May 27, 2025 • 35 mins
“A win in conservation is temporary. You’ll fight for it again. A loss is permanent.”
Notable Moments
[00:01:03] – Why politics and public land are inseparable
[00:04:37] – The impact of the Antiquities Act on land policy
[00:06:57] – South Carolina’s bipartisan approach to land conservation
[00:10:31] – Western vs. Eastern perceptions of public land ownership
[00:15:11] – Economic and social value of protected lands
[00:21:13] – The difference between temporary wins and permanent losses
[00:26:40] – Why every acre counts, from Yellowstone to your local county park
Jody Maberry and Phil Gaines explore the often-overlooked political realities of public land management. They examine how geography, history, and growth shape public land debates differently across regions, especially in the East vs. the West. From the Antiquities Act to state and federal tensions, they reflect on why effective leadership requires understanding policy and public sentiment. Phil shares South Carolina’s strategic approach, and both emphasize that conservation is about legacy—not just land. This episode encourages park leaders to engage in meaningful conversations, beyond politics, to protect the places that define our country.
Read my blog for more about the politics of public lands.
Resources
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Park Leader Show where we are changing the landscape of
leadership in parks and conservation. I'm your host,
Jody Mayberry, and with me is Phil Gaines, the
semi regular guest cohost of the Park Leader Show.
Phil, it is good to have you back. How are you doing? I'm
great, Joe. It's good to be back. How are you doing, my friend? You all
(00:23):
look pretty spiffy today. Oh my goodness. I'm wearing a a
hat. I very rarely wear hats, but I brought a hat
back from Chile. And it's a Chilean clothing
brand called Wild Bama, and they do cool hats. This one is about a national
park, so I'm sporting that today. It's not quite
as prominent as your mustache, but I do what I can. It was either this
(00:45):
or grow a mustache. It looks nice, man. And then in, one
episode, we're gonna have to talk about your adventure to Chile. Yeah. We You said
it was the photographs and the videos that you've sent have just
been spectacular. What a what a special place that was, and what
an opportunity for you to go down there. So Yeah. It was to talk about
that. Well, I'm gonna use what Phil just told us as a
(01:06):
segue into what I wanna talk about, Phil. We're not gonna talk about
Chile yet. We will on another episode. I was down there
on an expedition with The Nature Conservancy because they
are working to protect
325,000 acres of
this just incredible wilderness that almost
(01:27):
got damned much like the Hetch Hetchy, how that was lost
and Hetchy. Has been gone forever. Well, this almost happened
there. So the idea of public land
conservation is hot on my mind. I come home, and, of
course, it is a hot topic here in The States. I've been
very deliberate over ten years, eleven
(01:49):
years now, Phil, of never talking politics
on the park leader show because I
figure it doesn't matter who's in office. We've got a job to
do as park leaders, and the rest is a distraction. So
let's talk about managing parks. Let's talk about leading teams. Let's
talk conservation and leave politics out of it.
(02:11):
So I get this conversation may be the
closest we've come in quite a while to touch on
politics because I feel like you can't talk about public
lands without bringing the politics into it. But we
have Phil Gaines on the show who has walked a very
good line of protection and conservation and
(02:33):
where it fits into politics. And I think your state as a whole, Phil,
has done some pretty incredible things. South Carolina has done
some really good things in conservation. So,
Phil, that's the topic I wanna talk about. We need to
be able to have conversations about protecting public lands,
and, yes, that does involve politics. But what I see
(02:56):
far too often lately, maybe it's always been this
way, you read about Theodore Roosevelt who really started
all of this for us, and he had some rather
stiff opposition to all the land conservation he wanted to do.
So it's always been this way. It's just when you're in it, it feels like,
gosh. This is the it's worse now than it's ever been. Probably not
(03:18):
true, but land conservation is a hot topic
right now. So, Phil, how do we have these conversations
about public lands, walk the line on politics
without making either side an enemy?
Rather, how do we keep them where we can keep
having conversations and not just fight about it and say, because you
(03:40):
don't agree with me, you're wrong. Yes. You know, and
it it is a great topic. And and your trip to Chile is a is
a great example of that is conservation and
public lands or public access is a worldwide issue.
Certainly, it's it's very hot topic now in our world here
in in The United States, but it is, you know, I think it's a
(04:03):
bipartisan topic. And I think it's a
topic that spans generations. If we go back to one of the
one of one of many quotes that I love to quote
my favorite president, Teddy Roosevelt, and a lot of people that
are in our line of work love some Teddy Roosevelt. But Teddy Roosevelt
said at the turn of the last century
(04:26):
in '19 in early nineteen hundreds, Teddy Roosevelt's famous quote
was, there can be no greater cause than conservation
in America. And he was talking about conservation in public lands.
And is it you'll recall around that same time when
Teddy Roosevelt was creating this concept of
conservation and public land protections is about the
(04:49):
same time that came out of the Roosevelt era,
the Antiquities Act. And, you know, the Antiquities Act of
nineteen o six is kinda what is really, I think, in
my opinion, made this topic of public lands. It kind
of accelerated it into being a little bit more political. So the
intent of the Antiquities Act nineteen o six kinda
(05:11):
empowered the president to designate national monuments.
And, you know, Teddy Roosevelt did that masterfully. And
then it, you know, and it was kind of no brainer stuff. And then over
the years and the decades, presidents had used that
presidential authority to designate some stuff. And
then, you know, president Carter did a lot of that
(05:33):
in Alaska during his presidency. And then,
you know, more recently, the, you know, Obama did
the the Bears Ears, and then first administration
of president Trump kind of scaled that back, and then
president Biden kinda did some other stuff. And so now so part
of this debate, if you will, is it doesn't matter which party it
(05:56):
is because we've seen both parties use it and take
advantage of it. And it's kind of born out of this conservation
movement by Teddy Roosevelt with the Antiquities Act.
So and I think one of the most fascinating things and to kinda delve into
this without being political is to look at it is so I'm gonna give
you my perspective as the retired director here in South Carolina,
(06:18):
but as a as a lifelong southerner and a person who
predominantly spends most of their time in the East. But
I love the West, and I love traveling to the West, and I I just
love going out West. But I learned early on when I was on some
national committees to work on the Land Water
Conservation Fund reauthorization in that is the
(06:40):
perception of public lands really depends on where you're at in the
country. Here on the East Coast, it's a lot different than what
Westerners see as the impact of public lands.
You talked about how well we've done some things here in in South
Carolina with conservation. And we have in the last
decade or so, I would say. We have our our current governor who
(07:03):
is a Republican, and I live in a very conservative
state as everyone knows. It's not a political statement, a factual statement.
But one of the things that drives conservation here in South Carolina is because we
have really special natural and cultural resources. In a very
small state. You know, you can go from the mountains to the sea
in a very short period of time. So we have this dramatic landscape
(07:26):
that we've always kinda defined that that's part of who we are. And
quite frankly, we haven't done a great job of land protection
on the ocean, and we don't have we always talk about we don't have enough
public access to the ocean. But another thing that's really
driven a lot of the easterners' mindset, particularly
here in South Carolina, South Carolina is, depending on which research
(07:48):
paper you look at, is the fastest growing state in
America or always in the top five fastest growing
places in America. So one of the things that our governor has really made
a concentrated effort on is that we really have to be strategic in
how we manage growth, but also in protecting the things
that we as South Carolinians see that defines us
(08:10):
and that we believe in. And so our state has spent
a lot of money, time, and effort in protecting very special
places from mountain tops and escarpments
in the Blue Ridge Mountains to the coastline,
the marsh, farmlands. You know, it is very routinely
now in in east to see large what used to be large
(08:32):
family farms now split up and subdivided into
communities and development and all that kind of, you know, modernization.
But the bottom line of this is is is the more people you need to
protect and preserve those things that you find that that
are dear to what your region or your state cares about. And South
Carolina has done a very good job of that. And governor McMaster has
(08:55):
has talked about that's one of his things that he wants his legacy to
be remember of remembered for his conservation and protecting
lands and in public lands. So I think there's one part in the
South, in particular, in the East in general. There's a lot of
people here, and it's important to try to manage that
growth in a positive way and to protect the things that need
(09:17):
protecting. And as people, we need these things. This
part of that quality of life formula, that economic
formula that sustains economic growth. You gotta have these public
spaces and these public lands for people to have places
to recreate and to recharge their batteries. But as
you go out west, the land becomes, you know,
(09:40):
more expansive. And so public lands are different
in states like Wyoming and Montana and Utah
and than they are here in the crowded East
or in the crowded South and then, you know, in the crowded Southern
states that are having this tremendous piece of growth. But it's,
you know, so you got to look at that and then you got to educate
(10:02):
as public servants, as people who care about land and
as conservationists, you gotta educate yourself and others of
why these things are important and why they need protecting.
So you're kind of a I guess, you're officially a
western person now, but you weren't always from the West. But you
can as much as you travel and you come to the Southeast a lot,
(10:24):
there's a big difference in in the perception of public lands
from the East and the West. Wouldn't you say? Yeah. I think
there is. And maybe it's this opinion has always been
in the West, but there are some places in the West, I'll
pull up two examples, where the the view of public
lands isn't quite what you would expect. So
(10:47):
we have some Western states that have an
abundance of public lands, Utah being one of
them, who recently has said, we didn't want the
federal government to have this much public land. We want it back
as state land. So that's going on. You mentioned president
Carter set aside a lot of public land in Alaska. He
(11:08):
did. He created eight national parks in a single day
in Alaska. It benefits all of us that it's there. But if you
go to Alaska, and there are some people that say, we never asked for that.
We never wanted that. It was just forced on us. We didn't
want that here. So it's kind of I don't know if you consider
Alaska the West, but it's just a good example because nowhere else
(11:32):
in a single day has public lands in a in a
state changed so much. And it's just a good example
of we can celebrate it from afar, but there are people who have
it in their backyard to say that's not what we wanted.
And, yeah, you can say it's for the benefit of people in
Cleveland and Duluth and Buffalo, but what about us? We live right here, and
(11:54):
we didn't want it. Now that is not the majority opinion
in the West, but that is a strong opinion in the West. And you
also we just have so much of it, which is a
great thing, that there's sometimes a view
of, well, it gets in the way. Sometimes it's not
appreciated the way it should be, I think, because there is a lot of
(12:16):
it. And in the West, since there's not as many people,
there's also a side that said, well, now you're locking
up a lot of resources that could benefit the public.
Timber, gas, oil, mining. So you you
have a lot of that in the West that you don't have in the East
because even if it wasn't a park, well, you're
(12:38):
probably not gonna mine it. You're probably not gonna cut all the trees down, but
that's always a risk here in the West. Yeah. I think, you know,
now in 2025, if you don't have
public lands preserved and set aside in the East,
then it becomes a development. It becomes a neighborhood. It becomes a
shopping mall. It becomes an industrial plant. And so that's
(13:00):
completely different in South Carolina. But I think a lot
of Southern states are like this, is that if you're not preserving
and protecting some of these properties now, then they will be turned
into housing developments and neighborhoods. And and the growth
is crazy. From the time when I was
growing up in South Carolina, our population has over
(13:22):
doubled in size. So, I mean, we are and that's in a short period
of time, relatively speaking. Probably in the last twenty, thirty years, our
population has doubled in South Carolina, and a lot of Southern states
are doing this. So if this landscape that we all love and care
about is not taken care of, then it'll be developed.
And so that's part of this and when the West kinda sees it. But I
(13:45):
think the point of making this discussion is that it's not
so much political as Democrats and Republicans.
It's it's hard because we're a great big country
that has a lot of geography that's completely
different. And and we see the world different based on some of that
geography that we have in in the way the last two hundred
(14:08):
and fifty years have evolved in our country. And it's not that one is
right and the other is wrong. It's just that we've got to find
a balance. And that's what conservation is, is we gotta find
a balance to preserve and protect and
think more past this generation and think for future
generations. And in my role over the years as a public servant,
(14:31):
I'll look back, and I've been in many meetings that the conversation
when we talk about public beach access. And we would all agree,
democrats, republicans, independents would all agree, that if we had to do
it over again, we would have saved and protected and
preserved more public beach access than we did.
But that that's gone, and you can't go back and fix that because
(14:53):
that's done. But if we had to do it over again, you know, we'd have
probably saved more and provided more public beach access to the
Atlantic Ocean. That being said is some of these things, what makes it
hard is that, you know, we don't have a crystal ball, and we don't know
what's gonna be deemed important a hundred years from now or even fifty years from
now. So you have to look at this thing the right way
(15:14):
and of what the importance of public land are. Some of the things
that we've talked about, I can't help but think about our friend, Walt Dabney. And,
you know, Walt is on a crusade to talk about public
lands now. And if if you wanna hear more about that part of it, I
think Walt's been on the podcast, but Walt's you can YouTube
Walt and then he'll talk about that. But Walt was one of the ones that
(15:35):
the National Park Service, and I've heard Walt tell this story several
times. Walt was one of the ones that the National Park Service sent to Alaska
to do these lands when Carter was there, and he talked about how tough it
was and that they were not you know, it was like it was, not here
come the good guys. It was like, what are y'all doing here kind of thing.
So, again, I think it goes back to it's really hard.
(15:57):
And you gotta do from our standpoint, we can't just ignore
this. We gotta be the ones that that talk, you know, in
a nonpartisan way and educate people about
the importance of public lands. And it's not
just beautiful vistas and places to hike. It's all the
things that go with it. It's the economic engine that they provide, the
(16:19):
economics of it, the tourism part of it, the social aspects of
it. You know? And I think when you start doing these things, you cannot do
it in a vacuum with just conservationists or just
people who don't want it. You you gotta have all these disciplines in the
room making these decisions because it's an economic decision. It's a
social decision. You know, it's conservation. It's
(16:41):
preservation, and there's a difference between those two. So So you gotta have a lot
of players. The other thing that I think sometimes that that we
as professionals in this field that we forget
sometimes is we are here as stewards and
look for things in the best interest of the common good and of the
general public and the citizens that we serve. And so a lot of times,
(17:03):
and we see this a lot in the East, you know, sometimes we
get called up into and it's human nature. We get called up
into who owns this, and we feel like we have to
own it, whether it's US Forest Service, National Park Service,
state parks, you know, county parks, so those kind of things.
And in my later years and certainly now in some of the work that I
(17:25):
do, I realized that the general public
doesn't care who owns it. It's just important that it's
is protected and it's and there's public access to it.
So I think one of the things that is being floated out there now
is is the federal government the right person to own all this stuff? And I'm
not gonna get in that debate because I don't know enough about what all the
(17:47):
plans are. But I would think is if that is on the
table, then, you know, you certainly gotta look at is what are we looking
for? Is it who owns it, or is it it's protected? There's
many pieces of property that were adjacent to a state park in my
career that I finally got to the point that I couldn't own everything.
And I said, it's not important that I own this piece of property adjacent
(18:09):
to this special place, but it's important that it's protected. And whether
it's protected by good conservation easement or a good
partner like the Nature Conservancy or some you know, one of those
kind of players or a conservation group is what's really
important. And sometimes we just get caught up in all this political
stuff, and we don't do our homework, and we don't drill down deep
(18:31):
enough. Because one of the things that, you know, you tell me,
but some of these Western lands that that we may think in the East are
these pristine things. They've got lots of stuff going on. You know, the
Bureau of Land Management has they do leases for mineral rights
and grazing and and all that kind of good stuff. It's not like
they're pristine and in a preservation mode. They're in a
(18:53):
real conservation mode. So but I don't think everybody
gets deep enough and see what the real issue is. And the hard part about
this real issue is when Teddy Roosevelt talked about it, you know, a hundred
and twenty years ago, And he said, there could be no greater cause in
conservation in America right now. The same is true right
now with the growth of of certain regions and the
(19:16):
changing demographics of new people and all
the things that are going on. His quote, this over a hundred
years old is still really relevant today. There can
be no greater cause than conservation in our
country right now. And the worst thing we can do is is politicize
it, in my opinion. We need to figure out how to do this
(19:38):
because public lands are so important. I mean, it's like, you know,
for me personally and I know that me and you are not normal that we
like to do this, but, you know, I can't imagine not having any
public lands to go to because that's that's where I go to to scratch my
itch. And, you know, I just got back from a great hike in
the Sumter National Forest. It's managed by the US Forest Service in this
(20:00):
public lands, and I go in and and get to hike and camp
and see what waterfalls and experience stuff, and this is part of
why we're the greatest country in the world is that we set
aside these special places that always connect us to why
we're here. So that's a southerners point of view of why
we need to do this. And I know it's completely different than the West because
(20:23):
I spend a lot of time out West with some friends and do things out
there and and love to go out West, but it's completely different. But it's it
doesn't make it any less important. There can be
no greater cause in conservation in America, and that quote is still
true today over a hundred years later, I think. One thing that
you're that quote reminds me of on the expedition in
(20:46):
Chile, One of the people in the group of course, conservation
was a big topic. That is why we were there. And somebody
had mentioned one of the hardest things about devoting so
much time to conservation, having your whole career in conservation
is that a win is temporary
(21:06):
because you'll have to fight for it again eventually, and a loss is permanent.
If you lose, you lose it forever. And I That's a great
that is so true, though. Yeah. And you've seen that. That's what you're going through
right now, Phil. Your governor is realizing we're
gonna lose these places forever if we don't protect them right now.
Absolutely. And and there's examples in in, you know, East
(21:28):
Coast places of, like, you know, in South Carolina, I love
South Carolina. And anybody who knows me knows that. I love me some South
Carolina. But if we had to do it over again, we
would we would protect and preserve and provide more public beach
access. And And he just got away from us because it's the beach, and everybody
wants to be there. And we had visionary people
(21:50):
who said forty years ago, if we don't save our mountains,
they'll be gone too. And, you know, and I think that, you know,
on a very elementary level, the places that go first are
oceans, mountains, rivers, lakes. And, you
know, and if you don't manage them or protect them,
then more people like me can't go see them. That's right. You know,
(22:12):
I I can't get in there because there's a gate across it, and I gotta
have a membership or I gotta have a big house back there. And and that's
one of the great things about our country is I have access to all these
lands that that are mine because I'm an American, and
that's worth protecting. And we gotta figure out how to do it without
politicizing everything that we do, and I know that's the that's the way we
(22:34):
do things now. But, we gotta figure out a way to do
that because, like you say, you lose, you don't get another
chance. You win, we'll go fight it again five years, ten years,
twenty years, hundred years from now. And what we don't wanna do
is, in our career, come back thirty years and say,
man, I wish we would have protected that piece of land now that's a that's
(22:56):
a gated community that I can't go back and show you this really cool place
anymore because it's a gated community. Nothing against gated
communities, but special places are special places, and that's and
they define who we are. And as Americans and as
Americans, they define what we deem important, and I think that's important too. We
just gotta figure out how to how to do this. And maybe maybe if we
(23:17):
could do this in public lands and conservation, maybe that could be a good
model to help us out on some of these other things that we have problems
getting along with each other on. Oh, Phil, I
if I would have had an American flag next to my desk, I would have
been waving it, well, during that last piece there. That was wonderful.
I think a good example of what Phil's talking about, and maybe this is
(23:39):
not as well known in the East as it is in the West, but the
one place that is held up as, if you're not
fierce about protection, you'll lose it forever, is the Hetch Hetchy Valley.
That is the one that's in the West for conservationists viewed
as that never should have happened. We let that one get away,
and people are still haunted by it today. People like Robert
(24:01):
Hanna are still fighting to get the dam removed in the
Hetch Hetchy Valley restored. And it is it's
amazing the hard work people put in, and I
certainly appreciate it. And this has been a good discussion about public
lands or the politics of public lands because Phil
just summed it up as Phil tends to do in what I've
(24:24):
been grasping for this whole episode is what Phil said. If
we can work together, show the benefit of public lands,
it's not really political. Although, by the
terms of what political is, I guess it is. But the
politics of public lands really is this benefits all of us.
And if you need to if someone's conservation minded, yes, go
(24:46):
that route. If someone's economic minded, yes, go that
route. Show the benefits of it because if we can work together
to protect these wonderful places, well, maybe we can use that same
method to solve other problems as Phil told us. Phil,
as we wind this episode down, do you have any last
words about the politics of public lands? You know, I think
(25:08):
the for us as part professionals and conservation
minded people is get past the noise from
both sides because where real stuff happens is a
little is two or three layers deeper. And it's we generalize so
much now. And so what our role is is to educate people
about, you know, the importance of public lands and not only for
(25:31):
this generation, but for future generations. And all you have to do is look
around our country to say, you know, Hetch Hetchy is a great
example. The beaches on the East Coast,
historic sites in in in places. You know, Gettysburg is I'm
doing some work on battlefield protection now. And one of the things at Gettysburg,
everybody talks about Gettysburg. And the reason Gettysburg is from the
(25:53):
very get go. Everyone said, Gettysburg, this is a
very special place. This is hallowed ground, and let's protect it. And they
protected Gettysburg from day one. I mean, they didn't wait
for I mean, they they knew that what had happened at Gettysburg was so
but thank goodness someone did because time goes by
and it's like we lose these things. And if we lose these things,
(26:16):
we lose a part of us. And I think that's what's important.
And, you know, to to get all those sides, I think you're spot on when
you say, we can't just talk as part people and talk
about these things that that I care about, that I know how to push those
buttons to other part people on. But you gotta sit in a room with a
businessman and say, you know, the economic engine that
(26:37):
these places provide is really important. The quality of
life when you're sitting in with, you know, a representative
from wherever and you go, the quality of life
that these public lands do is why this factory won't it be
here? You know, the public lands that where you you
know, following you, Jody, one of your and I won't get the
(27:00):
place right, so you have to tell me where it is. But one of your
places that you like living where you live is that you routinely
go to a public land with your dog, and that's why you
love living where you live. Right? That's right. Me and my
dog are constantly at public lands. In
this case, the two we visit the most are county
(27:21):
parks. Phil and I have been talking national parks, state
parks. Well, for me personally, in my lifestyle, the
most important parks to me are county parks. So
this goes in all directions. Every piece of public
land is important. Not yes. The big tracks, the
300,000 acre properties are important, but so is the
(27:42):
26 acre county park. Yeah. I think it's hard for
southerners and easterners to even wrap their head around. I was listening
to a report the other day about the controversy of Bears
Ear Bears Ear and, you know, how it's grown and not
but it's like 1,200,000 acres or something like that. You know,
if if you're in on the East Coast, you can't even wrap your head
(28:04):
about how big that is. I mean, that's that's as big as some
states on the Eastern Seaboard. It's so it's you
gotta dig a little bit deeper to understand the complexities of
protecting public land and its benefit and its value. And I don't think
there's any question of how valuable these public
lands are. And one of the things is is go visit go visit
(28:26):
them. And when you walk away, you'll say, man, I I sure am glad
that, you know, Yosemite is protected. The Great Smoky
Mountains is protected, and that Myrtle Beach State Park
is there, and Gettysburg is there, and Valley Forge is
there. And it's, you know, it's these are so important to us, and they define
who we are as a country. And that's what makes us, you know, this
(28:48):
unique thing that that we're, you know, the greatest nation in the
world. And that's part of our fiber, that's part of our makeup. So I think
it's really important. And as as part folks, we need to be
advocates for educating folks in in the importance of
public lands. I got an advanced copy of a
book that comes out this summer about conserving or
(29:09):
conservation in Yellowstone National Park. And it's a
it's fascinating look to say, Yellowstone is
massive. But when we protected it, it
was unprecedented. No one in the world had ever done that.
But we didn't even have a clue what we were
protecting. And now years decades, hundreds of
(29:31):
years later, we realize if we are gonna protect the
bison and the bear and the wolves and the elk, it's not
just the boundaries of this national park. There are some really
there's, like, this whole area around Yellowstone that needs
conserved as well. And I think that's a piece that
ties into what Phil was talking about that in the East, if
(29:54):
you don't protect this wooded lot, well, then it gets
developed. And then maybe you find out that wooded lot
was important for another reason. That's why
Phil said it doesn't matter who protects it just so long as it's protected.
And in our public lands, we're we're talking politics of public
lands on this episode. And sometimes even in
(30:16):
protected properties, you have politics. I can think
of a state park near me where there has
always been politics back and forth between
the mountain bike riding group and the equestrian group.
And their chief aim for both of them is that that
property is protected. And now that it's protected,
(30:39):
let's bicker back and forth about what horses can and can't do and
what bikes can and can't do. But they both want the same thing. They both
want that property protected. And there's so many good stories like that around the
country, Phil. I have one more piece unrelated. You were talking about
how South Carolina didn't protect their beaches as well.
When we're done, get out your old Rand McNally Atlas
(31:01):
and flip through the o's to Oregon and just
look at the coastline in Oregon. It is
just one state park after another all the way down the coast. It's all state
parks. It is incredible. The whole coast. State parks. I do not know
the history about that. I think I should do that research. But
somebody, somewhere along the line, must have said, gosh. Look
(31:23):
what South Carolina did. Let's not do that. It's incredible. I was
two last things. So, like, in South Carolina, Myrtle Beach State Park.
Everybody knows Myrtle Beach. Myrtle Beach State Park, great state park.
Very, very busy people come from all over to come to Myrtle Beach's
pack. One of the most visited parks in South Carolina generates
most revenue all the time, all that kind of good stuff. Myrtle Beach State
(31:46):
Park is 300 acres. So several years ago,
when I was director, we were having discussions with folks, local
folks, about providing more public beach access for South
Carolinians. And the main public beach access points
in that area were Myrtle Beach State Park. And there were
democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, you
(32:08):
know, tree huggers, people who hate tree huggers, all in this one
room together. And so what we we looked at in a in a rare
moment of brilliance, I says, so if if we were doing
this today and everything looked completely different and I came
to y'all and says, we got an opportunity to build a state park here.
And if I said 300 acres, everyone
(32:30):
would probably say, okay. So 300 acres, we can build
access roads and have parking with that 300
acres. What about the rest of the park that protects the shoreline?
So, I mean, 300 acres is what you need for parking at
Myrtle Beach, and it's the entire park. And it's not
because people didn't care. They recognize that because it was it was the
(32:52):
first park in South Carolina by the Civilian Conservation Corps. But it
was like what you were saying when they purchased it. It was in the middle
of nowhere. It's hard to get to, and this is enough. And
then the next thing you know is like, this happens, this happens, this happens,
and then it's gone, and it's too late. So you gotta be
forward thinking. You gotta be visionary. And it's hard to do, but, you
(33:14):
know, leadership is hard. Jody, I I think we've done pretty good
job by not bringing politics into this, and and I
pledged I wouldn't be political. But I'm a tell you that
this fall, I think we should be political, and I'm gonna be political.
And I'm gonna tell I'm gonna tell everybody who I'm voting for.
So during fat bear week, just in the fall, I'm gonna tell
(33:36):
everybody which bear I'm voting for. And if y'all have never voted in fat bear
week, you need to go online and vote for fat bear week, and I'll tell
you who I'm voting for. So that's all the political commentary I'll do on this
podcast ever. I promise. Fat bear week. Oh, I'm
glad you brought fat bear week into this. That is the
best, most fun election you will ever participate
(33:57):
in, and it can get heated, Phil. Some people Oh, yeah, man. Their
strong opinions about their bear. So Fat Bear Week in the
fall. Look for it. Alright. Phil, This was a a great
conversation. I think this is an important topic. I was
going to say right now, but, also, look how old that quote
from Theodore Roosevelt is. This has been an issue for a hundred and
(34:19):
twenty years, and I don't think it's any less important now than when
Theodore Roosevelt said that. Hopefully, Phil and I have given
you some things to think about, some things to discuss
with your fellow park rangers, park professionals
about the politics of public lands and how you can talk
more about them, maybe what you need to know. Because
(34:41):
sometimes that just helps having examples to talk about,
stories to tell, numbers if you need it. Hopefully, Phil and I have
pointed you in that right in the right direction. If you have any questions,
reach out. You can find me at jody, j o d y, at
park leaders dot com. Phil, thank you so much for being here. Again,
this was this was a great conversation. Thanks, Jody. And thank
(35:04):
you for listening to the Park Leaders Show.
Welcome to the Park Leader Show where we are changing the landscape of
leadership in parks and conservation. I'm your host,
Jody Mayberry, and with me is Phil Gaines, the
semi regular guest cohost of the Park Leader Show.
Phil, it is good to have you back. How are you doing? I'm
great, Joe. It's good to be back. How are you doing, my friend? You all
(00:23):
look pretty spiffy today. Oh my goodness. I'm wearing a a
hat. I very rarely wear hats, but I brought a hat
back from Chile. And it's a Chilean clothing
brand called Wild Bama, and they do cool hats. This one is about a national
park, so I'm sporting that today. It's not quite
as prominent as your mustache, but I do what I can. It was either this
(00:45):
or grow a mustache. It looks nice, man. And then in, one
episode, we're gonna have to talk about your adventure to Chile. Yeah. We You said
it was the photographs and the videos that you've sent have just
been spectacular. What a what a special place that was, and what
an opportunity for you to go down there. So Yeah. It was to talk about
that. Well, I'm gonna use what Phil just told us as a
(01:06):
segue into what I wanna talk about, Phil. We're not gonna talk about
Chile yet. We will on another episode. I was down there
on an expedition with The Nature Conservancy because they
are working to protect
325,000 acres of
this just incredible wilderness that almost
(01:27):
got damned much like the Hetch Hetchy, how that was lost
and Hetchy. Has been gone forever. Well, this almost happened
there. So the idea of public land
conservation is hot on my mind. I come home, and, of
course, it is a hot topic here in The States. I've been
very deliberate over ten years, eleven
(01:49):
years now, Phil, of never talking politics
on the park leader show because I
figure it doesn't matter who's in office. We've got a job to
do as park leaders, and the rest is a distraction. So
let's talk about managing parks. Let's talk about leading teams. Let's
talk conservation and leave politics out of it.
(02:11):
So I get this conversation may be the
closest we've come in quite a while to touch on
politics because I feel like you can't talk about public
lands without bringing the politics into it. But we
have Phil Gaines on the show who has walked a very
good line of protection and conservation and
(02:33):
where it fits into politics. And I think your state as a whole, Phil,
has done some pretty incredible things. South Carolina has done
some really good things in conservation. So,
Phil, that's the topic I wanna talk about. We need to
be able to have conversations about protecting public lands,
and, yes, that does involve politics. But what I see
(02:56):
far too often lately, maybe it's always been this
way, you read about Theodore Roosevelt who really started
all of this for us, and he had some rather
stiff opposition to all the land conservation he wanted to do.
So it's always been this way. It's just when you're in it, it feels like,
gosh. This is the it's worse now than it's ever been. Probably not
(03:18):
true, but land conservation is a hot topic
right now. So, Phil, how do we have these conversations
about public lands, walk the line on politics
without making either side an enemy?
Rather, how do we keep them where we can keep
having conversations and not just fight about it and say, because you
(03:40):
don't agree with me, you're wrong. Yes. You know, and
it it is a great topic. And and your trip to Chile is a is
a great example of that is conservation and
public lands or public access is a worldwide issue.
Certainly, it's it's very hot topic now in our world here
in in The United States, but it is, you know, I think it's a
(04:03):
bipartisan topic. And I think it's a
topic that spans generations. If we go back to one of the
one of one of many quotes that I love to quote
my favorite president, Teddy Roosevelt, and a lot of people that
are in our line of work love some Teddy Roosevelt. But Teddy Roosevelt
said at the turn of the last century
(04:26):
in '19 in early nineteen hundreds, Teddy Roosevelt's famous quote
was, there can be no greater cause than conservation
in America. And he was talking about conservation in public lands.
And is it you'll recall around that same time when
Teddy Roosevelt was creating this concept of
conservation and public land protections is about the
(04:49):
same time that came out of the Roosevelt era,
the Antiquities Act. And, you know, the Antiquities Act of
nineteen o six is kinda what is really, I think, in
my opinion, made this topic of public lands. It kind
of accelerated it into being a little bit more political. So the
intent of the Antiquities Act nineteen o six kinda
(05:11):
empowered the president to designate national monuments.
And, you know, Teddy Roosevelt did that masterfully. And
then it, you know, and it was kind of no brainer stuff. And then over
the years and the decades, presidents had used that
presidential authority to designate some stuff. And
then, you know, president Carter did a lot of that
(05:33):
in Alaska during his presidency. And then,
you know, more recently, the, you know, Obama did
the the Bears Ears, and then first administration
of president Trump kind of scaled that back, and then
president Biden kinda did some other stuff. And so now so part
of this debate, if you will, is it doesn't matter which party it
(05:56):
is because we've seen both parties use it and take
advantage of it. And it's kind of born out of this conservation
movement by Teddy Roosevelt with the Antiquities Act.
So and I think one of the most fascinating things and to kinda delve into
this without being political is to look at it is so I'm gonna give
you my perspective as the retired director here in South Carolina,
(06:18):
but as a as a lifelong southerner and a person who
predominantly spends most of their time in the East. But
I love the West, and I love traveling to the West, and I I just
love going out West. But I learned early on when I was on some
national committees to work on the Land Water
Conservation Fund reauthorization in that is the
(06:40):
perception of public lands really depends on where you're at in the
country. Here on the East Coast, it's a lot different than what
Westerners see as the impact of public lands.
You talked about how well we've done some things here in in South
Carolina with conservation. And we have in the last
decade or so, I would say. We have our our current governor who
(07:03):
is a Republican, and I live in a very conservative
state as everyone knows. It's not a political statement, a factual statement.
But one of the things that drives conservation here in South Carolina is because we
have really special natural and cultural resources. In a very
small state. You know, you can go from the mountains to the sea
in a very short period of time. So we have this dramatic landscape
(07:26):
that we've always kinda defined that that's part of who we are. And
quite frankly, we haven't done a great job of land protection
on the ocean, and we don't have we always talk about we don't have enough
public access to the ocean. But another thing that's really
driven a lot of the easterners' mindset, particularly
here in South Carolina, South Carolina is, depending on which research
(07:48):
paper you look at, is the fastest growing state in
America or always in the top five fastest growing
places in America. So one of the things that our governor has really made
a concentrated effort on is that we really have to be strategic in
how we manage growth, but also in protecting the things
that we as South Carolinians see that defines us
(08:10):
and that we believe in. And so our state has spent
a lot of money, time, and effort in protecting very special
places from mountain tops and escarpments
in the Blue Ridge Mountains to the coastline,
the marsh, farmlands. You know, it is very routinely
now in in east to see large what used to be large
(08:32):
family farms now split up and subdivided into
communities and development and all that kind of, you know, modernization.
But the bottom line of this is is is the more people you need to
protect and preserve those things that you find that that
are dear to what your region or your state cares about. And South
Carolina has done a very good job of that. And governor McMaster has
(08:55):
has talked about that's one of his things that he wants his legacy to
be remember of remembered for his conservation and protecting
lands and in public lands. So I think there's one part in the
South, in particular, in the East in general. There's a lot of
people here, and it's important to try to manage that
growth in a positive way and to protect the things that need
(09:17):
protecting. And as people, we need these things. This
part of that quality of life formula, that economic
formula that sustains economic growth. You gotta have these public
spaces and these public lands for people to have places
to recreate and to recharge their batteries. But as
you go out west, the land becomes, you know,
(09:40):
more expansive. And so public lands are different
in states like Wyoming and Montana and Utah
and than they are here in the crowded East
or in the crowded South and then, you know, in the crowded Southern
states that are having this tremendous piece of growth. But it's,
you know, so you got to look at that and then you got to educate
(10:02):
as public servants, as people who care about land and
as conservationists, you gotta educate yourself and others of
why these things are important and why they need protecting.
So you're kind of a I guess, you're officially a
western person now, but you weren't always from the West. But you
can as much as you travel and you come to the Southeast a lot,
(10:24):
there's a big difference in in the perception of public lands
from the East and the West. Wouldn't you say? Yeah. I think
there is. And maybe it's this opinion has always been
in the West, but there are some places in the West, I'll
pull up two examples, where the the view of public
lands isn't quite what you would expect. So
(10:47):
we have some Western states that have an
abundance of public lands, Utah being one of
them, who recently has said, we didn't want the
federal government to have this much public land. We want it back
as state land. So that's going on. You mentioned president
Carter set aside a lot of public land in Alaska. He
(11:08):
did. He created eight national parks in a single day
in Alaska. It benefits all of us that it's there. But if you
go to Alaska, and there are some people that say, we never asked for that.
We never wanted that. It was just forced on us. We didn't
want that here. So it's kind of I don't know if you consider
Alaska the West, but it's just a good example because nowhere else
(11:32):
in a single day has public lands in a in a
state changed so much. And it's just a good example
of we can celebrate it from afar, but there are people who have
it in their backyard to say that's not what we wanted.
And, yeah, you can say it's for the benefit of people in
Cleveland and Duluth and Buffalo, but what about us? We live right here, and
(11:54):
we didn't want it. Now that is not the majority opinion
in the West, but that is a strong opinion in the West. And you
also we just have so much of it, which is a
great thing, that there's sometimes a view
of, well, it gets in the way. Sometimes it's not
appreciated the way it should be, I think, because there is a lot of
(12:16):
it. And in the West, since there's not as many people,
there's also a side that said, well, now you're locking
up a lot of resources that could benefit the public.
Timber, gas, oil, mining. So you you
have a lot of that in the West that you don't have in the East
because even if it wasn't a park, well, you're
(12:38):
probably not gonna mine it. You're probably not gonna cut all the trees down, but
that's always a risk here in the West. Yeah. I think, you know,
now in 2025, if you don't have
public lands preserved and set aside in the East,
then it becomes a development. It becomes a neighborhood. It becomes a
shopping mall. It becomes an industrial plant. And so that's
(13:00):
completely different in South Carolina. But I think a lot
of Southern states are like this, is that if you're not preserving
and protecting some of these properties now, then they will be turned
into housing developments and neighborhoods. And and the growth
is crazy. From the time when I was
growing up in South Carolina, our population has over
(13:22):
doubled in size. So, I mean, we are and that's in a short period
of time, relatively speaking. Probably in the last twenty, thirty years, our
population has doubled in South Carolina, and a lot of Southern states
are doing this. So if this landscape that we all love and care
about is not taken care of, then it'll be developed.
And so that's part of this and when the West kinda sees it. But I
(13:45):
think the point of making this discussion is that it's not
so much political as Democrats and Republicans.
It's it's hard because we're a great big country
that has a lot of geography that's completely
different. And and we see the world different based on some of that
geography that we have in in the way the last two hundred
(14:08):
and fifty years have evolved in our country. And it's not that one is
right and the other is wrong. It's just that we've got to find
a balance. And that's what conservation is, is we gotta find
a balance to preserve and protect and
think more past this generation and think for future
generations. And in my role over the years as a public servant,
(14:31):
I'll look back, and I've been in many meetings that the conversation
when we talk about public beach access. And we would all agree,
democrats, republicans, independents would all agree, that if we had to do
it over again, we would have saved and protected and
preserved more public beach access than we did.
But that that's gone, and you can't go back and fix that because
(14:53):
that's done. But if we had to do it over again, you know, we'd have
probably saved more and provided more public beach access to the
Atlantic Ocean. That being said is some of these things, what makes it
hard is that, you know, we don't have a crystal ball, and we don't know
what's gonna be deemed important a hundred years from now or even fifty years from
now. So you have to look at this thing the right way
(15:14):
and of what the importance of public land are. Some of the things
that we've talked about, I can't help but think about our friend, Walt Dabney. And,
you know, Walt is on a crusade to talk about public
lands now. And if if you wanna hear more about that part of it, I
think Walt's been on the podcast, but Walt's you can YouTube
Walt and then he'll talk about that. But Walt was one of the ones that
(15:35):
the National Park Service, and I've heard Walt tell this story several
times. Walt was one of the ones that the National Park Service sent to Alaska
to do these lands when Carter was there, and he talked about how tough it
was and that they were not you know, it was like it was, not here
come the good guys. It was like, what are y'all doing here kind of thing.
So, again, I think it goes back to it's really hard.
(15:57):
And you gotta do from our standpoint, we can't just ignore
this. We gotta be the ones that that talk, you know, in
a nonpartisan way and educate people about
the importance of public lands. And it's not
just beautiful vistas and places to hike. It's all the
things that go with it. It's the economic engine that they provide, the
(16:19):
economics of it, the tourism part of it, the social aspects of
it. You know? And I think when you start doing these things, you cannot do
it in a vacuum with just conservationists or just
people who don't want it. You you gotta have all these disciplines in the
room making these decisions because it's an economic decision. It's a
social decision. You know, it's conservation. It's
(16:41):
preservation, and there's a difference between those two. So So you gotta have a lot
of players. The other thing that I think sometimes that that we
as professionals in this field that we forget
sometimes is we are here as stewards and
look for things in the best interest of the common good and of the
general public and the citizens that we serve. And so a lot of times,
(17:03):
and we see this a lot in the East, you know, sometimes we
get called up into and it's human nature. We get called up
into who owns this, and we feel like we have to
own it, whether it's US Forest Service, National Park Service,
state parks, you know, county parks, so those kind of things.
And in my later years and certainly now in some of the work that I
(17:25):
do, I realized that the general public
doesn't care who owns it. It's just important that it's
is protected and it's and there's public access to it.
So I think one of the things that is being floated out there now
is is the federal government the right person to own all this stuff? And I'm
not gonna get in that debate because I don't know enough about what all the
(17:47):
plans are. But I would think is if that is on the
table, then, you know, you certainly gotta look at is what are we looking
for? Is it who owns it, or is it it's protected? There's
many pieces of property that were adjacent to a state park in my
career that I finally got to the point that I couldn't own everything.
And I said, it's not important that I own this piece of property adjacent
(18:09):
to this special place, but it's important that it's protected. And whether
it's protected by good conservation easement or a good
partner like the Nature Conservancy or some you know, one of those
kind of players or a conservation group is what's really
important. And sometimes we just get caught up in all this political
stuff, and we don't do our homework, and we don't drill down deep
(18:31):
enough. Because one of the things that, you know, you tell me,
but some of these Western lands that that we may think in the East are
these pristine things. They've got lots of stuff going on. You know, the
Bureau of Land Management has they do leases for mineral rights
and grazing and and all that kind of good stuff. It's not like
they're pristine and in a preservation mode. They're in a
(18:53):
real conservation mode. So but I don't think everybody
gets deep enough and see what the real issue is. And the hard part about
this real issue is when Teddy Roosevelt talked about it, you know, a hundred
and twenty years ago, And he said, there could be no greater cause in
conservation in America right now. The same is true right
now with the growth of of certain regions and the
(19:16):
changing demographics of new people and all
the things that are going on. His quote, this over a hundred
years old is still really relevant today. There can
be no greater cause than conservation in our
country right now. And the worst thing we can do is is politicize
it, in my opinion. We need to figure out how to do this
(19:38):
because public lands are so important. I mean, it's like, you know,
for me personally and I know that me and you are not normal that we
like to do this, but, you know, I can't imagine not having any
public lands to go to because that's that's where I go to to scratch my
itch. And, you know, I just got back from a great hike in
the Sumter National Forest. It's managed by the US Forest Service in this
(20:00):
public lands, and I go in and and get to hike and camp
and see what waterfalls and experience stuff, and this is part of
why we're the greatest country in the world is that we set
aside these special places that always connect us to why
we're here. So that's a southerners point of view of why
we need to do this. And I know it's completely different than the West because
(20:23):
I spend a lot of time out West with some friends and do things out
there and and love to go out West, but it's completely different. But it's it
doesn't make it any less important. There can be
no greater cause in conservation in America, and that quote is still
true today over a hundred years later, I think. One thing that
you're that quote reminds me of on the expedition in
(20:46):
Chile, One of the people in the group of course, conservation
was a big topic. That is why we were there. And somebody
had mentioned one of the hardest things about devoting so
much time to conservation, having your whole career in conservation
is that a win is temporary
(21:06):
because you'll have to fight for it again eventually, and a loss is permanent.
If you lose, you lose it forever. And I That's a great
that is so true, though. Yeah. And you've seen that. That's what you're going through
right now, Phil. Your governor is realizing we're
gonna lose these places forever if we don't protect them right now.
Absolutely. And and there's examples in in, you know, East
(21:28):
Coast places of, like, you know, in South Carolina, I love
South Carolina. And anybody who knows me knows that. I love me some South
Carolina. But if we had to do it over again, we
would we would protect and preserve and provide more public beach
access. And And he just got away from us because it's the beach, and everybody
wants to be there. And we had visionary people
(21:50):
who said forty years ago, if we don't save our mountains,
they'll be gone too. And, you know, and I think that, you know,
on a very elementary level, the places that go first are
oceans, mountains, rivers, lakes. And, you
know, and if you don't manage them or protect them,
then more people like me can't go see them. That's right. You know,
(22:12):
I I can't get in there because there's a gate across it, and I gotta
have a membership or I gotta have a big house back there. And and that's
one of the great things about our country is I have access to all these
lands that that are mine because I'm an American, and
that's worth protecting. And we gotta figure out how to do it without
politicizing everything that we do, and I know that's the that's the way we
(22:34):
do things now. But, we gotta figure out a way to do
that because, like you say, you lose, you don't get another
chance. You win, we'll go fight it again five years, ten years,
twenty years, hundred years from now. And what we don't wanna do
is, in our career, come back thirty years and say,
man, I wish we would have protected that piece of land now that's a that's
(22:56):
a gated community that I can't go back and show you this really cool place
anymore because it's a gated community. Nothing against gated
communities, but special places are special places, and that's and
they define who we are. And as Americans and as
Americans, they define what we deem important, and I think that's important too. We
just gotta figure out how to how to do this. And maybe maybe if we
(23:17):
could do this in public lands and conservation, maybe that could be a good
model to help us out on some of these other things that we have problems
getting along with each other on. Oh, Phil, I
if I would have had an American flag next to my desk, I would have
been waving it, well, during that last piece there. That was wonderful.
I think a good example of what Phil's talking about, and maybe this is
(23:39):
not as well known in the East as it is in the West, but the
one place that is held up as, if you're not
fierce about protection, you'll lose it forever, is the Hetch Hetchy Valley.
That is the one that's in the West for conservationists viewed
as that never should have happened. We let that one get away,
and people are still haunted by it today. People like Robert
(24:01):
Hanna are still fighting to get the dam removed in the
Hetch Hetchy Valley restored. And it is it's
amazing the hard work people put in, and I
certainly appreciate it. And this has been a good discussion about public
lands or the politics of public lands because Phil
just summed it up as Phil tends to do in what I've
(24:24):
been grasping for this whole episode is what Phil said. If
we can work together, show the benefit of public lands,
it's not really political. Although, by the
terms of what political is, I guess it is. But the
politics of public lands really is this benefits all of us.
And if you need to if someone's conservation minded, yes, go
(24:46):
that route. If someone's economic minded, yes, go that
route. Show the benefits of it because if we can work together
to protect these wonderful places, well, maybe we can use that same
method to solve other problems as Phil told us. Phil,
as we wind this episode down, do you have any last
words about the politics of public lands? You know, I think
(25:08):
the for us as part professionals and conservation
minded people is get past the noise from
both sides because where real stuff happens is a
little is two or three layers deeper. And it's we generalize so
much now. And so what our role is is to educate people
about, you know, the importance of public lands and not only for
(25:31):
this generation, but for future generations. And all you have to do is look
around our country to say, you know, Hetch Hetchy is a great
example. The beaches on the East Coast,
historic sites in in in places. You know, Gettysburg is I'm
doing some work on battlefield protection now. And one of the things at Gettysburg,
everybody talks about Gettysburg. And the reason Gettysburg is from the
(25:53):
very get go. Everyone said, Gettysburg, this is a
very special place. This is hallowed ground, and let's protect it. And they
protected Gettysburg from day one. I mean, they didn't wait
for I mean, they they knew that what had happened at Gettysburg was so
but thank goodness someone did because time goes by
and it's like we lose these things. And if we lose these things,
(26:16):
we lose a part of us. And I think that's what's important.
And, you know, to to get all those sides, I think you're spot on when
you say, we can't just talk as part people and talk
about these things that that I care about, that I know how to push those
buttons to other part people on. But you gotta sit in a room with a
businessman and say, you know, the economic engine that
(26:37):
these places provide is really important. The quality of
life when you're sitting in with, you know, a representative
from wherever and you go, the quality of life
that these public lands do is why this factory won't it be
here? You know, the public lands that where you you
know, following you, Jody, one of your and I won't get the
(27:00):
place right, so you have to tell me where it is. But one of your
places that you like living where you live is that you routinely
go to a public land with your dog, and that's why you
love living where you live. Right? That's right. Me and my
dog are constantly at public lands. In
this case, the two we visit the most are county
(27:21):
parks. Phil and I have been talking national parks, state
parks. Well, for me personally, in my lifestyle, the
most important parks to me are county parks. So
this goes in all directions. Every piece of public
land is important. Not yes. The big tracks, the
300,000 acre properties are important, but so is the
(27:42):
26 acre county park. Yeah. I think it's hard for
southerners and easterners to even wrap their head around. I was listening
to a report the other day about the controversy of Bears
Ear Bears Ear and, you know, how it's grown and not
but it's like 1,200,000 acres or something like that. You know,
if if you're in on the East Coast, you can't even wrap your head
(28:04):
about how big that is. I mean, that's that's as big as some
states on the Eastern Seaboard. It's so it's you
gotta dig a little bit deeper to understand the complexities of
protecting public land and its benefit and its value. And I don't think
there's any question of how valuable these public
lands are. And one of the things is is go visit go visit
(28:26):
them. And when you walk away, you'll say, man, I I sure am glad
that, you know, Yosemite is protected. The Great Smoky
Mountains is protected, and that Myrtle Beach State Park
is there, and Gettysburg is there, and Valley Forge is
there. And it's, you know, it's these are so important to us, and they define
who we are as a country. And that's what makes us, you know, this
(28:48):
unique thing that that we're, you know, the greatest nation in the
world. And that's part of our fiber, that's part of our makeup. So I think
it's really important. And as as part folks, we need to be
advocates for educating folks in in the importance of
public lands. I got an advanced copy of a
book that comes out this summer about conserving or
(29:09):
conservation in Yellowstone National Park. And it's a
it's fascinating look to say, Yellowstone is
massive. But when we protected it, it
was unprecedented. No one in the world had ever done that.
But we didn't even have a clue what we were
protecting. And now years decades, hundreds of
(29:31):
years later, we realize if we are gonna protect the
bison and the bear and the wolves and the elk, it's not
just the boundaries of this national park. There are some really
there's, like, this whole area around Yellowstone that needs
conserved as well. And I think that's a piece that
ties into what Phil was talking about that in the East, if
(29:54):
you don't protect this wooded lot, well, then it gets
developed. And then maybe you find out that wooded lot
was important for another reason. That's why
Phil said it doesn't matter who protects it just so long as it's protected.
And in our public lands, we're we're talking politics of public
lands on this episode. And sometimes even in
(30:16):
protected properties, you have politics. I can think
of a state park near me where there has
always been politics back and forth between
the mountain bike riding group and the equestrian group.
And their chief aim for both of them is that that
property is protected. And now that it's protected,
(30:39):
let's bicker back and forth about what horses can and can't do and
what bikes can and can't do. But they both want the same thing. They both
want that property protected. And there's so many good stories like that around the
country, Phil. I have one more piece unrelated. You were talking about
how South Carolina didn't protect their beaches as well.
When we're done, get out your old Rand McNally Atlas
(31:01):
and flip through the o's to Oregon and just
look at the coastline in Oregon. It is
just one state park after another all the way down the coast. It's all state
parks. It is incredible. The whole coast. State parks. I do not know
the history about that. I think I should do that research. But
somebody, somewhere along the line, must have said, gosh. Look
(31:23):
what South Carolina did. Let's not do that. It's incredible. I was
two last things. So, like, in South Carolina, Myrtle Beach State Park.
Everybody knows Myrtle Beach. Myrtle Beach State Park, great state park.
Very, very busy people come from all over to come to Myrtle Beach's
pack. One of the most visited parks in South Carolina generates
most revenue all the time, all that kind of good stuff. Myrtle Beach State
(31:46):
Park is 300 acres. So several years ago,
when I was director, we were having discussions with folks, local
folks, about providing more public beach access for South
Carolinians. And the main public beach access points
in that area were Myrtle Beach State Park. And there were
democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, you
(32:08):
know, tree huggers, people who hate tree huggers, all in this one
room together. And so what we we looked at in a in a rare
moment of brilliance, I says, so if if we were doing
this today and everything looked completely different and I came
to y'all and says, we got an opportunity to build a state park here.
And if I said 300 acres, everyone
(32:30):
would probably say, okay. So 300 acres, we can build
access roads and have parking with that 300
acres. What about the rest of the park that protects the shoreline?
So, I mean, 300 acres is what you need for parking at
Myrtle Beach, and it's the entire park. And it's not
because people didn't care. They recognize that because it was it was the
(32:52):
first park in South Carolina by the Civilian Conservation Corps. But it
was like what you were saying when they purchased it. It was in the middle
of nowhere. It's hard to get to, and this is enough. And
then the next thing you know is like, this happens, this happens, this happens,
and then it's gone, and it's too late. So you gotta be
forward thinking. You gotta be visionary. And it's hard to do, but, you
(33:14):
know, leadership is hard. Jody, I I think we've done pretty good
job by not bringing politics into this, and and I
pledged I wouldn't be political. But I'm a tell you that
this fall, I think we should be political, and I'm gonna be political.
And I'm gonna tell I'm gonna tell everybody who I'm voting for.
So during fat bear week, just in the fall, I'm gonna tell
(33:36):
everybody which bear I'm voting for. And if y'all have never voted in fat bear
week, you need to go online and vote for fat bear week, and I'll tell
you who I'm voting for. So that's all the political commentary I'll do on this
podcast ever. I promise. Fat bear week. Oh, I'm
glad you brought fat bear week into this. That is the
best, most fun election you will ever participate
(33:57):
in, and it can get heated, Phil. Some people Oh, yeah, man. Their
strong opinions about their bear. So Fat Bear Week in the
fall. Look for it. Alright. Phil, This was a a great
conversation. I think this is an important topic. I was
going to say right now, but, also, look how old that quote
from Theodore Roosevelt is. This has been an issue for a hundred and
(34:19):
twenty years, and I don't think it's any less important now than when
Theodore Roosevelt said that. Hopefully, Phil and I have given
you some things to think about, some things to discuss
with your fellow park rangers, park professionals
about the politics of public lands and how you can talk
more about them, maybe what you need to know. Because
(34:41):
sometimes that just helps having examples to talk about,
stories to tell, numbers if you need it. Hopefully, Phil and I have
pointed you in that right in the right direction. If you have any questions,
reach out. You can find me at jody, j o d y, at
park leaders dot com. Phil, thank you so much for being here. Again,
this was this was a great conversation. Thanks, Jody. And thank
(35:04):
you for listening to the Park Leaders Show.
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