What if forgiveness wasn’t about letting someone off the hook, but about setting yourself free?
Holding onto anger and resentment can quietly drain your energy, health, and happiness. In this episode, forgiveness coach and best-selling author Katharine Giovanni shares her transformative journey and teaches a step-by-step process to release the emotional weight of past wounds — even the ones that feel impossible to let go of.
By tuning into this episode, you'll discover:
- A practical, step-by-step forgiveness system that starts with the easiest people to forgive and works up to the hardest.
- How unprocessed anger affects your body and mind — and what happens when you finally release it.
- The surprising power of forgiving not just people but the energy around painful memories.
Listen now to start your own forgiveness journey and unlock the freedom and peace that come from letting go of what no longer serves you.
˚
KEY POINTS AND TIMESTAMPS:
02:35 - The Defining Moment That Led to Forgiveness
05:52 - Why Forgiveness Feels Impossible — And How to Start Anyway
10:53 - The Step-by-Step System for Forgiveness
14:13 - The Hidden Costs of Holding Onto Anger
20:12 - Dealing with the Unforgivable and Forgiving Energy
28:41 - Self-Forgiveness and Healing Your Own Past
26:09 - Signs That Forgiveness is Working
32:59 - The Ripple Effect of Forgiveness on the World
˚
MEMORABLE QUOTE:
"You are worthy enough to lead a life of joy. You are worthy enough to lead a life of happiness, and you are worthy enough to make your own decisions and live in love."
˚
VALUABLE RESOURCES:
Katharine's website: https://katharinegiovanni.com
Mastery Seekers Tribe: https://masteryseekerstribe.com
˚
Want to be a guest on Personal Development Mastery?
Send Agi Keramidas a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/personaldevelopmentmastery
˚
Personal development inspiration, insights, and actions to implement for living with purpose.
˚
Personal development, self mastery, and actionable wisdom for personal improvement and living with purpose and fulfilment.
Insights and actionable inspiration to implement for self-mastery, living authentically, living your purpose, cultivating emotional intelligence, building confidence, and living authentically through personal mastery, healthy habits, meditation, mindset shifts, spirituality, wellness, and personal growth - empowering entrepreneurs, leaders, and seekers to embrace happiness and fulfilment.
Join our free community "Mastery Seekers Tribe".
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Agi Keramidas (00:00):
What if forgiveness wasn't about letting
someone off the hook, but aboutsetting yourself free? Welcome
to personal development mastery,the podcast that helps
intelligent, busy professionalsdevelop self mastery and
discover their calling so youcan thrive in a fulfilling,
(00:23):
purposeful life. I'm your host,Agi Keramidas, and this is
episode 486 by listening to thisepisode, you are going to learn
a practical step by stepforgiveness system that starts
with the easiest people toforgive and works up the
(00:44):
hardest, you will also discoverhow unprocessed anger and
sadness affect their body andmind and what happens when you
finally release it, before wedive into the surprising power
of forgiveness. Remember, myfellow mastery seeker. If you
(01:07):
want to go deeper into theepisode, join us at our free
community, the mastery seekerstribe, go to mastery
seekerstribe.com, now let's getstarted today. It is my real
pleasure to speak with KatharineGiovanni. Katharine, you are a
best selling author of 12 books,a speaker trainer and
(01:31):
forgiveness and transformationcoach. You bring wisdom to the
art of forgiveness and unlockingintuition, and you are
passionate about helping peopleheal from past wounds,
especially when it comes toforgiving and forgiveness.
Katharine, welcome to the show.
It's such a pleasure to speakwith you.
Katharine Giovanni (01:52):
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate
it.
Agi Keramidas (01:56):
We will explore today, as I've probably hinted
already by my introduction ofyou forgiveness, in particular,
how to forgive, which is whatyour Anglos makes it so unique.
Before we go there, Katherine,you've been through some
(02:18):
incredibly difficult experiencesin your life, including cancer,
childhood, childhood trauma, wasthere a defining moment that led
you to embrace forgiveness inyour path? The
Katharine Giovanni (02:35):
fact that I call myself a forgiveness coach
probably implies I've had a lotof its opposite in my life.
There's a lot of water underthat bridge, and I probably
started in the eighth grade. Myparents were very pickled
people, meaning they were bothalcoholics, and I was terribly,
terribly bullied in schoolbecause I was different. And so
as a result of all of the all ofthe stress, I tried to commit
(02:58):
suicide, and I turned into oneof those kids, you know, the
kids I'm talking about. And Ijust kind of bobbled through
life until my mother fell down aflight of stairs, broke her hip
and ended up in the hospital,and even my mother couldn't get
a gin and tonic at the hospital,so she dried out and she went to
rehab, and we spent the nextthree years closer than sisters.
(03:21):
We were tight, we forgave eachother, we did everything
together, and then she died ofbreast cancer, which I actually
eventually got in 2012 and Itell a lot of people that if you
look back in your life, you cansee that Flashpoint. I call them
flashpoints, the one day thateverything changed. And some of
us have more than one, but thatwas my flash point, and I
(03:42):
realized right then that if Ididn't change my life, I was
going to die too. And I wasmiserable, I was angry, I was
sick all the time. I had onefriend, so it was the only new
year's resolution I ever kept.
And I quit drinking in 1990 soI've been sober for 35 years,
and one of the things thathappens when you quit drinking
as you go into these programs.
(04:04):
And I was really shy. I'mactually they call me an
extroverted introvert at thispoint, an ambivert, or something
like that. But back then,painfully shy, so I had no
desire to make amends withpeople. If we had had texting, I
would have happily texted thosepeople, no problem. But we
(04:24):
didn't have texting. We didn'teven have computers. That's how
I'm as old as dirt. And so youhad to either call or go see
these people, and they mightyell at me, and I was shy, so I
didn't do any of it. I kind ofplayed along with it, and I kind
of paid it lip service. Therewas no energy behind it, but I
kept doing it, and I kept, youknow, trying saying, you know, I
(04:47):
forgive you, because intuitivelyI knew that the hate and the
anger was what was holding meback, and I wanted to get rid of
it. So I kept doing it, and itwasn't until I eventually went
into the concierge. Industry,and I started to teach concierge
and customer service, but Icould teach you the most
beautiful words in the word,let's say, but if you're angry,
(05:10):
it's going to bleed through yourbody language, whether you
wanted to or not. Unless you'reaward winning actor like George
Clooney or somebody, you're notgoing to be able to stop it. So
I started to teach forgiveness.
And then in 2020 I finallyfigured out the special sauce
that everybody's forgetting, andI came up with a step by step
system. But here's the thing, ona 10 scale, with 10 being
(05:30):
unforgivable, horrific, and onebeing the easiest person in the
world to forgive. Every singleperson listening or watching
this broadcast right now,everybody's thinking of their
number 10, and that's why nobodywants to forgive and that's why
it's so hard, because you'restarting with the person that
hurts you the most. And in myworld, with my system, we're
(05:53):
going the other way. We'restarting with the easy ones, and
we're going to work our way upto the end. It
Agi Keramidas (06:00):
sounds like a very sensible approach, the way
you said, that's great. Let mestart, and we're going to go
into the step by step process.
As you said, one thing I wantedto ask, because having worked
with forgiveness for so long,I'm sure you have noticed some
common misconception that peoplehave about it. So I'm sure there
(06:27):
are. But is there anything thatstrikes out, something that
maybe it will give us a littlebit more of an understanding of
what is not forgiveness, andthen we can move into what it
actually is. Because I wouldalso like to ask your thoughts
on the definition. How do youdefine forgiveness yourself?
Katharine Giovanni (06:53):
I got you just because I forgive you
doesn't mean I want arelationship with you. I
probably don't. Forgivenessdoesn't necessarily mean repair.
I do it for me. I'm doing itbecause it's a selfish act to be
honest. You do it for you. Youdon't do it for them. You know
(07:14):
the person you're mad at. Andthis is especially true in women
with our exes. We want them tobe as miserable as we are. We're
sitting here eating a pint ofBen and Jerry's ice cream, and
they're not thinking about us atall, and they're conducting
their life so Bucha has the mostone of my favorite quotes in the
world, and anger is likedrinking poison and hoping the
other person dies. Here'sanother big one, just because I
(07:38):
forgive you, and this is the onethat chips everybody up, just
because I forgive you doesn'tmean I'm giving in and you're
right all of a sudden, itdoesn't mean I'm weak.
Forgiveness is if you're stillwrong, you still probably have
to make amends of some sort,forgiveness. I'm doing it for
me, and you don't have to reachout to anybody. You can do it in
(08:02):
the privacy of your own home.
That being said, you couldforgive dead people too, because
where they are or are notdoesn't matter a lick. Because
you're in the privacy of yourown home, you don't have to tell
anybody. So the formaldefinition for me personally is
I want you out of my head. Iwant you out of my head. I want
to stop thinking about you. Iwant to stop dreaming about you.
(08:23):
I want to stop telling thestories, and I want to start to
pay attention to something else.
It doesn't mean you are right.
You're probably still doing it,and you're doing it to other
people, and I don't care. I wantyou out of my head. And there's
the other thing that peopleBandy around. There's some
sayings that are just awful, andwhat another one is forgive and
(08:44):
forget. Okay, I'm originallyfrom New York City, and I can
guarantee you I'm not forgettinganything. But what I can promise
you is, by using my system, it'sgoing to remove the emotional
charge, so you're not going tothink good, and you're not going
to think bad, you're not goingto care. I remember I was on
(09:05):
Facebook of a bunch of yearsago, and I saw my ex business
partner's name, and I usuallythat would send me to the
ceiling, and it would take twodays to scrape me off because I
was angry. But on thatparticular day, I stared at the
name, and nothing happened. AndI caught myself, and I realized,
wait a minute, I'm not angry. Idon't care. Even wish you're a
(09:28):
happy birthday. I don't care.
That's freedom, that's peace,and that's what this system,
you'll probably remember, butyou there won't be any emotion
behind it anymore. Thank
Agi Keramidas (09:44):
you. The word freedom that you said is a
wonderful way to conclude whatyou just explained, and I liked
very much how you said it. Iwant you out of my head. Yes,
what I wanted. To ask you, youknow, something like this that
we hold on? Of course, itoccupies our mind. It also as an
(10:10):
extension of that. It influencesour emotions and influences our
mental emotional even all theother things that we don't
necessarily see or are alsoobvious. Can you make a comment
on that as well? I mean, apartfrom having something that one
(10:32):
finds difficult or to forgive,apart from the occupying their
head, what other consequencescould there be end up talking
about something, obviously, thatis, you know, a big one, or
perhaps not the number 10 thatyou said, but let's say over
five,
Katharine Giovanni (10:53):
there's a there's a saying that goes
around the world. Anger istoxic, and none of us, we all
agree with it, but none of usreally know the whys or the
hows. There was a study done,it's called the Japanese water
study, by a guy named, and Ialways say Masumoto, and I know
that's wrong, but it's close,yes. And what he did is he took
two containers of water, andit's, it's a lot more
(11:14):
complicated, but I'm simplifyingit. He one container of water.
All he did was talk to it.
That's it. He just talked to it.
He spoke love to it, the mostbeautiful words of the world,
the other container of water,all he did was spew hate, these
horrible, horrible things. Thepictures are right online.
They're brilliant. And he thenfroze the water, and he put it
under a microscope. The waterthat he that he spoke love to,
(11:38):
had these gorgeous formations,like crystal formations the
water he spoke spewed hate atthe opposite malformations,
black and brown, kind of feedinginto himself. And why am I
bringing up this study, yourbody is 95% water. So if you're
if you're have bad self talk andyou're filled with hatred and
(11:59):
anger, what do you think you'redoing to the water cells within
your own body? You're literallymaking yourself sick. Here's
another visual for you, and foranybody listening to this, I'll
talk you through it, but do goover and watch the visual. I'm
holding a purple coffee cup inmy hand. This coffee cup
represents anger and regret andall those negative emotions, but
(12:22):
look at my body language. I canhandle my anger. I can manage
it. I could still have aconversation with you. I'm still
kind of open. This is easy, butif I don't forgive and let
something out of the cup, it'sgoing to start to affect my
life. Because humans irritateother humans, don't we, and
we're there, something is alwaysgoing to irritate us. So I'm
(12:44):
still putting more stuff intothe cup, right? So now I'm using
two hands to hold up the cup.
It's not exactly affecting mylife, but it's starting to get
into my conversations. It'sstarting to get into my head, if
I continue to not forgive and Icontinue to do this now I'm
holding the cup in front of myface. My life has stopped,
completely stopped. It's all Ican think about. It's all I can
(13:07):
talk about. I'm getting sicknow. I'm probably down to one
friend, and I'm even if I spinthe stories funny, it's still
bothering me. So what is mysystem going to do? I'm going to
have you start with the easypeople, the people you rate are
one, two and three, and what'sthat going to do? It's going to
allow you to put that cup off tothe side. Now my anger is back
on the side. I'm feeling better,and I'm starting to notice and
(13:30):
pay attention more. I'm noticinga money making opportunity or a
new job. I'm noting seeing mydream significant other. I'm
noticing a new way to loseweight. Why didn't I notice it
before? Because I was so payattention to my anger and my
body, because now I'm gettingsick. That's all I could see. I
can't even hear my intuition,because your anger acts like a
(13:52):
block. And there's, it's veryhard to trust your gut or your
intuition if you're angry,because that's all you pay
attention to. So that's, that's,that's a kind of a visual of
what forgiving is going to do,even with the ones, twos and
threes. It's going to allow youto pay attention. It's going to
allow you to breathe again.
Agi Keramidas (14:13):
If you enjoy this episode, can you think of one
person that would find it usefuland share it with them? I'd
really appreciate it. And youwill also be adding value to
people you care about. And nowlet's get back to the episode
that's great. I liked very muchthe visual and the analogy. Can
I ask? Because you mentionedanger, specifically what I
(14:35):
suppose the same would be for,you know, sadness or some sorrow
that we're not forgiving and wefeel like that great. Would you
guide us through then this stepby step process so we can have
an overview and understanding ofhow you approach forgiveness and
(14:59):
how you teach. Toot
Katharine Giovanni (15:00):
Sure. I'm going to have you sit down and
write a list of all the peopleyou think you want to forgive.
And I actually want you to use apen and paper, young people. I
know you want to use your phone.
I get it. I do understand that,but there have been hundreds of
studies done that when somethingenters your brain and it goes
down your arm and you write iton a piece of paper, it sticks.
(15:21):
There was a study done atHarvard University, and they
followed these kids through theyears. Half the class was told
to speak their goals out loud tothe room. The other half was
told to write them down. Theyfollowed the kids, and the kids
who actually wrote their theirgoals down on a pen and paper
were twice as successful as thekids who did not. So write it
(15:41):
down, because it's going tostick more. And I want you to
then rate these people from oneto 1010. Being ugly, horrific,
unforgivable, and I'm going totalk about how to forgive the
unforgivable in a minute. Andone being the easiest, people
like the person who stole yourparking space at the grocery
store yesterday. Come on. Nowyou could forgive that person,
(16:02):
the person who stained yoursweater in high school. Come on.
You could forgive that person.
It was, it was 300 years ago.
You could forgive them. And Iwant you to write your list from
people you do when you were akid all the way to the present
day. Now, if you have sevennumber fives, I don't care.
That's fine. If you don't, ifyou skip a number, that's fine.
I don't care that either. Thewhole point is I want you to
(16:24):
write a list from easiest tohardest, and then I want you to
be alone, and I want you to dosomething crazy. I want you to
turn your phone off. Now, I knowsome of you are twitching at the
thought of turning your cellphone off, but it does have an
off button and it also has amute button. I don't want it to
vibrate, because the minute itdances in your desk, you're
going to look and you're goingto want to see it. I want you
(16:45):
alone with nobody else around,unless you have a dog. You can
have the dog there, but I wantyou alone, right? And I want you
to imagine the person isstanding in front of you, but I
don't want you to imagine themas an adult. I want you to
imagine them as you knew themwhen this problem occurred,
whether you were three years oldor present day. I don't want you
(17:05):
to imagine them as as 2025right? And then I want you to
say whatever you want. Theperson could be alive or dead,
doesn't matter. I want you tosay whatever it is you want to
say, if they're dead, this isyour job. This is your way of
finally getting some closure,and then when you think you're
finished, remember, I want youto start with the number one
person. So you shouldn't have alot of stuff to say, because
(17:27):
this is an easy one. Want you toput your hand into your heart,
because it reminds you to speakfrom your heart. But the words
are just for the for the stupidhumans. It's the energy behind
the words with which is wherethe magic is. And here's the
magic. I get people all the timethat say, Well, I did do the
work, and I did, but they're notstaying forgiven, are they? You
(17:49):
get triggered, and then you getangry again because you see
something or you smellsomething. Well, you didn't
forgive the energy. That's themagic. Einstein clearly proved
that energy is neither creatednor destroyed. It just
transforms from one thing toanother. So your anger energy is
going to linger it around yourbody. We also have discovered,
and Einstein, I think, wasbehind it, that everything has
(18:13):
an energy field around it,including this little silver
microphone. So I'm going to haveyou put your hand in your heart
and say the following, Icompletely forgive Tom. I
forgive the energy around Tom. Icompletely forgive myself.
Hello, I forgive the energyaround myself. I completely
forgive the energy around theentire situation. And so it is
(18:34):
Amen. Go with God and end it anyway you like, and then imagine
that the person walks and walksaway. Now check in with your
body. How do you feel? Do youfeel like they've been forgiven?
Cross them off the list. That'sbrilliant. Were they a number
five level person? Are they nowa four or three? Great. Put the
new number next to them. Wait 24hours, and then do it again. Was
(18:58):
it a number three person, andnow it's jumped up to a nine?
Ooh. Why did that happen? Thatshouldn't happen. We're supposed
to be going the other way. Thebrain is a beautiful, brilliant
tool, and it protects you. Andwhat it did was that back closet
that's been padlocked in theback of your head, well, it just
opened and said, Ooh,Catherine's ready. I'm gonna
(19:19):
flood you with memories youdidn't know was there. So now
you got a new list, becauseyou've got a brand new bunch of
memories that you didn't knowwere there. And now, of course,
you remember all these things.
You're like, Wow, no, I actuallyam kind of angry, so you have to
add some stuff to the list.
Forgiveness is, is like anonion. You're never going to be
done with the damn thing,because you're going to always
remember things, but you'regonna, you're gonna remove some
(19:41):
of those layers. And then I getpeople who say, well, it didn't
work, did we just said and itdidn't work. I love it when
people say that to me, becauseit did work. You just got rid of
the first layer. There's morelayers underneath it. Keep
going. Yeah. Keep going people,but when you get the reason I
(20:02):
want you to do the unforgivablelast is because, my friends,
they are a bear, absolute bear,and that's why we call them the
unforgivable. And I actuallybelieve that there are
unforgivable things in thisworld 100% so if you can't
forgive the person, and you maynot be able to, maybe you can
(20:23):
just forgive the energy aroundthe person. And if you can't
forgive the energy around theperson, well, now let's pick
apart the memory, and here'swhere it's going to get weird.
Stay with me. Going to stretchyour brains a little bit. I
promise it won't hurt too much.
I'll take one of my own memoriesas an example. Let's take the
(20:43):
bullies in school, right? Solet's say I'm driving down the
road, and I usually turn left atthe corner, but this time I
decide to turn right, and thatright turn gets me to work, but
it's going to take me by my oldhigh school, and I was bullied
there, but by the time I get towork, I'm kind of grumpy. I'm
biting everybody's heads off,and I had a perfectly lovely
(21:03):
morning, and I have no idea whyI'm grumpy. Well, I do, because
that movie that plays on theback of your head that you
didn't know was there started toplay, and it remembered the
bullies, and it's bugging you.
So how do you remove thattrigger? You forgive other stuff
within the memory. I couldn'tforgive the bully. Actually, at
the beginning, I couldn't evenforgive the energy around the
(21:24):
bully. I just couldn't and thishappened to me years ago,
decades ago. So I forgave otherthings within the memory. I
started to pick it apart. Iforgave this building, the
energy around the building. Iforgave the table, the desk, the
chair. I forgave the playground.
I forgave the people that stoodaround and didn't help me, and
the energy around all thesethings. So now I've gotten that
(21:46):
number 10, maybe down to a nine,and I have not even touched the
actual person, yet. I'mforgiving other parts of the
memory. I'm dialing it back, andthen you wait 24 hours and maybe
you try it again, but never domore than 10 a night. I want you
to do it at night before you goto bed, because you're going to
be tired after you do it. And ifyou're doing a eight, nine or 10
(22:08):
level person only do one anight, because it's it's going
to make you tired. That's
Agi Keramidas (22:13):
very practical.
The way that you say thank you.
I You said, keep going, and Iunderstand that with your
description, that it is aprocess, and it might involved a
period of time of doing it. Onemight wonder, so how do I know
(22:35):
that it's working? Is there anysign that you know you said
that? We you say it and yourelease the for you forgive the
energy and so on. So you speakthings, and I suppose you mean
you speak them out loud. Ifthat's what I understood, you
Katharine Giovanni (22:52):
can speak it out louder to yourself. You're
alone in a room. It's yourparty. You could scream and cry
or say it in your head. It'sjust as your party. You can do
anything you want. Some peoplecan't imagine the people in
their mind side. So talk to achair. I'm actually not kidding.
Put a chair in front of you andtalk to the chair. If you can
vision the person in your head.
Some people can't talk to thechair. You can even put their
(23:12):
name or their picture on thechair and let them have it.
You're alone. Do whatever youwant. So
Agi Keramidas (23:17):
is there any any sign that it's working while we
are in the process. Yeah,
Katharine Giovanni (23:24):
because you're going to care less and
less. I know that sounds alittle awful, but I actually
mean it. You're going to there.
The emotional charge is going tobe dialed back. It's not going
to bug you as much. You're goingto be able to go on Facebook and
look at their name, and ifthey're a level 10 person, it's
still good excuse my language,but it's still going to piss you
off, but maybe not as much,because if you can get the 10
(23:46):
down to a seven, now it's, it's,it's still there, but you're not
going to, it's not going to bequite as as painful. That's the
sign that you've forgiven them,because you don't care. You
don't care good, you don't care.
Bad. You just don't care. Andanother sign is the reason I
want you to do it before bed isbecause remember about the
(24:09):
Japanese water study and thecells in your body, well, they
have to be cleared. When I do myown I do my own exercises. So I
am my own guinea pig, and cameup with this. And I sat down,
I'm a little bit of anoverachiever. Shocker, and I sat
down and I wrote a list, and Iswear to you, it must have had
been 50 people on it. I had alot of anger in my background.
(24:32):
That's why I can be aforgiveness coach. And I
thought, this is going to begreat. I'm going to forgive
everybody over all at once, andI'm going to be like a phoenix
rising from the ashes. I'm goingto wake up tomorrow morning and
everything's going to be gone,and I'm going to be a completely
different person. Um, no,anybody in the medical field is
(24:53):
probably laughing hystericallyknowing, no, it doesn't work
that way. You can't get a number10 person down to a one
overnight. Ain't. Going tohappen. I did forgive many
people on the list, absolutely,but I also spent the next three
days in bed with what everybodythought was a stomach flu. It
was not the stomach flu, it wasmy body trying to process all
(25:13):
that anger. The reason I wantyou to do this before bed is
because your body is a brillianttool, and it heals you while you
sleep, most people, eight out of10 people, when they do this
process, get really tired. Myolder son gets really tired, so
he we always do it before bed.
Some people feel their shouldersget lighter, which is weird, but
(25:33):
it's true. It's a strangefeeling. Some people feel energy
move from their solar plexus.
And for those who don't know,it's in the middle of your
stomach, above your bellybutton, right there in the
middle. Some people don't feelanything. That doesn't mean it
didn't work. It just means youcleared the first layer, and
there's probably more work todo, and you're not done yet, but
(25:55):
everybody feels something. Andif you're in the bathroom for a
few for a few hours, you didn'tneed a piece of bad fish. It's
because your body is trying toclear ancient, ancient sludge
out of your body. So just behappy.
Agi Keramidas (26:09):
Yes, the word cleansing comes to mind when you
the word Yeah,
Katharine Giovanni (26:13):
a cleanse is not as nice as people say.
Things happen when you do acleanse. It is, I'm just saying,
your body's happy afterwards,but the process is not very
pretty, but neither isforgiveness. I'm asking you to
go back into your past, which isthe last place you want to go.
And I'm only asking you to goback a couple more times,
(26:34):
because I did come from a roughbackground, and I can
regurgitate. I'm using that wordpurposely. I can regurgitate all
those bad things. I can coughthem up for you, if you want me
to. But to be honest, I don'tremember them as much anymore,
because I've forgiven my past.
And it didn't happen overnight.
It took months, and I'veforgiven them. So now I can look
(26:56):
back at my past, and I can seethe adults that were trying to
help that young kid in theeighth grade, I could see the
love that followed me throughthe years that I didn't even
know was there. So now I see thelove that was back there. I
don't remember the hate as much.
So have I changed my past? I'vechanged my perspective? So the
answer is, yeah, I have, becauseI don't remember it as much
(27:16):
anymore. And that's what I canoffer you. That's what this
system is going to do. It'sgoing to offer you freedom and
peace from the from the shadesof your past. Many people call
this shadow work because you'reworking in the shadows. Is it
easy? No, you're going to cry,you're going to laugh, you're
going to be upset. You could doit with a buddy, if you want.
It's a it's a great exercise todo with with somebody. There's
(27:39):
worksheets and stuff in thebook, but please, whoever you do
it with, please make surethey're not on your forgiveness
list. It could get awkward whenyou get to their name, and you
might want to make sure thatthey could keep a secret,
because you're going to beopening up the skeletons in your
closet. So make sure it'ssomebody trustworthy that's not
going to go to social media andstart clicking away.
Agi Keramidas (28:05):
That's That's great. So thank you for the
practicalities that you share.
Catherine, it's always useful.
Before I start concluding thisfascinating conversation, I also
wanted to ask, how much of whatwe have discussed today is
(28:27):
relevant to self forgiveness. Isthere any major difference or
any major similarity that onecould be and that's more of my
own personal curiosity in thequestion.
Katharine Giovanni (28:41):
This is the first book of three. The second
book in this series, which I'mactually writing, as we speak,
is how to forgive yourself,right? It's such an important
topic, I'm devoting a whole bookabout it and the process to
forgive yourself, because quiteoften, when you are making your
list of people you need toforgive, and you rate people as
(29:01):
a number 10, many people findtheir own name up there, 100% so
the process to forgive yourselfis the same process that I
advise other. Advise you to dothe unforgivable people. I want
you to pick apart the memories.
So instead of writing a list ofpeople you need to forgive. When
it comes to yourself, you'rewriting a list of memories.
(29:23):
You're writing a list of peoplethat maybe you have hurt, that
you need to they want you kindof want them to forgive you. And
then I want you to pick apartthe memories. I want you to pick
apart whatever it was and youcan forgive the table, the desk,
the chair. If you can't forgiveyourself, pick apart the memory
the if it's a thing, if it's aChristmas dinner, pick a put you
(29:45):
know, the plate that I have. Iforgive the plate. I forgive the
chair. I forgive my childhoodhome. I forgive the turkey in
the middle. And then wait 24hours and do it again. But,
yeah, forgiving yourself. Selfis, is, is hard, but as you
forgive the easy memories,eventually you'll get to that
hard one and you can you'll beready to pick it apart. Is it
(30:08):
going to make the person you'rethat you want forgiveness from
call you? Probably not, butremember, you're your own
prisoner, and you're the onebeating yourself up like a prize
fighter. So forgiving yourselfis going to free you, and maybe
someday they will forgive you.
(30:30):
Maybe they won't, but you haveto forgive yourself first before
you can do any events.
Agi Keramidas (30:36):
Thank you. I'm glad I asked, because it was a
very interesting point there. Sothank you for that. Catherine,
where do you want to direct ourlisteners, the mastery seeker
that wants to find out moreabout this fascinating talk?
Katharine Giovanni (30:55):
Well, my books can be found on Amazon,
and for my forgiveness book,which is the ultimate path to
forgiveness, unlocking yourpower. That's on Amazon. And I
do have the paper, book, ebookand the audiobook available,
because I know not everybodywants to read. You could also go
to my website where everythingis and it's Catherine
giovanni.com and my first name,thanks to my mother, is spelled
a little bit odd, thanks, mom.
And it's K, A, T, H, A, R, I N,A giovanni.com you
Agi Keramidas (31:20):
that's great. The upside from for that Catherine,
I know, because I also have adifficult spell name for, you
know, English speaking people,is that it's quite unique. So
there is not another one. It'syou can't be confused with
(31:43):
another. I suppose the same goeswith your name. There is no one.
So
Katharine Giovanni (31:48):
there are few. There are a few Catherine
spelled my way, that I've runinto, but we are, we are rare. I
mean, I could, I could start asupport group.
Agi Keramidas (32:00):
That's great.
Catherine, I have two finalquick questions I also want to
ask you, and the first one is,what does personal development
mean to you?
Katharine Giovanni (32:14):
Personal development means to me, and
I've been doing it for years. Itmeans I want to be free. I have
listened very respectfully tothe teachers of my youth, and I
listened very respectfully to myparents. And the one thing and
I'm in my 60s now, and the onething that I can tell you for
(32:35):
sure is some of them were wrong,hello, and so personal mastery
and personal development meansto me is I'm finally able to
hear that little bird on myshoulder, and I'm finally able
to walk that road to wherever itis I'm supposed to go. And I'm
now finding teachers that Iidentify with, and I'm finding
(32:56):
books that I identify with, andI'm kind of teaching myself
that's kind of how I've learnedeverything. So you're literally
everything you need to know isalready inside of you. You just
have to move what you've learnedout of the way. Don't let what
you have learned get in the wayof what you can learn.
Agi Keramidas (33:18):
Nicely said and hypothetically speaking, if you
could go back in time and meetyour 18 year old self, what's
one piece of advice you wouldgive her?
Katharine Giovanni (33:30):
I think I would tell her that you are
worthy. You are worthy enough tolead a life of joy. You are
worthy enough to lead a life ofhappiness, and you are worthy
enough to make your owndecisions and live in love.
Catherine,
Agi Keramidas (33:44):
I want to thank you so much for this insightful
conversation, and of course, towish you the very best with your
mission continuing what you'redoing. I will leave it to you
for your parting words or someactionable wisdom for the
listeners.
Katharine Giovanni (34:06):
I just want people to know that there is
hope for humanity. There reallyis. And if we could all forgive,
even the easy ones, where let'sjust ignore the unforgivable,
because we all have it, and youcould forgive anything. You can
forgive politicians. Dare I sayyou could forgive the war in the
Middle East. Not going to doanything for the war in the
(34:28):
Middle East, but it's going todo a lot for us. And the more we
forgive, the better our world isgoing to be. So I would
encourage everybody, even if youdon't have anybody, to forgive.
Just say, I completely forgivemyself for not being able to
forgive. And the energy aroundthis thought, say it three times
a night for the next week, andmagic will happen. Forgiveness
(34:51):
really, really is a magic. It'skind of like a superpower, and
your life is going to change.
Agi Keramidas (34:57):
You. I hope you have found this episode
enlightening, and I ask for onesimple, quick favor, if you like
this podcast, think of someoneelse you know who might find it
useful and share it with them bydoing so you'll not only help
(35:17):
the podcast grow, but also addvalue to people you care about.
So thank you. And until nexttime, stand out, don't fit in.
What if forgiveness wasn't about letting
someone off the hook, but aboutsetting yourself free? Welcome
to personal development mastery,the podcast that helps
intelligent, busy professionalsdevelop self mastery and
discover their calling so youcan thrive in a fulfilling,
(00:23):
purposeful life. I'm your host,Agi Keramidas, and this is
episode 486 by listening to thisepisode, you are going to learn
a practical step by stepforgiveness system that starts
with the easiest people toforgive and works up the
(00:44):
hardest, you will also discoverhow unprocessed anger and
sadness affect their body andmind and what happens when you
finally release it, before wedive into the surprising power
of forgiveness. Remember, myfellow mastery seeker. If you
(01:07):
want to go deeper into theepisode, join us at our free
community, the mastery seekerstribe, go to mastery
seekerstribe.com, now let's getstarted today. It is my real
pleasure to speak with KatharineGiovanni. Katharine, you are a
best selling author of 12 books,a speaker trainer and
(01:31):
forgiveness and transformationcoach. You bring wisdom to the
art of forgiveness and unlockingintuition, and you are
passionate about helping peopleheal from past wounds,
especially when it comes toforgiving and forgiveness.
Katharine, welcome to the show.
It's such a pleasure to speakwith you.
Katharine Giovanni (01:52):
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate
it.
Agi Keramidas (01:56):
We will explore today, as I've probably hinted
already by my introduction ofyou forgiveness, in particular,
how to forgive, which is whatyour Anglos makes it so unique.
Before we go there, Katherine,you've been through some
(02:18):
incredibly difficult experiencesin your life, including cancer,
childhood, childhood trauma, wasthere a defining moment that led
you to embrace forgiveness inyour path? The
Katharine Giovanni (02:35):
fact that I call myself a forgiveness coach
probably implies I've had a lotof its opposite in my life.
There's a lot of water underthat bridge, and I probably
started in the eighth grade. Myparents were very pickled
people, meaning they were bothalcoholics, and I was terribly,
terribly bullied in schoolbecause I was different. And so
as a result of all of the all ofthe stress, I tried to commit
(02:58):
suicide, and I turned into oneof those kids, you know, the
kids I'm talking about. And Ijust kind of bobbled through
life until my mother fell down aflight of stairs, broke her hip
and ended up in the hospital,and even my mother couldn't get
a gin and tonic at the hospital,so she dried out and she went to
rehab, and we spent the nextthree years closer than sisters.
(03:21):
We were tight, we forgave eachother, we did everything
together, and then she died ofbreast cancer, which I actually
eventually got in 2012 and Itell a lot of people that if you
look back in your life, you cansee that Flashpoint. I call them
flashpoints, the one day thateverything changed. And some of
us have more than one, but thatwas my flash point, and I
(03:42):
realized right then that if Ididn't change my life, I was
going to die too. And I wasmiserable, I was angry, I was
sick all the time. I had onefriend, so it was the only new
year's resolution I ever kept.
And I quit drinking in 1990 soI've been sober for 35 years,
and one of the things thathappens when you quit drinking
as you go into these programs.
(04:04):
And I was really shy. I'mactually they call me an
extroverted introvert at thispoint, an ambivert, or something
like that. But back then,painfully shy, so I had no
desire to make amends withpeople. If we had had texting, I
would have happily texted thosepeople, no problem. But we
(04:24):
didn't have texting. We didn'teven have computers. That's how
I'm as old as dirt. And so youhad to either call or go see
these people, and they mightyell at me, and I was shy, so I
didn't do any of it. I kind ofplayed along with it, and I kind
of paid it lip service. Therewas no energy behind it, but I
kept doing it, and I kept, youknow, trying saying, you know, I
(04:47):
forgive you, because intuitivelyI knew that the hate and the
anger was what was holding meback, and I wanted to get rid of
it. So I kept doing it, and itwasn't until I eventually went
into the concierge. Industry,and I started to teach concierge
and customer service, but Icould teach you the most
beautiful words in the word,let's say, but if you're angry,
(05:10):
it's going to bleed through yourbody language, whether you
wanted to or not. Unless you'reaward winning actor like George
Clooney or somebody, you're notgoing to be able to stop it. So
I started to teach forgiveness.
And then in 2020 I finallyfigured out the special sauce
that everybody's forgetting, andI came up with a step by step
system. But here's the thing, ona 10 scale, with 10 being
(05:30):
unforgivable, horrific, and onebeing the easiest person in the
world to forgive. Every singleperson listening or watching
this broadcast right now,everybody's thinking of their
number 10, and that's why nobodywants to forgive and that's why
it's so hard, because you'restarting with the person that
hurts you the most. And in myworld, with my system, we're
(05:53):
going the other way. We'restarting with the easy ones, and
we're going to work our way upto the end. It
Agi Keramidas (06:00):
sounds like a very sensible approach, the way
you said, that's great. Let mestart, and we're going to go
into the step by step process.
As you said, one thing I wantedto ask, because having worked
with forgiveness for so long,I'm sure you have noticed some
common misconception that peoplehave about it. So I'm sure there
(06:27):
are. But is there anything thatstrikes out, something that
maybe it will give us a littlebit more of an understanding of
what is not forgiveness, andthen we can move into what it
actually is. Because I wouldalso like to ask your thoughts
on the definition. How do youdefine forgiveness yourself?
Katharine Giovanni (06:53):
I got you just because I forgive you
doesn't mean I want arelationship with you. I
probably don't. Forgivenessdoesn't necessarily mean repair.
I do it for me. I'm doing itbecause it's a selfish act to be
honest. You do it for you. Youdon't do it for them. You know
(07:14):
the person you're mad at. Andthis is especially true in women
with our exes. We want them tobe as miserable as we are. We're
sitting here eating a pint ofBen and Jerry's ice cream, and
they're not thinking about us atall, and they're conducting
their life so Bucha has the mostone of my favorite quotes in the
world, and anger is likedrinking poison and hoping the
other person dies. Here'sanother big one, just because I
(07:38):
forgive you, and this is the onethat chips everybody up, just
because I forgive you doesn'tmean I'm giving in and you're
right all of a sudden, itdoesn't mean I'm weak.
Forgiveness is if you're stillwrong, you still probably have
to make amends of some sort,forgiveness. I'm doing it for
me, and you don't have to reachout to anybody. You can do it in
(08:02):
the privacy of your own home.
That being said, you couldforgive dead people too, because
where they are or are notdoesn't matter a lick. Because
you're in the privacy of yourown home, you don't have to tell
anybody. So the formaldefinition for me personally is
I want you out of my head. Iwant you out of my head. I want
to stop thinking about you. Iwant to stop dreaming about you.
(08:23):
I want to stop telling thestories, and I want to start to
pay attention to something else.
It doesn't mean you are right.
You're probably still doing it,and you're doing it to other
people, and I don't care. I wantyou out of my head. And there's
the other thing that peopleBandy around. There's some
sayings that are just awful, andwhat another one is forgive and
(08:44):
forget. Okay, I'm originallyfrom New York City, and I can
guarantee you I'm not forgettinganything. But what I can promise
you is, by using my system, it'sgoing to remove the emotional
charge, so you're not going tothink good, and you're not going
to think bad, you're not goingto care. I remember I was on
(09:05):
Facebook of a bunch of yearsago, and I saw my ex business
partner's name, and I usuallythat would send me to the
ceiling, and it would take twodays to scrape me off because I
was angry. But on thatparticular day, I stared at the
name, and nothing happened. AndI caught myself, and I realized,
wait a minute, I'm not angry. Idon't care. Even wish you're a
(09:28):
happy birthday. I don't care.
That's freedom, that's peace,and that's what this system,
you'll probably remember, butyou there won't be any emotion
behind it anymore. Thank
Agi Keramidas (09:44):
you. The word freedom that you said is a
wonderful way to conclude whatyou just explained, and I liked
very much how you said it. Iwant you out of my head. Yes,
what I wanted. To ask you, youknow, something like this that
we hold on? Of course, itoccupies our mind. It also as an
(10:10):
extension of that. It influencesour emotions and influences our
mental emotional even all theother things that we don't
necessarily see or are alsoobvious. Can you make a comment
on that as well? I mean, apartfrom having something that one
(10:32):
finds difficult or to forgive,apart from the occupying their
head, what other consequencescould there be end up talking
about something, obviously, thatis, you know, a big one, or
perhaps not the number 10 thatyou said, but let's say over
five,
Katharine Giovanni (10:53):
there's a there's a saying that goes
around the world. Anger istoxic, and none of us, we all
agree with it, but none of usreally know the whys or the
hows. There was a study done,it's called the Japanese water
study, by a guy named, and Ialways say Masumoto, and I know
that's wrong, but it's close,yes. And what he did is he took
two containers of water, andit's, it's a lot more
(11:14):
complicated, but I'm simplifyingit. He one container of water.
All he did was talk to it.
That's it. He just talked to it.
He spoke love to it, the mostbeautiful words of the world,
the other container of water,all he did was spew hate, these
horrible, horrible things. Thepictures are right online.
They're brilliant. And he thenfroze the water, and he put it
under a microscope. The waterthat he that he spoke love to,
(11:38):
had these gorgeous formations,like crystal formations the
water he spoke spewed hate atthe opposite malformations,
black and brown, kind of feedinginto himself. And why am I
bringing up this study, yourbody is 95% water. So if you're
if you're have bad self talk andyou're filled with hatred and
(11:59):
anger, what do you think you'redoing to the water cells within
your own body? You're literallymaking yourself sick. Here's
another visual for you, and foranybody listening to this, I'll
talk you through it, but do goover and watch the visual. I'm
holding a purple coffee cup inmy hand. This coffee cup
represents anger and regret andall those negative emotions, but
(12:22):
look at my body language. I canhandle my anger. I can manage
it. I could still have aconversation with you. I'm still
kind of open. This is easy, butif I don't forgive and let
something out of the cup, it'sgoing to start to affect my
life. Because humans irritateother humans, don't we, and
we're there, something is alwaysgoing to irritate us. So I'm
(12:44):
still putting more stuff intothe cup, right? So now I'm using
two hands to hold up the cup.
It's not exactly affecting mylife, but it's starting to get
into my conversations. It'sstarting to get into my head, if
I continue to not forgive and Icontinue to do this now I'm
holding the cup in front of myface. My life has stopped,
completely stopped. It's all Ican think about. It's all I can
(13:07):
talk about. I'm getting sicknow. I'm probably down to one
friend, and I'm even if I spinthe stories funny, it's still
bothering me. So what is mysystem going to do? I'm going to
have you start with the easypeople, the people you rate are
one, two and three, and what'sthat going to do? It's going to
allow you to put that cup off tothe side. Now my anger is back
on the side. I'm feeling better,and I'm starting to notice and
(13:30):
pay attention more. I'm noticinga money making opportunity or a
new job. I'm noting seeing mydream significant other. I'm
noticing a new way to loseweight. Why didn't I notice it
before? Because I was so payattention to my anger and my
body, because now I'm gettingsick. That's all I could see. I
can't even hear my intuition,because your anger acts like a
(13:52):
block. And there's, it's veryhard to trust your gut or your
intuition if you're angry,because that's all you pay
attention to. So that's, that's,that's a kind of a visual of
what forgiving is going to do,even with the ones, twos and
threes. It's going to allow youto pay attention. It's going to
allow you to breathe again.
Agi Keramidas (14:13):
If you enjoy this episode, can you think of one
person that would find it usefuland share it with them? I'd
really appreciate it. And youwill also be adding value to
people you care about. And nowlet's get back to the episode
that's great. I liked very muchthe visual and the analogy. Can
I ask? Because you mentionedanger, specifically what I
(14:35):
suppose the same would be for,you know, sadness or some sorrow
that we're not forgiving and wefeel like that great. Would you
guide us through then this stepby step process so we can have
an overview and understanding ofhow you approach forgiveness and
(14:59):
how you teach. Toot
Katharine Giovanni (15:00):
Sure. I'm going to have you sit down and
write a list of all the peopleyou think you want to forgive.
And I actually want you to use apen and paper, young people. I
know you want to use your phone.
I get it. I do understand that,but there have been hundreds of
studies done that when somethingenters your brain and it goes
down your arm and you write iton a piece of paper, it sticks.
(15:21):
There was a study done atHarvard University, and they
followed these kids through theyears. Half the class was told
to speak their goals out loud tothe room. The other half was
told to write them down. Theyfollowed the kids, and the kids
who actually wrote their theirgoals down on a pen and paper
were twice as successful as thekids who did not. So write it
(15:41):
down, because it's going tostick more. And I want you to
then rate these people from oneto 1010. Being ugly, horrific,
unforgivable, and I'm going totalk about how to forgive the
unforgivable in a minute. Andone being the easiest, people
like the person who stole yourparking space at the grocery
store yesterday. Come on. Nowyou could forgive that person,
(16:02):
the person who stained yoursweater in high school. Come on.
You could forgive that person.
It was, it was 300 years ago.
You could forgive them. And Iwant you to write your list from
people you do when you were akid all the way to the present
day. Now, if you have sevennumber fives, I don't care.
That's fine. If you don't, ifyou skip a number, that's fine.
I don't care that either. Thewhole point is I want you to
(16:24):
write a list from easiest tohardest, and then I want you to
be alone, and I want you to dosomething crazy. I want you to
turn your phone off. Now, I knowsome of you are twitching at the
thought of turning your cellphone off, but it does have an
off button and it also has amute button. I don't want it to
vibrate, because the minute itdances in your desk, you're
going to look and you're goingto want to see it. I want you
(16:45):
alone with nobody else around,unless you have a dog. You can
have the dog there, but I wantyou alone, right? And I want you
to imagine the person isstanding in front of you, but I
don't want you to imagine themas an adult. I want you to
imagine them as you knew themwhen this problem occurred,
whether you were three years oldor present day. I don't want you
(17:05):
to imagine them as as 2025right? And then I want you to
say whatever you want. Theperson could be alive or dead,
doesn't matter. I want you tosay whatever it is you want to
say, if they're dead, this isyour job. This is your way of
finally getting some closure,and then when you think you're
finished, remember, I want youto start with the number one
person. So you shouldn't have alot of stuff to say, because
(17:27):
this is an easy one. Want you toput your hand into your heart,
because it reminds you to speakfrom your heart. But the words
are just for the for the stupidhumans. It's the energy behind
the words with which is wherethe magic is. And here's the
magic. I get people all the timethat say, Well, I did do the
work, and I did, but they're notstaying forgiven, are they? You
(17:49):
get triggered, and then you getangry again because you see
something or you smellsomething. Well, you didn't
forgive the energy. That's themagic. Einstein clearly proved
that energy is neither creatednor destroyed. It just
transforms from one thing toanother. So your anger energy is
going to linger it around yourbody. We also have discovered,
and Einstein, I think, wasbehind it, that everything has
(18:13):
an energy field around it,including this little silver
microphone. So I'm going to haveyou put your hand in your heart
and say the following, Icompletely forgive Tom. I
forgive the energy around Tom. Icompletely forgive myself.
Hello, I forgive the energyaround myself. I completely
forgive the energy around theentire situation. And so it is
(18:34):
Amen. Go with God and end it anyway you like, and then imagine
that the person walks and walksaway. Now check in with your
body. How do you feel? Do youfeel like they've been forgiven?
Cross them off the list. That'sbrilliant. Were they a number
five level person? Are they nowa four or three? Great. Put the
new number next to them. Wait 24hours, and then do it again. Was
(18:58):
it a number three person, andnow it's jumped up to a nine?
Ooh. Why did that happen? Thatshouldn't happen. We're supposed
to be going the other way. Thebrain is a beautiful, brilliant
tool, and it protects you. Andwhat it did was that back closet
that's been padlocked in theback of your head, well, it just
opened and said, Ooh,Catherine's ready. I'm gonna
(19:19):
flood you with memories youdidn't know was there. So now
you got a new list, becauseyou've got a brand new bunch of
memories that you didn't knowwere there. And now, of course,
you remember all these things.
You're like, Wow, no, I actuallyam kind of angry, so you have to
add some stuff to the list.
Forgiveness is, is like anonion. You're never going to be
done with the damn thing,because you're going to always
remember things, but you'regonna, you're gonna remove some
(19:41):
of those layers. And then I getpeople who say, well, it didn't
work, did we just said and itdidn't work. I love it when
people say that to me, becauseit did work. You just got rid of
the first layer. There's morelayers underneath it. Keep
going. Yeah. Keep going people,but when you get the reason I
(20:02):
want you to do the unforgivablelast is because, my friends,
they are a bear, absolute bear,and that's why we call them the
unforgivable. And I actuallybelieve that there are
unforgivable things in thisworld 100% so if you can't
forgive the person, and you maynot be able to, maybe you can
(20:23):
just forgive the energy aroundthe person. And if you can't
forgive the energy around theperson, well, now let's pick
apart the memory, and here'swhere it's going to get weird.
Stay with me. Going to stretchyour brains a little bit. I
promise it won't hurt too much.
I'll take one of my own memoriesas an example. Let's take the
(20:43):
bullies in school, right? Solet's say I'm driving down the
road, and I usually turn left atthe corner, but this time I
decide to turn right, and thatright turn gets me to work, but
it's going to take me by my oldhigh school, and I was bullied
there, but by the time I get towork, I'm kind of grumpy. I'm
biting everybody's heads off,and I had a perfectly lovely
(21:03):
morning, and I have no idea whyI'm grumpy. Well, I do, because
that movie that plays on theback of your head that you
didn't know was there started toplay, and it remembered the
bullies, and it's bugging you.
So how do you remove thattrigger? You forgive other stuff
within the memory. I couldn'tforgive the bully. Actually, at
the beginning, I couldn't evenforgive the energy around the
(21:24):
bully. I just couldn't and thishappened to me years ago,
decades ago. So I forgave otherthings within the memory. I
started to pick it apart. Iforgave this building, the
energy around the building. Iforgave the table, the desk, the
chair. I forgave the playground.
I forgave the people that stoodaround and didn't help me, and
the energy around all thesethings. So now I've gotten that
(21:46):
number 10, maybe down to a nine,and I have not even touched the
actual person, yet. I'mforgiving other parts of the
memory. I'm dialing it back, andthen you wait 24 hours and maybe
you try it again, but never domore than 10 a night. I want you
to do it at night before you goto bed, because you're going to
be tired after you do it. And ifyou're doing a eight, nine or 10
(22:08):
level person only do one anight, because it's it's going
to make you tired. That's
Agi Keramidas (22:13):
very practical.
The way that you say thank you.
I You said, keep going, and Iunderstand that with your
description, that it is aprocess, and it might involved a
period of time of doing it. Onemight wonder, so how do I know
(22:35):
that it's working? Is there anysign that you know you said
that? We you say it and yourelease the for you forgive the
energy and so on. So you speakthings, and I suppose you mean
you speak them out loud. Ifthat's what I understood, you
Katharine Giovanni (22:52):
can speak it out louder to yourself. You're
alone in a room. It's yourparty. You could scream and cry
or say it in your head. It'sjust as your party. You can do
anything you want. Some peoplecan't imagine the people in
their mind side. So talk to achair. I'm actually not kidding.
Put a chair in front of you andtalk to the chair. If you can
vision the person in your head.
Some people can't talk to thechair. You can even put their
(23:12):
name or their picture on thechair and let them have it.
You're alone. Do whatever youwant. So
Agi Keramidas (23:17):
is there any any sign that it's working while we
are in the process. Yeah,
Katharine Giovanni (23:24):
because you're going to care less and
less. I know that sounds alittle awful, but I actually
mean it. You're going to there.
The emotional charge is going tobe dialed back. It's not going
to bug you as much. You're goingto be able to go on Facebook and
look at their name, and ifthey're a level 10 person, it's
still good excuse my language,but it's still going to piss you
off, but maybe not as much,because if you can get the 10
(23:46):
down to a seven, now it's, it's,it's still there, but you're not
going to, it's not going to bequite as as painful. That's the
sign that you've forgiven them,because you don't care. You
don't care good, you don't care.
Bad. You just don't care. Andanother sign is the reason I
want you to do it before bed isbecause remember about the
(24:09):
Japanese water study and thecells in your body, well, they
have to be cleared. When I do myown I do my own exercises. So I
am my own guinea pig, and cameup with this. And I sat down,
I'm a little bit of anoverachiever. Shocker, and I sat
down and I wrote a list, and Iswear to you, it must have had
been 50 people on it. I had alot of anger in my background.
(24:32):
That's why I can be aforgiveness coach. And I
thought, this is going to begreat. I'm going to forgive
everybody over all at once, andI'm going to be like a phoenix
rising from the ashes. I'm goingto wake up tomorrow morning and
everything's going to be gone,and I'm going to be a completely
different person. Um, no,anybody in the medical field is
(24:53):
probably laughing hystericallyknowing, no, it doesn't work
that way. You can't get a number10 person down to a one
overnight. Ain't. Going tohappen. I did forgive many
people on the list, absolutely,but I also spent the next three
days in bed with what everybodythought was a stomach flu. It
was not the stomach flu, it wasmy body trying to process all
(25:13):
that anger. The reason I wantyou to do this before bed is
because your body is a brillianttool, and it heals you while you
sleep, most people, eight out of10 people, when they do this
process, get really tired. Myolder son gets really tired, so
he we always do it before bed.
Some people feel their shouldersget lighter, which is weird, but
(25:33):
it's true. It's a strangefeeling. Some people feel energy
move from their solar plexus.
And for those who don't know,it's in the middle of your
stomach, above your bellybutton, right there in the
middle. Some people don't feelanything. That doesn't mean it
didn't work. It just means youcleared the first layer, and
there's probably more work todo, and you're not done yet, but
(25:55):
everybody feels something. Andif you're in the bathroom for a
few for a few hours, you didn'tneed a piece of bad fish. It's
because your body is trying toclear ancient, ancient sludge
out of your body. So just behappy.
Agi Keramidas (26:09):
Yes, the word cleansing comes to mind when you
the word Yeah,
Katharine Giovanni (26:13):
a cleanse is not as nice as people say.
Things happen when you do acleanse. It is, I'm just saying,
your body's happy afterwards,but the process is not very
pretty, but neither isforgiveness. I'm asking you to
go back into your past, which isthe last place you want to go.
And I'm only asking you to goback a couple more times,
(26:34):
because I did come from a roughbackground, and I can
regurgitate. I'm using that wordpurposely. I can regurgitate all
those bad things. I can coughthem up for you, if you want me
to. But to be honest, I don'tremember them as much anymore,
because I've forgiven my past.
And it didn't happen overnight.
It took months, and I'veforgiven them. So now I can look
(26:56):
back at my past, and I can seethe adults that were trying to
help that young kid in theeighth grade, I could see the
love that followed me throughthe years that I didn't even
know was there. So now I see thelove that was back there. I
don't remember the hate as much.
So have I changed my past? I'vechanged my perspective? So the
answer is, yeah, I have, becauseI don't remember it as much
(27:16):
anymore. And that's what I canoffer you. That's what this
system is going to do. It'sgoing to offer you freedom and
peace from the from the shadesof your past. Many people call
this shadow work because you'reworking in the shadows. Is it
easy? No, you're going to cry,you're going to laugh, you're
going to be upset. You could doit with a buddy, if you want.
It's a it's a great exercise todo with with somebody. There's
(27:39):
worksheets and stuff in thebook, but please, whoever you do
it with, please make surethey're not on your forgiveness
list. It could get awkward whenyou get to their name, and you
might want to make sure thatthey could keep a secret,
because you're going to beopening up the skeletons in your
closet. So make sure it'ssomebody trustworthy that's not
going to go to social media andstart clicking away.
Agi Keramidas (28:05):
That's That's great. So thank you for the
practicalities that you share.
Catherine, it's always useful.
Before I start concluding thisfascinating conversation, I also
wanted to ask, how much of whatwe have discussed today is
(28:27):
relevant to self forgiveness. Isthere any major difference or
any major similarity that onecould be and that's more of my
own personal curiosity in thequestion.
Katharine Giovanni (28:41):
This is the first book of three. The second
book in this series, which I'mactually writing, as we speak,
is how to forgive yourself,right? It's such an important
topic, I'm devoting a whole bookabout it and the process to
forgive yourself, because quiteoften, when you are making your
list of people you need toforgive, and you rate people as
(29:01):
a number 10, many people findtheir own name up there, 100% so
the process to forgive yourselfis the same process that I
advise other. Advise you to dothe unforgivable people. I want
you to pick apart the memories.
So instead of writing a list ofpeople you need to forgive. When
it comes to yourself, you'rewriting a list of memories.
(29:23):
You're writing a list of peoplethat maybe you have hurt, that
you need to they want you kindof want them to forgive you. And
then I want you to pick apartthe memories. I want you to pick
apart whatever it was and youcan forgive the table, the desk,
the chair. If you can't forgiveyourself, pick apart the memory
the if it's a thing, if it's aChristmas dinner, pick a put you
(29:45):
know, the plate that I have. Iforgive the plate. I forgive the
chair. I forgive my childhoodhome. I forgive the turkey in
the middle. And then wait 24hours and do it again. But,
yeah, forgiving yourself. Selfis, is, is hard, but as you
forgive the easy memories,eventually you'll get to that
hard one and you can you'll beready to pick it apart. Is it
(30:08):
going to make the person you'rethat you want forgiveness from
call you? Probably not, butremember, you're your own
prisoner, and you're the onebeating yourself up like a prize
fighter. So forgiving yourselfis going to free you, and maybe
someday they will forgive you.
(30:30):
Maybe they won't, but you haveto forgive yourself first before
you can do any events.
Agi Keramidas (30:36):
Thank you. I'm glad I asked, because it was a
very interesting point there. Sothank you for that. Catherine,
where do you want to direct ourlisteners, the mastery seeker
that wants to find out moreabout this fascinating talk?
Katharine Giovanni (30:55):
Well, my books can be found on Amazon,
and for my forgiveness book,which is the ultimate path to
forgiveness, unlocking yourpower. That's on Amazon. And I
do have the paper, book, ebookand the audiobook available,
because I know not everybodywants to read. You could also go
to my website where everythingis and it's Catherine
giovanni.com and my first name,thanks to my mother, is spelled
a little bit odd, thanks, mom.
And it's K, A, T, H, A, R, I N,A giovanni.com you
Agi Keramidas (31:20):
that's great. The upside from for that Catherine,
I know, because I also have adifficult spell name for, you
know, English speaking people,is that it's quite unique. So
there is not another one. It'syou can't be confused with
(31:43):
another. I suppose the same goeswith your name. There is no one.
So
Katharine Giovanni (31:48):
there are few. There are a few Catherine
spelled my way, that I've runinto, but we are, we are rare. I
mean, I could, I could start asupport group.
Agi Keramidas (32:00):
That's great.
Catherine, I have two finalquick questions I also want to
ask you, and the first one is,what does personal development
mean to you?
Katharine Giovanni (32:14):
Personal development means to me, and
I've been doing it for years. Itmeans I want to be free. I have
listened very respectfully tothe teachers of my youth, and I
listened very respectfully to myparents. And the one thing and
I'm in my 60s now, and the onething that I can tell you for
(32:35):
sure is some of them were wrong,hello, and so personal mastery
and personal development meansto me is I'm finally able to
hear that little bird on myshoulder, and I'm finally able
to walk that road to wherever itis I'm supposed to go. And I'm
now finding teachers that Iidentify with, and I'm finding
(32:56):
books that I identify with, andI'm kind of teaching myself
that's kind of how I've learnedeverything. So you're literally
everything you need to know isalready inside of you. You just
have to move what you've learnedout of the way. Don't let what
you have learned get in the wayof what you can learn.
Agi Keramidas (33:18):
Nicely said and hypothetically speaking, if you
could go back in time and meetyour 18 year old self, what's
one piece of advice you wouldgive her?
Katharine Giovanni (33:30):
I think I would tell her that you are
worthy. You are worthy enough tolead a life of joy. You are
worthy enough to lead a life ofhappiness, and you are worthy
enough to make your owndecisions and live in love.
Catherine,
Agi Keramidas (33:44):
I want to thank you so much for this insightful
conversation, and of course, towish you the very best with your
mission continuing what you'redoing. I will leave it to you
for your parting words or someactionable wisdom for the
listeners.
Katharine Giovanni (34:06):
I just want people to know that there is
hope for humanity. There reallyis. And if we could all forgive,
even the easy ones, where let'sjust ignore the unforgivable,
because we all have it, and youcould forgive anything. You can
forgive politicians. Dare I sayyou could forgive the war in the
Middle East. Not going to doanything for the war in the
(34:28):
Middle East, but it's going todo a lot for us. And the more we
forgive, the better our world isgoing to be. So I would
encourage everybody, even if youdon't have anybody, to forgive.
Just say, I completely forgivemyself for not being able to
forgive. And the energy aroundthis thought, say it three times
a night for the next week, andmagic will happen. Forgiveness
(34:51):
really, really is a magic. It'skind of like a superpower, and
your life is going to change.
Agi Keramidas (34:57):
You. I hope you have found this episode
enlightening, and I ask for onesimple, quick favor, if you like
this podcast, think of someoneelse you know who might find it
useful and share it with them bydoing so you'll not only help
(35:17):
the podcast grow, but also addvalue to people you care about.
So thank you. And until nexttime, stand out, don't fit in.
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