October 7, 2024 • 44 mins
Elliot shares his journey through recovery from addiction and mental health challenges. The conversation covers topics such as codependency, the 12-step program, spirituality, and personal growth.
Key themes discussed:
1. Recovery and 12-step programs (AA, NA, Codependents Anonymous)
2. Dealing with codependency and childhood trauma
3. The importance of spirituality and finding a higher power in recovery
4. Changing one's mindset and identity in the recovery process
5. The value of community and support in overcoming addiction and mental health issues
Action Points:
1. Seek Help:
- Reach out to local mental health organizations (e.g., Red Rock in Elk City) for guidance and support.
- Attend 12-step meetings (AA, NA, Codependents Anonymous) to connect with others in recovery.
2. Address Codependency:
- Read the book "Codependence and Arms" for insights into codependent behaviors.
- Work on identifying and expressing your own feelings and needs, rather than always prioritizing others.
3. Embrace Spirituality:
- Explore your personal concept of a higher power, understanding that it's a individual journey.
- Practice the full Serenity Prayer to gain perspective on life's challenges.
4. Change Your Environment:
- Surround yourself with supportive, like-minded individuals who encourage your recovery.
- Consider attending a church or spiritual community that aligns with your values.
5. Work the 12 Steps:
- Find a sponsor to guide you through the 12-step process.
- Focus on personal growth and self-reflection through each step.
6. Shift Your Perspective:
- Reframe your identity from being defined by your struggles (e.g., "I'm an alcoholic") to acknowledging your battles (e.g., "I battle with alcoholism").
- Practice self-love and acceptance through daily affirmations and self-care.
7. Give Back:
- Once you've made progress in your recovery, look for opportunities to help others on their journey.
- Share your story to inspire and support those who are struggling.
8. Stay Connected:
- Reach out to Elliot at 785-201-2200 for support or questions about recovery.
- Visit the website evenoneless.com for additional resources and information.
9. Maintain Open-mindedness:
- Be willing to try new approaches and perspectives in your recovery journey.
- Stay open to the idea that change is possible, even if it seems difficult at first.
10. Practice Self-awareness:
- Reflect on your past experiences and how they've shaped your current behaviors.
- Work on identifying your character defects and be willing to address them.
By following these action points and embracing the themes discussed in the podcast, listeners can take steps towards their own recovery and personal growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I don't know if I get up today. I don't know if I give one single today,
My whole outlook is sunk in gray and I have no idea why I woke up this way Got
my phone in my right hand my books on the nightstand if I unlock and I add pop
I'm stuck there I'm a dead man.
So Lord give me the strength to please read one page if it works in any way
I'll move on to the next thing. Oh, I got my socks on Welcome to positively undefeated.
(00:23):
This is a podcast that talks about the day-to-day struggle ordinary people have
over their demons and how each day they remain positively undefeated.
We share ideas and ways that you can empower yourself to remain strong so that
you can embrace the journey of living.
(00:43):
Thank you guys for listening to our podcast, Positively Undefeated.
I'm Burl Stricker, your host.
I'm here with Elliot and Elliot, you've been on the program before.
Yes, sir. I'm so glad that you decided to come back on.
I think it's great for kind of an update and really to hear what's going on with you.
(01:04):
So tell me, how are things going with you?
In the last year and a half, my life has changed completely since moving down here.
Elk City. I started getting pretty active in the Way Church.
I went to the Way Church, got really active there, got active in the recovery
programs down here, went through AA, NA, and now I'm doing Codependence Anonymous.
(01:29):
I'm trying to venture out in that way. I'm just loving 12-step recovery,
and I'm just trying to do the best that I can. Yeah.
I mean, when you're talking about the codependence, can you kind of describe
for people listening kind of what the purpose of that meeting is and how you
think that it's had a positive impact on you?
(01:51):
Because people may hear that and not really understand what it means.
I understand. I understand. Great question. Okay.
So for me, for instance, one of my biggest codependency was,
is people would say something to me directly. It would hurt my feelings.
Then I would express my concern to other people. And then other people would
(02:12):
have a hard time believing me.
And then, so then the next day, then I was like, oh, it wasn't them.
It was just me. It was just my perception of what those people were, were thinking.
But I was doing that to protect their feelings and I didn't care about my feelings.
So it was every, I just wanted to make everybody else happy.
(02:32):
And I was just going to deal with the consequences for the long time.
And it caused me, caused me to suffer quite a bit.
I was worrying about other people's opinions or worrying about how other people
would react instead of how I can react to situations.
So I was more focused on other people than myself.
(02:55):
But now, since I've been down here and gone through the Way Church and gone
through the recovery down here, the AA and the NA, the steps, it really...
It's shown me like through going through the church and having recovery,
I've learned more about the benefits of myself and how I can help others.
(03:17):
I felt more, more comfortable, more at ease by sharing my experience because
I was no longer worried about other people's opinions.
It was my opinion that I was putting out there.
So I think that, that was, that was a big part for me about codependence.
That that's what, you know, and so, It almost seems like this,
(03:39):
what they call maybe a paradigm shift, because if we're, you know,
we hear that in like, especially recovered, we hear that we were very selfish
and maybe addiction, right?
Right. And then so then we transition to more about caring about others and
thinking about others first.
But then kind of what you're saying, it almost seems like a contradiction where
(04:02):
I'm not going to worry about so much what other people are doing,
but I'm going to worry about me.
So can you explain that paradigm and how people may get confused?
It's like, are we thinking about other people or are we thinking about our needs
first? and kind of, I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that.
That's, wow. Okay, so, hmm.
(04:25):
Man, that's a big one. Well, and maybe you see where I'm getting at. Yes, I do.
You do. Like, if you take the 12 steps, if you take step 12,
it's like you're basically, we want to spread the message.
We want to help other people.
And we understand how important that is. And it's a big part of recovery.
(04:47):
So from what you're saying, it's also, we have to, in some way,
and you've heard me say, I have to put my recovery first. And that kind of seems
like that idea is that we have to put our recovery first.
Is it kind of like people pleasing maybe a little bit? Is that we're trying
to please other people and not?
Well, see, yeah, that's the big thing about codependence is we want to make
(05:10):
sure everybody else is happy around us.
And it doesn't matter how we sustain it. And I think what I kind of go back
to the earlier question was, is until I could actually figure out what was wrong
with me, I couldn't really understand me.
So I didn't realize that if I go back and look at my childhood trauma and all
(05:32):
the things that happened to me in the past, I mean, that shapes who I am today.
So until I could realize that, hey, this traumatic experience was in the past
and I have moved on from this.
But with with trauma it doesn't matter
if you've already moved on from it if something happens you're
going to go right directly back to that that instance that trauma
(05:54):
and um i like when
i grew up like i had i had a decent childhood but i had a trouble childhood
i always i was always um i was trying to accommodate everybody else so it my
opinions never really stuck and never like Like I would say that I would have control over it,
(06:16):
but I would never really have control of the situation.
But that was the persona that I lived on most of my life.
I looked like I was put together. I acted like I was put together,
but inside I was completely broken.
I wasn't, I was nothing on that, nothing. I had no courage, no stamina,
(06:36):
no nothing on the inside of me.
But on the outside, I had this rough and tough exterior. But on the inside,
I was just, if somebody would say something, I would just be like water and I would just go with it.
I was never able to sustain my...
I never felt like I was strong enough to speak how I felt.
(06:56):
Because, like I said, I was always worried about other people's opinions.
And if I said something and they're like, oh, I don't believe that or I don't
this and like, then I'll just back away. I'll never go around that person again.
It's such a strange deal to me because I see parts of my life where I have been
very dependent upon most likely, you know, woman or that kind of like a relationship.
(07:20):
And, you know, I could see where times in my life where I didn't really stand
on my own two feet, you know, I really emotionally depended upon that,
that other person. And I see the bad in that.
I also, you know, as I think about it, I'm like, I worry about,
or I think about both sides of it.
(07:41):
It's like, we're, we need to learn to be independent, like our own independent
dependent person in this, in a relationship, whether it be a friendship or whether
it be a marriage or girlfriend, boyfriend kind of thing.
But also it seems like a fine line there.
There's a fine line between I can stand on my own and I can't,
(08:01):
you know, in this relationship and yet, but on the same point,
not be so dependent upon them and to affect it.
You know, what it comes down to is i think it negatively affected me
you know in because i was
so dependent and then have negatively affected both of
us maybe well i think that all stands for me for that for the instance like
(08:23):
it went all the way back to like the childhood trauma yeah and um and of course
like with my magnifying mind um so like well like we we were talking about this
like with the trauma like childhood trauma,
like we can look back at the instance.
I would say, oh, my uncle slapped me over the top of my head,
(08:45):
and that really embarrassed me.
So that was when I was seven years old. But, okay, so that was at seven. I'm 42 now.
Okay, my magnifying mind can say, well, instead of my uncle slapping me across
the head, and he, like, punched me and pulled out a gun and,
like, was pointing it at me.
So that's what my mind will do is it'll take that one little bit of trauma and
(09:10):
it'll just expand it. It'll just blow it out.
And then so until I could understand why I do that, why am I always looking for attention?
I'm always looking for something. I'm always looking for somebody else's positive
attention instead of looking for myself.
I was always looking for that gratification through somebody else.
(09:31):
Yeah. But until I could actually uncover what that was, then I wasn't able to move forward.
You think that like the 12 Steps program with the toy dependency,
how do you think that it's affected your relationship with God or your higher power?
How do you think that that has affected like the group setting?
(09:52):
Okay. For me, when it comes down to like the, okay, like when you go to AA,
it's like you've got your alcohol.
Alcohol we go to na you go to your narcotics you go to
your addiction like that when you go to codependency you're focused
on i think what makes you as an individual because before we were just focused
(10:14):
like on maybe like on alcohol or we're just focused on drugs well codependency
is more of a of a life thing we're not looking on the outside we're it's more of a direct inside look.
I mean, we're not getting confused between alcohol or drugs or some other kind
of mind-altered chemical.
We're really just focusing on the person. Yeah.
(10:35):
So it's not really about a substance. It's really kind of like your attitude
or the way you've dealt with problems and the way you've dealt with different
circumstances in your life.
You know, when it comes to mental health, relationships play a big part.
Like when you talk about suicide, for example. suicide i can't
tell you how many cases i've seen in my own family or
(10:57):
in other cases where there was this like we
call it toxic relationship that brought
one of them to the point where they felt like they didn't want to live anymore
like this despair and like even in my own family situation i i don't hold the
other person accountable at all in my mind because i know that it was something
(11:19):
within my cousin that caused this.
And I feel like that that is definitely an area of like codependence.
And when you, and it's something's gone awry in that whole situation.
You know, in a relationship, whenever you feel like this is so toxic that I
want to die because I don't want to be, you know, I can't live without this person or something.
(11:40):
That to me is like the ultimate example of codependency.
Yes, yes. and uh have you experienced kind
of that kind of situation where it's like part of
a relationship and it just didn't feel like
it was okay so this is this i mean this is the reason why i'm down here in oklahoma
yeah is because my last marriage um it was seven years but the last four years
(12:05):
of it um i was being really controlled by her i was not able to um um,
really get out and do my own thing.
I always had to fall along with her. I always had to do everything that she did.
And I felt, I felt that it was, that was my job. I just needed to make her happy.
But then after a while, then I started looking at myself and I'm like,
(12:26):
I don't do anything for myself.
I mean, I may go to meetings or like, um, at one time I went and got a part-time job.
She told me that I didn't need to get, get the part-time job.
She told me that I was messing up, I was doing the wrong thing,
but I was doing this for myself.
And that did not make her very happy. So that's the kind of relationship that I just came from.
(12:50):
And to have that kind of control, but to...
How do you think the 12-step, like the codependency, how do you think that that's
helped you kind of like see that situation in a different light?
Because in the book, it really, it talks about like the shame,
the trauma, the, the, the everything like that.
(13:10):
I mean, it just brings everything out into context.
Every, every single question I've ever had about in recovery,
I've, I've found it in that book.
And I've only had that book for maybe, maybe months, two months,
and I've already had to glue it back together. I mean, that book, it's just.
What's the name of the book? It's Codependence and Arms.
Oh, so I guess anybody can pick it up on that.
(13:32):
Oh, yeah. I think it sounds like a great read.
I'll have to order that. And I like to read on Kindle, so I either Kindle or
order it. But it sounds like a great book.
What do you think, like, is there like somebody listening that lives in a different
state or different town? I mean, how would they find out more information about
(13:52):
maybe a meeting in their area?
Okay. So the best thing that I found is, like when I was in Kansas,
we had the Central Kansas Mental Health Foundation, or CKF.
Down here in Elk City, it's the Red Rock. So that would probably be one of the
best questions or best places to go ask questions. Yeah.
(14:15):
I've been to people of sight, like all different kinds of sources.
But if you go to a place where they're really want to help people like,
yeah, at the bottom, they'll lead you in the right direction.
I think people are scared to death. And this is something that I want to help overcome.
But I think people are scared to death to go to an organization like Red Rock
(14:38):
and say, hey, I need some help. or I want to try to, you know,
I'm struggling in this area.
And they're scared to death of it. And it's almost like they feel like that
organization is going to lock them up and put them in a straight jacket,
padded room, and throw away the key.
And that's just not the way it works.
(14:59):
A lot of people will look at that, and a lot of people look at,
like, the recovery meetings, like AA or NA or something like that.
They're like, well, this is, okay.
Okay so for me i remember i remember when i was
taking guys through like walking guys through the
12 steps and um and i
would always i would always say it was like you know why it's always so hard
for a man to ask for help like to walk through the steps of recovery you remember
(15:23):
remember when you wanted to go ask that first girl out to dance or whatever
how nervous you were well it's the same thing as as a grown man and we still
have the same thing we're not gonna we feel ashamed It's a shame going to ask another man,
but until we do, then we realize that, hey.
Life is not as tough as I've made it. I mean, I just need to make the next action.
(15:46):
I don't need to make really a huge decision.
I just need to make the action. Do it. I think there's also this, I don't know.
I think there's this idea behind it that people are going to talk about it.
It's like, especially when you live in a small town, it's like,
oh, Elliot's attending this, you know, codependency or this AA meeting or this
(16:06):
NA meeting. And I think there's two sides to that.
One is, man, we need to be very, very recognized that, hey, there needs to be
some confidentiality in these groups.
And I think the other side is that you kind of have to let that go.
That's like that bravery and the fear of other people knowing.
(16:29):
You kind of have to let that go because you can't control what other people say and think.
You know what I mean? Right. And so, and I mean, I think you've dealt with that. I've dealt with that.
It's like, there is some shame involved with I'm having to ask for help and
I'm going to this meeting and,
you know, and I think that's a perfect example of where you can be so worried
(16:51):
about everybody else and what they're going to think about you going to get some help.
And yet, man, you not getting help is like the worst thing that you can do,
you know, Because you're not thinking about what's best for yourself, you know.
You're having thoughts really on that co-competentiality, but also getting over some of it.
(17:13):
Well, I think a lot of it, too, comes down to, like, the decision that I'm making.
Is this decision going to better other people's life, or is it going to better my life?
Yeah. And until I could fully concede to my innermost self that I needed help
and I needed to go to any length to get it, because I've ruined so many other
parts of my life that was more embarrassing than saying that,
(17:36):
hey, I'm, I'm powerless over alcohol or I'm powerless over, over drugs.
That's not as embarrassing as some of the other stuff that I've done.
So, and, um, to, to get that awareness of where I'm at right now is, is.
And it's like my first sponsor says, if you come to AA just to quit drinking,
(17:57):
you're missing the best part of AA because it's only the half of the first step
that says talks about alcohol or talks about her addiction.
And then the last of the 11 and a half steps is just a better way of life,
just a better way of living.
And the way we find that out is just if we go back to all the way back to our
(18:18):
childhood, That's why we take the step forward, take that fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
And when we do that, when we expose like how this person treated me when I was
younger and how maybe I treated them later on in life.
We find that out, like we find out what our character defects and our shortcomings were in step four.
(18:39):
And we kind of focus on those for the next, like through sixth and seventh.
And then when you get to eighth, then it's easier for us to become willing to make that list.
Became willing to make the list. We don't have to make the list right now.
We just have to become willing.
And it's just like when we go into step four, the spiritual principle behind that is courage.
(19:03):
Where do I get the courage for that spiritual principle?
And then when you look back, the first one is honesty. The first spiritual principle
is honesty. Then it's hope. And then faith.
And then with the faith, we get courage. But if we don't have that faith,
if we don't believe in something that is greater than ourselves,
we'll never change. I think that.
(19:24):
You know, I've said for a long time that I think that the 12 steps are a great,
you know, map, whatever, great program, whatever for living.
You know, and like, I think you agree that it's good for people who don't necessarily
struggle with addiction like alcohol or drugs, but yet just struggle, period.
(19:44):
Because there is, it's like, I think about it like a coping mechanism.
It's like you have coping mechanisms to deal with life, and sometimes those
are positive coping mechanisms, and sometimes they're negative.
And a lot of times they're negative. We found ways to take something that even
is good and turn it into a bad situation by coping with it negatively.
(20:09):
And so I think that our program is pretty phenomenal. And yet,
there is an unfortunate part because it is associated with dry xenophobe,
whereas it can expand beyond that.
I mean, obviously, what you mentioned is that you have these character defects.
We all do. We all do. And I think it's a positive way to learn to deal with
(20:34):
those character defects.
Right. And well, for me, to be honest, one of the things that that part of the
step work really taught me was that I had in the back of my head that either
God didn't ever want to get rid of these territory effects or I wasn't just
good enough or I couldn't fix it.
So either I looked eternally and kind of blamed it on myself,
(20:56):
like I'm different, I'm oddball, I can't seem to get my life together.
Together, or I looked at it like, God, either he's sitting up there laughing,
saying good morning, or, you know, he doesn't care.
You know, none of those options were very good.
And once you start to realize, no, he does have the power to remove character
defects, and that's part of, you
(21:18):
know, but I had to really understand that before I could let Nuri do that.
Right. You know, it's like the willingness, I guess, that we talk about a lot.
It seems like willingness that the maybe because of my preconceived notion,
the willingness wasn't there. Hmm.
I don't know. It's interesting. You're bringing that up.
(21:39):
I mean, because I remember like going through like when I first started working
the steps with my sponsor, like we would we would have we would go through the
serenity prayer and everybody like we know their serenity prayer.
But he would even do the full. He asked me to do the full serenity prayer And
I didn't know there was a full serenity prayer And I like what it says.
(22:00):
I'm just going to go ahead and read it It says, God grant me God grant me The
serenity to accept the things I cannot change The courage to change the things
that I can And the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships
as a pathway to peace, taking as Jesus did this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it,
(22:26):
trusting that you will make all things right if I surrender to your will,
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever in the next.
And until i could really until i
heard it said this way it said i i accepted
my hardships as a pathway to peace so
for me my hardships was like especially like
(22:48):
after after high school and then getting diagnosed
with ms going through going through the wheelchair
going through the seven years of
rehabilitation to be back where i'm at right now and then
going through all the the things that i went through i remember
i would ask god like why why are you doing this to
me why why am i going through these situations and then
(23:10):
later on then i was like i look back at
it five years from now and i'm like this is exactly the reason why i went through
these things i i have to accept these i gotta accept my past i gotta check these
hardships and not not saying that they're they're showing my weaknesses but
they're going to show my strength as long as i keep keep persevering through that.
(23:32):
And I have the willingness to keep, to keep moving forward. And, and.
Yeah. I think about like with your diagnosis of MS, you know,
that's life-changing out there.
Yes. And, you know, in part of it, it's like I think of my own brain thing.
Oh, if I ever got that, then I'd be, I'd just sit around and drink all the time, you know, whatever.
(23:54):
I think we give up. Yes.
When, and certain, you know, revelations or certain things happen in our life,
then we, you know, I think we have a tendency to kind of quit.
Yeah. And when we were talking about the character defects, I think that I had
quit on some of those character defects, just almost like this is the way I am, can't change it.
(24:16):
And I think that the 12 steps really opened up the door to realize that there
is, you know, I don't need to quit.
Right. Because, well, possibly I need to quit trying to figure it out myself.
Yeah. You know, that's probably really the problem. I'm trying to figure this
out and trying to figure out life and thinking God don't care because he allowed
(24:39):
this to happen or whatever.
And then what the 12 steps for me did was make me realize there was a solution.
There was an answer to this. And, you know, for me, it's like as much as I read
and study and whatever, self-help books, Christianity, all of it.
It's like i somehow i did not pick up on
(25:00):
the fact that he wanted to help and needed to and was well as
long as i was willing to help that willingness is
a strange word it really is because yeah i
think part of it is also us understanding that we we can't
you know get into that point where we just realize we can't do it
yeah you know i don't know i think that do you
think that that like in your opinion like the 12th step you
(25:22):
know a lot of people struggle with religion and they struggle with church
and you know that whole idea um do
you to me it's a very spiritual program how do
you how do you feel like that that spiritual program fits
into the the 12-step codependency if you if if you personally are not willing
to accept that there is a higher power or that you need help or that there there
(25:45):
there is a solution for what you're going through um but you're going to have
to do some extra work to get it done Um,
I think, I think that's okay.
Say, say the question again, sir. Well, I'm just saying, how do you think that
Christianity or, oh, okay.
Yeah. How does it fit into? Yeah. If you don't believe in a power that's greater
than yourself, if you don't feel like you need any help, you're never going to find a higher power.
(26:10):
Yeah. But until you get that, show that vulnerability and then showing that,
like have that open mind instead of that closed mind.
Cause I know like when I was in my active addiction, I just had a closed mind
that all I could think about was myself and how to make myself better.
But until something drastic happened.
(26:30):
Like a like an eye opening it was like i need to find a higher power i
i need to be i was hanging around people and
then they they convinced me that i need to put a higher power in
my life and then it's just been
it's been a slow very hot hard fought um process but i feel that like right
(26:51):
now i feel my faith is strong i feel my recovery strong i feel i feel very good
about about life right now I remember like a year and a half ago, like I wasn't.
When I moved down here from Kansas, I actually like came down here,
you know, I pretty much came down here to die.
I mean, the only thing that I brought from Kansas was my truck,
(27:14):
my dog, two chairs and a bed. It's all I brought down here.
And there was times where it would be like four days before I'd even like leave my apartment.
Apartment um and then my dog was there
and then like i mean he was i'd feed
him and stuff but i wouldn't i wouldn't let him go out and go in
(27:35):
the bathroom or something and like and so it was all over the house i
i just i just didn't care you know i just didn't care and then um i remember
we were at a meeting after after a noon meeting um i asked you where do you
go to church at you said delhi and then i started going there yeah so it was
just about putting myself around like-minded people.
(27:57):
And I think that's the biggest thing too, is people try to change their life,
but they're not changing their, their living situations.
They're, they're, they're situations where they're at.
And if I keep hanging out with people that do drugs, I'm going to keep doing
drugs. But if I hang around people that have, have faith and have,
they feel like they have a responsibility for life, then, then I can feed off
(28:19):
of that. Then I can continue to keep growing.
Think that's great i think that you know back to it and i think that some people listening may be,
confused maybe a little bit also by the higher power
thing and i would just
like to get your take on you know somebody that might
be listening it's like okay what what about this
(28:41):
higher power and what what do we what what do
we take from that what's your opinion on okay so
when we go on to step two it says came to believe that
a part of greater ourselves could restore us to sanity and it
says there it says came to believe like
at the time when we go through the second step
it says come to came to believe i mean that we don't have to believe in something
(29:05):
directly in step two going to step three we just have to be willing to to believe
that there's a power as we work through the steps then we get to find out a
higher power we get to find our god our own conception of that.
And so in step two, when it says come to believe that a power greater than myself,
(29:25):
I'm not going to look at your higher power.
I'm not going to look at somebody else's conception of the higher power.
I need to find that for myself. And that's why it says came to believe.
So, yeah, I've, I've really, to me,
that's been a great eye-opener for myself is because I
think that part of the hangup for
some people when it comes to maybe getting help is that
(29:48):
I have to believe what you believe or have
to go to the church you go to or have to
they think that in their mind and it's
like everybody has a huge gamut of like what they were brought up to believe
and their traditions and the ultimate deal is that you have to come to the point
(30:09):
where you believe that man I can't do this I just can't figure it out I can't.
And I think that it's a gift from God. I really do.
I feel like that God gave me and you a gift and other people,
which is this knowledge that we do need help.
And so then when you're thinking about, okay, I can't do this.
(30:30):
Now the next question is, well, who can?
Who can help me do this? And I think that's where it comes in.
And it's so easy to get caught in maybe those religious circles,
man-made religious circles, and not so much in really there's a real God.
There's something up there that will help me, is willing to help me.
(30:53):
And I think that there's some hang-ups there that's easy to get caught up in, it feels like to me. Yes.
And OK, so let's go back to the big book and talk about like the doctor's opinion,
like in the front of the book, the doctor's opinion in the big book.
And of course, this was back in the 30s and the 40s, early 40s.
(31:14):
It was talking about like these men that had to be like low bottom drunks only,
like if they still had a job, they couldn't they couldn't go to AA.
If they still had a wife, they couldn't come.
Like all these things. And then Dr.
Silkworth said in his second letter, he says.
(31:43):
I could become aware enough of how far down that I was and then I needed help to get out of it.
Um, and I needed to, like, I needed to stop having a closed mind and having that open mind.
I need to have an open mind. And then after I had the open mind,
I needed to have the willingness.
And then, um, one of the things, especially like when I was selling insurance,
(32:05):
um, it matters the way that things are written and the way that things are written.
You can get a whole different perspective of things.
And so like on the serenity prayer, it says, God, grant me the serenity to accept
the things that I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.
Instead of the, it's this.
(32:28):
So God, grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change.
This courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference.
This courage is by working the steps by saying this prayer this courage that i'm getting by,
bettering myself that's the courage that i'm talking
about and until until i could really like look
(32:49):
at it that way i mean like i said like the difference in the word i mean it's
just changing the word it's just like all these different groups like the aa
it's alcohol na it's addict um and then like all these different different places
just one word it's changed everything else is still the same.
So why not change the to this? The courage. What is the courage? What is that? What is...
(33:13):
And it's this courage that I get by working through the steps.
Getting discouraged what's good stuff well you
know you probably i asked you this last
time when you're on the podcast by the way if you guys are listening and
you didn't hear la it's first podcast i think it was like a year ago is that
right you're an advocate yeah so we you need to go back and go look back and
(33:35):
listen to that podcast because it was a great it was a great podcast and you
know but i asked you then and the same thing now if people want to reach out
to you What's the best way for them to kind of reach out?
Maybe they want to ask you some questions or connect.
What's the best way to do that? I absolutely love to get out my phone number.
(33:56):
And if you guys are ready, it's 785-201-2200. And if you want to talk about
recovery, you can call me at any time. It does not matter.
It could be 2 o'clock in the morning. I'd love to talk to you about recovery.
But if it's not about recovery, don't call me.
But I think that that gives an opportunity for people who are interested or have more questions.
(34:19):
And, you know, I think the idea of really this podcast is to create discussion, create,
you know, also fellowship between
people who may be like-minded and like struggling with the same things.
And so I think that if somebody is listening and they're struggling with something,
(34:39):
that they can reach out to you and really, maybe it's just prompting a question
that might bring about some change in their lives.
One of the big things that was told to me early in recovery when I went in there,
he said, keep coming back.
We'll love you until you can learn to love yourself. self
yeah and i did not
(35:00):
understand the whole concept of it but they said keep coming
back it works if you work it so i
just kept coming back and then um i had uh well i guess he was like a mentor
he said he goes ellie you know you can't get this program by asmosis you can't
just come into the program sit on your ass and hear listen to everybody talk
(35:21):
right you got to take the action that's behind it.
And that requires the willingness and it requires acceptance to keep moving forward.
If you have somebody listening who's like they just
don't feel motivated or feel like they have the willingness
you know i mean like you mentioned it while going
you're talking about your dog and taking them out i think
(35:42):
that you know it's classic what we would call what
the medical people would call depression right you
know what if they're in that dark place and they're just struggling with the
willingness what would your advice be to somebody like that because you've been
there i've been there that's exactly why i want to do the podcast and that's
why i want to keep doing this because sometimes people are scared to ask for
(36:04):
help, but it's easy for them to turn on the radio.
And then, um, it's like in the program, it says that, um, we're a bunch of men
and women that are like people that normally would not mix.
And then unless we've met each other in AA or in that program,
that's the only way we, we'd get together.
Um, so I think by listening to like a program, by listening to the commonality,
(36:28):
like we all have the same, we all have the same, problem.
And we all were looking for the same solution, some kind of mind-altering chemical.
And so we're all the same. So please don't be scared to reach out.
Go to a meeting, go to church, just talk to somebody.
(36:48):
Once we do that, it's such a freeing experience and the ability to actually love who I am today.
Like, look, when I go into the bathroom and I go in there, wash my face,
brush my teeth, I can actually look at the man in the mirror and say,
I love who I am today, or I appreciate who that guy is today.
(37:09):
But if I keep focusing on me, I won't even go into the bathroom.
I won't even look at the mirror. I won't even know that I exist.
So, but now I feel comfortable enough to walk into the bathroom and see myself.
Well, look at myself in the mirror to realize that I am here and I am present.
(37:30):
And then Dr. No, I'm sorry. Bill Wilson talks about it. And he talks about being
rocketed into the fourth dimension of existence.
And you think like dimension, you think like the three, the height,
the width, length and the width.
OK, height, width, length. And so what's the fourth dimension?
Well, the fourth dimension is time. and it's
(37:52):
the ability to say i'm here right
now i'm i'm here i'm not nowhere
else but i'm here and that's that's what i that and
that's what the serenity and that's what's what the peace and the courage that
we get in the program it gives us later on in life it gives us or gives us later
on it gives us that serenity and we want to help people instead of asking for
(38:14):
help we want to help people because in the in the program it says that we have
to to keep it we We have to give it away.
Think you brought it i mean we mentioned that we both mentioned this
like man it's nice to be able to find somebody you can
talk to and that has been where you've been yeah and
i think that if you had to break it down to the lowest common
(38:35):
denominator except man we all struggle and
we can help each other just and you know
that is it's not selling something
it's offering something right which is free but
yet it's such a big one to go from you
know where you're at sometimes to that because you're
just it's almost also like we don't trust people because
(38:57):
we're afraid they're going to want something in return and really
these programs are not based on what you what you have to pay for that's our
oh that's our old person that's what we old way of thinking yeah it's not it's
about it's really you know it's like we talked about the paradigm shift it's
like you You start out needing, you need help.
(39:18):
And then, you know, eventually, and think about it.
If that program really works, then it should convert from, hey,
I've been helped. Now I'm going to help other people.
And I think that that's what you're seeing in, you know, we're seeing in your
life is that you went from, I went from the self-pity situation.
Yeah. I definitely was dealing with self-pity. Yeah. And now to be able to convert
(39:40):
that to I'm going to help other people.
Yeah. That's definitely, you know, that comes from God.
And I think the powerfulness of the program.
I also wanted to say this, too, and I wanted to say it earlier.
When I was in the hospital after my MS, after I was laying in there for two
months, and I remember it was the chaplain of the hospital.
(40:03):
He walks in there and he asked me how I was doing that day. And I said, I'm not doing very good.
And he goes, well, he goes, Elliot.
And he goes, I can see you look like a very happy guy. It looks like he could
be a really happy guy, but there's something that's holding you down.
And it's this MS diagnosis.
He goes, Elliot, he goes, you have MS, but MS doesn't have you.
(40:28):
And I'm like, oh, that's good. That's good.
Then I heard a guy a couple of months ago, he's talking about,
he goes, he goes, I'm on antidepressants, but I'm not a depressed person.
I'm not depressed all the time. I battle with depression.
So it's like, I'm not a depressed person, but I battle with depression.
(40:50):
So, um, like you could say, um.
Like, my name is Elliot. I battle with alcoholism.
I mean, just by changing, just changing the words, it's just easier.
There's different coping mechanisms through everything. Well,
I think what you're talking about, I also, I call it like an identity.
(41:12):
It's easy to identify yourself as a depressed person.
It's easy to identify yourself as an alcoholic.
It's usually identity. But those aren't true identity.
In it no you know yes you struggle with those things and i
think that's one of the things that people have problems with with
like i'll call it synonymous and is that they don't
they don't love the idea of like always um
(41:35):
being labeled they don't understand
their stroke yeah you know what i mean you're not you're not
all the time labeled as that though yeah i mean yeah and
so but part of the understanding i mean really the
idea behind it is is that it shows this you're
intended on one thing you need to be dependent on another right
and it's really the identity of that dependency
(41:57):
and so once you identify
that hey i'm depending on the
right thing then the other thing that you've been dependent on that really becomes
not so important you know but it is an identity thing i mean really if everything
if if you only identify yourself as a person as ms then that That looks like a bleak future.
(42:21):
It's very limited, yeah. But if you identify yourself as a child of God who
has literally been brought to this earth to maybe spread this message that we're
talking about, then that changes really the identity of who you are.
But sometimes we can't see that through what our current identity is.
And maybe that identity has been in our life for 30 years.
And that's where it becomes very difficult to break that habit of,
(42:45):
this is where I look as I look at myself. So good stuff.
Yeah. Well, brother, I'm looking forward to the idea of us doing another podcast together.
And just, you know, we talked about, you know, maybe having kind of a group
session and the discussion.
And I think people really enjoy that. So, you know, you let me know how I can help.
(43:05):
And we'd love to be a part of that.
For you guys listening, you know, go to our website, evenoneless.com.
And, you know, that's a way you connect with us. there's
all kinds of resources on there and also
you have Ellie's number now and if you feel.
Music.
Like something you said brought a question or
(43:26):
you would like to know what he's talking about
of course reach out to him and thank you guys for listening and hope you have
a great day and I just want to say one other thing too my number is 785-201-2200
if you have a question and you don't really feel like talking, text me.
(43:48):
Text me the question and I'll answer that that way. I can do that too.
Music.
I don't know if I get up today. I don't know if I give one single today,
My whole outlook is sunk in gray and I have no idea why I woke up this way Got
my phone in my right hand my books on the nightstand if I unlock and I add pop
I'm stuck there I'm a dead man.
So Lord give me the strength to please read one page if it works in any way
I'll move on to the next thing. Oh, I got my socks on Welcome to positively undefeated.
(00:23):
This is a podcast that talks about the day-to-day struggle ordinary people have
over their demons and how each day they remain positively undefeated.
We share ideas and ways that you can empower yourself to remain strong so that
you can embrace the journey of living.
(00:43):
Thank you guys for listening to our podcast, Positively Undefeated.
I'm Burl Stricker, your host.
I'm here with Elliot and Elliot, you've been on the program before.
Yes, sir. I'm so glad that you decided to come back on.
I think it's great for kind of an update and really to hear what's going on with you.
(01:04):
So tell me, how are things going with you?
In the last year and a half, my life has changed completely since moving down here.
Elk City. I started getting pretty active in the Way Church.
I went to the Way Church, got really active there, got active in the recovery
programs down here, went through AA, NA, and now I'm doing Codependence Anonymous.
(01:29):
I'm trying to venture out in that way. I'm just loving 12-step recovery,
and I'm just trying to do the best that I can. Yeah.
I mean, when you're talking about the codependence, can you kind of describe
for people listening kind of what the purpose of that meeting is and how you
think that it's had a positive impact on you?
(01:51):
Because people may hear that and not really understand what it means.
I understand. I understand. Great question. Okay.
So for me, for instance, one of my biggest codependency was,
is people would say something to me directly. It would hurt my feelings.
Then I would express my concern to other people. And then other people would
(02:12):
have a hard time believing me.
And then, so then the next day, then I was like, oh, it wasn't them.
It was just me. It was just my perception of what those people were, were thinking.
But I was doing that to protect their feelings and I didn't care about my feelings.
So it was every, I just wanted to make everybody else happy.
(02:32):
And I was just going to deal with the consequences for the long time.
And it caused me, caused me to suffer quite a bit.
I was worrying about other people's opinions or worrying about how other people
would react instead of how I can react to situations.
So I was more focused on other people than myself.
(02:55):
But now, since I've been down here and gone through the Way Church and gone
through the recovery down here, the AA and the NA, the steps, it really...
It's shown me like through going through the church and having recovery,
I've learned more about the benefits of myself and how I can help others.
(03:17):
I felt more, more comfortable, more at ease by sharing my experience because
I was no longer worried about other people's opinions.
It was my opinion that I was putting out there.
So I think that, that was, that was a big part for me about codependence.
That that's what, you know, and so, It almost seems like this,
(03:39):
what they call maybe a paradigm shift, because if we're, you know,
we hear that in like, especially recovered, we hear that we were very selfish
and maybe addiction, right?
Right. And then so then we transition to more about caring about others and
thinking about others first.
But then kind of what you're saying, it almost seems like a contradiction where
(04:02):
I'm not going to worry about so much what other people are doing,
but I'm going to worry about me.
So can you explain that paradigm and how people may get confused?
It's like, are we thinking about other people or are we thinking about our needs
first? and kind of, I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that.
That's, wow. Okay, so, hmm.
(04:25):
Man, that's a big one. Well, and maybe you see where I'm getting at. Yes, I do.
You do. Like, if you take the 12 steps, if you take step 12,
it's like you're basically, we want to spread the message.
We want to help other people.
And we understand how important that is. And it's a big part of recovery.
(04:47):
So from what you're saying, it's also, we have to, in some way,
and you've heard me say, I have to put my recovery first. And that kind of seems
like that idea is that we have to put our recovery first.
Is it kind of like people pleasing maybe a little bit? Is that we're trying
to please other people and not?
Well, see, yeah, that's the big thing about codependence is we want to make
(05:10):
sure everybody else is happy around us.
And it doesn't matter how we sustain it. And I think what I kind of go back
to the earlier question was, is until I could actually figure out what was wrong
with me, I couldn't really understand me.
So I didn't realize that if I go back and look at my childhood trauma and all
(05:32):
the things that happened to me in the past, I mean, that shapes who I am today.
So until I could realize that, hey, this traumatic experience was in the past
and I have moved on from this.
But with with trauma it doesn't matter
if you've already moved on from it if something happens you're
going to go right directly back to that that instance that trauma
(05:54):
and um i like when
i grew up like i had i had a decent childhood but i had a trouble childhood
i always i was always um i was trying to accommodate everybody else so it my
opinions never really stuck and never like Like I would say that I would have control over it,
(06:16):
but I would never really have control of the situation.
But that was the persona that I lived on most of my life.
I looked like I was put together. I acted like I was put together,
but inside I was completely broken.
I wasn't, I was nothing on that, nothing. I had no courage, no stamina,
(06:36):
no nothing on the inside of me.
But on the outside, I had this rough and tough exterior. But on the inside,
I was just, if somebody would say something, I would just be like water and I would just go with it.
I was never able to sustain my...
I never felt like I was strong enough to speak how I felt.
(06:56):
Because, like I said, I was always worried about other people's opinions.
And if I said something and they're like, oh, I don't believe that or I don't
this and like, then I'll just back away. I'll never go around that person again.
It's such a strange deal to me because I see parts of my life where I have been
very dependent upon most likely, you know, woman or that kind of like a relationship.
(07:20):
And, you know, I could see where times in my life where I didn't really stand
on my own two feet, you know, I really emotionally depended upon that,
that other person. And I see the bad in that.
I also, you know, as I think about it, I'm like, I worry about,
or I think about both sides of it.
(07:41):
It's like, we're, we need to learn to be independent, like our own independent
dependent person in this, in a relationship, whether it be a friendship or whether
it be a marriage or girlfriend, boyfriend kind of thing.
But also it seems like a fine line there.
There's a fine line between I can stand on my own and I can't,
(08:01):
you know, in this relationship and yet, but on the same point,
not be so dependent upon them and to affect it.
You know, what it comes down to is i think it negatively affected me
you know in because i was
so dependent and then have negatively affected both of
us maybe well i think that all stands for me for that for the instance like
(08:23):
it went all the way back to like the childhood trauma yeah and um and of course
like with my magnifying mind um so like well like we we were talking about this
like with the trauma like childhood trauma,
like we can look back at the instance.
I would say, oh, my uncle slapped me over the top of my head,
(08:45):
and that really embarrassed me.
So that was when I was seven years old. But, okay, so that was at seven. I'm 42 now.
Okay, my magnifying mind can say, well, instead of my uncle slapping me across
the head, and he, like, punched me and pulled out a gun and,
like, was pointing it at me.
So that's what my mind will do is it'll take that one little bit of trauma and
(09:10):
it'll just expand it. It'll just blow it out.
And then so until I could understand why I do that, why am I always looking for attention?
I'm always looking for something. I'm always looking for somebody else's positive
attention instead of looking for myself.
I was always looking for that gratification through somebody else.
(09:31):
Yeah. But until I could actually uncover what that was, then I wasn't able to move forward.
You think that like the 12 Steps program with the toy dependency,
how do you think that it's affected your relationship with God or your higher power?
How do you think that that has affected like the group setting?
(09:52):
Okay. For me, when it comes down to like the, okay, like when you go to AA,
it's like you've got your alcohol.
Alcohol we go to na you go to your narcotics you go to
your addiction like that when you go to codependency you're focused
on i think what makes you as an individual because before we were just focused
(10:14):
like on maybe like on alcohol or we're just focused on drugs well codependency
is more of a of a life thing we're not looking on the outside we're it's more of a direct inside look.
I mean, we're not getting confused between alcohol or drugs or some other kind
of mind-altered chemical.
We're really just focusing on the person. Yeah.
(10:35):
So it's not really about a substance. It's really kind of like your attitude
or the way you've dealt with problems and the way you've dealt with different
circumstances in your life.
You know, when it comes to mental health, relationships play a big part.
Like when you talk about suicide, for example. suicide i can't
tell you how many cases i've seen in my own family or
(10:57):
in other cases where there was this like we
call it toxic relationship that brought
one of them to the point where they felt like they didn't want to live anymore
like this despair and like even in my own family situation i i don't hold the
other person accountable at all in my mind because i know that it was something
(11:19):
within my cousin that caused this.
And I feel like that that is definitely an area of like codependence.
And when you, and it's something's gone awry in that whole situation.
You know, in a relationship, whenever you feel like this is so toxic that I
want to die because I don't want to be, you know, I can't live without this person or something.
(11:40):
That to me is like the ultimate example of codependency.
Yes, yes. and uh have you experienced kind
of that kind of situation where it's like part of
a relationship and it just didn't feel like
it was okay so this is this i mean this is the reason why i'm down here in oklahoma
yeah is because my last marriage um it was seven years but the last four years
(12:05):
of it um i was being really controlled by her i was not able to um um,
really get out and do my own thing.
I always had to fall along with her. I always had to do everything that she did.
And I felt, I felt that it was, that was my job. I just needed to make her happy.
But then after a while, then I started looking at myself and I'm like,
(12:26):
I don't do anything for myself.
I mean, I may go to meetings or like, um, at one time I went and got a part-time job.
She told me that I didn't need to get, get the part-time job.
She told me that I was messing up, I was doing the wrong thing,
but I was doing this for myself.
And that did not make her very happy. So that's the kind of relationship that I just came from.
(12:50):
And to have that kind of control, but to...
How do you think the 12-step, like the codependency, how do you think that that's
helped you kind of like see that situation in a different light?
Because in the book, it really, it talks about like the shame,
the trauma, the, the, the everything like that.
(13:10):
I mean, it just brings everything out into context.
Every, every single question I've ever had about in recovery,
I've, I've found it in that book.
And I've only had that book for maybe, maybe months, two months,
and I've already had to glue it back together. I mean, that book, it's just.
What's the name of the book? It's Codependence and Arms.
Oh, so I guess anybody can pick it up on that.
(13:32):
Oh, yeah. I think it sounds like a great read.
I'll have to order that. And I like to read on Kindle, so I either Kindle or
order it. But it sounds like a great book.
What do you think, like, is there like somebody listening that lives in a different
state or different town? I mean, how would they find out more information about
(13:52):
maybe a meeting in their area?
Okay. So the best thing that I found is, like when I was in Kansas,
we had the Central Kansas Mental Health Foundation, or CKF.
Down here in Elk City, it's the Red Rock. So that would probably be one of the
best questions or best places to go ask questions. Yeah.
(14:15):
I've been to people of sight, like all different kinds of sources.
But if you go to a place where they're really want to help people like,
yeah, at the bottom, they'll lead you in the right direction.
I think people are scared to death. And this is something that I want to help overcome.
But I think people are scared to death to go to an organization like Red Rock
(14:38):
and say, hey, I need some help. or I want to try to, you know,
I'm struggling in this area.
And they're scared to death of it. And it's almost like they feel like that
organization is going to lock them up and put them in a straight jacket,
padded room, and throw away the key.
And that's just not the way it works.
(14:59):
A lot of people will look at that, and a lot of people look at,
like, the recovery meetings, like AA or NA or something like that.
They're like, well, this is, okay.
Okay so for me i remember i remember when i was
taking guys through like walking guys through the
12 steps and um and i
would always i would always say it was like you know why it's always so hard
for a man to ask for help like to walk through the steps of recovery you remember
(15:23):
remember when you wanted to go ask that first girl out to dance or whatever
how nervous you were well it's the same thing as as a grown man and we still
have the same thing we're not gonna we feel ashamed It's a shame going to ask another man,
but until we do, then we realize that, hey.
Life is not as tough as I've made it. I mean, I just need to make the next action.
(15:46):
I don't need to make really a huge decision.
I just need to make the action. Do it. I think there's also this, I don't know.
I think there's this idea behind it that people are going to talk about it.
It's like, especially when you live in a small town, it's like,
oh, Elliot's attending this, you know, codependency or this AA meeting or this
(16:06):
NA meeting. And I think there's two sides to that.
One is, man, we need to be very, very recognized that, hey, there needs to be
some confidentiality in these groups.
And I think the other side is that you kind of have to let that go.
That's like that bravery and the fear of other people knowing.
(16:29):
You kind of have to let that go because you can't control what other people say and think.
You know what I mean? Right. And so, and I mean, I think you've dealt with that. I've dealt with that.
It's like, there is some shame involved with I'm having to ask for help and
I'm going to this meeting and,
you know, and I think that's a perfect example of where you can be so worried
(16:51):
about everybody else and what they're going to think about you going to get some help.
And yet, man, you not getting help is like the worst thing that you can do,
you know, Because you're not thinking about what's best for yourself, you know.
You're having thoughts really on that co-competentiality, but also getting over some of it.
(17:13):
Well, I think a lot of it, too, comes down to, like, the decision that I'm making.
Is this decision going to better other people's life, or is it going to better my life?
Yeah. And until I could fully concede to my innermost self that I needed help
and I needed to go to any length to get it, because I've ruined so many other
parts of my life that was more embarrassing than saying that,
(17:36):
hey, I'm, I'm powerless over alcohol or I'm powerless over, over drugs.
That's not as embarrassing as some of the other stuff that I've done.
So, and, um, to, to get that awareness of where I'm at right now is, is.
And it's like my first sponsor says, if you come to AA just to quit drinking,
(17:57):
you're missing the best part of AA because it's only the half of the first step
that says talks about alcohol or talks about her addiction.
And then the last of the 11 and a half steps is just a better way of life,
just a better way of living.
And the way we find that out is just if we go back to all the way back to our
(18:18):
childhood, That's why we take the step forward, take that fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
And when we do that, when we expose like how this person treated me when I was
younger and how maybe I treated them later on in life.
We find that out, like we find out what our character defects and our shortcomings were in step four.
(18:39):
And we kind of focus on those for the next, like through sixth and seventh.
And then when you get to eighth, then it's easier for us to become willing to make that list.
Became willing to make the list. We don't have to make the list right now.
We just have to become willing.
And it's just like when we go into step four, the spiritual principle behind that is courage.
(19:03):
Where do I get the courage for that spiritual principle?
And then when you look back, the first one is honesty. The first spiritual principle
is honesty. Then it's hope. And then faith.
And then with the faith, we get courage. But if we don't have that faith,
if we don't believe in something that is greater than ourselves,
we'll never change. I think that.
(19:24):
You know, I've said for a long time that I think that the 12 steps are a great,
you know, map, whatever, great program, whatever for living.
You know, and like, I think you agree that it's good for people who don't necessarily
struggle with addiction like alcohol or drugs, but yet just struggle, period.
(19:44):
Because there is, it's like, I think about it like a coping mechanism.
It's like you have coping mechanisms to deal with life, and sometimes those
are positive coping mechanisms, and sometimes they're negative.
And a lot of times they're negative. We found ways to take something that even
is good and turn it into a bad situation by coping with it negatively.
(20:09):
And so I think that our program is pretty phenomenal. And yet,
there is an unfortunate part because it is associated with dry xenophobe,
whereas it can expand beyond that.
I mean, obviously, what you mentioned is that you have these character defects.
We all do. We all do. And I think it's a positive way to learn to deal with
(20:34):
those character defects.
Right. And well, for me, to be honest, one of the things that that part of the
step work really taught me was that I had in the back of my head that either
God didn't ever want to get rid of these territory effects or I wasn't just
good enough or I couldn't fix it.
So either I looked eternally and kind of blamed it on myself,
(20:56):
like I'm different, I'm oddball, I can't seem to get my life together.
Together, or I looked at it like, God, either he's sitting up there laughing,
saying good morning, or, you know, he doesn't care.
You know, none of those options were very good.
And once you start to realize, no, he does have the power to remove character
defects, and that's part of, you
(21:18):
know, but I had to really understand that before I could let Nuri do that.
Right. You know, it's like the willingness, I guess, that we talk about a lot.
It seems like willingness that the maybe because of my preconceived notion,
the willingness wasn't there. Hmm.
I don't know. It's interesting. You're bringing that up.
(21:39):
I mean, because I remember like going through like when I first started working
the steps with my sponsor, like we would we would have we would go through the
serenity prayer and everybody like we know their serenity prayer.
But he would even do the full. He asked me to do the full serenity prayer And
I didn't know there was a full serenity prayer And I like what it says.
(22:00):
I'm just going to go ahead and read it It says, God grant me God grant me The
serenity to accept the things I cannot change The courage to change the things
that I can And the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships
as a pathway to peace, taking as Jesus did this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it,
(22:26):
trusting that you will make all things right if I surrender to your will,
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever in the next.
And until i could really until i
heard it said this way it said i i accepted
my hardships as a pathway to peace so
for me my hardships was like especially like
(22:48):
after after high school and then getting diagnosed
with ms going through going through the wheelchair
going through the seven years of
rehabilitation to be back where i'm at right now and then
going through all the the things that i went through i remember
i would ask god like why why are you doing this to
me why why am i going through these situations and then
(23:10):
later on then i was like i look back at
it five years from now and i'm like this is exactly the reason why i went through
these things i i have to accept these i gotta accept my past i gotta check these
hardships and not not saying that they're they're showing my weaknesses but
they're going to show my strength as long as i keep keep persevering through that.
(23:32):
And I have the willingness to keep, to keep moving forward. And, and.
Yeah. I think about like with your diagnosis of MS, you know,
that's life-changing out there.
Yes. And, you know, in part of it, it's like I think of my own brain thing.
Oh, if I ever got that, then I'd be, I'd just sit around and drink all the time, you know, whatever.
(23:54):
I think we give up. Yes.
When, and certain, you know, revelations or certain things happen in our life,
then we, you know, I think we have a tendency to kind of quit.
Yeah. And when we were talking about the character defects, I think that I had
quit on some of those character defects, just almost like this is the way I am, can't change it.
(24:16):
And I think that the 12 steps really opened up the door to realize that there
is, you know, I don't need to quit.
Right. Because, well, possibly I need to quit trying to figure it out myself.
Yeah. You know, that's probably really the problem. I'm trying to figure this
out and trying to figure out life and thinking God don't care because he allowed
(24:39):
this to happen or whatever.
And then what the 12 steps for me did was make me realize there was a solution.
There was an answer to this. And, you know, for me, it's like as much as I read
and study and whatever, self-help books, Christianity, all of it.
It's like i somehow i did not pick up on
(25:00):
the fact that he wanted to help and needed to and was well as
long as i was willing to help that willingness is
a strange word it really is because yeah i
think part of it is also us understanding that we we can't
you know get into that point where we just realize we can't do it
yeah you know i don't know i think that do you
think that that like in your opinion like the 12th step you
(25:22):
know a lot of people struggle with religion and they struggle with church
and you know that whole idea um do
you to me it's a very spiritual program how do
you how do you feel like that that spiritual program fits
into the the 12-step codependency if you if if you personally are not willing
to accept that there is a higher power or that you need help or that there there
(25:45):
there is a solution for what you're going through um but you're going to have
to do some extra work to get it done Um,
I think, I think that's okay.
Say, say the question again, sir. Well, I'm just saying, how do you think that
Christianity or, oh, okay.
Yeah. How does it fit into? Yeah. If you don't believe in a power that's greater
than yourself, if you don't feel like you need any help, you're never going to find a higher power.
(26:10):
Yeah. But until you get that, show that vulnerability and then showing that,
like have that open mind instead of that closed mind.
Cause I know like when I was in my active addiction, I just had a closed mind
that all I could think about was myself and how to make myself better.
But until something drastic happened.
(26:30):
Like a like an eye opening it was like i need to find a higher power i
i need to be i was hanging around people and
then they they convinced me that i need to put a higher power in
my life and then it's just been
it's been a slow very hot hard fought um process but i feel that like right
(26:51):
now i feel my faith is strong i feel my recovery strong i feel i feel very good
about about life right now I remember like a year and a half ago, like I wasn't.
When I moved down here from Kansas, I actually like came down here,
you know, I pretty much came down here to die.
I mean, the only thing that I brought from Kansas was my truck,
(27:14):
my dog, two chairs and a bed. It's all I brought down here.
And there was times where it would be like four days before I'd even like leave my apartment.
Apartment um and then my dog was there
and then like i mean he was i'd feed
him and stuff but i wouldn't i wouldn't let him go out and go in
(27:35):
the bathroom or something and like and so it was all over the house i
i just i just didn't care you know i just didn't care and then um i remember
we were at a meeting after after a noon meeting um i asked you where do you
go to church at you said delhi and then i started going there yeah so it was
just about putting myself around like-minded people.
(27:57):
And I think that's the biggest thing too, is people try to change their life,
but they're not changing their, their living situations.
They're, they're, they're situations where they're at.
And if I keep hanging out with people that do drugs, I'm going to keep doing
drugs. But if I hang around people that have, have faith and have,
they feel like they have a responsibility for life, then, then I can feed off
(28:19):
of that. Then I can continue to keep growing.
Think that's great i think that you know back to it and i think that some people listening may be,
confused maybe a little bit also by the higher power
thing and i would just
like to get your take on you know somebody that might
be listening it's like okay what what about this
(28:41):
higher power and what what do we what what do
we take from that what's your opinion on okay so
when we go on to step two it says came to believe that
a part of greater ourselves could restore us to sanity and it
says there it says came to believe like
at the time when we go through the second step
it says come to came to believe i mean that we don't have to believe in something
(29:05):
directly in step two going to step three we just have to be willing to to believe
that there's a power as we work through the steps then we get to find out a
higher power we get to find our god our own conception of that.
And so in step two, when it says come to believe that a power greater than myself,
(29:25):
I'm not going to look at your higher power.
I'm not going to look at somebody else's conception of the higher power.
I need to find that for myself. And that's why it says came to believe.
So, yeah, I've, I've really, to me,
that's been a great eye-opener for myself is because I
think that part of the hangup for
some people when it comes to maybe getting help is that
(29:48):
I have to believe what you believe or have
to go to the church you go to or have to
they think that in their mind and it's
like everybody has a huge gamut of like what they were brought up to believe
and their traditions and the ultimate deal is that you have to come to the point
(30:09):
where you believe that man I can't do this I just can't figure it out I can't.
And I think that it's a gift from God. I really do.
I feel like that God gave me and you a gift and other people,
which is this knowledge that we do need help.
And so then when you're thinking about, okay, I can't do this.
(30:30):
Now the next question is, well, who can?
Who can help me do this? And I think that's where it comes in.
And it's so easy to get caught in maybe those religious circles,
man-made religious circles, and not so much in really there's a real God.
There's something up there that will help me, is willing to help me.
(30:53):
And I think that there's some hang-ups there that's easy to get caught up in, it feels like to me. Yes.
And OK, so let's go back to the big book and talk about like the doctor's opinion,
like in the front of the book, the doctor's opinion in the big book.
And of course, this was back in the 30s and the 40s, early 40s.
(31:14):
It was talking about like these men that had to be like low bottom drunks only,
like if they still had a job, they couldn't they couldn't go to AA.
If they still had a wife, they couldn't come.
Like all these things. And then Dr.
Silkworth said in his second letter, he says.
(31:43):
I could become aware enough of how far down that I was and then I needed help to get out of it.
Um, and I needed to, like, I needed to stop having a closed mind and having that open mind.
I need to have an open mind. And then after I had the open mind,
I needed to have the willingness.
And then, um, one of the things, especially like when I was selling insurance,
(32:05):
um, it matters the way that things are written and the way that things are written.
You can get a whole different perspective of things.
And so like on the serenity prayer, it says, God, grant me the serenity to accept
the things that I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.
Instead of the, it's this.
(32:28):
So God, grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change.
This courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference.
This courage is by working the steps by saying this prayer this courage that i'm getting by,
bettering myself that's the courage that i'm talking
about and until until i could really like look
(32:49):
at it that way i mean like i said like the difference in the word i mean it's
just changing the word it's just like all these different groups like the aa
it's alcohol na it's addict um and then like all these different different places
just one word it's changed everything else is still the same.
So why not change the to this? The courage. What is the courage? What is that? What is...
(33:13):
And it's this courage that I get by working through the steps.
Getting discouraged what's good stuff well you
know you probably i asked you this last
time when you're on the podcast by the way if you guys are listening and
you didn't hear la it's first podcast i think it was like a year ago is that
right you're an advocate yeah so we you need to go back and go look back and
(33:35):
listen to that podcast because it was a great it was a great podcast and you
know but i asked you then and the same thing now if people want to reach out
to you What's the best way for them to kind of reach out?
Maybe they want to ask you some questions or connect.
What's the best way to do that? I absolutely love to get out my phone number.
(33:56):
And if you guys are ready, it's 785-201-2200. And if you want to talk about
recovery, you can call me at any time. It does not matter.
It could be 2 o'clock in the morning. I'd love to talk to you about recovery.
But if it's not about recovery, don't call me.
But I think that that gives an opportunity for people who are interested or have more questions.
(34:19):
And, you know, I think the idea of really this podcast is to create discussion, create,
you know, also fellowship between
people who may be like-minded and like struggling with the same things.
And so I think that if somebody is listening and they're struggling with something,
(34:39):
that they can reach out to you and really, maybe it's just prompting a question
that might bring about some change in their lives.
One of the big things that was told to me early in recovery when I went in there,
he said, keep coming back.
We'll love you until you can learn to love yourself. self
yeah and i did not
(35:00):
understand the whole concept of it but they said keep coming
back it works if you work it so i
just kept coming back and then um i had uh well i guess he was like a mentor
he said he goes ellie you know you can't get this program by asmosis you can't
just come into the program sit on your ass and hear listen to everybody talk
(35:21):
right you got to take the action that's behind it.
And that requires the willingness and it requires acceptance to keep moving forward.
If you have somebody listening who's like they just
don't feel motivated or feel like they have the willingness
you know i mean like you mentioned it while going
you're talking about your dog and taking them out i think
(35:42):
that you know it's classic what we would call what
the medical people would call depression right you
know what if they're in that dark place and they're just struggling with the
willingness what would your advice be to somebody like that because you've been
there i've been there that's exactly why i want to do the podcast and that's
why i want to keep doing this because sometimes people are scared to ask for
(36:04):
help, but it's easy for them to turn on the radio.
And then, um, it's like in the program, it says that, um, we're a bunch of men
and women that are like people that normally would not mix.
And then unless we've met each other in AA or in that program,
that's the only way we, we'd get together.
Um, so I think by listening to like a program, by listening to the commonality,
(36:28):
like we all have the same, we all have the same, problem.
And we all were looking for the same solution, some kind of mind-altering chemical.
And so we're all the same. So please don't be scared to reach out.
Go to a meeting, go to church, just talk to somebody.
(36:48):
Once we do that, it's such a freeing experience and the ability to actually love who I am today.
Like, look, when I go into the bathroom and I go in there, wash my face,
brush my teeth, I can actually look at the man in the mirror and say,
I love who I am today, or I appreciate who that guy is today.
(37:09):
But if I keep focusing on me, I won't even go into the bathroom.
I won't even look at the mirror. I won't even know that I exist.
So, but now I feel comfortable enough to walk into the bathroom and see myself.
Well, look at myself in the mirror to realize that I am here and I am present.
(37:30):
And then Dr. No, I'm sorry. Bill Wilson talks about it. And he talks about being
rocketed into the fourth dimension of existence.
And you think like dimension, you think like the three, the height,
the width, length and the width.
OK, height, width, length. And so what's the fourth dimension?
Well, the fourth dimension is time. and it's
(37:52):
the ability to say i'm here right
now i'm i'm here i'm not nowhere
else but i'm here and that's that's what i that and
that's what the serenity and that's what's what the peace and the courage that
we get in the program it gives us later on in life it gives us or gives us later
on it gives us that serenity and we want to help people instead of asking for
(38:14):
help we want to help people because in the in the program it says that we have
to to keep it we We have to give it away.
Think you brought it i mean we mentioned that we both mentioned this
like man it's nice to be able to find somebody you can
talk to and that has been where you've been yeah and
i think that if you had to break it down to the lowest common
(38:35):
denominator except man we all struggle and
we can help each other just and you know
that is it's not selling something
it's offering something right which is free but
yet it's such a big one to go from you
know where you're at sometimes to that because you're
just it's almost also like we don't trust people because
(38:57):
we're afraid they're going to want something in return and really
these programs are not based on what you what you have to pay for that's our
oh that's our old person that's what we old way of thinking yeah it's not it's
about it's really you know it's like we talked about the paradigm shift it's
like you You start out needing, you need help.
(39:18):
And then, you know, eventually, and think about it.
If that program really works, then it should convert from, hey,
I've been helped. Now I'm going to help other people.
And I think that that's what you're seeing in, you know, we're seeing in your
life is that you went from, I went from the self-pity situation.
Yeah. I definitely was dealing with self-pity. Yeah. And now to be able to convert
(39:40):
that to I'm going to help other people.
Yeah. That's definitely, you know, that comes from God.
And I think the powerfulness of the program.
I also wanted to say this, too, and I wanted to say it earlier.
When I was in the hospital after my MS, after I was laying in there for two
months, and I remember it was the chaplain of the hospital.
(40:03):
He walks in there and he asked me how I was doing that day. And I said, I'm not doing very good.
And he goes, well, he goes, Elliot.
And he goes, I can see you look like a very happy guy. It looks like he could
be a really happy guy, but there's something that's holding you down.
And it's this MS diagnosis.
He goes, Elliot, he goes, you have MS, but MS doesn't have you.
(40:28):
And I'm like, oh, that's good. That's good.
Then I heard a guy a couple of months ago, he's talking about,
he goes, he goes, I'm on antidepressants, but I'm not a depressed person.
I'm not depressed all the time. I battle with depression.
So it's like, I'm not a depressed person, but I battle with depression.
(40:50):
So, um, like you could say, um.
Like, my name is Elliot. I battle with alcoholism.
I mean, just by changing, just changing the words, it's just easier.
There's different coping mechanisms through everything. Well,
I think what you're talking about, I also, I call it like an identity.
(41:12):
It's easy to identify yourself as a depressed person.
It's easy to identify yourself as an alcoholic.
It's usually identity. But those aren't true identity.
In it no you know yes you struggle with those things and i
think that's one of the things that people have problems with with
like i'll call it synonymous and is that they don't
they don't love the idea of like always um
(41:35):
being labeled they don't understand
their stroke yeah you know what i mean you're not you're not
all the time labeled as that though yeah i mean yeah and
so but part of the understanding i mean really the
idea behind it is is that it shows this you're
intended on one thing you need to be dependent on another right
and it's really the identity of that dependency
(41:57):
and so once you identify
that hey i'm depending on the
right thing then the other thing that you've been dependent on that really becomes
not so important you know but it is an identity thing i mean really if everything
if if you only identify yourself as a person as ms then that That looks like a bleak future.
(42:21):
It's very limited, yeah. But if you identify yourself as a child of God who
has literally been brought to this earth to maybe spread this message that we're
talking about, then that changes really the identity of who you are.
But sometimes we can't see that through what our current identity is.
And maybe that identity has been in our life for 30 years.
And that's where it becomes very difficult to break that habit of,
(42:45):
this is where I look as I look at myself. So good stuff.
Yeah. Well, brother, I'm looking forward to the idea of us doing another podcast together.
And just, you know, we talked about, you know, maybe having kind of a group
session and the discussion.
And I think people really enjoy that. So, you know, you let me know how I can help.
(43:05):
And we'd love to be a part of that.
For you guys listening, you know, go to our website, evenoneless.com.
And, you know, that's a way you connect with us. there's
all kinds of resources on there and also
you have Ellie's number now and if you feel.
Music.
Like something you said brought a question or
(43:26):
you would like to know what he's talking about
of course reach out to him and thank you guys for listening and hope you have
a great day and I just want to say one other thing too my number is 785-201-2200
if you have a question and you don't really feel like talking, text me.
(43:48):
Text me the question and I'll answer that that way. I can do that too.
Music.
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