Have you ever held back from asking for help because it felt like admitting weakness?
Many of us struggle with the idea of vulnerability, especially when it comes to expressing our aspirations or challenges. In this compelling episode, Leo Bottary returns to explore how shifting our mindset around help, communication and personal growth can unlock deeper fulfilment.
If you are still searching for clarity and direction despite all the courses, books and retreats, this conversation offers a powerful new perspective.
- Learn why successful people see asking for help as resourcefulness rather than weakness, and how you can reframe your own thinking.
- Understand the hidden power of peer conversations in helping you articulate and act on your personal aspirations.
- Gain simple but transformative communication habits that improve self-awareness and create space for meaningful growth.
Tune in now to discover how practical shifts in mindset and language can lead you to more clarity, connection and purpose.
˚
KEY POINTS AND TIMESTAMPS:
02:01 - Welcome Back Leo and Introduction to Peernovation
03:48 - Revisiting Personal Responsibility and Peer Accountability
07:22 - Asking for Help as Resourcefulness, Not Weakness
12:38 - The Power of Peer Influence and Raising Standards
13:08 - Moving from Me to We: Lessons from Collaborative Learning
19:03 - Communication Skills for Understanding and Connection
22:53 - Emotional Intelligence in the Classroom: A Case Study
26:21 - Vulnerability in Expressing Aspirations and Challenges
32:28 - Peer Support for Clarity, Confidence and Purpose
36:46 - Practical Advice for Creating Meaningful Conversations
˚
MEMORABLE QUOTE:
"Successful people tend to ask for help. They don’t see it as a sign of weakness, they regard it as an act of resourcefulness."
˚
VALUABLE RESOURCES:
Leo Bottary's website: https://www.peernovation.biz/
˚
Click here to get in touch with Agi and discuss mentoring/coaching.
˚
Join our growing community at MasterySeekersTribe.com, where self-mastery seekers come together for connection and growth.
˚
🎙️ Want to be a guest?
Message Agi on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/member/personaldevelopmentmastery
˚
Personal development inspiration, self help insights, and actions to implement for self improvement and living with purpose.
˚
Personal development, self mastery and actionable wisdom for self improvement, self help and living with purpose and fulfilment.
Inspiring insights to help you cultivate emotional intelligence, build confidence, live authentically and embrace your purpose. Discover practical tools for self-improvement, personal growth, self mastery, mindset shifts, healthy habits, meditation, wellness, spirituality and self growth—empowering entrepreneurs, leaders and seekers to create meaningful success and lasting happiness.
Join our growing community at MasterySeekersTribe.com, where self-mastery seekers come together for connection and growth.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Agi Keramidas (00:00):
Have you ever stopped yourself from asking for
help because it felt like youwould be admitting weakness?
Welcome to personal developmentmastery, the podcast that helps
intelligent, busy professionalsdevelop self mastery and
discover their calling so youcan thrive in a fulfilling,
(00:21):
purposeful life. I'm your host.
Agi Keramidas, and this isepisode 506 many of us struggle
with the idea of vulnerability,especially when it comes to
expressing our aspirations orchallenges. In this episode, Leo
Bottary returns to the podcast.
(00:45):
I'm saying returns because hewas a guest back in episode 128
where we talked about peer grouplearning. So this time today, we
talked about why successfulpeople see asking for help as
resourcefulness rather thanweakness, and how you can
(01:09):
reframe your own thinking andyou will also gain simple but
transformative communicationhabits that Improve Self
Awareness and create space forpersonal growth. If you've done
the courses, read the books, butstill feel stuck, this episode
is for you before we dive in. Ifyou have been resonating with
(01:35):
these conversations and feellike you are at a crossroads in
your life, I offer one to onecoaching to help you gain
clarity and step into your nextchapter with confidence. If that
sounds interesting, reach out tome and let's chat now. Let's get
started today.
It is a real pleasure to welcomeLeo Bottary back to the show,
(02:01):
Leo, you are the founder of peerinnovation and a leading voice
on how peer learning cantransform not just leadership,
but entire teams. Your new book,The second edition of peer
innovation, explores how thepowerful dynamics of CEO peer
groups can be brought intoeveryday teams to help them
(02:23):
connect, grow together andperform with greater purpose.
Leo, it's great to have youback. Welcome back. It's been
four years. Can you believe it?
You
Leo Bottary (02:36):
know, it's great to be here. Great to hear your
voice. I thought that I shouldhave had you read the audio
book, you know, just beautifullydone as always, and great to be
here like I says. No one says mylast name quite like you do. So
it's always nice to it's been awhile since I've been on the
show, but really excited to behere. Thank
Agi Keramidas (02:56):
you. Yeah, you're too kind about my voice. I know
it's very, let's say unique. Iwill leave it to that. But you
know, it's great to have youback. And I was looking earlier,
and we first spoke in Episode128 so now that we're speaking,
(03:18):
we're past 500 so it's been, youknow, four years, let's have
Leo Bottary (03:23):
changed for you. My hair is whiter now, you know,
tell
Agi Keramidas (03:27):
me about as my beard is white as well. Yes, I
don't have much hair, but Ithink there is white there also,
what I would like to start,because we will talk about the
power of peer learning and allthe things that you brought
again, into the surface withyour the second edition of your
(03:53):
book, I would like to start, andalso, you know, perhaps connect
us in a way, to that episodefour years ago, one of the
standout ideas that you hadshared at that time was how
accountability in a team isabout personal responsibility,
(04:18):
rather than, you know, top downpressure. So I want to ask you,
since then, how has yourthinking around that evolved?
Has the meaning of personalresponsibility changed for you
in the last few years?
Leo Bottary (04:37):
No, not really. I do think it's about people
accepting personalresponsibility for bringing
their best. It doesn't have tobe top down, but I think there's
a real peer to peer element toit as well. You know, I've been
on teams. For example, I alwaystell a story when I first was
working at Mullen, and today,there it's Mullen low, and I
went to a meeting that waslooking at how. We were going to
(05:00):
approach this new prospect. Andthe people in that meeting were
unbelievably well prepared. Imean, they knew the details
about not only the client andthe competitors, and the history
of the advertising and thepsychographics of the market and
what was going to happen in theeconomy, in that sector over the
next several years and all ofthat. And I came prepared to
(05:21):
that meeting. However, it waskind of a welcome to the NFL
moment for me, if you will. WhenI was like, wow, I was prepared,
but I wasn't Mullen lowprepared. And so what I realised
was that if I'm going to play inthis league, I have to up my
game. I didn't need a boss totell me that. I didn't need
anything, but those peers setthe example for me about what
(05:44):
being prepared in thisenvironment is all about, and
they're dead serious and remainso today, about creating the
best advertising in the world.
And to do that, you've got to beready. And so that was an
extraordinary lesson. I thinkthe same holds true for when I
was in graduate school. Sameholds true from when I've been
on teams or groups or thingslike that, where everyone really
(06:05):
has the capacity to lift eachother up, and if people accept
personal responsibility forthat, if people believe that the
power of we begins with me andthe example I set, and we have
clarity about what we expect ofourselves and others that makes
a big difference. And so, youknow, I would very much say, and
of course, out of that book thatyou're talking about too, I
(06:27):
think the idea was thatsuccessful people tend to ask
for help, right? And we talkedabout this prior to getting on
the air. They don't see askingfor help as a sign of weakness,
they've regarded as an act ofresourcefulness, and because of
that, it puts them in aposition, I think, to be well
equipped to access the resourcesaround them and meet the
(06:49):
challenges that are ahead. Andagain, it doesn't matter if
you're a large corporation, asmall company, among a group of
friends, among all thechallenges that life puts in
front of us, we are much bettertogether.
Agi Keramidas (07:02):
That's great. Let me start with what you just said
about, you know, asking forhelp, not being a weakness, as
many said, but actuallyresourcefulness, which is it's
great reframing for many people.
For someone who is listeningright now might be a bit not
seeing it like that and beinghesitant to ask for for help.
(07:25):
What would you say? How can oneshift that lens and look more of
asking for help us?
Resourcefulness, as you said, Ilove that. That word,
Leo Bottary (07:39):
you know, this is such a big issue that I
literally have a webinardedicated strictly on that
subject. And it begins by askingpeople, how does asking for help
make you feel? And I'll useMentimeter, and we'll create a
word cloud instantly with thefolks on the line. And it will
(07:59):
be, I'll get words like helplessand stupid and inadequate and
all of these things. Most of thethings that people respond with
are really negative. Theybelieve that asking for help is
again, puts them in a feelingthat they're incompetent and
they're not up to what they needto or that they they think about
(08:20):
it in terms of needing someone'shelp versus inviting someone's
help. And I think there's someshifts there that can be made
with regard to all of thosethings, you know, and that's
part of the journey I try totake them on in that webinar, is
to go from seeing it as thatsign of weakness to regarding it
as something that successfulpeople do. You know we when we
(08:45):
turn on our television or lookonline or watch any kind of a
programme, and everything'spersonified, right? Everything's
simplified. Everything is aboutthis person accomplished this
well, this person may have beenthe leader and may have done
some great things, but greatthings are accomplished by
collectives. Great. There's alot of people involved. That
person would be nowhere withouttheir team. So and those team
(09:10):
members who come together bringdifferent gifts to the table.
And so if you are not getting toknow these people well,
understand their gifts, figureout how you can really help one
another, right? That that'sreally what it's all about. And
when you kind of see it thatway, it's almost like the the
the old story that you know,used to people used to always
(09:30):
make fun of men, you know,because they would go into some,
you know, town that they'venever been to, and they didn't
want to ask for directions,right? Because, because they
felt like, okay, but thesepeople live here. Why in the
world wouldn't you say, Hey,where's X Street? Where's X
address? Where's this company?
Someone to ride around all overthe place looking for stuff,
probably endangering pedestriansand other people? Is it not
(09:53):
paying attention to what'shappening on the road? So, you
know, I think it's justpractical. People you know, to
just say, you know. And again, Ithink there's something to be
said for how we ask for thathelp. So I typically will
mention to people, don'tnecessarily express it as I need
your help, which kind of putsyou in that position, but I
(10:13):
invite your help. I want yourhelp. This will be better with
your input. You know, it's notthat I can't do it, it's that
it'll be better if you'reinvolved, you know, in some way.
And while, on one hand, we thinkthat, you know, and there's a
lot of things that go throughour minds. Now, if we've asked
someone help, now we owe them.
Or if we ask something, somebodyfor help, we lose control. You
(10:36):
know, all kinds of things likethat. But I think the reality is
that if you're concerned aboutthe outcome, if you're concerned
about what your ever it isyou're trying to do and try to
make it better. I think seekingthe help and assistance of
others is a really good idea.
And if you send that as aninvitation, and by the way, it
makes you feel good, right? If Icall you and I say, Agi, I would
love to have your help withthis, you know, that kind of
(10:57):
says, Wow, he thinks a lot of methat I can contribute to making
whatever he's trying to dobetter. And I think that's a
nice thing. And I think the morethat we can treat one another
that way and work together inthat way, I think the better.
Agi Keramidas (11:14):
Thank you. And I really liked this
differentiation, which yourepeated a few times between
needing help and inviting help,because it really I think he
gave me exactly the kind ofanswer I was looking for in
terms of shifting a lens,because that is a lens looking
at US need or invite. It makes ahuge difference. I uh, you
(11:44):
earlier on, and I'll come backto that also you were saying
about the peers that you saidthat you had prepared, but not
to that level for thatenvironment. And our peers
definitely will regulate ourstandards. People are around us
generally and in the war andwork and at home, everywhere
(12:08):
will,
Leo Bottary (12:09):
yeah, we can. We can be what we tolerate. You
know? So
Agi Keramidas (12:15):
Exactly, exactly, exactly. One other thing, Leo,
you mentioned it earlier, verybriefly, but I wanted to ask
you, because it is a core themein your book, and it is that the
move from me to we, which youyou said earlier, so I want to
(12:37):
ask in practical terms, give usan example or some principle of
how that is applied.
Leo Bottary (12:48):
So one of the stories I tell in the book is
the fact that and I describe itas my journey, my personal
journey for me to wait. So Igraduated college in 1983 I
didn't go back to graduateschool until 2006 now, when I
was in college, education waskind of a solo pursuit, right?
I'd sit there and I'd take notesand the professor would talk,
(13:08):
and I'd, you know, write papersand take quizzes and exams and
all that you're shielding yourpaper from other people. You
know, it was very much that kindof environment, yeah. So next
thing, you know, fast forward to2006 and I'm part of a cohort.
Now. I'm part of this learningteam where it's all set up for
collaborative learning now, ascollaborative learning would
have been called cheating, youknow, basically 20 plus years
(13:30):
earlier, and here I am now inthis environment where we're
supposed to help one another.
And the reality is that in thatenvironment, we learned most
from one another. I was workedwith an incredible group of mid
to senior level executives,amazing people, second from the
material and third from theprofessors. And by the way, the
professors wouldn't dispute thatcharacterization at all. It's
(13:51):
the very thing they were tryingto set up that was their intent,
and that was their belief. Andthey understand that we do learn
better when we learn together,and largely because of two
reasons, a we can help oneanother absorb that information
better, right? We know based oncollaborative learning theory
that you know, if you and I, forexample, were to read an 800
(14:12):
word blog post, we're going toremember, if you think about it
in terms of the Ebbinghausforgetting curve, right? About
28% of it for about 24 to 48hours. If read it a second time,
the number goes to 46% put agroup together after having read
that one time, and now all of asudden, we talk about it, we
grapple with the concepts, weshare ideas. Now the number goes
to 69% it basically createsneural pathways for us that
(14:36):
allow us to engage and retaininformation better. That's
number one. The second piece isthat usually how we engage one
another provides us in acompletely different set of
lessons. And this is where wehave kind of intentional
learning, right, taking incontent by watching a video,
hearing a speaker reading abook, or whatever it may happen
to be. But then there's alsocollateral. Learning. And that
(14:59):
comes from John Dewey in the1930s where he basically said,
you know those lessons that wereceived directly, those are
really important. But you knowwhat the real lessons are? What
we learn from, how we learn so,how we engage one another.
Teaches us things like, how dowe be more present? How do we be
listen more carefully? How do weask more precise questions? And
I think best of all, what itteaches us, because every one of
(15:23):
us has the the tendency when wehear someone make a statement
about something or do something,we do one of three things. We
rush to judgement, we jump toconclusions, we make assumptions
about where this is all comingfrom. Okay, if you can actually
take a breath, lean into yourcuriosity, ask questions and
listen for understanding, asopposed to trying to be right,
(15:47):
that makes an enormousdifference in terms of how we
can see one another and how wecan see the world. So I think
that the impact of this type oflearning, which I experienced in
graduate school. And of course,you know, quickly fast forward
by graduated in in 2008 by 2010I was working at Vistage, which
(16:07):
assembles and facilitates peeradvisory groups in 40 countries
around the world for CEOs,business leaders and all of
that. And really got some real,firsthand, you know, experience
there. And of course, sinceworked with, you know, so many
other organisations around theworld who, who lead these
groups. And then you see howeasily these basic principles
(16:29):
that we've been talking about,which really in our discussion
so far, haven't been corporatespecific, if you think about it,
they're just general life stuff.
How this applies. If we canbring this and be more
intentional about bringing thisto our teams, it makes all the
difference in the world. And itis, and it is basic stuff. And
people say, Well, this seems alot like common sense. I'm like,
(16:50):
well, it really is. I wish weall just did it more often. You
know, it's, it's alwaysinteresting. If you think about
it, if you you go, let's sayyou're watching a football game
on TV, and I'm talking to Markin football, I guess, is my
example. But, you know, athalftime, they'll interview the
coach and they'll say, Well,what do you need to do, you
know, to get back into this gamein the second half? Well, it's
(17:11):
typically not some grandstrategy. We have to block, we
have to tackle, we have to holdon to the football and don't
turn it over. All of these basicthings that it all comes down
to, you know, doing those thingswell that is going to make a
difference between you comingback in a football game or not.
And I think that's very much thesame in life.
Agi Keramidas (17:35):
Thank you. I agree very much that these
principles are irrelevant ofwhether you are in a corporate
environment or you are at homehaving a conversation with your
children or your spouse, becausethe principles apply the same
what you were saying earlierabout not judging or responding
(17:59):
out of the need to prove yousomething rather than
understanding. These are allqualities that are very much
applicable always, I think,taking a moment to listen what
the other person say, and havingthe awareness to process that
(18:21):
before you give your response, Ithink it is, you know, a skill.
All these are skills for, Iwould say, personal development.
I mean, since the podcast ispersonal development, it's, I
think they are all, you know,expanded and you we can use
(18:43):
them. Yeah,
Leo Bottary (18:44):
we're not really taught, if you think about it,
to listen for understanding. Imean, think about the fact that
when I talk with most people andI ask them, Did you grow up in a
household where you werediscouraged, let's say, by your
parents to avoid conversationsin social situations about
politics and religion,absolutely everybody, every hand
of the room will go up, yes. Sonow, when you think about that,
(19:07):
we are now set up to beincapable of having those
conversations, because webelieve it's going to be a
pitched battle. We believe it'sabout who's right, who isn't,
and all this other kind ofstuff. Think about if we were
taught at a much younger age tobe able to have those
conversations. Now, I get whyparents do this. Basically,
parents don't want their kind ofnascent political or religious
(19:28):
views to be under attack byother people and and feel like
their kid isn't necessarilyequipped to have that
conversation or whatever. Andthey, in some respects, are kind
of productive in in that way,right or wrong. I think that's a
lot of the reason for it, butunfortunately, it puts us in a
position again, where we are notwired now to be able to have
(19:50):
those conversations in a waythat is really about, Hey, I
just want to understand whereyour politics comes from. I want
to understand the role faithplays in your life. And what
that means for you. It doesn'tmean I have to agree with it. It
doesn't mean any of thosethings. It just means I'm going
to be curious, ask questions,and get an understanding and
(20:10):
respect other people and wherethey come from. And I think if
we could do a better job atthat, and start this process for
a lot younger. You know, itmight be helpful as well.
Agi Keramidas (20:25):
I think it is our duty to do this and every other
thing in our power to be betterpeople,
Leo Bottary (20:35):
to grow. You know, when I bring up this thing about
little kids, my granddaughter,who's in the second grade, is in
a classroom where the teacher,her name is Shanna roll, does a
thing every morning with thekids, and it's called clearings
and celebration. And so theybegin every day. Does anyone
have anything to clear? And theidea here would be the kid might
(21:00):
say, Yeah, my dog is sick, or Icut myself yesterday, and it's
kind of bothering me, orsomething is kind of going on.
And people listen to thatstudent and they get to say,
okay, just want to let you knowthis is going on. And the idea
is that despite what I've gotgoing on, as big or small as
that may be, I am going to bringmy best self today, but you
(21:23):
least you know what's happeningand what's going on with that
person. Then with celebrations,it becomes, Hey, I just finished
a book, or it's my mom'sbirthday today, or something
like that, and you get thatlift. You know of everyone about
what's going in their life andwhy they may be, you know, where
they are, but it's a real lessonin empathy, in meeting people
(21:44):
where they are, in understandingand not making fun of other
people. And you know, I mean, itsets an unbelievable tone, not
just for that classroom, but Ithink it sets a foundation for
those kids in life that isextraordinary, and I hope,
continues to be practised as shemoves in other grades. I'm not
sure she isn't the only teacherin that school who does this,
(22:05):
but I thought it was anextraordinary practice. I've
heard about it before, but Inever heard it implemented in a
second grade classroom quite theway she does it and how
incredibly effective it is. Soyou know, again, I think, you
know, kids have a real capacityto be able to do so much, you
know, and have thoseconversations and really listen
(22:26):
and care about one another. And,you know, I think that's a
really great lesson that she'sbringing forward there,
Agi Keramidas (22:32):
definitely. And you know what came to me when
you were describing this game? Ican because their children, I
suppose they can also, theyprobably see it as a game,
rather than you and I now lookat it very seriously and
analytically, but I think oneother thing that it teaches and
(22:54):
allows them is the fact that theenvironment is Safe to express.
You know, their learning, whichmight be some vulnerable moment
celebration, which, you know,sometimes you might wonder, is
that really worth celebrating?
So it is. It means this abilityto because when you are in a
(23:16):
safe environment like this, andyou can express really what you
want without being judged. Ithink that will make a huge
difference, not only furtherdown the line, but always. I
think,
Leo Bottary (23:30):
you know, one of the things that's interesting
that you say too is it speaks tothe idea that we can not only
feel vulnerable when we'resharing challenges that are
happening in our lives, but Ithink just as much, maybe more
so trying to share ouraspirations, because how
vulnerable it is, right? Like,if I shared an aspiration that I
(23:51):
want to achieve this in my life,and someone's looking at me
like, really, like, I don'tthink that's going to happen,
you know? I mean, howdevastating that would be,
right? So people tend to holdthat stuff in. They don't want
to put themselves out there thatthey're looking to do. Because,
unfortunately, you know, theyfeel that a reaction, not by
everybody, but at least by somepeople, might not be, Hey, how
(24:11):
can we help you make thathappen? It's, I don't know about
that could be, could be a highbar for you, you know. So it's,
it's interesting, and I thinkwe've got to be, try to be good
at both, I think. And this istrue in with CEO peer advisory
groups, you're right up there,you talk about, hey, what are
(24:33):
your aspirations for yourself orthis company, or for what you
want to contribute to the world?
That's a vulnerable place to go,but yet, I think it's really
important. And you know, at theend of the day, we can't help
one another if we don't knowwhat help we need. You know, I
couldn't be of assistance to youif I don't know what you're
(24:54):
looking for, and vice versa. AndI think having line of sight and
visibility, i. About what wewant out of life. You know,
becomes really important.
Agi Keramidas (25:05):
You know, I have very personal knowledge of or
experience of what you weredescribing, because 10 years
ago, I was that person thatwould not share aspirations or
problems because, you know, fearof judgement and this and that.
I've done quite a lot of, youknow, work on that to figure it
(25:29):
out, but I have been there. Iknow that's very well, and I
know how liberating and howpretty much the phrase that
comes to mind, it's the doorsthat open actually, when you
speak and you say what's on yourmind, because, as you said,
unless you say, people don'tknow what is going they can't
(25:52):
help you. They can't share withyou their whatever it is unless,
unless you say it. So I
Leo Bottary (26:01):
think liberating is a great word, and I think it can
be cathartic for a lot of folks.
You know, a lot of times when wetalk about people bringing
challenges or aspirations ofwhatever, even in the context of
a CEO peer group, I wouldsuggest to them that to take
control of the situation interms of being clear with people
(26:22):
about what you're looking for.
It may be that you just want tobe heard, that you just want
them to listen to you for 10 or15 minutes. There's something on
your mind, and a lot of times,people won't bring certain
things to a group becausethey're kind of not ready to
deal with it. They get so muchgoing on in their life right
now. They just don't have thebandwidth to feel like they
(26:43):
could put themselves out therewith a group of people now be
expected to actually have todeal with it, right? So, but if
you can actually give somebodythe space and the grace just to
talk out loud about something,you'd be amazed how often that
person will come back a couplemonths later and say, remember
that thing I brought up a fewmonths ago. I'm actually ready
to tackle that now. Or secondly,they may just say they're not
(27:06):
looking for advice, but theywould love to know if anyone has
any experiences that align withthe challenge that they just
described, or aligned with thegoal that they're trying to
achieve. People around the tablewithout overtly trying to make
very direct connections. Justsay, hey, based on what I've
heard, here's here's was mychallenge or and here's what I
(27:26):
did, and here's what the resultwas. And now I kind of collect
those things around the room,and I feel like, okay, here's
what resonated with me, andmaybe here's what I feel is
right for me in my situation andwhat I want to do. And then
third, maybe you, you would loveall the advice anyone's willing
to give you, because you don'thave a clue, you know, and
you're just like, Hey, bring it.
But at least you're invitingthat now you are giving them the
(27:47):
stage to do that. And the onlything I do suggest for the
advice givers, though, is don'tgive advice like most people
give it, which is, you know whatyou should do, you know what I
would do if I were you. It'slike, you know, you don't even
own that. You know you're onyour heels. It's a directive.
It's not anything other thanthat, but just to imagine
yourself as if you were passingout appetisers at a wedding
(28:12):
reception. You know, everyone'sclustered together and they've
got their drinks, and someonegoes by and there's a little
tray, and they just kind of comenear the group and people. You
take one, you don't take one, noharm, no foul, no big deal. And
if you think about giving advicethat way, it might be, you know,
something as easy as, you know,Agi. Have you considered such
and such, or have you thoughtabout x or, you know, you just
(28:34):
kind of floated out there, youknow, you're not directing
anyone to do anything. You'rejust putting something out there
and allowing them to actuallytake it, and allowing them to
think to themselves, I can takethis, and I can own this. And I
think that, you know, again,those kinds of things can help
really open up a conversation.
If we're willing to be clearwith people about, I just want
(28:56):
to be heard. I would love yourexperiences. I'll take all the
advice you got, whatever ithappens to be. And again, as
advice givers, I think, bemindful to make sure that that
lands in a way that the personcan actually accept it and take
it on as their own.
Agi Keramidas (29:13):
That's a big topic on its own, for sure. You
know, giving us solicited.
That's the word that came to mymind. Advice, right? Yeah,
Leo Bottary (29:24):
don't give don't do that. Be wait to be asked. You
know, I think the other thingtoo, is we can get into
conversations with people prettyfrequently. Let's say someone
calls you and they've gotsomething going on in their
life. Sometimes, what can bepeople's tendency, and I've
certainly done it many times,because someone will be telling
their story, talking about whatthey're going through, and I
(29:45):
might find an opening to say,You know what I've been through,
something very similar. But whatI've done in that moment is, if
I've just hijacked theconversation away from that
person, which is not great, theyjust want to be heard. They
don't want to share. They wantto share their story. My attempt
at empathy at that moment. Isnot great. Instead, what we
should be doing, because, again,that becomes unsolicited, is
(30:07):
using the fact, if I'm thinking,Okay, I've been through this at
some point in my life, I don'thave to introduce that and
hijack the conversation. What Ishould be doing is using that
experience to ask betterquestions and to help them
continue with their story, andhelp to keep it about them. At
some point in time, it's verylikely that that person will
(30:27):
say, hey, Leo, has anything everhappened to you that's similar
to what I'm describing? A matterof fact, it has, but now they've
just given me the stage. Ididn't hijack it from them, and
so it's just simple things likethat that allow for you to
really kind of respect who'sspeaking and how to handle that
conversation in a way that'struly beneficial for them and
(30:50):
not self indulgent. You know,for you,
Agi Keramidas (30:55):
that's very Thank you, very useful. You know,
lesson in communication. I thinkwe all know people like the ones
that you described that, hi,it's well intended,
Leo Bottary (31:07):
you know, I get it, but it's yes, but yes, it
doesn't
Agi Keramidas (31:11):
land. Leo, there is some something specific. I
have a question. There issomeone that comes to my mind,
let's say the person watchingthis conversation or listening
this conversation, and you know,they have done the courses, they
(31:33):
have been to, the retreats, thedeep dives, the books, whatever,
but still are on this seeking ofdeeper fulfilment or purpose. So
my question to you is, how canspecifically peer based learning
(31:55):
move them towards that directionof you know, taking meaningful
action and living morepurposefully. I hope my question
makes sense.
Leo Bottary (32:07):
It really does. In fact, it's very relevant to I've
been an adjunct professor atRutgers for quite some time now.
I was at Seton Hall prior tothat, beginning in 2008 in 2015
I became an adjunct professor atRutgers, and actually with a few
other professors, we each havedifferent groups, if you will,
(32:31):
but I teach this course onpersonal branding, and part of
it begins with a real selfreflection. Who am I? What do I
care about? What am I? What Whatgifts do I have? What difference
can I make in the world? Whatdoes that look like in a way
that's unfettered, you know,from all of the feelings of, you
know, vulnerability or thingslike that, and get them to
(32:53):
identify those things and havesome clarity about that for
themselves, but but put them ina peer group where they talk
about that with one another, andyou create this safe space for
them to be able to have thoseconversations and support one
another in what they do. It'samazing how that goes, and how
incredible people and howgenerous people are with one
(33:14):
another, when you can give themthe opportunity to a engage in
the reflection and be share whatthey're coming up with, and then
it comes down to, okay, now,what do we want to do about it?
And I think it's particularlyimportant for so many of the
graduate students. Of course,they're all different ages, but
let's face it, you know, amajority of them are too far
(33:37):
removed from having graduatedcollege. You know, maybe they
took a couple of years off towork, or maybe they went
straight into graduate school orwhatever. But either way,
they're trying to apply for jobsin the workplace. And too many
people see themselves as kind ofvictims in that process, right?
They see this massive, you know,construct out there and and
(34:00):
they, they, they're trying tofigure out, hey, if someone
could just give me a job, that'dbe great. That's my hope. They
don't think about it in termsof, what do I want to do, where
do I want to work? How do I wantto apply my gifts? And truly,
kind of take a little morecontrol, you know, over that
situation, and have theconfidence to do that. And but I
(34:20):
think it begins with having alevel of clarity. And I think it
begins with practising withothers in terms of sharing what
those aspirations are, whatthose goals are all about, and
maybe what would be required forme to kind of shore up areas
where I could have weaknessesand get better, or areas where I
can double down on my strengths.
And so that exercise alone, Ithink, is really powerful, and
(34:43):
we don't have, you don't have tobe in a graduate school class to
do it. You know, you could put afew of your friends together and
and, you know, three or fourpeople sitting around a table
saying, hey, what do we want tobe doing? Are we are we doing
what we want with our livesright now? And. And and have a
real conversation about that.
And, you know, so I think again,we get back to words like
(35:07):
liberating and empowering andunifying, right when, when you
get into these kinds of things.
And so I think for anyonelistening out there, it does
begin this journey from me towe. Starts with you. It starts
with, you know, it, you know, Ithink when we talked before too,
we were drawing a little bitfrom the book what anyone can
do. And one of the concepts inthere was self help. Doesn't
(35:31):
mean by yourself help, you know?
I mean, we have to work on usfirst. It is a little bit like
the aeroplane when they tellyou, put the oxygen mask on
yourself before trying to helpothers, because if you're not
100% you're not going to be veryuseful to the people around you.
I think it's a very similarsituation here. You know, engage
(35:51):
in that reflection. Be thinkingabout what I can do. Share that
with others. Be of service toothers. Be generous with others
in terms of helping them, youknow, achieve their aspirations
or meet some of theirchallenges. And again, this is
where we are so much bettertogether, because left to our
own devices. You know, I thinkit's a, it's a big, complex
(36:13):
world out there. And I think wecan use, we're back to the word
help. We can use all the help wecan get. So let's, let's, let's
recognise that.
Agi Keramidas (36:26):
I will, you know, highlight once more something
you said earlier about invitinghelp versus needing help. I
think that that struck a chordthere. Leo, where would you like
to direct the listener of theconversation to find out more
(36:47):
about your book and what you do?
Also sure
Leo Bottary (36:51):
you can go to peernovation, dot biz, which is
the website, and of course, anyinformation about the books,
about what peer innovation is,about, how may be relevant to
you or your business, orwhatever that may look like in
any way. Certainly there connectwith me on LinkedIn. You know,
always love to connect withpeople on LinkedIn. And of
(37:12):
course, the book is available onAmazon and anywhere, you know,
books are sold. And I do feellike this second edition book,
particularly the e book, 399,you know, fairly low investment,
I think, in terms of at leastaccessing the content and
thinking about, what can I applyin my life? What can I bring to
others, and what does that looklike? So, yeah, I invite people
(37:35):
to do any of those things or allof the above.
Agi Keramidas (37:40):
Thank you very much. And you know, I was just
thinking right now that it isthis four years that have passed
since our previous conversation.
First of all, they don't feellike that, but the point I
wanted to make was how nice itis and how for me in this
(38:02):
position, when I have aconversation again with someone
after such a long time, whichmeans that the message was
powerful. And you know, havingthis conversation now because we
are both quite different afterthese four years with more grey
(38:23):
hair, as we were saying earlier.
So it is fantastic to have thatand see the difference in the
involvement and have again thisconversation. So having said,
that was probably a verycomplicated way to say, thank
(38:45):
you very much. I appreciate youfor being here and having this
conversation with me, Leo andthe wisdom that you shared. I
will leave it to you for yourparting words. I don't know if
you
Leo Bottary (39:00):
will. I just appreciate you having me. This
was, I think, a wonderfulconversation. Be Kind of
interesting actually, to listenback to the conversation we had
back four years ago. And myguess is that both of us would
be happier with thisconversation than the one we had
back then. And I bet that'strue, you know. So, yeah, so it
makes me kind of want to have alook at that, but it was, you
(39:24):
know, I'm just delighted to behere and appreciate our time
together. So thank you so much.
Agi Keramidas (39:29):
I would like to finish with your parting wisdom
to the listener, someone who haslistened to us for over half an
hour now, what would you tell tohim or her?
Leo Bottary (39:44):
I think when we get up every day, it would be nice
to have clarity about what do Iexpect of myself in terms of how
I deal with others, and how canI be intentional about that,
about whatever that means forme. Because. Having some level
of intentionality and keepingthe values and behaviours that
(40:04):
we hold dear to the forefront,and making sure we're living
those each and every day, Ithink, becomes essential,
because otherwise it becomes tooeasy to have those things go in
the background. You know, we weare exposed to so much content
and so many things that it'sjust easy to move from one thing
to the next to the next to thenext. And I think in many
(40:25):
respects, we have to be thinkingabout, how are we intentional
about what we want fromourselves and the impact we have
on others?
Agi Keramidas (40:41):
I hope you found this episode enlightening. If
you have been resonating withthese conversations and feel
like you are at a crossroads inyour life, I offer one to one
coaching to help you gainclarity and step into your next
chapter with confidence. You ifthat sounds interesting, reach
(41:05):
out to me and let's have aconversation until next time.
Stand Out. Don't fit in.
Have you ever stopped yourself from asking for
help because it felt like youwould be admitting weakness?
Welcome to personal developmentmastery, the podcast that helps
intelligent, busy professionalsdevelop self mastery and
discover their calling so youcan thrive in a fulfilling,
(00:21):
purposeful life. I'm your host.
Agi Keramidas, and this isepisode 506 many of us struggle
with the idea of vulnerability,especially when it comes to
expressing our aspirations orchallenges. In this episode, Leo
Bottary returns to the podcast.
(00:45):
I'm saying returns because hewas a guest back in episode 128
where we talked about peer grouplearning. So this time today, we
talked about why successfulpeople see asking for help as
resourcefulness rather thanweakness, and how you can
(01:09):
reframe your own thinking andyou will also gain simple but
transformative communicationhabits that Improve Self
Awareness and create space forpersonal growth. If you've done
the courses, read the books, butstill feel stuck, this episode
is for you before we dive in. Ifyou have been resonating with
(01:35):
these conversations and feellike you are at a crossroads in
your life, I offer one to onecoaching to help you gain
clarity and step into your nextchapter with confidence. If that
sounds interesting, reach out tome and let's chat now. Let's get
started today.
It is a real pleasure to welcomeLeo Bottary back to the show,
(02:01):
Leo, you are the founder of peerinnovation and a leading voice
on how peer learning cantransform not just leadership,
but entire teams. Your new book,The second edition of peer
innovation, explores how thepowerful dynamics of CEO peer
groups can be brought intoeveryday teams to help them
(02:23):
connect, grow together andperform with greater purpose.
Leo, it's great to have youback. Welcome back. It's been
four years. Can you believe it?
You
Leo Bottary (02:36):
know, it's great to be here. Great to hear your
voice. I thought that I shouldhave had you read the audio
book, you know, just beautifullydone as always, and great to be
here like I says. No one says mylast name quite like you do. So
it's always nice to it's been awhile since I've been on the
show, but really excited to behere. Thank
Agi Keramidas (02:56):
you. Yeah, you're too kind about my voice. I know
it's very, let's say unique. Iwill leave it to that. But you
know, it's great to have youback. And I was looking earlier,
and we first spoke in Episode128 so now that we're speaking,
(03:18):
we're past 500 so it's been, youknow, four years, let's have
Leo Bottary (03:23):
changed for you. My hair is whiter now, you know,
tell
Agi Keramidas (03:27):
me about as my beard is white as well. Yes, I
don't have much hair, but Ithink there is white there also,
what I would like to start,because we will talk about the
power of peer learning and allthe things that you brought
again, into the surface withyour the second edition of your
(03:53):
book, I would like to start, andalso, you know, perhaps connect
us in a way, to that episodefour years ago, one of the
standout ideas that you hadshared at that time was how
accountability in a team isabout personal responsibility,
(04:18):
rather than, you know, top downpressure. So I want to ask you,
since then, how has yourthinking around that evolved?
Has the meaning of personalresponsibility changed for you
in the last few years?
Leo Bottary (04:37):
No, not really. I do think it's about people
accepting personalresponsibility for bringing
their best. It doesn't have tobe top down, but I think there's
a real peer to peer element toit as well. You know, I've been
on teams. For example, I alwaystell a story when I first was
working at Mullen, and today,there it's Mullen low, and I
went to a meeting that waslooking at how. We were going to
(05:00):
approach this new prospect. Andthe people in that meeting were
unbelievably well prepared. Imean, they knew the details
about not only the client andthe competitors, and the history
of the advertising and thepsychographics of the market and
what was going to happen in theeconomy, in that sector over the
next several years and all ofthat. And I came prepared to
(05:21):
that meeting. However, it waskind of a welcome to the NFL
moment for me, if you will. WhenI was like, wow, I was prepared,
but I wasn't Mullen lowprepared. And so what I realised
was that if I'm going to play inthis league, I have to up my
game. I didn't need a boss totell me that. I didn't need
anything, but those peers setthe example for me about what
(05:44):
being prepared in thisenvironment is all about, and
they're dead serious and remainso today, about creating the
best advertising in the world.
And to do that, you've got to beready. And so that was an
extraordinary lesson. I thinkthe same holds true for when I
was in graduate school. Sameholds true from when I've been
on teams or groups or thingslike that, where everyone really
(06:05):
has the capacity to lift eachother up, and if people accept
personal responsibility forthat, if people believe that the
power of we begins with me andthe example I set, and we have
clarity about what we expect ofourselves and others that makes
a big difference. And so, youknow, I would very much say, and
of course, out of that book thatyou're talking about too, I
(06:27):
think the idea was thatsuccessful people tend to ask
for help, right? And we talkedabout this prior to getting on
the air. They don't see askingfor help as a sign of weakness,
they've regarded as an act ofresourcefulness, and because of
that, it puts them in aposition, I think, to be well
equipped to access the resourcesaround them and meet the
(06:49):
challenges that are ahead. Andagain, it doesn't matter if
you're a large corporation, asmall company, among a group of
friends, among all thechallenges that life puts in
front of us, we are much bettertogether.
Agi Keramidas (07:02):
That's great. Let me start with what you just said
about, you know, asking forhelp, not being a weakness, as
many said, but actuallyresourcefulness, which is it's
great reframing for many people.
For someone who is listeningright now might be a bit not
seeing it like that and beinghesitant to ask for for help.
(07:25):
What would you say? How can oneshift that lens and look more of
asking for help us?
Resourcefulness, as you said, Ilove that. That word,
Leo Bottary (07:39):
you know, this is such a big issue that I
literally have a webinardedicated strictly on that
subject. And it begins by askingpeople, how does asking for help
make you feel? And I'll useMentimeter, and we'll create a
word cloud instantly with thefolks on the line. And it will
(07:59):
be, I'll get words like helplessand stupid and inadequate and
all of these things. Most of thethings that people respond with
are really negative. Theybelieve that asking for help is
again, puts them in a feelingthat they're incompetent and
they're not up to what they needto or that they they think about
(08:20):
it in terms of needing someone'shelp versus inviting someone's
help. And I think there's someshifts there that can be made
with regard to all of thosethings, you know, and that's
part of the journey I try totake them on in that webinar, is
to go from seeing it as thatsign of weakness to regarding it
as something that successfulpeople do. You know we when we
(08:45):
turn on our television or lookonline or watch any kind of a
programme, and everything'spersonified, right? Everything's
simplified. Everything is aboutthis person accomplished this
well, this person may have beenthe leader and may have done
some great things, but greatthings are accomplished by
collectives. Great. There's alot of people involved. That
person would be nowhere withouttheir team. So and those team
(09:10):
members who come together bringdifferent gifts to the table.
And so if you are not getting toknow these people well,
understand their gifts, figureout how you can really help one
another, right? That that'sreally what it's all about. And
when you kind of see it thatway, it's almost like the the
the old story that you know,used to people used to always
(09:30):
make fun of men, you know,because they would go into some,
you know, town that they'venever been to, and they didn't
want to ask for directions,right? Because, because they
felt like, okay, but thesepeople live here. Why in the
world wouldn't you say, Hey,where's X Street? Where's X
address? Where's this company?
Someone to ride around all overthe place looking for stuff,
probably endangering pedestriansand other people? Is it not
(09:53):
paying attention to what'shappening on the road? So, you
know, I think it's justpractical. People you know, to
just say, you know. And again, Ithink there's something to be
said for how we ask for thathelp. So I typically will
mention to people, don'tnecessarily express it as I need
your help, which kind of putsyou in that position, but I
(10:13):
invite your help. I want yourhelp. This will be better with
your input. You know, it's notthat I can't do it, it's that
it'll be better if you'reinvolved, you know, in some way.
And while, on one hand, we thinkthat, you know, and there's a
lot of things that go throughour minds. Now, if we've asked
someone help, now we owe them.
Or if we ask something, somebodyfor help, we lose control. You
(10:36):
know, all kinds of things likethat. But I think the reality is
that if you're concerned aboutthe outcome, if you're concerned
about what your ever it isyou're trying to do and try to
make it better. I think seekingthe help and assistance of
others is a really good idea.
And if you send that as aninvitation, and by the way, it
makes you feel good, right? If Icall you and I say, Agi, I would
love to have your help withthis, you know, that kind of
(10:57):
says, Wow, he thinks a lot of methat I can contribute to making
whatever he's trying to dobetter. And I think that's a
nice thing. And I think the morethat we can treat one another
that way and work together inthat way, I think the better.
Agi Keramidas (11:14):
Thank you. And I really liked this
differentiation, which yourepeated a few times between
needing help and inviting help,because it really I think he
gave me exactly the kind ofanswer I was looking for in
terms of shifting a lens,because that is a lens looking
at US need or invite. It makes ahuge difference. I uh, you
(11:44):
earlier on, and I'll come backto that also you were saying
about the peers that you saidthat you had prepared, but not
to that level for thatenvironment. And our peers
definitely will regulate ourstandards. People are around us
generally and in the war andwork and at home, everywhere
(12:08):
will,
Leo Bottary (12:09):
yeah, we can. We can be what we tolerate. You
know? So
Agi Keramidas (12:15):
Exactly, exactly, exactly. One other thing, Leo,
you mentioned it earlier, verybriefly, but I wanted to ask
you, because it is a core themein your book, and it is that the
move from me to we, which youyou said earlier, so I want to
(12:37):
ask in practical terms, give usan example or some principle of
how that is applied.
Leo Bottary (12:48):
So one of the stories I tell in the book is
the fact that and I describe itas my journey, my personal
journey for me to wait. So Igraduated college in 1983 I
didn't go back to graduateschool until 2006 now, when I
was in college, education waskind of a solo pursuit, right?
I'd sit there and I'd take notesand the professor would talk,
(13:08):
and I'd, you know, write papersand take quizzes and exams and
all that you're shielding yourpaper from other people. You
know, it was very much that kindof environment, yeah. So next
thing, you know, fast forward to2006 and I'm part of a cohort.
Now. I'm part of this learningteam where it's all set up for
collaborative learning now, ascollaborative learning would
have been called cheating, youknow, basically 20 plus years
(13:30):
earlier, and here I am now inthis environment where we're
supposed to help one another.
And the reality is that in thatenvironment, we learned most
from one another. I was workedwith an incredible group of mid
to senior level executives,amazing people, second from the
material and third from theprofessors. And by the way, the
professors wouldn't dispute thatcharacterization at all. It's
(13:51):
the very thing they were tryingto set up that was their intent,
and that was their belief. Andthey understand that we do learn
better when we learn together,and largely because of two
reasons, a we can help oneanother absorb that information
better, right? We know based oncollaborative learning theory
that you know, if you and I, forexample, were to read an 800
(14:12):
word blog post, we're going toremember, if you think about it
in terms of the Ebbinghausforgetting curve, right? About
28% of it for about 24 to 48hours. If read it a second time,
the number goes to 46% put agroup together after having read
that one time, and now all of asudden, we talk about it, we
grapple with the concepts, weshare ideas. Now the number goes
to 69% it basically createsneural pathways for us that
(14:36):
allow us to engage and retaininformation better. That's
number one. The second piece isthat usually how we engage one
another provides us in acompletely different set of
lessons. And this is where wehave kind of intentional
learning, right, taking incontent by watching a video,
hearing a speaker reading abook, or whatever it may happen
to be. But then there's alsocollateral. Learning. And that
(14:59):
comes from John Dewey in the1930s where he basically said,
you know those lessons that wereceived directly, those are
really important. But you knowwhat the real lessons are? What
we learn from, how we learn so,how we engage one another.
Teaches us things like, how dowe be more present? How do we be
listen more carefully? How do weask more precise questions? And
I think best of all, what itteaches us, because every one of
(15:23):
us has the the tendency when wehear someone make a statement
about something or do something,we do one of three things. We
rush to judgement, we jump toconclusions, we make assumptions
about where this is all comingfrom. Okay, if you can actually
take a breath, lean into yourcuriosity, ask questions and
listen for understanding, asopposed to trying to be right,
(15:47):
that makes an enormousdifference in terms of how we
can see one another and how wecan see the world. So I think
that the impact of this type oflearning, which I experienced in
graduate school. And of course,you know, quickly fast forward
by graduated in in 2008 by 2010I was working at Vistage, which
(16:07):
assembles and facilitates peeradvisory groups in 40 countries
around the world for CEOs,business leaders and all of
that. And really got some real,firsthand, you know, experience
there. And of course, sinceworked with, you know, so many
other organisations around theworld who, who lead these
groups. And then you see howeasily these basic principles
(16:29):
that we've been talking about,which really in our discussion
so far, haven't been corporatespecific, if you think about it,
they're just general life stuff.
How this applies. If we canbring this and be more
intentional about bringing thisto our teams, it makes all the
difference in the world. And itis, and it is basic stuff. And
people say, Well, this seems alot like common sense. I'm like,
(16:50):
well, it really is. I wish weall just did it more often. You
know, it's, it's alwaysinteresting. If you think about
it, if you you go, let's sayyou're watching a football game
on TV, and I'm talking to Markin football, I guess, is my
example. But, you know, athalftime, they'll interview the
coach and they'll say, Well,what do you need to do, you
know, to get back into this gamein the second half? Well, it's
(17:11):
typically not some grandstrategy. We have to block, we
have to tackle, we have to holdon to the football and don't
turn it over. All of these basicthings that it all comes down
to, you know, doing those thingswell that is going to make a
difference between you comingback in a football game or not.
And I think that's very much thesame in life.
Agi Keramidas (17:35):
Thank you. I agree very much that these
principles are irrelevant ofwhether you are in a corporate
environment or you are at homehaving a conversation with your
children or your spouse, becausethe principles apply the same
what you were saying earlierabout not judging or responding
(17:59):
out of the need to prove yousomething rather than
understanding. These are allqualities that are very much
applicable always, I think,taking a moment to listen what
the other person say, and havingthe awareness to process that
(18:21):
before you give your response, Ithink it is, you know, a skill.
All these are skills for, Iwould say, personal development.
I mean, since the podcast ispersonal development, it's, I
think they are all, you know,expanded and you we can use
(18:43):
them. Yeah,
Leo Bottary (18:44):
we're not really taught, if you think about it,
to listen for understanding. Imean, think about the fact that
when I talk with most people andI ask them, Did you grow up in a
household where you werediscouraged, let's say, by your
parents to avoid conversationsin social situations about
politics and religion,absolutely everybody, every hand
of the room will go up, yes. Sonow, when you think about that,
(19:07):
we are now set up to beincapable of having those
conversations, because webelieve it's going to be a
pitched battle. We believe it'sabout who's right, who isn't,
and all this other kind ofstuff. Think about if we were
taught at a much younger age tobe able to have those
conversations. Now, I get whyparents do this. Basically,
parents don't want their kind ofnascent political or religious
(19:28):
views to be under attack byother people and and feel like
their kid isn't necessarilyequipped to have that
conversation or whatever. Andthey, in some respects, are kind
of productive in in that way,right or wrong. I think that's a
lot of the reason for it, butunfortunately, it puts us in a
position again, where we are notwired now to be able to have
(19:50):
those conversations in a waythat is really about, Hey, I
just want to understand whereyour politics comes from. I want
to understand the role faithplays in your life. And what
that means for you. It doesn'tmean I have to agree with it. It
doesn't mean any of thosethings. It just means I'm going
to be curious, ask questions,and get an understanding and
(20:10):
respect other people and wherethey come from. And I think if
we could do a better job atthat, and start this process for
a lot younger. You know, itmight be helpful as well.
Agi Keramidas (20:25):
I think it is our duty to do this and every other
thing in our power to be betterpeople,
Leo Bottary (20:35):
to grow. You know, when I bring up this thing about
little kids, my granddaughter,who's in the second grade, is in
a classroom where the teacher,her name is Shanna roll, does a
thing every morning with thekids, and it's called clearings
and celebration. And so theybegin every day. Does anyone
have anything to clear? And theidea here would be the kid might
(21:00):
say, Yeah, my dog is sick, or Icut myself yesterday, and it's
kind of bothering me, orsomething is kind of going on.
And people listen to thatstudent and they get to say,
okay, just want to let you knowthis is going on. And the idea
is that despite what I've gotgoing on, as big or small as
that may be, I am going to bringmy best self today, but you
(21:23):
least you know what's happeningand what's going on with that
person. Then with celebrations,it becomes, Hey, I just finished
a book, or it's my mom'sbirthday today, or something
like that, and you get thatlift. You know of everyone about
what's going in their life andwhy they may be, you know, where
they are, but it's a real lessonin empathy, in meeting people
(21:44):
where they are, in understandingand not making fun of other
people. And you know, I mean, itsets an unbelievable tone, not
just for that classroom, but Ithink it sets a foundation for
those kids in life that isextraordinary, and I hope,
continues to be practised as shemoves in other grades. I'm not
sure she isn't the only teacherin that school who does this,
(22:05):
but I thought it was anextraordinary practice. I've
heard about it before, but Inever heard it implemented in a
second grade classroom quite theway she does it and how
incredibly effective it is. Soyou know, again, I think, you
know, kids have a real capacityto be able to do so much, you
know, and have thoseconversations and really listen
(22:26):
and care about one another. And,you know, I think that's a
really great lesson that she'sbringing forward there,
Agi Keramidas (22:32):
definitely. And you know what came to me when
you were describing this game? Ican because their children, I
suppose they can also, theyprobably see it as a game,
rather than you and I now lookat it very seriously and
analytically, but I think oneother thing that it teaches and
(22:54):
allows them is the fact that theenvironment is Safe to express.
You know, their learning, whichmight be some vulnerable moment
celebration, which, you know,sometimes you might wonder, is
that really worth celebrating?
So it is. It means this abilityto because when you are in a
(23:16):
safe environment like this, andyou can express really what you
want without being judged. Ithink that will make a huge
difference, not only furtherdown the line, but always. I
think,
Leo Bottary (23:30):
you know, one of the things that's interesting
that you say too is it speaks tothe idea that we can not only
feel vulnerable when we'resharing challenges that are
happening in our lives, but Ithink just as much, maybe more
so trying to share ouraspirations, because how
vulnerable it is, right? Like,if I shared an aspiration that I
(23:51):
want to achieve this in my life,and someone's looking at me
like, really, like, I don'tthink that's going to happen,
you know? I mean, howdevastating that would be,
right? So people tend to holdthat stuff in. They don't want
to put themselves out there thatthey're looking to do. Because,
unfortunately, you know, theyfeel that a reaction, not by
everybody, but at least by somepeople, might not be, Hey, how
(24:11):
can we help you make thathappen? It's, I don't know about
that could be, could be a highbar for you, you know. So it's,
it's interesting, and I thinkwe've got to be, try to be good
at both, I think. And this istrue in with CEO peer advisory
groups, you're right up there,you talk about, hey, what are
(24:33):
your aspirations for yourself orthis company, or for what you
want to contribute to the world?
That's a vulnerable place to go,but yet, I think it's really
important. And you know, at theend of the day, we can't help
one another if we don't knowwhat help we need. You know, I
couldn't be of assistance to youif I don't know what you're
(24:54):
looking for, and vice versa. AndI think having line of sight and
visibility, i. About what wewant out of life. You know,
becomes really important.
Agi Keramidas (25:05):
You know, I have very personal knowledge of or
experience of what you weredescribing, because 10 years
ago, I was that person thatwould not share aspirations or
problems because, you know, fearof judgement and this and that.
I've done quite a lot of, youknow, work on that to figure it
(25:29):
out, but I have been there. Iknow that's very well, and I
know how liberating and howpretty much the phrase that
comes to mind, it's the doorsthat open actually, when you
speak and you say what's on yourmind, because, as you said,
unless you say, people don'tknow what is going they can't
(25:52):
help you. They can't share withyou their whatever it is unless,
unless you say it. So I
Leo Bottary (26:01):
think liberating is a great word, and I think it can
be cathartic for a lot of folks.
You know, a lot of times when wetalk about people bringing
challenges or aspirations ofwhatever, even in the context of
a CEO peer group, I wouldsuggest to them that to take
control of the situation interms of being clear with people
(26:22):
about what you're looking for.
It may be that you just want tobe heard, that you just want
them to listen to you for 10 or15 minutes. There's something on
your mind, and a lot of times,people won't bring certain
things to a group becausethey're kind of not ready to
deal with it. They get so muchgoing on in their life right
now. They just don't have thebandwidth to feel like they
(26:43):
could put themselves out therewith a group of people now be
expected to actually have todeal with it, right? So, but if
you can actually give somebodythe space and the grace just to
talk out loud about something,you'd be amazed how often that
person will come back a couplemonths later and say, remember
that thing I brought up a fewmonths ago. I'm actually ready
to tackle that now. Or secondly,they may just say they're not
(27:06):
looking for advice, but theywould love to know if anyone has
any experiences that align withthe challenge that they just
described, or aligned with thegoal that they're trying to
achieve. People around the tablewithout overtly trying to make
very direct connections. Justsay, hey, based on what I've
heard, here's here's was mychallenge or and here's what I
(27:26):
did, and here's what the resultwas. And now I kind of collect
those things around the room,and I feel like, okay, here's
what resonated with me, andmaybe here's what I feel is
right for me in my situation andwhat I want to do. And then
third, maybe you, you would loveall the advice anyone's willing
to give you, because you don'thave a clue, you know, and
you're just like, Hey, bring it.
But at least you're invitingthat now you are giving them the
(27:47):
stage to do that. And the onlything I do suggest for the
advice givers, though, is don'tgive advice like most people
give it, which is, you know whatyou should do, you know what I
would do if I were you. It'slike, you know, you don't even
own that. You know you're onyour heels. It's a directive.
It's not anything other thanthat, but just to imagine
yourself as if you were passingout appetisers at a wedding
(28:12):
reception. You know, everyone'sclustered together and they've
got their drinks, and someonegoes by and there's a little
tray, and they just kind of comenear the group and people. You
take one, you don't take one, noharm, no foul, no big deal. And
if you think about giving advicethat way, it might be, you know,
something as easy as, you know,Agi. Have you considered such
and such, or have you thoughtabout x or, you know, you just
(28:34):
kind of floated out there, youknow, you're not directing
anyone to do anything. You'rejust putting something out there
and allowing them to actuallytake it, and allowing them to
think to themselves, I can takethis, and I can own this. And I
think that, you know, again,those kinds of things can help
really open up a conversation.
If we're willing to be clearwith people about, I just want
(28:56):
to be heard. I would love yourexperiences. I'll take all the
advice you got, whatever ithappens to be. And again, as
advice givers, I think, bemindful to make sure that that
lands in a way that the personcan actually accept it and take
it on as their own.
Agi Keramidas (29:13):
That's a big topic on its own, for sure. You
know, giving us solicited.
That's the word that came to mymind. Advice, right? Yeah,
Leo Bottary (29:24):
don't give don't do that. Be wait to be asked. You
know, I think the other thingtoo, is we can get into
conversations with people prettyfrequently. Let's say someone
calls you and they've gotsomething going on in their
life. Sometimes, what can bepeople's tendency, and I've
certainly done it many times,because someone will be telling
their story, talking about whatthey're going through, and I
(29:45):
might find an opening to say,You know what I've been through,
something very similar. But whatI've done in that moment is, if
I've just hijacked theconversation away from that
person, which is not great, theyjust want to be heard. They
don't want to share. They wantto share their story. My attempt
at empathy at that moment. Isnot great. Instead, what we
should be doing, because, again,that becomes unsolicited, is
(30:07):
using the fact, if I'm thinking,Okay, I've been through this at
some point in my life, I don'thave to introduce that and
hijack the conversation. What Ishould be doing is using that
experience to ask betterquestions and to help them
continue with their story, andhelp to keep it about them. At
some point in time, it's verylikely that that person will
(30:27):
say, hey, Leo, has anything everhappened to you that's similar
to what I'm describing? A matterof fact, it has, but now they've
just given me the stage. Ididn't hijack it from them, and
so it's just simple things likethat that allow for you to
really kind of respect who'sspeaking and how to handle that
conversation in a way that'struly beneficial for them and
(30:50):
not self indulgent. You know,for you,
Agi Keramidas (30:55):
that's very Thank you, very useful. You know,
lesson in communication. I thinkwe all know people like the ones
that you described that, hi,it's well intended,
Leo Bottary (31:07):
you know, I get it, but it's yes, but yes, it
doesn't
Agi Keramidas (31:11):
land. Leo, there is some something specific. I
have a question. There issomeone that comes to my mind,
let's say the person watchingthis conversation or listening
this conversation, and you know,they have done the courses, they
(31:33):
have been to, the retreats, thedeep dives, the books, whatever,
but still are on this seeking ofdeeper fulfilment or purpose. So
my question to you is, how canspecifically peer based learning
(31:55):
move them towards that directionof you know, taking meaningful
action and living morepurposefully. I hope my question
makes sense.
Leo Bottary (32:07):
It really does. In fact, it's very relevant to I've
been an adjunct professor atRutgers for quite some time now.
I was at Seton Hall prior tothat, beginning in 2008 in 2015
I became an adjunct professor atRutgers, and actually with a few
other professors, we each havedifferent groups, if you will,
(32:31):
but I teach this course onpersonal branding, and part of
it begins with a real selfreflection. Who am I? What do I
care about? What am I? What Whatgifts do I have? What difference
can I make in the world? Whatdoes that look like in a way
that's unfettered, you know,from all of the feelings of, you
know, vulnerability or thingslike that, and get them to
(32:53):
identify those things and havesome clarity about that for
themselves, but but put them ina peer group where they talk
about that with one another, andyou create this safe space for
them to be able to have thoseconversations and support one
another in what they do. It'samazing how that goes, and how
incredible people and howgenerous people are with one
(33:14):
another, when you can give themthe opportunity to a engage in
the reflection and be share whatthey're coming up with, and then
it comes down to, okay, now,what do we want to do about it?
And I think it's particularlyimportant for so many of the
graduate students. Of course,they're all different ages, but
let's face it, you know, amajority of them are too far
(33:37):
removed from having graduatedcollege. You know, maybe they
took a couple of years off towork, or maybe they went
straight into graduate school orwhatever. But either way,
they're trying to apply for jobsin the workplace. And too many
people see themselves as kind ofvictims in that process, right?
They see this massive, you know,construct out there and and
(34:00):
they, they, they're trying tofigure out, hey, if someone
could just give me a job, that'dbe great. That's my hope. They
don't think about it in termsof, what do I want to do, where
do I want to work? How do I wantto apply my gifts? And truly,
kind of take a little morecontrol, you know, over that
situation, and have theconfidence to do that. And but I
(34:20):
think it begins with having alevel of clarity. And I think it
begins with practising withothers in terms of sharing what
those aspirations are, whatthose goals are all about, and
maybe what would be required forme to kind of shore up areas
where I could have weaknessesand get better, or areas where I
can double down on my strengths.
And so that exercise alone, Ithink, is really powerful, and
(34:43):
we don't have, you don't have tobe in a graduate school class to
do it. You know, you could put afew of your friends together and
and, you know, three or fourpeople sitting around a table
saying, hey, what do we want tobe doing? Are we are we doing
what we want with our livesright now? And. And and have a
real conversation about that.
And, you know, so I think again,we get back to words like
(35:07):
liberating and empowering andunifying, right when, when you
get into these kinds of things.
And so I think for anyonelistening out there, it does
begin this journey from me towe. Starts with you. It starts
with, you know, it, you know, Ithink when we talked before too,
we were drawing a little bitfrom the book what anyone can
do. And one of the concepts inthere was self help. Doesn't
(35:31):
mean by yourself help, you know?
I mean, we have to work on usfirst. It is a little bit like
the aeroplane when they tellyou, put the oxygen mask on
yourself before trying to helpothers, because if you're not
100% you're not going to be veryuseful to the people around you.
I think it's a very similarsituation here. You know, engage
(35:51):
in that reflection. Be thinkingabout what I can do. Share that
with others. Be of service toothers. Be generous with others
in terms of helping them, youknow, achieve their aspirations
or meet some of theirchallenges. And again, this is
where we are so much bettertogether, because left to our
own devices. You know, I thinkit's a, it's a big, complex
(36:13):
world out there. And I think wecan use, we're back to the word
help. We can use all the help wecan get. So let's, let's, let's
recognise that.
Agi Keramidas (36:26):
I will, you know, highlight once more something
you said earlier about invitinghelp versus needing help. I
think that that struck a chordthere. Leo, where would you like
to direct the listener of theconversation to find out more
(36:47):
about your book and what you do?
Also sure
Leo Bottary (36:51):
you can go to peernovation, dot biz, which is
the website, and of course, anyinformation about the books,
about what peer innovation is,about, how may be relevant to
you or your business, orwhatever that may look like in
any way. Certainly there connectwith me on LinkedIn. You know,
always love to connect withpeople on LinkedIn. And of
(37:12):
course, the book is available onAmazon and anywhere, you know,
books are sold. And I do feellike this second edition book,
particularly the e book, 399,you know, fairly low investment,
I think, in terms of at leastaccessing the content and
thinking about, what can I applyin my life? What can I bring to
others, and what does that looklike? So, yeah, I invite people
(37:35):
to do any of those things or allof the above.
Agi Keramidas (37:40):
Thank you very much. And you know, I was just
thinking right now that it isthis four years that have passed
since our previous conversation.
First of all, they don't feellike that, but the point I
wanted to make was how nice itis and how for me in this
(38:02):
position, when I have aconversation again with someone
after such a long time, whichmeans that the message was
powerful. And you know, havingthis conversation now because we
are both quite different afterthese four years with more grey
(38:23):
hair, as we were saying earlier.
So it is fantastic to have thatand see the difference in the
involvement and have again thisconversation. So having said,
that was probably a verycomplicated way to say, thank
(38:45):
you very much. I appreciate youfor being here and having this
conversation with me, Leo andthe wisdom that you shared. I
will leave it to you for yourparting words. I don't know if
you
Leo Bottary (39:00):
will. I just appreciate you having me. This
was, I think, a wonderfulconversation. Be Kind of
interesting actually, to listenback to the conversation we had
back four years ago. And myguess is that both of us would
be happier with thisconversation than the one we had
back then. And I bet that'strue, you know. So, yeah, so it
makes me kind of want to have alook at that, but it was, you
(39:24):
know, I'm just delighted to behere and appreciate our time
together. So thank you so much.
Agi Keramidas (39:29):
I would like to finish with your parting wisdom
to the listener, someone who haslistened to us for over half an
hour now, what would you tell tohim or her?
Leo Bottary (39:44):
I think when we get up every day, it would be nice
to have clarity about what do Iexpect of myself in terms of how
I deal with others, and how canI be intentional about that,
about whatever that means forme. Because. Having some level
of intentionality and keepingthe values and behaviours that
(40:04):
we hold dear to the forefront,and making sure we're living
those each and every day, Ithink, becomes essential,
because otherwise it becomes tooeasy to have those things go in
the background. You know, we weare exposed to so much content
and so many things that it'sjust easy to move from one thing
to the next to the next to thenext. And I think in many
(40:25):
respects, we have to be thinkingabout, how are we intentional
about what we want fromourselves and the impact we have
on others?
Agi Keramidas (40:41):
I hope you found this episode enlightening. If
you have been resonating withthese conversations and feel
like you are at a crossroads inyour life, I offer one to one
coaching to help you gainclarity and step into your next
chapter with confidence. You ifthat sounds interesting, reach
(41:05):
out to me and let's have aconversation until next time.
Stand Out. Don't fit in.
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