July 1, 2025 • 26 mins
“You don’t have to come from parks to lead in parks. But you do have to embrace the culture, listen, and lead with purpose.”
Notable Moments
[00:02:00] Starting out as a seasonal worker builds a foundation
[00:03:40] Promoting park managers without prior experience
[00:05:18] Success stories of hiring from outside the park system
[00:08:48] Benefits of diverse backgrounds in leadership
[00:14:50] Importance of honoring legacy while bringing fresh ideas
[00:21:34] Staying close to your point of service
[00:23:00] Advice from Lee Cockerell: take notes and observe early
Can someone manage a park without ever having worked in one? Jody Maberry and Phil Gaines say “yes” and explain why in this listener-inspired episode. They received an email from Freddie, a new park manager in New York with no prior park experience. Together they unpack how fresh perspectives, paired with respect for legacy, can benefit any park system. Phil shares stories of success when hiring “off the street” and reinforces the importance of staying close to your point of service. Jody offers insight from his own unconventional journey into parks and highlights why diversity of thought can be just as valuable as field experience. Whether you’re brand new or decades deep, this episode is a reminder to lead with intention, learn from the people you serve, and never lose sight of your North Star.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Park Leader show where we are changing the landscape
of leadership and parks and conservation. I'm your host,
Jody Mayberry. And back by popular demand.
I say that every time because it's true. The retired
director of South Carolina State Parks often called a park
rangers park ranger. The semi regular guest
(00:24):
co host of the Park Leader Show, Phil Gaines. Oh,
Phil, it's so good to have you back. Oh, Jody, it's good to be back.
Summer season is here. Parks are busy, a lot going on
and, and I know people who are, you know, doing all the
stuff that park rangers do this time of year with lots of
visitors. Grass that needs cutting, bathrooms need
(00:46):
cleaning, programs need doing. So but it's a good time of
year, a lot of stuff going on. Well, my daughter has
returned to her role as a seasonal park
aide at the park she grew up in. And I always find, well, yesterday was
her first day, this is her first week back. So this hasn't
happened yet, but last season, it always fascinated me how she
(01:08):
would come home and tell me all these stories about the park
and this is how this works, and this is how that works. And I never
reminded her, like. Yeah, I know. I've.
I just let her tell me all of her stories about the park. Yeah.
And, you know, part of these, that reminiscent of those things is that
it's, you know, it's because we're park people and we're different, and that's a good
(01:31):
thing. And so I started my park career at
Kings Mountain State park and on the state
line of North Carolina and South Carolina a long time ago.
But I started the week before Memorial Day,
which is. I don't know if that's the best time of year to start out
your career or not, but it's like you're just baptized by fire.
(01:53):
But every year when I get close to Memorial Day,
my family always gets tired of me reminiscing about, you know, this is when
I started ever how many years ago it was. And I tell stories
about. But it's like, you know, this, this time of year, why it's
hectic and everything, man. It's full of memories and, and
fun things and cherish those because they'll stay with you
(02:16):
forever, even after you've retired. You know, you, you
don't remember, you don't forget those first weeks of
summer and all that goes with that. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I know
she'll have a good time. Yeah, she'll have a great time. She, whether
she knows it or not, she's a parky. Yeah. Yeah. Now
she's, she's experienced, man. She's already done this one time. She, she, she
(02:38):
knows everything probably this year. Well, she came home yesterday
excited about the vehicle she gets to drive this year. And I said,
hey, that's the benefit of being a returning
parkade. You get first dibs on better vehicles.
Love that. So, Phil, I have an email
that was sent to me. If you ever want to send in any comments
(03:00):
or questions or just compliments about Phil's
mustache, send an email to jody@park leaders.com j
y park leaders.com this email comes
from Freddy from New York State Parks.
So I, I want to walk you through this email,
Phil, because I just find it. There's a lot going on here, all of it
(03:22):
great. So Freddie starts out saying that he is
unique in his agency. I actually think unique in
parks as a whole because without. He got hired as
a park manager without prior experience
in parks. I want to take a moment to touch on that, Phil. I've
noticed I do not, unfortunately, I would like to change that. I don't know
(03:45):
much about New York state parks yet, but I have seen
in the past that they have promoted maintenance
to park manager positions. And where I was, you just didn't
see that happen. Now here, somebody who has no park
experience promoted to a park manager. I'm going to
walk through the rest of that email, Phil, but I wanted your take on that.
(04:09):
What. And I mean this in a good way, not negative. What
good can come? Tell me the good things you see
in promoting someone without park experience,
someone from the outside that was not a park ranger, to being a
park manager. That's a great question. And we
typically, in my career in South Carolina, we would typically
(04:31):
promote from within. But I had a
couple of experiences in my career where we
hired a park manager. The term we used to use was
off the streets. And it didn't mean like, you know, they were
wandering around looking for something, but they had no park experience
and they came in. So I did that a couple of times,
(04:54):
and both of the times that I did it,
it worked out really good and I was really pleased.
One was at a very large state park that was kind of a resort state
park that we were kind of pressured into
looking at someone from the outside, and I really didn't
want to do it. But we went through the process and we
(05:16):
interviewed and did all that. And this person from the outside
was amazing, did a great job. Ended up being a really good friend of
mine and worked for us for A number of years. And
to get back to your question is, I think some
of the positive things are, is it. They bring a different
perspective and kind of don't bring baggage
(05:38):
and what I call scar tissue from, you know, that's the way we've
always done it, or we can't do that. And so
there's fresh ideas, fresh perspective, and I think. I
think that's a positive thing. And I think it's also an opportunity
for park leaders who bring that new person in
to kind of indoctrinate them into some of our
(06:01):
culture and some of the reasons we do what we do and think
like we do. So the combination of having
someone with a fresh new ideas, fresh new perspective, and looking at,
you know, problems that we've looked at or opportunities that we've
looked at kind of through that same
lens that we've been looking at, of saying, well, we've never done it that, or
(06:23):
we can't do that or this. So you get that fresh perspective in,
and then at the same time, you're able to offer kind of why
our culture does what we do and indoctrinate. And when it works,
it really works really well. And so for
our friend in New York is. I think he'll know if it
works really quick, because you'll know if this is
(06:45):
what you're supposed to do, and if you feel that this is what
you're supposed to do, and if you're able to do it and your
agency is able to do it, I think you'll know pretty quick.
But from his perspective and from the agency's perspective,
if you kind of mesh those two new
things, those dynamics, it's not always there. I think you can get a really
(07:08):
good outcome. I know we did. And now, you know, I've seen
that happen a lot with park directors who
came in and had, you know, no experiences in the
park world and came in and embraced it,
brought new ideas and new perspective, and it worked out really, really
good. I've also saw park directors who come in
(07:30):
who didn't embrace it the right way and didn't kind of do it, and it
says, no, this is not for me. I can't get anything done. And didn't last
long. So I think it's got to work on both ends. I think you've got
to be open to, so what is the culture of this
organization? And why do they do crazy things
or why do they feel this way? And, you know, and in a place
(07:52):
like New York, which is. Has this tremendous, tremendous
legacy in the State park world of, you know, being one
of the first state park systems in the country with, with Niagara
Falls. And so, I mean, it's. You would think if you immerse
yourself and you find out all of a sudden that you're a part of this
legacy that dates back, you know, 100 years,
(08:13):
that's pretty cool right there. And you bring in this new, fresh
perspective and new ideas and looking at opportunities
differently, that could be a really good combination, you know,
And I think from a New York perspective, New York is,
you know, has, has embraced state parks for a long,
long time with, you know, one of arguably the first state
(08:36):
park. So that's, that could be a real, a real winning
combination if, if you embrace it as a long answer.
But I started thinking more about it and it's like, you know, it could be
a really good opportunity. Yeah, it's a good answer. His background
comes from boy Scouts and ymca, so no
direct park experience, but I would say that's still park
(08:58):
experience. That's still the right kind of people experience.
My background, I came from the outside. Now I was not brought in as
a park manager. I was brought in as an entry level ranger. Prior to that,
I had been a financial analyst. I sat at a desk,
I wore a shirt and tie. I measured interest rate risk.
That is not what you expect out of a park ranger. But I will
(09:21):
say it gave me such a different
perspective. Once I was a park ranger, one I
felt so lucky to have the opportunity to
take a big pay cut to become a park ranger. It was like a
boyhood dream. I loved it. When I got into
a couple promotions and more into the management side, it
(09:43):
just gave me a different perspective than other people around me. And I
think that can only benefit parks. To have people
that now park people are great. Parkies are my favorite. It
does benefit though, to have people come in from the outside to bring
different perspective, different viewpoints. We hear a lot about
diversity in parks. What we don't often talk about when we're
(10:06):
talking diversity is diversity of viewpoint, diversity
of experience. And that's only going to help parks to bring people
from the outside into management positions. Yeah, I agree
with you 100% and I think your, your story is a great story because
so like our friend from New York who's
YMCA and Boy Scout, so that tells me just a little bit
(10:28):
that he kind of caught this bug of the out of doors and
recreation in that early in his life with scouting and that kind of stuff.
So he has a little bit of foundation. But if you know, like the bean
counter that you were is like, I don't know if this guy's going to make
it. But, you know, once you start having those. That
dialogue with people and you, you know, that diversity of where you come
(10:50):
from, and it's a whole different perspective that opens up for people that
I think is healthy for the organization and also
healthy for the person who took the job if they do it right. So
I'll tell you a real quick story about diversity in the workplace
that. So while you're traveling all over the world
and going below the equator to go do cool
(11:12):
stuff, I spent a cool trip
to Wyoming. And I went to Wyoming to speak
at Wyoming's State Park Conference. And it was more than the State Park
Conference. It was for their agency and have a very diverse agency. So they
brought everybody at this conference. And I came from a
background of working in a diverse park agency where we had
(11:35):
tourism and marketing and that kind of stuff. The Wyoming system had
a lot of diversity as well. And so they had all these people at
this conference, and they were archivist and
data people and all kinds of different aspects, not
just park folks. And they're kind of working through this thing.
And one of the things that I observed was it was fascinating,
(11:57):
you know, when you took down the guardrails and started
asking people that you normally don't do, they have different
way of looking at things in a different viewpoint. And so while
I was at this conference, I saw them starting coming up with solutions
and ideas that would have never come up if you didn't
have these people that kind of, from a part person's
(12:19):
perspective, you're saying, do they really belong in here? And it's like, yeah,
they do. And now they're bringing this different perspective. So I think that's a lot
of the same thing. So they were one of my funny stories
that I told them. And if they're listening, I hope my new friend
will appreciate this. So we got up for breakfast. And so there's a lot of
the people who worked in archives, and they were archivist and, you
(12:42):
know, like library people. The state library people were there. And so
I'm a part guy, and I'm one of those part guys, is
an extrovert type A personality, talks all the time
and everything. So we're having breakfast, and I'm sitting down with this group,
and I go over to the table and sit down and eat breakfast with them.
And I say, hey, how are y' all doing? I'm Phil from South Carolina. And
(13:04):
then I Go. Just start talking and everything. And I do
that for, like, two mornings in a row, and they're. They're barely talking.
And I'll say, so what do you do and how do you do that? And
they were librarians and archivists. And then, like,
so in the south, we have this saying that I've used before. It's like, bless
your heart. And so bless your heart in the south is not always a
(13:25):
good thing. So after day two, I learned from
people who worked in the library and an archives and was
archivist that finally one of them says, Mr.
Gaines, thank you for eating breakfast with this. But we're
introverts. That's like, what? And they said,
we're introverts. And then after about day three, I learned it. Saying,
(13:46):
we're introverts means, I don't want to talk. Please be quiet.
That's a nice way of saying, I don't want to talk. Please be quiet. But
the fascinating reason I tell that story is after the third
day we're being with those guys, it kind of opened up, and they gave me
a whole new perspective of how important their role and their
function was. So, you know, and how that could improve
(14:09):
what they're trying to do in Wyoming, and had a great trip with great
people, great friends. But to go back to the point about
hiring people that are not internal always
is that I think you got to find ways to get
a different perspective, or you become
stagnant, and you miss some opportunities that
(14:31):
could be out there because you're kind of, you
know, in this mode of looking things through the same lenses that
you did. So there's that balance to where, if you're from the
outside coming in, part of your job is to do your homework
and to find out what kind of legacy you're coming into.
And, you know, if you. In a park system that's been around for
(14:54):
100 years or more, that's a strong legacy that you're now a part
of. And so I think it's important for the person who's
coming in to go in with eyes wide open, learn about the
culture, learn about the legacy component.
And then from the agency standpoint, I think, is for you to go in
with this person can show me things that I don't even know what I'm looking
(15:16):
for, because they see the world a little bit different. And somehow you.
You do that magic where you mesh those two things together and you do
really good stuff. Like in South Carolina, when we were, you
know, our park system is in a marketing Agency with tourism.
And, you know, we certainly look at things through a different
lens when we're with the tourism people. And one of the things that I learned
(15:38):
from being in a tourism agency and in a marketing agency
is there was. When I would go down to the. To the agency director's
office or with the marketing tourism folks, it was like there
was never, no, we can't do that. It was like, how can we do
that? Or, why can't we do that? And sometimes when you're stuck in,
like, regulatory world, it's like, no, we can't do that. And
(16:00):
so if you broaden that out, it's like, I was never told we couldn't
do something. And I think part of that was that. That I lived in a.
In a tourism world where it's like, why can't we do that? Or how can
we do that? Or, let's think about that. So I think it's
a positive thing. And so there's a good balance, because you want
to keep that culture and those traditions, and you want people to stay with you.
(16:22):
And so. But I think. I think it's a good balance.
So I wish I knew more about New York state parks and just what
I've read, but I've not experienced a lot of New York state
parks, except for in online and in articles and
stuff. But I know they have some really amazing state parks, and it's huge
park system. It's kind of like, you know, some big states that are
(16:44):
like, you know, just huge, huge park systems with lots of
issues, lots of opportunities. So that's. That's pretty fascinating
that they're doing that. I do your homework and know what,
you're part of a big legacy, and then the agency hopefully will embrace that
and look for good things coming out of the Empire State.
This is all great, Phil. I. I liked what you said, and it does
(17:07):
help. Having that outside perspective helps.
I showed up at parks not at all
thinking, we can't do that. That's not how we do things around here.
I quite often would say, well, why not just help me
understand why can't we do this? Why does this work this way?
And I think, even though I may have been viewed as a pest
(17:30):
always asking that, I think there's a benefit to having to
explain why we do things, why we've always done it this way,
why things that you're certain are the way they are.
So even having someone from the outside, no matter what level they're at,
helps with that. We actually. My guess is, Jody, you had
Some people that embraced that when you said, why not? And they
(17:52):
would give you details and work through it. And then probably,
reality check here. Probably there are some people who, saying, just
do what I tell you to do. And so you got to work through the
negative parts of it, because there probably will be. I'm sure you face
negative people of, like, when you were coming in there, like, you don't know
anything about what we do. Yeah, that's right. There was some of that. And
(18:15):
I was lucky enough. The manager that took a risk to hire
me was pretty open to. Like, I, for example, I
would say, why do we send this report in? What does it do? And
he. Sometimes he would tell me, but I know this is not very
park, like, maybe not very government. Like, he'd say,
don't send it in. See what happens. Then you'll find out who it's important
(18:38):
to because you'll hear from them. And really doing things
like that really helped because then I said, oh, all right. I don't
send this report in. I get a call from this person, and when I did,
they would explain why it's important to send it in. So even
things like that, just trying things a little different, you'll
find out someone will give you a little tap on the wrist and explain
(19:00):
why if you try something different and it's not going to work that
way. Well, Phil, we've had a great conversation already, and I've. I've
only made it, like one. One little part into the email, so
I'm going to bounce off a couple other parts. I want to make sure that
I. I highlight that Freddie said he found the Park
Leader show after his interview, and it's been one of the
(19:22):
greatest resources for him, helped him transition into the new
position. Because you know this too, Phil. There's. He says there's
not many resources out there, so I'm fortunate to have come across the Park
Leader Show. It helped me hit the ground running. Every
show I've listened to has given me great insight into what my job entails and
has helped to mold my vision for what I want to see in the park.
(19:44):
I lead. I love to hear that, Phil, because I think that means we're
doing something right with the Park Leader show, that we can take an
outsider that's new to parks, have him listen to the park show
and him say, okay, now I get it. I get all the.
These are my words, not his. I get the hype. I get the purpose. I
have a better understanding of why we do what we do. Yeah, you
(20:07):
know, you got to stay relevant in every job you do. And so one of
the ways you stay relevant is you read, you listen to podcasts, and you make
these connections. And, you know, and I'm sure every state
has places where you can connect through your agency,
through your state recreation and park association,
and then through the Park Leaders show, and we hope, drop some
(20:29):
tidbits and ideas of where to get information
and. And hopefully we'll. We'll continue to do some of
those tidbits out there. All right, Phil. It goes on to say,
you and Phil, you being me, Jody and Phil, have helped
cement my passion for parks. Truly humbled to be able to be a
steward for my park. And I'm most excited to build a positive culture
(20:52):
where we never forget our mission to provide an essential service
to the community. I will tell you, Phil, that gives me hope
for Freddie's future as a park manager. That. That's what he
shows up as with his attitude towards his park and his new role.
Yeah. And, you know, going back to what we talked about earlier, it's. It's. That
sounds like he's done his part. You learn about that culture and
(21:14):
that legacy, and it's like you become a difference maker.
So I'll throw out one of my philosophies of,
when you thinking about this stuff, one of the things, no matter how high you
go up, I always used to say, stay close to your point of service.
And if you stay close to your point of service, then that. That always keeps
you inspired. Why am I here? What is your purpose? What is your North Star?
(21:36):
And if you stay close to your point of service, you never forget
that. You know, it's not about all this stuff you're doing in the office
and all that other kind of stuff. It's about is that stuff that happens out
at the park, on the trails, in the campground, in the swimming areas,
and the programs on Saturday nights and clean
bathrooms. So piece of advice to everybody as you
(21:57):
going through this, always, always stay close to your point of service,
and you'll know you'll never forget why you're doing this. Yeah, that
is great advice, Phil. And it's funny that you gave us a
philosophy right there, because one of the next things
he said is he talks about taking notes during the show and then said,
Phil especially always has great lines. So there you go.
(22:21):
One more piece to cover on this, Phil. He said some of the best advice
you gave was to not start and enact major changes
immediately, but rather to make changes over time. I would
Say, as an outsider, that is more important
than if you were park ranger who got promoted to like,
it would not go well if you were a park ranger that became park
(22:43):
manager and then tried to implement changes. But being
from the outside, at least spend 30 days
just watching, listening, answering questions, sitting
where park visitors sit, walking the trails. That should be
the first 30 days as an outsider. And just take notes. Just
recently, I was with Lee Cockrell, the
(23:05):
retired executive vice president of Walt Disney World. He was telling someone,
when you're first on the job, be quiet,
walk around and take notes. Because when you are fresh on
a job, you will see things in a way you will never
see them again, because you get a first impression, a
first reaction, and that's what you should be writing down and noticing
(23:28):
because you'll never view it the same way again. Yeah,
that's. That's great advice. And then after you reach that first
impression thing, throughout your career, it's always important
to walk, drive, to see your park through the eyes of a
visitor. And you know, again, that's that going back to that philosophy
of stay close to your point of service. Don't ever get so far away
(23:50):
from it that you forget where, where the action is, where the, you
know, where the soft spot is. Whereas, you know, it's why we do what we
do is when you. You got to hear kids
laughing and screaming and smell the campfires and all
that kind of good stuff and. But, yeah, I always used to say that,
you know, your first year is you really just
(24:12):
learning and observing the whole year. I mean, you don't stand
complacent. You do some stuff, but you're absorbing,
you're taking a lot of notes. And so your first year is this
real learning experience. And then the second year, you're a little
bit better and you're able to start doing stuff because you know what's coming,
because you've experienced in the first year, and you know that
(24:34):
4th of July starts here and these kind of things. Whereas
if this is your first Fourth of July coming up, you have no idea what
to expect next year, you'll know a little bit better and you'll be a little
bit prepared. So first year, you're observing, you're taking
notes, you're gaining credibility, you're. You're building
relationships. Second year, you know what's coming, so you're getting to be
(24:56):
a little bit more strategic. And then, you know, by the end of your
second year, when you get ready for your third year, that's when you start
making you know, real things happen. And you're
strategic in doing it and not just doing it because I'm here and I'm supposed
to do stuff. Now you kind of know what to expect and, and you've
built relationships and, and you're, you're really thinking
(25:18):
strategically, which is really hard to do in the summer season
because what you're really trying to do in really busy parks is
to make it through the day. And as much as you plan tomorrow,
it's not going to go as planned. So take notes,
like what you're saying, what Lee says. Take notes and observe because
this first year is really critical. Well, this episode
(25:40):
turned out to be great. We had a great email, we had a
philosophy, we had some great advice from Phil
himself. So I'm gonna sum it up here with one
question to Phil. You can make it yes or no if
you want. Phil, do you need park experience to manage a park?
No. No. There you have it, Phil, that could have been a one
(26:03):
minute episode just with that one question and answer. All
right, Phil, it was great to have you back on the show. I, I know
we, I stepped away and did some other interviews and some fun stuff
without you, but it's always a treat to have you back. Always good to be
back, Jody. All right, thanks, Phil. And thank you for listening to the park
Leader show.
Welcome to the Park Leader show where we are changing the landscape
of leadership and parks and conservation. I'm your host,
Jody Mayberry. And back by popular demand.
I say that every time because it's true. The retired
director of South Carolina State Parks often called a park
rangers park ranger. The semi regular guest
(00:24):
co host of the Park Leader Show, Phil Gaines. Oh,
Phil, it's so good to have you back. Oh, Jody, it's good to be back.
Summer season is here. Parks are busy, a lot going on
and, and I know people who are, you know, doing all the
stuff that park rangers do this time of year with lots of
visitors. Grass that needs cutting, bathrooms need
(00:46):
cleaning, programs need doing. So but it's a good time of
year, a lot of stuff going on. Well, my daughter has
returned to her role as a seasonal park
aide at the park she grew up in. And I always find, well, yesterday was
her first day, this is her first week back. So this hasn't
happened yet, but last season, it always fascinated me how she
(01:08):
would come home and tell me all these stories about the park
and this is how this works, and this is how that works. And I never
reminded her, like. Yeah, I know. I've.
I just let her tell me all of her stories about the park. Yeah.
And, you know, part of these, that reminiscent of those things is that
it's, you know, it's because we're park people and we're different, and that's a good
(01:31):
thing. And so I started my park career at
Kings Mountain State park and on the state
line of North Carolina and South Carolina a long time ago.
But I started the week before Memorial Day,
which is. I don't know if that's the best time of year to start out
your career or not, but it's like you're just baptized by fire.
(01:53):
But every year when I get close to Memorial Day,
my family always gets tired of me reminiscing about, you know, this is when
I started ever how many years ago it was. And I tell stories
about. But it's like, you know, this, this time of year, why it's
hectic and everything, man. It's full of memories and, and
fun things and cherish those because they'll stay with you
(02:16):
forever, even after you've retired. You know, you, you
don't remember, you don't forget those first weeks of
summer and all that goes with that. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I know
she'll have a good time. Yeah, she'll have a great time. She, whether
she knows it or not, she's a parky. Yeah. Yeah. Now
she's, she's experienced, man. She's already done this one time. She, she, she
(02:38):
knows everything probably this year. Well, she came home yesterday
excited about the vehicle she gets to drive this year. And I said,
hey, that's the benefit of being a returning
parkade. You get first dibs on better vehicles.
Love that. So, Phil, I have an email
that was sent to me. If you ever want to send in any comments
(03:00):
or questions or just compliments about Phil's
mustache, send an email to jody@park leaders.com j
y park leaders.com this email comes
from Freddy from New York State Parks.
So I, I want to walk you through this email,
Phil, because I just find it. There's a lot going on here, all of it
(03:22):
great. So Freddie starts out saying that he is
unique in his agency. I actually think unique in
parks as a whole because without. He got hired as
a park manager without prior experience
in parks. I want to take a moment to touch on that, Phil. I've
noticed I do not, unfortunately, I would like to change that. I don't know
(03:45):
much about New York state parks yet, but I have seen
in the past that they have promoted maintenance
to park manager positions. And where I was, you just didn't
see that happen. Now here, somebody who has no park
experience promoted to a park manager. I'm going to
walk through the rest of that email, Phil, but I wanted your take on that.
(04:09):
What. And I mean this in a good way, not negative. What
good can come? Tell me the good things you see
in promoting someone without park experience,
someone from the outside that was not a park ranger, to being a
park manager. That's a great question. And we
typically, in my career in South Carolina, we would typically
(04:31):
promote from within. But I had a
couple of experiences in my career where we
hired a park manager. The term we used to use was
off the streets. And it didn't mean like, you know, they were
wandering around looking for something, but they had no park experience
and they came in. So I did that a couple of times,
(04:54):
and both of the times that I did it,
it worked out really good and I was really pleased.
One was at a very large state park that was kind of a resort state
park that we were kind of pressured into
looking at someone from the outside, and I really didn't
want to do it. But we went through the process and we
(05:16):
interviewed and did all that. And this person from the outside
was amazing, did a great job. Ended up being a really good friend of
mine and worked for us for A number of years. And
to get back to your question is, I think some
of the positive things are, is it. They bring a different
perspective and kind of don't bring baggage
(05:38):
and what I call scar tissue from, you know, that's the way we've
always done it, or we can't do that. And so
there's fresh ideas, fresh perspective, and I think. I
think that's a positive thing. And I think it's also an opportunity
for park leaders who bring that new person in
to kind of indoctrinate them into some of our
(06:01):
culture and some of the reasons we do what we do and think
like we do. So the combination of having
someone with a fresh new ideas, fresh new perspective, and looking at,
you know, problems that we've looked at or opportunities that we've
looked at kind of through that same
lens that we've been looking at, of saying, well, we've never done it that, or
(06:23):
we can't do that or this. So you get that fresh perspective in,
and then at the same time, you're able to offer kind of why
our culture does what we do and indoctrinate. And when it works,
it really works really well. And so for
our friend in New York is. I think he'll know if it
works really quick, because you'll know if this is
(06:45):
what you're supposed to do, and if you feel that this is what
you're supposed to do, and if you're able to do it and your
agency is able to do it, I think you'll know pretty quick.
But from his perspective and from the agency's perspective,
if you kind of mesh those two new
things, those dynamics, it's not always there. I think you can get a really
(07:08):
good outcome. I know we did. And now, you know, I've seen
that happen a lot with park directors who
came in and had, you know, no experiences in the
park world and came in and embraced it,
brought new ideas and new perspective, and it worked out really, really
good. I've also saw park directors who come in
(07:30):
who didn't embrace it the right way and didn't kind of do it, and it
says, no, this is not for me. I can't get anything done. And didn't last
long. So I think it's got to work on both ends. I think you've got
to be open to, so what is the culture of this
organization? And why do they do crazy things
or why do they feel this way? And, you know, and in a place
(07:52):
like New York, which is. Has this tremendous, tremendous
legacy in the State park world of, you know, being one
of the first state park systems in the country with, with Niagara
Falls. And so, I mean, it's. You would think if you immerse
yourself and you find out all of a sudden that you're a part of this
legacy that dates back, you know, 100 years,
(08:13):
that's pretty cool right there. And you bring in this new, fresh
perspective and new ideas and looking at opportunities
differently, that could be a really good combination, you know,
And I think from a New York perspective, New York is,
you know, has, has embraced state parks for a long,
long time with, you know, one of arguably the first state
(08:36):
park. So that's, that could be a real, a real winning
combination if, if you embrace it as a long answer.
But I started thinking more about it and it's like, you know, it could be
a really good opportunity. Yeah, it's a good answer. His background
comes from boy Scouts and ymca, so no
direct park experience, but I would say that's still park
(08:58):
experience. That's still the right kind of people experience.
My background, I came from the outside. Now I was not brought in as
a park manager. I was brought in as an entry level ranger. Prior to that,
I had been a financial analyst. I sat at a desk,
I wore a shirt and tie. I measured interest rate risk.
That is not what you expect out of a park ranger. But I will
(09:21):
say it gave me such a different
perspective. Once I was a park ranger, one I
felt so lucky to have the opportunity to
take a big pay cut to become a park ranger. It was like a
boyhood dream. I loved it. When I got into
a couple promotions and more into the management side, it
(09:43):
just gave me a different perspective than other people around me. And I
think that can only benefit parks. To have people
that now park people are great. Parkies are my favorite. It
does benefit though, to have people come in from the outside to bring
different perspective, different viewpoints. We hear a lot about
diversity in parks. What we don't often talk about when we're
(10:06):
talking diversity is diversity of viewpoint, diversity
of experience. And that's only going to help parks to bring people
from the outside into management positions. Yeah, I agree
with you 100% and I think your, your story is a great story because
so like our friend from New York who's
YMCA and Boy Scout, so that tells me just a little bit
(10:28):
that he kind of caught this bug of the out of doors and
recreation in that early in his life with scouting and that kind of stuff.
So he has a little bit of foundation. But if you know, like the bean
counter that you were is like, I don't know if this guy's going to make
it. But, you know, once you start having those. That
dialogue with people and you, you know, that diversity of where you come
(10:50):
from, and it's a whole different perspective that opens up for people that
I think is healthy for the organization and also
healthy for the person who took the job if they do it right. So
I'll tell you a real quick story about diversity in the workplace
that. So while you're traveling all over the world
and going below the equator to go do cool
(11:12):
stuff, I spent a cool trip
to Wyoming. And I went to Wyoming to speak
at Wyoming's State Park Conference. And it was more than the State Park
Conference. It was for their agency and have a very diverse agency. So they
brought everybody at this conference. And I came from a
background of working in a diverse park agency where we had
(11:35):
tourism and marketing and that kind of stuff. The Wyoming system had
a lot of diversity as well. And so they had all these people at
this conference, and they were archivist and
data people and all kinds of different aspects, not
just park folks. And they're kind of working through this thing.
And one of the things that I observed was it was fascinating,
(11:57):
you know, when you took down the guardrails and started
asking people that you normally don't do, they have different
way of looking at things in a different viewpoint. And so while
I was at this conference, I saw them starting coming up with solutions
and ideas that would have never come up if you didn't
have these people that kind of, from a part person's
(12:19):
perspective, you're saying, do they really belong in here? And it's like, yeah,
they do. And now they're bringing this different perspective. So I think that's a lot
of the same thing. So they were one of my funny stories
that I told them. And if they're listening, I hope my new friend
will appreciate this. So we got up for breakfast. And so there's a lot of
the people who worked in archives, and they were archivist and, you
(12:42):
know, like library people. The state library people were there. And so
I'm a part guy, and I'm one of those part guys, is
an extrovert type A personality, talks all the time
and everything. So we're having breakfast, and I'm sitting down with this group,
and I go over to the table and sit down and eat breakfast with them.
And I say, hey, how are y' all doing? I'm Phil from South Carolina. And
(13:04):
then I Go. Just start talking and everything. And I do
that for, like, two mornings in a row, and they're. They're barely talking.
And I'll say, so what do you do and how do you do that? And
they were librarians and archivists. And then, like,
so in the south, we have this saying that I've used before. It's like, bless
your heart. And so bless your heart in the south is not always a
(13:25):
good thing. So after day two, I learned from
people who worked in the library and an archives and was
archivist that finally one of them says, Mr.
Gaines, thank you for eating breakfast with this. But we're
introverts. That's like, what? And they said,
we're introverts. And then after about day three, I learned it. Saying,
(13:46):
we're introverts means, I don't want to talk. Please be quiet.
That's a nice way of saying, I don't want to talk. Please be quiet. But
the fascinating reason I tell that story is after the third
day we're being with those guys, it kind of opened up, and they gave me
a whole new perspective of how important their role and their
function was. So, you know, and how that could improve
(14:09):
what they're trying to do in Wyoming, and had a great trip with great
people, great friends. But to go back to the point about
hiring people that are not internal always
is that I think you got to find ways to get
a different perspective, or you become
stagnant, and you miss some opportunities that
(14:31):
could be out there because you're kind of, you
know, in this mode of looking things through the same lenses that
you did. So there's that balance to where, if you're from the
outside coming in, part of your job is to do your homework
and to find out what kind of legacy you're coming into.
And, you know, if you. In a park system that's been around for
(14:54):
100 years or more, that's a strong legacy that you're now a part
of. And so I think it's important for the person who's
coming in to go in with eyes wide open, learn about the
culture, learn about the legacy component.
And then from the agency standpoint, I think, is for you to go in
with this person can show me things that I don't even know what I'm looking
(15:16):
for, because they see the world a little bit different. And somehow you.
You do that magic where you mesh those two things together and you do
really good stuff. Like in South Carolina, when we were, you
know, our park system is in a marketing Agency with tourism.
And, you know, we certainly look at things through a different
lens when we're with the tourism people. And one of the things that I learned
(15:38):
from being in a tourism agency and in a marketing agency
is there was. When I would go down to the. To the agency director's
office or with the marketing tourism folks, it was like there
was never, no, we can't do that. It was like, how can we do
that? Or, why can't we do that? And sometimes when you're stuck in,
like, regulatory world, it's like, no, we can't do that. And
(16:00):
so if you broaden that out, it's like, I was never told we couldn't
do something. And I think part of that was that. That I lived in a.
In a tourism world where it's like, why can't we do that? Or how can
we do that? Or, let's think about that. So I think it's
a positive thing. And so there's a good balance, because you want
to keep that culture and those traditions, and you want people to stay with you.
(16:22):
And so. But I think. I think it's a good balance.
So I wish I knew more about New York state parks and just what
I've read, but I've not experienced a lot of New York state
parks, except for in online and in articles and
stuff. But I know they have some really amazing state parks, and it's huge
park system. It's kind of like, you know, some big states that are
(16:44):
like, you know, just huge, huge park systems with lots of
issues, lots of opportunities. So that's. That's pretty fascinating
that they're doing that. I do your homework and know what,
you're part of a big legacy, and then the agency hopefully will embrace that
and look for good things coming out of the Empire State.
This is all great, Phil. I. I liked what you said, and it does
(17:07):
help. Having that outside perspective helps.
I showed up at parks not at all
thinking, we can't do that. That's not how we do things around here.
I quite often would say, well, why not just help me
understand why can't we do this? Why does this work this way?
And I think, even though I may have been viewed as a pest
(17:30):
always asking that, I think there's a benefit to having to
explain why we do things, why we've always done it this way,
why things that you're certain are the way they are.
So even having someone from the outside, no matter what level they're at,
helps with that. We actually. My guess is, Jody, you had
Some people that embraced that when you said, why not? And they
(17:52):
would give you details and work through it. And then probably,
reality check here. Probably there are some people who, saying, just
do what I tell you to do. And so you got to work through the
negative parts of it, because there probably will be. I'm sure you face
negative people of, like, when you were coming in there, like, you don't know
anything about what we do. Yeah, that's right. There was some of that. And
(18:15):
I was lucky enough. The manager that took a risk to hire
me was pretty open to. Like, I, for example, I
would say, why do we send this report in? What does it do? And
he. Sometimes he would tell me, but I know this is not very
park, like, maybe not very government. Like, he'd say,
don't send it in. See what happens. Then you'll find out who it's important
(18:38):
to because you'll hear from them. And really doing things
like that really helped because then I said, oh, all right. I don't
send this report in. I get a call from this person, and when I did,
they would explain why it's important to send it in. So even
things like that, just trying things a little different, you'll
find out someone will give you a little tap on the wrist and explain
(19:00):
why if you try something different and it's not going to work that
way. Well, Phil, we've had a great conversation already, and I've. I've
only made it, like one. One little part into the email, so
I'm going to bounce off a couple other parts. I want to make sure that
I. I highlight that Freddie said he found the Park
Leader show after his interview, and it's been one of the
(19:22):
greatest resources for him, helped him transition into the new
position. Because you know this too, Phil. There's. He says there's
not many resources out there, so I'm fortunate to have come across the Park
Leader Show. It helped me hit the ground running. Every
show I've listened to has given me great insight into what my job entails and
has helped to mold my vision for what I want to see in the park.
(19:44):
I lead. I love to hear that, Phil, because I think that means we're
doing something right with the Park Leader show, that we can take an
outsider that's new to parks, have him listen to the park show
and him say, okay, now I get it. I get all the.
These are my words, not his. I get the hype. I get the purpose. I
have a better understanding of why we do what we do. Yeah, you
(20:07):
know, you got to stay relevant in every job you do. And so one of
the ways you stay relevant is you read, you listen to podcasts, and you make
these connections. And, you know, and I'm sure every state
has places where you can connect through your agency,
through your state recreation and park association,
and then through the Park Leaders show, and we hope, drop some
(20:29):
tidbits and ideas of where to get information
and. And hopefully we'll. We'll continue to do some of
those tidbits out there. All right, Phil. It goes on to say,
you and Phil, you being me, Jody and Phil, have helped
cement my passion for parks. Truly humbled to be able to be a
steward for my park. And I'm most excited to build a positive culture
(20:52):
where we never forget our mission to provide an essential service
to the community. I will tell you, Phil, that gives me hope
for Freddie's future as a park manager. That. That's what he
shows up as with his attitude towards his park and his new role.
Yeah. And, you know, going back to what we talked about earlier, it's. It's. That
sounds like he's done his part. You learn about that culture and
(21:14):
that legacy, and it's like you become a difference maker.
So I'll throw out one of my philosophies of,
when you thinking about this stuff, one of the things, no matter how high you
go up, I always used to say, stay close to your point of service.
And if you stay close to your point of service, then that. That always keeps
you inspired. Why am I here? What is your purpose? What is your North Star?
(21:36):
And if you stay close to your point of service, you never forget
that. You know, it's not about all this stuff you're doing in the office
and all that other kind of stuff. It's about is that stuff that happens out
at the park, on the trails, in the campground, in the swimming areas,
and the programs on Saturday nights and clean
bathrooms. So piece of advice to everybody as you
(21:57):
going through this, always, always stay close to your point of service,
and you'll know you'll never forget why you're doing this. Yeah, that
is great advice, Phil. And it's funny that you gave us a
philosophy right there, because one of the next things
he said is he talks about taking notes during the show and then said,
Phil especially always has great lines. So there you go.
(22:21):
One more piece to cover on this, Phil. He said some of the best advice
you gave was to not start and enact major changes
immediately, but rather to make changes over time. I would
Say, as an outsider, that is more important
than if you were park ranger who got promoted to like,
it would not go well if you were a park ranger that became park
(22:43):
manager and then tried to implement changes. But being
from the outside, at least spend 30 days
just watching, listening, answering questions, sitting
where park visitors sit, walking the trails. That should be
the first 30 days as an outsider. And just take notes. Just
recently, I was with Lee Cockrell, the
(23:05):
retired executive vice president of Walt Disney World. He was telling someone,
when you're first on the job, be quiet,
walk around and take notes. Because when you are fresh on
a job, you will see things in a way you will never
see them again, because you get a first impression, a
first reaction, and that's what you should be writing down and noticing
(23:28):
because you'll never view it the same way again. Yeah,
that's. That's great advice. And then after you reach that first
impression thing, throughout your career, it's always important
to walk, drive, to see your park through the eyes of a
visitor. And you know, again, that's that going back to that philosophy
of stay close to your point of service. Don't ever get so far away
(23:50):
from it that you forget where, where the action is, where the, you
know, where the soft spot is. Whereas, you know, it's why we do what we
do is when you. You got to hear kids
laughing and screaming and smell the campfires and all
that kind of good stuff and. But, yeah, I always used to say that,
you know, your first year is you really just
(24:12):
learning and observing the whole year. I mean, you don't stand
complacent. You do some stuff, but you're absorbing,
you're taking a lot of notes. And so your first year is this
real learning experience. And then the second year, you're a little
bit better and you're able to start doing stuff because you know what's coming,
because you've experienced in the first year, and you know that
(24:34):
4th of July starts here and these kind of things. Whereas
if this is your first Fourth of July coming up, you have no idea what
to expect next year, you'll know a little bit better and you'll be a little
bit prepared. So first year, you're observing, you're taking
notes, you're gaining credibility, you're. You're building
relationships. Second year, you know what's coming, so you're getting to be
(24:56):
a little bit more strategic. And then, you know, by the end of your
second year, when you get ready for your third year, that's when you start
making you know, real things happen. And you're
strategic in doing it and not just doing it because I'm here and I'm supposed
to do stuff. Now you kind of know what to expect and, and you've
built relationships and, and you're, you're really thinking
(25:18):
strategically, which is really hard to do in the summer season
because what you're really trying to do in really busy parks is
to make it through the day. And as much as you plan tomorrow,
it's not going to go as planned. So take notes,
like what you're saying, what Lee says. Take notes and observe because
this first year is really critical. Well, this episode
(25:40):
turned out to be great. We had a great email, we had a
philosophy, we had some great advice from Phil
himself. So I'm gonna sum it up here with one
question to Phil. You can make it yes or no if
you want. Phil, do you need park experience to manage a park?
No. No. There you have it, Phil, that could have been a one
(26:03):
minute episode just with that one question and answer. All
right, Phil, it was great to have you back on the show. I, I know
we, I stepped away and did some other interviews and some fun stuff
without you, but it's always a treat to have you back. Always good to be
back, Jody. All right, thanks, Phil. And thank you for listening to the park
Leader show.
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