June 17, 2025 • 47 mins
"When you truly love a place, you do whatever it takes to protect it, even if it takes a decade."
Notable Moments
00:01:04 Meeting Rodrigo and Jose
00:02:03 Rodrigo shares how a simple question sparked conservation
00:07:15 Jose explains fighting the first hydroelectric project
00:20:54 What happens after the land is protected
00:32:04 The significance of the ancient Alerce tree
Jody Maberry recounts his unforgettable trip to Chile’s Cochamó Valley, especially meeting Rodrigo Condeza and Jose Claro. Together, they have spent over a decade fighting to stop hydroelectric dams and irresponsible development in Pucheguin. Their efforts highlight the power of dedication and community-led conservation. Listen to hear about their battles, the unique Alerce trees, historic trails, and the vision for balancing wilderness protection with community livelihood and responsible tourism.
Read the blog for more from this episode.
Episode Resources
Puelo Patagonia: puelopatagonia.cl
Conserva Pucheguin Project: conservapucheguin.org
Connect with Jody
https://parkleaders.com/about/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/theparkleaders/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Park Leader show, where we are changing the landscape of
leadership in parks and conservation. I'm your host,
Jody Mayberry. And this episode is really
special to me for two reasons. One,
I'm going to introduce you to some new friends of mine who you are
going to love. And two, it is our first
(00:23):
episode with people from Chile, and
usually our episodes are focused on the United States,
but I recently took a trip to Chile. That's where I got to meet
who you're about to meet. And their story is fantastic. So
first, I'm going to introduce you to Rodrigo Condeza.
Rodrigo, first. Did I get your last name right? I practiced a few
(00:45):
times. Yes, you did. All right. Thank you
for the invitation, Yuri. Yes. It's great to have you here.
And our second guest is Jose. Claro.
Jose. It's so good to have you here. Thank you, Jody. My
pleasure to be here with you and all the people that are listening.
Well, you have to hear before we talk to them, how I
(01:08):
met them. I was lucky enough to get invited on an
expedition to Chile with the Nature Conservancy
and a couple of other private groups. It was me and Dejuan
Rivers and one Nature Conservancy and a couple family
foundations went down there to look at. The story will
unfold. But as 325,000 acres of
(01:30):
beautiful wilderness that a nonprofit group called
Pueo Patagonia, who the representatives are here
with us. They are purchasing this property. And you have
got to hear the story that starts with Rodrigo.
So, Rodrigo, how this just amazes
me how you buying a piece of property and getting
(01:52):
curious about something started this big steamroll.
So take us back to that. What was
the question that you started asking that led to all of this?
Okay, got it. Thank you for the question. Because it's
always bring me to, you know, that moment when I was
traveling in the Cochino Valley with poor rain
(02:15):
and suddenly, you know, like blue
sky over the granite and a little bit of light, you
know, in the forest. And that was enough for me to get in
love with the place, come back and also
buy a piece of land. And the question was, if I help this
piece of land, I will ask for the water rights. What happens if, you
(02:37):
know, I own my own, my own water rights. And
I did and realized that 70 hydroelectric companies
wanted to build seven different
projects and just destroyed the valley. And
that was something that moves me in the
point that I start with more neighbors,
(03:00):
this movement in order to protect the place. And we
are passing from being, you know, like,
reaction of Threats. And now
with this opportunity, we are acting to
conserve it forever. So solve the problem forever. Not only the
hydroelectric, but also roads and
(03:22):
also subdivision of land and
a massive tourism that can also be a big threat
for this kind of really endangered
environments. I'm very delicate. So that's why
after all these 20 years, we're in this opportunity and
now I'm blessed. I'm really. I feel blessed, you know, like, to
(03:45):
be part of this and being all this
time with the same objective without changing.
Rodrigo, I think so many people in a situation like
that would just accept it or say, oh, that's how things are.
Is it your personality or is it just a trade of people
in Chile that you just wouldn't leave it alone? And you kept chasing it down
(04:08):
until we got to the point where we are now. Well, I think it's the
place, man. In the end it's the place because the place is so
beautiful that it's like falling in love with someone and
that person is in problems, you know, like health problems. And
you do everything you can to help the person.
So in the end, it's not me, it's not the group or it's not the,
(04:31):
you know, like the people that is involved here, I think is the place
that deserve to be protected. And we understand
that and we took action. That's the only difference. Well,
the other half of that is Jose. So, Jose, how did you
end up involved in this? So I am from
Santiago, the capital of Chile, that is in the
(04:54):
central part of the country. And on
2007 I came as you
on a trip to find a place
away from people, away from big cities and
in the middle of nature, wild nature. So
I end arriving to the Puelo river
(05:16):
that is in the same county called
Cochamo. And with
some friends we bought this piece of land. And I start
coming since 2007 until
2012 that I moved from Santiago
to Puerto Varas, that is the major town
(05:39):
close to this place for work.
I found a real
estate company and we need a office here in
the south of Chile. And I it was my
biggest way to be close to
this part. So it was kind of like,
(06:01):
excuse so I can be closer to this
area. On 2013,
more or less, I met Rodrigo in
a ferry in the middle of the county.
There is a ferry that moves from one place to another
in a dirt road that gets to
(06:24):
the interim part of Cochamo, where I bought this piece
of land very away from the Cochamo Valley, very away
from where Rodrigo start protecting
this area. So I met him.
We have heard about each other, but we haven't
met before. And we start talking. And he
(06:46):
invited me on 2014, 2015,
when I joined Pueblo Patagonia to be part of Puerto Patagonia.
They found puerto Patagonia on
2013, and I joined them on
2015, when
another big hydroelectric project
(07:08):
was going to be built in
another valley. Different ballet than Kohamu Valley.
Imagine that Kohamu county are too many
valleys everywhere, too many rivers, very steep
valleys that you can build a lot of dam projects.
So the Kohamu county was seen as a
(07:30):
battery. So they can connect 27
hydroelectric power stations, but they need
to build the first one. So that's why I
joined Rodrigo and the other members of Colopatagonia
on that time to fight to this first project,
because if they connect the first one, they can connect the other
(07:53):
26. So that's why I
joined this conservation effort in that
time was an activist work.
When I was first told about Cochima Valley and Pucha
Guin, someone said, it's like Yosemite National Park.
And I said, oh, Yosemite is beautiful. And they said, yeah, but
(08:16):
it's not what you think. It's like Yosemite in 1830.
And I thought that was a clever comment until I went there and I
was like, oh, my goodness, this is pristine. What it's
almost like if you have a place like Yosemite and you get
to start over from scratch like nothing has ever happened,
and you get to step in and do it the right way. And I
(08:38):
know there are situations. You two have both got to visit national
parks in the United States, and it's something we're very good at
is parks. We've gone through stages, though, where
we've done things in parks that we wouldn't do now. And you see it
in Yellowstone and you see it in Yosemite, but you have a chance
to save a place that has nothing that is started.
(09:01):
It's just pure wilderness now. And it's so exciting.
And. And also you. You've heard us reference that we met in
Chile. I got to go on that expedition. We went by horseback up
the Cochimal Valley, stayed a few nights up there, did a lot of
hiking, flew over the whole area by helicopter. It was
just an incredible. And Rodrigo, when we were flying
(09:23):
over the lake, we saw a ferry, and Jose said,
that's where I met Rodrigo on that ferry. I thought that was neat that that
came up again. Yeah, right there. Yeah.
I will have to say, you know, Like Jose says, okay, I'm joined, but I
go all in. Otherwise I don't join. And we say, okay,
here we are working, you know, like after, wow, 11
(09:46):
years. No. Yeah, 10 years. Yeah. So
a decade of working towards something and it's finally
gonna happen. Where did you always know, Rodrigo?
Did you always think this would happen? Or are you
surprised that it's finally going to be protected
after a decade of fighting? Yeah, well, you know,
(10:07):
you take one fight at a time, and we were fighting,
fighting. But in the end you say, why don't
we stop fighting, you know, like against all these threats.
And in the back of my head, but also the back of
everybody, was what we are doing now,
conserving this place forever. And we couldn't do it before
(10:29):
because the owner didn't have the titles right.
And in the moment he had the titles right, he put it
right away for sale. And we right away,
in six months, seven months, we give him the
first offer. So it was part of the vision from the
beginning. We were dreaming about this, and we didn't
(10:51):
know how to do it. We didn't know who were going to be our
partners. We knew that we have to do
it. And this property is a big chance of doing this
conservation corridor, and it will help local
communities to develop and we will, doing
our dream, protect as much as possible this
(11:13):
county. And this is a great step, without a
doubt. And we saw the opportunity.
We went directly take it and
be brave. Here we are working, you know,
where we can see the finish line in front of us
after two years of work. There is another
(11:35):
person in this story that at times, it
depends on how you look at it, they either have tremendously
helped this project or I guess on how
you're telling the story, they could have been the bad guy in the story, but
without the person that. There's one person that,
if you can correct my details, if I'm right or wrong,
(11:57):
ended up consolidating 200 individual
parcels into 325,000 acres being
under one title, one ownership. And without that,
this wouldn't have played out the way it did. Is that right?
Yes, it is. This guy that is the
owner of this 325,000 acres
(12:18):
property is the same that we were
fighting for six, seven years against
this hydroelectric project. So we
were adversaries for 10 years. We
stopped his project. We make him
lose a lot of money to him and his partners.
(12:42):
So we weren't friends at all
at the end, like you are saying, Jody, he
did, I don't know, crucial Work
for this opportunity that he, it was consolidating
the titles in one title that he
could sell for the highest bidder that
(13:06):
at the end we realized why we
are not that bitter. So
we, like Rodrigo was saying, we saw the
opportunity, we take action. And
not in my best dreams.
I see this coming with these
(13:29):
great partners that are working with us, with
all the local community being
part of this project and
also building the necessary
trust with the owner that at the end
we have this deal that is not yet
(13:52):
end, but we are close to
conservate this place forever. But
there is still work to do. So at the end
he did his job, a very important one.
But if you see in another
way, if we didn't fight
(14:14):
him before, he also
couldn't sell the property now.
And at the end it's a win win for everybody. And I think he also
have this dream that at the end the property have
a conservation or protected,
I don't know, gold for the place. Yeah, he did a big
(14:37):
discount also and that's very good
for conservation efforts because you know, money is
always an issue for buying this kind of land. It's such
a fascinating story that somebody that you fought
and you were not friends, I would imagine
he didn't like you. You had to have been a thorn in his side for
(14:59):
a decade and then in the end you were such
disruptors and then he still works with you to not only
sell it to you, but at a discount. And it just makes
me think that the way you two went about being disruptive,
you still somehow had to have made a good impression on him. And
you must have done it in a way that he respected
(15:22):
what you did enough that he would work with you and that he would give
a discount. When you look back on that, what was it
that you did where you could be disruptive to
him and be so fierce in protecting this place,
but in a way that was so respectful that he was willing to,
to work with you after a decade. Yeah, well, you
(15:45):
know, like, because this was a really big project that
from our point of view it was going to
do a big impact. And especially because what
Jose was saying, this was the first hydroelectric power
plant. And then you know, they have the, the lines
there, the transmissions line, so it's easy to keep
(16:07):
adding more electric power plants. So I think
we really, that was the big win more than,
you know, like only the electric power plant that we fought.
But in the end what we did, it was a technical job in,
you know, like technical and legal job that we
finished in Supreme Court after five years and we won.
(16:30):
It was of course like anything you're doing in life
is work, professionalism and lucky also.
So we had a little bit of everything and
we were in the right time. And also we keep fighting until the end.
And I think that in any situation it will, you
know, like in. If you are in a battle with someone, you will respect
(16:53):
your the one you have in front. Because he. They were
fighting until the end and we were fighting until the end. We were
lucky enough that we won, but we both
fight, you know, like we were playing the game. Both
wanted to win and one had to win only. And that was
us at this time. But I think nothing is
(17:16):
just the technical and legal work that we did. But also
we didn't take it to a personal
side of this legal fight. I think
that was one thing important and the other one that
I We think that he realized this was
David versus Goliath. We were David, we were small,
(17:39):
no resources, no big friends, just
will to stop this. Because we knew
that this was not the way that
Kochamon needs to develop the place.
At the end, with just few resources,
but a lot of will and
(18:01):
commitment, we won. And I think that
in any way, when you see when there's someone that is
weak and it wins over
a strong one, you respect the weak
one and you change your mindset about them. So
I think he realized that even we were small,
(18:24):
without resources and he was big with power,
with resources, with the best attorneys, everything.
He realized that we were fearless
opponent, but also wants to have respect
on us. And at the end also because
we get close to him through a
(18:48):
common friend and we did an anonymous first
offer, of course very low. And at
the end he said no. But then when
we met for the first time, he started
realizing that even that we were
adversaries for so long. We were at the
(19:10):
same time his way out his exit because
he realized that if we have
big friends now with resources, we
could be more fearless than
before. At the end he realized
that there was a way to build the
(19:32):
necessary trust, like I said before,
to build this opportunity for both
of us. Him a way of exit a good deal
for him, but also a good deal for
conservation for the territory. So
I think there is a mutual respect now on
(19:55):
both sides. But also he realized that
he don't want to be this bad guy and he
want to leave Kochmo as someone that
add some value to the conservation effort as well.
So the beginning of the story took 10 years or more
(20:15):
to get to where you Are now there's a deal in place,
you're still raising money. I don't want to discount
that part, the fundraising part. I know how hard it is. I
know it's nonstop on you guys that you always presenting,
always meeting new people, always pitching. That is really
hard work. I don't want to discount that. It does look
(20:37):
inevitable that the funds will get raised
and Poocha Kin will forever be protected.
I want to for a moment anyway skip over the middle part
of the story, which is the fundraising and get to the
forever part of the story. Once the purchase is complete
and it's protected, then what happens? What's the plan
(20:59):
after that? Well, it's a long plan.
Yeah, that's the first part. Well, first of all,
once we purchase the land, we have at least two years
of planification and making the conservation
plan. So we have to present this to
(21:21):
the government in order to have a legal layer of
protection. Right. So then we are aiming
to have at least 80% of the land in a street
conservation category as park or even
higher and 20% where the all the
infrastructure will be where the local community
(21:42):
use this land. The actual uses of the land we can
guarantee with this multi layer of protection. That is the other
20%. We have to find out the exact category,
but it's a flexible one where you have conservation, but
also you can have tourism or
agriculture or anything that it will not impact that much.
(22:04):
But that is useful for the local community. That for us is
really, really important. And tourism is a big part of
this project because what we have been
seeing in their territory is that tourism has the
capacity of the giving great experience as you did, you know, like,
but also have the ability to protect the land as
(22:27):
you are seeing that it is happening. But most of
it, it has the ability of giving job to the local
community. And I think responsible
tourism is a really great and
powerful tool where conservation and
tourism can join together. So I think it will be
(22:48):
two years of applying, maybe less and
start building the infrastructure necessary to have
visitors and to take care of the place and then
run the place for a long time and
give it as I said before, or give it to the government with
a strong layer of protection and the rest for tourism and
(23:11):
develop. So imagine a very
isolated place where people live
and the closest town is
6, 7, 10 hours by horse.
So that's kind of the context where
we are trying to build this conservation effort.
(23:34):
Where we also want to highlight this way of
life and respect that
those historic uses of the land, those
trails that we Walk with you, Jody. It's
a trail of 120 years old
where people move cattle from the mountains to the
(23:56):
sea. Even where Butch Cassidy and Sundance
Kid move stolen cattle from the
Argentina to Chile. So what we want to
do in a conservation way
is to join two uses. One
is conservation, but the other one is a way of life that
(24:19):
it's kind of a owner who has
lived there for these 100 years in the
territory. So at the end the tourists
in is the kind of vehicle
to achieve a kind of develop for
those people. But at the same time we are trying
(24:41):
to have these multi layers of
protection in the land. But at the same time we
want to have this fertile land that
some others can come and
also develop other parts that we are not going to be
able to do. One example, for example, health
(25:03):
services or educational services improve
those that we don't have or we have
a little. So this is a hundred years project. That
is a statement. So we will start
this project. Probably we will not see the end because
it's. I don't know, it's like you were saying, It's
(25:26):
Yosemite of 1830. So what we want to
do is to put the
land in favor that others can come
and develop the needs that the people and the nature
have in this place. So at the end is a long
conservation effort, but it's also a long community
(25:49):
development effort. Is this is a project for
people with people. It's such a
unique and well, it. The approach that you're doing
with it to include people that are already there
because there are small pockets in
Puchaguin that's going to be protected where people have been there
(26:11):
about a hundred years. Right. People have been there a long time and now
the area is going to end up protected. And this is
not one of those situations where they will say, okay,
you now are we're turning this into a national park. You're out of here.
Or at minimum to say, this is how you have to
live now that it's a park. This is really being done with
(26:35):
not only them in mind, but consulting them and finding out how
they use the land, why they use the land. And I think that's just
a really nice approach that
maybe wouldn't. When you fight for protection of a place to include
the people that are already there. I just think the way you're going
about this is really unique and it's good to see. So this
(26:58):
is the park ranger podcast
or the park leader rangers. And all these local
communities are the real park rangers in this area.
So this is, I don't know, a monument for
them. Honor them. Yeah. Very cool. Well,
Jose mentioned the trail, and I'm glad you brought up
(27:20):
that trail because it was how we got through the
Cochima Valley on horseback. And you two learned right away
I'm very green on riding a horse. I had no
idea what I was doing. I'm sure you figured that out pretty quickly.
But what an amazing experience. Not only to ride
through the forest like that, to spend all day on a horse, just
(27:43):
incredible. But as we went along, the story
for me unfolded about the trail, about how historic
it is and what it was used for. And you. You can really see,
you go through places where 120 years of
hooves have carved down, and you'll have
walls barely wider than my shoulders that are taller than me
(28:05):
at some points. And it is just a really cool piece
of history. I did not know while we were there that Butch
Cassidy and the Sundance Kid had ridden that trail with
some cattle. That would have fascinated me even more while we were there. I learned
that after I got home, so I'm glad you mentioned that. And with
this group that we were with, Jose and Rodrigo, they
(28:28):
knew all right, we've got to keep an eye on these Americans.
So Rodrigo usually was at the front of the group. Jose was
usually at the back of the group. And if I am not in the very
front, I like to be in the very back. And I
take my time. I look at everything. And Jose,
because he was at the back of the group most of the time, he had
(28:50):
to put up with that with me, that I had stopped constantly.
I had questions about nearly everything we saw. So, Jose, I don't know if
I told you while we were there, I appreciate you being so
patient and hiking slow with me so I could look at things
and answering my 10 questions every
100ft. Now, we had a.
(29:11):
A great moment, Jody, with you and everybody and.
And I really enjoy. I'm like you when I'm in. In
the. At first I go fast, but
it's good to have Rodrigo in front because
he maintain normal
walk and going at the end.
(29:33):
Enjoying with you in this time, but with others
in other trips, it's been kind of for me
because I am always in a hurry, like
anxious. Someone is chasing me always. So
it's good to take the time, go slower,
talk when you have all these questions. And I really enjoyed that you
(29:56):
were so interest on knowing more about the
wildlife, nature, but also the history that
was behind from this territory. So it
was a Pleasure for me as well, Jody. Oh, well, thank you. I had
a fantastic time and I am absolutely in love
with the Alersa tree now. What an amazing
(30:19):
tree. I started hearing about that tree. So the
day I arrived in Puerto Viares, Rodrigo was nice
enough to invite Dewan Rivers and I to go whitewater
rafting. And the other person with us that day, Brady,
he started talking about the Alersa tree. And then when I
met Jose, he started talking about the Alersa tree. And I kept
(30:42):
thinking, this must be some tree if I heard
about it two days before I've even got to see one of these trees. And
then we make it up deeper into the valley, up into the mountains, and I
got to see an alert for the first time. And they are fascinating.
What a beautiful tree. It is. Yeah, it's,
you know, it's. It's been in the present of a
(31:04):
living organism that can live
5,000 years old, you know, like. So the ones we
saw maybe 3220, 500. But
you know, they have the capacity of maybe being the
oldest tree in the world. There is one in
Grana, it's called one tree that one of the
(31:27):
universities in Chile studied and they think they it
is 5,470 years. That's a lot.
That's a lot. And it's a really special because also, you know,
like, it's look for you maybe is familiar because it's a
iconifer, right. And it's taller than the
(31:47):
sequoia, but older than the redwood. So
it's a very unique. Yeah, it is. So
they are so special. You are totally right. It's a great tree.
And we are protecting 11% of that tree in the world. So
it's a big deal for us. And before the Alercy
was so exploded that almost
(32:10):
disappear. So in the early 70s, I think
the Chilean government protected by law the
tree and it became a national
monument. So there are some places that are very
far away in the mountains like this that you can still see
these Alerce forest that are very special,
(32:32):
very big, very old. They have been there for a
long time and see the change. And they
are. Well, nowadays they are witness of
climate change as well. So you can study climate
through them. So I think Alerce
is one special natural monument
(32:55):
that we have in Kuchamu. But also we have the
Wamul deer. I know that you in America have
too much deers. Super deers. Super deers.
But for us, this is the
southernmost deer in the world and there
are only 2,000 left in
(33:17):
wildness. So that's also
part of the wilderness that we have here
in Koachamu. Yeah. There, from what I saw and
heard, there's not a lot of wildlife in
Cochimal. But what you have is unique. The deer
Jose mentioned, the world's smallest deer is there. One of the most
(33:39):
unique frogs is there. I think the smallest
wild cat in the world is there. Right. So pretty
unique stuff. I didn't. I did not see that
much wildlife. I saw a Chilean red bat. I think you were with me when
we saw that, Rodrigo. I was excited about that. And
a bird chow. Is that right, Jose?
(34:03):
Yeah. Okay. And you miss. And you missed
the condor. You were seeing the Al&T
flew over us, but goes into the mountains.
I know I was too wrapped up in an alersa tree and I missed the
condor. Okay. We've talked all this time
about Co Valley, but Jose and Rodrigo
(34:26):
just took a trip to the States. There was an event in Jackson,
Wyoming, to raise awareness for this project. And
I know you've both been to the United States before. How was this trip?
Did you get to visit any parks while you were here? Yes,
well, it was a very fast
trip. We arrived on a Sunday, and I
(34:48):
live on a Friday morning. But we had the chance to
go to Grand Titus, and it was amazing. We had
a wonderful weather. We were
guided by a TNC
member, a staff member. So he took us to a
very special place. It was a lake. I
(35:10):
don't remember right now the name, but it was very beautiful.
Phelps Lake. It was very beautiful. We saw
deers, and also we saw a moose. And
it's fantastic to see, for example, the visitor
center. So we were, like, studying how
we can do things here as well, because you
(35:33):
have, I don't know, very good things that we can
copy that could improve
the experience in the wilderness here.
But it was fantastic. We have difference in
how we can approach the mountains. You
have different and I think,
(35:55):
easy to get mountains. We have,
I don't know, different ways to arrive to the
mountains. More difficult to us in that way. But
I loved Grand Titus. I want to go and come back with
family, make a road trip. You have fantastic things to
do. And I really enjoy to visit Wyoming.
(36:19):
Yeah. Rodrigo, did you. You go to the Tetons? Did you go into Yellow?
You. So you were asking me about, should I go to Yellowstone, should I go
to Glacier? What did you end up doing? Yeah, well, yeah, I
had like one more week than
Jose, so then I went to Yellowstone. Yeah, I
wanted to see the fauna. I went to see Animals. And it
(36:41):
was walking 50km that. I don't
know how many miles is that, But I was walking in the
back country with my tent, my sleeping bag, my. So it
was a whole experience for me because, you know, like, first thing that I
realized that I had to buy a filter to filter the water in order
to drink. We here in Chile, we just drink the water. So that was the
(37:03):
first thing. Second thing, my weapon that it was like the
bear spray that they didn't. You know, it was
my first time sleeping in the. In the outdoors, in the
wilderness, in the back country. I was afraid because this first time
that I was sleeping by myself in a place with nobody
else around with birds.
(37:25):
Birds, you know, like for us, danger animals. So it
was anyways, you know, like those 50km walk
was fantastic. You can see that it's the oldest park in the
world. The animals. I saw so many. I saw
much animals than people in the backcountry. And
every encounter for me, that it was magical. So I had
(37:48):
a really great time. And the other side, you know,
having the chance of. I was walking in the geysers.
They are everywhere. So it's like sitting. I mean,
walking in a bomb, you know, in a. It was,
wow, this is something else, something really unique. And
I was so glad to get to know this place because of the
(38:11):
fauna, but because it's the first park in the world. So
it's a very good way of getting inspiration for
what we are doing right now. Oh, that's so good to hear. And
Rodrigo had asked me when we were together, should I go to
Yellowstone or should I go to Glacier? And I said,
that is one of the best questions anyone can ask, but it depends on
(38:33):
what do you want to see. And Rodrigo said,
wildlife. And I said, hands down, it's got to be Yellowstone.
Glacier is perhaps my favorite place on earth. But if
you're going for wildlife, it's got to be Yellowstone because it
is the highest concentration of wildlife in North America. And
you'll never be disappointed there. Yeah. And it sounds like you
(38:55):
were not. It sounds like you saw everything you hoped you would. Yeah, you
were totally right. So I just follow your advice and. And next
time will be Glacier. All right, well, when
you go to Glacier, I'll be there with you. I'll show you all the good
spots. Okay, so you two have a David and
Goliath underdog conservation story. In
(39:18):
my mind, you. You are just champions of conservation,
your conservation leaders. So I'm going to start with
you, Jose. What advice do you have for an up and
coming conservation leader who wants to have an impact, just do
it. Don't hesitate on your, on your
principles, on your gut. I think
(39:40):
we move by and from
love and I think this case was that
we really love the plagues, we really love the way
of life, we really love the people there. But also
now we love each other with all these
wonderful alliance that we build
(40:03):
this year. So I think there
are people out there that want to
help but sometimes they don't know
how. I think you just need to
say, hide your voice like make
loud, like talk loud. Like go and say hey,
(40:27):
I want to help how I can help. This is not
just about us. There are too many
people around this project. There are too many
histories behind us. And we
were just there in the right moment and we
took the opportunity. Opportunities come
(40:49):
every day and you can take it or leave it and
we take it. And at the end, for these
10 years, a decade, we didn't
think about this end for this.
Like we were not working for personal
interest. We were truly working
(41:13):
for the place and the people. And I think that
when you do things 100%,
the outcomes will be the same
as the effort that you put on. So I think just do
it. Don't hesitate and be brave. And
there are a lot of loses and
(41:36):
a lot of cries in between, but
you will have those
wins in the middle and you have to enjoy
as well those moments. Because I think life is
about good moments but also bad moments. And
that will make you get through
(41:58):
your, how to say it, what you really want to
achieve at the end. It's not easy, it's not
short, and sometimes you will have pain.
But at the end, if you did it in 100%,
you will have joy. That is great advice
and I also want to make sure that I mentioned that with
(42:21):
Jose's guidance, the last day in Puerto
Varas, I ordered dinner in Spanish. That could have
been my big moment while in Chile. Pizza.
Yes. Oh, pizza. That's right. Yes. All I ordered was a
three cheese pizza, but it was, it was still a stretch for me to order
that in Spanish, but I did it. Okay,
(42:42):
Rodrigo, you started this whole
thing and that's why I want to finish with you. Because
you were bold enough to speak up and do
things that most people wouldn't be willing to do. What advice do
you have for an up and coming conservation leader who wants to have an
impact? You know, when you see this effort up to
(43:05):
the days that we are working right now, it's a
effort of many People like, it's amazing how
people get to know the place, feel the energy,
right. And then start working through food for conservation.
And I think having an ordinary star
that is the care taking care of the place and
(43:28):
conservate forever like one northern star that
moves everyone to the same direction, I think it is
really a big part of it. And the second is
egos. Is the ego in any
group, you know, like can be a problem and, and leave
those egos behind also helps a lot in order
(43:50):
to look and watch and follow this
northern start. So I think those are very important things.
And the last thing that I want to make a quick
reflection is that there is not many wild places in our
earth, you know, because conservation is a long term vision.
I think the places that are left are surrounded by
(44:12):
people because we have more people than 150
years ago when Yellowstone national park was
the first park. Right. So now it's impossible to do
conservation without the people. I think it's something that
we are doing it but for us it's natural because we see that
it's the only way to do it. Well, this has been
(44:35):
wonderful seeing you two again, hearing the story again and
just talking about the great work that you've done. It is. I told
Jose and Rodrigo before that Americans love
a underdog story and you two are an underdog
story. And I did learn my time in Chile that when you're in South
America, do not refer to our country as America,
(44:58):
call it the United States. I learned that, but my audience
is mostly in the United States. So I feel comfortable at the moment
saying Americans. But while I'm in Chile, it is the United
States. So that's. I know I was wrapping up, but if
it's best to call the United States of America the United
States, what do you call people from the United States? Are we
(45:20):
Americans or what do you call us? Americans.
Americans. All right.
Well, you two are doing great work. If anyone wants to
find out about the work you're doing and
oh, I messed it up. I was trying to say it fast like you guys
do and I messed it up. But if we want to find out the work
(45:42):
you're doing and keep up and celebrate with you as this whole project
gets finished, where can we do that and where can we find out more?
So you can find us on
puelopatagonia.com
that's our in the call, the name of our NGO
and about the this specific project
(46:05):
is conserva puchein.com as
well. It's a tricky name. It's not
easy for English speakers, but maybe
Jody can post it on the same tag of the
podcast. Yeah, that's right. We'll put it in the show notes and
you've you've just heard how much cooler Jose
(46:27):
and Rodrigo sound when they say these names versus when I try
to stumble my way through them. That's why I just conceded and let them say
it. Nobody don't feel bad because when you speak English is the same for us.
You sound much cooler than us
talking in English. We speak a jungle English. We say,
well, it was so wonderful of you two to come and be
(46:49):
on the show. I had such a great time in Chile. The people
are wonderful. You are very generous and gracious and wonderful
hosts. I throw thoroughly enjoyed my time. I hope I will be back.
This was just one of many times we'll get to spend time together down
there. Raymond all up there or up there?
Yes. You have an open invitation for I'll meet you at
(47:12):
Glacier National Park. I live right by Olympic national park. So
let's go for a hike. It was great to see you again. Thank you so
much and thank you for listening to the Park Leader Show
Sa.
Welcome to the Park Leader show, where we are changing the landscape of
leadership in parks and conservation. I'm your host,
Jody Mayberry. And this episode is really
special to me for two reasons. One,
I'm going to introduce you to some new friends of mine who you are
going to love. And two, it is our first
(00:23):
episode with people from Chile, and
usually our episodes are focused on the United States,
but I recently took a trip to Chile. That's where I got to meet
who you're about to meet. And their story is fantastic. So
first, I'm going to introduce you to Rodrigo Condeza.
Rodrigo, first. Did I get your last name right? I practiced a few
(00:45):
times. Yes, you did. All right. Thank you
for the invitation, Yuri. Yes. It's great to have you here.
And our second guest is Jose. Claro.
Jose. It's so good to have you here. Thank you, Jody. My
pleasure to be here with you and all the people that are listening.
Well, you have to hear before we talk to them, how I
(01:08):
met them. I was lucky enough to get invited on an
expedition to Chile with the Nature Conservancy
and a couple of other private groups. It was me and Dejuan
Rivers and one Nature Conservancy and a couple family
foundations went down there to look at. The story will
unfold. But as 325,000 acres of
(01:30):
beautiful wilderness that a nonprofit group called
Pueo Patagonia, who the representatives are here
with us. They are purchasing this property. And you have
got to hear the story that starts with Rodrigo.
So, Rodrigo, how this just amazes
me how you buying a piece of property and getting
(01:52):
curious about something started this big steamroll.
So take us back to that. What was
the question that you started asking that led to all of this?
Okay, got it. Thank you for the question. Because it's
always bring me to, you know, that moment when I was
traveling in the Cochino Valley with poor rain
(02:15):
and suddenly, you know, like blue
sky over the granite and a little bit of light, you
know, in the forest. And that was enough for me to get in
love with the place, come back and also
buy a piece of land. And the question was, if I help this
piece of land, I will ask for the water rights. What happens if, you
(02:37):
know, I own my own, my own water rights. And
I did and realized that 70 hydroelectric companies
wanted to build seven different
projects and just destroyed the valley. And
that was something that moves me in the
point that I start with more neighbors,
(03:00):
this movement in order to protect the place. And we
are passing from being, you know, like,
reaction of Threats. And now
with this opportunity, we are acting to
conserve it forever. So solve the problem forever. Not only the
hydroelectric, but also roads and
(03:22):
also subdivision of land and
a massive tourism that can also be a big threat
for this kind of really endangered
environments. I'm very delicate. So that's why
after all these 20 years, we're in this opportunity and
now I'm blessed. I'm really. I feel blessed, you know, like, to
(03:45):
be part of this and being all this
time with the same objective without changing.
Rodrigo, I think so many people in a situation like
that would just accept it or say, oh, that's how things are.
Is it your personality or is it just a trade of people
in Chile that you just wouldn't leave it alone? And you kept chasing it down
(04:08):
until we got to the point where we are now. Well, I think it's the
place, man. In the end it's the place because the place is so
beautiful that it's like falling in love with someone and
that person is in problems, you know, like health problems. And
you do everything you can to help the person.
So in the end, it's not me, it's not the group or it's not the,
(04:31):
you know, like the people that is involved here, I think is the place
that deserve to be protected. And we understand
that and we took action. That's the only difference. Well,
the other half of that is Jose. So, Jose, how did you
end up involved in this? So I am from
Santiago, the capital of Chile, that is in the
(04:54):
central part of the country. And on
2007 I came as you
on a trip to find a place
away from people, away from big cities and
in the middle of nature, wild nature. So
I end arriving to the Puelo river
(05:16):
that is in the same county called
Cochamo. And with
some friends we bought this piece of land. And I start
coming since 2007 until
2012 that I moved from Santiago
to Puerto Varas, that is the major town
(05:39):
close to this place for work.
I found a real
estate company and we need a office here in
the south of Chile. And I it was my
biggest way to be close to
this part. So it was kind of like,
(06:01):
excuse so I can be closer to this
area. On 2013,
more or less, I met Rodrigo in
a ferry in the middle of the county.
There is a ferry that moves from one place to another
in a dirt road that gets to
(06:24):
the interim part of Cochamo, where I bought this piece
of land very away from the Cochamo Valley, very away
from where Rodrigo start protecting
this area. So I met him.
We have heard about each other, but we haven't
met before. And we start talking. And he
(06:46):
invited me on 2014, 2015,
when I joined Pueblo Patagonia to be part of Puerto Patagonia.
They found puerto Patagonia on
2013, and I joined them on
2015, when
another big hydroelectric project
(07:08):
was going to be built in
another valley. Different ballet than Kohamu Valley.
Imagine that Kohamu county are too many
valleys everywhere, too many rivers, very steep
valleys that you can build a lot of dam projects.
So the Kohamu county was seen as a
(07:30):
battery. So they can connect 27
hydroelectric power stations, but they need
to build the first one. So that's why I
joined Rodrigo and the other members of Colopatagonia
on that time to fight to this first project,
because if they connect the first one, they can connect the other
(07:53):
26. So that's why I
joined this conservation effort in that
time was an activist work.
When I was first told about Cochima Valley and Pucha
Guin, someone said, it's like Yosemite National Park.
And I said, oh, Yosemite is beautiful. And they said, yeah, but
(08:16):
it's not what you think. It's like Yosemite in 1830.
And I thought that was a clever comment until I went there and I
was like, oh, my goodness, this is pristine. What it's
almost like if you have a place like Yosemite and you get
to start over from scratch like nothing has ever happened,
and you get to step in and do it the right way. And I
(08:38):
know there are situations. You two have both got to visit national
parks in the United States, and it's something we're very good at
is parks. We've gone through stages, though, where
we've done things in parks that we wouldn't do now. And you see it
in Yellowstone and you see it in Yosemite, but you have a chance
to save a place that has nothing that is started.
(09:01):
It's just pure wilderness now. And it's so exciting.
And. And also you. You've heard us reference that we met in
Chile. I got to go on that expedition. We went by horseback up
the Cochimal Valley, stayed a few nights up there, did a lot of
hiking, flew over the whole area by helicopter. It was
just an incredible. And Rodrigo, when we were flying
(09:23):
over the lake, we saw a ferry, and Jose said,
that's where I met Rodrigo on that ferry. I thought that was neat that that
came up again. Yeah, right there. Yeah.
I will have to say, you know, Like Jose says, okay, I'm joined, but I
go all in. Otherwise I don't join. And we say, okay,
here we are working, you know, like after, wow, 11
(09:46):
years. No. Yeah, 10 years. Yeah. So
a decade of working towards something and it's finally
gonna happen. Where did you always know, Rodrigo?
Did you always think this would happen? Or are you
surprised that it's finally going to be protected
after a decade of fighting? Yeah, well, you know,
(10:07):
you take one fight at a time, and we were fighting,
fighting. But in the end you say, why don't
we stop fighting, you know, like against all these threats.
And in the back of my head, but also the back of
everybody, was what we are doing now,
conserving this place forever. And we couldn't do it before
(10:29):
because the owner didn't have the titles right.
And in the moment he had the titles right, he put it
right away for sale. And we right away,
in six months, seven months, we give him the
first offer. So it was part of the vision from the
beginning. We were dreaming about this, and we didn't
(10:51):
know how to do it. We didn't know who were going to be our
partners. We knew that we have to do
it. And this property is a big chance of doing this
conservation corridor, and it will help local
communities to develop and we will, doing
our dream, protect as much as possible this
(11:13):
county. And this is a great step, without a
doubt. And we saw the opportunity.
We went directly take it and
be brave. Here we are working, you know,
where we can see the finish line in front of us
after two years of work. There is another
(11:35):
person in this story that at times, it
depends on how you look at it, they either have tremendously
helped this project or I guess on how
you're telling the story, they could have been the bad guy in the story, but
without the person that. There's one person that,
if you can correct my details, if I'm right or wrong,
(11:57):
ended up consolidating 200 individual
parcels into 325,000 acres being
under one title, one ownership. And without that,
this wouldn't have played out the way it did. Is that right?
Yes, it is. This guy that is the
owner of this 325,000 acres
(12:18):
property is the same that we were
fighting for six, seven years against
this hydroelectric project. So we
were adversaries for 10 years. We
stopped his project. We make him
lose a lot of money to him and his partners.
(12:42):
So we weren't friends at all
at the end, like you are saying, Jody, he
did, I don't know, crucial Work
for this opportunity that he, it was consolidating
the titles in one title that he
could sell for the highest bidder that
(13:06):
at the end we realized why we
are not that bitter. So
we, like Rodrigo was saying, we saw the
opportunity, we take action. And
not in my best dreams.
I see this coming with these
(13:29):
great partners that are working with us, with
all the local community being
part of this project and
also building the necessary
trust with the owner that at the end
we have this deal that is not yet
(13:52):
end, but we are close to
conservate this place forever. But
there is still work to do. So at the end
he did his job, a very important one.
But if you see in another
way, if we didn't fight
(14:14):
him before, he also
couldn't sell the property now.
And at the end it's a win win for everybody. And I think he also
have this dream that at the end the property have
a conservation or protected,
I don't know, gold for the place. Yeah, he did a big
(14:37):
discount also and that's very good
for conservation efforts because you know, money is
always an issue for buying this kind of land. It's such
a fascinating story that somebody that you fought
and you were not friends, I would imagine
he didn't like you. You had to have been a thorn in his side for
(14:59):
a decade and then in the end you were such
disruptors and then he still works with you to not only
sell it to you, but at a discount. And it just makes
me think that the way you two went about being disruptive,
you still somehow had to have made a good impression on him. And
you must have done it in a way that he respected
(15:22):
what you did enough that he would work with you and that he would give
a discount. When you look back on that, what was it
that you did where you could be disruptive to
him and be so fierce in protecting this place,
but in a way that was so respectful that he was willing to,
to work with you after a decade. Yeah, well, you
(15:45):
know, like, because this was a really big project that
from our point of view it was going to
do a big impact. And especially because what
Jose was saying, this was the first hydroelectric power
plant. And then you know, they have the, the lines
there, the transmissions line, so it's easy to keep
(16:07):
adding more electric power plants. So I think
we really, that was the big win more than,
you know, like only the electric power plant that we fought.
But in the end what we did, it was a technical job in,
you know, like technical and legal job that we
finished in Supreme Court after five years and we won.
(16:30):
It was of course like anything you're doing in life
is work, professionalism and lucky also.
So we had a little bit of everything and
we were in the right time. And also we keep fighting until the end.
And I think that in any situation it will, you
know, like in. If you are in a battle with someone, you will respect
(16:53):
your the one you have in front. Because he. They were
fighting until the end and we were fighting until the end. We were
lucky enough that we won, but we both
fight, you know, like we were playing the game. Both
wanted to win and one had to win only. And that was
us at this time. But I think nothing is
(17:16):
just the technical and legal work that we did. But also
we didn't take it to a personal
side of this legal fight. I think
that was one thing important and the other one that
I We think that he realized this was
David versus Goliath. We were David, we were small,
(17:39):
no resources, no big friends, just
will to stop this. Because we knew
that this was not the way that
Kochamon needs to develop the place.
At the end, with just few resources,
but a lot of will and
(18:01):
commitment, we won. And I think that
in any way, when you see when there's someone that is
weak and it wins over
a strong one, you respect the weak
one and you change your mindset about them. So
I think he realized that even we were small,
(18:24):
without resources and he was big with power,
with resources, with the best attorneys, everything.
He realized that we were fearless
opponent, but also wants to have respect
on us. And at the end also because
we get close to him through a
(18:48):
common friend and we did an anonymous first
offer, of course very low. And at
the end he said no. But then when
we met for the first time, he started
realizing that even that we were
adversaries for so long. We were at the
(19:10):
same time his way out his exit because
he realized that if we have
big friends now with resources, we
could be more fearless than
before. At the end he realized
that there was a way to build the
(19:32):
necessary trust, like I said before,
to build this opportunity for both
of us. Him a way of exit a good deal
for him, but also a good deal for
conservation for the territory. So
I think there is a mutual respect now on
(19:55):
both sides. But also he realized that
he don't want to be this bad guy and he
want to leave Kochmo as someone that
add some value to the conservation effort as well.
So the beginning of the story took 10 years or more
(20:15):
to get to where you Are now there's a deal in place,
you're still raising money. I don't want to discount
that part, the fundraising part. I know how hard it is. I
know it's nonstop on you guys that you always presenting,
always meeting new people, always pitching. That is really
hard work. I don't want to discount that. It does look
(20:37):
inevitable that the funds will get raised
and Poocha Kin will forever be protected.
I want to for a moment anyway skip over the middle part
of the story, which is the fundraising and get to the
forever part of the story. Once the purchase is complete
and it's protected, then what happens? What's the plan
(20:59):
after that? Well, it's a long plan.
Yeah, that's the first part. Well, first of all,
once we purchase the land, we have at least two years
of planification and making the conservation
plan. So we have to present this to
(21:21):
the government in order to have a legal layer of
protection. Right. So then we are aiming
to have at least 80% of the land in a street
conservation category as park or even
higher and 20% where the all the
infrastructure will be where the local community
(21:42):
use this land. The actual uses of the land we can
guarantee with this multi layer of protection. That is the other
20%. We have to find out the exact category,
but it's a flexible one where you have conservation, but
also you can have tourism or
agriculture or anything that it will not impact that much.
(22:04):
But that is useful for the local community. That for us is
really, really important. And tourism is a big part of
this project because what we have been
seeing in their territory is that tourism has the
capacity of the giving great experience as you did, you know, like,
but also have the ability to protect the land as
(22:27):
you are seeing that it is happening. But most of
it, it has the ability of giving job to the local
community. And I think responsible
tourism is a really great and
powerful tool where conservation and
tourism can join together. So I think it will be
(22:48):
two years of applying, maybe less and
start building the infrastructure necessary to have
visitors and to take care of the place and then
run the place for a long time and
give it as I said before, or give it to the government with
a strong layer of protection and the rest for tourism and
(23:11):
develop. So imagine a very
isolated place where people live
and the closest town is
6, 7, 10 hours by horse.
So that's kind of the context where
we are trying to build this conservation effort.
(23:34):
Where we also want to highlight this way of
life and respect that
those historic uses of the land, those
trails that we Walk with you, Jody. It's
a trail of 120 years old
where people move cattle from the mountains to the
(23:56):
sea. Even where Butch Cassidy and Sundance
Kid move stolen cattle from the
Argentina to Chile. So what we want to
do in a conservation way
is to join two uses. One
is conservation, but the other one is a way of life that
(24:19):
it's kind of a owner who has
lived there for these 100 years in the
territory. So at the end the tourists
in is the kind of vehicle
to achieve a kind of develop for
those people. But at the same time we are trying
(24:41):
to have these multi layers of
protection in the land. But at the same time we
want to have this fertile land that
some others can come and
also develop other parts that we are not going to be
able to do. One example, for example, health
(25:03):
services or educational services improve
those that we don't have or we have
a little. So this is a hundred years project. That
is a statement. So we will start
this project. Probably we will not see the end because
it's. I don't know, it's like you were saying, It's
(25:26):
Yosemite of 1830. So what we want to
do is to put the
land in favor that others can come
and develop the needs that the people and the nature
have in this place. So at the end is a long
conservation effort, but it's also a long community
(25:49):
development effort. Is this is a project for
people with people. It's such a
unique and well, it. The approach that you're doing
with it to include people that are already there
because there are small pockets in
Puchaguin that's going to be protected where people have been there
(26:11):
about a hundred years. Right. People have been there a long time and now
the area is going to end up protected. And this is
not one of those situations where they will say, okay,
you now are we're turning this into a national park. You're out of here.
Or at minimum to say, this is how you have to
live now that it's a park. This is really being done with
(26:35):
not only them in mind, but consulting them and finding out how
they use the land, why they use the land. And I think that's just
a really nice approach that
maybe wouldn't. When you fight for protection of a place to include
the people that are already there. I just think the way you're going
about this is really unique and it's good to see. So this
(26:58):
is the park ranger podcast
or the park leader rangers. And all these local
communities are the real park rangers in this area.
So this is, I don't know, a monument for
them. Honor them. Yeah. Very cool. Well,
Jose mentioned the trail, and I'm glad you brought up
(27:20):
that trail because it was how we got through the
Cochima Valley on horseback. And you two learned right away
I'm very green on riding a horse. I had no
idea what I was doing. I'm sure you figured that out pretty quickly.
But what an amazing experience. Not only to ride
through the forest like that, to spend all day on a horse, just
(27:43):
incredible. But as we went along, the story
for me unfolded about the trail, about how historic
it is and what it was used for. And you. You can really see,
you go through places where 120 years of
hooves have carved down, and you'll have
walls barely wider than my shoulders that are taller than me
(28:05):
at some points. And it is just a really cool piece
of history. I did not know while we were there that Butch
Cassidy and the Sundance Kid had ridden that trail with
some cattle. That would have fascinated me even more while we were there. I learned
that after I got home, so I'm glad you mentioned that. And with
this group that we were with, Jose and Rodrigo, they
(28:28):
knew all right, we've got to keep an eye on these Americans.
So Rodrigo usually was at the front of the group. Jose was
usually at the back of the group. And if I am not in the very
front, I like to be in the very back. And I
take my time. I look at everything. And Jose,
because he was at the back of the group most of the time, he had
(28:50):
to put up with that with me, that I had stopped constantly.
I had questions about nearly everything we saw. So, Jose, I don't know if
I told you while we were there, I appreciate you being so
patient and hiking slow with me so I could look at things
and answering my 10 questions every
100ft. Now, we had a.
(29:11):
A great moment, Jody, with you and everybody and.
And I really enjoy. I'm like you when I'm in. In
the. At first I go fast, but
it's good to have Rodrigo in front because
he maintain normal
walk and going at the end.
(29:33):
Enjoying with you in this time, but with others
in other trips, it's been kind of for me
because I am always in a hurry, like
anxious. Someone is chasing me always. So
it's good to take the time, go slower,
talk when you have all these questions. And I really enjoyed that you
(29:56):
were so interest on knowing more about the
wildlife, nature, but also the history that
was behind from this territory. So it
was a Pleasure for me as well, Jody. Oh, well, thank you. I had
a fantastic time and I am absolutely in love
with the Alersa tree now. What an amazing
(30:19):
tree. I started hearing about that tree. So the
day I arrived in Puerto Viares, Rodrigo was nice
enough to invite Dewan Rivers and I to go whitewater
rafting. And the other person with us that day, Brady,
he started talking about the Alersa tree. And then when I
met Jose, he started talking about the Alersa tree. And I kept
(30:42):
thinking, this must be some tree if I heard
about it two days before I've even got to see one of these trees. And
then we make it up deeper into the valley, up into the mountains, and I
got to see an alert for the first time. And they are fascinating.
What a beautiful tree. It is. Yeah, it's,
you know, it's. It's been in the present of a
(31:04):
living organism that can live
5,000 years old, you know, like. So the ones we
saw maybe 3220, 500. But
you know, they have the capacity of maybe being the
oldest tree in the world. There is one in
Grana, it's called one tree that one of the
(31:27):
universities in Chile studied and they think they it
is 5,470 years. That's a lot.
That's a lot. And it's a really special because also, you know,
like, it's look for you maybe is familiar because it's a
iconifer, right. And it's taller than the
(31:47):
sequoia, but older than the redwood. So
it's a very unique. Yeah, it is. So
they are so special. You are totally right. It's a great tree.
And we are protecting 11% of that tree in the world. So
it's a big deal for us. And before the Alercy
was so exploded that almost
(32:10):
disappear. So in the early 70s, I think
the Chilean government protected by law the
tree and it became a national
monument. So there are some places that are very
far away in the mountains like this that you can still see
these Alerce forest that are very special,
(32:32):
very big, very old. They have been there for a
long time and see the change. And they
are. Well, nowadays they are witness of
climate change as well. So you can study climate
through them. So I think Alerce
is one special natural monument
(32:55):
that we have in Kuchamu. But also we have the
Wamul deer. I know that you in America have
too much deers. Super deers. Super deers.
But for us, this is the
southernmost deer in the world and there
are only 2,000 left in
(33:17):
wildness. So that's also
part of the wilderness that we have here
in Koachamu. Yeah. There, from what I saw and
heard, there's not a lot of wildlife in
Cochimal. But what you have is unique. The deer
Jose mentioned, the world's smallest deer is there. One of the most
(33:39):
unique frogs is there. I think the smallest
wild cat in the world is there. Right. So pretty
unique stuff. I didn't. I did not see that
much wildlife. I saw a Chilean red bat. I think you were with me when
we saw that, Rodrigo. I was excited about that. And
a bird chow. Is that right, Jose?
(34:03):
Yeah. Okay. And you miss. And you missed
the condor. You were seeing the Al&T
flew over us, but goes into the mountains.
I know I was too wrapped up in an alersa tree and I missed the
condor. Okay. We've talked all this time
about Co Valley, but Jose and Rodrigo
(34:26):
just took a trip to the States. There was an event in Jackson,
Wyoming, to raise awareness for this project. And
I know you've both been to the United States before. How was this trip?
Did you get to visit any parks while you were here? Yes,
well, it was a very fast
trip. We arrived on a Sunday, and I
(34:48):
live on a Friday morning. But we had the chance to
go to Grand Titus, and it was amazing. We had
a wonderful weather. We were
guided by a TNC
member, a staff member. So he took us to a
very special place. It was a lake. I
(35:10):
don't remember right now the name, but it was very beautiful.
Phelps Lake. It was very beautiful. We saw
deers, and also we saw a moose. And
it's fantastic to see, for example, the visitor
center. So we were, like, studying how
we can do things here as well, because you
(35:33):
have, I don't know, very good things that we can
copy that could improve
the experience in the wilderness here.
But it was fantastic. We have difference in
how we can approach the mountains. You
have different and I think,
(35:55):
easy to get mountains. We have,
I don't know, different ways to arrive to the
mountains. More difficult to us in that way. But
I loved Grand Titus. I want to go and come back with
family, make a road trip. You have fantastic things to
do. And I really enjoy to visit Wyoming.
(36:19):
Yeah. Rodrigo, did you. You go to the Tetons? Did you go into Yellow?
You. So you were asking me about, should I go to Yellowstone, should I go
to Glacier? What did you end up doing? Yeah, well, yeah, I
had like one more week than
Jose, so then I went to Yellowstone. Yeah, I
wanted to see the fauna. I went to see Animals. And it
(36:41):
was walking 50km that. I don't
know how many miles is that, But I was walking in the
back country with my tent, my sleeping bag, my. So it
was a whole experience for me because, you know, like, first thing that I
realized that I had to buy a filter to filter the water in order
to drink. We here in Chile, we just drink the water. So that was the
(37:03):
first thing. Second thing, my weapon that it was like the
bear spray that they didn't. You know, it was
my first time sleeping in the. In the outdoors, in the
wilderness, in the back country. I was afraid because this first time
that I was sleeping by myself in a place with nobody
else around with birds.
(37:25):
Birds, you know, like for us, danger animals. So it
was anyways, you know, like those 50km walk
was fantastic. You can see that it's the oldest park in the
world. The animals. I saw so many. I saw
much animals than people in the backcountry. And
every encounter for me, that it was magical. So I had
(37:48):
a really great time. And the other side, you know,
having the chance of. I was walking in the geysers.
They are everywhere. So it's like sitting. I mean,
walking in a bomb, you know, in a. It was,
wow, this is something else, something really unique. And
I was so glad to get to know this place because of the
(38:11):
fauna, but because it's the first park in the world. So
it's a very good way of getting inspiration for
what we are doing right now. Oh, that's so good to hear. And
Rodrigo had asked me when we were together, should I go to
Yellowstone or should I go to Glacier? And I said,
that is one of the best questions anyone can ask, but it depends on
(38:33):
what do you want to see. And Rodrigo said,
wildlife. And I said, hands down, it's got to be Yellowstone.
Glacier is perhaps my favorite place on earth. But if
you're going for wildlife, it's got to be Yellowstone because it
is the highest concentration of wildlife in North America. And
you'll never be disappointed there. Yeah. And it sounds like you
(38:55):
were not. It sounds like you saw everything you hoped you would. Yeah, you
were totally right. So I just follow your advice and. And next
time will be Glacier. All right, well, when
you go to Glacier, I'll be there with you. I'll show you all the good
spots. Okay, so you two have a David and
Goliath underdog conservation story. In
(39:18):
my mind, you. You are just champions of conservation,
your conservation leaders. So I'm going to start with
you, Jose. What advice do you have for an up and
coming conservation leader who wants to have an impact, just do
it. Don't hesitate on your, on your
principles, on your gut. I think
(39:40):
we move by and from
love and I think this case was that
we really love the plagues, we really love the way
of life, we really love the people there. But also
now we love each other with all these
wonderful alliance that we build
(40:03):
this year. So I think there
are people out there that want to
help but sometimes they don't know
how. I think you just need to
say, hide your voice like make
loud, like talk loud. Like go and say hey,
(40:27):
I want to help how I can help. This is not
just about us. There are too many
people around this project. There are too many
histories behind us. And we
were just there in the right moment and we
took the opportunity. Opportunities come
(40:49):
every day and you can take it or leave it and
we take it. And at the end, for these
10 years, a decade, we didn't
think about this end for this.
Like we were not working for personal
interest. We were truly working
(41:13):
for the place and the people. And I think that
when you do things 100%,
the outcomes will be the same
as the effort that you put on. So I think just do
it. Don't hesitate and be brave. And
there are a lot of loses and
(41:36):
a lot of cries in between, but
you will have those
wins in the middle and you have to enjoy
as well those moments. Because I think life is
about good moments but also bad moments. And
that will make you get through
(41:58):
your, how to say it, what you really want to
achieve at the end. It's not easy, it's not
short, and sometimes you will have pain.
But at the end, if you did it in 100%,
you will have joy. That is great advice
and I also want to make sure that I mentioned that with
(42:21):
Jose's guidance, the last day in Puerto
Varas, I ordered dinner in Spanish. That could have
been my big moment while in Chile. Pizza.
Yes. Oh, pizza. That's right. Yes. All I ordered was a
three cheese pizza, but it was, it was still a stretch for me to order
that in Spanish, but I did it. Okay,
(42:42):
Rodrigo, you started this whole
thing and that's why I want to finish with you. Because
you were bold enough to speak up and do
things that most people wouldn't be willing to do. What advice do
you have for an up and coming conservation leader who wants to have an
impact? You know, when you see this effort up to
(43:05):
the days that we are working right now, it's a
effort of many People like, it's amazing how
people get to know the place, feel the energy,
right. And then start working through food for conservation.
And I think having an ordinary star
that is the care taking care of the place and
(43:28):
conservate forever like one northern star that
moves everyone to the same direction, I think it is
really a big part of it. And the second is
egos. Is the ego in any
group, you know, like can be a problem and, and leave
those egos behind also helps a lot in order
(43:50):
to look and watch and follow this
northern start. So I think those are very important things.
And the last thing that I want to make a quick
reflection is that there is not many wild places in our
earth, you know, because conservation is a long term vision.
I think the places that are left are surrounded by
(44:12):
people because we have more people than 150
years ago when Yellowstone national park was
the first park. Right. So now it's impossible to do
conservation without the people. I think it's something that
we are doing it but for us it's natural because we see that
it's the only way to do it. Well, this has been
(44:35):
wonderful seeing you two again, hearing the story again and
just talking about the great work that you've done. It is. I told
Jose and Rodrigo before that Americans love
a underdog story and you two are an underdog
story. And I did learn my time in Chile that when you're in South
America, do not refer to our country as America,
(44:58):
call it the United States. I learned that, but my audience
is mostly in the United States. So I feel comfortable at the moment
saying Americans. But while I'm in Chile, it is the United
States. So that's. I know I was wrapping up, but if
it's best to call the United States of America the United
States, what do you call people from the United States? Are we
(45:20):
Americans or what do you call us? Americans.
Americans. All right.
Well, you two are doing great work. If anyone wants to
find out about the work you're doing and
oh, I messed it up. I was trying to say it fast like you guys
do and I messed it up. But if we want to find out the work
(45:42):
you're doing and keep up and celebrate with you as this whole project
gets finished, where can we do that and where can we find out more?
So you can find us on
puelopatagonia.com
that's our in the call, the name of our NGO
and about the this specific project
(46:05):
is conserva puchein.com as
well. It's a tricky name. It's not
easy for English speakers, but maybe
Jody can post it on the same tag of the
podcast. Yeah, that's right. We'll put it in the show notes and
you've you've just heard how much cooler Jose
(46:27):
and Rodrigo sound when they say these names versus when I try
to stumble my way through them. That's why I just conceded and let them say
it. Nobody don't feel bad because when you speak English is the same for us.
You sound much cooler than us
talking in English. We speak a jungle English. We say,
well, it was so wonderful of you two to come and be
(46:49):
on the show. I had such a great time in Chile. The people
are wonderful. You are very generous and gracious and wonderful
hosts. I throw thoroughly enjoyed my time. I hope I will be back.
This was just one of many times we'll get to spend time together down
there. Raymond all up there or up there?
Yes. You have an open invitation for I'll meet you at
(47:12):
Glacier National Park. I live right by Olympic national park. So
let's go for a hike. It was great to see you again. Thank you so
much and thank you for listening to the Park Leader Show
Sa.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.