh,
I'm gonna sit there now for 15minutes and I'm gonna, you know,
and then the rest of my day goeson and I never think of
meditation.
So, like your whole life, it'skind of sounds cliche, but your
whole life becomes a practice, Ithink, as you get deeper.
SPEAKER_03 (08:31):
Is that yeah, yeah, that's really well said.
Yeah, it's kind of like a greatlike sound bite, though.
Like it's not, you know, beforeI was just in my head, you know,
now like it's in my whole life.
Yeah, it feels much moreintegrated that way.
And I think that's one of thethings that a lot of us find
through mindfulness practicesthat in the beginning it can
(08:54):
seem a little heady, like youknow, focus on say you're
breathing at the nostrils orfocus on something and and maybe
we visualize something, butreally the intention is to bring
this embodied awareness toeverything, you know, all the
time.
And you know, the Buddha saidthat there's only one thing you
(09:14):
you can do here with all thesepractices that I teach, only one
thing you can do 24-7, andthat's mindfulness, you know,
this gentle awareness of ourexperience.
So it really is meant to befully integrated.
And I love how it sounds likeyou're you don't have a like one
(09:35):
practice that you only do.
It sounds like you're open toanything that works.
It sounds like in incorporatingthese different practices from
ancient wisdom traditions aswell as things that have kind of
been more popular lately.
You know, we you and I talkedabout muse headbands and you
know, even using AI to supportus.
So I'm looking forward to tolearning about some of your
(09:58):
research and and practice withwith those things too.
But I'd like to segue first intolike how you got involved in
bringing mindfulness to academiaand what your interests are in
bringing mindfulness to studentsand teachers and what you're
seeing these days with that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
Sure.
So it started with in graduateschool, but it was during my
master's degree work that I dida pilot study with a professor
where we looked at usingmindfulness meditation.
They did some yoga, and it waswith elementary students that I
was teaching at the time.
So it started there, and we dida pilot with elementary students
to see how it would help themwith their stress and their
(10:36):
focus.
And it was a very small, I don'tthink it was a like a
well-constructed study, but itwas a start.
And then in my dissertation,when I went for my doctoral
degree at University of SouthFlorida, my dissertation
involved mindfulness.
As I was working with studentteachers, I was I was coaching
student teachers or what theysay, supervising them to go into
(10:57):
the classroom, and I wasincorporating mindfulness
techniques into that practice tosee how that would help me
prepare the teachers.
So then that continued.
But I think I really found myresearch agenda, my focus, my
calling, if you will, was I wentmy first academia job was at a
private college in Georgia, andI taught a lot of undergrad
(11:20):
classes, and they would come inand they were very, very
stressed out.
They were just, you know,overwhelmed.
They looked at like very tensein their face, and they come on
and they're on their cell phone,they're very distracted.
And I immediately realized Ineeded to do something before I
started class.
I had to kind of create like asegue, right?
Or a space for them to maybedecompress, to center.
(11:43):
I need to do something.
So I just drew on my background.
My background was, hey, I'vebeen meditating for a couple of
decades, you know, at least 20years at that point.
I said, let me let me try somemeditation, some techniques and
mindfulness to see how thatworks with them.
So I took out, I have it behindme, but I took, you know, like a
singing bowl or you know, one ofthe little meditation bowls, and
I and I just rang it.
(12:04):
You know, they would come toclass and I rang it and I told
them to just listen.
I said, just stop and listen,you know, like you listen to
nature or something.
Like just stop, just stopeverything.
Put your cell phone down andjust just listen.
I invited them.
I'm inviting you to just listen.
And and they looked at me reallyweird.
It didn't go over, like, youknow, this was very
non-traditional.
So they looked at me like, oh,it's with the skies, a little
(12:26):
bit, you know, a kookyprofessor.
But I stuck with it.
Then I would come in and ringthe ring the bowl and then Sean,
what I would do is tell them,pay attention to your breath.
Like just bring awareness toyour breath.
You know, don't try to doanything, don't try to
manipulate it, but just be awareof the breath going in and out.
So then I would do that for acouple of minutes, and then that
seemed to help some of them, andthen they would just seem a
little bit more settled when westarted class, and they just
(12:49):
evolved.
And I would try maybe a love andkindness meditation, or we would
go outside, do a walkingmeditation through the quad.
So it evolved like that.
But what kind of happenedorganically was other faculty
saw what I was doing, and I wasstarting to collect data.
I was starting to interview themand collect data on their
experiences, the students thatis so the faculty said, Hey, I
want to try that.
(13:09):
So probably about six, sevenother faculty started doing it
in their classes, and they alsocollected data.
And then we would compare notes.
We would say, What are theyexperiencing?
You know, what's working, what'snot working?
That formed the basis of myfirst book, was kind of like a
field guide of like, okay, Iwant to put meditation in my
classroom on a simplemindfulness exercise.
Where do I begin?
(13:30):
What do I say?
What do I do if they resist?
If they don't want to do it,what do I do?
You know, what's plan B?
So that became the book.
And then that continued toexpand where I said, okay, I
started to realize undergradseverywhere have a lot of mental
health challenges.
They have higher rates of stressthese days, high rates of
depression, higher rates ofanxiety.
(13:52):
I said, these are tools.
And I started realizing otherpeople were doing, you know,
mindfulness interventions withundergrad undergraduates.
So then I expanded.
And then when I got to theUniversity of Central Florida, I
really pushed to continue to dothe same kind of research of
students in the classroom, butalso mental health outcomes,
like let's measure their stresslevel, let's measure their
(14:13):
anxiety, let's measure theirwell-beings, you know, these
kind of statistical outcomes, aswell as their experiences,
meaning how do they perceivethese practices, what are the
potential barriers that they seecoming.
So I just really continue toexpand and trying different
things, love and kindness, likeyou had mentioned, so we brought
in the Muse.
So trying what we would calldigital mindfulness, where they
(14:33):
would wear a neurofeedbackheadband, and that would guide
them through a meditation withan app, and then we would
collect data on that and see howthat's working.
I have grants in for virtualreality.
We haven't got that equipmentyet, but I wanted to test um
some of the virtual realitymeditations with them.
So just really, you know,expanding and just saying, how
can we use these ancient tools,these ancient traditions in a
(14:58):
way, in a way in the currentcontext that helps these
students not just not justde-stress, but I want them to
awaken their potential.
I tell these young people, Isay, you have incredible energy,
you have credible awareness, youhave incredible potential.
You might have not been toldthat, right?
You may have not, the culturemight have not nurtured that,
but you have that.
(15:18):
And let me show you some toolsthat if you consistently do them
over time, like I found in myown life, then that will, you
will grow.
You will you will start to tapsome of that hidden, you know,
that inner potential.
Like Miyagi, back to Mr.
Like Mr.
Miyagi told Daniels, son, right?
But I mean, really, I really do.
I mean, the science shows it.
The science shows that thesekind of practices tap parts of
(15:41):
the brain and parts of thenervous system and the
physiology that are maybe lyingdormant, you know, that we're
just not we're not using to theextent or capacity that we could
use them.
So I want these young people tofeel empowered.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
Beautiful.
Well, Steve, so I love that yougather data as a part of this,
and I think that data collectinggoes a long way in academia and
also in organizations and mostsecular situations, you know,
the powers that be are gonnawant to see data that like
there's some benefit here, andthat it's not just you know,
(16:16):
some rogue teacher talkingabout, you know, stillness.
It's it's you know, like whatare the benefits here?
Are this what what are the saymore objective or quantitative
based data?
And then what are what's thequalitative, like experiential,
subjective, perceptual data?
Like, and you know, is thisworth investing five minutes at
(16:40):
the beginning of every class todo?
And how does the data even alignwith our mission, with whatever
our mission is?
So I'm curious if you'd be ableto share, say, just a couple
bullet points on like some ofthe data that you've found
either in that first iterationor since then, like what was
maybe surprising?
(17:01):
Did it impact grades?
Um, is there a sweet spot interms of how much you know time
you meditate in the beginning ofa class?
Anything that you can kind ofshare that might be helpful for
our audience?
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Sure.
So my graduate assistant, she'sshe's graduated and moved on,
but we we went through probably,you know, 60 studies or so
looking at the my what we wouldcall mindfulness-based
interventions withundergraduates.
And the conclusion, what wefound was it was definitely
effective in reducing stress.
(17:36):
What we would call, we theymeasure what we call perceived
stress.
So the outcome of stress wentdown or improved, anxiety was
reduced, depression wasgenerally reduced.
So as far as the mental healthbenefits, mindfulness
interventions in college, youknow, college-based seem pretty
(17:57):
effective.
They they have they have apositive outcome on students'
mental health.
That's not just my review, butif you look at other systematic
reviews, mindfulness has beenfound to be maybe the most
potent intervention in highered.
It's a it's definitely uh in thetop one or two.
But as far as academics, it's alittle shakier.
(18:19):
It's hot what we found in ourreview is it was hard to say
that it improved grades or quizscores or tests.
In some studies it did, and thenin some studies they couldn't
replicate it and it didn't.
So it was a little bit more on,you know, not as less conclusive
as far as like, does it improveacademics?
(18:40):
And I think additional researchhas to be done there.
There hasn't, and there hasn'tbeen as much research focused on
the academics as the mentalhealth, and it's probably just
because of you know, mentalhealth rates, you know, kind of
skyrocketing from pre, you know,the pandemic times.
So more work needs to be done onthe academic side.
As far as qualitative, studentsdo report a lot of the same
(19:00):
experiences as the mental healthoutcomes.
So they'll say things like, Ifeel calmer, I feel more
relaxed.
And this is whether they do itin like a classroom setting, or
maybe they do it like at aworkshop, you know, a workshop
as part of the college wellnesscenter.
They'll generally report verypositive experiences for the
most part, you know, calmer,less anxiety, I feel more
(19:22):
focused, I feel more centered.
There is only a small percentthat would have what we would
call adverse effect.
I mean, that can happen.
There are some where it almostbackfires, or it doesn't seem to
work for them, but it's a small,I don't have the exact number in
front of me, but it's a small,smaller percentage.
Uh what we what we do find inthat literature, though, the
qualitative, is they do describea lot of barriers, what we call
(19:44):
barriers to practice.
So the number one is they'll saythings like lack of time.
College students will say, Idon't have time to do
mindfulness, I don't have timeto sit there and meditate.
They will also not perceive thevalue of it.
So they'll see it.
One study that I'm on the thirdyear of following some of the
same students at the smallcollege.
(20:05):
And they're, as far as at leastlast year, what they told me was
they did not have time to sitthere.
They have homework, they havefriends, they have work, right?
They're like, I don't have timefor this stuff.
So they what we the way weinterpret that is they don't see
the value in it.
Because someone could make thesame argument, say, I don't have
time, I don't know, to go to thegym, I don't have time, you
(20:27):
know, to go for a run orsomething.
You can make that argument foralmost anything that's
beneficial to you.
So they don't see the value inmindfulness meditation.
They understand it in a waywhere it's going to be giving
back results or improving theirlife in some way.
And then other barriers would beit's difficult.
I can't sit there with mythoughts.
It's too much distraction.
(20:47):
I can't find a quiet place to dothis.
And less this happens less now,but it could be like a conflict
with religion or this is weird.
My friends or family think I'mweird, right?
I'm strange because I practicethis esoteric.
You know, that's less common nowbecause it's become you know
much more mainstream.
So you have like these positiveoutcomes, but you still have why
I pointed it out, Sean, is thatyou still have these barriers
(21:10):
that young people face that youknow, whether they're actual
barriers or men or perceivedbarriers, they they do have
barriers to practicingmeditation and mindfulness.
SPEAKER_03 (21:20):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's pretty common as it you
know becomes more mainstream.
I think um you know, we see alittle less of that.
But thanks for for sharing allthat.
I'm curious what kinds ofpractices have you found to be
say welcoming by the collegestudents?
(21:41):
Which practices have sayproduced some of the more the
better data or like theincreased scores or the
improvements, you know,data-wise, either quantitative
or qualitative.
And how like which practicewould practices would you
recommend?
Say either college educators andor just any educator, say
(22:06):
post-puberty or something.
SPEAKER_01 (22:08):
Yeah, as far as like the outcomes that I laid out,
the most commonly practiced oror studied intervention is is
John Cabot Zinn'smindfulness-based stress
reduction.
So what the techniques that thatincludes, like sitting
meditation, mindfulnessmeditation, maybe some yoga,
body scanning is a big that'sthe most commonly studied one
and probably intimate,implemented one in college
(22:30):
settings.
My work in the last year or two,we've looked at, we've looked at
this at for graduates,undergraduate students, and
graduate students.
There's love and kindnessmeditation.
It's very interesting becauseyou're moving from just having
students, you know, and we'vedone this where they come into
class and do this at the startof class, where they're moving
from just being aware of thebreath.
(22:51):
Now they're using visualizationand they're generating like that
positive intention.
So you're adding like it'sinteresting as you add layers
how people respond to that.
And overall, we've had some goodresults with stress and
mindfulness increasing andstress going down, and students
responding positively to itoverall, just in general.
But one caveat is when we did itwith graduate students, we had
(23:13):
to come in and we had these, youknow, the grad student doc
they're doctoral student,doctorate of education students,
and we had them do it at thefirst part of class.
And I was the one thatfacilitated, let them through.
When they did the love andkindness for what we might call
like level one, right?
Tier one, where they chose whatwe call an easy target, I don't
know, the family member or pet,a friend, you know, someone that
(23:33):
could just generate positiveemotion very easily, that
produced their their experiencewith that was of calmness and
focus, and they had thispositive energy going into
class.
But as soon as we moved Sean tolike a higher, like a more
difficult tier where they had todo love and kindness to like a
stranger, what they callneutral, I believe in the
Buddhist tradition, and then andthen a difficult person, forget
(23:55):
it, they they really struggleto.
So, like, I don't even like thisperson, and you want me to wish
them well and may you be happy.
So it almost backfired.
And the reason I bring that upis because if educators want to
put it in their classrooms, theyhave to be very careful of the
method or the technique that youuse.
If you're just trying to getstudents like to acclimate to
(24:17):
class, maybe feel moreconnected, or maybe you just
want to calm them down a littlebit from their busy hectic day.
Then you got to be veryintentional about what technique
you use.
And some of them, like this onein this case, what might
actually backfire.
It might actually create moretension and stress because they
don't have that level oftraining.
It is it they could benefit andit maybe increase, uh, let's say
(24:38):
they could increase compassionover time, but not necessarily
in their first couple minutes ofclass, right?
It just might be too much.
You're throwing like a, youknow, you're throwing an
avalanche.
This is an avalanche coming atthem, and you're telling them to
calm down.
So yeah, that that's why I wantto bring that example up because
that didn't work so well.
And the only time I've had anadverse effect, and I've taught
(24:59):
probably dozen, maybe at thispoint, hundreds of students,
different forms of meditationwas with a loving kindness.
And the student was told to doan easy target, but I think they
brought up someone who hadpassed away, maybe, maybe
grandma or someone had passedaway and had a complete, you
know, emotional meltdown, justcomplete reaction, and left the
class and went to the studentand had to talk to them about
(25:21):
what had happened.
So you have to be very aware,like the way you've the
instructions you give, and to beprepared and then let students
know if they start to feeloverwhelmed or too much emotion
or flooding, what they callflooding, that they have to
maybe stop the meditation.
So there's a lot of nuances toit.
And then I'll just end withthis, Sean.
Not a lot of research behind it,but box breathing, something
(25:44):
simple as breath work, like boxbreathing.
The graduates have noted thatbox breathing was very helpful.
So now this semester, weactually we just did consent
starting next whateverWednesday, we're gonna start
collecting data on that.
We're gonna have them do boxbreathing at the beginning of
class for a couple of minutes,and we're gonna see how that
(26:05):
works in uh several outcomes.
We're gonna look at stress,anxiety, well-being, and I think
they're somatic, you know, likephysical ailment, you know,
physical ailments, like do theyhave an ache or something like
that?
So box breathing, something assimple like that might be
recommended for to start rightyour classes, just have them
breathe deeply.
SPEAKER_03 (26:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that can be paired withmindfulness in the sense that we
can just sense the inhale, thepause, sense the exhale, the
pause, you know.
So bringing mindfulness to theexperience of box breathing and
notice what's happening in thebody as we do that, what's
(26:42):
happening with you know themind, and you know, notice the
the change over time.
Yeah, I I think breath work isso powerful, and it's something
that I'm increasingly interestedin in incorporating into you
know my teachings and my ownpersonal practice, and I think
it complements mindfulnesspractice really well because you
(27:04):
can do both at the same time.
And yeah, so yeah, boxbreathing, loving kindness.
I love what you said around, youknow, just being careful in how
we frame the teachings, thatwe're not, you know, trying to
overwhelm them or flood them,and that if it does start to
feel overwhelming or highlysensitive, you know, just back
(27:24):
off, you know, just do whatfeels safe and comfortable to
you, you know, let us know if ifthings are coming up for you.
And yeah, sometimes if we docompassion work or
self-compassion work for others,you know, it's it's not easy
because it it it inherentlyimplies that there's some some
(27:46):
degree of suffering involved forus to have compassion for.
And so, you know, forintroductory practices, you
know, just a simple sense ofcare for others, wishing them
well, and maybe starting withpeople who are not necessarily
going through, you know,traumatic experiences or
(28:09):
anything that's too painful.
Yeah.
And I like your approach ofexperimenting with different
practices and just kind ofseeing what works for different
populations.
You touched on something earlierthat I I'd like to follow up on,
which is that a lot of studentsdon't see the value of say
mindfulness.
And, you know, why would I spendfive minutes on this if I don't
(28:30):
feel like I have five minutes inmy day?
Like I'm trying to catch up on,you know, a million things in
life.
Why would I sit there and devotefive minutes to something that,
you know, doesn't seem obviouslybeneficial to me.
And so I'm curious if you foundany languaging around or
techniques of communicating whatthe value is for some of these
(28:55):
college students who feel likethey don't have time for this.
SPEAKER_01 (28:58):
That's a good question.
And that's still a challenge, Ithink, that I face.
I've tried all kinds of things,and some things seem to work a
little better than others.
The the problem, the underlyingproblem is mindfulness, like a
lot of things that are worthyour time, don't always produce
immediate benefit.
And we're in a society, right,where we're in a quick, you
(29:19):
know, we're in a superaccelerated society, right?
We want everything, you know,fast food and fast internet.
So they want fast results.
And sometimes that's not justnot the way the mind-body system
works.
It can take some, you know,consistent training or practice.
So you can use analogies like ifyou were to get fit, you would
maybe not go to the gym a day ortwo or even a week, right?
(29:41):
And then notice results.
But there is kind of thattipping point where all of a
sudden you start noticing, Idon't know, more tone muscle or
your aerobic capacity expands.
So you can use analogies likethat.
You can tie it to academics andyou could kind of show them
maybe the benefits of being ableto sit in class and to focus.
And to rein their awareness in.
(30:02):
So you can tie, like if astudent's interest in academics,
you can tie it.
So you tie it to whatever thatcelebrities help too.
They're very much into, youknow, entertainment and
celebrities.
So if there is, I think it wasLeBron James maybe was sitting
there meditating between, youknow, he was maybe doing some
kind of breath work orsomething.
When you can bring inhigh-profile people, and I'm not
(30:23):
saying they know, I'm not sayingthey're meditation masters, but
they are, they are icons.
They're people to young, they'repeople that attract young
people's attention.
So if you can show them thatthis celebrity or this pop
singer has this gruelingschedule where she travels
around the country doingconcerts, but she sustains
herself through this meditationor mindfulness practice,
(30:46):
sometimes that helps becausethey go, oh, okay, this must be
now this is valuable.
So I've used everything likethat.
So I've tried all kinds ofthings.
Anecdotes, other studenttestimonies as good.
So if you have a student thathas benefits and they start to
feel less stressed and theystart to feel like things are
getting better in their life,and they talk to the student.
(31:07):
So student to student worksreally well, almost like a
testimonial.
I've done that, and sometimesthey listen to that.
And then I'd also like to throwin, we have to keep so with that
in mind, it's good to maybeintroduce practices that are
brief, that maybe are powerful,like a breath, like a deep
breathing, a box breathing, orjust breath work, where they
just kind of feel an immediatesense of calmness or a change.
(31:30):
And it only maybe took a coupleminutes because then they might
be more apt to stick with thatand try that a little longer
because they felt some immediaterelief.
And then also things like yoga,what they call like meditation
on wheels, right?
So movement-based practice likeyoga.
Tai chi doesn't seem to sink toowell because it's too slow and
(31:50):
they have this stigma that it'slike just for old people.
I think it's those kind ofpractices are fantastic for
mindfulness, but I don't, Idon't think, see, college
students like in the quad doingTai Chi, but they a lot of them
do yoga.
A lot of them take yoga classesand then they'll do like a
mindfulness, you know, that whatis it where they lay down at the
end, you know, and just kind offeel the body and emotions and
that posture.
(32:11):
So those kind of practices toomight be almost like a vehicle,
a modern day vehicle to get themto develop awareness and
mindfulness.
So I think we just have to besuper flexible to try to make
like a soft sell, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:25):
Yeah.
Well, speaking of say modernpractices, you know, we've
touched on them use headband,you know, AI is there's
different applications fortherapy, coaching.
You know, I was using AI lastnight for support with some
things that I've been dealingwith.
So what's your take on that?
(32:46):
Because I know, you know, for alot of young people, there's a
real addiction with screens andtechnology.
And yet, you know, and so partof mindfulness and meditation
is, you know, sensing inward,kind of dropping connection with
our phones and screens, and yetthere are some positive effects
(33:10):
of some of these, you know, moretechnological applications.
So I'm I'm curious what yourtake on that is, what you've
seen helping college students,any considerations that you'd
like to share for collegestudents who maybe have this
question of how much tech shouldI use for mindfulness and
meditation?
SPEAKER_01 (33:30):
That's that's a great question.
It's a big, you know, that's afast moving and highly evolving
topic.
So I've written a book, I have abook coming out on that because
I researched it because I knewthis is really evolving.
Like this is, I really do thinkit is going to be the future.
Now, when I say that, it doesn'tmean I think that
technology-assisted meditationor prime body practice using
(33:50):
technology is necessarily goingto be better or always the way
to go.
It's just more prevalent.
So, in other words, meditationapps, I was just reading, they
make up like 96% of the mentalhealth wellness apps.
They dominate the mental healthapp industry right now,
meditation apps.
Now, that doesn't mean thatthat's you can't build it, bake
(34:12):
into that though, the statementthat they're more effective or
that's the way to learnmeditation, right?
Or and a lot of people drop out.
I think it's like half of themthat start the app, though, they
don't stick with the app.
So you have to be careful tosay, like, this is the wave of
the future.
I say this is the wave of thefuture, but it's very unknown.
It's very uncharted, and wedon't, and I don't know if it's
the most always the mostbeneficial way to go.
(34:33):
So it's like a double-edgedsword.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:36):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
So, so, so some some data on that or just some
findings are meditation apps doseem to work.
Like with college students,there are some positive outcomes
as far as reduced stress andthings like that.
It's not always as consistent.
And I think that body ofresearch is growing, but again,
sticking with the apps.
There's there's high levels ofdropout rates.
(35:00):
So it introduces people, likeyoung people get into introduced
to mindfulness through apps.
That is the way it is now beingdistributed.
Like that's the new game, butthey don't always stick with it.
One thing we have done that wasthat I find interesting is the
neurofeedback aspect.
Some of the apps have, you know,like they hook up to your
(35:20):
smartwatch or something likethat.
But we've tested theneurofeedback headbands.
We've done some pilots now withundergrads.
And I would say the bigdifference is when you're
sitting there and meditatingand/or you're sitting there
meditating, listening to aguided meditation, you don't
have live feedback.
You're listening to it andyou're following along, but you
might be wondering, am I doingthis right?
(35:42):
Am I on track?
Like, what's going on?
And these neurofeedback devicesthat we tested, they actually
read the brainwave activity ofthe participant, and then they
send back live feedback.
The way they do it in the onethat we used was uh they'll use
sound.
So you'll hear like rain, andthen the rain will increase if
you're just you know your brainwaves are, I guess, going more
(36:05):
towards the beta, you know, kindof high activity.
And then when you can bring itdown, slow it down to more what
we call an alpha state, which isa calmer brainwave state, the
rain will slow down.
You'll hear it start to calmdown, almost stop.
So that will give you feedback.
So then students say, oh, if Ibreathe deeper, or if I, you
know, slow my thought andbreathe deeper, whatever, and
(36:26):
change my physiology, I noticethe rain slows down.
So I'm gonna keep doing that.
I'm gonna use that feedbackright to adjust my practice.
And that was the big takeawaywas they can adjust their
practice on the dime.
And then that said, that's onlyone type of meditation, though.
They're doing just kind of amindfulness meditation, you
know.
So that's still kind of in theearly stages too, because it's
(36:47):
limited in the type ofmeditation instruction that the
students are getting.
But it is a whole new, it is awhole new world as far as live
feedback.
And then AI is now beingbrought, Sean, into these kind
of devices so that AI is nowgonna further personalize.
So it will collect data, let'ssay, on your meditation practice
(37:07):
and then tailor it orpersonalize it for your next
session.
So they'll start working withyou almost like a meditation
coach.
And I think those are also inthe early stages, but there is
those kind of things are beingdeveloped, and I think that's
the way it's headed, is whereyou're gonna have AI basically
teaching, directing you, andcoaching you towards what you
(37:30):
might call more mindful state ormeditation state, and then who
knows if that's better.
Who knows if that's gonna bebetter or not?
I've tried all those.
I don't know about if you triedthose some of these devices,
Sean.
I tried them all in them, and Ialways go back to my old school
traditional practice withoutdevices, other than listening to
a guided meditation.
SPEAKER_03 (37:50):
Sure, yeah.
I think they they all have theirplace, and I think that it's
helpful to try sitting byoneself without anything, try a
muse headband, uh, try someguided meditations, try live
in-person retreats, and toexperiment and see what what's
(38:11):
helpful for you in in say thephase of your life right now or
how you're feeling these days ingeneral, and to find a balance.
I think that having a potpourriof different styles and
practices are very helpful.
You know, try someloving-kindness practices,
self-compassion, concentrationpractice, mantras can be
(38:33):
helpful.
So, you know, tai chi.
I think just finding thatbalance is is really helpful.
And that's what I do.
I I I do different things eachday.
Um, sometimes I'll go through aphase where I really cultivate
one type of meditation for a fewweeks at a time, especially on
retreat.
But if you're only doing a museheadband, I would invite you to
(38:56):
consider you know, sprinkling insome other non-muse style
practices also, um, so that wedon't become like overly
dependent on an external deviceand that we also make room for
what you said earlier, is justintegrating it with our whole
life and not just the momentswhere I have my headband.
(39:17):
Uh, we interviewed uh ArielGarton, the founder and CEO of
Muse a couple weeks ago, andit's really amazing what uh the
headband can do these days, andyeah, it can be quite powerful
for a lot of folks.
So yeah, and I think AIC has itsplace too.
But you know, it's a tool, andyou know, let's not get overly
dependent on it and remember tofind that balance and being able
(39:41):
to listen to our own intuitionand and find our own wisdom as
well.
But yeah, I I I resonate withwith everything you're saying.
Steve, how can people get intouch with you?
What are you up to these days?
What sort of parting messagewould you like to share with our
community?
SPEAKER_01 (39:59):
Sure.
The best way to get in touchwith me, I'd say which is just a
university email, which issteve.haberlinucf, UCF for uh
universitycentralflorida.edu.
And that would be the best wayif they just want to shoot an
email and want to discussthings, or they want to, you
know, they're interested indoing a workshop with a book or
learning more about the books orsomething.
And the books are on Amazon.
(40:21):
You can just look there.
As far as what I'm up to thesedays, is just a lot of research.
We have a number of studies, uh,a couple of studies that are
going on currently, right now.
Uh they involve undergrads andgraduates shown with box
breathing.
And I've collaborated with, areyou familiar with Mark Devine?
He's the guy that coined boxbreathing.
He's did not, he's an AV SEALand he created a program called
(40:42):
Unbeatable Mind, or he's aformer Navy SEAL.
So his the story is hesupposedly coined the term box
breathing, and he also teachesother practices like yoga and
meditation.
So we're we're testing that withgrads and undergrads this fall
at the university to see if wecan adapt his program to you
know college to kind of acollege setting.
(41:03):
So that's some of the things I'mworking on.
See how that turns out.
But it's a it's it's a it's afun collaboration.
SPEAKER_03 (41:08):
So yeah.
That's exciting.
Great.
And we will maybe put your emailaddress in the show notes if
that's okay.
Sure, that'd be great for yourAmazon books so that people can
check out your work, get intouch with you, you know, to all
the college students out therelistening.
We feel for you.
We know it's hard.
SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
Yeah, that yeah, I forgot my parting message, Sean.
Yeah, that would yeah, yeah, wefeel for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, yeah, I would say it's hard,and the future is uncertain, but
you have enormous potential.
You have enormous potential.
And one of my teachers will say,You're like a redwood tree, you
know, that you you start off asa seed and you have this amazing
(41:50):
ability to just grow, grow, andgrow, right?
And in all ways, emotionally andyour awareness and your
creativity.
So I would, I would just, that'smy parting message, is you
really, you really are a redwoodtree.
You you have enormous potential.
You could just do enormousthings in your life, but you
have to, you have to findpractices to manage the stress,
to manage the distraction, tomanage all the things that
(42:12):
you're juggling in your life sothat you can, you know, you can
kind of let that energy out andyou can focus and do great
things, but you can.
You can really you can really doamazing things.
So don't feel you know beatendown by the culture right now.
SPEAKER_03 (42:26):
Yeah, beautiful.
Well, Steve, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
It was a pleasure speaking withyou and learning about all the
great things that you're doingfor students and teachers in uh
the college setting.
And we're rooting for you.
Keep up the great work.
SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
Thank you so much for having me on, show.
SPEAKER_03 (42:45):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (42:51):
Rince takes your laundry and hand delivers it to
your door, expertly cleaned andfolded, so you could take the
time once spent folding andsorting and waiting to finally
pursue a whole new version ofyou.
Like tea time you.
Or even this tea time you.
Or even tea time tea time teatime you.
(43:15):
So update on Dave.
It's up to you.
We'll take the laundry.
Rince, it's a time to be great.
Welcome everyone to the Mindfulness Exercises
Podcast.
My name is Sean Fargo.
Today I have the honor ofspeaking with Steve Haberlin.
He is an assistant professor inthe Department of Learning
Sciences and EducationalResearch at the University of
Central Florida, where hestudies the impact and
(00:25):
experiences of meditation,mindfulness, and other mind-body
practices with higher educationstudents.
He's the author of Meditation inthe College Classroom, a
pedagogical tool to helpstudents de-stress, focus, and
connect.
He's also the author of CalmingStudent Stress, Mindfulness,
(00:49):
Meditation, and Other Strategiesto Reduce Anxiety, and the
author of Enhanced Learning inK-12 Classrooms.
Dr.
Haberlin has published researchin a number of peer-reviewed
academic journals, including theJournal of American College
Health and the InternationalJournal of Doctoral Studies.
(01:09):
He serves as an editor for theJournal of Contemplative and
Holistic Education andco-program chair for the
American Educational ResearchAssociation's Holistic Education
Special Interest Group.
He also works as a consultantfor Meditation App Development.
Dr.
(01:30):
Haberlin has personallypracticed meditation for 29
years.
And I'm really looking forwardto discussing with you, Steve,
about mindfulness and meditationin universities and colleges,
and how it can impact collegestudents' stress and mental
(01:50):
health in this time of thismental health crisis.
So, Steve, welcome to thepodcast.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Great to be here, Sean.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (01:58):
Yeah, thank you for coming.
You know, we have a lot ofpeople in our community who are
parents of college students.
Maybe some of us are in collegeright now.
A lot of our community areeducators in different levels of
academia.
So I'm really looking forward toexploring this topic.
(02:20):
And I just can't imagine being acollege student today with cell
phones and pandemics and youknow everything that's going on
in the world.
So I really appreciate Yeah,yeah.
It's a whole nother ballgame, itseems like.
So I really appreciate whatyou're doing for these, you
know, emerging adults.
(02:42):
But Steve, I'd love to explore alittle bit about your background
with mindfulness and meditationand what got you interested in
in these practices.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
So, Sean, my meditation journey, I guess,
would begin about maybe about 12years old.
So when I was 12 years old, itwas a big karate phenomenon.
The karate kid had come out andNinja Turtles and you know,
karate and martial arts was allthe age.
So I signed up at the localdojo, like most of my friends,
and we had a sensei there, orthe teacher would come up and he
told us to meditate.
(03:12):
He said, sit, well, actually, wekneel, kneel down, facing the
wall, and block everything out.
That was the meditationinstruction.
Just block all your distraction,all your noise out.
The problem is when I tell thestory, the problem is next door
was an aerobics studio backthen.
Aerobics was also all the rage.
So the you know, music fromGloria Stefan and all the eight
(03:32):
years was like blaring, was likeshaking the wall, and I'm
sitting there trying toeverything out.
SPEAKER_03 (03:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
And so you're trying to block everything out.
And I said, I I couldn't do it.
I I was more interested in thephysical aspect of the martial
arts, and I said, This is butthis is interesting, you know,
it caught my attention.
I wondered what that was.
And I read a lot of books aboutuh Zen Buddhism, and I was
interested in things like thesamurai, you know, all connected
to martial arts.
And so I was always interestedas a teenage meditation, but I
(04:00):
wouldn't say I did it formallyuntil about undergrad age in my
early 20s.
I was like a lot of these, Ithink, students today, stressed
out and overwhelmed.
But I didn't have, like yousaid, Sean, I didn't have a cell
phone, we didn't have socialmedia, but we had just the
common adulting type things thatthey would call, like, you know,
I've got to get a good job.
What am I gonna be able toafford a home?
(04:20):
Should I get married?
I had like those kind ofquestions circling through my
head.
And I felt pretty overwhelmedand stressed.
So I heard on a recording, itwas Deepak Chopra was talking
about something calledtranscendental meditation.
And I said, What is what isthat?
I opened the phone book up andsure enough, there was a
transcendental meditationschool.
I was in Providence, RhodeIsland.
So on the east side ofProvidence, there was a school
(04:43):
which was a big old house, andyou go there and you learn over
four days.
It's a four-day program, andthey teach you a mantra, a
sound, and then they teach youhow to properly use it and what
your experiences would be.
And that was my introduction.
I was hooked on meditation.
I felt my my, you know, it'slike an advertisement, but my
stress went down.
I felt clearer.
People said I was calmer.
(05:04):
I just like something changed.
I felt a physiological change.
And so I just kept with it.
And then, you know, 15, 20 yearsof it, and then I got interested
in mindfulness, became verypopular.
I started saying, What ismindfulness meditation?
I learned Zen meditation.
I looked into uh like TibetanBuddhist traditions.
I just wanted to expand mymeditation repertoire
(05:25):
personally.
So that's that was my journey.
It all started with karateschool at 12 years old.
SPEAKER_03 (05:30):
So did you sense a chop up pizzas with the sword?
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
No, he did.
That that mencha turles was bigtoo, but uh no, he didn't do
that.
He did wear the band.
I'm not making this up.
He wore the the band dinnerevery day, you know, like uh
Johnny and Cobra Kai or thekarate kid, you know, Ralph
Machi was that maybe the risingsun.
He did wear that every class orevery day, so that was that was
true.
SPEAKER_03 (05:51):
Yeah, I think the karate kid inspired me too.
Yeah, like all the Mr.
Miyagi uh wisdom that he shareslike, ooh, like where can I get
some of that?
You know, right.
And I love how you kind ofconnected the dots and actually
pursued that type of wisdom andthe practices that you know
sensei Miyagi probably did.
(06:14):
That's great.
And so over time, like it soundslike a TM was you know one of
your first you know practices,and you did a little bit of Zen,
you know, before we started ourour you know formal interview
today, you mentioned you know,interest in some Taoist
practices that I had done in mypast.
Yeah, and and so I'm curious howyour personal practice has
(06:39):
evolved over the years, or maybesome key takeaways or key
practices that you found superhelpful for you in your personal
life.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Yeah, it really that's a good question.
So it really has evolved mypractice.
So I would do a mantrameditation and then I started
learning breath meditation.
But I think my conception, likemy understanding of what
meditation could be, reallyexpanded.
So including things likephysical practices and combining
meditation, you know, doingheart coherence type meditation
where you're using the breath,but you're also bringing in
(07:10):
positive emotion.
So you have and then physicalpractice.
The reason I asked about theTaoists is because I started
training or learning from a guy,I'm not sure if you're familiar
with him, Dr.
Barry Morgillin.
He's he has a program calledEnergy for Success, and he had
trained under a grandmaster inChina and brought back this
discipline, which is kind ofpredates Daowa, predates like
(07:31):
Tai Chi and Qigang and a lot ofit is physical practices where
you're using the breath andyou're also moving, and a lot of
it is based on you knowexpanding the energy.
The Chinese will call it qi, wejust call it energy, but you
know, and using the breath more,breathing into the body, using
the breath, using movement.
So more, I think it's evolved inthe sense of my practice today,
it's much more holistic than itwas years ago, where I would
(07:54):
just sit there and it was likevery much in my head.
Now it's now it's very much inmy life.
Like in between, you know, rightbefore this call, I'm doing some
of these practices so that I canbe more in a flow and more
focused and relax, you know.
So, and then I'm doing thembefore I teach class and I'm
working breathwork when I firstget up.
So I think it's it's just becomemore of a part of my daily
(08:15):
routine and just my wholeapproach to life rather than oh,
I'm gonna sit there now for 15minutes and I'm gonna, you know,
and then the rest of my day goeson and I never think of
meditation.
So, like your whole life, it'skind of sounds cliche, but your
whole life becomes a practice, Ithink, as you get deeper.
SPEAKER_03 (08:31):
Is that yeah, yeah, that's really well said.
Yeah, it's kind of like a greatlike sound bite, though.
Like it's not, you know, beforeI was just in my head, you know,
now like it's in my whole life.
Yeah, it feels much moreintegrated that way.
And I think that's one of thethings that a lot of us find
through mindfulness practicesthat in the beginning it can
(08:54):
seem a little heady, like youknow, focus on say you're
breathing at the nostrils orfocus on something and and maybe
we visualize something, butreally the intention is to bring
this embodied awareness toeverything, you know, all the
time.
And you know, the Buddha saidthat there's only one thing you
(09:14):
you can do here with all thesepractices that I teach, only one
thing you can do 24-7, andthat's mindfulness, you know,
this gentle awareness of ourexperience.
So it really is meant to befully integrated.
And I love how it sounds likeyou're you don't have a like one
(09:35):
practice that you only do.
It sounds like you're open toanything that works.
It sounds like in incorporatingthese different practices from
ancient wisdom traditions aswell as things that have kind of
been more popular lately.
You know, we you and I talkedabout muse headbands and you
know, even using AI to supportus.
So I'm looking forward to tolearning about some of your
(09:58):
research and and practice withwith those things too.
But I'd like to segue first intolike how you got involved in
bringing mindfulness to academiaand what your interests are in
bringing mindfulness to studentsand teachers and what you're
seeing these days with that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
Sure.
So it started with in graduateschool, but it was during my
master's degree work that I dida pilot study with a professor
where we looked at usingmindfulness meditation.
They did some yoga, and it waswith elementary students that I
was teaching at the time.
So it started there, and we dida pilot with elementary students
to see how it would help themwith their stress and their
(10:36):
focus.
And it was a very small, I don'tthink it was a like a
well-constructed study, but itwas a start.
And then in my dissertation,when I went for my doctoral
degree at University of SouthFlorida, my dissertation
involved mindfulness.
As I was working with studentteachers, I was I was coaching
student teachers or what theysay, supervising them to go into
(10:57):
the classroom, and I wasincorporating mindfulness
techniques into that practice tosee how that would help me
prepare the teachers.
So then that continued.
But I think I really found myresearch agenda, my focus, my
calling, if you will, was I wentmy first academia job was at a
private college in Georgia, andI taught a lot of undergrad
(11:20):
classes, and they would come inand they were very, very
stressed out.
They were just, you know,overwhelmed.
They looked at like very tensein their face, and they come on
and they're on their cell phone,they're very distracted.
And I immediately realized Ineeded to do something before I
started class.
I had to kind of create like asegue, right?
Or a space for them to maybedecompress, to center.
(11:43):
I need to do something.
So I just drew on my background.
My background was, hey, I'vebeen meditating for a couple of
decades, you know, at least 20years at that point.
I said, let me let me try somemeditation, some techniques and
mindfulness to see how thatworks with them.
So I took out, I have it behindme, but I took, you know, like a
singing bowl or you know, one ofthe little meditation bowls, and
I and I just rang it.
(12:04):
You know, they would come toclass and I rang it and I told
them to just listen.
I said, just stop and listen,you know, like you listen to
nature or something.
Like just stop, just stopeverything.
Put your cell phone down andjust just listen.
I invited them.
I'm inviting you to just listen.
And and they looked at me reallyweird.
It didn't go over, like, youknow, this was very
non-traditional.
So they looked at me like, oh,it's with the skies, a little
(12:26):
bit, you know, a kookyprofessor.
But I stuck with it.
Then I would come in and ringthe ring the bowl and then Sean,
what I would do is tell them,pay attention to your breath.
Like just bring awareness toyour breath.
You know, don't try to doanything, don't try to
manipulate it, but just be awareof the breath going in and out.
So then I would do that for acouple of minutes, and then that
seemed to help some of them, andthen they would just seem a
little bit more settled when westarted class, and they just
(12:49):
evolved.
And I would try maybe a love andkindness meditation, or we would
go outside, do a walkingmeditation through the quad.
So it evolved like that.
But what kind of happenedorganically was other faculty
saw what I was doing, and I wasstarting to collect data.
I was starting to interview themand collect data on their
experiences, the students thatis so the faculty said, Hey, I
want to try that.
(13:09):
So probably about six, sevenother faculty started doing it
in their classes, and they alsocollected data.
And then we would compare notes.
We would say, What are theyexperiencing?
You know, what's working, what'snot working?
That formed the basis of myfirst book, was kind of like a
field guide of like, okay, Iwant to put meditation in my
classroom on a simplemindfulness exercise.
Where do I begin?
(13:30):
What do I say?
What do I do if they resist?
If they don't want to do it,what do I do?
You know, what's plan B?
So that became the book.
And then that continued toexpand where I said, okay, I
started to realize undergradseverywhere have a lot of mental
health challenges.
They have higher rates of stressthese days, high rates of
depression, higher rates ofanxiety.
(13:52):
I said, these are tools.
And I started realizing otherpeople were doing, you know,
mindfulness interventions withundergrad undergraduates.
So then I expanded.
And then when I got to theUniversity of Central Florida, I
really pushed to continue to dothe same kind of research of
students in the classroom, butalso mental health outcomes,
like let's measure their stresslevel, let's measure their
(14:13):
anxiety, let's measure theirwell-beings, you know, these
kind of statistical outcomes, aswell as their experiences,
meaning how do they perceivethese practices, what are the
potential barriers that they seecoming.
So I just really continue toexpand and trying different
things, love and kindness, likeyou had mentioned, so we brought
in the Muse.
So trying what we would calldigital mindfulness, where they
(14:33):
would wear a neurofeedbackheadband, and that would guide
them through a meditation withan app, and then we would
collect data on that and see howthat's working.
I have grants in for virtualreality.
We haven't got that equipmentyet, but I wanted to test um
some of the virtual realitymeditations with them.
So just really, you know,expanding and just saying, how
can we use these ancient tools,these ancient traditions in a
(14:58):
way, in a way in the currentcontext that helps these
students not just not justde-stress, but I want them to
awaken their potential.
I tell these young people, Isay, you have incredible energy,
you have credible awareness, youhave incredible potential.
You might have not been toldthat, right?
You may have not, the culturemight have not nurtured that,
but you have that.
(15:18):
And let me show you some toolsthat if you consistently do them
over time, like I found in myown life, then that will, you
will grow.
You will you will start to tapsome of that hidden, you know,
that inner potential.
Like Miyagi, back to Mr.
Like Mr.
Miyagi told Daniels, son, right?
But I mean, really, I really do.
I mean, the science shows it.
The science shows that thesekind of practices tap parts of
(15:41):
the brain and parts of thenervous system and the
physiology that are maybe lyingdormant, you know, that we're
just not we're not using to theextent or capacity that we could
use them.
So I want these young people tofeel empowered.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
Beautiful.
Well, Steve, so I love that yougather data as a part of this,
and I think that data collectinggoes a long way in academia and
also in organizations and mostsecular situations, you know,
the powers that be are gonnawant to see data that like
there's some benefit here, andthat it's not just you know,
(16:16):
some rogue teacher talkingabout, you know, stillness.
It's it's you know, like whatare the benefits here?
Are this what what are the saymore objective or quantitative
based data?
And then what are what's thequalitative, like experiential,
subjective, perceptual data?
Like, and you know, is thisworth investing five minutes at
(16:40):
the beginning of every class todo?
And how does the data even alignwith our mission, with whatever
our mission is?
So I'm curious if you'd be ableto share, say, just a couple
bullet points on like some ofthe data that you've found
either in that first iterationor since then, like what was
maybe surprising?
(17:01):
Did it impact grades?
Um, is there a sweet spot interms of how much you know time
you meditate in the beginning ofa class?
Anything that you can kind ofshare that might be helpful for
our audience?
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Sure.
So my graduate assistant, she'sshe's graduated and moved on,
but we we went through probably,you know, 60 studies or so
looking at the my what we wouldcall mindfulness-based
interventions withundergraduates.
And the conclusion, what wefound was it was definitely
effective in reducing stress.
(17:36):
What we would call, we theymeasure what we call perceived
stress.
So the outcome of stress wentdown or improved, anxiety was
reduced, depression wasgenerally reduced.
So as far as the mental healthbenefits, mindfulness
interventions in college, youknow, college-based seem pretty
(17:57):
effective.
They they have they have apositive outcome on students'
mental health.
That's not just my review, butif you look at other systematic
reviews, mindfulness has beenfound to be maybe the most
potent intervention in highered.
It's a it's definitely uh in thetop one or two.
But as far as academics, it's alittle shakier.
(18:19):
It's hot what we found in ourreview is it was hard to say
that it improved grades or quizscores or tests.
In some studies it did, and thenin some studies they couldn't
replicate it and it didn't.
So it was a little bit more on,you know, not as less conclusive
as far as like, does it improveacademics?
(18:40):
And I think additional researchhas to be done there.
There hasn't, and there hasn'tbeen as much research focused on
the academics as the mentalhealth, and it's probably just
because of you know, mentalhealth rates, you know, kind of
skyrocketing from pre, you know,the pandemic times.
So more work needs to be done onthe academic side.
As far as qualitative, studentsdo report a lot of the same
(19:00):
experiences as the mental healthoutcomes.
So they'll say things like, Ifeel calmer, I feel more
relaxed.
And this is whether they do itin like a classroom setting, or
maybe they do it like at aworkshop, you know, a workshop
as part of the college wellnesscenter.
They'll generally report verypositive experiences for the
most part, you know, calmer,less anxiety, I feel more
(19:22):
focused, I feel more centered.
There is only a small percentthat would have what we would
call adverse effect.
I mean, that can happen.
There are some where it almostbackfires, or it doesn't seem to
work for them, but it's a small,I don't have the exact number in
front of me, but it's a small,smaller percentage.
Uh what we what we do find inthat literature, though, the
qualitative, is they do describea lot of barriers, what we call
(19:44):
barriers to practice.
So the number one is they'll saythings like lack of time.
College students will say, Idon't have time to do
mindfulness, I don't have timeto sit there and meditate.
They will also not perceive thevalue of it.
So they'll see it.
One study that I'm on the thirdyear of following some of the
same students at the smallcollege.
(20:05):
And they're, as far as at leastlast year, what they told me was
they did not have time to sitthere.
They have homework, they havefriends, they have work, right?
They're like, I don't have timefor this stuff.
So they what we the way weinterpret that is they don't see
the value in it.
Because someone could make thesame argument, say, I don't have
time, I don't know, to go to thegym, I don't have time, you
(20:27):
know, to go for a run orsomething.
You can make that argument foralmost anything that's
beneficial to you.
So they don't see the value inmindfulness meditation.
They understand it in a waywhere it's going to be giving
back results or improving theirlife in some way.
And then other barriers would beit's difficult.
I can't sit there with mythoughts.
It's too much distraction.
(20:47):
I can't find a quiet place to dothis.
And less this happens less now,but it could be like a conflict
with religion or this is weird.
My friends or family think I'mweird, right?
I'm strange because I practicethis esoteric.
You know, that's less common nowbecause it's become you know
much more mainstream.
So you have like these positiveoutcomes, but you still have why
I pointed it out, Sean, is thatyou still have these barriers
(21:10):
that young people face that youknow, whether they're actual
barriers or men or perceivedbarriers, they they do have
barriers to practicingmeditation and mindfulness.
SPEAKER_03 (21:20):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's pretty common as it you
know becomes more mainstream.
I think um you know, we see alittle less of that.
But thanks for for sharing allthat.
I'm curious what kinds ofpractices have you found to be
say welcoming by the collegestudents?
(21:41):
Which practices have sayproduced some of the more the
better data or like theincreased scores or the
improvements, you know,data-wise, either quantitative
or qualitative.
And how like which practicewould practices would you
recommend?
Say either college educators andor just any educator, say
(22:06):
post-puberty or something.
SPEAKER_01 (22:08):
Yeah, as far as like the outcomes that I laid out,
the most commonly practiced oror studied intervention is is
John Cabot Zinn'smindfulness-based stress
reduction.
So what the techniques that thatincludes, like sitting
meditation, mindfulnessmeditation, maybe some yoga,
body scanning is a big that'sthe most commonly studied one
and probably intimate,implemented one in college
(22:30):
settings.
My work in the last year or two,we've looked at, we've looked at
this at for graduates,undergraduate students, and
graduate students.
There's love and kindnessmeditation.
It's very interesting becauseyou're moving from just having
students, you know, and we'vedone this where they come into
class and do this at the startof class, where they're moving
from just being aware of thebreath.
(22:51):
Now they're using visualizationand they're generating like that
positive intention.
So you're adding like it'sinteresting as you add layers
how people respond to that.
And overall, we've had some goodresults with stress and
mindfulness increasing andstress going down, and students
responding positively to itoverall, just in general.
But one caveat is when we did itwith graduate students, we had
(23:13):
to come in and we had these, youknow, the grad student doc
they're doctoral student,doctorate of education students,
and we had them do it at thefirst part of class.
And I was the one thatfacilitated, let them through.
When they did the love andkindness for what we might call
like level one, right?
Tier one, where they chose whatwe call an easy target, I don't
know, the family member or pet,a friend, you know, someone that
(23:33):
could just generate positiveemotion very easily, that
produced their their experiencewith that was of calmness and
focus, and they had thispositive energy going into
class.
But as soon as we moved Sean tolike a higher, like a more
difficult tier where they had todo love and kindness to like a
stranger, what they callneutral, I believe in the
Buddhist tradition, and then andthen a difficult person, forget
(23:55):
it, they they really struggleto.
So, like, I don't even like thisperson, and you want me to wish
them well and may you be happy.
So it almost backfired.
And the reason I bring that upis because if educators want to
put it in their classrooms, theyhave to be very careful of the
method or the technique that youuse.
If you're just trying to getstudents like to acclimate to
(24:17):
class, maybe feel moreconnected, or maybe you just
want to calm them down a littlebit from their busy hectic day.
Then you got to be veryintentional about what technique
you use.
And some of them, like this onein this case, what might
actually backfire.
It might actually create moretension and stress because they
don't have that level oftraining.
It is it they could benefit andit maybe increase, uh, let's say
(24:38):
they could increase compassionover time, but not necessarily
in their first couple minutes ofclass, right?
It just might be too much.
You're throwing like a, youknow, you're throwing an
avalanche.
This is an avalanche coming atthem, and you're telling them to
calm down.
So yeah, that that's why I wantto bring that example up because
that didn't work so well.
And the only time I've had anadverse effect, and I've taught
(24:59):
probably dozen, maybe at thispoint, hundreds of students,
different forms of meditationwas with a loving kindness.
And the student was told to doan easy target, but I think they
brought up someone who hadpassed away, maybe, maybe
grandma or someone had passedaway and had a complete, you
know, emotional meltdown, justcomplete reaction, and left the
class and went to the studentand had to talk to them about
(25:21):
what had happened.
So you have to be very aware,like the way you've the
instructions you give, and to beprepared and then let students
know if they start to feeloverwhelmed or too much emotion
or flooding, what they callflooding, that they have to
maybe stop the meditation.
So there's a lot of nuances toit.
And then I'll just end withthis, Sean.
Not a lot of research behind it,but box breathing, something
(25:44):
simple as breath work, like boxbreathing.
The graduates have noted thatbox breathing was very helpful.
So now this semester, weactually we just did consent
starting next whateverWednesday, we're gonna start
collecting data on that.
We're gonna have them do boxbreathing at the beginning of
class for a couple of minutes,and we're gonna see how that
(26:05):
works in uh several outcomes.
We're gonna look at stress,anxiety, well-being, and I think
they're somatic, you know, likephysical ailment, you know,
physical ailments, like do theyhave an ache or something like
that?
So box breathing, something assimple like that might be
recommended for to start rightyour classes, just have them
breathe deeply.
SPEAKER_03 (26:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that can be paired withmindfulness in the sense that we
can just sense the inhale, thepause, sense the exhale, the
pause, you know.
So bringing mindfulness to theexperience of box breathing and
notice what's happening in thebody as we do that, what's
(26:42):
happening with you know themind, and you know, notice the
the change over time.
Yeah, I I think breath work isso powerful, and it's something
that I'm increasingly interestedin in incorporating into you
know my teachings and my ownpersonal practice, and I think
it complements mindfulnesspractice really well because you
(27:04):
can do both at the same time.
And yeah, so yeah, boxbreathing, loving kindness.
I love what you said around, youknow, just being careful in how
we frame the teachings, thatwe're not, you know, trying to
overwhelm them or flood them,and that if it does start to
feel overwhelming or highlysensitive, you know, just back
(27:24):
off, you know, just do whatfeels safe and comfortable to
you, you know, let us know if ifthings are coming up for you.
And yeah, sometimes if we docompassion work or
self-compassion work for others,you know, it's it's not easy
because it it it inherentlyimplies that there's some some
(27:46):
degree of suffering involved forus to have compassion for.
And so, you know, forintroductory practices, you
know, just a simple sense ofcare for others, wishing them
well, and maybe starting withpeople who are not necessarily
going through, you know,traumatic experiences or
(28:09):
anything that's too painful.
Yeah.
And I like your approach ofexperimenting with different
practices and just kind ofseeing what works for different
populations.
You touched on something earlierthat I I'd like to follow up on,
which is that a lot of studentsdon't see the value of say
mindfulness.
And, you know, why would I spendfive minutes on this if I don't
(28:30):
feel like I have five minutes inmy day?
Like I'm trying to catch up on,you know, a million things in
life.
Why would I sit there and devotefive minutes to something that,
you know, doesn't seem obviouslybeneficial to me.
And so I'm curious if you foundany languaging around or
techniques of communicating whatthe value is for some of these
(28:55):
college students who feel likethey don't have time for this.
SPEAKER_01 (28:58):
That's a good question.
And that's still a challenge, Ithink, that I face.
I've tried all kinds of things,and some things seem to work a
little better than others.
The the problem, the underlyingproblem is mindfulness, like a
lot of things that are worthyour time, don't always produce
immediate benefit.
And we're in a society, right,where we're in a quick, you
(29:19):
know, we're in a superaccelerated society, right?
We want everything, you know,fast food and fast internet.
So they want fast results.
And sometimes that's not justnot the way the mind-body system
works.
It can take some, you know,consistent training or practice.
So you can use analogies like ifyou were to get fit, you would
maybe not go to the gym a day ortwo or even a week, right?
(29:41):
And then notice results.
But there is kind of thattipping point where all of a
sudden you start noticing, Idon't know, more tone muscle or
your aerobic capacity expands.
So you can use analogies likethat.
You can tie it to academics andyou could kind of show them
maybe the benefits of being ableto sit in class and to focus.
And to rein their awareness in.
(30:02):
So you can tie, like if astudent's interest in academics,
you can tie it.
So you tie it to whatever thatcelebrities help too.
They're very much into, youknow, entertainment and
celebrities.
So if there is, I think it wasLeBron James maybe was sitting
there meditating between, youknow, he was maybe doing some
kind of breath work orsomething.
When you can bring inhigh-profile people, and I'm not
(30:23):
saying they know, I'm not sayingthey're meditation masters, but
they are, they are icons.
They're people to young, they'repeople that attract young
people's attention.
So if you can show them thatthis celebrity or this pop
singer has this gruelingschedule where she travels
around the country doingconcerts, but she sustains
herself through this meditationor mindfulness practice,
(30:46):
sometimes that helps becausethey go, oh, okay, this must be
now this is valuable.
So I've used everything likethat.
So I've tried all kinds ofthings.
Anecdotes, other studenttestimonies as good.
So if you have a student thathas benefits and they start to
feel less stressed and theystart to feel like things are
getting better in their life,and they talk to the student.
(31:07):
So student to student worksreally well, almost like a
testimonial.
I've done that, and sometimesthey listen to that.
And then I'd also like to throwin, we have to keep so with that
in mind, it's good to maybeintroduce practices that are
brief, that maybe are powerful,like a breath, like a deep
breathing, a box breathing, orjust breath work, where they
just kind of feel an immediatesense of calmness or a change.
(31:30):
And it only maybe took a coupleminutes because then they might
be more apt to stick with thatand try that a little longer
because they felt some immediaterelief.
And then also things like yoga,what they call like meditation
on wheels, right?
So movement-based practice likeyoga.
Tai chi doesn't seem to sink toowell because it's too slow and
(31:50):
they have this stigma that it'slike just for old people.
I think it's those kind ofpractices are fantastic for
mindfulness, but I don't, Idon't think, see, college
students like in the quad doingTai Chi, but they a lot of them
do yoga.
A lot of them take yoga classesand then they'll do like a
mindfulness, you know, that whatis it where they lay down at the
end, you know, and just kind offeel the body and emotions and
that posture.
(32:11):
So those kind of practices toomight be almost like a vehicle,
a modern day vehicle to get themto develop awareness and
mindfulness.
So I think we just have to besuper flexible to try to make
like a soft sell, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:25):
Yeah.
Well, speaking of say modernpractices, you know, we've
touched on them use headband,you know, AI is there's
different applications fortherapy, coaching.
You know, I was using AI lastnight for support with some
things that I've been dealingwith.
So what's your take on that?
(32:46):
Because I know, you know, for alot of young people, there's a
real addiction with screens andtechnology.
And yet, you know, and so partof mindfulness and meditation
is, you know, sensing inward,kind of dropping connection with
our phones and screens, and yetthere are some positive effects
(33:10):
of some of these, you know, moretechnological applications.
So I'm I'm curious what yourtake on that is, what you've
seen helping college students,any considerations that you'd
like to share for collegestudents who maybe have this
question of how much tech shouldI use for mindfulness and
meditation?
SPEAKER_01 (33:30):
That's that's a great question.
It's a big, you know, that's afast moving and highly evolving
topic.
So I've written a book, I have abook coming out on that because
I researched it because I knewthis is really evolving.
Like this is, I really do thinkit is going to be the future.
Now, when I say that, it doesn'tmean I think that
technology-assisted meditationor prime body practice using
(33:50):
technology is necessarily goingto be better or always the way
to go.
It's just more prevalent.
So, in other words, meditationapps, I was just reading, they
make up like 96% of the mentalhealth wellness apps.
They dominate the mental healthapp industry right now,
meditation apps.
Now, that doesn't mean thatthat's you can't build it, bake
(34:12):
into that though, the statementthat they're more effective or
that's the way to learnmeditation, right?
Or and a lot of people drop out.
I think it's like half of themthat start the app, though, they
don't stick with the app.
So you have to be careful tosay, like, this is the wave of
the future.
I say this is the wave of thefuture, but it's very unknown.
It's very uncharted, and wedon't, and I don't know if it's
the most always the mostbeneficial way to go.
(34:33):
So it's like a double-edgedsword.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:36):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
So, so, so some some data on that or just some
findings are meditation apps doseem to work.
Like with college students,there are some positive outcomes
as far as reduced stress andthings like that.
It's not always as consistent.
And I think that body ofresearch is growing, but again,
sticking with the apps.
There's there's high levels ofdropout rates.
(35:00):
So it introduces people, likeyoung people get into introduced
to mindfulness through apps.
That is the way it is now beingdistributed.
Like that's the new game, butthey don't always stick with it.
One thing we have done that wasthat I find interesting is the
neurofeedback aspect.
Some of the apps have, you know,like they hook up to your
(35:20):
smartwatch or something likethat.
But we've tested theneurofeedback headbands.
We've done some pilots now withundergrads.
And I would say the bigdifference is when you're
sitting there and meditatingand/or you're sitting there
meditating, listening to aguided meditation, you don't
have live feedback.
You're listening to it andyou're following along, but you
might be wondering, am I doingthis right?
(35:42):
Am I on track?
Like, what's going on?
And these neurofeedback devicesthat we tested, they actually
read the brainwave activity ofthe participant, and then they
send back live feedback.
The way they do it in the onethat we used was uh they'll use
sound.
So you'll hear like rain, andthen the rain will increase if
you're just you know your brainwaves are, I guess, going more
(36:05):
towards the beta, you know, kindof high activity.
And then when you can bring itdown, slow it down to more what
we call an alpha state, which isa calmer brainwave state, the
rain will slow down.
You'll hear it start to calmdown, almost stop.
So that will give you feedback.
So then students say, oh, if Ibreathe deeper, or if I, you
know, slow my thought andbreathe deeper, whatever, and
(36:26):
change my physiology, I noticethe rain slows down.
So I'm gonna keep doing that.
I'm gonna use that feedbackright to adjust my practice.
And that was the big takeawaywas they can adjust their
practice on the dime.
And then that said, that's onlyone type of meditation, though.
They're doing just kind of amindfulness meditation, you
know.
So that's still kind of in theearly stages too, because it's
(36:47):
limited in the type ofmeditation instruction that the
students are getting.
But it is a whole new, it is awhole new world as far as live
feedback.
And then AI is now beingbrought, Sean, into these kind
of devices so that AI is nowgonna further personalize.
So it will collect data, let'ssay, on your meditation practice
(37:07):
and then tailor it orpersonalize it for your next
session.
So they'll start working withyou almost like a meditation
coach.
And I think those are also inthe early stages, but there is
those kind of things are beingdeveloped, and I think that's
the way it's headed, is whereyou're gonna have AI basically
teaching, directing you, andcoaching you towards what you
(37:30):
might call more mindful state ormeditation state, and then who
knows if that's better.
Who knows if that's gonna bebetter or not?
I've tried all those.
I don't know about if you triedthose some of these devices,
Sean.
I tried them all in them, and Ialways go back to my old school
traditional practice withoutdevices, other than listening to
a guided meditation.
SPEAKER_03 (37:50):
Sure, yeah.
I think they they all have theirplace, and I think that it's
helpful to try sitting byoneself without anything, try a
muse headband, uh, try someguided meditations, try live
in-person retreats, and toexperiment and see what what's
(38:11):
helpful for you in in say thephase of your life right now or
how you're feeling these days ingeneral, and to find a balance.
I think that having a potpourriof different styles and
practices are very helpful.
You know, try someloving-kindness practices,
self-compassion, concentrationpractice, mantras can be
(38:33):
helpful.
So, you know, tai chi.
I think just finding thatbalance is is really helpful.
And that's what I do.
I I I do different things eachday.
Um, sometimes I'll go through aphase where I really cultivate
one type of meditation for a fewweeks at a time, especially on
retreat.
But if you're only doing a museheadband, I would invite you to
(38:56):
consider you know, sprinkling insome other non-muse style
practices also, um, so that wedon't become like overly
dependent on an external deviceand that we also make room for
what you said earlier, is justintegrating it with our whole
life and not just the momentswhere I have my headband.
(39:17):
Uh, we interviewed uh ArielGarton, the founder and CEO of
Muse a couple weeks ago, andit's really amazing what uh the
headband can do these days, andyeah, it can be quite powerful
for a lot of folks.
So yeah, and I think AIC has itsplace too.
But you know, it's a tool, andyou know, let's not get overly
dependent on it and remember tofind that balance and being able
(39:41):
to listen to our own intuitionand and find our own wisdom as
well.
But yeah, I I I resonate withwith everything you're saying.
Steve, how can people get intouch with you?
What are you up to these days?
What sort of parting messagewould you like to share with our
community?
SPEAKER_01 (39:59):
Sure.
The best way to get in touchwith me, I'd say which is just a
university email, which issteve.haberlinucf, UCF for uh
universitycentralflorida.edu.
And that would be the best wayif they just want to shoot an
email and want to discussthings, or they want to, you
know, they're interested indoing a workshop with a book or
learning more about the books orsomething.
And the books are on Amazon.
(40:21):
You can just look there.
As far as what I'm up to thesedays, is just a lot of research.
We have a number of studies, uh,a couple of studies that are
going on currently, right now.
Uh they involve undergrads andgraduates shown with box
breathing.
And I've collaborated with, areyou familiar with Mark Devine?
He's the guy that coined boxbreathing.
He's did not, he's an AV SEALand he created a program called
(40:42):
Unbeatable Mind, or he's aformer Navy SEAL.
So his the story is hesupposedly coined the term box
breathing, and he also teachesother practices like yoga and
meditation.
So we're we're testing that withgrads and undergrads this fall
at the university to see if wecan adapt his program to you
know college to kind of acollege setting.
(41:03):
So that's some of the things I'mworking on.
See how that turns out.
But it's a it's it's a it's afun collaboration.
SPEAKER_03 (41:08):
So yeah.
That's exciting.
Great.
And we will maybe put your emailaddress in the show notes if
that's okay.
Sure, that'd be great for yourAmazon books so that people can
check out your work, get intouch with you, you know, to all
the college students out therelistening.
We feel for you.
We know it's hard.
SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
Yeah, that yeah, I forgot my parting message, Sean.
Yeah, that would yeah, yeah, wefeel for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, yeah, I would say it's hard,and the future is uncertain, but
you have enormous potential.
You have enormous potential.
And one of my teachers will say,You're like a redwood tree, you
know, that you you start off asa seed and you have this amazing
(41:50):
ability to just grow, grow, andgrow, right?
And in all ways, emotionally andyour awareness and your
creativity.
So I would, I would just, that'smy parting message, is you
really, you really are a redwoodtree.
You you have enormous potential.
You could just do enormousthings in your life, but you
have to, you have to findpractices to manage the stress,
to manage the distraction, tomanage all the things that
(42:12):
you're juggling in your life sothat you can, you know, you can
kind of let that energy out andyou can focus and do great
things, but you can.
You can really you can really doamazing things.
So don't feel you know beatendown by the culture right now.
SPEAKER_03 (42:26):
Yeah, beautiful.
Well, Steve, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
It was a pleasure speaking withyou and learning about all the
great things that you're doingfor students and teachers in uh
the college setting.
And we're rooting for you.
Keep up the great work.
SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
Thank you so much for having me on, show.
SPEAKER_03 (42:45):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (42:51):
Rince takes your laundry and hand delivers it to
your door, expertly cleaned andfolded, so you could take the
time once spent folding andsorting and waiting to finally
pursue a whole new version ofyou.
Like tea time you.
Or even this tea time you.
Or even tea time tea time teatime you.
(43:15):
So update on Dave.
It's up to you.
We'll take the laundry.
Rince, it's a time to be great.
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