August 26, 2025 • 36 mins
"Sometimes steady leadership, or keeping the park on course, is the most important thing we can offer."
Notable Moments
[00:01:00] Jon’s work with the Parks Institute at UC Berkeley
[00:02:20] International consulting and training park managers abroad
[00:04:15] Encouragement for park leaders during uncertain times
[00:08:30] Lessons from history and why tough times lead to renewal
[00:13:28] The balance between risk-taking and steady leadership
[00:17:40] Revisiting the idea of a standalone National Park Service
[00:21:54] Jon’s vision for the future of national parks
[00:28:53] Reforming concessions and improving visitor experience
[00:30:39] Lessons from international park systems
[00:33:27] The role of parks in healing and uniting a divided nation
Former National Park Service Director Jon Jarvis joins Jody Maberry to share insights on the challenges and future of national parks. They discuss lessons from history, the importance of steady leadership, and how partnerships, Indigenous relationships, and global perspectives shape the path ahead. Jon offers encouragement to current park leaders navigating uncertain times while painting a vision of resilience and renewal for the future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Park Leader show, where we are changing the landscape of
leadership and parks and conservation. I'm your host,
Jody Mayberry, and joining us is a
longtime friend of the Park Leader show, even though it's been
quite a while since he's been with us, the retired director of the
National Park Service, John Jarvis. Hi, John. It's great to have you
(00:23):
back. Hi, Jody. It's always great to be on your show.
So, yeah, let's. Let's talk. Oh, my goodness, John, we've got a lot
to talk about, don't we? We do. There's
never a boring moment these days in our international parks
and public lands. Yeah. Well, let's get an update. I know
there's other topics, but let's get an update because it's been a while since you've
(00:46):
been on the show. What projects have you been working on over the last few
years? Yeah, so when I retired from the Park
Service, I launched a Parks Institute at
the University of California, Berkeley, which, as you probably know, has
a storied history with the national parks. Everything from
Stephen Mather and Horace Albright, both being Berkeley grads. And
(01:08):
then fast forward to George Melendez Wright,
who launched the first surveys of the national
parks along with Grinnell, and then
on to Starker Leopold, the son of Aldo Leopold, as
professor at Berkeley. And so there was a lot of fantastic
history about the use of science coming out of Berkeley. So
(01:30):
we came up with this idea of launching a new Parks Institute that would focus
on bringing the very best science to the management of our.
Our national parks and public lands. And so I did that for a couple of
years as the executive director. Then I stepped over
to become the chairman of the board and continued that
work. We went through the COVID period when everything sort of locked
(01:52):
down for a while, and then we hired a new executive director, continued
that work. And then most recently, we've been
merging the Parks Institute into a new Stone
center for Environmental Stewardship. A lot of correlated
activities there. So Berkeley will continue on with a focus on
parks and on large landscapes and conservation. So
(02:14):
it's really great. I've been doing some international consulting. I've been
helping other countries with their park system. I did some work
in China and Chile and in Georgia
as well, and in Thailand with their. Their park
system. Help train park managers in Thailand. And then
sneaking off to go fly fishing whenever I get a chance and
(02:37):
playing with my four grandkids. Oh, it just sounds like
a good life, especially that last part. Fly fishing and grandkids.
Yeah, that's it that keeps me young? Yeah.
Well, it sounds like you've kept yourself very
busy and helping train the next generation of park leaders.
And I see your name pop up a lot because you've been
(03:00):
writing a lot of articles. So it's good to see you still
active and still fighting for parks and
conservation. It's. I'm glad you chose the route that
you did rather than just only go fly fishing.
Well, I think, you know, I probably prefer to go off and just go
fly fishing, but, you know, sometimes that the times
(03:22):
demand. And so I've, I spend a fair amount of time just on the
phone with colleagues, people that are still working in
the National Park Service to give them some reassurance about
the future and, and let them, you know, talk about,
you know, their concerns and working with some of the
organizations that are out there. So, yeah, it's probably drives
(03:44):
my wife a little bit crazy that I'm sitting up here in the office and
jabbering away on the phone to somebody. But, you know, it's. I
think I've still got a few things to offer having been around a long
time. And I like to remind people
that, you know, I started my career under Carter
and, you know, worked under, you know, both of the, the Bush
(04:06):
presidencies and Bill Clinton and, and
Barack Obama. And so I've, I've seen a lot, and maybe I can always
offer a little bit of encouragement and perspective. Well, that's, It's.
Yeah, you're right. You've seen a lot. You've been involved in a lot. And
that is something that really helps during tough times to
have somebody that's seen a lot, been through a lot. Because if
(04:29):
you have no context of experience,
sometimes things that aren't as bad as they seem
seem absolutely terrible, and the reverse is also true.
You may think something's not a big deal, but it is really bad,
and you just don't know it because you don't have the experience to know it.
And it is obvious the National Park Service is going
(04:50):
through some tough times. And I have had a
guideline for the last 11 years that I've done
this show to not talk politics because. And
here's why, John, is my thought is a park
leader is in the parks leading, and we have no say
or control over what the politicians do or don't do. And
(05:13):
our job is to carry out our role the best we can.
And therefore, I'm not going to get into the political side.
What we're going through does involve politicians and
politics, and I Don't want to get into that. But what I want to
get into is we still have great leaders in
the National Park Service that are now faced with perhaps
(05:35):
some challenges that weren't there when you were director.
They perhaps don't have a superintendent, they don't have clear
leadership, they don't have guidance, and that is tough to operate
on. And, and I wanted to talk to you just about
some encouragement just to understand how to operate in
that environment. So I'm sure you've at some
(05:57):
point been at a park that at least temporarily didn't have a
superintendent or leadership was in transition. What did you
learn during that time that can help the park rangers that are
in a park that don't have a superintendent or are in leadership
transition? Yeah, I mean, I have great faith
in the employees of the National Park Service
(06:21):
and in their many, many partners. And that could be gateway
community partners that can be friends groups, advocacy organizations,
their volunteers and the like. That is a core mass
of capacity that are deeply vested
in the value proposition of our national parks. And I have a
great deal of faith that that, that will persist
(06:43):
in tough times. And certainly if you look back historically,
I mean, the, you know, During World War II, the parks were
basically closed or being used for R and R, like
Yosemite Valley was being used for soldiers that
came back with what they would call in those days being shell shocked.
I love their famous complaint to the superintendent was that there was no place
(07:06):
to drink and so the superintendent opened a bar
for them. They also found it a little depressing because, you know, sun
doesn't shine into the valley all day because you're down in
that bottom of the, those beautiful walls. But in
coming out of World War II, of course, that was. The parks were really defunded.
And you know, Bernard devoto, the famous author and
(07:28):
historian, wrote a really famous article about let's close
the national parks because they had been so neglected. And that triggered
essentially a renewal. It stimulated the
launch of Mission 66 under Connie Worth and
a complete restoration of the parks and a reinvestment and
a support of Congress through appropriations and development. And
(07:51):
today there's a lot of that still exists in the park
system. So I think as we think about the future,
one is that those folks that are still in the service that
have not taken an early out or retirement or
fork in the road or just made a career decision to move on,
we're going to need you. The service is going to need you with all of
(08:13):
your skill sets and abilities to step up into
leadership. Roles and to bring a
sense of mission and a sense of pride in the American
story, that the American most beautiful and wonderful
landscapes that the public are going to need. I mean, you want to look for
inspiration. Look to Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War.
(08:35):
Setting aside the Mayor Posagros of Yosemite, let's
just say he was a busy guy at the time and had other things,
but he thought that, you know, the future of our nation would
need a place like that for all of its restorative
values. And I think that when we think about the park system,
with its natural and cultural resources that are in the stewardship
(08:58):
of the National Park Service, we're going to need those places to
renew our spirit, renew our patriotism, to renew our
relationship with the natural world and with each other. And I think
that it's important in these times that you stay focused on
those things. And, you know, it's in this
window. You may not get to do all the things that you have been doing.
(09:21):
That doesn't mean you won't get to do them in the future. You know, I
think that we did a lot of stuff during the centennial. You know, we had
the call to action. We were. We were celebrating, and
we. We asked. I mean, one of the things that I just loved about the
call to action in the centennial was we didn't tell the parks what to do.
We said, tell us what you're doing within these categories. You
(09:42):
know, tell us how you're expanding the American experience, the
untold stories. How are you engaging young people? How are you
restoring the natural environment? Just tell us about it, and then we'll celebrate
that. And I remember recently talking to a ranger who said,
we miss that. We miss the opportunity to tell people about
what wonderful things we're doing. Well, you might have to wait
(10:04):
a little bit before you get to tell the public about those things. Unless
perhaps they come to the park and you get to tell them then. But you'll
get a turn. It'll come. Yeah. And the National Park Service,
and John just mentioned some of it, has survived
really tough times, has survived really good times, and
it's still here. And I think no matter what happens, the National
(10:25):
Park Service is still going to be here, and it will
need leaders like you. I remember, John, one of the
other times you were on the show, you highlighted how
National Park Service has service in the title
for a reason. And we cannot carry out that part of the
mission without our park rangers in the parks
(10:48):
doing what only park rangers can do. Yeah, absolutely. I
mean, it is it's core to the mission, you know, through all
the training we do in the Park Service for new
employees, through fundamentals understanding that we are
a service to the public, we are a service
to the Constitution, and there are
(11:10):
changes in political leadership occasionally had to remind
employees, we are not an advocacy organization. We are not a
nonprofit. We are not an environmental group. We are a federal
agency. We work for the executive
in the executive branch of the three branches of the federal government,
and therefore, we are subject to their
(11:33):
priorities. That doesn't take away from our statutory
mission, our regulatory framework, or our
history. But there can be, you know, shifts for
sure, re emphasis, and, you know, there's
directives that you might disagree with.
Signs can be restored, signs can be changed,
(11:55):
changed back stories can be restored.
History, you know, and authenticity is going to still
be there and can be applied when the time is right.
John, before I move on to the next question I have for
you, I was just thinking as we were talking there, the very
first time we ever recorded an episode together
(12:17):
was so unique, you may remember, we were in West Virginia,
and we recorded directly under that. Sitting under a bear.
Yeah. This huge grizzly bear. I can't say
I've ever recorded with anyone else while confronted with a grizzly bear.
And it was stuffed, you know. Yes, there is that, but. But it's
all. You're a storyteller, you know, Sometimes you can change a story
(12:40):
by just leaving out one word. Right, right. It was
good, though. It was a great setting. Better than this one.
Yeah. This time John and I are on Zoom. He's in his
office, I'm in mine. It's not quite the same. Okay.
One of the other things I was wondering about the National Park
Service is, I've been told, going through a
(13:02):
phase where many leaders feel like it's
risky to be a leader or risky to stand up,
that perhaps now is the time you just try to
get through it and do something later. So
what advice do you have for someone that maybe isn't
stepping up and is just getting by in
(13:25):
a time when it feels risky to be a leader? Well, I
think both types of leadership are needed that,
you know, running headlong into a brick wall isn't
necessarily a good model of leadership or
going down in a ball of fire, you know,
isn't necessarily what the service needs at this
(13:48):
moment. Sometimes steady, keeping the
ship on course and steady is the right
choice. And we need folks that are doing that and can say,
okay, I'm just going to stay in my park boundary. I'm Going to
support my employees who are struggling for
lack of staff or budgetary reasons,
(14:10):
overwhelmed by visitors. You know, the
reporting of scientists cleaning restrooms. I've
cleaned my share of restrooms in my career. I've,
you know, had to do all kinds of duties that
weren't necessarily in my job description, but I did it
to get through, to keep the park on course. And so
(14:32):
you think about what the real core mission is.
To preserve these places unimpaired for the enjoyment of future
generations. So that's an easy one. Figure out what that
means and do that in this time period
and recognize that people will appreciate it. They may not see
it. A lot of times it's behind the scenes. And,
(14:53):
you know, there's no question that if you speak out
that and speak up in opposition to the current
leadership administration, there will probably be retribution.
We've seen that already. And so that's an individual
risk people have to decide on because, you know, it has
implications to your career, to your. Your family, to your, you
(15:16):
know, your kids in school, all those kinds of things. And you
don't necessarily want to risk that this day and age by
taking a stand, a public stand, in contrast
to a position of the administration that this administration is
far less tolerant of that than we've seen in the past. So I
think my advice is to stay focused on the
(15:39):
core mission of the service and on protecting and
supporting your employees that are probably all overworked and
overwhelmed. And I also want to say this. I don't want to say
this is just applies to the Park Service. I want to bring in our.
Our sister agencies, the Forest Service, the BLM and the Fish and Wildlife Service.
They're all also struggling under the current situation
(16:02):
and having to sort of figure out what the core values are and
try to maintain those at the same time. And I think
leaning on your partners, soliciting and helping your
volunteers step up, look for, you know,
ways to stretch every dollar that you've got to sort
of. And not, you know, not giving in to,
(16:24):
you know, just ending things that are incredibly important to the
long term. We've got to think about what condition the
parks will be in when they are inherited by the next
team that comes in. And I think you want to, as a leader, you want
to make sure you're passing that park on to the next leader
or leaders in at least as decent shape as
(16:47):
when you got it. Yeah, that's good words. And one
of the past episodes that you were on, you. You talked about
the National Park Service, how you thought it would be,
and even wrote a book about how the National Park Service would benefit by
becoming a standalone agency. It's been
a few years since that book came out. Give us an update
(17:10):
about that idea, and then I will even tell you
right immediately after that, I'll ask you about what you think the
future of the National Park Service is. And I say that because
if your two answers wrap together, well, that's a good
segue into it. So this idea of the National Park
Service becoming a standalone agency outside of the
(17:32):
Department of the Interior. You wrote a book, it got good
traction, very solid book. Any updates on
that idea? Not really. I mean,
spent a little time on the Hill after the book came out to sort of
meet with certain members of Congress to talk about that,
pass the book along to certain key members of both the Senate, the
(17:54):
House. And obviously, any type of action like that would
require legislative action. It's not something that can be
done administratively. But unfortunately, you know, at the
moment, Congress is at best a little bit dysfunctional
in terms of its ability to focus on something like this.
My hope is that at some point that, you know, a
(18:17):
member of the Senate or the House would pick this up and hold
a series of hearings to investigate
what it would mean. I think, if anything. And again, I know you don't
like to get political, but I would suggest that the. Over the
last six months that the Department of the Interior has
demonstrated poor stewardship of the national
(18:39):
parks, one that would indicate that perhaps the future
of the national parks would be better secured by it being
outside of the Department of the Interior. I think what has
surprised us all is how vulnerable this institution,
which has got enormous public support, has been
to dramatic changes. You know, the
(19:02):
Department of Interior's budget proposal was to slash a
third of the park services budget, cut it from 3 billion to 2
billion. And you can't do that without having a serious impact
on the stewardship of the national parks. So I would suggest
that an independent agency, an independent National Park
Service, could propose and testify to Congress
(19:24):
its needs for appropriation separate from the Department
of the Interior, where it has to compete with all the other
activities of Interior. Park Service and the director
need to have the freedom to go before Congress and
state clearly its needs for the future.
And rather than having to just sort of do whatever the
(19:47):
Department of Interior decides that it needs. Are
you hopeful that that change can happen?
I'm hopeful. You know, but hope's not a strategy.
We like to say. Yeah, I think when the
timing is right, we need to have a Strategy, a political
strategy, a constituent and public support strategy
(20:10):
for the future. And that have begun to sort of think about that,
about. You know, I mentioned earlier that post World War
II and the sort of clarion call for
renewal resulted in Mission 66. And
the directors of the Park Service essentially led an effort that
was for the most part an infrastructure investment.
(20:33):
Well, we sort of need a new mission 66. We need something that's
targeted one of the outer years, that is an effort towards
renewal and restoration and
reinvigoration of the mission. And I'm not saying
we need to go back and recreate exactly what was
there and how the Park Service was organized and operated.
(20:55):
I think it's likely going to be different. And I think
that could be positive, that could be an opportunity. But we need to
think about it from its, not only its function and
operation, but also its resilience. How can it be built
in a manner that it is more resistant to sort of
whipsawed changes that we're experiencing now.
(21:17):
Well, then let's take that right into
what you see as the future of the National Park Service. So
we're going through a time where it's
probable, it's likely we will have a 8 out
of 12 year stretch with no director. There's
100 give or take, national park units without a
(21:39):
superintendent. Morale's down, hiring's down,
we're faced with all these issues, there's
restructuring. With all of that going on, what do
you see the National Park Service looking like when it
bounces back? What's interesting in those points you made, you know,
the team that came into the Department of Interior, the Doge
(22:00):
team under Musk, their approach to this was let's
break it and then see what happens when you rebuild it. Which
is kind of the, you know, the, the tech model, you know, they go
into an industry like the taxi industry
and they just break it, you know, and they create a whole new
infrastructure. There probably was some room for reform,
(22:23):
but you know, you don't want to break is the stewardship
responsibilities of this for the benefit of the people.
That's still core. And that these
parklands and the resources and values that they
represent, whether they are cultural and the American story,
and particularly the untold stories of America, as well as these
(22:45):
natural resource parks, need to be viewed in
context of the larger landscapes. So one
vision of the future is we begin to think of parks as
components of a larger landscape, a larger
ecosystem. And you can look to Yellowstone and the
Grand Tetons and its surrounding national forest
(23:07):
lands and its working landscapes and ranches and others
as a much more integrated ecosystem.
Bob Kider, the University of Utah professor, has
just written a book about Yellowstone, a very good book about this
complex landscape. And there are drivers out there like
migrating species like elk and bison and bears
(23:30):
and others that move in and out of these porous systems. So I
think one is that the future of the national parks is to look at them
in context of much, much larger landscapes. And we need
managers and leaders both inside and out that
are willing to get outside of their boundaries and work directly
with communities and with private landowners and
(23:53):
come up with new ideas that really work
around sustainability, sustainable jobs,
sustainable economies, sustainable ecosystems
and resilience in that ecosystem. What are the key factors? And you
could look across the big landscapes. Everglades, Rocky
Mountain, Glacier, Yellowstone, Yosemite,
(24:16):
Sequoia, Kings Canyon, Death Valley, Mojave.
All of these are big natural areas tucked within
much, much larger landscapes. So I think the future of the park system is going
to be less islands of biodiversity
as opposed to large components of larger landscapes. And that's
going to require a different model, a different set of skills
(24:39):
or the leaders. The second future I think is a
much, much more reliance on partnerships to
accomplish our goals. Partnerships with the private
sector, partnerships with private nonprofit
organizations, 513Cs and others, and a better
integration of non federal dollars and federal
(25:00):
dollars. And there's always been, this is down the weeds, but you
can't mix the two. You cannot, you really can't mix up federal
dollars and non federal dollars. And so
there's the contracting people and the budget. People go crazy when you
try. And so we have had, literally had to take projects and say, well, you,
you build, you do the pavement and I'll do the building. And
(25:22):
we got to get over that and start figuring out how to do things together
as well in a much more integrated economies. I think
that, you know what, one of the things that's always been on my
wish list is a complete reform of the
private sector concessions in the national parks. That's a billion dollar
industry of which most of the profit go to corporate.
(25:44):
There's really very little reinvestment into the
parks themselves as a result of a very strange
set of laws and regulations. There's an opportunity to
completely reform that will take some
appetite on the part of the Congress, but an opportunity to look at
a different model of how private sector services, which are
(26:06):
appropriate, provided by the private sector, but that there ought to be a much,
much better return on that investment to the national
park system than we're getting now. And then I
think again, we have a portfolio of
parklands and park stories that attempt to
tell the America's story. And there's still some
(26:28):
gaps in that system and we need to be looking for
those. And not just that we get them, but
they are the way the story is told and who tells that
story is going to be really, really important. And then one
more and then I'll shut up. And that is that something that
Secretary Holland and Director Sams both emphasized is
(26:50):
this much greater relationship with indigenous people, with the
traditionally associated Native Americans and their
homelands, and much, much more
meaningful co stewardship than we've seen in the past.
And I think that that's a direction that the Park Service
absolutely needs to go in. And so that might also change
(27:12):
a lot of the ways we do things into the future. All of those
are great. I had to write them all down as you were talking, so I
didn't lose any. And these are really good. And, and when you were talking about
private sector concessions not too long ago,
Bob Weiss, the retired director of Walt
Disney Imagineering, was, was on the show and he even
(27:35):
pointed out. And you didn't say this, but I think it could
wrap into your third point. He pointed out that
it is too obvious in the national parks
when you're dealing with a Park Service employee and experience and when
you're dealing with a concession. And he talked about how
from an experience standpoint, he would like to see
(27:58):
them closer together, that the National Park
Service needs to create a better experience. That way, if you
have private concessions, the park visitor doesn't know, doesn't
care, shouldn't know, shouldn't care. They should have the same experience.
And I see that wrapping into your third point about a reform in
private sector concessions. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think Bob's point is
(28:20):
spot on. You know, we. The Park Service has little or
no involvement in the hiring training of the
concession employees. Often they are kids
from other parts of the world that are come here for a, you know,
park like experience or they're retirees or,
or whatever. But they're often people that really care about the parks. And often they.
(28:43):
Some of them really know the parks really, really well, but there's no
incentive for them to necessarily interact with the public
when they're handing them their hamburger. So, yeah,
I think that there's opportunity there as well. Well, that was a great
look at the future of national parks. And while
you've been doing some great work around the world
(29:05):
and it's Encouraging to hear what other countries are
doing and that they care enough about what they're doing to bring UN
to help either train people or
consult on the park system they're building or is there.
I know we invented national parks. We're the
best in the world at it. I always tell myself that we're the best in
(29:28):
the world at it. Is there something else you've seen
throughout the world in parks where you say, now
we met, that may be America's best idea. We may be the best
in the world, but what they've done right there, that would
benefit us to pick up on that. Yeah. I like to say that,
you know, we, The United States, invented the national
(29:50):
park idea, but went around the world and came back. It
was different because to be blood about it, we
imposed our national park western models on
lands that the indigenous people had been forcibly removed
from. So that made it easy, frankly. Well,
now when you're. You take that model and you try to apply it
(30:12):
in China or India or nations
in Africa, there are people still living there. The only place that
we sort of attempted this model was in Alaska,
where the indigenous Alaskan natives were
incorporated into the Alaska Lands Act. And their
rights of subsistence and travel, hunting,
(30:34):
fishing, all of those things were built in. We didn't do that in the lower
48. So one is that we can look to other
countries that have figured this out better than we have. And
I have one. One of my favorite stories is individual at
Harvard that I got to know was telling me about a park in India, a
national park that has tigers. And there is a village
(30:57):
on the edge of the park, and they're villagers that go in
and out of the park. And the tigers
occasionally kill some people. And he said the
village can tolerate two or three, four maybe people
being killed per year by tigers. That's okay. You know,
that's. He's not great. I mean, he's obviously not good. But they don't get upset
(31:19):
too much because that's just sort of the cost of doing business. But if it
gets up to, you know, six or seven, and that's crosses the line.
And I was thinking about that in terms of the U.S. you know, and, you
know, you're living in Cody and outside of Yellowstone, and to
accept, oh, yeah, we're gonna have three or four people from Cody getting eaten by
grizzly bears every year, that'd be okay. That's. You know, there are things that
(31:40):
other countries can get away with that We're. We're not gonna go there,
obviously, as well. But, you know, there
are experimentation going on with parks all over the
world. Now. There's over 200 nations that have national
parks systems, and they are looking for
models of finance, they're looking for models of stewardship, of
(32:02):
community engagement, of planning, you know, and how to
zone, how to do development, road construction,
all those kinds of things. So there's lots of lessons. And I think that,
you know, when, in my experience, when we would send teams
out from the National Park Service to work and help
in other national parks, they come back with a
(32:24):
renewed perspective often about the work that they're
doing both here and in assisting other nations. It's
inspiring to see incredible people working really, really hard in
these other countries to protect these places, often with far,
far less resources or even political support than
we have here in the country. Well, John, if you remember, you and
(32:47):
I were together at the World Ranger Congress in 2016
in Estes Park, Colorado, and what a great experience
that was to see park rangers from all over the world
come together. Now, they didn't experience each other's parks, but
the exchange of ideas and stories was just
fantastic. And what a great opportunity from
(33:10):
someone from Yellowstone as an example to hear what's happening in
Australia or Nepal or just. That was so neat.
And I see that there really is value
in having those conversations, seeing the photos, hearing the
stories of what's going on around the world. Yeah, it is.
And I've always been a big believer in the soft
(33:32):
diplomacy of parks to work with countries where we might
have other economic or political issues, but
working together on parks, on conservation, helping them
save their most important places and to tell their
stories, that's huge. And it's a place
where we can find common ground. And I think that's also the case
(33:55):
here in the United States, frankly, that there's so many things that divide
us. But I still believe that the national parks
are places that we can come together as a nation. It may be one
of the last places that we can come together as the nation and
treat each other with respect and look to the future. That,
you know, these. You know, as Teddy Roosevelt said this, save
(34:17):
the Grand Canyon for your children's children's children. And,
you know, Ken Burns said that the national parks for
this is the Declaration of Independence applied to the ground
that we stand on, the south rim of the Grand Canyon as
co equals in regardless of our politics or
our economics or our race or ethnicity or
(34:40):
sexual preference or whatever, we are there to enjoy
and be a part of these places and be inspired by it. And
I hope that we can continue to do that and use our national
parks to perhaps heal the nation. I'm currently reading
Battle cry for freedom. McPherson spoke about the Civil War.
And, you know, certainly our nation was pretty divided back then
(35:04):
and somehow healed from that. There are still obviously
residuals, but I still think that there's opportunity to use our national
parks as a moment of healing and of learning to
work with our fellow Americans. That is a
fantastic message to wrap on. And just
know John is rooting for you. Keep showing up in
(35:26):
parks, doing the great work. I'm rooting for you. Our parks
are one of the most important things that we've got. So
we're so glad you're out there doing the work. And John, I'm so glad you
were willing to come back now that we've had such a great
conversation. It made me think, my goodness, I should have reached out to John much
sooner. It's always wonderful to talk with you anytime,
(35:48):
Jody. So let's keep in touch. Always great to get on your show and.
And have a chance to talk about something positive.
That's right. That's right. Well, thank you so much and thank you for listening to
the Park Leader Show.
Welcome to the Park Leader show, where we are changing the landscape of
leadership and parks and conservation. I'm your host,
Jody Mayberry, and joining us is a
longtime friend of the Park Leader show, even though it's been
quite a while since he's been with us, the retired director of the
National Park Service, John Jarvis. Hi, John. It's great to have you
(00:23):
back. Hi, Jody. It's always great to be on your show.
So, yeah, let's. Let's talk. Oh, my goodness, John, we've got a lot
to talk about, don't we? We do. There's
never a boring moment these days in our international parks
and public lands. Yeah. Well, let's get an update. I know
there's other topics, but let's get an update because it's been a while since you've
(00:46):
been on the show. What projects have you been working on over the last few
years? Yeah, so when I retired from the Park
Service, I launched a Parks Institute at
the University of California, Berkeley, which, as you probably know, has
a storied history with the national parks. Everything from
Stephen Mather and Horace Albright, both being Berkeley grads. And
(01:08):
then fast forward to George Melendez Wright,
who launched the first surveys of the national
parks along with Grinnell, and then
on to Starker Leopold, the son of Aldo Leopold, as
professor at Berkeley. And so there was a lot of fantastic
history about the use of science coming out of Berkeley. So
(01:30):
we came up with this idea of launching a new Parks Institute that would focus
on bringing the very best science to the management of our.
Our national parks and public lands. And so I did that for a couple of
years as the executive director. Then I stepped over
to become the chairman of the board and continued that
work. We went through the COVID period when everything sort of locked
(01:52):
down for a while, and then we hired a new executive director, continued
that work. And then most recently, we've been
merging the Parks Institute into a new Stone
center for Environmental Stewardship. A lot of correlated
activities there. So Berkeley will continue on with a focus on
parks and on large landscapes and conservation. So
(02:14):
it's really great. I've been doing some international consulting. I've been
helping other countries with their park system. I did some work
in China and Chile and in Georgia
as well, and in Thailand with their. Their park
system. Help train park managers in Thailand. And then
sneaking off to go fly fishing whenever I get a chance and
(02:37):
playing with my four grandkids. Oh, it just sounds like
a good life, especially that last part. Fly fishing and grandkids.
Yeah, that's it that keeps me young? Yeah.
Well, it sounds like you've kept yourself very
busy and helping train the next generation of park leaders.
And I see your name pop up a lot because you've been
(03:00):
writing a lot of articles. So it's good to see you still
active and still fighting for parks and
conservation. It's. I'm glad you chose the route that
you did rather than just only go fly fishing.
Well, I think, you know, I probably prefer to go off and just go
fly fishing, but, you know, sometimes that the times
(03:22):
demand. And so I've, I spend a fair amount of time just on the
phone with colleagues, people that are still working in
the National Park Service to give them some reassurance about
the future and, and let them, you know, talk about,
you know, their concerns and working with some of the
organizations that are out there. So, yeah, it's probably drives
(03:44):
my wife a little bit crazy that I'm sitting up here in the office and
jabbering away on the phone to somebody. But, you know, it's. I
think I've still got a few things to offer having been around a long
time. And I like to remind people
that, you know, I started my career under Carter
and, you know, worked under, you know, both of the, the Bush
(04:06):
presidencies and Bill Clinton and, and
Barack Obama. And so I've, I've seen a lot, and maybe I can always
offer a little bit of encouragement and perspective. Well, that's, It's.
Yeah, you're right. You've seen a lot. You've been involved in a lot. And
that is something that really helps during tough times to
have somebody that's seen a lot, been through a lot. Because if
(04:29):
you have no context of experience,
sometimes things that aren't as bad as they seem
seem absolutely terrible, and the reverse is also true.
You may think something's not a big deal, but it is really bad,
and you just don't know it because you don't have the experience to know it.
And it is obvious the National Park Service is going
(04:50):
through some tough times. And I have had a
guideline for the last 11 years that I've done
this show to not talk politics because. And
here's why, John, is my thought is a park
leader is in the parks leading, and we have no say
or control over what the politicians do or don't do. And
(05:13):
our job is to carry out our role the best we can.
And therefore, I'm not going to get into the political side.
What we're going through does involve politicians and
politics, and I Don't want to get into that. But what I want to
get into is we still have great leaders in
the National Park Service that are now faced with perhaps
(05:35):
some challenges that weren't there when you were director.
They perhaps don't have a superintendent, they don't have clear
leadership, they don't have guidance, and that is tough to operate
on. And, and I wanted to talk to you just about
some encouragement just to understand how to operate in
that environment. So I'm sure you've at some
(05:57):
point been at a park that at least temporarily didn't have a
superintendent or leadership was in transition. What did you
learn during that time that can help the park rangers that are
in a park that don't have a superintendent or are in leadership
transition? Yeah, I mean, I have great faith
in the employees of the National Park Service
(06:21):
and in their many, many partners. And that could be gateway
community partners that can be friends groups, advocacy organizations,
their volunteers and the like. That is a core mass
of capacity that are deeply vested
in the value proposition of our national parks. And I have a
great deal of faith that that, that will persist
(06:43):
in tough times. And certainly if you look back historically,
I mean, the, you know, During World War II, the parks were
basically closed or being used for R and R, like
Yosemite Valley was being used for soldiers that
came back with what they would call in those days being shell shocked.
I love their famous complaint to the superintendent was that there was no place
(07:06):
to drink and so the superintendent opened a bar
for them. They also found it a little depressing because, you know, sun
doesn't shine into the valley all day because you're down in
that bottom of the, those beautiful walls. But in
coming out of World War II, of course, that was. The parks were really defunded.
And you know, Bernard devoto, the famous author and
(07:28):
historian, wrote a really famous article about let's close
the national parks because they had been so neglected. And that triggered
essentially a renewal. It stimulated the
launch of Mission 66 under Connie Worth and
a complete restoration of the parks and a reinvestment and
a support of Congress through appropriations and development. And
(07:51):
today there's a lot of that still exists in the park
system. So I think as we think about the future,
one is that those folks that are still in the service that
have not taken an early out or retirement or
fork in the road or just made a career decision to move on,
we're going to need you. The service is going to need you with all of
(08:13):
your skill sets and abilities to step up into
leadership. Roles and to bring a
sense of mission and a sense of pride in the American
story, that the American most beautiful and wonderful
landscapes that the public are going to need. I mean, you want to look for
inspiration. Look to Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War.
(08:35):
Setting aside the Mayor Posagros of Yosemite, let's
just say he was a busy guy at the time and had other things,
but he thought that, you know, the future of our nation would
need a place like that for all of its restorative
values. And I think that when we think about the park system,
with its natural and cultural resources that are in the stewardship
(08:58):
of the National Park Service, we're going to need those places to
renew our spirit, renew our patriotism, to renew our
relationship with the natural world and with each other. And I think
that it's important in these times that you stay focused on
those things. And, you know, it's in this
window. You may not get to do all the things that you have been doing.
(09:21):
That doesn't mean you won't get to do them in the future. You know, I
think that we did a lot of stuff during the centennial. You know, we had
the call to action. We were. We were celebrating, and
we. We asked. I mean, one of the things that I just loved about the
call to action in the centennial was we didn't tell the parks what to do.
We said, tell us what you're doing within these categories. You
(09:42):
know, tell us how you're expanding the American experience, the
untold stories. How are you engaging young people? How are you
restoring the natural environment? Just tell us about it, and then we'll celebrate
that. And I remember recently talking to a ranger who said,
we miss that. We miss the opportunity to tell people about
what wonderful things we're doing. Well, you might have to wait
(10:04):
a little bit before you get to tell the public about those things. Unless
perhaps they come to the park and you get to tell them then. But you'll
get a turn. It'll come. Yeah. And the National Park Service,
and John just mentioned some of it, has survived
really tough times, has survived really good times, and
it's still here. And I think no matter what happens, the National
(10:25):
Park Service is still going to be here, and it will
need leaders like you. I remember, John, one of the
other times you were on the show, you highlighted how
National Park Service has service in the title
for a reason. And we cannot carry out that part of the
mission without our park rangers in the parks
(10:48):
doing what only park rangers can do. Yeah, absolutely. I
mean, it is it's core to the mission, you know, through all
the training we do in the Park Service for new
employees, through fundamentals understanding that we are
a service to the public, we are a service
to the Constitution, and there are
(11:10):
changes in political leadership occasionally had to remind
employees, we are not an advocacy organization. We are not a
nonprofit. We are not an environmental group. We are a federal
agency. We work for the executive
in the executive branch of the three branches of the federal government,
and therefore, we are subject to their
(11:33):
priorities. That doesn't take away from our statutory
mission, our regulatory framework, or our
history. But there can be, you know, shifts for
sure, re emphasis, and, you know, there's
directives that you might disagree with.
Signs can be restored, signs can be changed,
(11:55):
changed back stories can be restored.
History, you know, and authenticity is going to still
be there and can be applied when the time is right.
John, before I move on to the next question I have for
you, I was just thinking as we were talking there, the very
first time we ever recorded an episode together
(12:17):
was so unique, you may remember, we were in West Virginia,
and we recorded directly under that. Sitting under a bear.
Yeah. This huge grizzly bear. I can't say
I've ever recorded with anyone else while confronted with a grizzly bear.
And it was stuffed, you know. Yes, there is that, but. But it's
all. You're a storyteller, you know, Sometimes you can change a story
(12:40):
by just leaving out one word. Right, right. It was
good, though. It was a great setting. Better than this one.
Yeah. This time John and I are on Zoom. He's in his
office, I'm in mine. It's not quite the same. Okay.
One of the other things I was wondering about the National Park
Service is, I've been told, going through a
(13:02):
phase where many leaders feel like it's
risky to be a leader or risky to stand up,
that perhaps now is the time you just try to
get through it and do something later. So
what advice do you have for someone that maybe isn't
stepping up and is just getting by in
(13:25):
a time when it feels risky to be a leader? Well, I
think both types of leadership are needed that,
you know, running headlong into a brick wall isn't
necessarily a good model of leadership or
going down in a ball of fire, you know,
isn't necessarily what the service needs at this
(13:48):
moment. Sometimes steady, keeping the
ship on course and steady is the right
choice. And we need folks that are doing that and can say,
okay, I'm just going to stay in my park boundary. I'm Going to
support my employees who are struggling for
lack of staff or budgetary reasons,
(14:10):
overwhelmed by visitors. You know, the
reporting of scientists cleaning restrooms. I've
cleaned my share of restrooms in my career. I've,
you know, had to do all kinds of duties that
weren't necessarily in my job description, but I did it
to get through, to keep the park on course. And so
(14:32):
you think about what the real core mission is.
To preserve these places unimpaired for the enjoyment of future
generations. So that's an easy one. Figure out what that
means and do that in this time period
and recognize that people will appreciate it. They may not see
it. A lot of times it's behind the scenes. And,
(14:53):
you know, there's no question that if you speak out
that and speak up in opposition to the current
leadership administration, there will probably be retribution.
We've seen that already. And so that's an individual
risk people have to decide on because, you know, it has
implications to your career, to your. Your family, to your, you
(15:16):
know, your kids in school, all those kinds of things. And you
don't necessarily want to risk that this day and age by
taking a stand, a public stand, in contrast
to a position of the administration that this administration is
far less tolerant of that than we've seen in the past. So I
think my advice is to stay focused on the
(15:39):
core mission of the service and on protecting and
supporting your employees that are probably all overworked and
overwhelmed. And I also want to say this. I don't want to say
this is just applies to the Park Service. I want to bring in our.
Our sister agencies, the Forest Service, the BLM and the Fish and Wildlife Service.
They're all also struggling under the current situation
(16:02):
and having to sort of figure out what the core values are and
try to maintain those at the same time. And I think
leaning on your partners, soliciting and helping your
volunteers step up, look for, you know,
ways to stretch every dollar that you've got to sort
of. And not, you know, not giving in to,
(16:24):
you know, just ending things that are incredibly important to the
long term. We've got to think about what condition the
parks will be in when they are inherited by the next
team that comes in. And I think you want to, as a leader, you want
to make sure you're passing that park on to the next leader
or leaders in at least as decent shape as
(16:47):
when you got it. Yeah, that's good words. And one
of the past episodes that you were on, you. You talked about
the National Park Service, how you thought it would be,
and even wrote a book about how the National Park Service would benefit by
becoming a standalone agency. It's been
a few years since that book came out. Give us an update
(17:10):
about that idea, and then I will even tell you
right immediately after that, I'll ask you about what you think the
future of the National Park Service is. And I say that because
if your two answers wrap together, well, that's a good
segue into it. So this idea of the National Park
Service becoming a standalone agency outside of the
(17:32):
Department of the Interior. You wrote a book, it got good
traction, very solid book. Any updates on
that idea? Not really. I mean,
spent a little time on the Hill after the book came out to sort of
meet with certain members of Congress to talk about that,
pass the book along to certain key members of both the Senate, the
(17:54):
House. And obviously, any type of action like that would
require legislative action. It's not something that can be
done administratively. But unfortunately, you know, at the
moment, Congress is at best a little bit dysfunctional
in terms of its ability to focus on something like this.
My hope is that at some point that, you know, a
(18:17):
member of the Senate or the House would pick this up and hold
a series of hearings to investigate
what it would mean. I think, if anything. And again, I know you don't
like to get political, but I would suggest that the. Over the
last six months that the Department of the Interior has
demonstrated poor stewardship of the national
(18:39):
parks, one that would indicate that perhaps the future
of the national parks would be better secured by it being
outside of the Department of the Interior. I think what has
surprised us all is how vulnerable this institution,
which has got enormous public support, has been
to dramatic changes. You know, the
(19:02):
Department of Interior's budget proposal was to slash a
third of the park services budget, cut it from 3 billion to 2
billion. And you can't do that without having a serious impact
on the stewardship of the national parks. So I would suggest
that an independent agency, an independent National Park
Service, could propose and testify to Congress
(19:24):
its needs for appropriation separate from the Department
of the Interior, where it has to compete with all the other
activities of Interior. Park Service and the director
need to have the freedom to go before Congress and
state clearly its needs for the future.
And rather than having to just sort of do whatever the
(19:47):
Department of Interior decides that it needs. Are
you hopeful that that change can happen?
I'm hopeful. You know, but hope's not a strategy.
We like to say. Yeah, I think when the
timing is right, we need to have a Strategy, a political
strategy, a constituent and public support strategy
(20:10):
for the future. And that have begun to sort of think about that,
about. You know, I mentioned earlier that post World War
II and the sort of clarion call for
renewal resulted in Mission 66. And
the directors of the Park Service essentially led an effort that
was for the most part an infrastructure investment.
(20:33):
Well, we sort of need a new mission 66. We need something that's
targeted one of the outer years, that is an effort towards
renewal and restoration and
reinvigoration of the mission. And I'm not saying
we need to go back and recreate exactly what was
there and how the Park Service was organized and operated.
(20:55):
I think it's likely going to be different. And I think
that could be positive, that could be an opportunity. But we need to
think about it from its, not only its function and
operation, but also its resilience. How can it be built
in a manner that it is more resistant to sort of
whipsawed changes that we're experiencing now.
(21:17):
Well, then let's take that right into
what you see as the future of the National Park Service. So
we're going through a time where it's
probable, it's likely we will have a 8 out
of 12 year stretch with no director. There's
100 give or take, national park units without a
(21:39):
superintendent. Morale's down, hiring's down,
we're faced with all these issues, there's
restructuring. With all of that going on, what do
you see the National Park Service looking like when it
bounces back? What's interesting in those points you made, you know,
the team that came into the Department of Interior, the Doge
(22:00):
team under Musk, their approach to this was let's
break it and then see what happens when you rebuild it. Which
is kind of the, you know, the, the tech model, you know, they go
into an industry like the taxi industry
and they just break it, you know, and they create a whole new
infrastructure. There probably was some room for reform,
(22:23):
but you know, you don't want to break is the stewardship
responsibilities of this for the benefit of the people.
That's still core. And that these
parklands and the resources and values that they
represent, whether they are cultural and the American story,
and particularly the untold stories of America, as well as these
(22:45):
natural resource parks, need to be viewed in
context of the larger landscapes. So one
vision of the future is we begin to think of parks as
components of a larger landscape, a larger
ecosystem. And you can look to Yellowstone and the
Grand Tetons and its surrounding national forest
(23:07):
lands and its working landscapes and ranches and others
as a much more integrated ecosystem.
Bob Kider, the University of Utah professor, has
just written a book about Yellowstone, a very good book about this
complex landscape. And there are drivers out there like
migrating species like elk and bison and bears
(23:30):
and others that move in and out of these porous systems. So I
think one is that the future of the national parks is to look at them
in context of much, much larger landscapes. And we need
managers and leaders both inside and out that
are willing to get outside of their boundaries and work directly
with communities and with private landowners and
(23:53):
come up with new ideas that really work
around sustainability, sustainable jobs,
sustainable economies, sustainable ecosystems
and resilience in that ecosystem. What are the key factors? And you
could look across the big landscapes. Everglades, Rocky
Mountain, Glacier, Yellowstone, Yosemite,
(24:16):
Sequoia, Kings Canyon, Death Valley, Mojave.
All of these are big natural areas tucked within
much, much larger landscapes. So I think the future of the park system is going
to be less islands of biodiversity
as opposed to large components of larger landscapes. And that's
going to require a different model, a different set of skills
(24:39):
or the leaders. The second future I think is a
much, much more reliance on partnerships to
accomplish our goals. Partnerships with the private
sector, partnerships with private nonprofit
organizations, 513Cs and others, and a better
integration of non federal dollars and federal
(25:00):
dollars. And there's always been, this is down the weeds, but you
can't mix the two. You cannot, you really can't mix up federal
dollars and non federal dollars. And so
there's the contracting people and the budget. People go crazy when you
try. And so we have had, literally had to take projects and say, well, you,
you build, you do the pavement and I'll do the building. And
(25:22):
we got to get over that and start figuring out how to do things together
as well in a much more integrated economies. I think
that, you know what, one of the things that's always been on my
wish list is a complete reform of the
private sector concessions in the national parks. That's a billion dollar
industry of which most of the profit go to corporate.
(25:44):
There's really very little reinvestment into the
parks themselves as a result of a very strange
set of laws and regulations. There's an opportunity to
completely reform that will take some
appetite on the part of the Congress, but an opportunity to look at
a different model of how private sector services, which are
(26:06):
appropriate, provided by the private sector, but that there ought to be a much,
much better return on that investment to the national
park system than we're getting now. And then I
think again, we have a portfolio of
parklands and park stories that attempt to
tell the America's story. And there's still some
(26:28):
gaps in that system and we need to be looking for
those. And not just that we get them, but
they are the way the story is told and who tells that
story is going to be really, really important. And then one
more and then I'll shut up. And that is that something that
Secretary Holland and Director Sams both emphasized is
(26:50):
this much greater relationship with indigenous people, with the
traditionally associated Native Americans and their
homelands, and much, much more
meaningful co stewardship than we've seen in the past.
And I think that that's a direction that the Park Service
absolutely needs to go in. And so that might also change
(27:12):
a lot of the ways we do things into the future. All of those
are great. I had to write them all down as you were talking, so I
didn't lose any. And these are really good. And, and when you were talking about
private sector concessions not too long ago,
Bob Weiss, the retired director of Walt
Disney Imagineering, was, was on the show and he even
(27:35):
pointed out. And you didn't say this, but I think it could
wrap into your third point. He pointed out that
it is too obvious in the national parks
when you're dealing with a Park Service employee and experience and when
you're dealing with a concession. And he talked about how
from an experience standpoint, he would like to see
(27:58):
them closer together, that the National Park
Service needs to create a better experience. That way, if you
have private concessions, the park visitor doesn't know, doesn't
care, shouldn't know, shouldn't care. They should have the same experience.
And I see that wrapping into your third point about a reform in
private sector concessions. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think Bob's point is
(28:20):
spot on. You know, we. The Park Service has little or
no involvement in the hiring training of the
concession employees. Often they are kids
from other parts of the world that are come here for a, you know,
park like experience or they're retirees or,
or whatever. But they're often people that really care about the parks. And often they.
(28:43):
Some of them really know the parks really, really well, but there's no
incentive for them to necessarily interact with the public
when they're handing them their hamburger. So, yeah,
I think that there's opportunity there as well. Well, that was a great
look at the future of national parks. And while
you've been doing some great work around the world
(29:05):
and it's Encouraging to hear what other countries are
doing and that they care enough about what they're doing to bring UN
to help either train people or
consult on the park system they're building or is there.
I know we invented national parks. We're the
best in the world at it. I always tell myself that we're the best in
(29:28):
the world at it. Is there something else you've seen
throughout the world in parks where you say, now
we met, that may be America's best idea. We may be the best
in the world, but what they've done right there, that would
benefit us to pick up on that. Yeah. I like to say that,
you know, we, The United States, invented the national
(29:50):
park idea, but went around the world and came back. It
was different because to be blood about it, we
imposed our national park western models on
lands that the indigenous people had been forcibly removed
from. So that made it easy, frankly. Well,
now when you're. You take that model and you try to apply it
(30:12):
in China or India or nations
in Africa, there are people still living there. The only place that
we sort of attempted this model was in Alaska,
where the indigenous Alaskan natives were
incorporated into the Alaska Lands Act. And their
rights of subsistence and travel, hunting,
(30:34):
fishing, all of those things were built in. We didn't do that in the lower
48. So one is that we can look to other
countries that have figured this out better than we have. And
I have one. One of my favorite stories is individual at
Harvard that I got to know was telling me about a park in India, a
national park that has tigers. And there is a village
(30:57):
on the edge of the park, and they're villagers that go in
and out of the park. And the tigers
occasionally kill some people. And he said the
village can tolerate two or three, four maybe people
being killed per year by tigers. That's okay. You know,
that's. He's not great. I mean, he's obviously not good. But they don't get upset
(31:19):
too much because that's just sort of the cost of doing business. But if it
gets up to, you know, six or seven, and that's crosses the line.
And I was thinking about that in terms of the U.S. you know, and, you
know, you're living in Cody and outside of Yellowstone, and to
accept, oh, yeah, we're gonna have three or four people from Cody getting eaten by
grizzly bears every year, that'd be okay. That's. You know, there are things that
(31:40):
other countries can get away with that We're. We're not gonna go there,
obviously, as well. But, you know, there
are experimentation going on with parks all over the
world. Now. There's over 200 nations that have national
parks systems, and they are looking for
models of finance, they're looking for models of stewardship, of
(32:02):
community engagement, of planning, you know, and how to
zone, how to do development, road construction,
all those kinds of things. So there's lots of lessons. And I think that,
you know, when, in my experience, when we would send teams
out from the National Park Service to work and help
in other national parks, they come back with a
(32:24):
renewed perspective often about the work that they're
doing both here and in assisting other nations. It's
inspiring to see incredible people working really, really hard in
these other countries to protect these places, often with far,
far less resources or even political support than
we have here in the country. Well, John, if you remember, you and
(32:47):
I were together at the World Ranger Congress in 2016
in Estes Park, Colorado, and what a great experience
that was to see park rangers from all over the world
come together. Now, they didn't experience each other's parks, but
the exchange of ideas and stories was just
fantastic. And what a great opportunity from
(33:10):
someone from Yellowstone as an example to hear what's happening in
Australia or Nepal or just. That was so neat.
And I see that there really is value
in having those conversations, seeing the photos, hearing the
stories of what's going on around the world. Yeah, it is.
And I've always been a big believer in the soft
(33:32):
diplomacy of parks to work with countries where we might
have other economic or political issues, but
working together on parks, on conservation, helping them
save their most important places and to tell their
stories, that's huge. And it's a place
where we can find common ground. And I think that's also the case
(33:55):
here in the United States, frankly, that there's so many things that divide
us. But I still believe that the national parks
are places that we can come together as a nation. It may be one
of the last places that we can come together as the nation and
treat each other with respect and look to the future. That,
you know, these. You know, as Teddy Roosevelt said this, save
(34:17):
the Grand Canyon for your children's children's children. And,
you know, Ken Burns said that the national parks for
this is the Declaration of Independence applied to the ground
that we stand on, the south rim of the Grand Canyon as
co equals in regardless of our politics or
our economics or our race or ethnicity or
(34:40):
sexual preference or whatever, we are there to enjoy
and be a part of these places and be inspired by it. And
I hope that we can continue to do that and use our national
parks to perhaps heal the nation. I'm currently reading
Battle cry for freedom. McPherson spoke about the Civil War.
And, you know, certainly our nation was pretty divided back then
(35:04):
and somehow healed from that. There are still obviously
residuals, but I still think that there's opportunity to use our national
parks as a moment of healing and of learning to
work with our fellow Americans. That is a
fantastic message to wrap on. And just
know John is rooting for you. Keep showing up in
(35:26):
parks, doing the great work. I'm rooting for you. Our parks
are one of the most important things that we've got. So
we're so glad you're out there doing the work. And John, I'm so glad you
were willing to come back now that we've had such a great
conversation. It made me think, my goodness, I should have reached out to John much
sooner. It's always wonderful to talk with you anytime,
(35:48):
Jody. So let's keep in touch. Always great to get on your show and.
And have a chance to talk about something positive.
That's right. That's right. Well, thank you so much and thank you for listening to
the Park Leader Show.
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