August 5, 2025 • 50 mins
"You take care of the people, and they will take care of the park."
Notable Moments
[00:01:26] Introduction to the four types of park managers
[00:02:04] Deep dive into People First management
[00:14:24] Park First leadership and its focus on stewardship
[00:26:56] Process Driven management: pros, cons, and structure
[00:36:14] Personality Driven management and its unpredictable nature
[00:45:14] Phil’s insight: success is found in a hybrid model
In this episode, Jody Maberry and Phil Gaines explore the four primary types of park managers: People First, Park First, Process Driven, and Personality Driven. They reflect on the advantages and cautions of each style while sharing personal stories and leadership lessons. They emphasize the importance of authenticity and the value of blending leadership approaches to best serve parks, staff, and visitors.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Park Leader show where we are changing the landscape of
leadership in parks and conservation. I'm your host, Jody
Mayberry. And back by popular demand, the
semi regular guest co host, the
retired director of South Carolina State Parks,
a professor at Clemson University, Ranger Phil
(00:24):
Gaines. Phil, it's always good to have you back. It's always good
to be back. Jody. How are you doing, my friend? I'm doing good, Phil, but
I have to tell you, your title and introduction is getting so
long it's almost like an episode to itself. I
know that and it's, you know, and probably I'm just
flattered to be here. Just good old ranger Phil works for me. All right.
(00:46):
Ranger Phil told me even his students at
Clemson call him Ranger Phil. Yeah, I like that. All
right, Phil, I have an episode coming. Well, this
episode has been in the works for 10
years. I first had this idea 10 years ago. I
took notes on it and I never recorded it. But I think you
(01:08):
are the man to have this conversation with, Phil. It's a
deep one, it's a big one. And it's about the four
types of park managers. And so what I want to do is talk
about the four types of managers, talk about why that's a good
thing, the cautions and how to succeed with those managers.
So that's what we're going to do. And I'll even set you, set you up
(01:30):
here that when I originally took these notes I had only three
and Phil introduced me to a new type of park
manager that we're going to talk about that I personally
never worked with. So Phil, probably have the lead on that. And as
we go into it I will say there are four types of park
managers. People first, park first, process first
(01:53):
and personality first. And we will explain all of them. And
I'm going to start with best. So we're going to get the really good one
out of the way and then go down from there.
The first one being a people first, a
people driven park manager. Now Phil,
you jump in at any time on this, but from my experience,
(02:15):
people driven park manager, the staff, the
team comes even before park visitors and before
the park. This is a manager that emphasizes
relationships. The manager knows every staff member
personally and then helps provide opportunities
to allow that person to grow as an individual. Now I'm
(02:37):
going to talk about the benefits of a people driven park manager. People.
But do you have anything else to add about this style of management, Phil?
No, you know, it's, you said like we start with the best one first. So
that was Kind of almost idealistic and you know, kind of hard
to maintain, I guess is one way I would put it. But you
know, you want to work for somebody like that, right, who cares about their people
(02:59):
and puts in, has your back, you know, when something goes
wrong, either something goes wrong or something happens with a visitor. So
yeah, that's who you want to work for, for sure. Yeah, that's right.
You, you are lucky if you get a manager like this. The benefits are
that this whole concept of people driven park
management, it's based on the idea of you take care of the people,
(03:22):
they will take care of the park, take care of your people, they'll take care
of the park visitors. And I feel like this is, you're
more likely to see park rangers and staff, rest
of the staff express themselves as individuals
under this type of system. And there are cautions,
Phil, and I say it's idealistic, but there are cautions. But Phil,
(03:45):
what benefits do you see from a people driven
management style? Well, again, I think you build trust.
And with that building of trust, you also kind of build confidence
with that employee to where they're more engaged
in the process. I love the word engaged because that's one of the things
that you want your employees to be, is engaged in the process.
(04:08):
And to your point earlier, that's what enables
you as the leader, who's the people person. You engage
that person because they have trust in you and confidence in you and it's
their ability to make things happen and it
creates creativity and that engagement that
allows, you know, people on the front lines to
(04:30):
take responsibility, but to also make things happen and to address
issues. And to your point earlier as well is that
it allows them to take care of the park because you're taking
care of them. And that enables them, empowers them to
take care of the park and the people that you serve. So that's a
really good benefit and strong. You know, probably its best asset
(04:53):
is you've engaged and empowered people to do what the big mission
is and that's to take care of the park and the people. Yeah, that's good,
Phil. I, I like that. That could be one of the, the most
beneficial aspects of people driven park management
is you're taking care of them and you trust them to
go and do what needs to be done. And sure. And as that
(05:15):
person, who's it, who's watching that leader, you feel you have
more confidence to go and do that because you know that person's got
your back if something, if you mess up or something. Goes wrong, they got
your back. And that's where you engage people and you know,
empower people to, to do things on that entry level or
that that level that deals with part visitors and the part more probably than the
(05:38):
manager does. One Phil touched on exactly what
I was going to mention. Sure things will go wrong if you
allow people to go what go do what needs to be done.
They will make mistakes, they will have errors in judgment, they will mess
up. But a people driven park manager deals
with that situation individually. Phil,
(06:00):
I'm certain you've seen it in parks where someone will mess
up and then the park manager says, that's it, Phil did
this. So now nobody can do this anymore. Rather than just
deal with what Phil did, there's a new policy
in place. Well, you don't see that in this style of
management, right? Okay, so the cautions,
(06:22):
as much as Phil and I like this management style, here are the
cautions. It does take more work. If you are the
manager doing this style. It does take more work, especially
if two people are not getting along. Some people may
get jealous because if you are treating everyone individually,
then someone on the team may get jealous of the
(06:45):
attention or the opportunities they see other people getting and
they may say everything should be equal. And then I
feel like this management style can really be a
grind. If not everybody buys in, if there's
someone who just will not buy in, it really is a
grind on the manager because it steals the
(07:07):
attention that you want to give helping other people develop. It
steals all of that and puts it on the one person that hasn't bought in
or is causing trouble. What other cautions do you see in
this management style, Phil? Well, the short version is
it's hard. And you know, part of it being hard
is there on the front end, that park
(07:29):
manager has a lot of work to do to create that
atmosphere and create that feeling. And so one of it is you got to provide
good direction, good vision and be able. It's
not just say you have a great day, Jody, and go do whatever you want
to do to make this park wonderful. It's not Pollyannish like that. It's
like you've got to provide specific goals, direction,
(07:51):
you know, do all that stuff with what the mission
vision of the park is, those core values and all that kind of stuff. So
that's got to be ingrained from the very beginning that they understand that. And then
the other thing that's really hard about that, to be able to do that
park manager or leader needs to develop confidence
in Themselves, they're okay with
(08:12):
Ranger Jody going out and taking care of business
and empowering them and engaging them in the day to day work.
So it takes confidence in that because you're kind of putting
yourself in Ranger Jody's abilities.
And if he goes out and does something wrong, you know, you've created this
atmosphere that is, you know, we're going to fix that. And it's not
(08:34):
that y' all can't never do that again because Jody's screwed it
up. It's like, we got to fix that. So that
manager or that leader has to have a
pretty good degree of confidence in his abilities
and be okay with what he is because he's
really empowering other people to do some stuff. That's why there's a lot of homework
(08:56):
on the front end of like, what's the mission, vision, core
values? What do we want to do this season? What do
we want to do this year? You know, what are our long term desired results
to make this part the very best there is in our system. So
it's not really a disadvantage. It's just, it's hard.
So it, it's not just being, you know, everything's
(09:18):
rainbows and unicorns and y' all go out and have a good day. It's like,
you know, developing that so that you have the tools to go out
and make a difference. And with that comes preparation and
confidence. That's really good, Phil. Now
let's talk about how to succeed. If you are
at a park that has a park manager who operates in
(09:40):
this style, I think the keys are to respect
individuals and individuality. You can't
want everything to be equal for every park ranger.
If you have this type of park manager, it just doesn't work that
way. In this setting. You have to understand that the manager
has put a lot of trust in you. Because if the manager
(10:03):
doesn't put a lot of trust in everybody, this system doesn't
work. And if you want to succeed in this style
of management, you have to work as hard for the park visitor as the
manager is working for you. The whole concept of
this style management is built on that idea that the manager
will take care of you and you take care of the park visitor. Phil, what
(10:25):
else do you have to add about how to succeed with a people
driven park manager? I think it's, you have to be
authentic and you can't be phony and you can't just, you
know, because people will see through that and they'll see that this is not
authentic. This is, you know, this lip service or whatever you want to say. So
I think authenticity is really, really important in that
(10:47):
leaders concept. And then, you know, I'm not sure where this
category goes, but you said it earlier. Is it. You have to be
okay that sometimes you have to have the right people and you can do everything
right, and there's somebody on your staff that's like,
this is crazy. You know, I'm not doing this. This is silly or
whatever, or they don't buy into it, and they're just in that, you know,
(11:10):
making a day. You know, I'm. I'm here to, to do what I'm supposed to
do today and not be on that. So you can't get frustrated.
And that's. I think that's part of going back to being authentic. And hopefully
eventually even the ones who are not a right fit start understanding
that you're sincere and you're authentic in this approach, and they give it
their best shot. Yeah. Phil, during your
(11:32):
wonderful parks career, did you ever work for a people driven
park manager? This is terrible to say this. I don't know
if I have. I don't know if I ever worked for a people
driven park manager. I think I've. I've worked for some
hybrids, but not a full blown. I'm gonna take
care of my people regardless. And by the time when I was working
(11:54):
for park managers was a long time ago, and the world was a little bit
different. So this was kind of a radical approach for, you
know, a long time ago. But I think I worked probably for a
Howard hybrid. I always wanted to work for people first
manager, but I'm not sure I ever did. I hope they're not
listening, or if they are listening, they know that they didn't. But, yeah, I'm not
(12:16):
sure I ever did. But again, you know, you learn lessons from good leaders
and from bad leaders and from good mentors and from people
say, man, I'm not going to be like that. So. And
sometimes this is all hard stuff, you know, and especially these,
these ones that you really want to be like the people who do it. If
you've. So I'll ask you that question, Jodi, have you worked for people
(12:38):
first person? And if the answer is
yes, then my guess is now that you have
some wisdom along the journey is that you recognize that, man,
that was a pretty tall feat to do that because
there's a lot of pressure in the workplace not to be people first.
So if you find a people first manager, it's like, it's pretty
(13:02):
special and it's because it's so hard, you probably appreciate it even
more. So did you work for people first person? I was
lucky enough to have one manager that was. The manager
that hired me into parks was a people first.
And I learned a lot from, from him. Just
incredible. And there are some areas
(13:24):
that, as we go through the others, that some of there are
benefits to the others that we'll talk about that maybe aren't here. And so
perhaps a hybrid that Phil was talking about, maybe in a park
setting you need some of that. But yes, I was lucky
enough to work people first and it, it just shaped the rest
of my park career. I realized how lucky I was to get to work for
(13:46):
a people first manager. Yeah. Do you recognize now, like
looking back of like after you've seen other examples
and stuff of like how special that was or how unique that
was? I guess. Yeah, that's right. And I thought that's
how it would always be because that was my first park manager and I thought,
my goodness, they, they have wonderful leaders and managers here in
(14:08):
parks, which is true. On balance, it is true. There's wonderful leaders
in parks. I just thought it was always going to be people first and that's
not always the case. Yeah. Or as ranger Phil would lead us
to believe, that is perhaps never the case. It is a
unicorn when it happens. But that takes us to the next
style of park management and that is a park driven park
(14:31):
manager. Now, what is park first? If you operate park first, what
is that? Well, it's simply the park comes first.
That is our number one priority. We are here for the park. The park
has priority over staff. The park has priority
over visitors. Before I get to benefits,
Phil, what else do you have to add for park first management?
(14:53):
I think that's really, really close. The only thing I would add is
that it's, it has those resource stewardship
components to it and it recognizes the role
of, you know, I don't want to say caretaker, but I want to
say steward of like we are here because of this
park and the most important thing is is this park and
(15:16):
making sure that it's here and we take care of what is there and is
in benefits for future generations. So more than a
caretaker. But you know, it's like, you know, you're the steward of
that resource and the resource is the most important thing. Yeah, that's right.
That's a good addition. Okay. The benefits, you know what
to expect. I think most of the time when you work for a
(15:38):
manager like this, usually everyone is treated the Same.
The park operates extremely well. When
everyone buys in, it can be easy to understand what needs to
be done. I feel like it really encourages collaboration
across all areas of your park. In a big park, that is
really helpful that people come from the different areas to
(16:01):
this one wherever needs help, because it's park
first. That's what it needs. And I do feel perhaps
of all the park management styles we're going to talk about,
the park operates most effectively and
efficiently at the park as an entity. Now, we're.
Yes, Phil, and I said people driven is the best, but the
(16:23):
park probably operates the best under a park first
park manager. What do you have to add for benefits, Phil?
Well, I was going to say that the, you know, the thing about the park
first is there's no surprises. Everybody knows expectations,
and it is very efficient. So everybody knows no matter
where you're at in the pecking order or good employee, bad
(16:45):
employee, you know, the expectations. So. So one of the
benefits is there's really not a lot of gray as
far as management goes, because everybody knows what expectations are.
And, you know, there are real, almost black
and white standards of, you know, this park has to do this,
and that means this has to be done in this almost like list and everything.
(17:07):
So, you know, to reiterate what you said, it's. It's very
efficient, I think is a good answer. Yeah, good. Okay.
The cautions. In this park management style, there
can be less individuality, less room to test
ideas. The needs of the park always come
first, and park needs are relentless. It never
(17:29):
stops. So if the park needs come first and it never
stops, well, that, that can be a caution. This can
lack relationships among staff, and
it can be easy for someone on the staff to
feel like they're left behind. Phil, you have any comments on that or
additional cautions to add? Yeah, I think if
(17:53):
I would say the disadvantages of it is, and this is probably
from my perspective, as, you know, I'm so fascinated with leadership, and that kind of
stuff is almost limits growth of employees
because it's like, you know, there's not a lot of room for, you know, and
the other thing I did is it kind of sometimes limits innovation
so that growth and innovation is like, it's, you know, there's not a lot
(18:15):
of room for that because this is all about this. And there's
no room for development, I guess, in growth for the
individual because it's, you know, everybody knows what we got to do. It's all about
this park, and it's not really about growth. Of employees and that kind
of stuff. Although that happens and you do, but it's, it
kind of limits, you know, some of that innovation and growth
(18:38):
of maybe we could do this better or maybe we could do this different
or we never thought of that kind of thing. You know, you got
to really think about. That's why I love the hybrid approach to some of
these, because they all kind of have their place in stuff.
But if you're just thinking about the parking, you're not thinking about the growth of
the people who are serving that park, then you, you hadn't got the full potential
(19:01):
out of it. Yeah, that's good. All right. How do you succeed working
for a park driven park manager?
First, understand the priorities of the manager, which can be easy
to find out. Just ask and you're, you'll likely find out.
Understand the expectations that the manager has of
you. Once you understand those expectations,
(19:23):
it's pretty easy to perform in the way you need to perform.
And then when every park ranger wants to
have some say in what's going on and contribute
and I think in this setting, be able to explain
how your ideas benefit the park. Because that's this management
style is you are there for the park, you're steward of the park.
(19:46):
You're not likely going to get to try something because you want to
do it for your development or to build your resume.
You have to be able to explain how your idea benefits the park. And if
you can do that, understand priorities, expectations, and
be able to explain how what you want to do will benefit the park. I
think you can do well with this management style. What do you have, Phil,
(20:08):
for how to succeed? Well, I think you said it is
like, you know what boxes need to be checked so you know when you've been
successful because it's, you know, the goals and the outline of what
your duties and, and what your priorities are, is all about the park. So you,
you know what the expectations are and you can check
those boxes. I think you also understand
(20:31):
if you're strategic in this, you also understand what you're
rewarded for. So that kind of helps you in a way
of like upward mobility. And it's like, you know, there's
no guessing of what's important and it's like, you know what you're
rewarded for. So you can kind of focus on the things that
the manager has deemed that are important and you know how to
(20:53):
do that. And so you strategically can
say it's all about this park and how to make it better and how to
take care of it. And all that kind of good stuff. And if you do
that, you get noticed, you get recognized, you get rewarded.
So that's kind of your growth piece that's not ideal to
where you get to be innovative and all that kind of stuff. But you know,
you know what you're rewarded for and you know what box to check. So there's
(21:16):
a benefit for that because you get results when people know what they're supposed to
do. Yeah. Did you ever work for a
park driven park first manager? Yeah, I think
my first manager was a park first manager.
Very passionate about the park. I started out working at a,
at a CCC park. So it was, you know, it was, you
(21:38):
felt immediately connected to this legacy of the
CCCS and the importance of. I was also at a
large park with a lot of employees and a sizable
amount of acreage and stuff. So it was all about the park. So the good
part about that was you felt this connection to that park and
this responsibility of take care of this grand old lady that
(22:00):
was, you know, one of the very first. Was one of the first parks in
South Carolina. And everything that we did was
for the park and was park driven. And I think it worked well
for the very diverse staff that we had there. Cause
everybody knew what the end goal was and kind of everyone started to
learn what their role was. And you could do as much as you wanted to
(22:22):
up and down of like be a strong contributor or
do what you needed to do to make it through the day kind of thing,
but it was all about the park. And so while you had that great experience
with that, I also had that great experience. And it was. The park
manager was know. Was a great person and a dear friend of mine
and loved working for, for him. But it, you
(22:45):
know, it wasn't that he was bad and didn't care about people, he did,
but it was all about that park. And that's why we're here. And it
was, you know, what's, what's interesting with all these is that somewhere
along the line these are all important. But you know, it wasn't until
later in the park movement that we started to recognize
that we're also here for the visitors and we're also here for the
(23:08):
people. And that stewardship now is
coupled with service. And so I think that's an
interesting component in all this of like where the visitors fit in and how you
kind of have to put them in that hierarchy too. But yeah, I've worked for
a park first manager. My very first job. It was very good for me.
Because it, it instilled in me the importance of the
(23:29):
stewardship of the special places that we were taking care of. So
I had good experience with park first, learned a lot of
detail stuff that, you know, I think it, you know, as a very young
park ranger, understood that a lot of it's in the details and
of taking care of places like this and those kind of things
that I'm not sure I would have learned in some of these other ones. So
(23:51):
I was very. I've appreciated my first experience with, with the
park first kind of manager. The second manager I worked for was
park first. And I learned a lot about
how to put a set of standards in place. And it
doesn't matter who you are, what's going on, this is the
standard, and if you didn't meet it, you didn't meet it. An example
(24:14):
standard for cleanliness. It doesn't matter what else happened that day.
This is what was supposed to happen. And if you got
called away, find a way to make it happen. And that I always
appreciated because you should have a standard
of cleanliness, a standard of service,
and I like that. And if you're putting the park first, it
(24:36):
doesn't matter what else happens. To some degree, you
meet those standards. And I've always appreciated that. I think
that's really important when you started talking about those standards and stuff. My first
park manager, a park first guy, he literally
had a small, one of those very small hand
pocket levels that he was meticulous about.
(24:58):
The signs always needed to be level. And I mean, it was
routinely for him two or three times a week to go check a sign if
somebody had hit it or something. So I mean, you always knew to be on
the lookout for those signs and stuff. So as silly as those little things
are, is like part first management. You take care of all the
details. And I think somewhere along the line you need to be influenced
(25:18):
by somebody who is park first, whether it's a manager or a
good maintenance supervisor or a ranger who's been there a long time,
because those are the things that go with you no matter where you go with
some of those standards and stuff. And you learn that from somebody who's really
passionate about being park first. Yeah, I'll give an example, Phil.
This park manager, her big thing was
(25:40):
cobwebs. Do not have any cobwebs on park
buildings. And remember, I was a financial analyst before
this, and I thought, it's a park, we're outside,
cobwebs happen. And she would always say,
no, it shows a Lack of detail, lack of caring.
If you're letting cobwebs, what else are you letting go in it? It says
(26:02):
something about our park. And she really helped me understand
that and I carried that with me the rest of my parks career.
Yeah, and it's those small details that when you put enough of those small
details in, that's when you come up with this, with an experience and
this park experience that makes it what it is. So it's, there's a
place for park first now. And it doesn't always have to be by the manager.
(26:24):
It could be by, you know, the maintenance supervisor or an assistant
manager or a good ranger or somebody, but it's a good component.
So. Yeah, that's right. Okay, that takes us to
the third style, policy driven. So this
I mentioned at the top, this one came from Phil, so I'm going to
contribute. I think Phil's going to carry this one, though. What I see here,
(26:47):
Phil is strict by the book. This is what
policy says. This is what we're going to do. What do you have to add
about this style? So I call it policy slash
process. And so I've worked for a process person who
was so focused on the process that sometimes
they forgot about all the other stuff that goes on. So it's, you know,
(27:09):
it's that they really were not as focused on
the park first or people first, but it was the process
of doing these things and you had to follow the process and
the policy and those kinds of things. And the best way
I know how to describe this is that they get hung up on one
plus two equals three. And when you're out there
(27:33):
on a Friday afternoon in July and stuff
is happening in a busy park and everything, sometimes
one plus two doesn't equal three. And it's supposed
to, but it doesn't work like that. And you know, on a Saturday
night when you got a big water leak in the campground and
got a sewer backed up and all this kind of stuff, we have to make
(27:54):
sure that we've got to do this, follow this policy and follow these
processes. When you're knee deep in,
you know, a ditch, fixing a water line or the
bathroom's overflowing or something. And sometimes you gotta respond.
And I'm not saying being a rule breaker, but I'm saying that sometimes one plus
two doesn't always equal three. You gotta adapt and adjust and
(28:16):
not be so overwhelmed and consumed by those kinds of things. And
the other thing that I always like to say is sometimes you gotta, you gotta
be able to you need a little bit of all four of them, obviously, when
we'll talk more about that. But you know, you need to be able to work
in the gray. And if you're so strict on policy, it really
stifles innovation, creativity, and people get
(28:38):
caught up in the what and the how and not in the why.
Well, Phil, I'm glad that you mentioned process
because that's what this was supposed to be. And I called it policy driven,
but it's process driven because policies, as an
example, don't tell you how and when to clean bathrooms. But
a process put in place by a park manager might tell you how and when
(29:01):
to clean bathrooms. Yeah, so this is process driven,
not policy driven. Although policy is perhaps pretty heavy in
it, but it is process driven. Park management, not policy
driven. So the benefits though, you know what to
expect, that's for sure, because you're just following the process
and there's a. Procedure and it's like, how do you do this? Well, you know
(29:22):
how to do this. You do one, two and get three. Yeah. And
quite often you can just go and find
the book or the document that tells you exactly how to do something in this
type of management style. It's usually well documented
and there's no, there's no gray area. Phil mentioned
that sometimes you have to operate in the gray area. Well, if you
(29:44):
like things black and white, you will like this. There is no gray area.
It's predictable because you do this things the
same way. You just follow the process. It can be
really easy to stay out of trouble because you just follow the process.
You're not going to get in trouble. Or like me sometimes, who didn't follow
the process all the time and kind of skirted on getting in trouble.
(30:06):
Yeah, like Ranger Phil. But here's the one thing that I
really like about this. Now I don't recommend
a process driven park management style, but here is what I
like about process driven. And that is
you do need processes, procedures,
guidelines in place to be your base
(30:28):
standard. And you have to have the autonomy
to deviate when it's needed. But if you don't have
processes, procedures and guidelines as your base standard,
it then becomes really hard to be a park driven or a park
first part or a people first park. So although I
don't like process driven as a management style, it
(30:51):
can really enhance how you run a park
if you do have really good processes.
Yeah, I think it's necessary. The process is necessary.
You just can't be caught up in it so much. So I'm Jumping ahead.
But I think one of the disadvantages of process is
like you gotta have it. But for people who focus solely
(31:14):
on the process and not the park and the people and these other aspects,
you tend to focus on what you can't do and not
on what you can do. Not on your why, you
know, and, and you don't really ask why not or
what if. And every now and then you need to have those questions like what
if, like what if we did this a little bit different or what if we.
(31:36):
So it stifles some of that, but it is. You certainly have to
have the standard operating procedures, management plans, those kind of
things that serve as a, as a guideline. But you can't
totally focus on it and forget about everything else because all you're worried about is
what the process is. Yeah. And I have work for a process person.
Well, I know we will get to that. The cautions I have,
(31:58):
staff don't usually have a voice or a say in what happens.
There's really not room for growth in process driven
management. It's really easy to get in trouble. Phil can tell
you that. And it's harder to find. You
don't ever get a better way to do things. You do things
because that's how we do things around here. There's not really room to
(32:21):
look for a better way to do things. So those are my cautions for
a process driven management style. Now, how to
succeed? I think know the processes. If you
know them well, you can then abide by them. That's
the easiest way to succeed in this style of management. And
you know what the box is? The four corners of
(32:43):
the box are processes. And you just work within the box
and you'll succeed. Yeah. And you don't, you know, if you follow all those processes
and stuff, you don't get in trouble and you don't create
problems with upper management and those kind of things. So. And they are
necessary. I don't want to be saying that process is not important. It
is extremely important. It's just you can't be consumed with the process
(33:06):
when you're out in a really dynamic place like a park
and all that goes on in a park. You got to be flexible. Yeah.
All right. Phil, you mentioned that you worked for
a process driven park manager. Tell us about that.
So I'm going to be honest with you. I never worked for a process
driven park manager, but I worked for some folks in our
(33:29):
central office. That was critical and in the decision making
and to make things happen. That was all about the Process.
And I know there's probably people that are on the park that get frustrated
with folks in the headquarters or in central office, because
typically central office headquarter folks are
more process driven. And it's because that's the world that
(33:51):
they live in. And so if you're a director or
if you're in the office somewhere, one of the things that I would
suggest is that while process is important, especially
when you're kind of like disconnected from the field, it's
really important to know that you can't let process
drive taking care of the park, taking care of staff,
(34:14):
taking care of the visitors, because it's not
designed that way. And processes are there to be a guideline. But one of the
things that always used to frustrate me in the field and when I was in
the office, when I was dealing with other parts of government, when they would
try to cookie cutter parks into an
HR policy or into some other kind of policy
(34:36):
that was for all of government, and they would say, you know, you work
40 hours a week, Monday through Friday, you know, you do this, you do
this. And then I would always raise my hand and say,
but I have people who don't work Monday through Friday, 8
to 5, you know, and it's, when do they work? I said, well, there
are employees that work. Somebody is working in State Parks
(34:58):
24 7, 365. And there's no policy
or process that, you know, is so
strict or so detailed that it doesn't take
into account some of the anomalies that we have in parks, you know, of
like, well, the process says you should have got three bids. Well, it was hard
to get three bids on Sunday, 4th of July at 10 o' clock, when I
(35:21):
needed, you know, the honey wagon to come out here and pump out a septic
tank. So you got to be flexible enough to know that
policy and processes are important and they're in place for a reason.
But we're so different in parks that you can't be so
strict that you can't kind of look at some ways. And I know
that there's rules and regs and laws and all that kind of good stuff, but
(35:42):
you got to be able to assist people who are working under this
circumstances that are not a cookie cutter policy or approach
to what most of government is dealing with.
Yeah. All right, all right, Phil, we're going to move into the last
style. This is personality driven park management.
Now, basically, this is a management style that,
(36:05):
as the name suggests, is just driven on the
personality of the manager. Phil, do you have anything to
add to that? So I'll say the good and bad. And you can kind of
wrap around that. The good and bad is that sometimes if you have a person
who's got a really great personality, it's a good place to work. Sometimes you have
a personality that's not so great. But also that personality
(36:26):
driven is like, doesn't always reflect
what's best for the park or the staff is there. When I first started
with park interpreters, one of the things that we tried to
do early on was park interpreters at
different sites kind of ran their programs based on their personality.
So you could have a park naturalist or park interpreter who was
(36:49):
really into snakes, and that's what they talked about at their park was
snakes. And so what we tried to change was it's not driven
by the personality. It's driven by, for lack of a better word,
it's driven by the park or the product. So if you're at
a place that has this wonderful, unique, natural
geologic formation at it, that's what you should be talking about.
(37:12):
That's what makes it unique. And not just snakes. And. Well, that's
a specific example. You know, you can broaden that to a
management style of this, you know, and park directors are notorious for
that. Over the years of like, you know, they had this one
thing that was their personality, and so that's what they focused on. And you
know, you look at somebody's time as a part director and there's a lot
(37:34):
of these kind of things that were done that was because what that part director
put a lot of emphasis on, and then a new part director comes in and
has and put a lot of emphasis on something else. And it's really based around
their personality. So you got to be careful with that because
most times it's not sustainable and its benefits are usually short
term. Yeah. All right, well, I think that was
(37:58):
a good explanation to bring in the interpreters, focusing
on a thing that that gives you a glimpse into what personality driven is
like. There are benefits, though. It can be really
fun. You can learn about how leadership and
charisma can work together. You can be
creative of all the styles. This probably will allow you to
(38:20):
be more creative because you'll get green lights to do your pet
projects. It can be a relaxed environment.
It's not always, but it can be. And you can
really feel like an insider here. If you've got a good relationship
with the personality driven park manager, you will feel
like you're really in on something special. I've got a long
(38:42):
list of cautions though. Phil, do you have anything to add on benefits before
I move from that? No, I think we hit the benefits pretty good. Yeah, we
did okay. I think this is the easiest
management style to go sour and this is
the easiest management style for you as a staff
member to fall out of favor. Because if you're not doing
(39:04):
something that's liked by the park manager, you're out of favor.
And that doesn't happen in process driven because you can follow
processes and always stay in favor. That's not always the
case here. There often are favorites on staff
for the park manager. And everybody feels that the environment
can feel moody because it's driven by
(39:26):
one personality. Priorities can often change.
It can be easy to get in the doghouse and tough to get out.
That's for you and other staff members. And even if it's another
staff member, a fellow worker who is in the doghouse, it
becomes uncomfortable for everybody. And Phil mentioned
earlier on ProcessDriven that you need to be able to
(39:49):
operate in gray areas. Quite often though, this style
operates only in the gray areas, which you can have too much of
that. And you can quite just as you can
often feel like an insider and that's wonderful. You can feel like an
outsider or an outcast. That happens in this type of park.
Phil, you have any comments or additional cautions? Well,
(40:12):
just a really silly one and dumbed down for people
like me sometimes if, if you're that employee
and this personality, this running the show is
not your kind of person. You don't have a chance and,
and you know, and you're miserable and there's no way
that you can find a way to make it. Cause this is just not my
(40:34):
kind of person. And that's like. And I've seen that happen. They
just, you know, it's just oil and water and there's, you know, I'm not going
to be able to survive in this, in this environment and you don't have
a chance. And what happens sometimes is a really good employee
leaves because I can't do this. And they see no way out
because it's not about process. It's not about park, it's
(40:56):
not about standards. It's. It's not about, it's about
this personality. And I just can't do that. So I'm not going to make it.
And that's. I think that's a really, really downside of this. Yeah, you got
to be real careful with that. You're right. That is probably.
That wraps in a Lot of the cautions I gave, but is probably even
more important that you can have a stellar
(41:19):
park ranger, but if they don't mix well with that
personality, there's no chance. Yeah, okay.
How. I've seen that happen. Yeah, that's right. It happens a lot.
And you usually don't find out because the park ranger will just
leave the agency. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's exactly right.
All right. How do you succeed in this style? Management?
(41:41):
You understand the priorities of the park
manager. You find what their goals are, and you help
them succeed in meeting those goals. You do
what you can to make the manager look good, because that's going to keep you
in favor. And this one I almost hesitate to say,
but you can do well playing to the manager's ego in this
(42:03):
style of park. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And this one,
Phil touched on this, and I thought about, is this
really something to put and how to succeed? But I think
leave as soon as possible. I just don't like this management style,
Phil. And I think you're better off going to another park. Yeah. You try to
find a way to get out. If you can't do it, if you can deal
(42:24):
with it, it's, you know, and even if you're struggling with
it, you got to figure out, so I either got to get out of here
and leave, or I gotta find a way to get outta here and
move to another park or something. And part of that goes back to, you know,
that old philosophy of it's all about
relationships. So it's all about relationships and
(42:46):
developing relationships. Because that guy who you don't wanna
work for, she or he may be your only ticket
outta here to go to another park. So it's about, you know, developing
that relationship so that you can find a way to get out there if you
can't do it. And if you can't, then, you know, it's. You can't be miserable
either, because it's not good for you or anybody. Anybody else.
(43:08):
So it's a difficult one unless you just find the right
person who's managing and. And you love them and love
working for that, and they're, you know, y' all hit it off and all that
kind of stuff. Then it can be a lot of fun until you go to
the next place and it's like, whoa. Yeah, well, Phil
is right there. I did say leave as soon as possible.
(43:28):
But if you hit it off with this person and you know how to play
the right game and. And do the role, you're
that is expected in this particular situation.
You can have an absolute great time working for this
style manager. Yeah. Phil, did you ever work for a personality driven
park manager? I did not. I know some
(43:50):
personality driven places and I've had those in my career
which were difficult. I think the person who's got the personality thinks that they're
doing it all right. You know, this is the, this way you're supposed to do
it and this. And that's part of the problem. And it's really hard to get
that across to somebody. So you got to figure out other ways to balance that
personality so that it's not so overwhelming. That's right.
(44:11):
Yeah. Well, I, I thought about leaving this part out, but
I'll tell you, I worked for a personality driven part
manager and for a year, it was an absolute blast.
And also it led to two of my least
favorite years in my working career. So you
can have it both ways. I mean, it can be an absolute time
(44:34):
of your life working for this style manager and it can be
something that you shouldn't tolerate for long till you have
to get out of there. Well, Phil, as a director
now. So you, if you don't know, Phil, worked his way up from
park ranger to state park director. So Phil, you've
worked with a lot of managers. You've had a lot of
(44:57):
managers under your supervision as director.
And we gave four management styles. But
what does it take to be a successful park manager?
I'm guessing based on your comments, it probably takes
some of all of this. I think it does. I think you need a
little bit of all four. And like everything else
(45:20):
in life is, it's a balance. And you know, it's like
when you talk about leadership, what is your style of leadership? And you know, you,
if you do the, the formal looking it up on, on Google
and in books, what are the styles of leadership? And you
see these five to ten leadership styles of,
you know, these are what leaders are. And then you ask people, so which
(45:42):
one of these leaders are you? And what is the best style of leadership?
And I think the same way with styles of park managers is
which one of these is best, which one of the is yours?
And so I think what you do is you try to take a little bit
of these four because I think they're all four very important.
And what happens is someone usually has more of one than they do the
(46:03):
other. I think the real balance is you take a piece of all
four and develop your own style of management
that has a lot of these because there's times when you need all of these.
And there's times when your personality, if you have a big
personality, there's time when that's really, really a great
tool for you to have. And it's a real asset. But
(46:25):
it's also a real asset to be able to pull out the book and say,
the process is we do this, this, this, and this. And the people
in the park, all those things are really important. And the visitor is really
important as well. So I think it's a hybrid. And the word that I
would sum up, what I'm saying is I really love this exercise
because it really gets you thinking about who you've worked for and people you've
(46:47):
seen from a distance and stuff, and what all I want to be. I think
the most important thing in all of these right here is you need to be
authentic and you need to be you. And if we
said, you know, people first is the way to do it. If you're not authentic,
it doesn't work. So you got to figure out who
you are and feel comfortable with you and who you are and how
(47:09):
you deliver. You know, what your duties are, whether it's a ranger or whether
it's your park manager, maintenance
supervisor, or if you're the director of parks. It's a hybrid,
but it's you. And being authentic is really, really important.
Oh, what a great way to sum it up, Phil, because I do think
you can climb up the ladder on this too.
(47:31):
That as you get more experience and figure out
how to bring who you are into your management style.
Because it's really easy to be process
based when you're new and you're figuring things out. We'll fall back
to the process and then maybe from there you build into
park first leadership with some heavy process, and
(47:54):
then you move on to people first. And Phil's right. That
personality, that charisma that comes from a
personality driven park, there are times that really
comes into play, especially if there's a crisis, an emergency,
something dealing with the public. You really do need that
charisma and that personality to help out. So, yeah, it's a
(48:17):
blend of all of these, and you have to be authentic. I knew
Ranger Phil would have the best summary for us. And Phil, we. It was
a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun going through this. Cause I
reminisce and you say, oh, yeah, I know I work for this guy, or I
know this person here, or, you know, this gal did this and.
But it's, you know, it's a hybrid and I love talking about this. Cause
(48:38):
I think it's all about growth, leadership, and keep
moving forward, no matter what position you're in. And being authentic
is so important. That's it. It's always trying to get better,
trying to get the park better, trying to get yourself better, trying to get your
team better, and being authentic, being yourself.
That's it. If you try to be people driven, but you're not
(49:01):
being you, it's not going to work out. Well, Phil, this was a
fantastic talk. I think it's a one that needs to
have. We need to have conversations like this in park so we can all get
better. And, Phil, this is perhaps the longest episode you and I have
ever done together. Oh, my goodness. That's right. You. I hope
people listen all the way to the end. I hope so. We talked as if
(49:23):
one of us was an interpreter. Yeah, well, I've been known not
to know when to be quiet, so. Well, I appreciate it, Phil.
It's always great having you back on the show. And hopefully we
get Phil back here soon. He's. He's such a busy man. We don't
always get access to him. But I do appreciate it when you have time
for us, Phil, thank you. Always love being here, Jody. And thank you
(49:45):
for listening to the Park Leader show.
Welcome to the Park Leader show where we are changing the landscape of
leadership in parks and conservation. I'm your host, Jody
Mayberry. And back by popular demand, the
semi regular guest co host, the
retired director of South Carolina State Parks,
a professor at Clemson University, Ranger Phil
(00:24):
Gaines. Phil, it's always good to have you back. It's always good
to be back. Jody. How are you doing, my friend? I'm doing good, Phil, but
I have to tell you, your title and introduction is getting so
long it's almost like an episode to itself. I
know that and it's, you know, and probably I'm just
flattered to be here. Just good old ranger Phil works for me. All right.
(00:46):
Ranger Phil told me even his students at
Clemson call him Ranger Phil. Yeah, I like that. All
right, Phil, I have an episode coming. Well, this
episode has been in the works for 10
years. I first had this idea 10 years ago. I
took notes on it and I never recorded it. But I think you
(01:08):
are the man to have this conversation with, Phil. It's a
deep one, it's a big one. And it's about the four
types of park managers. And so what I want to do is talk
about the four types of managers, talk about why that's a good
thing, the cautions and how to succeed with those managers.
So that's what we're going to do. And I'll even set you, set you up
(01:30):
here that when I originally took these notes I had only three
and Phil introduced me to a new type of park
manager that we're going to talk about that I personally
never worked with. So Phil, probably have the lead on that. And as
we go into it I will say there are four types of park
managers. People first, park first, process first
(01:53):
and personality first. And we will explain all of them. And
I'm going to start with best. So we're going to get the really good one
out of the way and then go down from there.
The first one being a people first, a
people driven park manager. Now Phil,
you jump in at any time on this, but from my experience,
(02:15):
people driven park manager, the staff, the
team comes even before park visitors and before
the park. This is a manager that emphasizes
relationships. The manager knows every staff member
personally and then helps provide opportunities
to allow that person to grow as an individual. Now I'm
(02:37):
going to talk about the benefits of a people driven park manager. People.
But do you have anything else to add about this style of management, Phil?
No, you know, it's, you said like we start with the best one first. So
that was Kind of almost idealistic and you know, kind of hard
to maintain, I guess is one way I would put it. But you
know, you want to work for somebody like that, right, who cares about their people
(02:59):
and puts in, has your back, you know, when something goes
wrong, either something goes wrong or something happens with a visitor. So
yeah, that's who you want to work for, for sure. Yeah, that's right.
You, you are lucky if you get a manager like this. The benefits are
that this whole concept of people driven park
management, it's based on the idea of you take care of the people,
(03:22):
they will take care of the park, take care of your people, they'll take care
of the park visitors. And I feel like this is, you're
more likely to see park rangers and staff, rest
of the staff express themselves as individuals
under this type of system. And there are cautions,
Phil, and I say it's idealistic, but there are cautions. But Phil,
(03:45):
what benefits do you see from a people driven
management style? Well, again, I think you build trust.
And with that building of trust, you also kind of build confidence
with that employee to where they're more engaged
in the process. I love the word engaged because that's one of the things
that you want your employees to be, is engaged in the process.
(04:08):
And to your point earlier, that's what enables
you as the leader, who's the people person. You engage
that person because they have trust in you and confidence in you and it's
their ability to make things happen and it
creates creativity and that engagement that
allows, you know, people on the front lines to
(04:30):
take responsibility, but to also make things happen and to address
issues. And to your point earlier as well is that
it allows them to take care of the park because you're taking
care of them. And that enables them, empowers them to
take care of the park and the people that you serve. So that's a
really good benefit and strong. You know, probably its best asset
(04:53):
is you've engaged and empowered people to do what the big mission
is and that's to take care of the park and the people. Yeah, that's good,
Phil. I, I like that. That could be one of the, the most
beneficial aspects of people driven park management
is you're taking care of them and you trust them to
go and do what needs to be done. And sure. And as that
(05:15):
person, who's it, who's watching that leader, you feel you have
more confidence to go and do that because you know that person's got
your back if something, if you mess up or something. Goes wrong, they got
your back. And that's where you engage people and you know,
empower people to, to do things on that entry level or
that that level that deals with part visitors and the part more probably than the
(05:38):
manager does. One Phil touched on exactly what
I was going to mention. Sure things will go wrong if you
allow people to go what go do what needs to be done.
They will make mistakes, they will have errors in judgment, they will mess
up. But a people driven park manager deals
with that situation individually. Phil,
(06:00):
I'm certain you've seen it in parks where someone will mess
up and then the park manager says, that's it, Phil did
this. So now nobody can do this anymore. Rather than just
deal with what Phil did, there's a new policy
in place. Well, you don't see that in this style of
management, right? Okay, so the cautions,
(06:22):
as much as Phil and I like this management style, here are the
cautions. It does take more work. If you are the
manager doing this style. It does take more work, especially
if two people are not getting along. Some people may
get jealous because if you are treating everyone individually,
then someone on the team may get jealous of the
(06:45):
attention or the opportunities they see other people getting and
they may say everything should be equal. And then I
feel like this management style can really be a
grind. If not everybody buys in, if there's
someone who just will not buy in, it really is a
grind on the manager because it steals the
(07:07):
attention that you want to give helping other people develop. It
steals all of that and puts it on the one person that hasn't bought in
or is causing trouble. What other cautions do you see in
this management style, Phil? Well, the short version is
it's hard. And you know, part of it being hard
is there on the front end, that park
(07:29):
manager has a lot of work to do to create that
atmosphere and create that feeling. And so one of it is you got to provide
good direction, good vision and be able. It's
not just say you have a great day, Jody, and go do whatever you want
to do to make this park wonderful. It's not Pollyannish like that. It's
like you've got to provide specific goals, direction,
(07:51):
you know, do all that stuff with what the mission
vision of the park is, those core values and all that kind of stuff. So
that's got to be ingrained from the very beginning that they understand that. And then
the other thing that's really hard about that, to be able to do that
park manager or leader needs to develop confidence
in Themselves, they're okay with
(08:12):
Ranger Jody going out and taking care of business
and empowering them and engaging them in the day to day work.
So it takes confidence in that because you're kind of putting
yourself in Ranger Jody's abilities.
And if he goes out and does something wrong, you know, you've created this
atmosphere that is, you know, we're going to fix that. And it's not
(08:34):
that y' all can't never do that again because Jody's screwed it
up. It's like, we got to fix that. So that
manager or that leader has to have a
pretty good degree of confidence in his abilities
and be okay with what he is because he's
really empowering other people to do some stuff. That's why there's a lot of homework
(08:56):
on the front end of like, what's the mission, vision, core
values? What do we want to do this season? What do
we want to do this year? You know, what are our long term desired results
to make this part the very best there is in our system. So
it's not really a disadvantage. It's just, it's hard.
So it, it's not just being, you know, everything's
(09:18):
rainbows and unicorns and y' all go out and have a good day. It's like,
you know, developing that so that you have the tools to go out
and make a difference. And with that comes preparation and
confidence. That's really good, Phil. Now
let's talk about how to succeed. If you are
at a park that has a park manager who operates in
(09:40):
this style, I think the keys are to respect
individuals and individuality. You can't
want everything to be equal for every park ranger.
If you have this type of park manager, it just doesn't work that
way. In this setting. You have to understand that the manager
has put a lot of trust in you. Because if the manager
(10:03):
doesn't put a lot of trust in everybody, this system doesn't
work. And if you want to succeed in this style
of management, you have to work as hard for the park visitor as the
manager is working for you. The whole concept of
this style management is built on that idea that the manager
will take care of you and you take care of the park visitor. Phil, what
(10:25):
else do you have to add about how to succeed with a people
driven park manager? I think it's, you have to be
authentic and you can't be phony and you can't just, you
know, because people will see through that and they'll see that this is not
authentic. This is, you know, this lip service or whatever you want to say. So
I think authenticity is really, really important in that
(10:47):
leaders concept. And then, you know, I'm not sure where this
category goes, but you said it earlier. Is it. You have to be
okay that sometimes you have to have the right people and you can do everything
right, and there's somebody on your staff that's like,
this is crazy. You know, I'm not doing this. This is silly or
whatever, or they don't buy into it, and they're just in that, you know,
(11:10):
making a day. You know, I'm. I'm here to, to do what I'm supposed to
do today and not be on that. So you can't get frustrated.
And that's. I think that's part of going back to being authentic. And hopefully
eventually even the ones who are not a right fit start understanding
that you're sincere and you're authentic in this approach, and they give it
their best shot. Yeah. Phil, during your
(11:32):
wonderful parks career, did you ever work for a people driven
park manager? This is terrible to say this. I don't know
if I have. I don't know if I ever worked for a people
driven park manager. I think I've. I've worked for some
hybrids, but not a full blown. I'm gonna take
care of my people regardless. And by the time when I was working
(11:54):
for park managers was a long time ago, and the world was a little bit
different. So this was kind of a radical approach for, you
know, a long time ago. But I think I worked probably for a
Howard hybrid. I always wanted to work for people first
manager, but I'm not sure I ever did. I hope they're not
listening, or if they are listening, they know that they didn't. But, yeah, I'm not
(12:16):
sure I ever did. But again, you know, you learn lessons from good leaders
and from bad leaders and from good mentors and from people
say, man, I'm not going to be like that. So. And
sometimes this is all hard stuff, you know, and especially these,
these ones that you really want to be like the people who do it. If
you've. So I'll ask you that question, Jodi, have you worked for people
(12:38):
first person? And if the answer is
yes, then my guess is now that you have
some wisdom along the journey is that you recognize that, man,
that was a pretty tall feat to do that because
there's a lot of pressure in the workplace not to be people first.
So if you find a people first manager, it's like, it's pretty
(13:02):
special and it's because it's so hard, you probably appreciate it even
more. So did you work for people first person? I was
lucky enough to have one manager that was. The manager
that hired me into parks was a people first.
And I learned a lot from, from him. Just
incredible. And there are some areas
(13:24):
that, as we go through the others, that some of there are
benefits to the others that we'll talk about that maybe aren't here. And so
perhaps a hybrid that Phil was talking about, maybe in a park
setting you need some of that. But yes, I was lucky
enough to work people first and it, it just shaped the rest
of my park career. I realized how lucky I was to get to work for
(13:46):
a people first manager. Yeah. Do you recognize now, like
looking back of like after you've seen other examples
and stuff of like how special that was or how unique that
was? I guess. Yeah, that's right. And I thought that's
how it would always be because that was my first park manager and I thought,
my goodness, they, they have wonderful leaders and managers here in
(14:08):
parks, which is true. On balance, it is true. There's wonderful leaders
in parks. I just thought it was always going to be people first and that's
not always the case. Yeah. Or as ranger Phil would lead us
to believe, that is perhaps never the case. It is a
unicorn when it happens. But that takes us to the next
style of park management and that is a park driven park
(14:31):
manager. Now, what is park first? If you operate park first, what
is that? Well, it's simply the park comes first.
That is our number one priority. We are here for the park. The park
has priority over staff. The park has priority
over visitors. Before I get to benefits,
Phil, what else do you have to add for park first management?
(14:53):
I think that's really, really close. The only thing I would add is
that it's, it has those resource stewardship
components to it and it recognizes the role
of, you know, I don't want to say caretaker, but I want to
say steward of like we are here because of this
park and the most important thing is is this park and
(15:16):
making sure that it's here and we take care of what is there and is
in benefits for future generations. So more than a
caretaker. But you know, it's like, you know, you're the steward of
that resource and the resource is the most important thing. Yeah, that's right.
That's a good addition. Okay. The benefits, you know what
to expect. I think most of the time when you work for a
(15:38):
manager like this, usually everyone is treated the Same.
The park operates extremely well. When
everyone buys in, it can be easy to understand what needs to
be done. I feel like it really encourages collaboration
across all areas of your park. In a big park, that is
really helpful that people come from the different areas to
(16:01):
this one wherever needs help, because it's park
first. That's what it needs. And I do feel perhaps
of all the park management styles we're going to talk about,
the park operates most effectively and
efficiently at the park as an entity. Now, we're.
Yes, Phil, and I said people driven is the best, but the
(16:23):
park probably operates the best under a park first
park manager. What do you have to add for benefits, Phil?
Well, I was going to say that the, you know, the thing about the park
first is there's no surprises. Everybody knows expectations,
and it is very efficient. So everybody knows no matter
where you're at in the pecking order or good employee, bad
(16:45):
employee, you know, the expectations. So. So one of the
benefits is there's really not a lot of gray as
far as management goes, because everybody knows what expectations are.
And, you know, there are real, almost black
and white standards of, you know, this park has to do this,
and that means this has to be done in this almost like list and everything.
(17:07):
So, you know, to reiterate what you said, it's. It's very
efficient, I think is a good answer. Yeah, good. Okay.
The cautions. In this park management style, there
can be less individuality, less room to test
ideas. The needs of the park always come
first, and park needs are relentless. It never
(17:29):
stops. So if the park needs come first and it never
stops, well, that, that can be a caution. This can
lack relationships among staff, and
it can be easy for someone on the staff to
feel like they're left behind. Phil, you have any comments on that or
additional cautions to add? Yeah, I think if
(17:53):
I would say the disadvantages of it is, and this is probably
from my perspective, as, you know, I'm so fascinated with leadership, and that kind of
stuff is almost limits growth of employees
because it's like, you know, there's not a lot of room for, you know, and
the other thing I did is it kind of sometimes limits innovation
so that growth and innovation is like, it's, you know, there's not a lot
(18:15):
of room for that because this is all about this. And there's
no room for development, I guess, in growth for the
individual because it's, you know, everybody knows what we got to do. It's all about
this park, and it's not really about growth. Of employees and that kind
of stuff. Although that happens and you do, but it's, it
kind of limits, you know, some of that innovation and growth
(18:38):
of maybe we could do this better or maybe we could do this different
or we never thought of that kind of thing. You know, you got
to really think about. That's why I love the hybrid approach to some of
these, because they all kind of have their place in stuff.
But if you're just thinking about the parking, you're not thinking about the growth of
the people who are serving that park, then you, you hadn't got the full potential
(19:01):
out of it. Yeah, that's good. All right. How do you succeed working
for a park driven park manager?
First, understand the priorities of the manager, which can be easy
to find out. Just ask and you're, you'll likely find out.
Understand the expectations that the manager has of
you. Once you understand those expectations,
(19:23):
it's pretty easy to perform in the way you need to perform.
And then when every park ranger wants to
have some say in what's going on and contribute
and I think in this setting, be able to explain
how your ideas benefit the park. Because that's this management
style is you are there for the park, you're steward of the park.
(19:46):
You're not likely going to get to try something because you want to
do it for your development or to build your resume.
You have to be able to explain how your idea benefits the park. And if
you can do that, understand priorities, expectations, and
be able to explain how what you want to do will benefit the park. I
think you can do well with this management style. What do you have, Phil,
(20:08):
for how to succeed? Well, I think you said it is
like, you know what boxes need to be checked so you know when you've been
successful because it's, you know, the goals and the outline of what
your duties and, and what your priorities are, is all about the park. So you,
you know what the expectations are and you can check
those boxes. I think you also understand
(20:31):
if you're strategic in this, you also understand what you're
rewarded for. So that kind of helps you in a way
of like upward mobility. And it's like, you know, there's
no guessing of what's important and it's like, you know what you're
rewarded for. So you can kind of focus on the things that
the manager has deemed that are important and you know how to
(20:53):
do that. And so you strategically can
say it's all about this park and how to make it better and how to
take care of it. And all that kind of good stuff. And if you do
that, you get noticed, you get recognized, you get rewarded.
So that's kind of your growth piece that's not ideal to
where you get to be innovative and all that kind of stuff. But you know,
you know what you're rewarded for and you know what box to check. So there's
(21:16):
a benefit for that because you get results when people know what they're supposed to
do. Yeah. Did you ever work for a
park driven park first manager? Yeah, I think
my first manager was a park first manager.
Very passionate about the park. I started out working at a,
at a CCC park. So it was, you know, it was, you
(21:38):
felt immediately connected to this legacy of the
CCCS and the importance of. I was also at a
large park with a lot of employees and a sizable
amount of acreage and stuff. So it was all about the park. So the good
part about that was you felt this connection to that park and
this responsibility of take care of this grand old lady that
(22:00):
was, you know, one of the very first. Was one of the first parks in
South Carolina. And everything that we did was
for the park and was park driven. And I think it worked well
for the very diverse staff that we had there. Cause
everybody knew what the end goal was and kind of everyone started to
learn what their role was. And you could do as much as you wanted to
(22:22):
up and down of like be a strong contributor or
do what you needed to do to make it through the day kind of thing,
but it was all about the park. And so while you had that great experience
with that, I also had that great experience. And it was. The park
manager was know. Was a great person and a dear friend of mine
and loved working for, for him. But it, you
(22:45):
know, it wasn't that he was bad and didn't care about people, he did,
but it was all about that park. And that's why we're here. And it
was, you know, what's, what's interesting with all these is that somewhere
along the line these are all important. But you know, it wasn't until
later in the park movement that we started to recognize
that we're also here for the visitors and we're also here for the
(23:08):
people. And that stewardship now is
coupled with service. And so I think that's an
interesting component in all this of like where the visitors fit in and how you
kind of have to put them in that hierarchy too. But yeah, I've worked for
a park first manager. My very first job. It was very good for me.
Because it, it instilled in me the importance of the
(23:29):
stewardship of the special places that we were taking care of. So
I had good experience with park first, learned a lot of
detail stuff that, you know, I think it, you know, as a very young
park ranger, understood that a lot of it's in the details and
of taking care of places like this and those kind of things
that I'm not sure I would have learned in some of these other ones. So
(23:51):
I was very. I've appreciated my first experience with, with the
park first kind of manager. The second manager I worked for was
park first. And I learned a lot about
how to put a set of standards in place. And it
doesn't matter who you are, what's going on, this is the
standard, and if you didn't meet it, you didn't meet it. An example
(24:14):
standard for cleanliness. It doesn't matter what else happened that day.
This is what was supposed to happen. And if you got
called away, find a way to make it happen. And that I always
appreciated because you should have a standard
of cleanliness, a standard of service,
and I like that. And if you're putting the park first, it
(24:36):
doesn't matter what else happens. To some degree, you
meet those standards. And I've always appreciated that. I think
that's really important when you started talking about those standards and stuff. My first
park manager, a park first guy, he literally
had a small, one of those very small hand
pocket levels that he was meticulous about.
(24:58):
The signs always needed to be level. And I mean, it was
routinely for him two or three times a week to go check a sign if
somebody had hit it or something. So I mean, you always knew to be on
the lookout for those signs and stuff. So as silly as those little things
are, is like part first management. You take care of all the
details. And I think somewhere along the line you need to be influenced
(25:18):
by somebody who is park first, whether it's a manager or a
good maintenance supervisor or a ranger who's been there a long time,
because those are the things that go with you no matter where you go with
some of those standards and stuff. And you learn that from somebody who's really
passionate about being park first. Yeah, I'll give an example, Phil.
This park manager, her big thing was
(25:40):
cobwebs. Do not have any cobwebs on park
buildings. And remember, I was a financial analyst before
this, and I thought, it's a park, we're outside,
cobwebs happen. And she would always say,
no, it shows a Lack of detail, lack of caring.
If you're letting cobwebs, what else are you letting go in it? It says
(26:02):
something about our park. And she really helped me understand
that and I carried that with me the rest of my parks career.
Yeah, and it's those small details that when you put enough of those small
details in, that's when you come up with this, with an experience and
this park experience that makes it what it is. So it's, there's a
place for park first now. And it doesn't always have to be by the manager.
(26:24):
It could be by, you know, the maintenance supervisor or an assistant
manager or a good ranger or somebody, but it's a good component.
So. Yeah, that's right. Okay, that takes us to
the third style, policy driven. So this
I mentioned at the top, this one came from Phil, so I'm going to
contribute. I think Phil's going to carry this one, though. What I see here,
(26:47):
Phil is strict by the book. This is what
policy says. This is what we're going to do. What do you have to add
about this style? So I call it policy slash
process. And so I've worked for a process person who
was so focused on the process that sometimes
they forgot about all the other stuff that goes on. So it's, you know,
(27:09):
it's that they really were not as focused on
the park first or people first, but it was the process
of doing these things and you had to follow the process and
the policy and those kinds of things. And the best way
I know how to describe this is that they get hung up on one
plus two equals three. And when you're out there
(27:33):
on a Friday afternoon in July and stuff
is happening in a busy park and everything, sometimes
one plus two doesn't equal three. And it's supposed
to, but it doesn't work like that. And you know, on a Saturday
night when you got a big water leak in the campground and
got a sewer backed up and all this kind of stuff, we have to make
(27:54):
sure that we've got to do this, follow this policy and follow these
processes. When you're knee deep in,
you know, a ditch, fixing a water line or the
bathroom's overflowing or something. And sometimes you gotta respond.
And I'm not saying being a rule breaker, but I'm saying that sometimes one plus
two doesn't always equal three. You gotta adapt and adjust and
(28:16):
not be so overwhelmed and consumed by those kinds of things. And
the other thing that I always like to say is sometimes you gotta, you gotta
be able to you need a little bit of all four of them, obviously, when
we'll talk more about that. But you know, you need to be able to work
in the gray. And if you're so strict on policy, it really
stifles innovation, creativity, and people get
(28:38):
caught up in the what and the how and not in the why.
Well, Phil, I'm glad that you mentioned process
because that's what this was supposed to be. And I called it policy driven,
but it's process driven because policies, as an
example, don't tell you how and when to clean bathrooms. But
a process put in place by a park manager might tell you how and when
(29:01):
to clean bathrooms. Yeah, so this is process driven,
not policy driven. Although policy is perhaps pretty heavy in
it, but it is process driven. Park management, not policy
driven. So the benefits though, you know what to
expect, that's for sure, because you're just following the process
and there's a. Procedure and it's like, how do you do this? Well, you know
(29:22):
how to do this. You do one, two and get three. Yeah. And
quite often you can just go and find
the book or the document that tells you exactly how to do something in this
type of management style. It's usually well documented
and there's no, there's no gray area. Phil mentioned
that sometimes you have to operate in the gray area. Well, if you
(29:44):
like things black and white, you will like this. There is no gray area.
It's predictable because you do this things the
same way. You just follow the process. It can be
really easy to stay out of trouble because you just follow the process.
You're not going to get in trouble. Or like me sometimes, who didn't follow
the process all the time and kind of skirted on getting in trouble.
(30:06):
Yeah, like Ranger Phil. But here's the one thing that I
really like about this. Now I don't recommend
a process driven park management style, but here is what I
like about process driven. And that is
you do need processes, procedures,
guidelines in place to be your base
(30:28):
standard. And you have to have the autonomy
to deviate when it's needed. But if you don't have
processes, procedures and guidelines as your base standard,
it then becomes really hard to be a park driven or a park
first part or a people first park. So although I
don't like process driven as a management style, it
(30:51):
can really enhance how you run a park
if you do have really good processes.
Yeah, I think it's necessary. The process is necessary.
You just can't be caught up in it so much. So I'm Jumping ahead.
But I think one of the disadvantages of process is
like you gotta have it. But for people who focus solely
(31:14):
on the process and not the park and the people and these other aspects,
you tend to focus on what you can't do and not
on what you can do. Not on your why, you
know, and, and you don't really ask why not or
what if. And every now and then you need to have those questions like what
if, like what if we did this a little bit different or what if we.
(31:36):
So it stifles some of that, but it is. You certainly have to
have the standard operating procedures, management plans, those kind of
things that serve as a, as a guideline. But you can't
totally focus on it and forget about everything else because all you're worried about is
what the process is. Yeah. And I have work for a process person.
Well, I know we will get to that. The cautions I have,
(31:58):
staff don't usually have a voice or a say in what happens.
There's really not room for growth in process driven
management. It's really easy to get in trouble. Phil can tell
you that. And it's harder to find. You
don't ever get a better way to do things. You do things
because that's how we do things around here. There's not really room to
(32:21):
look for a better way to do things. So those are my cautions for
a process driven management style. Now, how to
succeed? I think know the processes. If you
know them well, you can then abide by them. That's
the easiest way to succeed in this style of management. And
you know what the box is? The four corners of
(32:43):
the box are processes. And you just work within the box
and you'll succeed. Yeah. And you don't, you know, if you follow all those processes
and stuff, you don't get in trouble and you don't create
problems with upper management and those kind of things. So. And they are
necessary. I don't want to be saying that process is not important. It
is extremely important. It's just you can't be consumed with the process
(33:06):
when you're out in a really dynamic place like a park
and all that goes on in a park. You got to be flexible. Yeah.
All right. Phil, you mentioned that you worked for
a process driven park manager. Tell us about that.
So I'm going to be honest with you. I never worked for a process
driven park manager, but I worked for some folks in our
(33:29):
central office. That was critical and in the decision making
and to make things happen. That was all about the Process.
And I know there's probably people that are on the park that get frustrated
with folks in the headquarters or in central office, because
typically central office headquarter folks are
more process driven. And it's because that's the world that
(33:51):
they live in. And so if you're a director or
if you're in the office somewhere, one of the things that I would
suggest is that while process is important, especially
when you're kind of like disconnected from the field, it's
really important to know that you can't let process
drive taking care of the park, taking care of staff,
(34:14):
taking care of the visitors, because it's not
designed that way. And processes are there to be a guideline. But one of the
things that always used to frustrate me in the field and when I was in
the office, when I was dealing with other parts of government, when they would
try to cookie cutter parks into an
HR policy or into some other kind of policy
(34:36):
that was for all of government, and they would say, you know, you work
40 hours a week, Monday through Friday, you know, you do this, you do
this. And then I would always raise my hand and say,
but I have people who don't work Monday through Friday, 8
to 5, you know, and it's, when do they work? I said, well, there
are employees that work. Somebody is working in State Parks
(34:58):
24 7, 365. And there's no policy
or process that, you know, is so
strict or so detailed that it doesn't take
into account some of the anomalies that we have in parks, you know, of
like, well, the process says you should have got three bids. Well, it was hard
to get three bids on Sunday, 4th of July at 10 o' clock, when I
(35:21):
needed, you know, the honey wagon to come out here and pump out a septic
tank. So you got to be flexible enough to know that
policy and processes are important and they're in place for a reason.
But we're so different in parks that you can't be so
strict that you can't kind of look at some ways. And I know
that there's rules and regs and laws and all that kind of good stuff, but
(35:42):
you got to be able to assist people who are working under this
circumstances that are not a cookie cutter policy or approach
to what most of government is dealing with.
Yeah. All right, all right, Phil, we're going to move into the last
style. This is personality driven park management.
Now, basically, this is a management style that,
(36:05):
as the name suggests, is just driven on the
personality of the manager. Phil, do you have anything to
add to that? So I'll say the good and bad. And you can kind of
wrap around that. The good and bad is that sometimes if you have a person
who's got a really great personality, it's a good place to work. Sometimes you have
a personality that's not so great. But also that personality
(36:26):
driven is like, doesn't always reflect
what's best for the park or the staff is there. When I first started
with park interpreters, one of the things that we tried to
do early on was park interpreters at
different sites kind of ran their programs based on their personality.
So you could have a park naturalist or park interpreter who was
(36:49):
really into snakes, and that's what they talked about at their park was
snakes. And so what we tried to change was it's not driven
by the personality. It's driven by, for lack of a better word,
it's driven by the park or the product. So if you're at
a place that has this wonderful, unique, natural
geologic formation at it, that's what you should be talking about.
(37:12):
That's what makes it unique. And not just snakes. And. Well, that's
a specific example. You know, you can broaden that to a
management style of this, you know, and park directors are notorious for
that. Over the years of like, you know, they had this one
thing that was their personality, and so that's what they focused on. And you
know, you look at somebody's time as a part director and there's a lot
(37:34):
of these kind of things that were done that was because what that part director
put a lot of emphasis on, and then a new part director comes in and
has and put a lot of emphasis on something else. And it's really based around
their personality. So you got to be careful with that because
most times it's not sustainable and its benefits are usually short
term. Yeah. All right, well, I think that was
(37:58):
a good explanation to bring in the interpreters, focusing
on a thing that that gives you a glimpse into what personality driven is
like. There are benefits, though. It can be really
fun. You can learn about how leadership and
charisma can work together. You can be
creative of all the styles. This probably will allow you to
(38:20):
be more creative because you'll get green lights to do your pet
projects. It can be a relaxed environment.
It's not always, but it can be. And you can
really feel like an insider here. If you've got a good relationship
with the personality driven park manager, you will feel
like you're really in on something special. I've got a long
(38:42):
list of cautions though. Phil, do you have anything to add on benefits before
I move from that? No, I think we hit the benefits pretty good. Yeah, we
did okay. I think this is the easiest
management style to go sour and this is
the easiest management style for you as a staff
member to fall out of favor. Because if you're not doing
(39:04):
something that's liked by the park manager, you're out of favor.
And that doesn't happen in process driven because you can follow
processes and always stay in favor. That's not always the
case here. There often are favorites on staff
for the park manager. And everybody feels that the environment
can feel moody because it's driven by
(39:26):
one personality. Priorities can often change.
It can be easy to get in the doghouse and tough to get out.
That's for you and other staff members. And even if it's another
staff member, a fellow worker who is in the doghouse, it
becomes uncomfortable for everybody. And Phil mentioned
earlier on ProcessDriven that you need to be able to
(39:49):
operate in gray areas. Quite often though, this style
operates only in the gray areas, which you can have too much of
that. And you can quite just as you can
often feel like an insider and that's wonderful. You can feel like an
outsider or an outcast. That happens in this type of park.
Phil, you have any comments or additional cautions? Well,
(40:12):
just a really silly one and dumbed down for people
like me sometimes if, if you're that employee
and this personality, this running the show is
not your kind of person. You don't have a chance and,
and you know, and you're miserable and there's no way
that you can find a way to make it. Cause this is just not my
(40:34):
kind of person. And that's like. And I've seen that happen. They
just, you know, it's just oil and water and there's, you know, I'm not going
to be able to survive in this, in this environment and you don't have
a chance. And what happens sometimes is a really good employee
leaves because I can't do this. And they see no way out
because it's not about process. It's not about park, it's
(40:56):
not about standards. It's. It's not about, it's about
this personality. And I just can't do that. So I'm not going to make it.
And that's. I think that's a really, really downside of this. Yeah, you got
to be real careful with that. You're right. That is probably.
That wraps in a Lot of the cautions I gave, but is probably even
more important that you can have a stellar
(41:19):
park ranger, but if they don't mix well with that
personality, there's no chance. Yeah, okay.
How. I've seen that happen. Yeah, that's right. It happens a lot.
And you usually don't find out because the park ranger will just
leave the agency. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's exactly right.
All right. How do you succeed in this style? Management?
(41:41):
You understand the priorities of the park
manager. You find what their goals are, and you help
them succeed in meeting those goals. You do
what you can to make the manager look good, because that's going to keep you
in favor. And this one I almost hesitate to say,
but you can do well playing to the manager's ego in this
(42:03):
style of park. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And this one,
Phil touched on this, and I thought about, is this
really something to put and how to succeed? But I think
leave as soon as possible. I just don't like this management style,
Phil. And I think you're better off going to another park. Yeah. You try to
find a way to get out. If you can't do it, if you can deal
(42:24):
with it, it's, you know, and even if you're struggling with
it, you got to figure out, so I either got to get out of here
and leave, or I gotta find a way to get outta here and
move to another park or something. And part of that goes back to, you know,
that old philosophy of it's all about
relationships. So it's all about relationships and
(42:46):
developing relationships. Because that guy who you don't wanna
work for, she or he may be your only ticket
outta here to go to another park. So it's about, you know, developing
that relationship so that you can find a way to get out there if you
can't do it. And if you can't, then, you know, it's. You can't be miserable
either, because it's not good for you or anybody. Anybody else.
(43:08):
So it's a difficult one unless you just find the right
person who's managing and. And you love them and love
working for that, and they're, you know, y' all hit it off and all that
kind of stuff. Then it can be a lot of fun until you go to
the next place and it's like, whoa. Yeah, well, Phil
is right there. I did say leave as soon as possible.
(43:28):
But if you hit it off with this person and you know how to play
the right game and. And do the role, you're
that is expected in this particular situation.
You can have an absolute great time working for this
style manager. Yeah. Phil, did you ever work for a personality driven
park manager? I did not. I know some
(43:50):
personality driven places and I've had those in my career
which were difficult. I think the person who's got the personality thinks that they're
doing it all right. You know, this is the, this way you're supposed to do
it and this. And that's part of the problem. And it's really hard to get
that across to somebody. So you got to figure out other ways to balance that
personality so that it's not so overwhelming. That's right.
(44:11):
Yeah. Well, I, I thought about leaving this part out, but
I'll tell you, I worked for a personality driven part
manager and for a year, it was an absolute blast.
And also it led to two of my least
favorite years in my working career. So you
can have it both ways. I mean, it can be an absolute time
(44:34):
of your life working for this style manager and it can be
something that you shouldn't tolerate for long till you have
to get out of there. Well, Phil, as a director
now. So you, if you don't know, Phil, worked his way up from
park ranger to state park director. So Phil, you've
worked with a lot of managers. You've had a lot of
(44:57):
managers under your supervision as director.
And we gave four management styles. But
what does it take to be a successful park manager?
I'm guessing based on your comments, it probably takes
some of all of this. I think it does. I think you need a
little bit of all four. And like everything else
(45:20):
in life is, it's a balance. And you know, it's like
when you talk about leadership, what is your style of leadership? And you know, you,
if you do the, the formal looking it up on, on Google
and in books, what are the styles of leadership? And you
see these five to ten leadership styles of,
you know, these are what leaders are. And then you ask people, so which
(45:42):
one of these leaders are you? And what is the best style of leadership?
And I think the same way with styles of park managers is
which one of these is best, which one of the is yours?
And so I think what you do is you try to take a little bit
of these four because I think they're all four very important.
And what happens is someone usually has more of one than they do the
(46:03):
other. I think the real balance is you take a piece of all
four and develop your own style of management
that has a lot of these because there's times when you need all of these.
And there's times when your personality, if you have a big
personality, there's time when that's really, really a great
tool for you to have. And it's a real asset. But
(46:25):
it's also a real asset to be able to pull out the book and say,
the process is we do this, this, this, and this. And the people
in the park, all those things are really important. And the visitor is really
important as well. So I think it's a hybrid. And the word that I
would sum up, what I'm saying is I really love this exercise
because it really gets you thinking about who you've worked for and people you've
(46:47):
seen from a distance and stuff, and what all I want to be. I think
the most important thing in all of these right here is you need to be
authentic and you need to be you. And if we
said, you know, people first is the way to do it. If you're not authentic,
it doesn't work. So you got to figure out who
you are and feel comfortable with you and who you are and how
(47:09):
you deliver. You know, what your duties are, whether it's a ranger or whether
it's your park manager, maintenance
supervisor, or if you're the director of parks. It's a hybrid,
but it's you. And being authentic is really, really important.
Oh, what a great way to sum it up, Phil, because I do think
you can climb up the ladder on this too.
(47:31):
That as you get more experience and figure out
how to bring who you are into your management style.
Because it's really easy to be process
based when you're new and you're figuring things out. We'll fall back
to the process and then maybe from there you build into
park first leadership with some heavy process, and
(47:54):
then you move on to people first. And Phil's right. That
personality, that charisma that comes from a
personality driven park, there are times that really
comes into play, especially if there's a crisis, an emergency,
something dealing with the public. You really do need that
charisma and that personality to help out. So, yeah, it's a
(48:17):
blend of all of these, and you have to be authentic. I knew
Ranger Phil would have the best summary for us. And Phil, we. It was
a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun going through this. Cause I
reminisce and you say, oh, yeah, I know I work for this guy, or I
know this person here, or, you know, this gal did this and.
But it's, you know, it's a hybrid and I love talking about this. Cause
(48:38):
I think it's all about growth, leadership, and keep
moving forward, no matter what position you're in. And being authentic
is so important. That's it. It's always trying to get better,
trying to get the park better, trying to get yourself better, trying to get your
team better, and being authentic, being yourself.
That's it. If you try to be people driven, but you're not
(49:01):
being you, it's not going to work out. Well, Phil, this was a
fantastic talk. I think it's a one that needs to
have. We need to have conversations like this in park so we can all get
better. And, Phil, this is perhaps the longest episode you and I have
ever done together. Oh, my goodness. That's right. You. I hope
people listen all the way to the end. I hope so. We talked as if
(49:23):
one of us was an interpreter. Yeah, well, I've been known not
to know when to be quiet, so. Well, I appreciate it, Phil.
It's always great having you back on the show. And hopefully we
get Phil back here soon. He's. He's such a busy man. We don't
always get access to him. But I do appreciate it when you have time
for us, Phil, thank you. Always love being here, Jody. And thank you
(49:45):
for listening to the Park Leader show.
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