What if the key to mastering life isn’t about doing more, but interfering less? Discover the wisdom of ancient Taoist teachings and modern mindfulness to navigate life’s chaos with clarity, humour, and ease.
In a world that constantly demands hustle and relentless action, many of us feel like we’re swimming against the tide—exhausted and overwhelmed. This episode offers a refreshing perspective: how to recognise life’s natural rhythms and align with them, rather than resist them. Learn why embracing flow, understanding timing, and gently releasing inner conditioning can create more ease and effectiveness in your life.
- Discover the transformative lessons from a 72nd-generation Taoist master on mastering life through minimal interference.
- Understand how meditation isn’t about clearing your mind but about cultivating the powerful ability to begin again—building resilience and emotional balance.
- Learn to spot the changing tides in your life and career, making your efforts more efficient and your journey more joyful.
Tune in now to unlock ancient wisdom and practical tools that will help you flow with life’s currents and experience more calm, clarity, and energy every day!
˚
KEY POINTS AND TIMESTAMPS:
03:27 - Lessons from a 72nd-Generation Taoist Master
05:09 - Mastering Life: The Art of Interfering the Least
08:50 - Going with the Flow: Understanding Life’s Changing Currents
13:37 - Recognising the Tides: Overcoming Conditioning
18:24 - Meditation as a Tool to Uncover Conditioning
19:11 - Practical Meditation: Insight Over Mantra
23:52 - Bringing Meditation into Daily Life
28:36 - Observing Yourself: Stability Amidst Chaos
31:19 - A Wise and Happy Life: Resources and Reflections
˚
MEMORABLE QUOTE:
"Remember that every day of your life, you’re trading a day of your life for that day—so leave something good in it."
˚
VALUABLE RESOURCES:
Bob Martin website: https://www.awiseandhappylife.com/
Mastery Seekers Tribe: https://masteryseekerstribe.com
˚
🎙️ Want to be a guest?
Message Agi on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/member/personaldevelopmentmastery
˚
Personal development inspiration, insights, and actions to implement for living with purpose.
˚
Personal development, self mastery, and actionable wisdom for personal improvement and living with purpose and fulfilment.
Insights and actionable inspiration to implement for self-mastery, living authentically, living your purpose, cultivating emotional intelligence, building confidence, and living authentically through personal mastery, healthy habits, meditation, mindset shifts, spirituality, wellness, and personal growth - empowering entrepreneurs, leaders, and seekers to embrace happiness and fulfilment.
Join our free community "Mastery Seekers Tribe".
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Agi Keramidas (00:00):
How can we navigate life's challenges with
more ease and flow, even whenthe tide seems against us?
Welcome to personal developmentmastery, the podcast that helps
intelligent, busy professionalsdevelop self mastery and
(00:21):
discover their calling so youcan thrive in a fulfilling,
purposeful life. I am your host,Agi Keramidas, and this is
episode 496, by listening tothis episode, you are going to
discover transformative lessonsfrom a Taoist master on
(00:42):
mastering your life throughminimal interference, you will
also understand how meditationisn't about clearing your mind,
but about cultivating thepowerful ability to begin again.
This is one of the mostinsightful and outstanding
(01:02):
conversations ahead in thepodcast. So listen in, and
before we dive in, remember myfellow mastery seeker, if you
want to go deeper into theepisode, join us at our free
community, mastery seeker tribe.
Go to mastery seeker.com nowlet's get started. Today. It is
my real pleasure to speak withBob. Martin. Bob, you have a
(01:29):
story as extraordinary as it isinspiring. You were once a high
powered criminal trial lawyers,but your journey took you from
the courtroom to the meditationcushion, transforming you into a
mindfulness mentor, professorand author. Your mission is to
(01:50):
help others break free fromlimiting beliefs, live with
clarity and navigate life withwisdom, humour and ease, Bob,
I'm delighted to have you withme today. Welcome and
Bob Martin (02:07):
I am delighted to be here. Thank you so much for the
invitation.
Agi Keramidas (02:11):
I'm looking forward for this conversation,
Bob and the let's say theoverarching theme or topic that
I would like to explore withyou, at least mainly, is
navigating life with with ease,with flow, with humour, which is
(02:35):
as As you know, not manypeople's experience of life. So
before we go there, I would likeyou to tell us from I was
reading your story, and you havestudied under a 72nd, generation
Taoist Master for most of us, Ithink that title for me, it. It
(03:03):
brings to mind someone very wiseand very old, perhaps with a
white, long beard, but that'swhat I can imagine. I would like
you. Do you want to share withus, perhaps some profound wisdom
or teaching that you've learnedfrom,
Bob Martin (03:24):
oh so many, so many, when I studied with Master knee,
and, yeah, just think about that72 generations. That's about
1400 years of father passingdown wisdom to son, yes, over
generations. And of course, youknow the Shaolin Temple is
where, you know the TV show kungfu was centred. And so, you
(03:51):
know, Kung Fu, tai chi, theageing, all of these are Daoist
practices. It's kind of like asister to Buddhism. And, yeah, I
studied under Master knee forsix years. Not that I went. I
did not go to the ShaolinTemple. He came to Miami and and
came and he had a group there, aTaoist group that he sponsored
(04:16):
and and taught at. And he was,he was the transformational
mentor that brought me from, youknow, that world of money and
legal to a much happier life.
Let's put it that way. But Iremember one time we said to
him, and he, I will tell youthis, he always chuckled and
(04:37):
giggled a lot. He was 72 yearsold when I met him, and he
looked no more than 45 his facewas wrinkle free. He was as
supple as a baby. He could siton his heels and just amazing.
And he was one. Those folks who,the moment you met him, you
(05:01):
said, this guy's got it. Heknows he understands, and I want
to know what he knows. So justfeed me. You know. Just feed me,
please. So one day, we askedMaster knee, why do they call
you master? And he said, well,because I have mastered life.
And He chuckled and walked away.
(05:23):
He was always chuckling. So wegot him a little bit later, and
we said, Well, come on now tellus. What does it mean to master
life? And His face becameserious, and he looked at us,
and he said, When you caninterfere the least and have the
(05:44):
desired impact. And when youknow what the desired impact is,
you have begun to master life.
And it just even sends chillsdown me today. But it's that.
It's that interfering the least.
(06:06):
And you know, so many of us livefeeling that we're responsible
for everything. We carry theweight of the world on our
shoulders. We exhaust ourselveswith work that perhaps is not
efficient or effective, andwhat, what Taoism really
(06:29):
studies, is going with the flow.
It is not, you know, a God basedreligion, although it did come
out of the shamanistictraditions of ancient ancient
China. But still, it hasdeveloped into something which
is much more psychological thanit is anything else. And what it
(06:51):
teaches is it teaches that goingwith the flow has a certain trap
to it. Most people think whenthey hear going with the flow,
oh, I'll just take my hands offthe wheel. And you know, la di
da di da Life is but a dream.
(07:14):
Merrily, merrily, merrily, I'mfloating down the stream. And
it's not like that. You know,life's not like that.
Unfortunately. You know thestream, if you go with the flow,
and you use the metaphor of ariver, most of us think of
floating down a very calm,tranquil River, going with the
flow. But you know, there arerapids, there is white water,
(07:40):
there are waterfalls, there arehurricanes, there are floods,
there are gentle April rains,there's due there's so many
different aspects of what theflow is that we have to be
sensitive to it. Because if I'min my canoe and the water is
(08:02):
calm, that's true. I don't haveto pay too much attention to it.
But when the water becomes rapidand there's white water, I have
to attend to it very carefully.
Otherwise, I'll tip over. Sothere's two different ways of
going with the flow, dependingon what the flow is and what
what Taoism teaches is. Itteaches not only how to identify
(08:25):
the slow the flow in humantransactions, but also how to
align yourself appropriatelywith it. If I can use one of my
favourite metaphors, imaginethat you're out in the ocean and
(08:45):
you want to swim into shore. Sothere's three ways to do it.
One, you could panic andprobably drown, not the best
way. Two, you could just say, Ineed to get to shore and I'm
going to swim there, and justswim there. Or three, you can
take a look and notice that thetide moves towards shore and it
(09:11):
moves away from shore, and italternates. It goes forward and
it comes back. So if I'm goingto align myself with that when
it's going towards the shore,I'm going to take advantage of
it, and I'm going to swim withall my might, but when it goes
against the shore, I'm not goingto fight it, but I'm not going
(09:33):
to let it sweep me out to seaeither. I want to conserve my
energy and use only what'snecessary to hold my position
and wait and be patient untilthe tide changes and is going
with me again, and then swimlike heck, and then pause and
swim like heck. This way, I'llget to shore and I'll be.
(09:58):
Energised I will have gotten Iwill have been effective in that
I achieved my goal, and I willhave been efficient in that I
interfered the least and usedthe most efficient capacities
that I personally had to apply.
(10:19):
So I was efficient andeffective. I get to shore, I am
energised and have more energyto move forward with other
things. So this is, this is whatTaoism teaches. And you know, in
human transactions, what we'retalking about is sometimes the
(10:39):
situation is very propitious,and it seems like everything
that you do works. So these arethe times of great advance.
Other times in life, it seemslike you're walking in mud and
everything is hard and nothing'sworking. So these are the times
where you kind of back away alittle bit and contemplate and
(11:01):
think and wait for the situationto change, and while you're
waiting, use the time to refineyour presentation. So now you're
being effective and efficient,and you're going with the flow,
and you're using it to your bestadvantage. And you know, getting
(11:24):
developing that skill, and it isa skill, the good news is that
it can be learned. It doesn'tcome to us naturally, but it can
be learned. And living that lifeis a life that is just a lot
easier.
Agi Keramidas (11:46):
Bob, thank you so much for this answer. There were
so many things I could start anentirely new podcast
conversation from each of them,the one that I really enjoyed
because I hadn't, at least heardthis story before, was with the
swimmer that wants to reach theshore, and, you know, observing
(12:09):
the tide that changes in usingit to their advantage. I
suppose, from that particularwhen you were saying the story,
there were two things that cameto my mind as probably the
challenges with, you know,following through that. The
first is to actually realisingthat the tide has changed,
(12:33):
because many, many of us don'tuntil it is way too obvious. And
the second is, okay, the diethas changed. There is, you know,
that inner perhaps resistanceto, you know, feeling passive,
of or feeling powerless or notfeeling in control, that may
(12:58):
make it difficult to stick tothe plan of just maintaining
position and waiting for theinevitable tide to turn. So this
were my two you know, I thinkthe challenges, so I would like
to hear your your wisdom onthat. So
Bob Martin (13:18):
these, these challenges you speak of are the
result of the conditioningthat's been imposed on us
throughout our life. It iscaused by the filters through
which the world, the informationyou know, comes into our mind
you know, either through oureyes or our ears or our tents of
(13:41):
feelings, but But it getsfiltered by our conditioning.
And it is the conditioning, theidea that something should be a
particular way, that that causesthe difficulty. When I was
lawyering, I had another greatmentor, Judge Gerald Cogan, who
(14:06):
in Miami, during those days, inone building, there were 14
felony courtrooms, and onMonday, all of the cases for the
week would Have to appear and beassigned days or continued or or
pled out or something, but allof the defendants and all of the
(14:28):
lawyers and all of the peoplethat were involved had to be
there. It was packed solid eachcourtroom. The air conditioning
couldn't even keep up with thebody heat. It was like a war
zone, except for one, Judge,cogan's his his courtroom was
like an oasis. And so I went andI asked him once, I said, Judge
(14:50):
Cogan, you know, do you haveless cases than everybody else?
He goes, No. Matter of fact, Ihave more. I'm the
administrative judge, so I havea greater like. Out. I said,
Have you ever walked around hereon a Monday morning? It's crazy.
Your courtrooms like, Okay, howdo you how do you account for
that? And he said, Well, Bob,it's like this. If you want to
(15:16):
pick an apple off the tree andit's not ripe, you're going to
pull it and twist it andstruggle and yank and it'll
finally come off. And it's goingto be sour. If you wait too
long, it's going to drop androt. But if you pick it at the
right time, it comes off easyand it's sweet. I think that I
(15:39):
just have a sense of not lettingmy ego get in the way and being
feeling like I have to contestwith some lawyer who's asking
for a continuance. I just have abetter sense of when a case
needs to be tried and when itneeds to be continued. And that
(16:01):
is, you know, part of it. So touse the apple metaphor, if my
conditioning tells me that Ineed this apple now and it's not
ripe, my life is going to bevery difficult. It's not that
the apple is causing theproblem. It's that my idea, that
(16:24):
I need it now, is causing theproblem. I haven't recognised
the flow, and so I'm notaligning with it. So that's kind
of like where meditation comesin as as an assistance to
learning and becoming sensitisedto the flow, because in
(16:46):
meditation, we learn to be morepresent and it's, it's, it's
really hard to recognise Theflow, recognise the energy
that's in the situation aroundyou. If you're ruminating about
things in the past orprojecting, you know, and
(17:08):
catastrophizing things in thefuture, if you're not here right
now, it's hard to feel what'sgoing on. So meditation helps
you learn to be more present,and it also helps you to learn
to be more sensitive. But mostimportantly, it reveals to you
the conditioning that's beenopposed on you. And one of the
(17:34):
things it teaches you is that ityou can't make the conditioning
go away. You can't force it togo away, which most of us want
to do, but you can let it goaway. And meditation teaches you
how to do that, to let it go,not to make it go, but to let it
(17:56):
go. And so the two kind of workhand in hand.
Agi Keramidas (18:04):
I'm glad you. You bridged it very beautifully,
because I was about to ask youwith about meditation. You, you
said, reveals the it reveals theconditioning and it's, it's the
question that comes to mind whenI hear this kind of description
(18:26):
of what a benefit of meditationis, is, do you recommend or
suggest some particulartechnique of meditation that is
perhaps better suited to developor to experience that rather
than others. Techniques,
Bob Martin (18:48):
yes, I do. I mean, there are many, you know,
different I'm asking, yeah, butthe basic instruction, I
suppose, in meditation, what wecall is Vipassana or Tibetan,
insight meditation. I think thatwould be the best word to use.
(19:09):
Insight meditation is what Iteach, and it's not a mantra,
and it's not transcendental, andyou don't go somewhere. It's
it's simply, well, let meexplain. Let me, let me suggest
it this way. Have you ever beenlistening to somebody and all of
(19:35):
a sudden you're not listening tothem anymore because you're
thinking about whether you leftthe stove on, yes. And then all
of a sudden your brain kind ofsays to you, hey, Agi, you're
not listening to the guy. Andall of a sudden you go, Oh, I'm
not listening. Oh my. And thenget a flood of judgments. And
got think, how am I gonna gethim to say it again without
(19:57):
letting him know? Blah, blah,blah. But then. Go back and you
listen to them again. Well,that's what meditation is.
That's exactly what meditationis, except for the fact that you
do it intentionally, instead ofletting it just happen, and
therefore you notice what'sgoing on more. So the
instructions are, form theintention to put your attention,
(20:21):
say on your breath or a candle,and then in three seconds, your
mind is going to wander. It'sgoing to go awesome place. And
that's because, evolutionarily,when we lived in the jungle, we
were always scanning for danger,and we are constructed for our
minds to wander and scan thatthat's how we evolved. That's
(20:41):
the animal that we are. So it'scompletely normal. So when
people say, Oh, I can't sitstill, because my mind goes,
well, yeah, that's what happens.
But then at some point, yourmind goes, Hey, you said that it
was your intention to payattention to the candle. You,
oh, you kind of wake up. Thatwaking up is the moment of
(21:03):
mindfulness. It's not payingattention to the candle. It's
waking up when your mindwandered. And then you remind
yourself, then you have theflood of judgments. So now you
get to observe your judgments.
And after you do this severaltimes, you kind of get bored of
(21:23):
them, and they kind of go awayon their own, without forcing
them to go away. And then youbegin again. And every time you
begin again, you're forming aneural pathway in your brain
that says, I can do this. I'mcapable, I can begin again. I
can fail, and I can begin again.
And that helps us develop atolerance for discomfort, which
(21:46):
gives us the ability to riskmore and learn more and grow
more and as we go through thisprocess, so it's not about
quieting the mind, it's notabout calming the mind or having
white noise. It's aboutbeginning again, failing and
beginning again, failing andbeginning again, failing and
beginning again. And we do it inthis safe place where nothing's
(22:08):
at risk, but it gives us theability to train ourselves to go
into the real world and fail andbegin again, you know, and, and,
and and try and experiment andhave you know ideas notice, so
we develop all these skills.
Agi Keramidas (22:33):
And I think great benefit of being able to have
this moment of mindfulness, asyou you called it that waking up
from the the mental the internaldialogue. I think once you
experience that over and overagain, then you can utilise it
(22:57):
or bring that awareness at somepoint when you are not on your
cushion, meditating, whensomething happens in life and
you rather than reactingimmediately out of the
conditioning, as you were sayingearlier to you know, waking up
(23:18):
for a moment to Be present inthe moment. I think it's so
useful,
Bob Martin (23:23):
so useful. It is, like you say, if, if the only
thing that meditation was goodfor was sitting on a cushion, it
wouldn't be worth it. Itwouldn't be worth the time and
the effort you got to bring itinto your life, and so what? So
we all have all experienced, Ibelieve we've all experienced
(23:46):
being in a conversation, andeven as we're speaking and
saying one thing, there's a partof our brain that's evaluating
it's saying, Oh, this isn'tgoing well, or I can't wait till
I get to the punch line, or, Oh,I think I forgot the punch line.
And so there's this part of ourbrain that's commenting on us,
(24:09):
even though while we'respeaking. Now, when we when that
just happens of its own accord,it just happens. It's not very
helpful. But when we payattention to that other voice,
the commenting voice, when wepay attention to it, what we
(24:29):
find is that from that place inour mind, there's a certain
stability. It's not thrown byemotions as much. So going back
to the river metaphor, sothere's a stream of
(24:49):
consciousness, and there areleaves and logs. Those are our
thoughts, and it's like we'reholding on to a log floating
down the river, and then we gointo the white water. Or then we
go for a waterfall, and all oflife is affecting us. And of
course, we're emotional aboutit. But that other part, the
part that comments, as we beginto become more familiar with
(25:12):
that and intentionally payattention to it, we begin to
reconnect with it. And, youknow, depending on you know,
your your perspective, ifyou're, you know a psychologist,
you might call it your intuitivemind or your authentic self. If
(25:32):
you're spiritual, you might callit your soul. But whatever it
is, when we pay attention to it,and we reconnect to it, we find
that we can watch ourselves onthe log in the river from that
place of being the observer, andas the observer, there's a
(25:54):
certain stability of Mind and acertain peacefulness of mind,
even even as I'm getting angry,even as I'm feeling grief, even
as I'm feeling joy, I am stillobserving it from another place
at the same time, and from thatplace that's when people talk
(26:16):
about peace and tranquillity.
It's not that I have removedmyself from the ups and downs of
life. It's just that I've foundanother place where, at the same
time, I can be more stable. Andso to give you an example, just
the other day, I was in thegrocery store, and I was in a
(26:38):
big rush. I had to get to class,and, you know, so I was in a big
rush, and I had a couple ofthings, and you're looking at
the different cashier linestrying to find the shortest one.
And I see a lady, she's got twoof, like, five or six items in a
basket. And I said, Oh, she'sgonna be quick, so she goes up,
(27:00):
and as soon as she gets to thecashier and I'm behind her, I'm
gonna rush, and she opens up athree ring binder with a bunch
of coupons.
I go, Oh no, oh no. So you know,I, you know, you have a choice.
(27:25):
You can either sit there andgrumble and be upset or pay
attention to my breathing. Justgo into that, you know, just go
back and and be the observer andwatch myself getting anxious and
watching myself being antsy. So,um, the ants in this, you know,
just becomes something I'mwatching, and that's where I'm
(27:45):
coming from. So that's, that'show you take it into your
everyday life, and you noticewhat you're doing, and you
notice when you say somethingthat didn't work very well. So
maybe the next time you'll sayit different, or maybe the next
time or the next time, it's allgood.
Agi Keramidas (28:06):
I like that very last comment about the next time
or the next time because it a itimplies that there is a journey
there, rather than somethingthat is achievable and as a
result, and from there on, it issomething different. Bob is this
(28:30):
is a wonderful conversation.
Thank you very much for thewisdom that you shared. And
there is I mentioned alreadythat that story, with that
metaphor, with the swimmercoming out of the sea, is, I
believe it is incredible to pawnthis on. And you know, really
think about reflecting on one'slife. Perhaps, could
Bob Martin (28:56):
I add one little thing? Absolutely, yes. So most
of us are familiar with thesymbol of the tai chi, the black
and the white. Yes, there's theblack with the white dot and the
white with the black dot. Mostof us don't understand what that
symbolises. So the black.is theblack.is Yin and the white field
(29:20):
is Yang. So the seed of Yin isin Yang, and that seed is going
to grow and Yin will take overYang, just as Yang will take
over Yin, and Black will turn towhite, and White will turn to
black. And so the symbol is thatthe natural way of the universe
(29:41):
is that day turns to night,night turns today, summer turns
to winter, and that everythingcycles. And what we human beings
don't connect to in thatmetaphor is that good times and
bad times also cycle. And times.
That work, and times that don'twork also cycle. And so having
(30:01):
patience and waiting for thechange in energy is what Taoism
is all about, and what thatsymbol reflects. And so it is.
It is the symbol of the tide.
Agi Keramidas (30:22):
Yeah. You said in the very beginning of the
conversation, there was thephrase interfering the list, and
that's with with that. So thankyou very much, Bob. Let me ask
you, you have a meditationcourse, and I want to ask, where
do you want to direct a listenerthat has found this wisdom
(30:45):
illuminated and wants to followand learn more?
Bob Martin (30:50):
Well, I have a website, and it's called a wise
and happy life.com All one word,a wise and happy life.com and on
it, I have a couple of ebooksthat I've written. They've got
plenty of illustrations, andthey're fun, about 40 pages, and
(31:11):
they're free and downloadable.
And it's a you know, what ismeditation? Is it? For me, some
25 relaxation tips. Is anotherone. And shortly, I'm going to
be putting on some selfassessment quizzes. Everybody
loves those, you know. How muchdo you know about meditation?
You know? What do you thinkabout, you know? So, so there's
(31:33):
a lot of fun stuff and a lot ofdownloadable videos and stuff.
And also, if you're interestedin my courses, of course, you
can inquire about that, and I'mavailable for a 15 minute phone
call. You can just contact methrough the website.
Agi Keramidas (31:51):
Thank you, and I like very much the the fun tone
that you put in that, becausefor many people, the meditation
is something serious, like Bob,I have two final quick questions
for you that I ask all myquestions. And the first one is,
what does personal developmentmean to you
Bob Martin (32:16):
becoming who you really are?
Agi Keramidas (32:22):
And hypothetically speaking, if you
could go back in time and meetyour 18 year old self, what's
one piece of advice you wouldgive him?
Bob Martin (32:33):
My 18 year old self was a pretty arrogant football
player. You know, to tell youthe truth, I don't think there's
anything that I could say to my18 year old who would take it
and use it. Yes, you have to beweathered a little bit before it
(32:56):
all makes sense. But if I couldsay anything at all, I would
say, just remember that everyday of your life, you're trading
a day of your life for that day.
So, you know, make it leave. Andall that you're gonna leave in
that day is whatever you leavein it. So leave something good
in it.
Agi Keramidas (33:18):
Very wise. That is profound. It did. Thank you,
Bob, I want to thank you verymuch for this conversation,
because I learned many things, Itook a lot of notes, and I
really appreciated the way thatyou describe these concepts with
stories, because they are sorelatable and very useful to you
(33:44):
know to use as reflection. Iwill leave it to you for your
final part in wisdom to thelisteners,
Bob Martin (33:55):
you have a responsibility to beauty the
world throws so much, pardon myexpression, so much crap at us,
that it is constantlystimulating our flight fight
response. The thing thatameliorates our fight flight
response is our rest and digest,our connection, our sense of
(34:18):
spirituality. And they occur indifferent parts of the brain.
Beauty stimulates the other sideof the brain and balances off
the crap that the world sends atus. We have a responsibility to
intentionally bring beauty intoour lives on a regular basis.
Otherwise, we go down the rabbithole. Home.
Agi Keramidas (34:40):
I hope you have found this episode enlightening.
If you've been resonating withthese conversations and feel
like you are at the crossroadsin your life, I offer private
one to one coaching to help yougain clarity and step into your
(35:02):
next chapter with confidence. Ifthat sounds interesting, reach
out to me and let's chat, anduntil next time, Stand out.
Don't fit in.
How can we navigate life's challenges with
more ease and flow, even whenthe tide seems against us?
Welcome to personal developmentmastery, the podcast that helps
intelligent, busy professionalsdevelop self mastery and
(00:21):
discover their calling so youcan thrive in a fulfilling,
purposeful life. I am your host,Agi Keramidas, and this is
episode 496, by listening tothis episode, you are going to
discover transformative lessonsfrom a Taoist master on
(00:42):
mastering your life throughminimal interference, you will
also understand how meditationisn't about clearing your mind,
but about cultivating thepowerful ability to begin again.
This is one of the mostinsightful and outstanding
(01:02):
conversations ahead in thepodcast. So listen in, and
before we dive in, remember myfellow mastery seeker, if you
want to go deeper into theepisode, join us at our free
community, mastery seeker tribe.
Go to mastery seeker.com nowlet's get started. Today. It is
my real pleasure to speak withBob. Martin. Bob, you have a
(01:29):
story as extraordinary as it isinspiring. You were once a high
powered criminal trial lawyers,but your journey took you from
the courtroom to the meditationcushion, transforming you into a
mindfulness mentor, professorand author. Your mission is to
(01:50):
help others break free fromlimiting beliefs, live with
clarity and navigate life withwisdom, humour and ease, Bob,
I'm delighted to have you withme today. Welcome and
Bob Martin (02:07):
I am delighted to be here. Thank you so much for the
invitation.
Agi Keramidas (02:11):
I'm looking forward for this conversation,
Bob and the let's say theoverarching theme or topic that
I would like to explore withyou, at least mainly, is
navigating life with with ease,with flow, with humour, which is
(02:35):
as As you know, not manypeople's experience of life. So
before we go there, I would likeyou to tell us from I was
reading your story, and you havestudied under a 72nd, generation
Taoist Master for most of us, Ithink that title for me, it. It
(03:03):
brings to mind someone very wiseand very old, perhaps with a
white, long beard, but that'swhat I can imagine. I would like
you. Do you want to share withus, perhaps some profound wisdom
or teaching that you've learnedfrom,
Bob Martin (03:24):
oh so many, so many, when I studied with Master knee,
and, yeah, just think about that72 generations. That's about
1400 years of father passingdown wisdom to son, yes, over
generations. And of course, youknow the Shaolin Temple is
where, you know the TV show kungfu was centred. And so, you
(03:51):
know, Kung Fu, tai chi, theageing, all of these are Daoist
practices. It's kind of like asister to Buddhism. And, yeah, I
studied under Master knee forsix years. Not that I went. I
did not go to the ShaolinTemple. He came to Miami and and
came and he had a group there, aTaoist group that he sponsored
(04:16):
and and taught at. And he was,he was the transformational
mentor that brought me from, youknow, that world of money and
legal to a much happier life.
Let's put it that way. But Iremember one time we said to
him, and he, I will tell youthis, he always chuckled and
(04:37):
giggled a lot. He was 72 yearsold when I met him, and he
looked no more than 45 his facewas wrinkle free. He was as
supple as a baby. He could siton his heels and just amazing.
And he was one. Those folks who,the moment you met him, you
(05:01):
said, this guy's got it. Heknows he understands, and I want
to know what he knows. So justfeed me. You know. Just feed me,
please. So one day, we askedMaster knee, why do they call
you master? And he said, well,because I have mastered life.
And He chuckled and walked away.
(05:23):
He was always chuckling. So wegot him a little bit later, and
we said, Well, come on now tellus. What does it mean to master
life? And His face becameserious, and he looked at us,
and he said, When you caninterfere the least and have the
(05:44):
desired impact. And when youknow what the desired impact is,
you have begun to master life.
And it just even sends chillsdown me today. But it's that.
It's that interfering the least.
(06:06):
And you know, so many of us livefeeling that we're responsible
for everything. We carry theweight of the world on our
shoulders. We exhaust ourselveswith work that perhaps is not
efficient or effective, andwhat, what Taoism really
(06:29):
studies, is going with the flow.
It is not, you know, a God basedreligion, although it did come
out of the shamanistictraditions of ancient ancient
China. But still, it hasdeveloped into something which
is much more psychological thanit is anything else. And what it
(06:51):
teaches is it teaches that goingwith the flow has a certain trap
to it. Most people think whenthey hear going with the flow,
oh, I'll just take my hands offthe wheel. And you know, la di
da di da Life is but a dream.
(07:14):
Merrily, merrily, merrily, I'mfloating down the stream. And
it's not like that. You know,life's not like that.
Unfortunately. You know thestream, if you go with the flow,
and you use the metaphor of ariver, most of us think of
floating down a very calm,tranquil River, going with the
flow. But you know, there arerapids, there is white water,
(07:40):
there are waterfalls, there arehurricanes, there are floods,
there are gentle April rains,there's due there's so many
different aspects of what theflow is that we have to be
sensitive to it. Because if I'min my canoe and the water is
(08:02):
calm, that's true. I don't haveto pay too much attention to it.
But when the water becomes rapidand there's white water, I have
to attend to it very carefully.
Otherwise, I'll tip over. Sothere's two different ways of
going with the flow, dependingon what the flow is and what
what Taoism teaches is. Itteaches not only how to identify
(08:25):
the slow the flow in humantransactions, but also how to
align yourself appropriatelywith it. If I can use one of my
favourite metaphors, imaginethat you're out in the ocean and
(08:45):
you want to swim into shore. Sothere's three ways to do it.
One, you could panic andprobably drown, not the best
way. Two, you could just say, Ineed to get to shore and I'm
going to swim there, and justswim there. Or three, you can
take a look and notice that thetide moves towards shore and it
(09:11):
moves away from shore, and italternates. It goes forward and
it comes back. So if I'm goingto align myself with that when
it's going towards the shore,I'm going to take advantage of
it, and I'm going to swim withall my might, but when it goes
against the shore, I'm not goingto fight it, but I'm not going
(09:33):
to let it sweep me out to seaeither. I want to conserve my
energy and use only what'snecessary to hold my position
and wait and be patient untilthe tide changes and is going
with me again, and then swimlike heck, and then pause and
swim like heck. This way, I'llget to shore and I'll be.
(09:58):
Energised I will have gotten Iwill have been effective in that
I achieved my goal, and I willhave been efficient in that I
interfered the least and usedthe most efficient capacities
that I personally had to apply.
(10:19):
So I was efficient andeffective. I get to shore, I am
energised and have more energyto move forward with other
things. So this is, this is whatTaoism teaches. And you know, in
human transactions, what we'retalking about is sometimes the
(10:39):
situation is very propitious,and it seems like everything
that you do works. So these arethe times of great advance.
Other times in life, it seemslike you're walking in mud and
everything is hard and nothing'sworking. So these are the times
where you kind of back away alittle bit and contemplate and
(11:01):
think and wait for the situationto change, and while you're
waiting, use the time to refineyour presentation. So now you're
being effective and efficient,and you're going with the flow,
and you're using it to your bestadvantage. And you know, getting
(11:24):
developing that skill, and it isa skill, the good news is that
it can be learned. It doesn'tcome to us naturally, but it can
be learned. And living that lifeis a life that is just a lot
easier.
Agi Keramidas (11:46):
Bob, thank you so much for this answer. There were
so many things I could start anentirely new podcast
conversation from each of them,the one that I really enjoyed
because I hadn't, at least heardthis story before, was with the
swimmer that wants to reach theshore, and, you know, observing
(12:09):
the tide that changes in usingit to their advantage. I
suppose, from that particularwhen you were saying the story,
there were two things that cameto my mind as probably the
challenges with, you know,following through that. The
first is to actually realisingthat the tide has changed,
(12:33):
because many, many of us don'tuntil it is way too obvious. And
the second is, okay, the diethas changed. There is, you know,
that inner perhaps resistanceto, you know, feeling passive,
of or feeling powerless or notfeeling in control, that may
(12:58):
make it difficult to stick tothe plan of just maintaining
position and waiting for theinevitable tide to turn. So this
were my two you know, I thinkthe challenges, so I would like
to hear your your wisdom onthat. So
Bob Martin (13:18):
these, these challenges you speak of are the
result of the conditioningthat's been imposed on us
throughout our life. It iscaused by the filters through
which the world, the informationyou know, comes into our mind
you know, either through oureyes or our ears or our tents of
(13:41):
feelings, but But it getsfiltered by our conditioning.
And it is the conditioning, theidea that something should be a
particular way, that that causesthe difficulty. When I was
lawyering, I had another greatmentor, Judge Gerald Cogan, who
(14:06):
in Miami, during those days, inone building, there were 14
felony courtrooms, and onMonday, all of the cases for the
week would Have to appear and beassigned days or continued or or
pled out or something, but allof the defendants and all of the
(14:28):
lawyers and all of the peoplethat were involved had to be
there. It was packed solid eachcourtroom. The air conditioning
couldn't even keep up with thebody heat. It was like a war
zone, except for one, Judge,cogan's his his courtroom was
like an oasis. And so I went andI asked him once, I said, Judge
(14:50):
Cogan, you know, do you haveless cases than everybody else?
He goes, No. Matter of fact, Ihave more. I'm the
administrative judge, so I havea greater like. Out. I said,
Have you ever walked around hereon a Monday morning? It's crazy.
Your courtrooms like, Okay, howdo you how do you account for
that? And he said, Well, Bob,it's like this. If you want to
(15:16):
pick an apple off the tree andit's not ripe, you're going to
pull it and twist it andstruggle and yank and it'll
finally come off. And it's goingto be sour. If you wait too
long, it's going to drop androt. But if you pick it at the
right time, it comes off easyand it's sweet. I think that I
(15:39):
just have a sense of not lettingmy ego get in the way and being
feeling like I have to contestwith some lawyer who's asking
for a continuance. I just have abetter sense of when a case
needs to be tried and when itneeds to be continued. And that
(16:01):
is, you know, part of it. So touse the apple metaphor, if my
conditioning tells me that Ineed this apple now and it's not
ripe, my life is going to bevery difficult. It's not that
the apple is causing theproblem. It's that my idea, that
(16:24):
I need it now, is causing theproblem. I haven't recognised
the flow, and so I'm notaligning with it. So that's kind
of like where meditation comesin as as an assistance to
learning and becoming sensitisedto the flow, because in
(16:46):
meditation, we learn to be morepresent and it's, it's, it's
really hard to recognise Theflow, recognise the energy
that's in the situation aroundyou. If you're ruminating about
things in the past orprojecting, you know, and
(17:08):
catastrophizing things in thefuture, if you're not here right
now, it's hard to feel what'sgoing on. So meditation helps
you learn to be more present,and it also helps you to learn
to be more sensitive. But mostimportantly, it reveals to you
the conditioning that's beenopposed on you. And one of the
(17:34):
things it teaches you is that ityou can't make the conditioning
go away. You can't force it togo away, which most of us want
to do, but you can let it goaway. And meditation teaches you
how to do that, to let it go,not to make it go, but to let it
(17:56):
go. And so the two kind of workhand in hand.
Agi Keramidas (18:04):
I'm glad you. You bridged it very beautifully,
because I was about to ask youwith about meditation. You, you
said, reveals the it reveals theconditioning and it's, it's the
question that comes to mind whenI hear this kind of description
(18:26):
of what a benefit of meditationis, is, do you recommend or
suggest some particulartechnique of meditation that is
perhaps better suited to developor to experience that rather
than others. Techniques,
Bob Martin (18:48):
yes, I do. I mean, there are many, you know,
different I'm asking, yeah, butthe basic instruction, I
suppose, in meditation, what wecall is Vipassana or Tibetan,
insight meditation. I think thatwould be the best word to use.
(19:09):
Insight meditation is what Iteach, and it's not a mantra,
and it's not transcendental, andyou don't go somewhere. It's
it's simply, well, let meexplain. Let me, let me suggest
it this way. Have you ever beenlistening to somebody and all of
(19:35):
a sudden you're not listening tothem anymore because you're
thinking about whether you leftthe stove on, yes. And then all
of a sudden your brain kind ofsays to you, hey, Agi, you're
not listening to the guy. Andall of a sudden you go, Oh, I'm
not listening. Oh my. And thenget a flood of judgments. And
got think, how am I gonna gethim to say it again without
(19:57):
letting him know? Blah, blah,blah. But then. Go back and you
listen to them again. Well,that's what meditation is.
That's exactly what meditationis, except for the fact that you
do it intentionally, instead ofletting it just happen, and
therefore you notice what'sgoing on more. So the
instructions are, form theintention to put your attention,
(20:21):
say on your breath or a candle,and then in three seconds, your
mind is going to wander. It'sgoing to go awesome place. And
that's because, evolutionarily,when we lived in the jungle, we
were always scanning for danger,and we are constructed for our
minds to wander and scan thatthat's how we evolved. That's
(20:41):
the animal that we are. So it'scompletely normal. So when
people say, Oh, I can't sitstill, because my mind goes,
well, yeah, that's what happens.
But then at some point, yourmind goes, Hey, you said that it
was your intention to payattention to the candle. You,
oh, you kind of wake up. Thatwaking up is the moment of
(21:03):
mindfulness. It's not payingattention to the candle. It's
waking up when your mindwandered. And then you remind
yourself, then you have theflood of judgments. So now you
get to observe your judgments.
And after you do this severaltimes, you kind of get bored of
(21:23):
them, and they kind of go awayon their own, without forcing
them to go away. And then youbegin again. And every time you
begin again, you're forming aneural pathway in your brain
that says, I can do this. I'mcapable, I can begin again. I
can fail, and I can begin again.
And that helps us develop atolerance for discomfort, which
(21:46):
gives us the ability to riskmore and learn more and grow
more and as we go through thisprocess, so it's not about
quieting the mind, it's notabout calming the mind or having
white noise. It's aboutbeginning again, failing and
beginning again, failing andbeginning again, failing and
beginning again. And we do it inthis safe place where nothing's
(22:08):
at risk, but it gives us theability to train ourselves to go
into the real world and fail andbegin again, you know, and, and,
and and try and experiment andhave you know ideas notice, so
we develop all these skills.
Agi Keramidas (22:33):
And I think great benefit of being able to have
this moment of mindfulness, asyou you called it that waking up
from the the mental the internaldialogue. I think once you
experience that over and overagain, then you can utilise it
(22:57):
or bring that awareness at somepoint when you are not on your
cushion, meditating, whensomething happens in life and
you rather than reactingimmediately out of the
conditioning, as you were sayingearlier to you know, waking up
(23:18):
for a moment to Be present inthe moment. I think it's so
useful,
Bob Martin (23:23):
so useful. It is, like you say, if, if the only
thing that meditation was goodfor was sitting on a cushion, it
wouldn't be worth it. Itwouldn't be worth the time and
the effort you got to bring itinto your life, and so what? So
we all have all experienced, Ibelieve we've all experienced
(23:46):
being in a conversation, andeven as we're speaking and
saying one thing, there's a partof our brain that's evaluating
it's saying, Oh, this isn'tgoing well, or I can't wait till
I get to the punch line, or, Oh,I think I forgot the punch line.
And so there's this part of ourbrain that's commenting on us,
(24:09):
even though while we'respeaking. Now, when we when that
just happens of its own accord,it just happens. It's not very
helpful. But when we payattention to that other voice,
the commenting voice, when wepay attention to it, what we
(24:29):
find is that from that place inour mind, there's a certain
stability. It's not thrown byemotions as much. So going back
to the river metaphor, sothere's a stream of
(24:49):
consciousness, and there areleaves and logs. Those are our
thoughts, and it's like we'reholding on to a log floating
down the river, and then we gointo the white water. Or then we
go for a waterfall, and all oflife is affecting us. And of
course, we're emotional aboutit. But that other part, the
part that comments, as we beginto become more familiar with
(25:12):
that and intentionally payattention to it, we begin to
reconnect with it. And, youknow, depending on you know,
your your perspective, ifyou're, you know a psychologist,
you might call it your intuitivemind or your authentic self. If
(25:32):
you're spiritual, you might callit your soul. But whatever it
is, when we pay attention to it,and we reconnect to it, we find
that we can watch ourselves onthe log in the river from that
place of being the observer, andas the observer, there's a
(25:54):
certain stability of Mind and acertain peacefulness of mind,
even even as I'm getting angry,even as I'm feeling grief, even
as I'm feeling joy, I am stillobserving it from another place
at the same time, and from thatplace that's when people talk
(26:16):
about peace and tranquillity.
It's not that I have removedmyself from the ups and downs of
life. It's just that I've foundanother place where, at the same
time, I can be more stable. Andso to give you an example, just
the other day, I was in thegrocery store, and I was in a
(26:38):
big rush. I had to get to class,and, you know, so I was in a big
rush, and I had a couple ofthings, and you're looking at
the different cashier linestrying to find the shortest one.
And I see a lady, she's got twoof, like, five or six items in a
basket. And I said, Oh, she'sgonna be quick, so she goes up,
(27:00):
and as soon as she gets to thecashier and I'm behind her, I'm
gonna rush, and she opens up athree ring binder with a bunch
of coupons.
I go, Oh no, oh no. So you know,I, you know, you have a choice.
(27:25):
You can either sit there andgrumble and be upset or pay
attention to my breathing. Justgo into that, you know, just go
back and and be the observer andwatch myself getting anxious and
watching myself being antsy. So,um, the ants in this, you know,
just becomes something I'mwatching, and that's where I'm
(27:45):
coming from. So that's, that'show you take it into your
everyday life, and you noticewhat you're doing, and you
notice when you say somethingthat didn't work very well. So
maybe the next time you'll sayit different, or maybe the next
time or the next time, it's allgood.
Agi Keramidas (28:06):
I like that very last comment about the next time
or the next time because it a itimplies that there is a journey
there, rather than somethingthat is achievable and as a
result, and from there on, it issomething different. Bob is this
(28:30):
is a wonderful conversation.
Thank you very much for thewisdom that you shared. And
there is I mentioned alreadythat that story, with that
metaphor, with the swimmercoming out of the sea, is, I
believe it is incredible to pawnthis on. And you know, really
think about reflecting on one'slife. Perhaps, could
Bob Martin (28:56):
I add one little thing? Absolutely, yes. So most
of us are familiar with thesymbol of the tai chi, the black
and the white. Yes, there's theblack with the white dot and the
white with the black dot. Mostof us don't understand what that
symbolises. So the black.is theblack.is Yin and the white field
(29:20):
is Yang. So the seed of Yin isin Yang, and that seed is going
to grow and Yin will take overYang, just as Yang will take
over Yin, and Black will turn towhite, and White will turn to
black. And so the symbol is thatthe natural way of the universe
(29:41):
is that day turns to night,night turns today, summer turns
to winter, and that everythingcycles. And what we human beings
don't connect to in thatmetaphor is that good times and
bad times also cycle. And times.
That work, and times that don'twork also cycle. And so having
(30:01):
patience and waiting for thechange in energy is what Taoism
is all about, and what thatsymbol reflects. And so it is.
It is the symbol of the tide.
Agi Keramidas (30:22):
Yeah. You said in the very beginning of the
conversation, there was thephrase interfering the list, and
that's with with that. So thankyou very much, Bob. Let me ask
you, you have a meditationcourse, and I want to ask, where
do you want to direct a listenerthat has found this wisdom
(30:45):
illuminated and wants to followand learn more?
Bob Martin (30:50):
Well, I have a website, and it's called a wise
and happy life.com All one word,a wise and happy life.com and on
it, I have a couple of ebooksthat I've written. They've got
plenty of illustrations, andthey're fun, about 40 pages, and
(31:11):
they're free and downloadable.
And it's a you know, what ismeditation? Is it? For me, some
25 relaxation tips. Is anotherone. And shortly, I'm going to
be putting on some selfassessment quizzes. Everybody
loves those, you know. How muchdo you know about meditation?
You know? What do you thinkabout, you know? So, so there's
(31:33):
a lot of fun stuff and a lot ofdownloadable videos and stuff.
And also, if you're interestedin my courses, of course, you
can inquire about that, and I'mavailable for a 15 minute phone
call. You can just contact methrough the website.
Agi Keramidas (31:51):
Thank you, and I like very much the the fun tone
that you put in that, becausefor many people, the meditation
is something serious, like Bob,I have two final quick questions
for you that I ask all myquestions. And the first one is,
what does personal developmentmean to you
Bob Martin (32:16):
becoming who you really are?
Agi Keramidas (32:22):
And hypothetically speaking, if you
could go back in time and meetyour 18 year old self, what's
one piece of advice you wouldgive him?
Bob Martin (32:33):
My 18 year old self was a pretty arrogant football
player. You know, to tell youthe truth, I don't think there's
anything that I could say to my18 year old who would take it
and use it. Yes, you have to beweathered a little bit before it
(32:56):
all makes sense. But if I couldsay anything at all, I would
say, just remember that everyday of your life, you're trading
a day of your life for that day.
So, you know, make it leave. Andall that you're gonna leave in
that day is whatever you leavein it. So leave something good
in it.
Agi Keramidas (33:18):
Very wise. That is profound. It did. Thank you,
Bob, I want to thank you verymuch for this conversation,
because I learned many things, Itook a lot of notes, and I
really appreciated the way thatyou describe these concepts with
stories, because they are sorelatable and very useful to you
(33:44):
know to use as reflection. Iwill leave it to you for your
final part in wisdom to thelisteners,
Bob Martin (33:55):
you have a responsibility to beauty the
world throws so much, pardon myexpression, so much crap at us,
that it is constantlystimulating our flight fight
response. The thing thatameliorates our fight flight
response is our rest and digest,our connection, our sense of
(34:18):
spirituality. And they occur indifferent parts of the brain.
Beauty stimulates the other sideof the brain and balances off
the crap that the world sends atus. We have a responsibility to
intentionally bring beauty intoour lives on a regular basis.
Otherwise, we go down the rabbithole. Home.
Agi Keramidas (34:40):
I hope you have found this episode enlightening.
If you've been resonating withthese conversations and feel
like you are at the crossroadsin your life, I offer private
one to one coaching to help yougain clarity and step into your
(35:02):
next chapter with confidence. Ifthat sounds interesting, reach
out to me and let's chat, anduntil next time, Stand out.
Don't fit in.
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