July 21, 2025 • 31 mins
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Crushing churn in the classroom? It starts with embracing AI. Rob Alvarez is joined by Dr. Matt Metzger to explore how AI can revamp higher education—boosting motivation, retention, and engagement while staying human-centered. No tech expertise required, just a willingness to rethink learning.
Dr. Matthew R. Metzgar, PhD, is a Clinical Professor of Economics at UNC Charlotte’s Belk College of Business and an award-winning teacher who develops and delivers undergraduate and MBA courses focused on real-world applications and innovative pedagogy. He is the author of a new book, "The Overnight AI Educator: Transform Your Course in 24 Hours". His research spans the effectiveness of teaching methods and the economics of obesity, and as a Gambrell Faculty Fellow he is leading a study on employee ownership’s impact on the racial wealth gap in the Charlotte region. He co-chairs the Heterodox Academy Campus Community, facilitates the Constructive Dialogue Faculty Learning Community, and has been interviewed on labor-market shortages at both local and national levels. Dr. Metzgar earned his PhD from the University of Tennessee, an MBA from Wheeling Jesuit University, and a BS from West Virginia University.
Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He's also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.
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Guest Links and Info
- Website: overnight.education
- LinkedIn: Matt Metzgar
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
classes that are not using AI at all and are sticking with kind of the older methods, thelevel of engagement is dropping rapidly.
Hey, and this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games,gamification and game thinking and some associated areas as you will see today who help us
to multiply retention and engagement.
(00:23):
I'm Rob Alvarez.
I'm a consultant, I'm a coach and I'm the founder of Professor Game and I'm also aprofessor of gamification and game based solutions at IE Business School, EFMD, EBS
University and many other places around the world.
And before we dive directly into the interview with Matt.
If you're struggling with retention and churn in your business and are looking for ways tofind out how to make them stick for the long run, you will find our free resources very
(00:52):
useful.
So go to the description, click on the link and get them right now.
Yes, Engagers, we have Matt, the overnight AI educator with us today.
So Matthew, Matt, however you want us to call you, are you prepared to engage?
That's fine and I'm ready.
I'm ready to go.
uh
do this.
Today we have Matt Metzger.
(01:12):
He's Dr.
Matt Metzger, PhD, a clinical professor of economics at UNC Charlotte's Bell College ofBusiness and an award winning teacher who develops and delivers undergraduate and MBA
courses focused on real world applications and innovative pedagogy.
He's the author of a new book, The Overnight AI Educator, Transform Your Course in 24Hours, bold and amazing promise by the way.
(01:35):
His research spans
the effectiveness of teaching methods and the economics of obesity.
And as a Gambrel faculty fellow, he is leading study on employee ownership's impact on theracial wealth gap in the Charlotte region.
He co-chairs the Teradox Academy campus community, facilitates the constructive dialoguefaculty learning community, and has been interviewed in labor market shortages at both
(01:57):
local and national levels.
He earned his PhD from the University of Tennessee and an MBA from Wheeling Jesuit.
G-SWIT, I know how to say in Spanish but I'm not sure in English now that I read this.
And he has a BS from West Virginia University.
Matt, is there anything that we're missing that we should know before we dive right intoall those amazing experiences you have?
(02:21):
Well, thanks for the opportunity to be on here.
I'm very happy and excited to share what I've learned here.
Amazing.
So, Engagers, as you probably have realized, we have had, you know, we've started to dripmore and more into AI lately.
I've done things myself.
I've had guests who have done a couple of things here and there.
But I, as far as I can remember, at least we haven't had somebody like fully focused on AIbefore, right?
(02:46):
So, classroom economist turned AI educator, right?
That's a way that we can maybe phrase a bit, like in a few words, while your journey.
has been to this point.
So the big thing and one of things that attracted me very, very quickly was that thathook, that bold promise that you have, like, what would you do if you could redesign your
course syllabus assessment in just 24 hours using AI?
(03:10):
That's amazing, right?
So the first thing is, Matt, how did you even come to something as bold as, you know,completely shifting a course in 24 hours, which I know nobody does 24 hour a day usually.
So let's say you do it over
Three working days, eight hours a day, that still works and is amazing, right?
So I don't know, like how does that even get to start?
(03:32):
You know, AI has really shifted almost all aspects of what I'm doing teaching wise andmany other professors.
And some professors are maybe a little slow, kind of dragging their feet into this AIrevolution, if you want to call it.
And so part of it is I think they're overestimating how much they would have to do to kindof get their courses adapted to the current AI world.
(03:56):
And so, you know, I've been to conferences and presented on this and.
You know, lot of people say, it sounds like a lot of work and, I don't know if I want tochange.
I wanted to kind of develop a process where it can be, you know, quick and they can getresults fast to help them get some momentum going and kind of get into this new, you know,
era we're in with education.
(04:18):
And so, you know, if you say, well, this is going to take three or six months, a lot offaculty aren't interested.
Also the majority of faculty, if you look at statistics, are actually work a part time insome way.
They're part-time faculty.
so that's me, right.
And now you're teaching a night or adjunct or whenever.
And now, now they're asking you, by the way, integrate and your course.
(04:39):
Well, where am going to fit in that?
And so I'm trying to help the faculty make that transition quickly and give them someoptimism, some hope, because really with the tools, you can transform a course very
quickly.
The tools are great and they can really facilitate a fast process.
That makes 100 % sense and I can definitely relate to that as you know being myself thereI do have a couple of questions like when you talk about adapting it for the age of AI And
(05:06):
maybe you can say all of those things, but I would ask you What do you exactly mean?
Like does that mean you are because that that's one of the tendencies you're Proofing yourclasses against AI cheating right that that's one big topic We tend to have like what's up
with cheating nowadays, or is it how do you use AI so that students, you know?
Now with this whole AI, they're able to use AI tools into your course or I don't know,something else, a mix of these.
(05:30):
Like what does it actually look like?
If you were to describe what does those methods get you for as an educator, what does thatactually?
Yeah, and I think one of the issues is that if faculty try to do this a little bitpiecemeal, like add in this part of AI and this part of AI without thinking through it and
going through kind of a clear process, you end up with like a little bit of a Frankensteinsituation.
(05:53):
Like you could say, well, I could, as a professor, I can use AI to generate some, sometests, right?
Some multiple choice questions and give that to my students.
Okay.
You can, but you know,
Are the students allowed to use AI to answer those questions?
If so, they can answer them in 10 seconds.
And if not, you're blocking them, your students from using AI, which is something they'regoing to need to do in the workplace.
(06:16):
And so again, in my mind, it's a whole uh redevelopment of the course as far as the wayyou're looking at it.
You should look at, what are the end results that we want for the students?
What sort of assessments lend themselves to that?
Then design what sort of learning experience is teaching and so on and so forth with that.
(06:36):
And then roll it out and see what feedback you get from the students, all that, and then,you know, make an improvement and then kind of next semester, next term, roll it out
again.
But it needs to be, I think, a thorough or comprehensive process that if you just drive alittle bit here and there, a little bit there, it's not going to get the results that
everyone wants.
Hmm.
So you're actually trying to make it as a whole rethink of how the course courses work,right?
(07:03):
It is, and I would say the linchpin a lot of professors get stuck on is the assessmentpart.
Because, you know, if you have bigger classes and you know, you're used to giving multiplechoice tests, either in person or online.
If you give them online now, that's totally gameable, you know, so to speak, you know,students can easily answer those questions.
(07:24):
And then if you give them in class in some sort of Scantron sheet or whatever, where theycan't use any resources, then it may be, you know,
You avoid the cheating, but now you're blocking them from using any realistic resourcesthat they're going to be using in the workplace.
And so without changing that piece, the other pieces don't make any sense, but that piecein my view has to change.
(07:45):
And it's not just because like, I think so it's really what's the employers are demanding.
You know, we had our board of advisors come in and this is, all leaders from big companiesin Charlotte.
And so I asked, no, are you guys using AI?
you want.
our graduates to be able to use AI.
And they said a hundred percent.
Yes.
Every company said, yes, we're using it.
(08:06):
We want students to be exposed to it as undergrad.
want them to know how to use it in the right way, not just for cheating or copy andpasting questions, but to use it as a tool to increase productivity, right?
To create in my case, business results.
So that's what's being demanded in the workplace.
So it's not just like a personal preference.
That's what companies are looking for.
(08:27):
And so we, as educators have to deliver that in the
terms of our curriculum we give to students.
Interesting.
in your experience, you know, in GIST, like what does assessment look like?
What does fundamentally changes in terms of assessments with AI or what are some bestpractices perhaps that you see in that sense?
(08:48):
It's, it's, it's, it's a big step because, you know, lot of the convenience of, you know,online test or multiple choice test or whatever have to be swapped out for some sort of
open ended task.
You know, because if it's any closed ended question and they can use AI tools, they canget that answer, whether it's, you know, come up with this number or a multiple choice,
(09:12):
whatever it's totally gone.
You then have to switch to open ended tasks, which.
then will require some level of manual grading.
And so that's where a lot of professors get stuck on.
But in my book, again, I talked about strategies to try to make that more manageable.
But as far as like examples, you know, I'm teaching right now in the summer.
(09:33):
uh And so one of my uh tasks was to come up for a new product for a uh fast foodrestaurant, right?
And so students would come up with this idea.
And then they survey some students, you know, other students, how much would you bewilling to pay for this new item?
And then they can create a demand curve from that.
(09:54):
And then maybe make a forecast about maybe how many items would sell.
And so it's a realistic task.
It's not just like, you know, if demand is this and the price is this, how much quantity,right?
Like a calculation question that AI can do.
It's like a real task that you may do in the workplace, you know, depending what sort ofjob you're
And so those the type of things I'm giving the students.
(10:16):
uh it's, it's, I've got a lot of good feedback too, because I feel like the students noware aware that those types of things they could potentially be doing in a workplace.
And some of these older closed form of assessments are not relevant anymore.
So I just have two questions.
(10:37):
They're very, very distinct from each other.
Like the first one is you mentioned earlier that, you know, you were running away from,know, what's the answer?
What's the number to this or out of these four options, which is the best one.
I completely get it.
Like, don't get me wrong.
I, we still have to use them every now and then when I'm teaching, but I completely getit.
The only doubt that comes up is the fact that the question is open ended does not meanthat students will not try to answer it with AI.
(11:04):
And.
at least as far as I've seen, and I've validated this in multiple occasions, but you mighthave a different answer with your expertise is there's no way to actually catch somebody
just copy pasting AI, right?
There's no way.
And there's even AI to humanize text and make intentional mistakes.
(11:24):
there's literally stuff to do that.
The, the only problem it brings up to me is you do that and trust a bit more that they'llbe thinking.
And the problem is they're not, which, which is, as you were saying before, for me, it'sabout them thinking and doing the tasks they were realistically be doing in, in the, in
the work that does not exclude, you know, sort of open ended questions does not reallyexclude them trying to game the system that way.
(11:49):
So, so that's one thing.
Um, and the other one is just, uh, this is just going to be a curiosity, I think for youis I recently interviewed Amy Jo Kim.
And one of the things that she's developed a software for using AI is to create syntheticpersonas.
So you're basically creating a bot to behave.
To behave like a, person you're targeting in the market.
(12:10):
Of course she stressed and I completely agree that this is not substitute entirely a userresearch.
You still have to eventually talk to the right people and so on.
But it does give you an advantage.
You know, the interviews can be more meaningful.
You can know more things when you get to the interview and have better hypothesis and soon.
But then you can even use these personas as well.
You have to go and do user research.
(12:30):
I go, I create a persona with AI, which is already a lot of work, but that's stillsomething that can happen.
But again, that's just a curiosity.
I don't know.
What are your thoughts and your reactions to these two, these two things?
Yeah, I mean, well, one, definitely encourage my students to use AI in these tasks becauseagain, that's what I'm trying to do.
But as far as the cheating and all that, definitely there's no way to tell for sure ifthey've used AI, but you'd be surprised a lot of times if they're using AI or whatever,
(12:59):
there's still, well, let me say it this way, a complete product, at least in business,usually some, you know, like a person kind of has to, you know,
look through it and make sure it's all accurate before they would like put it out.
Like if AI wrote a blog post for you before you just hit publish, right?
You would look through it and make sure it made sense and all that sort of stuff.
So if they want to use it as a, you know, thinking partner and get ideas going, that'sokay.
(13:23):
But they're, they still have that role of making sure it actually makes sense.
And so I'll give you an example.
Like in that survey example I gave you, some students would submit a demand curve thatslopes up in their graph.
When the main curves in economics always slowed down, know, as price goes down, quantitygives up.
And so it just doesn't make any sense.
And so like, if you presented that in a business world, you would look foolish because hesaid, well, that doesn't, it's not true.
(13:49):
It's not even possible.
And so whether they used AI or didn't is still testing their knowledge to evaluate.
Right.
Whether the, that, that product they're putting forth is still true.
The other thing I say too, is that, you know,
Jobs like a say a job for like a pricing analyst.
You know, it's like AI hasn't eliminated that job.
(14:11):
You know, I looked just this week, there's still those jobs out there.
Now you may use AI tools, but if you're hired as a pricing analyst, you know, yourreputation, your judgment is going to be what's really being evaluated, whether you use
these tools or didn't tools, whatever, as long as you produce good results for thecompany, however you became by them, right.
Um, is really what's going to be your.
(14:33):
the ultimate decision about whether you're doing well for that company or not.
And so I think the judgment part is really the key in these tasks to make sure it allmakes sense.
It's logical, it's put together and so on and so forth.
And also say real quick that a task I gave last semester, uh I created one about Facebookand like a kind of a competition scenario and stuff like that.
(15:01):
And I ran it through
chat GPT myself to see, what would chat GPT do with this assignment?
And so I had that no student group submitted that the exact output from chat GPT in thattask.
So even though they could have, nobody did.
And again, I think it's because they feel there's some value in that task.
(15:23):
And so it's like, in my case, they're, short to that.
Let's just give it a try.
You know, I mean, you know, I'd like to try this and see if I can do it.
rather than just, if it's a useless task, then just roll it through chat GPT and paste theanswer in there.
So I was kind of surprised by that, because I was like, well, let's see, let's see whatchat GPT would answer, and then look through my student answers, and none of them were the
(15:43):
same as that chat GPT.
Oh, well, yeah.
mean, I agree.
I mean, Chagy BD can answer with the exact same context, can answer different things atthe same time.
I mean, it's like a human, it's not exactly predictable.
Like it's not an algorithm like other, like in the past, that's one of the things that waschanged totally in the products in the AI world.
But anyways, I love that.
(16:04):
Like I love the perspective of actually getting them to do things that are useful.
No matter if it's AI or not, that places the onus on us as educators to see how
we can place a task that quote unquote forces them into thinking, but then also AI ismoving very, very fast.
So it is an interesting thing to keep up to as educators for sure.
(16:26):
Very quickly.
know you have, I think it's a five step framework.
Is that right?
Can you run us through what those steps are and how does it look for someone who's nottechie, so to speak?
Sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I try to, you know, make the cycle knowing that these tools, like you said, arechanging so rapidly.
So I didn't try to tie it to, you have to use this tool for that and this tool for that.
(16:49):
And so it's more of getting just like a cycle someone could run after, you know, everysemester term.
But the first step is really trying to look at, as I mentioned, what's, what are thecurrent skills in demand for the workforce or in the organization, society, however, you
know, whatever kind of your program's leading to.
But what actually skills are out there?
(17:10):
so like you can, for my case, I can go to chat GPT and put, you know, someone graduateswith a BS in economics, scan the current job ads and pull out, you know, the, top, you
know, seven or eight skills that are in demand right now, the companies that are hiringtoday, what are they looking for?
And so all this is give credit to Grant Wiggins.
(17:30):
It's the concept of a backwards design.
And so you're, he had a book understanding by design.
I was a big fan of his work.
It's starting to start with the end goal in mind.
And so for my case, I'm trying to help students become business professionals.
So that's the end goal for them is to graduate and work in that business world.
So I say, okay, well, what's the business world looking for?
(17:51):
What skills do you need?
if you're an econ major, finance major, whatever.
So you start with those job skills and that's the first step.
And then the second step is now let's build assessment tasks.
that would help you build skills for those specific, you know, job functions.
And so again, if you're going to be hired as a pricing analyst, one of the things isyou're going to have to forecast, you know, what, how many units we're going to need to
(18:16):
this next month.
Okay.
Well, now I can build a task like that, you know, where you try to forecast inventorylevels or sales or whatever it is.
So first step is the current job skills or societal skills.
Uh, I'm going to think of it.
The second is building those tasks.
And then the third piece is now let's build those learner experiences, resources, andeverything else to help students learn how to do that.
(18:43):
Right.
Obviously classroom instruction is a big part of it, but AI is now making these tools somuch easier.
Like you talked about digital, you know, avatar, so to speak, but you can have, uh, youcan create like a digital twin of yourself to lecture now.
I don't know if you heard of this, it's a, Hey Jen, H-E-Y-G-E-N.com.
(19:06):
Like you can, it can record snippets of video and then you just upload like a script inWord.
And now it'll make a video of you saying that script without you having to say it.
And something even cooler is that it can actually translate and have you speak indifferent languages.
So I could upload a script to me talking about pricing.
(19:28):
and have it translate to Spanish for me.
And there's a video of me now speaking about this topic in Spanish and I didn't do any ofit.
I just uploaded the script and some video.
so AI can create so many resources, whether it's video, audio podcast, Google has audiooverviews.
can create a podcast of people talking about that topic.
It's all AI generated.
(19:49):
So, know, videos, notes, diagrams, whatever you want, right?
AI can rapidly cut the...
the time needed to develop those resources.
So that's the third step.
And then the fourth step is try to figure out what sort of feedback you can give.
And so like we were talking, if we have big classes, so how do you grade all thoseopen-ended assignments?
(20:13):
And so you have to think about how often can you give feedback?
Because sometimes if you give feedback earlier in the process, so to speak, it can reducethe amount of grading later on because like,
If a bunch of groups are making a mistake, you can then beam this out.
Hey, don't do this.
So that when it's submitted, I don't have to fix that mistake 30 times or whatever it is.
(20:34):
So you got to think about your feedback strategy, trying to be efficient with it.
Cause no one has unlimited time and energy to give feedback all the time to all students.
It would be great if we could, but there's just constraints you have to think about.
Um, and so in my book, one of the things I talk about is trying to develop simplified.
rubrics, and I mean very simplified rubrics, as far as almost like checklists for arethese pieces here, yes or no.
(20:59):
So if you have hundreds of students like I do, ah even if they work in groups, it's stillbig numbers, but you can get a simplified rubric that can really cut down the workload.
And so that's step four.
And then the fifth step is just to survey your students, you know, look at
evaluations, get feedback, ask questions, and just kind of like an adaptive cycle.
(21:21):
You want to next time iterate and make any improvements you can.
What can you fix for next time?
But I mean, going through this cycle just once can take a course that hasn't been updatedin 20 years to, you know, it's current in good shape, using good tools quickly.
And then after that, the iteration cycles, the improvements will be potentially smaller.
It's more like small fixes.
(21:41):
sounds amazing.
talking about those fixes and what you've seen, those are the five steps to actually reachthis.
By following this or the people that you've helped doing this, like in your experience orother experienced people you've helped as well, have you seen any changes so far as the
engagement in those AI assisted course designs?
Are students more engaged in those classes?
(22:03):
Is it kind of the same?
Have you observed something in those terms?
Yes.
And I would say it's, actually the opposite is becoming even more apparent classes thatare not using AI at all.
And they're sticking with kind of the older methods.
The level of engagement is dropping rapidly.
Um, and so, you know, it's, it's almost like, you know, you can make it better and that'sgood, but if you don't, it's going to be really bad.
(22:31):
Now I was just talking with a professor, uh, a couple of weeks ago and he just said that,you know,
He kind of went with the old school model and he's like, engagement this semester was theworst ever.
know, he's just said students just totally checked out that they, know, again, they're,they're sensing this stuff's just not relevant.
It's not, you know, what's actually happening.
And then again, on the other side, I talked with probably 10 or 12 professors thissemester that, you know, they said the students are excited.
(22:55):
They want to learn, the students want to learn these tools, you know, in the right way.
mean, yeah, you could again, use it for cheating or whatever, but they know it's, it's,it's out there.
You look at workforce surveys, 80 % of employees are already using AI.
That's even an old figure.
It's probably higher than that.
So they know it's there, and they're using it themselves.
(23:17):
80 % of students already use AI.
And so it's all about just getting it up to the current standard, so to speak, aboutwhat's happening in the world.
Totally.
With your experience, know it's, I mean, this is all new, many things are changing,there's a lot of shifts.
By any chance have you seen anybody sort of these strategies that you talk about toperhaps turn the classroom into something a little bit more fun, more playful, more
(23:42):
interactive, more engaging?
And if so, what has that looked like?
Or maybe it's your own experience, something that you have done yourself.
Yeah.
And I know the gaming is a big element of the podcast and all that.
And I've done a little bit of that in the past.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself an expert or anything like that on that area.
But, I definitely think there's room for that for those, those game elements, you know, asfar as, know, leaderboards or competitions or things like that.
(24:09):
I mean, I think there's probably a ton of really good ideas out there.
you would have more than me on this as to, you know, what they could be and how they couldkind of be fused with AI.
But yeah, that's definitely an element for that age group.
You know, I mean, I remember even college football, you know, like a coach was saying,Hey, we got to make this fun.
(24:30):
You know, these are 18 to 22 year old kids.
can't be all business all the time.
And so definitely there's a role for that for sure.
Totally.
If I were to like, I know it's a five step process and you know, the way, and I know theway processes work in general.
I'm an operations professor, so I can't run away from processes in any way.
Right.
But is there, is there one thing that you could tell, you know, the, the audience, youknow, we're on the fence and say, like, look, try this thing.
(24:56):
And of course not, you know, disconnected or anything, but try this thing and see how itgoes.
Like, see how you feel, maybe how it helped you or whatever.
Is there, there a thing that they could do that, that at least probably helped them diptheir toes in this direction?
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, I just say, you the first step is just you could, you know, replace oneassignment you have a regular assignment with and just make it an AI assignment and just
(25:23):
try it, you know, even if you want to make a small portion of the overall course grade orsomething like that, you know, just say, okay, we're going to take this out and instead,
you know, put in a assignment where you can use AI and just see how it goes, you know, andthey can test see.
what sort of assignment they would have to design, you know, from a teacher standpoint.
(25:44):
And then that would force them to think about, okay, how am going to assess it?
And then just roll it out.
You know, I mean, like I was at a conference and someone did this in marketing and theyjust said, all right, now the final deliverable, you know, like a marketing campaign.
Now we just open it up and you can use whatever AI tools you want to help create, youknow, logos and graphics and the copy and everything else.
(26:08):
And so it totally transformed that assignment from just being something where they wouldjust write something and check the plagiarism to open ended thing where they could use all
these tools and create a way better product.
Now that's the ultimate goal from my thinking is that you're trying to make people moreproductive, add more value to those organizations.
And these tools are amazing.
(26:29):
They can help people, you know, workers become more productive, know, create more value.
so, you know, it ends up being a.
a win-win if you open up to that.
Absolutely.
And of course, this is sort of looking into the future and that, know, crystal ball kindof thing that I always say like, I can't look into the future when they ask these kind of
questions.
But, you know, maybe you have an answer.
(26:50):
Maybe you have a view on this.
Where do you see this going next?
You know, is it, you know, is it AI is going to replace or augment creativity in coursedesign and general creating, you know, some of the things that educators are great at
doing or at least were great at doing before this whole thing happened?
Definitely, definitely.
It's a great question.
And what I think really is happening very quickly is the professor used to be maybe moreof kind of like the dispenser of knowledge and the holder of knowledge.
(27:19):
And now all that knowledge is out there in AI.
And so what's interesting about these tasks I give is that, okay, I'll publish a task onMonday and I'll say over the next two weeks during lecture class, I'll show you how to do
it.
Well, by Tuesday, I'm getting emails saying, asking me about like step number seven.
I'm like, wait a minute.
haven't even said anything yet.
I've even had a clash yet on this, you know?
(27:41):
And so they're, just moving ahead.
Like they don't need professors, so to speak, in the same way to dispense that knowledge.
They can go right to chat GPT and have a conversation telling me about price elasticityback and forth.
Right.
And that the studies show it can be as effective or more than just a regular lecture.
And so.
It's really shifted the role of the professor from the dispenser of knowledge to actuallymore of an evaluator.
(28:06):
And that took me a little while to wrap my head around because again, I'm sure like you, Imean, I got into teaching because I liked being in the classroom and explaining things and
working with students.
But unfortunately, I think the demand for that's falling and will continue to fall in thefuture.
And now it's more on the other end where you're really just an evaluator.
And I was talking with actually an art professor about this and she said,
(28:28):
The main function they do for art school now is evaluation.
They said it's not really even teaching people how to draw or how to watercolor.
She's like, they can go on YouTube.
There's a million videos on how to watercolor.
And so for them, they can teach it, yeah, but they're just one of a million voices.
And they said the only reason for student to go to art school is to have their workcritiqued by an art professor, an actual human.
(28:56):
That's it.
That's the only reason to go because all the how to is out there.
And so it's the same with this, you know, explaining and all that it's already out there.
So I think it's really about the judgment piece, you know, you're trying to help studentssay, look, this is, you know, a good product, you know, that you've created that would
look good in a business, you know, or it's not, or has these weaknesses.
(29:21):
And so I'm just telling you that, you know, as someone who's
worked in business and understands the subject that, you know, this is kind of up to paror it's not.
But I really feel that's going to, that's what my role is shifting into.
And it'll be even more of that going forward.
And unfortunately, the teaching part I think is shrinking for better or for worse.
I had to grieve over that, but I'm just trying to be as honest as I can.
(29:46):
Totally.
So Matt, where can we learn more about you?
Tell us about your book, your site, wherever you want to guide us at this point.
Sure, yeah.
The website is overnight.education and the book is out on Amazon, The Overnight AIEducator, How College Faculty Can Transform Their Course in 24 Hours.
(30:06):
And yeah, I'm hoping to, you know, again, to work with any interested individuals or I'llprobably do some sort of webinar as the school year gets closer in August, you know, try
to spread the word.
But really just looking to help people make this transition because it's needed andthere's a lot of energy.
A lot of people see what's happening and they want to be part of this kind of wave andagain be in better positions to help students.
(30:33):
Absolutely, absolutely love that and Matt thank you very much for coming here for givingus, you know a significant portion of that that knowledge Spreading the word about what is
possible in your view with the overnight AI educator method However, Matt and Engagers asyou know at least for now and for today It is time to say that it's game over.
(30:54):
Hey Engagers and thank you for listening to the professor game
So I guess, and since you're interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement,loyalty, using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community
at Professor Game on School.
You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to clickthere, join us.
(31:17):
It's a platform called School.
It's for free and you will find plenty of resources there.
We'll be up to date with everything that we're doing, any opportunities that we might havefor you.
And of course, before you go into your next mission, before you click continue, pleaseremember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of
Professor Game.
See you there.
classes that are not using AI at all and are sticking with kind of the older methods, thelevel of engagement is dropping rapidly.
Hey, and this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games,gamification and game thinking and some associated areas as you will see today who help us
to multiply retention and engagement.
(00:23):
I'm Rob Alvarez.
I'm a consultant, I'm a coach and I'm the founder of Professor Game and I'm also aprofessor of gamification and game based solutions at IE Business School, EFMD, EBS
University and many other places around the world.
And before we dive directly into the interview with Matt.
If you're struggling with retention and churn in your business and are looking for ways tofind out how to make them stick for the long run, you will find our free resources very
(00:52):
useful.
So go to the description, click on the link and get them right now.
Yes, Engagers, we have Matt, the overnight AI educator with us today.
So Matthew, Matt, however you want us to call you, are you prepared to engage?
That's fine and I'm ready.
I'm ready to go.
uh
do this.
Today we have Matt Metzger.
(01:12):
He's Dr.
Matt Metzger, PhD, a clinical professor of economics at UNC Charlotte's Bell College ofBusiness and an award winning teacher who develops and delivers undergraduate and MBA
courses focused on real world applications and innovative pedagogy.
He's the author of a new book, The Overnight AI Educator, Transform Your Course in 24Hours, bold and amazing promise by the way.
(01:35):
His research spans
the effectiveness of teaching methods and the economics of obesity.
And as a Gambrel faculty fellow, he is leading study on employee ownership's impact on theracial wealth gap in the Charlotte region.
He co-chairs the Teradox Academy campus community, facilitates the constructive dialoguefaculty learning community, and has been interviewed in labor market shortages at both
(01:57):
local and national levels.
He earned his PhD from the University of Tennessee and an MBA from Wheeling Jesuit.
G-SWIT, I know how to say in Spanish but I'm not sure in English now that I read this.
And he has a BS from West Virginia University.
Matt, is there anything that we're missing that we should know before we dive right intoall those amazing experiences you have?
(02:21):
Well, thanks for the opportunity to be on here.
I'm very happy and excited to share what I've learned here.
Amazing.
So, Engagers, as you probably have realized, we have had, you know, we've started to dripmore and more into AI lately.
I've done things myself.
I've had guests who have done a couple of things here and there.
But I, as far as I can remember, at least we haven't had somebody like fully focused on AIbefore, right?
(02:46):
So, classroom economist turned AI educator, right?
That's a way that we can maybe phrase a bit, like in a few words, while your journey.
has been to this point.
So the big thing and one of things that attracted me very, very quickly was that thathook, that bold promise that you have, like, what would you do if you could redesign your
course syllabus assessment in just 24 hours using AI?
(03:10):
That's amazing, right?
So the first thing is, Matt, how did you even come to something as bold as, you know,completely shifting a course in 24 hours, which I know nobody does 24 hour a day usually.
So let's say you do it over
Three working days, eight hours a day, that still works and is amazing, right?
So I don't know, like how does that even get to start?
(03:32):
You know, AI has really shifted almost all aspects of what I'm doing teaching wise andmany other professors.
And some professors are maybe a little slow, kind of dragging their feet into this AIrevolution, if you want to call it.
And so part of it is I think they're overestimating how much they would have to do to kindof get their courses adapted to the current AI world.
(03:56):
And so, you know, I've been to conferences and presented on this and.
You know, lot of people say, it sounds like a lot of work and, I don't know if I want tochange.
I wanted to kind of develop a process where it can be, you know, quick and they can getresults fast to help them get some momentum going and kind of get into this new, you know,
era we're in with education.
(04:18):
And so, you know, if you say, well, this is going to take three or six months, a lot offaculty aren't interested.
Also the majority of faculty, if you look at statistics, are actually work a part time insome way.
They're part-time faculty.
so that's me, right.
And now you're teaching a night or adjunct or whenever.
And now, now they're asking you, by the way, integrate and your course.
(04:39):
Well, where am going to fit in that?
And so I'm trying to help the faculty make that transition quickly and give them someoptimism, some hope, because really with the tools, you can transform a course very
quickly.
The tools are great and they can really facilitate a fast process.
That makes 100 % sense and I can definitely relate to that as you know being myself thereI do have a couple of questions like when you talk about adapting it for the age of AI And
(05:06):
maybe you can say all of those things, but I would ask you What do you exactly mean?
Like does that mean you are because that that's one of the tendencies you're Proofing yourclasses against AI cheating right that that's one big topic We tend to have like what's up
with cheating nowadays, or is it how do you use AI so that students, you know?
Now with this whole AI, they're able to use AI tools into your course or I don't know,something else, a mix of these.
(05:30):
Like what does it actually look like?
If you were to describe what does those methods get you for as an educator, what does thatactually?
Yeah, and I think one of the issues is that if faculty try to do this a little bitpiecemeal, like add in this part of AI and this part of AI without thinking through it and
going through kind of a clear process, you end up with like a little bit of a Frankensteinsituation.
(05:53):
Like you could say, well, I could, as a professor, I can use AI to generate some, sometests, right?
Some multiple choice questions and give that to my students.
Okay.
You can, but you know,
Are the students allowed to use AI to answer those questions?
If so, they can answer them in 10 seconds.
And if not, you're blocking them, your students from using AI, which is something they'regoing to need to do in the workplace.
(06:16):
And so again, in my mind, it's a whole uh redevelopment of the course as far as the wayyou're looking at it.
You should look at, what are the end results that we want for the students?
What sort of assessments lend themselves to that?
Then design what sort of learning experience is teaching and so on and so forth with that.
(06:36):
And then roll it out and see what feedback you get from the students, all that, and then,you know, make an improvement and then kind of next semester, next term, roll it out
again.
But it needs to be, I think, a thorough or comprehensive process that if you just drive alittle bit here and there, a little bit there, it's not going to get the results that
everyone wants.
Hmm.
So you're actually trying to make it as a whole rethink of how the course courses work,right?
(07:03):
It is, and I would say the linchpin a lot of professors get stuck on is the assessmentpart.
Because, you know, if you have bigger classes and you know, you're used to giving multiplechoice tests, either in person or online.
If you give them online now, that's totally gameable, you know, so to speak, you know,students can easily answer those questions.
(07:24):
And then if you give them in class in some sort of Scantron sheet or whatever, where theycan't use any resources, then it may be, you know,
You avoid the cheating, but now you're blocking them from using any realistic resourcesthat they're going to be using in the workplace.
And so without changing that piece, the other pieces don't make any sense, but that piecein my view has to change.
(07:45):
And it's not just because like, I think so it's really what's the employers are demanding.
You know, we had our board of advisors come in and this is, all leaders from big companiesin Charlotte.
And so I asked, no, are you guys using AI?
you want.
our graduates to be able to use AI.
And they said a hundred percent.
Yes.
Every company said, yes, we're using it.
(08:06):
We want students to be exposed to it as undergrad.
want them to know how to use it in the right way, not just for cheating or copy andpasting questions, but to use it as a tool to increase productivity, right?
To create in my case, business results.
So that's what's being demanded in the workplace.
So it's not just like a personal preference.
That's what companies are looking for.
(08:27):
And so we, as educators have to deliver that in the
terms of our curriculum we give to students.
Interesting.
in your experience, you know, in GIST, like what does assessment look like?
What does fundamentally changes in terms of assessments with AI or what are some bestpractices perhaps that you see in that sense?
(08:48):
It's, it's, it's, it's a big step because, you know, lot of the convenience of, you know,online test or multiple choice test or whatever have to be swapped out for some sort of
open ended task.
You know, because if it's any closed ended question and they can use AI tools, they canget that answer, whether it's, you know, come up with this number or a multiple choice,
(09:12):
whatever it's totally gone.
You then have to switch to open ended tasks, which.
then will require some level of manual grading.
And so that's where a lot of professors get stuck on.
But in my book, again, I talked about strategies to try to make that more manageable.
But as far as like examples, you know, I'm teaching right now in the summer.
(09:33):
uh And so one of my uh tasks was to come up for a new product for a uh fast foodrestaurant, right?
And so students would come up with this idea.
And then they survey some students, you know, other students, how much would you bewilling to pay for this new item?
And then they can create a demand curve from that.
(09:54):
And then maybe make a forecast about maybe how many items would sell.
And so it's a realistic task.
It's not just like, you know, if demand is this and the price is this, how much quantity,right?
Like a calculation question that AI can do.
It's like a real task that you may do in the workplace, you know, depending what sort ofjob you're
And so those the type of things I'm giving the students.
(10:16):
uh it's, it's, I've got a lot of good feedback too, because I feel like the students noware aware that those types of things they could potentially be doing in a workplace.
And some of these older closed form of assessments are not relevant anymore.
So I just have two questions.
(10:37):
They're very, very distinct from each other.
Like the first one is you mentioned earlier that, you know, you were running away from,know, what's the answer?
What's the number to this or out of these four options, which is the best one.
I completely get it.
Like, don't get me wrong.
I, we still have to use them every now and then when I'm teaching, but I completely getit.
The only doubt that comes up is the fact that the question is open ended does not meanthat students will not try to answer it with AI.
(11:04):
And.
at least as far as I've seen, and I've validated this in multiple occasions, but you mighthave a different answer with your expertise is there's no way to actually catch somebody
just copy pasting AI, right?
There's no way.
And there's even AI to humanize text and make intentional mistakes.
(11:24):
there's literally stuff to do that.
The, the only problem it brings up to me is you do that and trust a bit more that they'llbe thinking.
And the problem is they're not, which, which is, as you were saying before, for me, it'sabout them thinking and doing the tasks they were realistically be doing in, in the, in
the work that does not exclude, you know, sort of open ended questions does not reallyexclude them trying to game the system that way.
(11:49):
So, so that's one thing.
Um, and the other one is just, uh, this is just going to be a curiosity, I think for youis I recently interviewed Amy Jo Kim.
And one of the things that she's developed a software for using AI is to create syntheticpersonas.
So you're basically creating a bot to behave.
To behave like a, person you're targeting in the market.
(12:10):
Of course she stressed and I completely agree that this is not substitute entirely a userresearch.
You still have to eventually talk to the right people and so on.
But it does give you an advantage.
You know, the interviews can be more meaningful.
You can know more things when you get to the interview and have better hypothesis and soon.
But then you can even use these personas as well.
You have to go and do user research.
(12:30):
I go, I create a persona with AI, which is already a lot of work, but that's stillsomething that can happen.
But again, that's just a curiosity.
I don't know.
What are your thoughts and your reactions to these two, these two things?
Yeah, I mean, well, one, definitely encourage my students to use AI in these tasks becauseagain, that's what I'm trying to do.
But as far as the cheating and all that, definitely there's no way to tell for sure ifthey've used AI, but you'd be surprised a lot of times if they're using AI or whatever,
(12:59):
there's still, well, let me say it this way, a complete product, at least in business,usually some, you know, like a person kind of has to, you know,
look through it and make sure it's all accurate before they would like put it out.
Like if AI wrote a blog post for you before you just hit publish, right?
You would look through it and make sure it made sense and all that sort of stuff.
So if they want to use it as a, you know, thinking partner and get ideas going, that'sokay.
(13:23):
But they're, they still have that role of making sure it actually makes sense.
And so I'll give you an example.
Like in that survey example I gave you, some students would submit a demand curve thatslopes up in their graph.
When the main curves in economics always slowed down, know, as price goes down, quantitygives up.
And so it just doesn't make any sense.
And so like, if you presented that in a business world, you would look foolish because hesaid, well, that doesn't, it's not true.
(13:49):
It's not even possible.
And so whether they used AI or didn't is still testing their knowledge to evaluate.
Right.
Whether the, that, that product they're putting forth is still true.
The other thing I say too, is that, you know,
Jobs like a say a job for like a pricing analyst.
You know, it's like AI hasn't eliminated that job.
(14:11):
You know, I looked just this week, there's still those jobs out there.
Now you may use AI tools, but if you're hired as a pricing analyst, you know, yourreputation, your judgment is going to be what's really being evaluated, whether you use
these tools or didn't tools, whatever, as long as you produce good results for thecompany, however you became by them, right.
Um, is really what's going to be your.
(14:33):
the ultimate decision about whether you're doing well for that company or not.
And so I think the judgment part is really the key in these tasks to make sure it allmakes sense.
It's logical, it's put together and so on and so forth.
And also say real quick that a task I gave last semester, uh I created one about Facebookand like a kind of a competition scenario and stuff like that.
(15:01):
And I ran it through
chat GPT myself to see, what would chat GPT do with this assignment?
And so I had that no student group submitted that the exact output from chat GPT in thattask.
So even though they could have, nobody did.
And again, I think it's because they feel there's some value in that task.
(15:23):
And so it's like, in my case, they're, short to that.
Let's just give it a try.
You know, I mean, you know, I'd like to try this and see if I can do it.
rather than just, if it's a useless task, then just roll it through chat GPT and paste theanswer in there.
So I was kind of surprised by that, because I was like, well, let's see, let's see whatchat GPT would answer, and then look through my student answers, and none of them were the
(15:43):
same as that chat GPT.
Oh, well, yeah.
mean, I agree.
I mean, Chagy BD can answer with the exact same context, can answer different things atthe same time.
I mean, it's like a human, it's not exactly predictable.
Like it's not an algorithm like other, like in the past, that's one of the things that waschanged totally in the products in the AI world.
But anyways, I love that.
(16:04):
Like I love the perspective of actually getting them to do things that are useful.
No matter if it's AI or not, that places the onus on us as educators to see how
we can place a task that quote unquote forces them into thinking, but then also AI ismoving very, very fast.
So it is an interesting thing to keep up to as educators for sure.
(16:26):
Very quickly.
know you have, I think it's a five step framework.
Is that right?
Can you run us through what those steps are and how does it look for someone who's nottechie, so to speak?
Sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I try to, you know, make the cycle knowing that these tools, like you said, arechanging so rapidly.
So I didn't try to tie it to, you have to use this tool for that and this tool for that.
(16:49):
And so it's more of getting just like a cycle someone could run after, you know, everysemester term.
But the first step is really trying to look at, as I mentioned, what's, what are thecurrent skills in demand for the workforce or in the organization, society, however, you
know, whatever kind of your program's leading to.
But what actually skills are out there?
(17:10):
so like you can, for my case, I can go to chat GPT and put, you know, someone graduateswith a BS in economics, scan the current job ads and pull out, you know, the, top, you
know, seven or eight skills that are in demand right now, the companies that are hiringtoday, what are they looking for?
And so all this is give credit to Grant Wiggins.
(17:30):
It's the concept of a backwards design.
And so you're, he had a book understanding by design.
I was a big fan of his work.
It's starting to start with the end goal in mind.
And so for my case, I'm trying to help students become business professionals.
So that's the end goal for them is to graduate and work in that business world.
So I say, okay, well, what's the business world looking for?
(17:51):
What skills do you need?
if you're an econ major, finance major, whatever.
So you start with those job skills and that's the first step.
And then the second step is now let's build assessment tasks.
that would help you build skills for those specific, you know, job functions.
And so again, if you're going to be hired as a pricing analyst, one of the things isyou're going to have to forecast, you know, what, how many units we're going to need to
(18:16):
this next month.
Okay.
Well, now I can build a task like that, you know, where you try to forecast inventorylevels or sales or whatever it is.
So first step is the current job skills or societal skills.
Uh, I'm going to think of it.
The second is building those tasks.
And then the third piece is now let's build those learner experiences, resources, andeverything else to help students learn how to do that.
(18:43):
Right.
Obviously classroom instruction is a big part of it, but AI is now making these tools somuch easier.
Like you talked about digital, you know, avatar, so to speak, but you can have, uh, youcan create like a digital twin of yourself to lecture now.
I don't know if you heard of this, it's a, Hey Jen, H-E-Y-G-E-N.com.
(19:06):
Like you can, it can record snippets of video and then you just upload like a script inWord.
And now it'll make a video of you saying that script without you having to say it.
And something even cooler is that it can actually translate and have you speak indifferent languages.
So I could upload a script to me talking about pricing.
(19:28):
and have it translate to Spanish for me.
And there's a video of me now speaking about this topic in Spanish and I didn't do any ofit.
I just uploaded the script and some video.
so AI can create so many resources, whether it's video, audio podcast, Google has audiooverviews.
can create a podcast of people talking about that topic.
It's all AI generated.
(19:49):
So, know, videos, notes, diagrams, whatever you want, right?
AI can rapidly cut the...
the time needed to develop those resources.
So that's the third step.
And then the fourth step is try to figure out what sort of feedback you can give.
And so like we were talking, if we have big classes, so how do you grade all thoseopen-ended assignments?
(20:13):
And so you have to think about how often can you give feedback?
Because sometimes if you give feedback earlier in the process, so to speak, it can reducethe amount of grading later on because like,
If a bunch of groups are making a mistake, you can then beam this out.
Hey, don't do this.
So that when it's submitted, I don't have to fix that mistake 30 times or whatever it is.
(20:34):
So you got to think about your feedback strategy, trying to be efficient with it.
Cause no one has unlimited time and energy to give feedback all the time to all students.
It would be great if we could, but there's just constraints you have to think about.
Um, and so in my book, one of the things I talk about is trying to develop simplified.
rubrics, and I mean very simplified rubrics, as far as almost like checklists for arethese pieces here, yes or no.
(20:59):
So if you have hundreds of students like I do, ah even if they work in groups, it's stillbig numbers, but you can get a simplified rubric that can really cut down the workload.
And so that's step four.
And then the fifth step is just to survey your students, you know, look at
evaluations, get feedback, ask questions, and just kind of like an adaptive cycle.
(21:21):
You want to next time iterate and make any improvements you can.
What can you fix for next time?
But I mean, going through this cycle just once can take a course that hasn't been updatedin 20 years to, you know, it's current in good shape, using good tools quickly.
And then after that, the iteration cycles, the improvements will be potentially smaller.
It's more like small fixes.
(21:41):
sounds amazing.
talking about those fixes and what you've seen, those are the five steps to actually reachthis.
By following this or the people that you've helped doing this, like in your experience orother experienced people you've helped as well, have you seen any changes so far as the
engagement in those AI assisted course designs?
Are students more engaged in those classes?
(22:03):
Is it kind of the same?
Have you observed something in those terms?
Yes.
And I would say it's, actually the opposite is becoming even more apparent classes thatare not using AI at all.
And they're sticking with kind of the older methods.
The level of engagement is dropping rapidly.
Um, and so, you know, it's, it's almost like, you know, you can make it better and that'sgood, but if you don't, it's going to be really bad.
(22:31):
Now I was just talking with a professor, uh, a couple of weeks ago and he just said that,you know,
He kind of went with the old school model and he's like, engagement this semester was theworst ever.
know, he's just said students just totally checked out that they, know, again, they're,they're sensing this stuff's just not relevant.
It's not, you know, what's actually happening.
And then again, on the other side, I talked with probably 10 or 12 professors thissemester that, you know, they said the students are excited.
(22:55):
They want to learn, the students want to learn these tools, you know, in the right way.
mean, yeah, you could again, use it for cheating or whatever, but they know it's, it's,it's out there.
You look at workforce surveys, 80 % of employees are already using AI.
That's even an old figure.
It's probably higher than that.
So they know it's there, and they're using it themselves.
(23:17):
80 % of students already use AI.
And so it's all about just getting it up to the current standard, so to speak, aboutwhat's happening in the world.
Totally.
With your experience, know it's, I mean, this is all new, many things are changing,there's a lot of shifts.
By any chance have you seen anybody sort of these strategies that you talk about toperhaps turn the classroom into something a little bit more fun, more playful, more
(23:42):
interactive, more engaging?
And if so, what has that looked like?
Or maybe it's your own experience, something that you have done yourself.
Yeah.
And I know the gaming is a big element of the podcast and all that.
And I've done a little bit of that in the past.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself an expert or anything like that on that area.
But, I definitely think there's room for that for those, those game elements, you know, asfar as, know, leaderboards or competitions or things like that.
(24:09):
I mean, I think there's probably a ton of really good ideas out there.
you would have more than me on this as to, you know, what they could be and how they couldkind of be fused with AI.
But yeah, that's definitely an element for that age group.
You know, I mean, I remember even college football, you know, like a coach was saying,Hey, we got to make this fun.
(24:30):
You know, these are 18 to 22 year old kids.
can't be all business all the time.
And so definitely there's a role for that for sure.
Totally.
If I were to like, I know it's a five step process and you know, the way, and I know theway processes work in general.
I'm an operations professor, so I can't run away from processes in any way.
Right.
But is there, is there one thing that you could tell, you know, the, the audience, youknow, we're on the fence and say, like, look, try this thing.
(24:56):
And of course not, you know, disconnected or anything, but try this thing and see how itgoes.
Like, see how you feel, maybe how it helped you or whatever.
Is there, there a thing that they could do that, that at least probably helped them diptheir toes in this direction?
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, I just say, you the first step is just you could, you know, replace oneassignment you have a regular assignment with and just make it an AI assignment and just
(25:23):
try it, you know, even if you want to make a small portion of the overall course grade orsomething like that, you know, just say, okay, we're going to take this out and instead,
you know, put in a assignment where you can use AI and just see how it goes, you know, andthey can test see.
what sort of assignment they would have to design, you know, from a teacher standpoint.
(25:44):
And then that would force them to think about, okay, how am going to assess it?
And then just roll it out.
You know, I mean, like I was at a conference and someone did this in marketing and theyjust said, all right, now the final deliverable, you know, like a marketing campaign.
Now we just open it up and you can use whatever AI tools you want to help create, youknow, logos and graphics and the copy and everything else.
(26:08):
And so it totally transformed that assignment from just being something where they wouldjust write something and check the plagiarism to open ended thing where they could use all
these tools and create a way better product.
Now that's the ultimate goal from my thinking is that you're trying to make people moreproductive, add more value to those organizations.
And these tools are amazing.
(26:29):
They can help people, you know, workers become more productive, know, create more value.
so, you know, it ends up being a.
a win-win if you open up to that.
Absolutely.
And of course, this is sort of looking into the future and that, know, crystal ball kindof thing that I always say like, I can't look into the future when they ask these kind of
questions.
But, you know, maybe you have an answer.
(26:50):
Maybe you have a view on this.
Where do you see this going next?
You know, is it, you know, is it AI is going to replace or augment creativity in coursedesign and general creating, you know, some of the things that educators are great at
doing or at least were great at doing before this whole thing happened?
Definitely, definitely.
It's a great question.
And what I think really is happening very quickly is the professor used to be maybe moreof kind of like the dispenser of knowledge and the holder of knowledge.
(27:19):
And now all that knowledge is out there in AI.
And so what's interesting about these tasks I give is that, okay, I'll publish a task onMonday and I'll say over the next two weeks during lecture class, I'll show you how to do
it.
Well, by Tuesday, I'm getting emails saying, asking me about like step number seven.
I'm like, wait a minute.
haven't even said anything yet.
I've even had a clash yet on this, you know?
(27:41):
And so they're, just moving ahead.
Like they don't need professors, so to speak, in the same way to dispense that knowledge.
They can go right to chat GPT and have a conversation telling me about price elasticityback and forth.
Right.
And that the studies show it can be as effective or more than just a regular lecture.
And so.
It's really shifted the role of the professor from the dispenser of knowledge to actuallymore of an evaluator.
(28:06):
And that took me a little while to wrap my head around because again, I'm sure like you, Imean, I got into teaching because I liked being in the classroom and explaining things and
working with students.
But unfortunately, I think the demand for that's falling and will continue to fall in thefuture.
And now it's more on the other end where you're really just an evaluator.
And I was talking with actually an art professor about this and she said,
(28:28):
The main function they do for art school now is evaluation.
They said it's not really even teaching people how to draw or how to watercolor.
She's like, they can go on YouTube.
There's a million videos on how to watercolor.
And so for them, they can teach it, yeah, but they're just one of a million voices.
And they said the only reason for student to go to art school is to have their workcritiqued by an art professor, an actual human.
(28:56):
That's it.
That's the only reason to go because all the how to is out there.
And so it's the same with this, you know, explaining and all that it's already out there.
So I think it's really about the judgment piece, you know, you're trying to help studentssay, look, this is, you know, a good product, you know, that you've created that would
look good in a business, you know, or it's not, or has these weaknesses.
(29:21):
And so I'm just telling you that, you know, as someone who's
worked in business and understands the subject that, you know, this is kind of up to paror it's not.
But I really feel that's going to, that's what my role is shifting into.
And it'll be even more of that going forward.
And unfortunately, the teaching part I think is shrinking for better or for worse.
I had to grieve over that, but I'm just trying to be as honest as I can.
(29:46):
Totally.
So Matt, where can we learn more about you?
Tell us about your book, your site, wherever you want to guide us at this point.
Sure, yeah.
The website is overnight.education and the book is out on Amazon, The Overnight AIEducator, How College Faculty Can Transform Their Course in 24 Hours.
(30:06):
And yeah, I'm hoping to, you know, again, to work with any interested individuals or I'llprobably do some sort of webinar as the school year gets closer in August, you know, try
to spread the word.
But really just looking to help people make this transition because it's needed andthere's a lot of energy.
A lot of people see what's happening and they want to be part of this kind of wave andagain be in better positions to help students.
(30:33):
Absolutely, absolutely love that and Matt thank you very much for coming here for givingus, you know a significant portion of that that knowledge Spreading the word about what is
possible in your view with the overnight AI educator method However, Matt and Engagers asyou know at least for now and for today It is time to say that it's game over.
(30:54):
Hey Engagers and thank you for listening to the professor game
So I guess, and since you're interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement,loyalty, using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community
at Professor Game on School.
You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to clickthere, join us.
(31:17):
It's a platform called School.
It's for free and you will find plenty of resources there.
We'll be up to date with everything that we're doing, any opportunities that we might havefor you.
And of course, before you go into your next mission, before you click continue, pleaseremember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of
Professor Game.
See you there.
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