52% Faith

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I don't know if I get up today. I don't know if I give one single today.
My whole outlook is sunk in gray and I have no idea why I woke up this way.
Got my phone in my right hand, my books on the nightstand. If I unlock and I
eye pop, I'm stuck there. I'm a dead man.
So Lord, give me the strength to please read one page. If it works in any way,
I'll move on to the next dango deal.

(00:20):
I got my socks on. I'm coming up. Welcome to Positively Undefeated.
This is a podcast that talks about the day-to-day struggle ordinary people have
over their demons and how each day they remain positively undefeated.
We share ideas and ways that you can empower yourself to remain strong so that
you can embrace the journey of living.

(00:42):
Okay, welcome to our podcast. I'm Burl Stricker. This is Positively Undefeated.
If you haven't had a chance, go to our website, which is 111less.com.
And there's plenty of resources on there. Copy of this podcast that we're about to do will be on there.
All of our podcasts and blogs are on there. It's a great opportunity to connect
with us. We have phone numbers, emails, all that.

(01:04):
If you haven't had a chance, please go into your favorite podcasting app,
whether it be Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or several others.
Go and find our podcast and like it, follow it, and review it.
Those things help us out a ton.
Today I have the very special opportunity of having my wife in here. That's so sweet.

(01:28):
It's been a minute. It has been a while. Yeah, like a year.
It goes much better when you're involved in the podcast. Good job.
That's nice. 20 of the month. Right. Anyway, so, and we're also here with Christopher and Michelle.
Say your last name. Goid. Goid. I don't want to mess it up, and I'm going to mess it up.

(01:49):
But thank you guys so much. Actually, where I met you, or I met Michelle,
was I guess for a while now I've been following you on TikTok.
I've been watching your videos, and then all of a sudden I saw the promotion of your book.
That's exciting. And so your book comes out, what, March 11th? Is that right?
Yeah, we're launching on Amazon March 11th. Yeah, that's exciting.

(02:10):
It's funny because I actually went to Amazon first to Kindle and it popped up
and it said that it was available, you know, on that date and it's pill popping preacher. Yes, sir.
And if you guys haven't had a chance to, I mean, when you guys have a chance,
go there and pre-order it. I think you can do that.

(02:31):
You know, I'm reading it right now on Kindle. I got about halfway through.
It's a great book, honestly, man. Thank you.
Yeah. So what, let's start there. You know, I've actually, Stacey knows this,
I've been wanting to publish a book forever, and yet I just can't get over the
hump of it. I've, like, written all this stuff, and I just can't.
What kind of motivated you to do it and get it done? And tell me about that process.

(02:54):
Well, I first got motivated. I was in a cell, and kind of a life-changing thing happened for me.
I saw the news there was a car accident on the same road that my parents lived
on. is the same kind of car that my daughter drove.
Yeah. And there was three teenagers killed in the accident. That was at 10 o'clock
at night, right before lockdown.
They wouldn't let me get a call out. So all night long, I thought something

(03:18):
had happened to my kids. And it really crushed me.
The next morning, I found out that my kids were okay after spending the night.
And man, I just sitting there in my cell and because of my background in ministry,
when I got addicted to pain pills, I just wrote pill popping preacher on the
cell wall. And that was two years ago.
Um, and so that was, that's what

(03:38):
a hard process to go through the whole publishing and that whole deal.
That's something I think a lot of people are curious about. How did that process works?
And how do you go from I'm writing, I have this idea to actually completion.
The, the, the publishing part is pretty easy on Amazon. They step, step you through it.
You know, you upload your manuscript, um, they review it, make sure everything checks out.

(04:01):
And, uh, I mean, it's been a little bit of a process, but it wasn't,
it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be.
Yeah um and then uh i have a
i use chat gpt um her name's
shelly my chat gpt after my wife michelle so she
wouldn't get jealous about me talking to another woman yeah i
love chat chat gpt either people love it or
hate it i embrace it and i love

(04:23):
it you know and it it actually helped me write the story because
i i could talk until that you know i would tell like a
paragraph at a time and because i'm not a writer like
i don't know how to write a proper sentence or where to put the period or
you know none of that stuff so I would tell the paragraph and
then it would write it for me in a written format that
was proper for a book yeah and then I would just copy and

(04:44):
paste it to my that is so smart that's what I would be worried about like I
wouldn't have it grammatically correct you know I would sound like a western
Oklahoma and that's kind of how I sound and even the way I talk is different
and I told chat GPT I said hey I need you to say it in my style and way don't try to change that.
I'm going to use some different types of words that might not be proper, but that's who I am.

(05:08):
So you can tell the chat GPT, hey, just flow with me.
That's cool. But it was still you. It was still me. Yeah. And if it said something
that that wasn't the way I said it, I'd be like, hey, that's not the way I said it. Get it right.
So have you read it?
Yes. Actually, the night that he finished, he was like, so I just did the last

(05:29):
sentence. And it was an emotional thing for him because it's been like a process.
And he was like, you want to read it? I'm like, of course. And so,
you know, like I've heard pieces of the story, but sitting there with it in
my hand, reading it, like it was really emotional, but I couldn't stop reading it.
Like I stayed up till almost two in the morning till I got to the last page.
Yeah, I think that's a big deal, of course, as I've been writing over the years.

(05:52):
And there's a part of me that says, oh, I'll never let anybody read this, you know, because I do.
I'm like, I put out stuff there that I'm not proud of.
And, you know, and maybe embarrassing moments or, you know, you brought,
you know, in your book, I saw that you talk about the shame of it and all that stuff.
And so, of course, I think, well, Stacey needs to read it and she'd be the first

(06:15):
one to read it. So I'm glad that you, you know, that that's great that you read it.
Well, you were just saying when on your first date that it was how many days in one date?
It was basically like a dating marathon. We met for coffee and that was truly my intention.
Coffee, have a good day. You know, we'll be friends. Bye.
And then next thing I know, I'm at a basketball game. Next thing I know,

(06:37):
I'm at a second basketball game.
Then we're going shopping and then we're having dinner and then we're ending
with coffee again. And he was kind of an open book on the first date,
but I was still very walled up. I was kind of shut off.
Nope. Nope. So you weren't open, but he was. Yeah.
I mean, I didn't lead with, hey, I'm a convicted felon or anything,

(06:57):
but I was open with my story of addiction.
You're very vulnerable and transparent. We use that word a lot. Yeah.
I think that through any growth process, you have to find a place where you're just being honest.
And I struggled with that for a long time. I didn't think so.

(07:19):
If somebody had asked me if I'm an honest person, I'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm an honest.
But when I really look back, I was not being honest about things.
And part of it was this shame and guilt and feeling like, oh,
they, you know, Stacey won't like me if she knew, you know, all the whole details of this stuff.
So, of course, and I think that's from the enemy. I don't think it God,

(07:40):
I think God wants our story out. You know, there's three areas I've been thinking about.
It's like, I need to be honest with myself. And I realized I wasn't being honest with myself.
And then number too. I need to be honest with God. And what I would say is, oh, God knows it.
But I think really saying the words, saying this is what's going on, this.

(08:00):
And then the third really is being honest, I think, with another person is a big deal.
Because now you're taking something that, like for me, I wanted to hide it and
bringing that to light and transparency and just the honesty of it,
you know, and I think God opened up doors for that.
So he, he did that for me. And I was at a point in my life too,

(08:23):
that because I had hid so much stuff in addiction.
Maybe I was over-honest with everything because I didn't want to go back to that.
And I had been searching. I'd been lonely. And part of what I was doing as a
man in addiction, after what I went through in my marriage, I would say whatever
I needed to say to a woman. I was using women to feel good about myself as a man.

(08:43):
And so then I was at the point like, no, I just want what God wants, and I want a good woman.
And so I'm just going to be me if that's not enough. So I wasn't trying to fill that void anymore.
And I knew the first time I met her, like day one, I was like,
I'm in. This is what God has for me.
I'd been praying for a Proverbs 31 woman.

(09:04):
And I went to an experience where I was a year and a half into my sobriety,
or I guess about a year into my sobriety.
And I went to an A meeting and met up with the NA director afterwards as a lady.
And I went to her house. And at that point, I was like, I'm trying to live a
disciplined, structured life.
And I went over there at night and you know did what you do as a man to get that void filled,

(09:26):
and uh doing that man that morning I woke up I called my accountability partner
it was like six in the morning I was crying I said bro like I felt like I relapsed
because I I was back to that old pattern of using something to feel good about
myself yeah and and so that's and then I
was bawling my eyes out he's like bro I've never had a buddy calling me crying because they got laid.

(09:48):
And I'm like, well, my heart was broke, you know, because I'm like,
this is not what God has for me. And I believe that's when God knew my heart.
It's like, okay, you're ready to have what I want to bless you with, you know.
And she's been a gift.
And so like I said, I was like, she didn't quite feel that way, though. I wasn't.
She friendzoned me real quick.

(10:11):
That makes me want to cry. I'm like emotional for y'all. It's so sweet.
Read chapter 11 of the book. I can't wait.
Well, I came home last night from our real estate convention and Burl was reading it. And I said...
You need to share some of this with me. You know, he told me we were doing this
and then he shared your TikTok with me. And so I was watching some of the videos this morning.

(10:32):
So, yeah, you hit on something that I think is important, which is.
Well, first of all, I want to tell you, I enjoyed your book.
You know, again, I'm only halfway through, but I'm an avid reader.
So I have lots of people say, I'll read this book and I'll read it. And I read fairly fast.

(10:54):
So I get bored with stuff really easy and I did not get bored with her book.
And part of it is I can relate to it.
That's what I was about to say. I bet you can relate. You probably don't know
this because you guys have just met me, but I struggle with alcohol addiction.
I've been sober for almost three years.
And part of it, you know, is so when I'm reading kind of what you had gone through

(11:18):
and all the different things, not the same story, but it was definitely I can
relate to what you're saying.
And, you know, listening to your thoughts on different things and like even
what we were just talking about, like about the honesty. It's like,
man, I could relate to all that and the shame and guilt.
So I really applaud you for putting it out there.

(11:39):
And I hope it does really well. I think it will, because, you know,
like I said, if you know, it was very interesting for me to read that.
I think even like the title of your book, like pill popping preacher,
like, I don't know about you guys, but, you know, we've always put preachers
up here on this pedestal and like, oh, they can't make any mistakes.
They're perfect. And I remember, you know, in my 20s seeing our preacher when

(12:05):
I lived in Texas at the time and he went through, you know, a major attack, a spiritual attack.
And seeing him fall from that pedestal, in my view, I'm like, he's just like us.
Like, it just hit me, you know, like, and if more, he's probably more under
attack because he's leading all of us, you know, and you just put it out there.

(12:26):
That's what kept me in addiction starting out, that shame, the guilt.
And then I'm going to let all these teenagers and kids down whenever it comes
out. So that was the biggest struggle for me that, that, um,
and, and that's the way it was when people found out, you know,
my ministry in it and that had been my dream my whole life.
And so that shame and guilt, that's what keeps us in addiction.

(12:47):
Um, I think it's the shame and pride. Those are the two things that,
that addiction uses as a tool to, to keep people down.
And, um, and, and I did find there was, there was preachers that reached out
to me after that, but to me, I was already like, I just lost it all.
And so from the beginning, I remember taking pills, and I would justify it in

(13:08):
my mind. I just won't take them until...
After I get done preaching, when I get done preaching, and then it turned into
where I'd get dope sick where I had to have them to preach, you know.
I was going to say, do you want to share like how you became addicted?
Yeah, and I asked that in the first chapter of the book, was I born an addict?

(13:30):
You know, and the Bible does say that we're all born into sin.
We're all going to have our certain struggles and there's studies that show
an addict's brain is different than a regular person's brain.
And so I always was chasing kind of an adrenaline rush, even as a kid,
man, I was an adrenaline junkie.
But with the pain pills, it was tricky because my first prescription just hurt

(13:52):
my back. I took them for two or three weeks.
I was doing a grand opening for a youth community center.
And I remember now taking those pain pills and being like, hey,
this is helping me keep going.
But then I didn't take them again, you know, for three or four months after that.
But then it got into a pattern. And I did my ministry on a skateboard.
So it was real easy for me to get hurt, you know, and act like I was hurt.

(14:14):
And so it become that pattern of, and I justified it in my mind.
Well, if a doctor is giving them to me, then there's nothing wrong with it.
And look at all these good things that I'm doing, you know, for other people.
And so that's what kept me into getting the pain pills.
And then it became a coping thing, you know. Yeah.
I'm curious if, you know, as I'm reading your book and I'm thinking through

(14:38):
your story and then my story, you know, one of the things that I think I became
really disappointed with God during that time period.
And now I know that there was a lot of self-pity and stuff going on internally.
But I'm curious what your feeling was that you're a Christian.
You're struggling with faith.

(14:59):
Drugs, and your life is also falling apart, and you're seeing all this stuff.
I'm curious how your relationship with God really changed and evolved during that time.
I even had somebody, in fact, my ex-wife told me one time that she asked me if I even was saved.

(15:21):
She saw my behavior and thought, there's no way this guy can be a Christian.
And of course, that played in my head constantly, things like that.
It's like, I'm supposed to be a Christian, and here I am acting like this.
And I thought God had abandoned me.
I'm curious what your thoughts about God during that time was.

(15:41):
Well, I mean, it was a mental struggle.
I mean, the mental health thing, that's when that started kicking in too because
of all my self-doubts and stuff.
But I remember driving from Macalester, Oklahoma at like 3 o'clock in the morning
to Tulsa where I would get my pain pills when I started buying them off the street.
And I was doing that. And on that drive, I was, I mean, I was just crying and
saying, God, I felt like Paul, like what a miserable person I am.

(16:04):
You know, I'm trying to do God's work, but, but I have to go get pain pills to do it.
And so I lost faith in myself more than God.
And then I turned to where when I got in a full fledged addiction and started
doing dope, it was like, I just totally I wanted to act like God had never been
a part of my life because of the shame, like Adam and Eve hiding in the garden,

(16:25):
like he couldn't see me, you know?
And I did, I asked myself that question many times until recently,
like in the last two years.
It's like, okay, God, I thank God for my trials, like what Paul writes about
in the Bible. And so I'm thankful for what I went through.
But during that time, man, it was that struggle of...

(16:46):
So more inner, more inner struggle, like, okay, God, I know you created me for more than this.
And so I just had to completely run from my calling and I turned my back on
God. He never turned his back on me.
So on the other side of it, you know, like you were talking about,
like two years later, you're on the other side of it.
What do you think God was, what do you think God was teaching or what do you

(17:08):
think was going on with your relationship with God?
Like, do you feel like that's something you had to go through because God wanted
you to learn certain things? or what was your thought?
Well, I think my, so at the pinnacle of my children's and youth ministry,
I was doing a show at the Mabee Center and I'd just done a big revival at Victor
Christian Center. Those are two huge venues.

(17:29):
So to the Christian world, it looked like I was making it like this guy's,
you know, at the top of the youth and children's ministry world.
And I see it now as the enemy snuck in during that time.
And that's when my addiction got really bad, distress. I was doing all my own
marketing, doing all my own video production.
And I was using the pain pills to cope with that. And even people were like,

(17:52):
man, you're not stressed out at all.
So my choices put me into that.
And then the attack of the enemy, I feel like now that's what stopped me from
going on under that next level, you know, in ministry.
And now I see it because of my choices. This is what God has laid out for me in my life now.
One thing like I used to say when I was a minister.

(18:14):
I didn't judge people, but deep down, like if I saw some guy holding the sign,
you know, I bet, well, he could get a job or he could, you know,
cause I didn't understand the real hurt.
And, um, when I was in Bible college, uh, seminary, I prayed a prayer.
I asked God to let me feel the hurt and the pain of people so I could really reach him.

(18:34):
And he answered that prayer, you know, and knowing that now I even think like,
like Paul would write and say, Hey,
I'm thankful for the trials because I can truly love people and really love
them with the heart of Christ where I've felt the pain, man. I've been on the street.
I've slept behind a quip trip outside, right down the road from Victory Christian

(18:58):
Center where I had preached a revival.
So I see that now that God is like, okay, now he's going to use what I went
through to be able to really reach and love people like he does.
So it's worth it. I see it now. It's worth it. Without judgment.
Yeah. No judgment. Yeah. There's no way I could judge anybody, you know.

(19:20):
That's powerful. Yeah. I think it is.
Again, as I'm hearing your story and I'm thinking about it, I see that,
Like, man, it feels like God's plans is just so much bigger than us.
And like me, I had these preconceived notions, you know, like I'm an ordained minister.
You know, I did a lot of preaching, did a lot of men's retreats.

(19:41):
And really, I just never felt like I felt, in fact, I think you have a chapter where you talk about it.
It's like, I felt like a hypocrite, really. And I never could reconcile.
Yes, I'm driven to basically share about God and share about Jesus.
I'm driven, and I always have been, but yet I can't seem to make my life align

(20:06):
with what I believe a Christian looks like.
And then looking back, I'm like, part of it is my version of what a Christian
looks like was wrong, you know, honestly.
And then you even mentioned like, you know, that the Bible verse about Jesus,
he didn't come to save them.
Basically, people are good enough or fix. He came to save us,

(20:29):
you know, the ones that are struggling.
And I love that passage that you quoted.
But, you know, that was my struggle then.
It's like, man, I'm just not, you know, and I called it fundamentally flawed. it.
Like I just felt like I was just, and you learn this in addiction,
it's like you think you're different, but you're really not different.

(20:51):
You know, we're all struggling in different ways. And so I really,
I think it's a great story.
You mentioned in the book that, like, I'll tell you another powerful moment
in the book that I liked was when you were talking about looking at that place
that you had done the youth and you were under the bridge or whatever and doing, you know,

(21:13):
Yeah, I mean, that was a powerful moment in the book, too, because I was like,
wow, I can relate to that. I'm looking at, you know.
I'm putting a syringe in my arm, which who would have thought as a kid growing
up wanting to be a minister that I'd ever be shooting dope, you know.
And the first time I did dope, I shot it because I was at that low point in my life.
I just, when I come back from rehab from the pain pills after they did an intervention,

(21:37):
there was a gap in my marriage after that. We'd done ministry together.
I didn't know what I was going to do with my life, and so our marriage fell apart. And—.
I saw pictures of my ex-wife with a, uh, a man that I used to preach for.
And that was a killer, man. That was just like, um, it took it all out of me.

(21:58):
And I went to a friend's house. I was just going to smoke some weed.
And there was a girl there that had a syringe full of dope. And I said something
like, I just, I don't want to feel anything.
And she said, well, if you don't want to feel nothing here, do this.
And, uh, so that's, that was my first experience into hard drugs.
And, you know, just looking back on that now, um, I was at that point,

(22:19):
I couldn't kill myself because I had kids and I loved my babies,
but I didn't care if I was alive either.
And, um, and then out on the street, it was like that whole mentality.
I could have a gun pointed at my head and, and it not fazed me because I just
didn't care, you know, like shoot me. And on the street, that was too,
because, oh, this guy, he's got the dope bag.

(22:39):
He ain't going to give it up if you put a gun in his face, you know.
And so they'll give me a package to sell or whatever. But, man,
it wasn't bravery. It was I just didn't care.
And Burl said, I can remember him saying something like that,
too, after you came out of your, like, after treatment and stuff.
He said, you know, I wouldn't kill myself, you know.
And it referenced your cousins that had done that. And I wouldn't do that to

(23:03):
my family, but I was slowly killing myself with alcohol.
We were doing it. That's what we were doing. Yeah. He would do it that way,
but he wouldn't do it, you know.
It was like my justification. I'm not killing myself because that's horrible
in my family to be doing, you know, even thinking about that.
But I was doing it. Yeah, we were doing some horrible things to our families in our addiction.

(23:25):
I'm sure you were in alcoholism. What was your,
like, I know you probably have more than one, but what was kind of like your
aha moment or your, you know, like even in the AA program, it talks about a
spiritual awakening, but what was your moment of like?
Now that you look back, that moment started a change in a different direction.

(23:48):
Do you have a moment like that? I do. My first experience with NA,
they come into Creek County one time when I was there.
And I thought, hey, this is cool. I want to be clean. I want to do this.
And so I got involved in NA when I got out of Creek County. And then I relapsed shortly after.
But the Ajo moment that turned my life around, I ended up in solitary confinement

(24:11):
for like three and a half months.
For a pretty brutal altercation.
And, uh, that was whenever I got to know God for myself for the first time in
my life, because I had heard so many sermons.
I could tell you the scriptures, but man, it was just me and God in a cell.
And there was days they would bring the tray, you know, to the, to the bean hole.

(24:31):
And I'm like, I didn't even want them to show up that day, you know,
cause I was just in it with God.
I was in there with the, happened to be a recovery Bible, a life recovery Bible
that was in the cell with me.
Cause you're allowed to have a Bible, rubber toothbrush, and a blanket.
And it was that time I was like, God started dealing with me on a personal level
where, man, you're forced to look inside yourself when you're sitting in a cell

(24:54):
and there's nobody else around.
And so that's when I started really looking in myself and starting to figure
out even who I was, you know, because I'd,
After, uh, all growing up fighting was a thing for me. My dad was a Navy boxer,
me and my cousins, we loved fighting.
And so in addiction, uh, that fight, I was fighting everything to prove that
I was a man, like even growing up, you know, I just, just to be tough.

(25:17):
It wasn't about, you know, being mean. It was just a tough thing.
And then addiction that kind of just going to jail and county,
that's just what you do is you fight. And I realized then, because I even,
with my son, who means the world to me, you know, I wanted him to think he had a tough dad.
And that was kind of a brag whenever I was living in addiction.

(25:39):
But I've realized that now a man truly fights for his family by kneeling before
the throne. And that's how I fight now, you know.
I think that you bring up a great point because, you know, it's talked a lot
about that, you know, Us men were
designed by God to be warriors and to be fighters, and I believe that.

(26:00):
I mean, I believe, I heard my friends say this, he's like, man,
I realized I would basically die for my family, but I struggle just to get up
and do work and do the normal stuff.
And I think a lot of guys feel that. You know, when, yeah, I believe we're designed

(26:21):
that way, but part of the battle I think that we might miss is that the battle
is being there for your family every single day.
And it might be going to work and earning money, and it might be,
you know, taking out the trash.
And those things aren't as exciting as watching Braveheart or something, you know.
But the truth is, is that, yeah, we're designed it, but I think it's a little

(26:43):
bit different than maybe we realize, you know.
And it takes life coming in at you to start to say, okay, I've got to figure
out how to take life on as it happens versus I'm not going to be in these wars
that I feel like I should be in.
And we are supposed to, like you said, fight for our families. And I grew up that way.

(27:09):
First jaw I broke was over my sister. I put hands on her.
And I used to think that was my brag. Like, you know, hey, I'll fight and my
family will tell you I'll fight for them.
But now it's different. You know, with my cousins, my son, like I want them
to know, like I'm fighting for you every day.
And the way I do that now is I'm going to pray for you.

(27:31):
And, and, and it's cool because my son now that he calls me,
hey, dad, what do I do about this? You know, what do I do about that?
I'm saying with my daughter and, uh, and I know that that's part of probably
why I went through what I went through.
So God could even show me, hey, this is what you're supposed to do for your family.
You know, your family to be right, fight for them. How old are your kids?

(27:53):
Uh, my son is 20 and my daughter is 18. Yeah.
So how have they changed watching you go through this experience?
Well, so my son and I were just having a conversation the other day,
and he's like, he said, Dad, you know, if you and Mom would have stayed together,
we probably wouldn't have the relationship we have. He said,
I can talk to you about anything.
And he can. You know, there's nothing off limits.

(28:16):
And with my daughter, so my son, man, he was always little. I write about that in the book.
My son was my writer, you know. And I remember he used to think it was so cool
because I let him drive my Camaro around, you know, and I was just trying to be a cool dad.
And one day he was with me. He was at age 15, I think, and smoking weed.
And so he thought it was cool to smoke weed with his dad because in my high

(28:38):
state of mind, I thought that was cool.
And I pulled up on a guy that I'd had a problem with. And this is how you think
in your high state of mind.
And I was like, jumped out of the car, handled my business with him.
And I'm thinking, yeah, my son knows that he's got a tough dad,
you know, but then I have to think of the reality.
The last time I got locked up, when I called him, he wouldn't talk to me until I got out.

(29:04):
So I wasn't showing him how a real man fights for his family or fights for what he believes in.
And now I get to do that. And the only, we have to make amends coming out of addiction.
And with certain people, like my life has to be in amends to my son.
It's not just me saying, hey, son, I'm sorry. you know that's the words yep
and I've told him those words I've told him hey I'm sorry but,

(29:26):
that doesn't mean anything. Now I just got to show him what a man does, you know?
Now my daughter, she's just, uh, I remember taking her for ice cream one time.
This is kind of one of my, where I had like a month and a half clean,
you know, and I took her out for ice cream.
And, uh, she told me, she said, dad, I told her, I said, baby,
I'm sorry. I put you through this.
I put you through the worry. And she said, well, dad, I'm not worried about

(29:49):
you. She goes, I've prayed and you're going to be okay. Like,
I don't worry. And she meant it.
Like she did not worry about me being out there on the streets.
And she just believed that God was going to do something. I love that.
That's great. I remember when Burl went to treatment.
So we only have one child in the house, which is, she's now 16 and she's a very

(30:09):
bottled up, doesn't really talk.
And of course I had to tell her, you know, Burl's gone.
He's going to be gone for a little bit. And I said, this is why you have to talk.
You know, it's like always a teaching moment, Or I feel like it is at this point
because alcoholism runs on her dad's side of the family.

(30:29):
And so I said, if we don't deal with things, it's going to come out either at
20, at whatever, 30, at 50, whatever it might be.
But I'll tell you, the relationship that these two have blows my mind away.
But an impact, it's turned from something phenomenal.
And that's what we have to do. Like, Beryl and I, we have to break that generational

(30:55):
curse, and that's our fight, bro.
Like, that's what we had to do for your daughter.
You got to beat it, you know, and that keeps me fighting, and that keeps me
fighting to be clean and to stay clean because, man, I can't let my son take
this thing and have to deal with it when he's my age, you know? Right.
I think a lot about like the people listening.

(31:18):
It's like it amazes me that they may be in addiction at this moment.
You know, they may be struggling.
Like me, I was listening to podcasts and sermons and reading books.
And, you know, I was doing anything to try to figure it out and nothing seemed to work.
But if you have somebody listening that's maybe struggling with that and,

(31:39):
you know, they're throwing up their hands, be like, where is God in my life?
What's, you know, what would you say to somebody that's kind of deep in it and struggling?
And man, like that question, where's God in my life? Yeah. I've realized now,
and this is where that pride thing comes in, like, um,
God reaches for us and helps us through the people, but we have to set aside our pride.

(32:05):
And if I go talk to an NA group, man, when I walk up to talk to them,
I fall down flat on my face. I just fall on the floor.
And I just sit there and I'm like, well, this is embarrassing. This sucks.
And I got choices to make. I can be like, hey, brother, help me up and reach my hand out.
So that's how God helps us. You know, people might think, oh,

(32:27):
well, for me, repentance is a 12-step process for an addict.
You know, you can't just be like, God, I'm sorry, and then boom, it's gone.
But there's more than that, man. God's got—you got to turn to the people that
God has placed in your life.
And that doesn't even have to be a pastor or a—it can be anybody, a mentor, a peer.
But that's where God steps in and helps us is by using people.

(32:51):
But we got to give rid of our pride and say, help me.
When you started hearing all this and you said you friend zoned him,
like what made you go, okay, maybe this is who God wants for me.
So on that first date, when like, like date number five in the first date,

(33:11):
at the end of it, he was telling me about his passion for people.
And so I was sharing with him that that's kind of where I was in my life.
Like, I just want to love people like I was focused.
I grew up in church, but, you know, different things in my life.
I've never dealt with addiction or any of those things. So I couldn't relate on that level.

(33:34):
But insecurity and shame for some choices, you know, I could relate to that.
So at the end of our date, we were talking and he was sharing with me his vision
and his dream for helping people
like people in recovery, people that are struggling still in addiction.
I just thought, man, I can relate to that because like, that's my purpose.

(33:55):
I know that God has given me a heart for people and I'm supposed to help people.
I'm supposed to love people.
And so there was a little glimmer of hope there, but I was still really stubborn
because I was still walled up because I'd been hurt a lot.
And so I'm like, not, not set myself up for that again, you know? Right.
So it was about two weeks in probably that I kind of he had to be my driver

(34:17):
on a road trip. I had emergency surgery.
And so I had a friend's wedding to go to. And my mom didn't want me to drive
after my surgery. And I'm like, what about that guy, Chris? He seems nice, you know.
And so I told her, like, a road trip's either going to make it or break it.
I'm like, I'm going to find out if I like him or I don't.
And so by the end of the road trip, I was like, all right, God.
Yeah. Her mom had not looked up my record yet. I don't think she said, this guy looks safe.

(34:41):
And you know what? I got dressed in my best Wranglers.
I had my nicest shirt on and I was feeling so good about myself picking her up for this wedding.
And, uh, I did, I did. I was like, I got it. I'm going to get this girl. I look good. Right.
And then I find out later. So like two weeks later after the wedding,
she shows up, I was working in Norman.

(35:04):
I met her at my parents' house and she said, Hey, I stopped at Atwood's And
I had these Atwood dollars or whatever rewards.
And I got you a couple pairs of pants and shirts.
So then she says, tell him what you really thought about how I looked.
Oh, you didn't like what he was wearing.
So he was very coordinated with these gray wranglers and this shirt and everything.

(35:25):
But the whole entire time while we were sitting at the wedding, he had crossed his legs.
And so he had like this rise of his pants where like this much of his boot was showing.
And I couldn't focus on anything else. at how much my boo was showing.
And the whole time I'm thinking, I have to help this guy. I have to help this
guy. So I went and got him some longer pants.

(35:46):
And I'm like, listen, you got to have a bunch down there. There's got to be
a stack. Oh, that's hilarious.
I just thought she was being cool knowing that, you know, I was trying to come up.
That's funny. Yeah, so that's like an ongoing joke for us about his pants. That's awesome.
I know you talk about in the book that you were kind of like the,
not class clown, but You were just the entertainer through ministry, you know?

(36:11):
And I really thought about that because there's times whenever you approach,
I don't know, I think we use whatever coping, whatever way we deal with people.
Like for me, it would be different than yours, but, you know,
yours was more entertainment.
Like, hey, I'm going to try to entertain these people, which will get their

(36:32):
attention, and then I can share the gospel or I can do whatever,
right? And I'm curious...
Like now how you approach that? Because again, I can relate to that because
we think that there's a formula sometimes of how you get up and share about
your testimony or how you, does that make sense?
And we use these techniques to help us do that.

(36:55):
And sometimes they feel like, you know, is this what God wants me to do? Is it not?
How do you approach something like that now? Now that you're on the other side,
I'm curious your thoughts of how you approach, like, you know,
speaking engagement or how you those type of things.
Well, for me, the laughter thing, that was my way to connect,

(37:17):
you know, and to be accepted.
You know, if I can make my friends laugh, if I can make them have a good time.
And that was the way I guess I found value in myself, you know,
was being the goofball, you know, and do anything to make people laugh.
And now to reach
people like i i see it as that's the tool i use to

(37:37):
open to get people to open up and the joke's always
on me are you know i'm the only one that's going to look bad in
this situation but it allows people to open up and
when we can laugh at our problems and our issues and see that um it just opens
people up to to you know let you speak to them yeah so that's why i use like

(37:57):
i said I fall down whenever I walk up there because that immediately makes everybody
feel like it's okay to be themselves, you know.
And so that's how I use it now, kind of like what I did in doing ministry. Yeah, that's great.
I noticed that, you know, you talk about at the very beginning that you're,
I guess it would be your grandfather that he had committed suicide. Is that right?

(38:20):
And would you mind telling us a little bit about that?
Well, so I don't know a lot about it. My dad was two at the time,
and then his mother died when he was 12.
And so I think that generational thing, too, you know, the mental health stuff,
that is something that we have to break.
And my dad did. I was raised in a great home.

(38:41):
Like, I don't have an excuse to say, well, I was raised this way.
Or, you know, my dad was a Navy guy, boxer, very structured,
very committed to work. And what he took from his dad's suicide is that,
hey, I always want to be a dad to my kids.
And so he always kept us close whenever he took contracts. The whole family would get up and move.

(39:04):
But I still think there's that.
Thing where addicts are born different, you know, our, our mindset is different.
Yeah. You know, it's, it's like, if you, you know, as an alcoholic,
they put the alcohol in front of you, like, well, if you touch that,
you're, you're going to die.
Yeah. But you take that chance anyways, you know?
And so that's just something that's different because a normal person,

(39:25):
if you tell them, if you drink that, you'll die, they're not going to drink it, you know?
Right. But, um, so the, the mental health part of that and, and the suicide, uh.
I think can just be passed down and we have to
break that that by overcoming it
and being honest about it that's another i agree
like you have to talk about it i think so many people you know i think it's

(39:48):
now becoming acceptable to talk about it where people 10 years ago were not
being open and vulnerable transparency um is really hard and sometimes i think
like our society and social media,
kind of challenge it a little bit because of that shame.
And the devil uses that. Like, you don't want to put that out there because

(40:11):
all these people that like you are going to think different or whatever.
But on the flip side on social media, it is also a platform to say, hey, I'm here.
I'm being real and raw. And like, I'm being vulnerable and transparent.
And then that lets people relate to you.
Yeah. And then lets their wall come down a little bit that, you know, okay to not be okay.

(40:32):
Yeah, I agree. I know I talk about this a lot, that what AA and the 12 steps
and all that, what it did for me was I saw a simpler version of God.
I was really, I didn't realize this, but I was on this deal of like self-knowledge.
I would try to get as much information, but it never seemed to solve, you know?

(40:54):
And what I learned later is that self-knowledge is not going to help you in
spiritual growth. You know what I mean?
It's kind of counterintuitive in a lot of ways.
But me learning more and more and more and more about alcoholism or reading
the Bible more and more with gaining more knowledge about God,
those things are great, but they did not solve my problem.

(41:16):
It is a spiritual matter. When you're dealing with a spiritual matter, that's way different.
And AA taught me that, truthfully, because I didn't even like, Um.
What do you call it? Repetitive prayers like the Lord's prayer, serenity prayer.
I didn't like it because I just didn't believe you should sit there and repeat
a prayer over and over again, you know?

(41:38):
And, but yet I needed to practice prayer, you know, more than I realized.
And so by learning, hey, they just repeat these prayers, it mechanically made
me do that. And then I started growing from there, you know,
where I now I feel like praying more.
And, and so, but it just taught me this simpler version of, of, of really God.

(42:02):
And, um, I realized that I was, I kind of had it wrong.
Like I said earlier, I had it wrong, you know, as smart as I was, I was dumb.
Right. Well, yeah, we're still just little pieces of dirt trying to explain
to other pieces of dirt, how God works.
Like, you know, that's, that happened for me in solitaire.
Cause I knew how to pray the prayers that I learned at seminary. I knew all that stuff.

(42:26):
But man, all that goes out the window when it's just you and God.
You're not worried about somebody hearing you pray.
You're not worrying about praying the right way.
And that's when it became a relationship. You know, and it's crazy to think
I did ministry for 13 years, grew up in the church, and I went to prison and really got to know God.
And that's what happened. You started like talking to Him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(42:49):
And it's a real talk. You know, there's no floweriness to it.
You know, I didn't have to worry about the guy down in the cell hearing me.
I didn't care what he thought, you know.
And God even used that, man. When I was in solitary, I was locked up right next
to a guy that was going back to prison for a second murder.
And he had Xanax and things like that. That's what caused him to do that.

(43:13):
And we got to talk about God, too. you know, and, um,
It was cool because it was just a raw. And when I went to prison, I'll tell you my story.
When I went to prison, what really, because you asked what a wake up was for me.
I was still at that point where, okay, I've lost doing ministry.
You know, I'm not a man of God anymore.

(43:34):
Like I'm just, hopefully I can just be saved, right? You know,
that's what I was thinking.
And this neighborhood crip guy, big old guy, his nickname was,
or his last name was Glock, which that's the perfect name for a gangster. or he had the teardrop.
And he ran the neighborhood Crips in prison. And first come into prison,
I was working in the kitchen and he was new, still had his stuff with him.

(43:56):
And he walked in and I said, welcome to Bill Johnson's Fine Dining.
And he just looked at me and he told me later, he was like, bro,
I just wanted to punch you so bad.
He goes, you just have this big old smile on your face. And he's like,
doesn't he know we're at prison right now?
He was just coming in. But that dude, I ended up doing Bible study with him every morning.
He would have his Bible open and he would have me a coffee and a pastry,

(44:19):
which is a big deal in prison. That's a big sign of respect.
Where were you in prison?
Was it here in Oklahoma? In Oklahoma, Bill Johnson. Yep. Okay.
And so he showed me respect that way and he wanted to learn God's word.
But how that got started, I start working out with him.
And in prison, things are segregated and it's not really because of race. It's more to keep peace.
You know, if somebody in the black car does something wrong, then they handle it.

(44:43):
Somebody in the white car, then we handle it, you know, and that's the way it works.
But I would work out with Glock and the white car leader and Aryan Brotherhood guy.
He was walking the track one day when I was working out. Man,
they started razzing me about working out with the blacks, you know,
and I was like, what are you doing? You know, and kind of joking or whatever.
But in there was stuff like that starts getting joked about.

(45:04):
You're like, okay, it's about, they're about to really come at me about it.
So later that day I was walking the track and this guy screams across the yard. He said, going, going.
And he's got two of his little homies with him. And like, I'm,
I'm bracing. I'm like, okay, I'm fixing to get beat up here.
And he gets out there and, um, he said, man, I heard you used to be a preacher.

(45:25):
And I said, yeah. And I mean, I was shocked. I was like, okay,
where's this coming from? I said, yeah.
He said, man, I started reading the Bible in County and I don't understand it.
I need you to explain it to me. The whole Bible.
But he just wanted to know what it meant. And he goes, As a matter of fact,
he goes, I'm going to call a mandatory Bible study for all the white boys.

(45:47):
And so at that point, I knew that they knew God had my back. So I got a little brave.
I said, well, it can't just be for white people, bro. It's got to be for everybody,
like, you know, the black people.
And he's like, yeah, I'm cool with that. I said, and it doesn't matter what
gang you're in. Like, everybody would be welcome to this Bible study.
And it was during, like, some of the COVID stuff. And we had been put on a lockdown.
So we were all locked into our unit.

(46:08):
So there wasn't chapel services going on. And, um, so I agreed to do that and
I started teaching Bible study in there and, uh.
That's when it's crazy to think that God reminded me of what he had for me and
what I was supposed to be doing.
And this guy, the Aryan Brotherhood guy, you know, wasn't the best of guys,
but God used him to say, hey, I've got a purpose for you.

(46:31):
And so that's when my purpose started coming back to my life.
Yeah, like it didn't have to be in a church.
No, no, no. We were in a mop closet, like a big old broom closet.
And it's crazy, too, because one day we were in there doing Bible study,
and the CO saw us, and he saw these different gang leaders all meeting together.
And he thought it was about to pop off, because that's what happens before it pops off.

(46:53):
And he, Barge Den had called in some of his little goonies, you know,
to come break up what was ever going on.
And he opened the door. He said, what's going on? I said, man,
we're doing Bible study.
And some of the guys were laughing. He's like, no, really, we're doing Bible
study. I said, yeah, I was just
telling them about how it was the temple guards that killed Jesus. Yes.
I made a laugh with that. And Bible study was so cool in there because I was

(47:18):
in Proverbs for a long time with them.
And I could use what I had been through in life to be able to reach them where they were at.
And the Bible warns us of the strange woman that will leave us with nothing,
rob us and take everything, you know, and to stay away from her and that that's wisdom.
And so I would tell the guys, I'd be like, it's like the West Side girl, you know,

(47:39):
that will take your wallet to you and they're like yeah
we get them we can relate so you would put it in
relatable terms oh yeah yeah i am blown away by this this like sounds like a
movie yeah doesn't it actually after i finished his book i said you know what
okay so let me backtrack we um one of the lessons at church was talking about

(48:00):
being christian-ish you know and like okay like Like, I'm sort of Christian,
but a cuss word here and there.
I, you know, just different things, you know. Yeah.
Like two weeks before I'd started studying in Galatians and Ephesians,
and there were just some things that God was dealing with my heart about,
like some of the shows we were watching that were taking God's name in vain
and some different things.

(48:21):
And I was like, you know, I was really feeling it. Like, we shouldn't be watching this.
We shouldn't be watching this. But I didn't bring it up to him because I was
like, you know, maybe I'm just overthinking things.
You know, we like the show. It's not that bad.
You know. And so at church, when that message hit, I think it was that evening
or the next night, we were talking about it.
And he was like, you know, I feel like maybe we should get rid of some of our

(48:42):
networks and just go to like some more pure stuff or whatever.
And like it was just those moments where I'm like, OK, like I understand,
like God's trying to use different things to get our attention.
And so that we can reach other people by the way that we're like what you were
talking about, like how you were living your life. And you're like,
maybe I'm not really a Christian because I'm doing this or whatever.

(49:04):
It's just funny how God just takes different things.
And even like I told him, I said, I just feel like everything happens for a
purpose. And so when I finished his book...
I looked at him and I said, this is going to be a movie. Like I said,
this network that we started watching, I like based on true stories. Oh, I do too.
That's like every series. Bro, I was like, it's a true story.

(49:26):
I'm like, oh, let's go and watch it. That's the same. Like I scroll down and look.
And so we signed up for the Angel Network or whatever it's called.
Yeah. And I told him, I said, your movie is going to be on there.
Like it's going to make a movie. I just know it. I know it in my heart.
And so it's funny that you say that because, like, yeah, I feel like it will be.

(49:46):
I mean, I just, I mean, I've never been arrested.
So I don't know what prison or any, I mean, I've done like tours through them
because I've been part of like Elk City leadership.
And they tell me, like, you know, this is, that's all I know about it.
So when I hear you saying this stuff, I'm like, wow.
Like, how do you talk to some, when you said you're talking to someone in another

(50:07):
cell, like, how are you talking to them? Because I know there's other people
listening that are like me that we don't understand.
Burl says everyone needs to be arrested one time, and I totally disagree.
We won't ask Burl how many times he's been arrested.
There's something different. Hey, it's really easy to admit that your life's
out of control in handcuffs, isn't it?

(50:27):
So one of my really good friends, her husband, he's been, I don't know,
how long has Justin been sober? He's very open. About 20 years.
20 years, you know, in A. And she was talking about this week at convention
that Justin said, oh, yeah, I am allergic to alcohol or whatever.
And they were like, oh, really?

(50:48):
And he's like, yeah, I break out of cop cars or something like that.
Break out handcuffs, right? Yeah.
That's kind of one of my lines I use is that people say, oh,
you don't drink? No, I'm retired from drinking.
I drink enough for everybody during my time. Yeah.
Well, and that's it's crazy because, of course, that I mean,

(51:10):
the Tulsa City Police, they chased me pretty hard for a long time,
you know, and only God has chased me more relentlessly than them.
But but now when I'm doing the company I worked for, I'm renovating the Tulsa
police stations, the Riverside and Gilchrist police stations.
And going in there, man, um, the police that knew me, well, first went in,

(51:34):
my boss was like, well, bud, too many of these people know you by your first name.
I was like, yeah, but God's redemption works. Now I'm looking at plans on a
cuff bench that I've been cuffed to, you know, that we're taking out. Wow.
But the police there have been so cool. Like, and just, and there's part of
it in book. I talk about an officer Elias and, uh.
Two weeks before the last time I was locked up, she pulled up on a scene where

(51:59):
there was things going down and a couple of people got arrested,
but she come over to my truck and she said, there's something different about you.
And she goes, you need to get away from these people. They're going to bring you down.
And I mean, her words really impacted me. And then she's one of the officers
over here at the police station and I talk about her in the book.
And so it's, it's cool to see it come full circle, you know, we're redemption.

(52:20):
That's all I can say. Yeah.
You know, like when you're telling this story about you're helping these guys
in prison, I'm just sitting here reminded that, you know, I have always say
God can do anything. God can do anything.
Well, God works everywhere and anywhere. I mean, he was using you in prison.
I mean, that's pretty amazing, right? It was cool because the respect that came

(52:42):
in, like there was an incident that happened and this guy had a problem with
me and I had several people come up, you know, guys that were part of the Bible
study, the neighborhood crip car leader.
They're like, good, you're not going to fight him. And I'm like, bro, I'm not a punk.
Like I can fight him. He's like, no, you don't understand. We respect you.
Like you're not going to fight him, you know, but in prison,
if you don't fight, you're a punk.

(53:04):
And so I'm sitting there like, man, I don't want people thinking I'm a punk.
He goes, nobody thinks that. We respect you. You're a man of God.
We're not going to let you fight nobody. So I was like, okay, my prison time was easy.
What do you have going on now? I'm curious, like, what's kind of in the plans
with where you have your book coming out?

(53:24):
I want people to know what you've got going on, and maybe they can be a part of it in any way.
Of course, you know, reading your book, that'd be a great place to start.
But what else do you got going on? Yeah, get the book. And one thing that I'm
doing with everything that we do, we have agreed that we're going to give 52% back to God.
So any of the book sales, 52% of that is going to go into recovery and different

(53:49):
things that are helping the struggling addict.
I feel like if I give God 52%, give him controlling interest in everything I
do, it's got to work. I was about to ask you, why 52%?
Because you said that about the cattle when you came in. Yeah,
well, I want— You said 52%. Give God controlling interest. When I try to control
things, I end up in prison.
So I'm like, okay, God, you get to control it. And so we want to help in that

(54:12):
way. I'm LifeGate Recovery Ranch.
I want to help them. They're trying to build a new dorm and stuff.
So that's one of the things that I'm kind of involved in on the building side
of it because I know how to build.
And then we've bought 50 acres, and there's 168 acres that's connected.
And we want to get that place and start running cattle. So, Burrell,

(54:35):
I'm going to be calling you for cattle advice.
All I know is that I'm supposed to do it. I don't really know how.
But we got the land. I've been studying it.
So we want to run cattle and donate 52% of the beef.
And really that comes from, man, I've been on the street. I've been hungry. I know what it is.
And so we're going to donate the ground beef to different, like we got Dream

(55:00):
Center in Tulsa and John 316.
We're going to donate that beef to them so they can distribute it.
And then the fine cuts of the beef we're going to sell to restaurants and places
like that. But so that's our big vision and the new property that we're looking
at getting, which would be awesome.
Anybody that wants to be involved, you know, Good Works Ranch,
Facebook, we're going to buy that. And it's got a big house on it.

(55:25):
And we're going to use that house as like a retreat, a bed and breakfast for
people in ministry so that they can come and find rest and peace.
Because that's something that would have been great for me when I was doing
ministry and just going all the time. You need a break.
So where is that house? That's in Bristow. In Bristow. Yep.

(55:46):
And so we'll use the land to do that and then set up like hunting,
things like that for ministers to come and just bring their families and just
be there to find some peace and rest.
I love that. We want everything that we do just to glorify God. and you don't want to,
I'm curious about, you know, I can't say her name because I've got to be careful.

(56:08):
But my daughter is going in, her and her husband are going to be,
they're in training right now to be missionaries.
And they're going to be going, you know, out of the country.
We can't say where. I've got to be careful because, man, I had to delete some
social media posts. I guess for like safety purposes.
Yeah, safety purposes. They're not going to a super dangerous place.

(56:30):
But, you know, I would love to hear if you have any advice for her and her husband
that are just going into ministry.
They're 23. Yeah, they're 23. They haven't been married, what,
two years, something like that.
And so, anyway, I just want to know if you have any, because you've been in
that. You've been in ministry, and you still are. But any advice?

(56:53):
So, and it's in a place that, you know, what did he say the stats were?
Not a lot of Christians. Basically not a lot of Christians, right?
Well, it's crazy. Like prison.
Like prison, yeah. Just kidding. Well, it's crazy that you say that.
So I have a friend that I can't say his name.
He's going to an Islamic country and he can't tell me where.
We went out to dinner with him the other day and Michelle said,

(57:14):
well, how did you meet Chris? And he said, oh, let me tell you how I met him.
He said he robbed me and had the cartel looking for me because this guy used to be a dope dealer.
And now he's going on a missions field. So I've never been in addiction or alcohol or any of those things.
So I truly am kind of naive.
So I do ask, I'm like, well, how about that? Like you were talking about.

(57:35):
Yeah, you just can't relate. Yeah, yeah.
And this is what Brian told me. He said, man, it's like a 70% of people that
go over there, they fall off, you know, when they're doing ministry and they
get sent back from the mission field.
And so my thing is, I would say, obviously, stay connected to God,
you know, and make that your reason. And then pride, because there was a lot of pride.

(57:56):
I mean, when I was doing ministry, my final big show I did, I called it the
Christopher G Show. I mean, talk about pride, you know.
I'm trying to teach them about Jesus who is selfless, and I'm saying the Christopher G Show.
So I would say, as young ministers, take yourself out of it,
you know, because it's easy even for missionaries to go—.
Start getting pride in what you're doing because, look, I'm helping all these people.

(58:20):
I'm doing all of this. And that I'm, I'm, I'm, and it's our first step, you know.
We admit that we're powerless, you know. It's all about God.
And so that's the main thing. It's all about God. That's true.
I remember our pastor speaking on that.
It was probably a year ago where he was talking about, you know,
your identity, you know.
And it's not what you do for a living. And I remember that like really struck

(58:45):
with me, a chord with me, because here I have always looked at myself as I sell
real estate. I've been doing that ever since I've lived here.
Well, who else am I if you don't know who I am as a realtor?
And I thought, what is that? Just coming back from Real Estate Commission,
it was, you know, convention.
It's, you know, there's been a lot of changes, but that's not who I am.

(59:07):
You know, I am a child of God. And that's what I have to be reminded of.
I'm not based on my sales and all of that.
Well, yeah, when we get to heaven, it's not going to say your name,
real estate agent, in that book.
It's not going to say our name and addict in the book. But we get so caught
up in what we do, whether it's ministry or selling real estate or running a farm.

(59:28):
How many heads of cattle do you have? How many acres do you have?
That's what we get caught up in. I agree with you. I think that,
as you were talking, Stacey, I'm thinking, you know, God, I'm reminded that
God, He created us, right?
And like with your sense of humor, I don't have that sense of humor. I really don't.

(59:50):
And I, but I think He created, you know, He created you. Yeah.
And he knew what he was doing.
And yet it's so easy to think, well, I screwed it up.
But I think he has a bigger plan than that, you know, and I think you can go
through, especially in ministry to just be like, man, I'm screwing it up.
I'm screwing it up. I'm screwing it up, you know.

(01:00:11):
But I think that still, even in that idea, the focus is on yourself.
You know, it's like, I'm messing up. Well, if God is as powerful as we believe
that he is, then he, we can't screw it up. You know what I'm saying?
We can't get in the way of what he's doing.
I mean, God has used everything you went through in a way more powerful way

(01:00:33):
than you could have been, you know, wherever, victory.
Or is that what it was? Sorry. Victory Christian. Yeah. Not saying you didn't
do good things there, but I mean, I'm just blown away by the prison story.
And the humor thing, it's who I am. And when I got lost in addiction,
man, all that went away. But when I went to prison, like I felt like I went

(01:00:53):
to prison and was set free, you know, and the humor came back like the neighborhood crip cart guy.
One time I told him, I was like, hey, bro, I had an idea.
How about you let me join your little club and you got you guys can call me
Mr. Rogers in the neighborhood.
And he's like, go ahead. There's some things you're not supposed to say in prison.
You're not supposed to joke about that. I'm not an expert.

(01:01:13):
But I think what you said with week.
I'm going to screw it up. Yeah. If I'm doing it, I'm going to screw it up.
So that's that controlling interest to God.
Like, if it's His, you know.
But He knows we're going to screw it up. Right, right. He knows that.
And He's going to turn it into something so good. I don't think it's like God, He is in control.

(01:01:35):
And man, it never looks like what we think it should look like.
You know, I talk about it a lot because from a young age, I remember as a kid,
like pacing my room and pretending like I was preaching.
But then I had a divorce. And then this happened. Then this happened.
And then I don't feel like I'm worthy anymore to do that.
You see, whereas yours is kind of opposite. You did all those.

(01:01:58):
And then, you know, these things started happening.
And now you don't feel worthy anymore. Well, almost from the beginning,
I didn't feel worthy enough to do those things, you know.
But now looking back and I'm like, man, God had a better plan than I did.
And where you felt not worthy
i felt like well this is my gift this

(01:02:19):
is my talent this is what i and so it was
kind of the set the end was the same because i
felt like i got this you know christopher g show you know my pride you know
i i thought i had it um and the ends was the same for us we both were going
down a path with a different mindset but then um we ended up in addiction for our own reasons.

(01:02:45):
You bring it up, and it was a big turning point for me, too,
because before I quit drinking,
I really believed that I had these other issues going on, that if I fixed those
issues, like you can say root cause kind of stuff, that if I fixed those issues,

(01:03:05):
then I wouldn't drink as much.
That was kind of my thought. In
fact, I had a counselor that I was doing counseling and he was agreeing.
That's, we got to work on this. And for me, it was grieving.
You know, I had lost some family members. And also though, you mentioned, um,
That like kind of this seeking attention really like from women for, you know, all that.

(01:03:27):
And those, I knew that those were bigger issues than the drinking.
But what I didn't realize till later is that I had to quit drinking.
That was the crisis mode.
And then once I quit drinking, then I was able to start working on these other
things that were, you know, as a program calls character flaws, character defects.

(01:03:50):
You know, I knew I had them. I knew I had these deep, ingrained character defects,
but I couldn't see the forest through the trees until I quit drinking.
That's when it really changed for me is that, man, I've got to quit drinking.
Well, and as men, we need validation. And so I was searching for validation,
whether it be through my fist or through making people laugh.

(01:04:13):
But what I see now is that if I seek my validation through God And if I do that, then I'm validated.
No matter what else is going on, life on life's terms, you know,
now I live it, life on God's terms.
And so that validation thing, man, when I stopped seeking that through women
or drugs, you know, the void, whatever, and just said, okay,

(01:04:36):
God, I want my validation to come through you.
That's what changed for me. Can you put that in your notes? I like that.
Pearl puts everything in notes so he can remember it later. That's good. I like that.
That's really well said. I think it's, that's why I'm a big fan of the 12 steps,
period, whether you're in addiction or not, because I think that it's still the same.

(01:04:58):
We have these character defects or we have these flaws.
We have these human, you know, it's human.
And as you go through those, it's like, it's the same thing.
It's like, I'm powerless over what?
You're powerless over really this life. I mean, that's a big wake up call.
Well, one day we realize I'm powerless over this life. I can't seem to get my

(01:05:19):
shit together. I can't seem to get things together.
And then you look at the inventory, all those things. It's like, man, I do need to take...
A regular look at my life and see what falls in line with God's will,
what doesn't, you know, where I'm struggling, where I'm not,

(01:05:39):
you know, those things are important.
And I'm a big fan of it. And, you know, it's been around for a hundred years.
So it's definitely good stuff.
Well, we went, or she would go to 12-step.
She went and watched me graduate my 12-step program,
which was really cool because one of my first Sunday school teachers was,
she's 80 years old and she's doing the 12-step program at her church she helps

(01:06:01):
run it and so that was just really cool I joke and tell her that she didn't
do a good job I ended up in prison,
she said well you didn't listen that's why you ended up in prison but
she would come with me and you tell them what yeah it's funny that
you mentioned that because I told him after one of the meetings we were
walking outside and going to the car and I said and I
go I don't know what it was specifically I

(01:06:23):
said but just sitting there I thought you don't have
to be an addict to drugs or alcohol like
you could be an addict to attention or self-validation
or just have insecurity yeah and these steps could help you deal with life you
know and it's just funny that you you say that because I told him the very same
thing that it's so powerful and he's actually um just because of his passion

(01:06:47):
for people and people in addiction and in recovery,
he's starting the 12 steps again and trying to do like some little videos because
we kind of want to do like a podcast about relationships with God.
And so I'm working the steps with him because I'm like, it's just so powerful.
And I think it could help anybody struggling with daily life stuff.

(01:07:08):
Yeah. You know, so it's absolutely. Well, Burl has definitely,
well, I'm going to back up to one thing.
When One of them I burl had asked me when he got back from treatment.
He said, hey, you want to come with me?
I'm, like, yeah, okay I had no idea what to expect as i'm sure you of course
did not either But it was kind of like what you see in the movies.

(01:07:29):
Hi, my name is burl. I'm an alcoholic. Hi burl I mean i'm like wow.
Yeah, everyone says hi burl but um That was it was very powerful me and I and
I think anyone that has a significant other should go to a meeting with them,
I was blown away, and we've talked about this several times,

(01:07:50):
that how open and honest and vulnerable everybody was.
And I've only been one time, and I've been to other social gatherings that they
do, but I'm blown away by it.
But we went to a picnic. They do a picnic every summer.
And one of the guys, I was like, hey, you look super familiar.

(01:08:13):
Okay, mind you, I've only been to one meeting. okay and so not even thinking
you don't know last names right well we're in a small town here and I you know
we introduce ourselves I'm like hey I'm Stacey Karnstricker blah blah you know I'm just.
And I'm like you look so familiar he
goes yes you had shown us houses before and
I'm like yes that's right I'm like tell me your last name again and not even

(01:08:38):
thinking so then I go sit down and then there's like a guest speaker and I'm
like oh no I asked is I'm not supposed to ask last names that's all I could
think of like for the next hour yeah so then later I went up to him and I'm like I I am so sorry.
I'm so sorry. And he's like, I didn't think anything of it. Yeah.
But he was so kind. But we've just talked about how people are so open.

(01:09:01):
And Burrell feels like he gets more out of like spiritual, you know,
out of that versus church because people are so open and honest.
I mean, it's kind of become my church, to be honest with you.
And I'm not, I call it, I'm not an AA cloney.
I'm really not. And what I mean by that is my life doesn't eat,
breathe, and drink, you know. It did maybe at first.

(01:09:24):
But also, you know, I still attend meetings at least twice a week, and I enjoy it.
But it's just a refreshing place to be, truly.
And I also, I love to see people grow and how they learn about God.
You know, through this process we were talking about earlier is that I learned a simpler God.

(01:09:45):
But what I've seen is that most people come from this baggage of spiritual,
spiritual baggage, you know, and and that wherever they come from, you know, it led to this.
And so meaning that addiction, it led to whatever.
And then, you know, the whole process makes you rethink everything.

(01:10:08):
And I think we start over with God almost. And it's like, man,
you learn this simpler version.
You learn about, you know, people don't realize this, but like God is mentioned
315 times in that big book, you know, so it's a spiritual program, you know.
Now, you also hear the negative, oh, it's not Jesus isn't mentioned and all these things.

(01:10:31):
But we have to start somewhere. I really believe that.
You know, I had a good grasp of Christianity and Jesus and the cross and resurrection,
all that. But yet, that's not where everybody's at.
You know, they start from this very basic, and it's pretty phenomenal, truly.
That's what Jesus, I mean, he gathered the little kids and said,

(01:10:51):
unless you become like them—,
You're not going to know me, you know, and that's simplify, you know,
and that's it. God become a lot simpler to me, too.
And I think that what he's opened me up to is that, first of all,
like you were talking about the very beginning, you said that I didn't realize I was judging people.
But we all do. We all have this tendency. You get in those rooms and you realize

(01:11:14):
it's like, man, we all are kind of starting at this one place where we're trying
to figure out the spirituality.
We're trying to understand it. or trying, you know, and I love the whole thing.
What's your version of God?
You know, I love that question because if I start talking about what do I want God to look like?
Man, He looks amazingly like the God that we have. You know what I mean?

(01:11:37):
A God that has grace and a God that has mercy.
A God that really cares about the things I care about.
You know, those things, we forget them sometimes. I think that I forgot that,
hey, He cares about my life.
I'll never, I'll give you one thing. I was like in the beginning of my recovery,
I would walk. We live out in the country.
I'd walk for 45 minutes and I would pray and I would do it very mechanical at the beginning.

(01:12:02):
I would just pray for each of my kids and pray for my wife and pray for family and pray for friends.
But then one day somebody told me, hey, why don't you just spend that time thanking God?
And I just said, OK, I'll try that. And I was going around and all of a sudden
I see a deer across the road and I see some turkeys. I'm not kidding.
And I'm like, wow, this is in the feeling of like, man, I have a lot to be grateful

(01:12:29):
for, you know, and that that really helped me at that time to be like.
Man, God is on my side.
He is here. He is. He wants this as much as I want it.
You know, he wants, you know, and anyway, it was just very eye opening.
And and it made me that connection spiritually go deeper.

(01:12:51):
You know, that, and not the way I thought it should go. You know,
it was always different than I thought, which was great.
So, well, brother, I appreciate you guys, both of you guys coming so much.
I do want to make sure that we, can you, first of all, again,
tell them how they can get the book.
And then also, I know people want to connect with you.

(01:13:12):
And so the best way to connect with you, all that information.
Well, Facebook, Phil Popping Preacher. Easy to remember. The Pill Popping Preacher.
Same with TikTok, The Pill Popping Preacher.
You can find me on both of those. And then to get the book, it's on Amazon.
And we're working in getting into the bookstores now, you know,
like Mardell's Books A Million and things like that.

(01:13:35):
So hopefully that'll be done in about the next month or so. But right now,
Amazon, you can get a digital copy pre-order now.
It releases the 11th.
Of March. And then we're also going to have an audio version and then hardback
and paperback. That's cool.
Did you do the voiceover for the audio? I didn't. You know, there's a lot,

(01:13:56):
as you know, with doing the podcasting, there's a lot that goes into it.
They want your, like your rhythm has to be right, all kinds of stuff to get
it approved for Amazon to sell it.
And I started out trying it and I'm like, yeah, there's no way I can get my
rhythm right. And then we started getting auditions from people from Amazon,
ACX, and they started sending us auditions.

(01:14:16):
And like my buddy that's going on the missions field, I played him one.
He's like, bro, there's no way that guy could sound like he's ever been in prison.
You cannot use him. And so we just, we finally picked one that,
okay, we think this one can kind of give my voice and do it that way. Yeah.
Okay. So they can't get it and they can pre-order it and it'll be available March 11th.

(01:14:37):
Right. Okay. How did you get it already? Well, because he sent me a digital copy.
So I was able to go out there. Oh, okay. He's got it in. I was confused.
It was a promotional, and that's, I could send out a promotional digital copy
so that people could read it to help kind of promote the book.
Okay. So you're on Facebook and TikTok. Yeah.
Pill Popping Preacher. Okay. And one of the things I want to do,

(01:14:59):
and you can, we can, I can show you what I'm talking about afterwards,
but we have a little, little store here because part of the deal is that we,
you know, they buy something. It's like a handshake deal with the people traveling through.
And so I definitely want to, when your book comes out, I'm going to put a book there.
And I want a little deal about you and y'all's ministry and all that.
And so I think it'd be great because you'll have a lot of people who will see that.

(01:15:24):
And I think it'll also go with what we're trying to do here.
But we want to help promote that.
And then when this podcast comes out, we'll make sure that we tag you in it.
And if you could share it, too, it helps us because, you know,
we're trying to get our message out there, too.
And I think we can, you know, join together.
Well, I believe there's a reason, like we talk about all the time,

(01:15:46):
there's a reason that we've met you guys. And it's so that we can do good together, you know.
Yeah, I really believe that. I think that God has opened up opportunities for us,
and it sounds like for y'all too, is that there's so many opportunities for
us to work together and be able to do some great things together.

(01:16:07):
And I think that God honors that, and so I look forward to it.
I mean, now that you guys have been here, we definitely consider y'all friends,
and we want to continue that relationship. So I think we could be.
Yeah, we'll definitely need to do that. I need some cow advice.
So you gave them how to reach out to you. So I think that they've got it.

(01:16:30):
So thank you guys so much. Yes, thank you. Michelle, thank you so much.
Appreciate it. All right. You guys have a great day.
Music.

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