Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome
back to another episode of the
Imperfectly Empowered Podcast.
I am your host, anna Fulmer.
Today we have Dr Andrea Lean onthe show.
Dr Andrea is a mental healthexpert with a PhD in clinical
and school psychology, with aspecialty in gifted students.
Andrea has devoted the majorityof her career to working with
(00:22):
gifted adolescents, young adultsand their families.
An eternal optimist with apassion for taking a holistic
approach to help your giftedchild thrive and make an impact
in the world.
Welcome, dr Andrea.
I am so excited to have you onthe show.
When I was looking through whatyou do, I always the I always
(00:46):
get excited when I see peoplewho have like a niched expertise
, and the amount of educationand experience that you have
with gifted students, children,families is something that I
don't see a lot of, and I thinka lot of us don't even
understand what it entails, andso I'm just really excited when
(01:09):
we you know, for those of youlistening and watching, that is
what we're going to dive intohere, and I want you to hear it
through the lens or see itthrough the lens of even if you
don't have that child to becomemore empathetic or understanding
for those who do and who you'redoing life with.
I just think is so valuable andto feel more equipped to
(01:33):
support a family who does have agifted student or child.
So, anyway, I'm really excited.
But as always, I like to pressthe rewind button and hear a
little bit about you and how yougot to where you are
specifically.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, well, thank you
.
And it is a very particularniche.
It's not a common one, althoughI feel very encouraged that
today there are many more of usout in the world doing our
little thing.
But it's sort of.
You know, it's a little bubble.
But when I started in early2000s, there really wasn't even
(02:11):
a place to go to study what Iwanted to study, so I had to
create my own path.
Where shall I begin?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Really my story, I
think Social security number
where you were born.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, I would say
like most of us, especially
helping professionals, we umcome into this work through
usually some sort of personalexperience.
So I I'm the oldest of four andI grew up in a family um with,
with very little means, myparents neither one of them were
able to go to college or finishcollege.
(02:44):
My mom did start but she had tostop.
That Met my father.
They got married, startedhaving babies and my dad is from
the Philippines, so he isreally coming to the States as
an immigrant.
Just their marriage.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh was he when he
came.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
He was in his early
20s when my parents met.
They met in Australia and gotmarried there, and my mom came
from this little farm town inWisconsin, didn't see much of
the world until she left and shejoined the military.
They both did so.
That's sort of like the contextin which I came into the world,
during a time where most peoplehadn't seen children.
(03:27):
There were four of us that werehalf Filipino and half white,
and so they didn't even knowwhat we were.
They were like what are you?
And again, these days mixedkids are, you know, sort of a
more normal occurrence.
But I grew up in the 80s and90s and, like, in addition to
the questions about the hair,the main question was what are
(03:50):
you?
Pretty much, what are?
you.
So I had an interestingupbringing just from the
standpoint of these two verydifferent cultures coming
together, different culturescoming together, and then, on
top of that, I think my parentsboth of them had a lot of
challenging things in theirchildhood that they brought into
the marriage, like many peopledo, and so that created a fairly
(04:15):
challenging childhoodenvironment for me, and I was
the oldest, so I sort of took itupon myself at a young age.
As a teenager, I struggled withdepression and I struggled with
anxiety and I struggled withall the things.
But I was in the gifted programfrom a young age, and one of
the things I noticed as ateenager was it was like part of
(04:36):
me was in.
I had one foot in the giftedworld of the gifted, the kids
that were identified as giftedwho tended to be wealthy white
children, you know, fromaffluent professional families.
That was not me, so I was inthat world feeling a little like
(04:56):
out of place, and yet I lovedlearning.
And then I had friends who werejust as gifted and brilliant,
but they did not come from thoseeducated high wealth homes and
I watched many of them and I wasfriends with in both camps and
I watched some of them drop outof school, get involved with
(05:19):
drugs, struggle with all sortsof mental health issues.
And I should say I saw the samewith the wealthier kids too.
They were different.
They were eating disorders,there was substance use that was
, you know, kind of under theradar, and those families had
the money to send those kids offto expensive treatment programs
.
Yeah, yeah, so fast forward.
(05:40):
I ended up spending most of mycareer.
I do different things, slightlydifferent things now, or I
should say very different thingsnow, but I I felt drawn to
understand and help gifted,creative, sort of out of the box
people with their social andemotional development.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So that was my let's
define gifted, because I'm
already like hearing people'swheels turning and mine are as
well.
Define for me, yeah, define forme a gifted child.
What would those parameterslook like?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yes, Well, this
question is probably one of the
most important ones before weeven dive into it, because even
state to state researchers likethere's, there's so many
different ways to define it.
I I rarely use the word gifted,except as just a shorthand,
because sometimes people think,oh, you must be, you must have
(06:35):
to be brilliant or a genius tobe high.
IQ.
Um, and so there's.
There's two ways to, there'smany ways to define it, but
there's on a practical level.
So, for instance, state tostate, states get to decide who
qualifies as gifted.
So we can look at it throughthe lens of how are we defining
(06:58):
it for the purposes of access tospecific educational
programming?
And then there arepsychologists more like myself
who are studying it.
Or I was a therapist and ran atherapeutic program for gifted
kids for most of my career upuntil just recently and and
(07:19):
we're not necessarily justlooking at a high IQ score.
Generally speaking, though, ifwe're talking about
intellectually gifted becausethen there's, you know, there's
other.
Everyone has gifts I like tosay I believe every child on
this earth has gifts and talents, that they're born with, every
(07:40):
single one.
So, and I am a huge encouragerof everyone's gifts and talents.
But there is somethingdifferent.
There's something I think, andwe know the term neurodiversity
is much more popular these days,and so, if you think of it from
the standpoint of literally thebrain and the way these kids
(08:03):
are wired, differently, theylearn faster, they're very, very
curious, most, but not all,tend to read at an early age.
They're like precocious readers.
But I could also point to abunch of kids who didn't read at
an early age, and they're alsoidentified as gifted.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And this is primarily
higher IQ, like oftentimes you
are seeing higher IQ.
What are those parameters Like?
What's that number?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So generally, if
we're thinking about gifted
programs, it's usually twostandard deviations above the
normal.
So the normal IQ is 100 plus orminus 10 points.
So anywhere between 90 and 110is like a good, healthy average
IQ and those scores are comparedto the population.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So that's what we're
looking at.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Once you start
getting to, you know 130, which
is the two standard deviationsabove the norm around 130 and up
.
Then we start looking at veryin intellectual terms, superior
intelligence, very superiorright, and the percentages get
smaller and smaller of thenumber of people in the
(09:16):
population who have an IQ atthat point.
But most really comprehensivegifted programs and now again
I'm going back to sort of schooldefinitions will not depend
just on an IQ score, becausewe'll have kids like me I'll put
(09:36):
myself in this camp who maybecame from underprivileged
households and while my parentscertainly encouraged reading and
learning and all of thosethings, they did what they could
.
And there are a lot of childrenout there whose parents cannot
afford books or who are too busybecause they're working
(09:58):
multiple jobs and they don'teven have time to take their kid
to the library, right.
So the access to certainactivities that we know help
develop cognitive skills are notpresent in some families.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So we have to be or
testing.
Testing, too, is something inand of itself that is-.
Totally.
Yeah, I'm glad that you'resaying this because I think it's
helpful for people tounderstand from my understanding
of IQ versus EQ, for example.
Like IQ really doesn't change.
Like your IQ is your IQ.
However, the reason we mightsee a change in that is for a
(10:33):
young kid who is in thatenvironment, who was not reading
from a young age with theirparents or does not even take
tests.
Well, but they develop thoseskills and so they're.
They're testing higher laterbecause they've developed those
fundamental abilities, but theirIQ itself hasn't necessarily
changed.
But it makes sense why it'shard to identify.
Then it's not an equalidentification in third grade.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
And where they're
coming from.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Right, and if there
are any parents who are
listening right now who evenhave a question in their mind is
my kid gifted?
Should I get testing done?
I would highly recommend thatthey try to find someone to do
the testing who is veryknowledgeable about gifted.
And then I'm going to throwanother term out here just to
(11:19):
confuse it twice exceptionalstudents.
So the other reason, aside fromcultural differences and
socioeconomic factors, anotherissue that can get, excuse me in
the way of just looking at ageneral IQ score is there are
children who are very gifted andwho have learning disabilities.
(11:39):
They have ADHD, which impactstheir processing speed.
They have, you know, a host ofunderlying issues, even anxiety,
right.
So there may be other thingsgifted and something else,
meaning they're really bright,they're really gifted, they're
really creative.
I don't like most labels thatthey might be.
(12:23):
quote underachievers meaning allthe teachers or their parents
are saying you have so muchpotential, You're so smart.
We know you're so smart, right?
The kids who can spew off?
They've memorized everythingand their brains seem like
packed with knowledge and theylearn really fast, and yet they
can't, you know, pass 10th grade, or they're, they're, they
(12:43):
can't.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
They're not getting
their homework in there, which
I'm assuming there's probablyunderlying reasons for that that
are not necessarily related totheir.
Yeah, well, I let me alsopreface this.
So what I'm really excited todive into this is I happen to
have a child who is that one, 30and higher.
Yes, and I can say fromexperience, like it is, there
(13:05):
are challenges.
It is really and truly from aparenting standpoint.
Yeah, so I'm excited to diveinto that because you know for
those of you listening, like shejust said I love that she
pointed this out you know,gifted such a terrible word for
it because every kid is giftedand I've literally had this
conversation with my son that hehas a very high IQ.
(13:26):
But we talk about EQ becauseI'm all about emotional
intelligence.
That's right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
What good is high IQ
if you can't remember to put?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
your shoes on right
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
You know, and so
we've already had this
conversation.
Like you know, some people havea really high emotional
intelligence and, you know,helping him see that a high IQ
is not the end all be all.
So for those of you listeningtoo, this is not.
Every single child is gifted.
However, I can honestly sayfrom experience the high IQ kids
(13:54):
are a whole nother okay andthey're extremely difficult to
parent.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
They are.
It's very hard, they are, theyare.
I used to tease earlier in mycareer that and I can still make
the joke that watch out forwhat you wish for, Cause I think
a lot of parents have thisromanticized idea, like about a
gifted kid.
I'm like well, I raised, Iraised a gifted kid myself and I
love them.
Right.
This is what my whole life workis is devoted to not just the
(14:22):
kids but the adults they grow upto be, because we're all in the
world and I hear you.
This is exactly why I reallywanted to focus on the EQ part
of the equation for the high IQkids is because we want them to
be grounded, healthy, moral,like, with a moral compass and
(14:46):
functioning and functioning inthe world, because they do have
um, and again I'm like, keepprefacing it everyone has things
to offer the world.
However, they have a veryparticular way of seeing the
world and interacting with theworld and if we can harness
those gifts and harness anddevelop the EQ, they're going to
(15:08):
be phenomenal leaders in theworld.
And so that is really my heartto help equip parents, to help.
I also coach young people whofall into this category, but I
do a lot of work with parents Um, because, as you said, it's not
necessarily intuitive unlessyou yourself, for whatever
(15:31):
reason you know, did a lot, dida lot of your own work and
understand I mean most giftedkids have gifted parents.
Um, the apple doesn't fall toofar from the tree, but but most
of this we don't learn, and weso.
We certainly don't get aparenting manual about how to
raise any child, much less a kidwho I'll just use the phrase
special needs.
They are just as different fromthe norm as a child who falls to
(15:54):
standard deviations, on theother end, from their emotional
needs, from their social needs.
If we stick a gifted kid or agifted adult in a room where
they're the only one like them,cognitively, intellectually,
they're gonna try to haveconversations with their peers
(16:15):
that just don't.
They don't normally mix easily,especially at young ages, that
discrepancy, and so they grow up, often feeling I'll speak for
myself I didn't know what it wasfrom and there were lots of
reasons why I felt like an other.
But now that I'm an adult andnow that I've studied this, I
understand like, even if younever label a kid gifted, even
(16:38):
if they never got programmingfor gifted, most of them know
that they operate a littledifferently than their peers and
so there's just this intuitivesense of is there something
wrong with me?
And that can be, especiallywhen they get into adolescence,
can really start to affect theirself-esteem.
(16:58):
So one of the things parentscan do is just to affirm their
uniqueness not to overblow it.
Right, Because in the other sideis very narcissistic and yes
and all ego right.
So I think it's good thatyou're you're talking with your
child about that grounding ofyou know, I guess the end all be
(17:19):
all, which is not yes, but it'scertainly, you know, it
certainly can take them far.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
So, yeah, yeah, I'm
so excited to dive into it.
Before we dive into Dr Andrea'sexpert advice on helping your
gifted child thrive and impactthe world, we're going to play a
little round of.
Would you rather?
She didn't know she was signingup?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
for this.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
But we're going to
get to know her a little bit
better.
So if you drive throughstarbucks, would you rather a
hot drink or an iced drink, liketake away the time of the year,
the season doesn't matter, it'susually your go-to, it's hot.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Do you have a go-to
drink?
The other, my go-to is a verysimple, uh half calf americano
with a little cinnamon sprinkledon top that sounds good.
It's pretty simple.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
What is the Americano
?
What's different?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
about that.
It's just espresso mixed withwater.
I like it because I can get ithalf decaf and I don't like
drinking too, much caffeine, butit was 82 degrees here the
other day and I skipped out onmy hot drink and I went for an
iced and it was not my normalgo-to I had to like there's so
many options at Starbucks.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, I love the
nitro cold brew is one of my.
Yes, that's, I love it.
Yes, yeah, well, I'll just takebasically any coffee, yeah,
yeah.
So you're flying on a plane,you're going somewhere, but
you're there for at least acouple hours.
Would you rather beside you acrying baby or an adult who
(18:50):
doesn't stop talking?
Oh, ooh.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Ooh, this is a good
one.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Knowing we have full
empathy and love for all of you
A crying baby, A crying baby.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I have a lot of
empathy for parents with crying
babies on the plane and I'm toomuch of a people pleaser still
where I, if someone startstalking to me on the plane, I
feel like I've it's hard not toengage.
I'm a psychologist.
I love people, but sometimesyou know you just want to put
your head in a book.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yes, would you rather
go to a coffee house or a
concert hall?
Concert hall.
Do you have a favorite concerthall or is there like a favorite
concert?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
um, you've been my
well, I am such a huge lover of
any kind of live music but butone of the places, our typical
tradition in our household, eventhough we don't live in
Massachusetts anymore.
In the summer the BostonSymphony comes out west to the.
Berkshires, at a place calledTanglewood, and so it's an
(19:56):
outdoor concert hall and it'sthe most beautiful, wonderful
experience and I like to gothere as much as possible
especially in the summer.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
That sounds amazing.
I love that.
Yeah, I'm super weird and oldfashioned in that way.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I would love.
I would prefer to hear asymphony live than like a pop
band live.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I like all music, but
when it comes to live, it is.
It's just there's somethingabout classical music too, and
that type of music that justfeels other worldly Like.
It's a different experience.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, and you don't
get that experience most of the
time in our modern world.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
And they do have pop
concerts there.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
But we pick up, we
pick we pack a beautiful picnic
and then that's fun, you know itgets dark and you're sitting
under the stars and you'relistening to these amazing
performers.
You know play and I grew upplaying piano, so I like all
that classical music, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I love that.
If you had the option, wouldyou rather bike or rollerblade?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Probably bike,
Probably bike.
I don't know if I'm such a goodrollerblader, although in my
midlife I thought maybe I shouldtake it up.
I hear it's better for yourjoints.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, you should do
it.
We uh, we all got rollerbladesfor Christmas this past year
because we're building a homeand there's tons of paths.
So I thought like let's try tolike anything we can do to get
our kids outside more, and we'regoing to have a massive
unfinished basement.
So we got like floor hockeystuff.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
So anyway stuff so
anyway, I mean, it sounds fun
for the first time in, yes, twodecades.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
It is fun, yeah, um,
and so, to give a perspective,
talking about gifted students,gifted children, one of the
things that I have had to learnwith my son and he's just, he's
so amazing, he's constantlysurprising me.
I never know what's going tocome out of his mouth sometimes.
(21:51):
Sometimes, I like hold theedges of my seat, I'm like, oh,
it's coming.
Yes, because of that lack ofsocial awareness.
Um, but just to give aperspective.
So he was in kindergarten and,um, I was telling him that we
need to be ready by in, by threeo'clock, and at the time it was
two 45 and his instant responsewas okay, so we need to leave
(22:16):
in three twelfths of an hour.
I was like, uh, yes, 15 minutes, but what I've had to learn is
like raising a kid who fits thislike high gifted profile is to
help him understand that, yes,he's right.
However, just so that youunderstand, the majority of
(22:40):
people are going to comprehendthat to be 15 minutes.
So you're right, but mostpeople are going to understand
that, as we're going to leave in15 minutes, because what ends
up happening is for these kids,at least in my experience,
because they just don't processinformation like the majority of
(23:01):
humanity, like you said, theystart to feel like they're
strange, that they're weird thatthey're different.
People kind of look at themwith blank faces.
Like what are you talking about?
You know he's heard so manytimes like are you a genius?
Right, like, like just thatidea and it.
You would think it's acompliment, but it makes him
(23:22):
sometimes actually feel stupidbecause he's so smart.
Yes, so just to give a like.
I could give so many, but justlike a little snippet of example
, it's a great example.
You know the challenges thatwe're up against.
Or, for example, there areplenty of times that we've
gotten to school and he doesn'thave his shoes on.
Yep, it's just like in hisfocused mind, he was on a
(23:43):
mission, this is what and hejust completely forgot to put
shoes on.
Just like a super practical.
Anyway, just giving someinsight, yeah it's so good, I
think.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I mean I love hearing
all the unique stories that
people share, whether theirchild's five or 15 or third
grade, now a couple of weekendsago, and one, one of the I mean
like textbook gifted kid, grownup.
I mean he's a, he's a grown mannow but African-American, came
(24:22):
from a very disadvantagedhousehold, brother in prison,
but he got a PhD at Yale.
I mean, we're sitting in mykitchen talking and I like
within five seconds I justlooked at my husband who had a
big smile on his face because heknew I was going to be so
excited to get to know thisperson.
That way of thinking it doesn'tnever, it never goes away.
(24:45):
They can learn different waysto socialize and be in the world
, obviously, but that's just thebeauty of their brain and
that's part of I mean, I thinkas a parent, it's that walking
the tightrope of educating them,to let them know, hey, most
people are probably going tothink about it this way and
(25:06):
that's helpful and you know,when he's a grown up he may
forget other.
Really, you know it's like theprofessor, you know.
I mean some of thosestereotypes are not very
complementary but there is sometruth to it.
And my messaging to kids again,whether they have learning
(25:30):
disabilities underneath or not,or whether they have ADHD or not
, but even just like whatever astraight, straight, solid,
gifted kid looks like that, inand of itself looks so different
across different kids, but it'stheir superpower, that's their
superpower, so they just have tofigure out how do I, without
(25:52):
squashing their spirit, and whatmakes them wonderful, how do I
show up in the world and how doI figure out how to navigate the
social piece and the emotionaland the emotional piece, cause
they're wired.
There's a whole conversationthere about just their um, their
nervous system and sometendencies there.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
So to touch on the
social for a minute.
So, for example, and like he,like we've talked about this,
like if Caleb was sitting righthere he would just laugh, Like
he knows this.
We have very open conversations, Um, but like when he was
younger, we I mean this canstill happen, although he's a
little bit more aware now likewe would be at someone's house
who we had just we barely knowwe've been invited over for
(26:35):
really nice dinner.
This literally happened andwe're sitting and we're eating
this, this dinner, and Caleb,out of the blue, um, looks up
and looks across the table andhe said this is the worst
chicken I've ever had.
And you know, in his mind it'sfactual, there's no like
morality assigned to it, there'sno, um, there's no malice
(26:59):
assigned to it, it's just simplythis is the worst chicken he's
ever tasted.
And the lack of social.
You know, like either mydaughters would would never say
that, or the one would never,cause he's a people pleaser, or
the other would say it with theintent of stirring up trouble,
Like that's the difference in myother two.
Right, but for him it was justa fact.
(27:19):
And so, helping him understandwhat's a fact to him and how it
could affect somebody else'semotions and make them feel
really badly, even though in hishead it's just a fact.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Like.
That's just one example of alsosome of the challenges of the
lack of social awareness andwhere he can feel ostracized
because in his head it's a factbut he's just literally like
offended an entire room and he'snot aware of it.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah and with no yeah
, not aware, but no intent, and
it's hard.
No, no intent.
Like literally there's nomalice in him, that's right, and
I think again.
All of those are such greatexamples.
I also want to add, because asI'm flashing through in my head,
of some students I've workedwith through the years, who were
yes, and like I'm literallylike offering this to hear tips,
(28:08):
yes, who?
just again for variety's sake,so your listeners aren't
thinking, there's just oneversion of this I've certainly
worked with very gifted,talented students whose EQ is
off the charts, like off thecharts, so it's not necessarily
(28:29):
true.
This is what I mean about thevariety.
There are gifted kids who mayfeel different socially but they
don't necessarily say a lot ofsocially.
You know what we might callsocially inappropriate things.
There are others who I meanpart of their gifts is their EQ.
I mean they are very giftedsocially and emotionally, like
(28:51):
that emotional intelligence isreally really high.
So and they make they're thenatural leaders right, like
everyone is following them, evenat a young age.
There was a young woman that Iworked with and she was about 15
or 16 and she was brilliant.
Her parents were professors at awonderful university in New
(29:13):
York City but she had had sometrauma and because of some of
those things that she waswalking out, she took all those
gifts and she took her high EQand you know she got into drugs
and things that you know thatteam that kind of got got with
the, the rowdy crowd and she wasso effective.
(29:38):
She was just so effective.
And so that's that's what Imean about my heart and my, my
goal to help them.
I had so many conversationswith her about, like the power
that she had, that she didn'teven realize because she didn't
even think of herself as smart,because she did have a learning
(29:59):
disability, but she wasincredibly gifted and so I just
want to paint that other picture.
They can be actually one of thesmartest from an emotionally
intelligent standpoint.
Smartest in the room can readthe room and can, if not geared
(30:20):
and you know, sort of taughtinto the right direction,
manipulate people, really,really well, I get suspicious.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
That might be my
third, yes, yes, we'll see what
her IQ looks like, but she isyeah we're being told by her
therapist that might actually bethe case, which is really
helpful for me to hear you sayRight, right.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So it can look, it
can present very differently and
the social emotional issues aremore and again.
What they look like andmanifest will vary very much
from gifted kid to gifted kid,because there's just so many
variables right.
It's like saying all kids withlearning disabilities are going
to be one way.
That's just would be aridiculous thing to say.
(31:01):
So not all gifted kids.
I mean, you have differentenvironments, different
personalities so they caninteract with the world
differently, but still there aresome kind of general trends
because they develop as childrenand through adolescence with
that difference and the way theworld interacts with can
(31:23):
foundationally sit and take atest that they can the other,
like environmental factors, so100%.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
I am curious let's
tap in just for a second
intentional strategies for us asparents to help that child
emotionally.
Because I can speak fromobservation and I'm not sure if
this is consistent or it tendsto be a trend, but there tends
(32:06):
to be more like almost.
They're more emotionallyvolatile.
It's almost like they don'thave as good of regulation
because they can't even likerecognize maybe, why they're
responding.
I don't even know.
But I am curious is that aconsistent or a trend that you
(32:26):
see?
And then how do we help ourchild thrive with this
intellectual gift but alsodevelop emotionally so that they
can impact the world with moreawareness and empathy and
understanding?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Well, one of the
things it's such a good question
, not all gifted kids again.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I'm going to say that
for everything not all of them,
but many of them willexperience emotions intensely.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
They just experience
life more intensely.
One of the terms that we use todescribe what that is is called
overexcitabilities, andoverexcitabilities are
intellectual overexcitabilities,which we've already been
talking about.
There are emotionaloverexcitabilities, can are
intellectual overexcitabilities,which are, which we've already
been talking about.
There are emotionaloverexcitabilities.
Sometimes there's the physical.
So some of them you knowthey're the ones that get
(33:24):
diagnosed with ADHD becausethey're just like they're on the
move, they're like motor isoverexcited, so, but emotionally
they do tend to experiencethings, just it's like they have
bigger feelings so, andoftentimes they, um, they
develop with what we call likeit's asynchronous development.
So they may be two grade levelsahead intellectually, but
(33:48):
emotionally they're, they seemlike they're two grade levels
behind again, and that changesover time.
But they're not developing likein in this perfect everything's
together linear fashion.
So one of the things that allparents, you know, I would
encourage parents of all kids todo is just to be very
(34:09):
intentional.
But I think for gifted kids,one just knowing that about them
is helpful.
So you can sort of prepareyourself with the patience you
need to deal when there's feelslike wow, this is a big, a big
emotional reaction to somethingthat doesn't seem that big of a
deal.
So you can have the patienceand to step in and teach them
(34:31):
the tools to regulate theiremotions, because they're it's
like their brain, they're,they're going so fast, like you
said, they may not even realizebecause there's this disconnect
between like what's happening intheir bodies and they're, and
they're just going so fast thatit takes some guided practice,
(34:53):
and for some kids that meanslearning some skills through
therapy right, even if they'renot necessarily struggling with
severe mental health issues butthere could just be some time
set aside for a season wherethey are practicing emotion
regulation skills, where they'redeveloping language If they
(35:14):
struggle with that, to just beable to name and articulate this
is what I'm feeling, this ishow I'm feeling, and then have
the freedom, or like thepermission in the family to have
ways to deal with those bigfeelings in a way that's not
shaming or guilt producing.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Have you seen
strategies that tend to work
among your clients or among thefamilies Like?
Have you seen practices thatseem to be helpful, breath
grounding techniques?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
So one of the things
I mean, I'll just throw this one
as a concrete one, like 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
I just actually taught myhusband this one the other day
(36:03):
and he thought, oh, that's great, right.
So it's like find five things.
This just gets them veryconcrete in the moment Five
things that you can see, fourthings that you can hear, three
things that you can touch, twothat you can smell, one that you
can taste, something like that.
But it's basically let's useour senses to notice where we
(36:26):
are right now and groundourselves in the present moment.
So there are techniques likethat.
There's, like I said, thebreath work.
There's, as a parent, makingsure that they're sleeping well,
which for gifted kids also canbe an issue.
They tend to not need as muchsleep or they're like up at
(36:48):
night and it's hard to kind ofget them settled back in.
But making sure they just havetheir physical needs met right,
they're eating well, they'veagain, all the standard things
that we would do just to makesure our kids are optimally set
up for the day so that they'renot quite as prone to being
(37:10):
emotionally reactive.
But it could also mean, you know, if you have a kid who their
big feelings.
I worked with a family, uh,about a year ago, and they had a
wonderful six year old but wasgoing through a phase Um, and
that those big feelings wereturning into inappropriate, you
know, hitting and and yeah,tantrums at school and things
(37:33):
like that, just things that weregetting really disruptive.
And so they they did have atherapist, a child therapist
working with him and workingwith the school, but it was also
making sure, like when thatchild came home from school was,
was this child getting theemotional needs met because
there was a new sibling in thehousehold.
(37:54):
So part of that was a reactionto things that are going on
environmentally, emotionally,but this child didn't have the
being able to connect like I'mfeeling.
I'm feeling upset and I'msupposed to love my new baby
brother, but you know I'm notgetting as much attention
because yeah, yeah, so hittingnew baby brother, yes, yes, so
(38:17):
some of these things again.
they're.
They are, um, when I say the,the lens through which we look.
This might be just a typicaltherapy case, right, a child is
upset, there's a sibling born.
You maybe get a familytherapist or a child therapist
in this case.
You maybe get a familytherapist or a child therapist
(38:58):
in this case.
But I think that when you havethis added layer of the
intellectual, the precociousness, right especially at these
young ages, it is very helpfulto have a therapist working with
a family who understands that,because they can sometimes be
misdiagnosed.
This is a huge issue.
They can be misdiagnosed ashaving ADHD or some other issue,
and then we're so quick in thiscountry to medicate and that
breaks my heart because a lot oftraits of gifted kids overlap
with traits of ADHD, but it'snot the same.
(39:19):
And that's not to say that youcan't be gifted with ADHD, but
that's where you need someonewho can do an evaluation and
have it be accurate, because youcertainly, especially if you're
thinking of treating anythingwith a medication, you want to
make sure that that childactually needs that Um and
they're not, you know and andthey're gifted, getting miss
(39:41):
understood or misdiagnosed.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So there's, there's
issues like that.
What are ways?
Um, so I, you know, as like,especially with my son, uh, he's
so lovely.
We're just also inherently sodifferent.
Like I am the very practical.
I am not the high, I'm not the130 and higher IQ, for sure, but
(40:04):
for me, one of the things, too,that I have seen and that we
have had to work on and again,if he was sitting here, like he
would say the same thing thatwe've talked about and in my
experience, the kids with a highIQ, if they feel uncomfortable
in a situation, it almost seemslike the tendency is to pull
into their own minds and justseek more knowledge or like
(40:28):
challenge.
It's like that's their comfortzone is to, you know, play games
by themselves and before peopleat one time, or, um, just
something.
But especially if it's like asituation where, um, there's
insecurity or uncertainty or youknow he's never done it before,
(40:48):
the tendency can be well, I'drather just stay home and play
my game or whatever, and I wouldlove to hear what is the
balance there between and Ishould say, like anyone
listening who knows my son mightalso be like what he's so well
adjusted socially and we've donea lot of work and he really he
is.
He's a funny dichotomy of a lotof things, but I do see that
(41:11):
tendency and for those of youlistening, some of you adults
might be like this too and youmight be like, oh my gosh, I've
never been talking about me.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, so for those of
you listening and watching?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
this isn't just kids.
Maybe this is you.
And maybe I'm speaking for youhere, but if that is someone's
tendency to just be like, I'muncomfortable and so I find
myself just wanting to retreatinto myself.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I'm just going to?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Yeah, how do you
balance that and force somebody
into that socially uncomfortableand stretch them without
pushing them?
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, Well, first, I
would guess that there are many
um, especially the, theperfectionistic women out there
listening um who probably Ishouldn't say probably but who
may have not been identified aschildren.
There are a lot of gifted adultsout there who have no idea that
they're gifted, which is one ofthe reasons why I don't use
that term when I'm working withpeople, because, um, yeah, a lot
(42:07):
of people don't identify withthat.
But, um, perfectionism is a isone of the core characteristics
of gifted people and, um, Ithink again, understanding that
and having empathy and honoringthat is a real struggle for your
son is one thing and it'salways, and just like with any
(42:33):
child struggling with anythingthey feel anxious about.
It's like we want to validateand we don't want to just let
them stay in that avoidancespace because that becomes a
learned behavior over time.
That just builds up in theirmind how horrible it must be and
then they just avoid and avoidand avoid as a way of life.
(42:57):
So the only way to counteractthat avoidance is to take action
and tackle it.
So I was definitely that kidand to be really 100%
transparency to this day.
that is a challenge I have toactively actively you know, go
against my tendency, which is,if I can't do it perfectly the
(43:20):
first time, then I'm just notgoing to do it Because there's
all these other things that Igrew up as a young child, just
like I used to do it first time,it was perfect, it was better,
right, and so when they havethose experiences and things are
so easy, then when things arenot easy, they've got to develop
the muscle, like every child,to get some grit Right and so.
(43:42):
So there's the nudging, there'sthe.
You know, one of the things Idid with my daughter growing up
and I think my mom I haven'tasked her specifically, but
you're not going to just um, the, the, the.
The only teacher complaint mydaughter got continuously
(44:13):
through elementary school wasshe reads too much, and it was.
The teacher would alwayspractice it at the parent
teacher and they said andthey're and she's like I know
this is a crazy thing to besaying, especially in elementary
school, where we're just tryingto get all the kids to read and
they're like she just reads allthe time and I was, like I know
(44:34):
, one of the funny stories inour house.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
put a book in his
desk and we've gotten the
teacher where he was caughtreading in the book in his desk.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Classic, classic
gifted kid move.
And one of the funny stories inour house was I think my
daughter was about five or sixand first of all she was very
concerned that the otherchildren, like in her
kindergarten class they, did notknow how to read and she took
it upon herself to make sure shewas going to teach them all
because she was concerned thatthey didn't already know.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
But we were walking
through a grocery store and she
had, like her big thick, youknow potter book or whatever she
had, and ran right into one ofthe metal poles in the grocery
store.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
I that's still needs
to listen to this classic
classic.
I'm like audrey, you as my son.
The book down for at least whenwe're walking through the
grocery store it's dangerous.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
He literally again,
if he was sitting here we would
laugh, because this is him.
I literally tell this storybecause it is so funny, of he
will be reading.
I refuse to let him walk homereading a book.
I told him literally he willlose his allowance if he does it
, because I swear he would gethit by a car.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
It's a safety concern
.
It's a safety concern.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
I feel so seen, yes,
yes, I'm like, oh my gosh, what
am I doing wrong?
Because that would be him.
I mean, he, literally.
We have the funniest story ofagain kindergarten reading a
book in the kitchen.
He was walking through thekitchen and just literally face
planted into the pole that hadbeen in the middle of our house
when we knocked out a wall fortwo years and again that
emotional like accused me ofmaking him walk into the pool
(46:06):
when I was across the room.
Like he and I laugh about itnow.
But it's so true, it's likethat, it's yeah, it's like that
hyper focus and the lack of likeawareness that at times has
just been like oh my gosh,they're in their little world
past the age of you know what Imean, Right?
Well, here's an, here's's ahere's a concrete example of
(46:27):
what keep telling me how to helphim.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
So my daughter when
she was younger, the very, um,
you know, like typical suburbanthing was, even, you know, when
they were five, was to get on alittle kid, you know, like the
soccer, soccer teams in theneighborhood yeah.
She did not want to do that.
She did not want to play teamsports.
Um, she was very vocal allthrough elementary school, but I
wanted her to develop,especially because she was an
(46:53):
only child.
I wanted her, outside of justthe classroom, to be interacting
with peers, developing thoseskills and doing something
physical, because, if she hadher way, she was actually a very
physical kid.
But, um, you know the readingthing, so so so I didn't force
(47:19):
her to do a team sport, although, um, I thought it would be good
for her to do that.
But I said, okay, then you, weneed, you need to get involved
in something physical andsomething where there's I guess
I should say she didn't want todo like a competitive sport.
She didn't want to do acompetitive sport.
Probably the anxiety of it wasjust too much for her so, what
she ended up.
What we found she did gymnasticsall growing up from a young age
(47:40):
, but it was not competitive.
And then, even when she gotinto middle school, we were able
to find, because by that pointit starts getting more
competitive and she was anamazing gymnast, she.
She could have competed, butshe didn't want, she didn't want
that pressure.
So we found something that wasmuch more um, there was still a
team element.
She had team members.
It was more.
It was a performance team,though, and so she did
(48:04):
gymnastics and she ended upcoaching gymnastics and even
college coach gymnastics.
That ended up being.
I was so thankful because itstarted off at a young age and I
gave her some choice in thematter and she chose gymnastics.
And I didn't force her to dosoccer, but from a physical
standpoint she became an amazingathlete, which I don't know if
she.
From a physical standpoint, shebecame an amazing athlete which
(48:26):
I don't know if she.
I don't know what would havehappened had we not had
gymnastics and she developedsuch beautiful, wonderful
relationships with the girls onher team, with her coach, and
then she was a coach, and so allthe things that I cared about
as a parent the relationships,the physical movement, you know
being just being in a place thatwasn't.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Of course it was more
creative.
It was more creative right,which is very, very creative.
I can see that, yes, beingreally beneficial for the right,
yes, for the right kid.
We are.
We are really.
I am so grateful for my husband.
He does provide sort of aunique.
My husband's definitely the onewith a higher IQ, but he also
grew up an athlete and was afootball coach for 10 years, so
(49:08):
that nurtured sense like myson's very interested in sports
and he is.
But I see what you're saying.
We're depending on the cultureof the home too.
This is probably true of anykid.
It can be really easy to pullto one extreme and then miss,
like you're saying, especiallythat need for physicality and
being present and for the highIQ kid being okay with something
(49:32):
that isn't always anintellectual challenge.
It's amazing how quickly my songot super into the ex's nose of
football coaching, like heloved thinking through, like
where everyone's going with myhusband.
But then there was a point whereit's like, at some point you
just got to go out and hitsomething.
Yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
I mean, it's just
time to go out and be physical.
Yes, and this gets backactually to the question about
emotion regulation because,again, for all kids, all kids,
but especially the gifted oneswho want to stay up here in
their head and again I can speakfor myself when I am in my body
, when I am doing activitiesthat get me back in my body
(50:11):
grounded it helps me stay out ofmy head and a lot of the
teenagers that I worked with whowere struggling and, and you
know, college kids who are veryanxious or get depressed, like
it's because they they they'renot.
They're not very skilled atgetting out of their heads, so
they live up here and so, from ayoung age, if you can give them
(50:34):
a path that is enjoyable forthem, that they love doing,
whether it's football or socceror gymnastics or dance or
something that just helps them.
It's, it's almost like thesaving grace.
I and I don't want to over ask,to overstate that, but my
daughter even said, like whatwould she do?
Now she's in her mid twentiesand she lives in Hawaii and she
surfs every day because shedoesn't do gymnastics.
(50:55):
But it's awesome.
But she knows herself, she'sgot to find that way to get out
of her head into her body.
Interesting, that's a goodoverarching strategy.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah, well, I love it
and I'm even thinking, like my,
my two younger ones who, um, mythird one very well might have
that high IQ to like what you'redescribing is very much making
some things make sense for hertoo.
But I love what you just said,though I do think it's really
poignant, I'm even thinkingabout this the difference
between, um you know, my youngertwo, that when it comes to
(51:30):
getting out of their heads andthat physical movement that the
one higher IQ kid might do wellwith the competitive um movement
or, like that, team sport, andthat may be the other one, like
I'm seeing the potential that,like my daughter, would do
better in like the dance, theperforming arts, the like more
(51:53):
creative physical movementinstead of competitive Right.
She does seem to have a higherlevel of anxiety over those
types of things than my, than myson.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
I'm I'm thinking out
loud and one day my kids don't
look back on this and be like,oh my gosh, why'd you talk about
me so much?
Speaker 2 (52:12):
Like I tried to be
really open with them too, even
at this age, about what I'msaying.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
But I just think it's
so important to be transparent
because we're all in thistogether and there's no value
assigned to these things.
They've been made in the imageof God, you've been made in the
image of God, so right, like ittakes a village.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Every kid is so
different.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Every kid is so
different.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
But I think that
they're, when you understand
some of the overarchingprinciples, like understanding
the perfectionism, understandingthe big emotions, understanding
, like the tendency to live intheir head and you know those
things and you can knowing yourchild, your child, your unique
child, like it's a little, thereis the give and take, because
you don't want to give them, anychild, all the power to make
(52:54):
all the decisions for them,because they'd be eating candy
every night, or you know, ornever, or reading all day right,
exactly, um and so.
But there still needs to be thatbalance and just like honoring,
like I see you for who you areand how you're created to be,
and I, as your parent, am hereto help, steward, help you
steward, those gifts and thosetalents so that you will become
(53:18):
who you're supposed to be andhave whatever path ahead of them
that is fulfilling them.
That is fulfilling yeah, that'sthat's.
You know.
We want them to feel fulfilledand I think one of the biggest
dangers of gifted kids and ifyou're, you know there's all the
, there's so many.
My daughter sends them to me,the TikToks and the reels on you
(53:40):
know the gifted kids who arelike.
I think that the gifted kid,dropouts, or this whole theme of
or burnt out, burnt out, ratherthat they get put on this path
from a young age because theirintellect does stand out and
even though I am a hugeproponent, generally speaking,
(54:02):
of a high quality gifted program, because I think there's a
purpose for that they need to bechallenged, they need to be
stretched.
They, if they're sitting in aregular classroom reading under
their desk because they alreadyknow everything, that's not a
useful, you know, that's justnot useful for them in their
development.
But the danger in that is thisfeeling of, oh, I'm just so
(54:23):
smart, so I have to be on thispath.
And being smart means I haveextra homework or I have to take
all the AP classes, which isjust more work, and so, again, I
think probably a lot of yourlisteners who can identify even
with this trajectory, even ifthey weren't identified as
gifted.
It's this feeling of to be agood person, to have value.
(54:47):
I have to keep doing all ofthese things because I don't
know.
That's just the story of howtheir lives unfold.
You know, I've worked with a lotof families who kids were like
like high ranking I don't knowif that's the right term like
chess players or they're thereand they're in these families
again who are high achievingparents, and so even if there's
(55:11):
not direct pressure, yes, that'sa very real fear of mine,
because that's our home Fulltransparency.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
That's our home.
I've never, you know, hiddenthat, like my husband and I are
both very high achievers.
Right, I've achieved a lot, andthat is definitely even the
subconscious.
Yes, yes.
There Definitely always open,yeah, and.
I guess a really quick follow-upquestion on that, to also hit
the other end of things.
So there is that kid who'ssuper high achieving and they
(55:40):
feel like they need to do allthe things to make the best use
of that intellect.
But then what about the kid whofalls on the other side?
They, they almost selfabotageand it's kind of like what you
were saying, that high achievingdropout or however you phrased
it earlier, where they almostdon't allow themselves to
(56:01):
experience the benefit of theirgifts.
How do you approach that kidand what's their core fear?
Like what are we really needingto speak to Right?
Speaker 2 (56:13):
I would say a lot of
the kids that I've worked with.
It is this extreme pressure toperform.
And again, on themselves.
And even um, and I think also ona level from family or I or or
just their community, right,like if you're in a school
(56:36):
district or a school, even ajust a school community that is
characterized as many schoolsare.
I went to one.
It's just a high achievingschool, right, you've got a lot
of high achievers in there.
It's like people are vying forthe valedictorian, like there
it's just um, there's a cultureof that and that is not a bad
(56:57):
thing.
But some of those students whojust feel like I, I can't even
compete, the anxiety is so greatthat they're like it's like,
it's like competitive sports,right, I can't even compete.
The anxiety is so great thatthey're like it's like, it's
like competitive sports, right,I don't.
I don't even think I, I have, Ican compete, so I'm just not
even going to try.
It's just another way of like,I'm just going to, I'm just
dropping out of the race.
(57:19):
So, um, and what often happensthen, when those kids start to
like go downhill, like thebeginning part of it, like they
stop turning in their homework,they stop like wanting to go to
school, then there's maybeschool refusal, right, and then
they just stop.
Um, I've worked with so manyfamilies and the all the
well-meaning adults the teachers, the guidance counselor, the
(57:39):
parents, right, they're liketrying to get this kid to go to
school.
Um, of course, because you wantthem to go to school.
But I would say there's usuallya lot of anxiety and it could
be an undiagnosed learningdisability of some sort.
That again, they look they'reso smart.
(58:01):
So, usually around adolescenceis when we and it could happen
later, I, I mean some kidsthey're so smart that it masks
the underlying issues, um, for along time.
But they intuitively know it'slike they can't keep up.
They there's something.
The way I describe it to kidsis it's like you have a, uh, a
(58:21):
jaguar car.
It's like the engine, likeyou're meant to, but you're
putting like the worst, likeunleaded gas in there and it's
not meant for that car.
And so you're frustrated inyourself Cause you're like I
feel like I should be able to gofast, like I have a lot of
power right, so why can't?
(58:41):
I why can't I and everyone'stelling me how smart I am?
What?
Speaker 1 (58:45):
are those learning
disabilities that you see, what
are the most common?
Speaker 2 (58:49):
There can be some
processing issues, so auditory
processing issues.
They might like they're sittingin a classroom and literally
like it's like blah, blah, blahright it's, they can hear.
It's not a hearing issue, it'sprocessing what they're hearing.
That may be slower.
There could be just straightreading issues.
I mean that girl that I spokeabout earlier who had the high
(59:12):
EQ she ended up having.
She had really really severedyslexia which made her feel
stupid even though she wasbrilliant in all the other ways.
But then once we were able toshow her like this is just the
way your brain works, like youhave a really creative brain A
lot of creative brains also arecharacterized by this thing
where you can just see it's likethe strength looks like a
(59:35):
weakness, but the strength is Ican see an object in.
You turn it any way right.
That's basically what a brainof dyslexics can do, of
dyslexics can do so creativelyin the visual spatial area.
They could take a job doingthat stuff in like Excel, but
when it comes to reading in abook, it's it feels near
(59:55):
impossible.
So but she used, you know, audioand now there's so many
technological tools to help buta lot of these things just need
to be discovered, and so I think, when there's a kid refusing or
just sort of not motivated togo to school, that there could
be an underlying issue there.
It could also just be that it'snot the right academic
(01:00:17):
environment, it's just a poorfit, and so I always, always
want parents to, and encourageparents to advocate in the right
way, because, of course,schools are going to react to,
like the parent who's coming insaying my child needs this and
my child needs that, but but toask questions and be curious
alongside the teacher of yeah,do you think this might be going
(01:00:40):
on?
You know, we know he's reallyinto this.
So, so, working with the school, um, to the extent that you can
, but you know, in reallyextreme cases I've I know
parents have pulled their kidsout of school and find schools
or homeschooling, because it canbe difficult.
It's not impossible, um, but itcan be more challenging in a
(01:01:03):
public school setting, justbecause there's only.
You know they're trying to meetthe needs of so many different
kinds of minds.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Well, and then I
would also throw out there that
if somebody is concerned, thereis also Andrea, that's true.
Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Dr Andrea is here.
Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Tell us where people
can find you and how you're
serving people, but how they canfollow you to learn more and
understand your services.
Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Well, they can.
My name is my website, so it'sAndrea line L E I N Um.
They can also find me onInstagram at drandrealine, and I
do a lot I like I again.
I specialize with gifted andcreative folks, so whether you
are a gifted, or maybe you are,suspecting you're an undiagnosed
(01:01:52):
gifted kid who grew up andyou're like, oh my goodness, I
identify with all these thingsbut I don't even know where to
begin.
I do coaching and consultingfor those people and young
adults who sort of are in thatphase of figuring out their life
, as well as I do a lot ofparent coaching specifically for
those with gifted kids of anyage.
(01:02:12):
But especially I have a lot ofparents who come to me their
gifted child might be a littlebit on the older side and
starting to bump up into somemore, just some challenges that
they're not sure how to tackle.
Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
So I help support
parents in that journey.
I love it.
I love it.
I just pray God's blessing overyour heart, your home and all
of the amazing families thatyou're serving.
I learned so much I felt likeit was such a blessing To me,
even like I've said before youguys, it takes a village and I'm
so grateful for yourtransparency and the way that
you are serving.
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to share.