April 27, 2025 • 55 mins
In this episode of Scene N Nerd, Will Polk is joined by his wife, Sharlini, for an in-depth, spoiler-filled discussion on the new film "Sinners." They dive into the film's rich themes, exploring the complexities of race, identity, and the cultural significance of music in the 1930s South. With a standout cast led by Michael B. Jordan, the film challenges traditional horror tropes by weaving a narrative that highlights the struggles of twin brothers returning to their hometown, only to confront an even greater evil.
Will and Sharlini delve into the film's stunning visuals and costume design, crafted by the talented Ruth E. Carter, and how they transport viewers into the period. They also discuss the profound impact of music as a character in the film, illustrating how it connects the characters to their heritage and the larger narrative of community and belonging. The hosts reflect on the portrayal of vulnerability in male relationships, the importance of ancestral legacies, and the film's commentary on colonialism and cultural appropriation.
As they dissect pivotal scenes, including the vibrant juke joint and the haunting climax, they emphasize the film's ability to blend horror with deeper societal issues. The episode wraps up with thoughts on the film's ending and the characters' journeys, leaving listeners eager to share their own perspectives on this thought-provoking work.
0:00 Intro and overview of "Sinners"
5:00 Overall thoughts on the film
12:24 The role of music in the film
19:47 Smoke and Stack and the role of vulnerability in male relationships
30: Race, passing, cultural appropriation, and colonization
40:40 Was Ernie Barnes' Sugar Shack an inspiration for key scenes?
48:35 Climax and Midcredit thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Will (00:00):
Foreign
(00:14):
this is seen a Nerd Podcast presents Blerd Trek. I'm
your host, Will Polk and thank you so much for joining
us tonight as we're going to get into a spoiler cast of
Sinners. That's right, we're talking about the new film that
everyone is talking about. It is in the Zeitgeist.
But with me tonight on this very special
edition of Scene N Presents Blerd Trek is
(00:34):
my wife, Sharlini Thank you so much for
joining me. She was so pumped about this movie.
She did came to you this morning. She's Will will, can we do
a show about this? And I was like, of course.
So I thank you for. So
welcome back to the podcast. You joined us on our Scene N Nerd. A few years
ago we were talking about I believe one of the Star wars movies, I think
Rise of the Skywalker. But yeah, but, but
(00:57):
welcome back.
>> Sharlini (00:59):
Yeah, happy to be here. Yeah, we saw
Sinners last night and my head was full of
thoughts and you know, as always, I had like all these vivid
crazy dreams and I woke up in the morning and I am the
morning person. Will is the later
riser, shall we say. And I woke up in the morning and
I had all this time to churn through
multiple themes that I was thinking about with Sinners.
(01:21):
And when Will woke up, I was like, will, Will. Okay, I want to talk about
these themes. I want to talk about, da, da, da. So Will was like,
okay, let's, let's do a show about it. So here we are.
>> Will (01:31):
Yeah, yeah. So like I said, we
are. This is a, this is a spoiler
filled podcast. So I'm going to give you so.
>> Sharlini (01:39):
Many spoilers, lots of spoilers. I, I don't, I
can't talk without spoilers.
>> Will (01:43):
So yeah, yeah, and at this point,
yeah, this is, this is a spoiler filled podcast.
So if you haven't seen the film,
jump off now, go watch it and
then come back. Listen to our, listen to
our thoughts on, on the movie. So with
that, your last spoiler warning, let's jump, let's jump
(02:04):
right in. So again we are talking about, the
movie Sinners This is a
spoiler review and
just get a little quick little basic overview. I'm
reading from the IMDb database.
but of course the IMDb summary is the following.
Trying to leave their troubled lives behind, twin
(02:24):
brothers return to their hometown to start
again, only to discover that an even, even
greater evil is waiting to welcome them back.
So that's the IMDb database,
summary of the film of course, the film is directed by
Ryan Coogler. It stars Michael B. Jordan, Miles
Canton who is his first feature
(02:45):
film role.
>> Sharlini (02:45):
He's phenomenal. Phenomenal.
>> Will (02:48):
Yeah, yeah. Delroy, Lindo Haley,
Steinfeld is also in it.
Lusaka who Many folks probably recognize her if
you've seen Loki. seasons one and two. She's been in the MCU.
And Jack O'Connell, and also Jamie Lawson plus many
many other folks. this is a period piece film
set in 191932 Clark's
(03:08):
Clarksdale, Mississippi. The film is
scored by Ludwig Goranson
who who is a frequent collaborator with Ryan
Coogler. Star wars fans will know
loved it from the Mandalorian. He scores that
show. And and the brilliant costume
designs which we'll get into some here in our spoiler cast is by
Ruthie Carter who is an Oscar winner and
(03:30):
had to both of us had the opportunity to see her
Oscar winning designs here locally at the North
Carolina Museum of Art.
>> Sharlini (03:38):
Yeah, our art museum, our North Carolina Museum of
Art is fantastic. We're long term members, we love
it. And they had a traveling
exhibit when Ruthie
won her Oscar for costume
design and Is that right Will? Is that the
right award? Yeah. And it was
amazing. It delved into
(03:59):
all you know and
I'm a person who crafts, I sew, I'm
really into thinking about costumes and
design. It was just such an incredible display of
all her work, all the details
that went into it, all the thoughtful planning
and you could see that, you could see that
(04:20):
thoughtfulness and detail oriented approach.
Every single detail of the costumes in this
movie. It just took you right back into that
period.
>> Will (04:29):
Yeah, yeah. It's amazing, amazing stuff.
And, and of course she is a frequent collaborator with, with
Ryan. Of course she's done both black Panther
films, both the original and also Wakanda Forever.
But Charlie.
>> Sharlini (04:43):
Yeah.
>> Will (04:43):
Tell me as we get started here, just give me your overall thoughts
about the film.
>> Sharlini (04:48):
So the first thing I thought is
it is a disservice to call this a horror movie.
The horror part really
complements like so many complex
themes that this movie just so beautifully
weaves together. Right. So it takes place as well
said in the 1930s what's
happening nationally. It's the era of the
(05:10):
robber barons. It's the era of people getting rich from
coal and, and railroads and steel.
It's the era of people, it's Post World War I
it's, Prohibition, and it's,
You know, culturally. I think this movie
explores those themes from the lens
of the South. Right. The black South. And
(05:31):
at the time it's still segregated. So the movie
also gets into so many themes that I found
so interesting about, that
era, post Civil War, but still
segregation, post Reconstruction, and
finding joy, finding, beauty,
finding love, finding tenderness, finding happiness
(05:51):
in, In the midst of this
segregated world that people live in. It also gets
into, the legacies of
our ancestors that we carry with us. And I thought this movie
was so interesting because you have. Obviously the movie
centered around, you know, the twin brothers who
come back, but there's also kind of a
subplot, that goes back to the Chinese
(06:14):
immigrant cultural experience.
And there's. There's just a lot
in there to unpack, so. So
get me back on track, Will.
>> Will (06:24):
Oh, no, no, no. That. That's. That's great.
>> Sharlini (06:27):
You know, it talks about colonialism. It talks about like.
>> Will (06:30):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (06:30):
the lens through people view
black society at the time as well
as the lens, through how people view themselves. And the thing I
loved about it, and then it's also the interplay of,
you know, music and art and religion
and the. The new religion. I say
relatively new. Right. Christianity in the
(06:51):
south versus these
deeply embedded spiritual
practices that live on in your DNA,
even if you don't realize that,
you know, predominantly the African American
culture. But also, as I mentioned a little bit, the
subplot, alludes to the Chinese immigrant and the
Asian immigrant culture as well. So I found it super
(07:13):
fascinating. I found that the vampire
horror plot line was almost complementary,
but not really the. The.
The main fascination of the movie for me.
>> Will (07:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I completely agree
with, you know, with that. And you know, I think also for me,
as far as this overall thoughts, you. I. I had heard about this
film, saw the trailer. It was definitely, one of
the films that I wanted to see. 2025,
profiled it on our main show
and we. As far as, the top films coming out this year
and also during, Black History Month, we had a feature
(07:49):
on our main show with my host Sarah
Belmont, where we have profiled, during Black History Month,
Black filmmakers during Women. Women's History
Month, very prominent stories, for Women History Month.
But, we, you know, for 2025,
we profiled this one in particular as far as one of
the films that's coming out and go. And if y'all drop it in the
chat as far as the in the, in the comments before you can
(08:12):
see it, our list of other films
for 2025. But for me, this film, it
was, I heard it was a vampire movie. When I saw
the trailer, it was
a, you know, I was like, oh, this looks really, really
good. But it did not, it did not give
you the, the level of depth that we're going to get into
tonight as far as some of the themes talked about.
(08:34):
also the big thing that I think
enough that really, that really struck to me about
this film is how much music in
and of itself was a character. You had the people,
but music itself was a character. And, and,
and the score and every, you know, and
the the utilization of music and,
(08:56):
and to pull together the story. This, this
film. Yes, it is a, yes, it is a black
film as far as having a black director, predominantly
black cast, but also it's a four
quadrant film because everybody can
get something out of it.
>> Sharlini (09:11):
Yep.
>> Will (09:12):
You know, because the, the, and we'll get into the,
the, the, the Irish character, the
vampire, who's played by Jack O'Connell. You know,
there's that backstory there, there is the whole
course, you know, the storytelling elements of, you know,
telling story through song, telling story through
visual medium. That Ryan Coogler now is five for five. I
mean, quite frankly, between from Fruitvale to now.
(09:35):
The other thing too, and then we'll get into some specific
points of the film is that this was an original story,
this was not an ip because prior to this,
Ryan, of course, you know, we know his work from the
mcu. Of course he also did
Creed, which is again being based off the
IP of Rocky. But this was a
independent story that he came up and
(09:57):
he showed that he can not only
helm a, a feature film from
an original product, but really tell an amazing
story as with, you know, with, and
construct an amazing story writing and directing.
>> Sharlini (10:11):
Yeah, yeah. I do want to say though, it was, yes, it was a completely
independent story. It was a story that was really well
told. But I want to get back to your point about music being a character
in this movie. There is so
much through this movie that speaks to, and
I said this in my kind of rambling, excited intro in the
beginning, there's so much that speaks to
(10:32):
the DNA of music that we don't even
realize we carry with us. Right. So in the case
of. I'll start with the Irish or the
Highland Scottish, Irish vampires, that, you know, the
Highland dancing, that Celtic music
that folk, you know, the folk gathering.
I was, honored enough to be a guest of
my sisters at a wedding with, in the
(10:55):
uk, people with Irish
ancestry. And they had what's called a ceilidh. A
ceilidh is a traditional Irish folk dance. So we all learned
the steps and we all did it right. So that, that is
that thread of, And it was
beautiful. Everybody dances in a circle. It's joyous,
it's celebratory and it's in the DNA
like it's just passed down generation to generation.
(11:17):
Children grew up. And you know, this is true of cultures all around
the world. Greek culture has folk dancing.
Pretty much any culture you go to there
is. Dance is a sort of
ritual and it's a way that connects
you to your ancestors, to your beliefs, to
your spirituality. and so I started
with the, the Irish highland
(11:40):
dancing. And I think it's almost a cliche to talk about
how much music, African
music and spirituality
have influenced music through today. And
African American music, the spirituals, the,
the songs that people enslaved,
people sang, you know, those threads
(12:01):
come from those ancient rhythms in your
DNA. They, they give you strength, they give you
spirit, they give you, they, they have a power.
So I, I think that to
me was very evident. And if I, if I may, you
know, there's a scene. Do you want to talk about this
later?
>> Will (12:20):
Start. Let's start with the role of music. Because,
yes, it is a vampire story and we can go through, you
know.
>> Sharlini (12:25):
We don't have to necessarily.
>> Will (12:28):
I wanna. Let's. Yeah, I mean, we don't have to go chronological
with this film. Let's talk about the music.
>> Sharlini (12:33):
Yeah, it's a story about the transformative power of
music. Right. And there's. There's two threads here.
There is in the main character, Sammy,
preacher boy or one of the main characters,
you know, he, Yeah, there he is Preach, where
he comes from a
family where his father is the preacher
and he gets
(12:56):
pressure and advice to, to stick to church
music, to stick to spirituals, you know,
not, not that sinful music, but
the call of the ancestors
music is, is too strong for
him. But then I found myself thinking
that they are interwoven. You can't
separate one from the other. The
(13:18):
reason why African American
spiritual music is so moving is
because it carries with it so
many generations.
So many generations of knowledge, of culture, of
community, of power.
>> Will (13:34):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (13:35):
So I found that, you know.
>> Will (13:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole thing about music, I mean,
when the movie starts, I Mean, it starts to your point
about the spirituality and everything. It
starts with, you know,
Sammy showing up at his father's church and the Sunday
morning and it's the store, you know, the, you know,
hearing the children's choir singing, you know,
and. And. And. And so we.
(13:59):
We get that. And then also to your point about the cultural
aspects of it, because, The. The. With
the Irish. You know, with. With, The Irish
vampire. you know, there was the. The whole
Irish jig that was, going on
there. But the blending of the two.
The two. The. The. The cultures, the sim. The similarities,
(14:20):
I guess. Because, you know, again,
the, You know, whenever I
heard. Whenever. You know. Because earlier, you know, prior to
that scene, after everybody got bam.
You know, a lot of these folks got bitten by the vampires. We
had. We had the. We. We had a
very big musical fusion scene.
>> Sharlini (14:39):
To me, that was such a
powerful. Visually.
Musically, you know,
that was such a powerful scene, that
juke. Juke joint scene.
And yeah, I think maybe this is where you were going. You had the scene
where they're playing the blues, but then everything
revolves. And then you start hearing. Hearing
(15:00):
the drums, you start hearing chants. You start
hearing Chinese traditional music.
You start hearing, you know, different
musical genres. And it even goes into the future and you
start hearing music of today.
And it's just the way that scene was
woven together was. And there's no
vampire. This is before the vampires. Right.
>> Will (15:22):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (15:22):
And.
>> Will (15:23):
Right, right.
>> Sharlini (15:24):
Just that scene in itself was.
Just had so many stories
in it.
>> Will (15:30):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Yeah, that seemed to me. I, know
some. I have. You know, I think so.
So, you know, there. That. That when that
happened, I was. And we were seeing. Because
even at the beginning of the movie, we have the cultural
Africa songs and some, you know, some cuts to
it. And then, you know, when we get to that
(15:50):
big scene in the juke joint and we see
the evolution from the blues. Because the blues has
just really. It is the. It
is a. A cultural, you
know, foundation for rock and roll when you
think about it.
>> Sharlini (16:05):
Right. African rhythms.
>> Will (16:08):
And it's a bit.
>> Sharlini (16:09):
Not a musician, but I am a dancer, so.
>> Will (16:12):
Yeah. Yeah. So the blue is. You know, it's very
well documented how, you know, blues music.
Yeah, yeah, very. Yeah. how it has, you know, how it
influenced rock and roll. And then, of
course, you know, we think about, you know, Sammy, the. The blues
physician, Robert Johnson, and talk about Sammy's. You know,
we'll get to some of the spirituality of it too.
(16:33):
But, Robert Johnson,
you Know, with the sort of.
Sort of similar to Sammy, where Sammy's dad was like, you know, you can't play this
song, you know, this music with the devil and that kind of stuff. And
then, you know, Robert Johnson in his real life had, you know,
had struggled to like, like to
be getting noticed. And then he all of a sudden popped and people were
(16:53):
like thinking, oh, you know, he must have made a deal with the devil. And
then, you know, so again, to enter, you know, to
interwave. Interwoven the real life history
into this film, of. Of some of the themes
that, you know, Ryan was trying to like, you know,
illustrate with this, with many. All these
various themes in this film was really interesting. And then
(17:13):
also just the. The similar stories between like,
Irish immigrants and also African Americans as far as the.
The use of music to. To.
>> Sharlini (17:22):
To build community.
>> Will (17:23):
Yeah, build community. And also.
>> Sharlini (17:26):
Yeah. Your sorrow, your roots, your struggles,
your suffering. Yes.
>> Will (17:31):
Yeah. So all those things. Things are really
playing, you know, playing there, you
know, real interesting inner
woven dynamic between the two cultures that are,
that. That were really some of the subtext of this film that
were, you know, What I really liked about it was that this is a beat you
overhead. It was just organic to the story.
>> Sharlini (17:51):
Yes, but, but okay, can I, Can I digress
a little bit and I think into another
theme, though, but that dichotomy, that pull between kind
of like quote unquote, good church
music versus the sinful,
you know, all out,
you're fully embodied. You're fully
embracing sensuality. The rhythms,
(18:12):
the drumming that pull
also is. Oh, the good
music is what the colonialists and
the masters want you to follow and leave
the bad behind. Right. And that, that other
stuff, that's uncivilized.
>> Will (18:29):
Yeah, yeah, let's get it.
>> Sharlini (18:30):
That is another theme through this whole
movie is, you know, what is respectable.
you know, and I think with. With a twin. We haven't even talked about the twins. We
haven't talked about 20 minutes in.
Right? But. But the
twins present this veneer of respected,
quote, unquote, respectability. You know, they're dressed
(18:51):
well. They, you know, they carry themselves
like gentlemen and they, they have money, they
talk about fine Italian wine and whiskey
and, they want to have this classy
juke joint. Right, but it's a veneer
for, for the. Would you say
the rage, the anger, the. The kind
(19:11):
of, But also the quest, right, the quest
to establish yourself and celebrate.
Celebrate your community, celebrate your success, celebrate
your people, come back to your family
and your roots and.
>> Will (19:26):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (19:26):
I thought that was another theme. And then they have the whole backdrop.
The movie has this whole backdrop of. It's also the time of
the clan.
Right. So yeah this is all. And it all is so
seamlessly flows. We started by talking about the
music but the music also carries those
themes.
>> Will (19:44):
Yeah yeah. Let's. Let's talk about Smoking Stack, the two.
The two brothers. And and you know of course
there is the. The wonderful performance
by. By Michael B. Jordan
putting up this. This photo here of
just as we were as we started the podcast. Just want
to really get to Shalini's point about the.
(20:04):
The art, the. The costume design but
also how the story. But also I want to use
this, this photo, this image of the two
brothers to really flesh out
some of the things about them that really does
drive and propel the story forward.
So you know with Smoke and
Stack. So Smoke is the one with the blue
(20:27):
cap. And it really. And. And
it was. And this was the use of costuming to
also tell the story because
he is the more cool, the more
business thinking one. He was the one
who met with the gentleman Declans
the At the time m. The owner of the.
Of the just the building there
(20:50):
that they. They want to turn it to. To the juke
joint from their exploits in Chicago which is a
whole nother story we can get into as far as
them working with the gangsters and also to your point
about building a community. And and the line that sticks out to me
in the film is whenever. Whenever they do
come back home and they. They're putting together everyone to
(21:10):
build this juke joint. They were
talk when seeing this is
sharecroppers and you know and this, this is something for me that you know
that resonate resonated with this film because
my. My ass. My great great grandmother would tell
me stories about picking cotton in the 30s and 20s and
30s and so.
>> Sharlini (21:29):
You know, so seeing that your family actually can
I say not to digress too much but your mom told me this.
Your mom's family actually fled South
Carolina because
the Per. I guess
the person who owned the land.
>> Will (21:45):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (21:46):
Demanding you know didn't pay them. And then your was
a great grandfather or your grand.
>> Will (21:51):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (21:51):
Your great grandfather demanded his fair share.
>> Will (21:54):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (21:54):
From Picking cotton.
>> Will (21:56):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (21:56):
And they were threatened with being lynched. So they actually fled
for their lives from South Carolina to North
Carolina.
>> Will (22:02):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (22:03):
But that long ago. This
is. I was thinking about this. Right. This is not that
long ago.
>> Will (22:09):
Yeah. Yeah. and that's the thing too, as
I think about that line, that resonates because with
that where they talk about the plant, the.
The cotton fields and stuff and then.
And the. When they. They left, they
were part of the first wave of migration from the south to the
north. And the brothers were.
And they got wrapped up with the Capone gang.
(22:32):
And But one of the things that
smoked, talked to. To preacher boy,
who's also. Sammy is.
Who's their cousin, is that, Chicago
was just basically plantation with
skyscrapers and you know, so
it was, you know, that
struggle and the hard work and you know, even though, you know,
(22:54):
you thought going to the north was going to like, get you out of
this. This thing that you thought that
this environment you had in the south, there were still things
in the north that were just as, Just as daunting,
you know, for, For. For the two brothers. But
the cool thing about their story too is, you know,
so of course they, you know, they, they do go to north, they do
(23:15):
come, they do become part of the gang. But then they
also, like we learned that, to.
Whenever they were setting up the juke joint, you know, they had this
truck that was like, hidden in the. In
on the path. And the thing about that truck, it
was, you know, it was all, you know, you brought up the, you know, the fine
wines and the, you know, Irish, the beer and that
kind of stuff. Well, they stole all that stuff from the, from the
(23:37):
gangsters and then in the mob. And the mob were like, you
know, they were like. The mob war was, you know, they were pointing
fingers at each other. But at least these two brothers who
actually were the ones who stole it, which I thought was just, you know, really,
you know, gets through there. Yeah, gets to their.
Gets to them. Their, Their story. And they're smart and their
savviness. But Stack is the, you
(23:58):
know, so, you know, so Smoke is the,
the rational one. You know, got the blue hat. Stack is the one with the
red hat. And the, The.
The guy with the gift of Gap, he could like, really talk
his way through a situation. He was very
smooth. And so, you know, so those two
brothers. And I think the thing that. One of the things you talked about this
(24:18):
morning, I'll hand it off to you, is that the relationships
that these brothers had with themselves, but also with
the friends and families in the community. So I'll let you,
>> Sharlini (24:27):
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, one
of the things I've really, have come to appreciate
and you know, you see this in Black Panther. You see this in Wakanda
forever. What I've come to appreciate in the way Ryan Coogler
depicts relationships is the
vulnerability. It's the vulnerability
and the tenderness
that I think. You know, I don't want to speak for you,
(24:50):
but I think you don't often see black men
depicted, in that way of, you know. Again,
this is a spoiler review, right? So there is a. There
is a loss of a baby. There's a loss of a child.
That grief, that loss. There is a
tenderness of coming back to women
that you love and. And vulnerably
(25:10):
saying, I love you, I need you.
And there are strong women who are
independent, who are not waiting on their man,
but they, you know, they're supportive, and they
provide that love. And to see that expressed
in a vulnerable way where it's not
macho, it's not. It's realistic
(25:30):
and is really how so
many people have tender, open,
honest relationships that you don't always see
depicted. So, again, we're very far from talking about
the horror movie theme here, but I really
appreciated that even though there
were just a few scenes here and there, that was really the underpinnings of
the movie. Right. They were like these hardened guys who
(25:53):
cheated the mob, but at the end of the
day, they were vulnerable. They had a lot
of love to give. They had a lot of tenderness.
They. They had joy. They had,
You know, they had great affection for their cousin. They
mentored him. They. They what? They looked
out for him. They, you know, sacrificed a
lot for him. And
(26:15):
the, you know, the. The coming
back to the women, too, you know, that
complexity of, The one brother want, you
know, chose the path of, well, I'm just gonna
save you, and the other brother
chose the path of, you know, so I'm gonna
save you and have nothing to do with you, and I'm gonna abandon you
because it's better for you because it's too dangerous to be associated with
(26:37):
me. Right. That. But then coming back to that
vulnerability to say, no, no, I love you and I need
you, I thought was very powerful and very
powerfully depicted.
>> Will (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that. That definitely was. I mean,
that was, the. The relationships that they
did have. And even. And even, Even Sammy.
>> Sharlini (26:56):
Even Sammy. Right, that.
>> Will (26:58):
Yeah. With, With the relationship that he had
with, with Pearl. you know, but think about
the point.
>> Sharlini (27:05):
He's younger, so for him, it's first
love.
>> Will (27:09):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (27:09):
But I think it also goes, you know, as we're talking
about relationships, you could see it's not
spoken out loud, but you can see the inner
struggle for the relationship he has with his
father. M. And coming back to the
music, right? The music is calling him. His
gift is calling him in a different direction.
(27:29):
His gift of powerful, powerful music,
powerful song. But you can see that
conflict of where he wants to do the right thing
as the preacher's son and he wants to honor that
relationship with his father. And
that is also depicted in such a
subtle way. It's not know. It's not in your face.
And I think that's the thing that struck me
(27:51):
about the romantic relationships
as well.
>> Will (27:56):
Yeah, yeah, that was definitely, definitely just.
>> Sharlini (27:59):
Very matter of fact. This is, you know.
>> Will (28:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But But you're right to that
point too. As far as the two brothers and just they're in a relationship, their,
their friendships and stuff with people in the town.
They you know, and something you also
raised with the other
group, the Chinese for example who were there and just
the inner interplay with them. And we'll, we'll put a pin in that
(28:22):
because I do want to talk about race and passing and some of
the other things here here in a minute. But
But the other character that was very
Prominent and I thought sold every scene that he was
in was ah, Delta Slim who was a
ah. Delro Lindo's character and the
friendship that you know the relationship
he had with. With the two brothers and
(28:44):
you know whenever they, Whenever they first
go to the train
station there in. In town as they're trying
to pull together the people for their, for their juke joint.
And, and of course you know they you know, of course we do
see the. How powerful Sammy
is as far as his musical acumen. But we first, when we
(29:05):
first introduced the Delta Slim as he's sitting there playing
harmonica and, and. And
then, and then of course he and Stack have
their, their. Their discussions about you
know, as far as the negotiation. And that was another cool thing
too was just the. As far as the interpersonal relationship
among people in the town. And that's why I thought about the Chinese
(29:26):
family as well who run the shop whenever they were setting
up the. The juke joint, the
negotiations of people and interaction with
the. The commerce that was going you know there's.
That was going forth during this time
period because They you know, the bar, the barter, the
back and forth negotiating price
(29:46):
barter just you know, you know that the economy
of. Of of the. Of the tile time and
town I think was another little small
detail. But those, you know, but to me as someone,
when I, like when I, When I get, those are the types of things that helped me get
immersed into the film because it gave it a
groundedness.
>> Sharlini (30:04):
Yeah. And that's why I say, I think, you know, this is not even a horror
movie. The vampire plot was almost secondary to the whole
movie.
>> Will (30:11):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (30:11):
Yeah.
>> Will (30:12):
Because I want to do the thing. I was like, I heard the first half's about
setup and then the second half's about the vampire piece. But even.
>> Sharlini (30:17):
But, but no, I don't know. It's very
seamless. Yeah. Should we talk about, you know
what. Should we talk. Should we. Should we talk about the passing,
the. The reason? Yeah.
>> Will (30:27):
Yeah. I think this is a good place given that we're. We're talking about relationships and
stuff, because, yeah, Haley Steinfeld's character, she, you
know, she. We learned that, she did,
have a, black father, or I guess
half.
>> Sharlini (30:40):
Her daddy was half white or something.
>> Will (30:42):
Half white, yeah. Yeah. And of course, you know, during that time period, it
was still, you know, again, we're. We're talking about Jim Crow
South. So, you know, miscegenation laws are still in a place
and the one drop rule is still very,
very prominent. And to your point about, the relationships
that, you know, Stack was like, look, you know, it's
not safe for you to be here with
(31:02):
me. But clearly they, you know, they had a prior relationship, but
then they left. She waited for him, but, you know,
she did move on and she. She did marry a white, you know, married
into a white family and stuff. And there was. There was a lot of
background with that too, as far as like,
you know, the. The brothers
not, you know, paying their respects, but, you know, due to
(31:23):
the death of her mother, you know, that was a little tension
point. Yeah.
>> Sharlini (31:27):
To me, you know, it struck me.
So that whole relationship and that
whole storyline, of
her, you know, Mary, I think was her name. Mary
Passed, struck, me. There was actually
a pretty prominent character, so Mr.
Carnegie, the Mr.
Carnegie's librarian.
(31:49):
She was a, A woman named Belle da
Costa Green. And she
was a rare woman in the time
of male antique dealers. She went
to. She went to Europe and
she negotiated to procure
the best artworks for Mr.
Carnegie. And she was,
(32:11):
you know, the best of them all. And
after her passing, it
was. It was, ah, revealed
or it was found that she was actually a black
woman who passed as white her entire life
and rose to prominence. She was Running. She was given
responsibility to run the library and to go acquire pieces
of art with huge budget.
(32:34):
So watching that, you know, watching
the movie yesterday, watching Sinners and how the,
the topic of race and light skinned people
passing as white were handled
reminded me of that book that I had read. It's
called the Librarian.
Fascinating. And yeah, fascinating
both into, into the world of art and
(32:56):
antiques and that same time period of you know, the
1920s and 30s as well as
race relations and passing as
white. So.
>> Will (33:06):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean you know that. But that was a very,
again it was just a very important point I think
that again not be, you know, that they, that they.
That was very important to the story. Not only
to you know, with Stack and
Mary's relationship, but also as we do
get into that whenever they do open up Club Juke,
(33:28):
which is the name of the juke joint. and,
and, and whenever we do
M. You know, we do see the, the first
round of the vampire show up. you know that
was that was part
of, you know. Or is she going to invite all these, you know, the,
the you know, she was, you know, it was given her
(33:48):
passing and then we had these three white people show up
at the, at the place. It was sort of like. Yes.
Where they go. It was know they were like
wait.
>> Sharlini (33:58):
Can, can I correct, can I go back and correct myself a little
bit? I got my robber barons mixed up.
Yeah, so I got my robber barons mixed up. I
apologize. So Belda Costa Green was
The librarian for Mr. J.P.
morgan.
>> Will (34:12):
Oh, okay.
>> Sharlini (34:13):
Yeah, for Mr. M. J.P. morgan. And the book is called
the Personal Librarian by Marie Benedict
and Victoria Christopher Murray. So it
was Mr. Morgan. Yes.
>> Will (34:24):
Okay. Okay.
>> Sharlini (34:25):
Sorry about that.
>> Will (34:25):
Yeah, no, no, no worries, no worries. but yeah, I
mean to that point though, about
you know, barons and passing and
also just thinking about that, that
time period when you still had the
JP Morgans and the, you know, we know
we're not too far from that. The Carnegie's. You
know, we're not, we're not too far from the Gilded Age. And you know that's
(34:48):
also very, you know took it to another piece of literature about that time, the
Great Gatsby. let's
talk. And also just the larger point of the world
too because the two
brothers didn't mention this before. They were also war veterans from the
First World War.
>> Sharlini (35:04):
Yes.
>> Will (35:04):
And another thing that you, you talked about and, and something
I wanted to bring up too as we,
we you know, think about the, the
vampires, as we. It was. It's because we were really getting into
the vampire portion of the film. is this
colonialism and,
And. And, you know, with the
Irish and the British, you know, there's that history of,
(35:26):
you know, the British going, you know, of course
there's the colonialism and stuff that happened with Africa,
but also how Britain and Ireland have had that
very contentious relationship and a lot of Irish had to, you know, move
out from, you know, because of that, it came to the
States. So. Yeah. So
pick up on that. I want you to pick up all your thoughts on those.
>> Sharlini (35:46):
It's interesting how, you know, the vision that the
vampires offered was
equality and everyone being treated the
same and, you know, they don't
segregate and, you know,
and that. That's what they were trying to use to
lure people. They said, why don't you come be with
(36:06):
us? And we, you know, we're all one
people coming back to that whole idea of
community and belonging. But the
theme. And I feel, like I'm circling back to
the music, the dancing, the rituals,
the themes of colonial, the. The religion, you know,
the pressure to be that. That. The pressure
(36:27):
to. To, you know, play the good music, to
be a good Kristian, you know, to adopt the
religion of the colonizers.
is a very powerful theme
that runs through the entire movie and
is really brilliantly woven in.
And you know, the. The
(36:48):
fact, that the old ways, there are still
people who remember and carry on the old
ways. The. The girlfriend of,
Is it Dax? Girlfriend.
Will. The one who
figures out about the vampires.
>> Will (37:04):
Oh, smokes. Smoke's girlfriend.
>> Sharlini (37:06):
Girlfriend. Smokes. Girlfriend that figures out about the, you
know, the. The old ways. And she figures out what's really
happening and she makes a magical
amulet that she believes and Stack believes keeps
themselves. Keeps him safe. M.
Right. They allude to that quite a bit.
And I, you
know, I know that there's
(37:28):
still superstitions, there's still
that knowledge that,
continues. Right. Even through the efforts of
colonialism to. To stamp it out. And I
thought that was also very beautifully and brilliantly depicted
throughout the movie.
>> Will (37:44):
Totally, totally. Yeah, that. Yeah, that the,
That was definitely, brought
woven throughout the movie. And another thing about colonialism too,
and something we were talking about music and the collectiveness and
stuff and thinking about too, with some of the
discourse lately, about this film
itself. Take it out of the film, but listen to the real world and
about Ryan Coogler being able
(38:06):
to, you know, get the ownership rights of. To
this film.
>> Sharlini (38:09):
Yeah.
>> Will (38:10):
After 25 years and,
and thinking about, again, historic context of the
blues and how cultural
appropriation happens and,
and, you know, to your point about, you know,
in the religious context, it's like the good music versus
the, you know, the, the bad music.
>> Sharlini (38:29):
You know, claiming the space. Right. Claiming the
joyful space to celebrate, to play
music, to be loud, to be happy,
to have relationships,
to all those, were not things that
were allowed.
>> Will (38:45):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (38:45):
Under colonialism and slavery. So just
the fact of, coming back to the south and opening a
juke joint where people can come, you can dance, you can
stamp your feet, you can sing, you can make
love, you could, you know.
>> Will (38:58):
Yeah. Yeah. Raise hell on. On Saturday
and be saintly on Sunday. That
was, yeah, that was the theme of the juke joy. But also it
was a safe place because.
Yeah, because, you know, think again. You worked hard in the
field, you, you know, and everything, and then
you had this safe place to go to, to just
(39:19):
be free and, and all. And then. But,
you know, but, you know, I think about the vampires when you think about
vampirism, and this is what I think was a fresh take on
vampirism. I thought this film had. That
takes it from just your typical vampire film to
another is, you know, we always think, you know,
with vampires, you know,
you're, you know, the bite and,
(39:42):
you know, we saw the typical things as far as, you know, you can't
kill them and they come, they come back and that kind of stuff.
>> Sharlini (39:48):
They're scared of garlic and. Yeah, yeah.
>> Will (39:51):
All the traditional beats were there. But I think the,
the, the. The underlying
cultural appropriation of that. The, the
belonging. I wanted to be one. You know, I
think on the one hand it seems very innocuous,
but on the other hand it's just like they're just going to
just take everything about you and just suck it all out.
>> Sharlini (40:10):
Of you and assimilate. Right.
>> Will (40:12):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (40:13):
Yes.
>> Will (40:13):
And I think. And I think that's what made the Vulture, that's
what made this film more Take it to the next
level than just a basic vampire. Vampire
movie.
>> Sharlini (40:23):
Yes. So shall we. Should we
close by? We've been going on for quite a bit longer.
>> Will (40:30):
We plan to talk 40 minutes here we are 40. But I think I'm enjoying
it. So. Yeah.
>> Sharlini (40:35):
Should we, you know, I don't know if you had other things on your
list, but should we close by? Coming back to the. Just
the visual richness of this film. We started out talking about
costumes. Costumes. Yeah. We referenced
a couple of times the music. We've
referenced the Juke joint. And the
way, you know, the costuming.
>> Will (40:54):
The.
>> Sharlini (40:54):
The way. Yes, there you go. You kind of put it up
before I said it, but when I was
watching that scene and listening to the music
of in the juke joint, where they had the live
music playing and everyone's dancing,
it immediately reminded me of that
painting, Will, that you had just up. Can you bring it back? It's Sugar
Shack by Ernie Barnes, by Ernest Barnes, who's
(41:17):
actually a native of Durham, North
Carolina. So the interesting thing, Sugar
Shack was painted a little later in the 70s,
but the composition, the way this scene is
composed, just even the backdrop, the
wooden floors, you know, the people,
the costuming, everything about
that juke joint scene just reminded me
(41:39):
so much, particularly of this painting. And I just
wonder if there was a intended or a
subconscious homage to Ernie Barnes
and his work depicting joy
of music and dance and celebration, which,
again, is the theme that we've, I think, talked about quite a lot
in that movie. And just. I just. In
(42:00):
that moment, I just felt so immersed and.
>> Will (42:03):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (42:04):
That it just really struck me. Right. The. The
importance of continuing to depict joy and
celebration and relationships and
authenticity.
>> Will (42:13):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and
I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, while I was
watching the film and I know after we finished last night, we
didn't think of it at the time, but know, there are those.
Those. Those images and. And things that are
just that, Resonate. That resonate with you. I mean,
many people probably are familiar with, you know, who
(42:34):
have seen the. The. The. The, painting Sugar Shack.
it was on the show Good Times.
and it was.
>> Sharlini (42:42):
It was a Marvin Gay album cover too.
>> Will (42:44):
It was so, you know, so there have been,
you know, things, you know, but, other places where people
may have seen it didn't even realize it, but, you know. But I do
completely agree with you that I think that
whole. That the. The. The scene
that then the shot that Ryan and his
director, you know, was thinking of
whether subconsciously or consciously was a
(43:07):
Sugar Shack. because it just really. That it was just
visually was there. I could just probably hear him like, telling his director
photography. He's like, remember, have you ever seen pulling up Sugar
Shack on their phone or whatever? Yeah. Or when they were doing
storyboards, when they were planning this film. I. I can imagine that was part
of their discussions whenever they were like, how are we going to. How we're gonna. How are
we going to set up this film or set up this scene? And that was.
That that is totally, totally the. Totally the
(43:29):
inspiration, for it. Clearly
clear as day. but yeah, the visual point, like
I said, you know, we did talk about the costume and stuff. you
know, spot on period. You know,
costuming. there was also I know
one other thing too, that two things I wanted to
hit before we drop, is the Chocotaw Indians
and their, their warnings to
(43:52):
the clan people. Because again,
you know, whenever Jack, Jack,
O'Connell, his character, but his character's name was Remick. you know,
he, you know, thinking back to the
appropriation discussion that we had a few minutes ago, and I think, you
know, and I think the context there
was. They were trying to like, you know, take
over the. The Indian, the Native American tribe.
(44:15):
And they only had them in this, in the film for just a very
short part at a time. But they, you know, but they
clearly forced him out because whenever he first shows up at
the. At the two clan members
house.
>> Sharlini (44:27):
Yeah.
>> Will (44:27):
you know, he was all scarred, beaten and stuff because
they had forced, you know, they figured it out and got him out of
there. And so I bring that up
because, you know, they, they, you
know, whenever they showed up
at the door, they tried to warn those
people.
>> Sharlini (44:45):
Well, I'm gonna say two things. I'm m gonna say
colonialism again and I'm gonna say
dismissal of traditional
indigenous knowledge, which is another
theme. You know, at the end of the day it was that traditional
indigenous knowledge and the community that
saved them. and with the Choctaw Indians
and you know, showing up to the Klansmen, the, the
(45:07):
white people's house, they were greeted with
suspicion and they were turned. Well, they
turned away because it was starting to get dark. Right. So. Yeah,
but again it, it car. Again, it's very subtle. It's a
very short scene.
>> Will (45:20):
Yep.
>> Sharlini (45:21):
But it echoes those themes and which is again
why this movie is so brilliant and so multi
layered.
>> Will (45:27):
Yeah, yeah. So there, there was that piece and
then m. The you know, the second
piece. Related. I'm
blanking on it now, but I'll come back to me.
Oh yeah, it was just the, the costuming of.
You know, we talked about that. but also the relationship between
the brothers. Because it really ties to the end of the film.
(45:50):
because at the end of the day even. Well,
yeah, there was relationship with the brothers. And also one of the
things you asked me last night, we were talking about, you know,
about the why. How did the, you know,
what was keeping the vampires out. And the
only way they were finally able to get in. And this is another cool thing that
I thought was really great about how they took things
(46:10):
about from the different path from
some vampire films is they had to be
invited in. They could not. You know, every time
they were. They came to the.
>> Sharlini (46:20):
That's right. That's a traditional vampire
lore. You have to.
>> Will (46:25):
Have to invite them in.
>> Sharlini (46:26):
You have to ask them in. They cannot enter without
being invited. Yes. Yeah, but yeah, like the
original Dracula, movie. Yes.
>> Will (46:33):
Yeah. And the thing that they were trying to work around that
was whenever, June I think it was. I think her name
was Grace Troy, I believe was the, the mom
of.
>> Sharlini (46:42):
Oh yes, the husband.
>> Will (46:44):
The husband got. Was trying to go to town to
save their daughter. Got bitten. And
then, you know, because of her, you know,
they were using her to like and to.
To basically break down the defenses and they were able to
briefly to get into the. Into the, into the.
Into the club Duke.
but yeah, so that, you know, there was that piece and then
(47:06):
the last two points I'll make and then we can, we can close
is the relationship with the brothers and how it just sort of
sets things up for the end because
the You know,
Stack was bitten because he
did have the relationship. You know, they were, you know, the. Earlier
in the film Mary, left
and she encountered
(47:29):
Remic, and the other two vampires. And of course they,
they were able to. They bit her and
she she. She comes back to the, to the, to the place
and then she in turn bites
Stack because of their, their relationship.
>> Sharlini (47:43):
And, and she's invited in by.
>> Will (47:45):
And she's invited in because. Yeah.
>> Sharlini (47:47):
Yes, because she. Yeah.
>> Will (47:50):
Bamboo tie that back to what we were just. Yeah,
yeah, to tie it back to what we were just talking about. The vampires
being invited in. So that's how they, that's how they were able to
get into the house, into the club Juke.
but the, you know, the, the relationship
between the brothers, at the end of the day they're so protective of one
another and, and you
know, we learn that
(48:14):
Smoke could not kill Stack,
you know, after after they figure out.
>> Sharlini (48:21):
Major, major spoiler. Yeah.
>> Will (48:23):
Well, if you're with us by now you've watched the film, so
I can't help it if you like we warned you at the beginning
right there.
>> Sharlini (48:31):
Yes. Yeah.
>> Will (48:33):
kept it up for the whole time.
but, but, yeah, but you know, but of course
we do. You know, you know, we begin to film
with Sammy. We end the film with Sammy you
know, we get the beginning there with Sammy at the beginning, you know, showing up
to church. Sammy, figures out, you know,
Sammy kills Remic. you know,
(48:54):
he's, you know, the very instrument that his
father told him not to use, you
know, to be that the devil's instrument ended up being the thing
that saves him. The, the music and the, and
the, the silver banjo.
and, and, and then,
you know, Smoke takes out, you
(49:15):
know, the clan does show up. Because that was sort of the, you know,
that was one of the things that we learned the
motivations about, you know, the truth about the, the
building that the club Juke was, was on.
And then fast forward to,
you know, Smoke does take
out the clan, Smoke passes away, he goes to the
(49:35):
afterlife because again, he was
free to be with,
What, was her name? I can't remember her name. But,
not Mary, the other.
>> Sharlini (49:48):
Yes, yes. I can't remember any.
>> Will (49:50):
Yeah, the, the, the, the
princess. Yeah. and,
but we get. So as we all know, we get to
the mid credit and we, we talked about this last night and I've had some
time to think about it. I want to hear, hear what your thoughts are now.
And we'll close. you know, Stack and Mary show
up at Prlene's and you know, and Sammy, you know,
(50:11):
Sammy grows up and he creates, you know, he
goes on to have a, he leaves town. He has
a wonderful career. Just a little cameo there by a
buddy guy who plays the older Sammy.
And at ah, ah, Pearline's and,
and Stack and Mary
show up, so.
>> Sharlini (50:31):
And 90s
outfits, which is also just amazing period
costuming. I was like, oh, I, we actually
wore those things.
>> Will (50:41):
Yeah. 1992. So it's like what, 70
years?
>> Sharlini (50:45):
Yep.
>> Will (50:46):
Yeah, later, I guess. Yeah.
60 years later. Yeah, 60 years later. Yeah. Yeah, my
bad. Yeah, we're like, yeah, my bad.
but, at first I was like, you
know, it felt like it was the return
of the King. Multiple endings.
But you know, the conversation that they had
(51:08):
there. I'm glad they, Now that I. Eventually the
ending works for me because at the end of the day,
Stack has the proposition.
You could have everlasting life and
immortality if you just become a
vampire.
>> Sharlini (51:23):
Uh-huh.
>> Will (51:23):
And Sammy says no because, you know, at that point, you know,
because, you know, Stack sniffs over, you know, he knows death is
imminent for, for, for Sammy because he smells
death around him.
>> Sharlini (51:33):
Yeah.
>> Will (51:33):
And he offers him that. And I just thought,
to me, you know, the more I thought about it, that was like the
perfect ending to this, film where Sammy's like,
I've lived a full life. I'm. I'm content
with what I have. So.
No, I don't want, I don't, I don't want your offer.
That, to me, that's. That, to me, that mid credit.
>> Sharlini (51:53):
Yeah. Ah, I have to think about this one a little bit more because
I, I thought they should have just ended it
where it ended without the epilogue
and maybe had, you know, the epo, the
epilogue be Sammy, you
know, at 75. But yeah, I don't know, I'll have
to think about it. That's a fresh. I hadn't thought about that perspective.
>> Will (52:14):
Yeah, Yeah, I just, I just thought about this.
>> Sharlini (52:16):
He has a choice and he rejects it.
>> Will (52:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Because he's like, I've had a full life. I, I, achieved
everything I wanted. And, and, and that was a
very, you know.
>> Sharlini (52:25):
All right, this is way past my bedtime.
I've. I know we talk about this all night, but it
is way past my bedtime.
>> Will (52:33):
Yes, it is. But, thank you so much
for, for joining us. So if you watch
Sinners, let us know what you thought about
our discussion and about the film in the chat.
We would love to hear your perspectives on this
film. Definitely one that I definitely want to go see again.
But, before we go, Charlie, let people know where they can find
you.
>> Sharlini (52:54):
At charlene._nc on
m Instagram. S H A R L I N
I Underscore NC
thanks for letting me join you all. Thanks for listening.
>> Will (53:06):
Yeah, yeah. And you can always find me on all the
socials at Will and Polk. Visit our website
at
www.cinardpodcast.com.
find us on, Twitter at Seeing a
Nerd. Find us on Blue sky at Scene N, Nerd Instagram and
threads at Scene. Underscore End Underscore
Nerds. Be sure to, follow us,
(53:26):
all the social platforms, but also most
importantly, rate review, comment
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, subscribe
to our YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcast
with that. Good night. K out. You're welcome.
>> Sharlini (53:40):
Good night.
Foreign
(00:14):
this is seen a Nerd Podcast presents Blerd Trek. I'm
your host, Will Polk and thank you so much for joining
us tonight as we're going to get into a spoiler cast of
Sinners. That's right, we're talking about the new film that
everyone is talking about. It is in the Zeitgeist.
But with me tonight on this very special
edition of Scene N Presents Blerd Trek is
(00:34):
my wife, Sharlini Thank you so much for
joining me. She was so pumped about this movie.
She did came to you this morning. She's Will will, can we do
a show about this? And I was like, of course.
So I thank you for. So
welcome back to the podcast. You joined us on our Scene N Nerd. A few years
ago we were talking about I believe one of the Star wars movies, I think
Rise of the Skywalker. But yeah, but, but
(00:57):
welcome back.
>> Sharlini (00:59):
Yeah, happy to be here. Yeah, we saw
Sinners last night and my head was full of
thoughts and you know, as always, I had like all these vivid
crazy dreams and I woke up in the morning and I am the
morning person. Will is the later
riser, shall we say. And I woke up in the morning and
I had all this time to churn through
multiple themes that I was thinking about with Sinners.
(01:21):
And when Will woke up, I was like, will, Will. Okay, I want to talk about
these themes. I want to talk about, da, da, da. So Will was like,
okay, let's, let's do a show about it. So here we are.
>> Will (01:31):
Yeah, yeah. So like I said, we
are. This is a, this is a spoiler
filled podcast. So I'm going to give you so.
>> Sharlini (01:39):
Many spoilers, lots of spoilers. I, I don't, I
can't talk without spoilers.
>> Will (01:43):
So yeah, yeah, and at this point,
yeah, this is, this is a spoiler filled podcast.
So if you haven't seen the film,
jump off now, go watch it and
then come back. Listen to our, listen to
our thoughts on, on the movie. So with
that, your last spoiler warning, let's jump, let's jump
(02:04):
right in. So again we are talking about, the
movie Sinners This is a
spoiler review and
just get a little quick little basic overview. I'm
reading from the IMDb database.
but of course the IMDb summary is the following.
Trying to leave their troubled lives behind, twin
(02:24):
brothers return to their hometown to start
again, only to discover that an even, even
greater evil is waiting to welcome them back.
So that's the IMDb database,
summary of the film of course, the film is directed by
Ryan Coogler. It stars Michael B. Jordan, Miles
Canton who is his first feature
(02:45):
film role.
>> Sharlini (02:45):
He's phenomenal. Phenomenal.
>> Will (02:48):
Yeah, yeah. Delroy, Lindo Haley,
Steinfeld is also in it.
Lusaka who Many folks probably recognize her if
you've seen Loki. seasons one and two. She's been in the MCU.
And Jack O'Connell, and also Jamie Lawson plus many
many other folks. this is a period piece film
set in 191932 Clark's
(03:08):
Clarksdale, Mississippi. The film is
scored by Ludwig Goranson
who who is a frequent collaborator with Ryan
Coogler. Star wars fans will know
loved it from the Mandalorian. He scores that
show. And and the brilliant costume
designs which we'll get into some here in our spoiler cast is by
Ruthie Carter who is an Oscar winner and
(03:30):
had to both of us had the opportunity to see her
Oscar winning designs here locally at the North
Carolina Museum of Art.
>> Sharlini (03:38):
Yeah, our art museum, our North Carolina Museum of
Art is fantastic. We're long term members, we love
it. And they had a traveling
exhibit when Ruthie
won her Oscar for costume
design and Is that right Will? Is that the
right award? Yeah. And it was
amazing. It delved into
(03:59):
all you know and
I'm a person who crafts, I sew, I'm
really into thinking about costumes and
design. It was just such an incredible display of
all her work, all the details
that went into it, all the thoughtful planning
and you could see that, you could see that
(04:20):
thoughtfulness and detail oriented approach.
Every single detail of the costumes in this
movie. It just took you right back into that
period.
>> Will (04:29):
Yeah, yeah. It's amazing, amazing stuff.
And, and of course she is a frequent collaborator with, with
Ryan. Of course she's done both black Panther
films, both the original and also Wakanda Forever.
But Charlie.
>> Sharlini (04:43):
Yeah.
>> Will (04:43):
Tell me as we get started here, just give me your overall thoughts
about the film.
>> Sharlini (04:48):
So the first thing I thought is
it is a disservice to call this a horror movie.
The horror part really
complements like so many complex
themes that this movie just so beautifully
weaves together. Right. So it takes place as well
said in the 1930s what's
happening nationally. It's the era of the
(05:10):
robber barons. It's the era of people getting rich from
coal and, and railroads and steel.
It's the era of people, it's Post World War I
it's, Prohibition, and it's,
You know, culturally. I think this movie
explores those themes from the lens
of the South. Right. The black South. And
(05:31):
at the time it's still segregated. So the movie
also gets into so many themes that I found
so interesting about, that
era, post Civil War, but still
segregation, post Reconstruction, and
finding joy, finding, beauty,
finding love, finding tenderness, finding happiness
(05:51):
in, In the midst of this
segregated world that people live in. It also gets
into, the legacies of
our ancestors that we carry with us. And I thought this movie
was so interesting because you have. Obviously the movie
centered around, you know, the twin brothers who
come back, but there's also kind of a
subplot, that goes back to the Chinese
(06:14):
immigrant cultural experience.
And there's. There's just a lot
in there to unpack, so. So
get me back on track, Will.
>> Will (06:24):
Oh, no, no, no. That. That's. That's great.
>> Sharlini (06:27):
You know, it talks about colonialism. It talks about like.
>> Will (06:30):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (06:30):
the lens through people view
black society at the time as well
as the lens, through how people view themselves. And the thing I
loved about it, and then it's also the interplay of,
you know, music and art and religion
and the. The new religion. I say
relatively new. Right. Christianity in the
(06:51):
south versus these
deeply embedded spiritual
practices that live on in your DNA,
even if you don't realize that,
you know, predominantly the African American
culture. But also, as I mentioned a little bit, the
subplot, alludes to the Chinese immigrant and the
Asian immigrant culture as well. So I found it super
(07:13):
fascinating. I found that the vampire
horror plot line was almost complementary,
but not really the. The.
The main fascination of the movie for me.
>> Will (07:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I completely agree
with, you know, with that. And you know, I think also for me,
as far as this overall thoughts, you. I. I had heard about this
film, saw the trailer. It was definitely, one of
the films that I wanted to see. 2025,
profiled it on our main show
and we. As far as, the top films coming out this year
and also during, Black History Month, we had a feature
(07:49):
on our main show with my host Sarah
Belmont, where we have profiled, during Black History Month,
Black filmmakers during Women. Women's History
Month, very prominent stories, for Women History Month.
But, we, you know, for 2025,
we profiled this one in particular as far as one of
the films that's coming out and go. And if y'all drop it in the
chat as far as the in the, in the comments before you can
(08:12):
see it, our list of other films
for 2025. But for me, this film, it
was, I heard it was a vampire movie. When I saw
the trailer, it was
a, you know, I was like, oh, this looks really, really
good. But it did not, it did not give
you the, the level of depth that we're going to get into
tonight as far as some of the themes talked about.
(08:34):
also the big thing that I think
enough that really, that really struck to me about
this film is how much music in
and of itself was a character. You had the people,
but music itself was a character. And, and,
and the score and every, you know, and
the the utilization of music and,
(08:56):
and to pull together the story. This, this
film. Yes, it is a, yes, it is a black
film as far as having a black director, predominantly
black cast, but also it's a four
quadrant film because everybody can
get something out of it.
>> Sharlini (09:11):
Yep.
>> Will (09:12):
You know, because the, the, and we'll get into the,
the, the, the Irish character, the
vampire, who's played by Jack O'Connell. You know,
there's that backstory there, there is the whole
course, you know, the storytelling elements of, you know,
telling story through song, telling story through
visual medium. That Ryan Coogler now is five for five. I
mean, quite frankly, between from Fruitvale to now.
(09:35):
The other thing too, and then we'll get into some specific
points of the film is that this was an original story,
this was not an ip because prior to this,
Ryan, of course, you know, we know his work from the
mcu. Of course he also did
Creed, which is again being based off the
IP of Rocky. But this was a
independent story that he came up and
(09:57):
he showed that he can not only
helm a, a feature film from
an original product, but really tell an amazing
story as with, you know, with, and
construct an amazing story writing and directing.
>> Sharlini (10:11):
Yeah, yeah. I do want to say though, it was, yes, it was a completely
independent story. It was a story that was really well
told. But I want to get back to your point about music being a character
in this movie. There is so
much through this movie that speaks to, and
I said this in my kind of rambling, excited intro in the
beginning, there's so much that speaks to
(10:32):
the DNA of music that we don't even
realize we carry with us. Right. So in the case
of. I'll start with the Irish or the
Highland Scottish, Irish vampires, that, you know, the
Highland dancing, that Celtic music
that folk, you know, the folk gathering.
I was, honored enough to be a guest of
my sisters at a wedding with, in the
(10:55):
uk, people with Irish
ancestry. And they had what's called a ceilidh. A
ceilidh is a traditional Irish folk dance. So we all learned
the steps and we all did it right. So that, that is
that thread of, And it was
beautiful. Everybody dances in a circle. It's joyous,
it's celebratory and it's in the DNA
like it's just passed down generation to generation.
(11:17):
Children grew up. And you know, this is true of cultures all around
the world. Greek culture has folk dancing.
Pretty much any culture you go to there
is. Dance is a sort of
ritual and it's a way that connects
you to your ancestors, to your beliefs, to
your spirituality. and so I started
with the, the Irish highland
(11:40):
dancing. And I think it's almost a cliche to talk about
how much music, African
music and spirituality
have influenced music through today. And
African American music, the spirituals, the,
the songs that people enslaved,
people sang, you know, those threads
(12:01):
come from those ancient rhythms in your
DNA. They, they give you strength, they give you
spirit, they give you, they, they have a power.
So I, I think that to
me was very evident. And if I, if I may, you
know, there's a scene. Do you want to talk about this
later?
>> Will (12:20):
Start. Let's start with the role of music. Because,
yes, it is a vampire story and we can go through, you
know.
>> Sharlini (12:25):
We don't have to necessarily.
>> Will (12:28):
I wanna. Let's. Yeah, I mean, we don't have to go chronological
with this film. Let's talk about the music.
>> Sharlini (12:33):
Yeah, it's a story about the transformative power of
music. Right. And there's. There's two threads here.
There is in the main character, Sammy,
preacher boy or one of the main characters,
you know, he, Yeah, there he is Preach, where
he comes from a
family where his father is the preacher
and he gets
(12:56):
pressure and advice to, to stick to church
music, to stick to spirituals, you know,
not, not that sinful music, but
the call of the ancestors
music is, is too strong for
him. But then I found myself thinking
that they are interwoven. You can't
separate one from the other. The
(13:18):
reason why African American
spiritual music is so moving is
because it carries with it so
many generations.
So many generations of knowledge, of culture, of
community, of power.
>> Will (13:34):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (13:35):
So I found that, you know.
>> Will (13:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole thing about music, I mean,
when the movie starts, I Mean, it starts to your point
about the spirituality and everything. It
starts with, you know,
Sammy showing up at his father's church and the Sunday
morning and it's the store, you know, the, you know,
hearing the children's choir singing, you know,
and. And. And. And so we.
(13:59):
We get that. And then also to your point about the cultural
aspects of it, because, The. The. With
the Irish. You know, with. With, The Irish
vampire. you know, there was the. The whole
Irish jig that was, going on
there. But the blending of the two.
The two. The. The. The cultures, the sim. The similarities,
(14:20):
I guess. Because, you know, again,
the, You know, whenever I
heard. Whenever. You know. Because earlier, you know, prior to
that scene, after everybody got bam.
You know, a lot of these folks got bitten by the vampires. We
had. We had the. We. We had a
very big musical fusion scene.
>> Sharlini (14:39):
To me, that was such a
powerful. Visually.
Musically, you know,
that was such a powerful scene, that
juke. Juke joint scene.
And yeah, I think maybe this is where you were going. You had the scene
where they're playing the blues, but then everything
revolves. And then you start hearing. Hearing
(15:00):
the drums, you start hearing chants. You start
hearing Chinese traditional music.
You start hearing, you know, different
musical genres. And it even goes into the future and you
start hearing music of today.
And it's just the way that scene was
woven together was. And there's no
vampire. This is before the vampires. Right.
>> Will (15:22):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (15:22):
And.
>> Will (15:23):
Right, right.
>> Sharlini (15:24):
Just that scene in itself was.
Just had so many stories
in it.
>> Will (15:30):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Yeah, that seemed to me. I, know
some. I have. You know, I think so.
So, you know, there. That. That when that
happened, I was. And we were seeing. Because
even at the beginning of the movie, we have the cultural
Africa songs and some, you know, some cuts to
it. And then, you know, when we get to that
(15:50):
big scene in the juke joint and we see
the evolution from the blues. Because the blues has
just really. It is the. It
is a. A cultural, you
know, foundation for rock and roll when you
think about it.
>> Sharlini (16:05):
Right. African rhythms.
>> Will (16:08):
And it's a bit.
>> Sharlini (16:09):
Not a musician, but I am a dancer, so.
>> Will (16:12):
Yeah. Yeah. So the blue is. You know, it's very
well documented how, you know, blues music.
Yeah, yeah, very. Yeah. how it has, you know, how it
influenced rock and roll. And then, of
course, you know, we think about, you know, Sammy, the. The blues
physician, Robert Johnson, and talk about Sammy's. You know,
we'll get to some of the spirituality of it too.
(16:33):
But, Robert Johnson,
you Know, with the sort of.
Sort of similar to Sammy, where Sammy's dad was like, you know, you can't play this
song, you know, this music with the devil and that kind of stuff. And
then, you know, Robert Johnson in his real life had, you know,
had struggled to like, like to
be getting noticed. And then he all of a sudden popped and people were
(16:53):
like thinking, oh, you know, he must have made a deal with the devil. And
then, you know, so again, to enter, you know, to
interwave. Interwoven the real life history
into this film, of. Of some of the themes
that, you know, Ryan was trying to like, you know,
illustrate with this, with many. All these
various themes in this film was really interesting. And then
(17:13):
also just the. The similar stories between like,
Irish immigrants and also African Americans as far as the.
The use of music to. To.
>> Sharlini (17:22):
To build community.
>> Will (17:23):
Yeah, build community. And also.
>> Sharlini (17:26):
Yeah. Your sorrow, your roots, your struggles,
your suffering. Yes.
>> Will (17:31):
Yeah. So all those things. Things are really
playing, you know, playing there, you
know, real interesting inner
woven dynamic between the two cultures that are,
that. That were really some of the subtext of this film that
were, you know, What I really liked about it was that this is a beat you
overhead. It was just organic to the story.
>> Sharlini (17:51):
Yes, but, but okay, can I, Can I digress
a little bit and I think into another
theme, though, but that dichotomy, that pull between kind
of like quote unquote, good church
music versus the sinful,
you know, all out,
you're fully embodied. You're fully
embracing sensuality. The rhythms,
(18:12):
the drumming that pull
also is. Oh, the good
music is what the colonialists and
the masters want you to follow and leave
the bad behind. Right. And that, that other
stuff, that's uncivilized.
>> Will (18:29):
Yeah, yeah, let's get it.
>> Sharlini (18:30):
That is another theme through this whole
movie is, you know, what is respectable.
you know, and I think with. With a twin. We haven't even talked about the twins. We
haven't talked about 20 minutes in.
Right? But. But the
twins present this veneer of respected,
quote, unquote, respectability. You know, they're dressed
(18:51):
well. They, you know, they carry themselves
like gentlemen and they, they have money, they
talk about fine Italian wine and whiskey
and, they want to have this classy
juke joint. Right, but it's a veneer
for, for the. Would you say
the rage, the anger, the. The kind
(19:11):
of, But also the quest, right, the quest
to establish yourself and celebrate.
Celebrate your community, celebrate your success, celebrate
your people, come back to your family
and your roots and.
>> Will (19:26):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (19:26):
I thought that was another theme. And then they have the whole backdrop.
The movie has this whole backdrop of. It's also the time of
the clan.
Right. So yeah this is all. And it all is so
seamlessly flows. We started by talking about the
music but the music also carries those
themes.
>> Will (19:44):
Yeah yeah. Let's. Let's talk about Smoking Stack, the two.
The two brothers. And and you know of course
there is the. The wonderful performance
by. By Michael B. Jordan
putting up this. This photo here of
just as we were as we started the podcast. Just want
to really get to Shalini's point about the.
(20:04):
The art, the. The costume design but
also how the story. But also I want to use
this, this photo, this image of the two
brothers to really flesh out
some of the things about them that really does
drive and propel the story forward.
So you know with Smoke and
Stack. So Smoke is the one with the blue
(20:27):
cap. And it really. And. And
it was. And this was the use of costuming to
also tell the story because
he is the more cool, the more
business thinking one. He was the one
who met with the gentleman Declans
the At the time m. The owner of the.
Of the just the building there
(20:50):
that they. They want to turn it to. To the juke
joint from their exploits in Chicago which is a
whole nother story we can get into as far as
them working with the gangsters and also to your point
about building a community. And and the line that sticks out to me
in the film is whenever. Whenever they do
come back home and they. They're putting together everyone to
(21:10):
build this juke joint. They were
talk when seeing this is
sharecroppers and you know and this, this is something for me that you know
that resonate resonated with this film because
my. My ass. My great great grandmother would tell
me stories about picking cotton in the 30s and 20s and
30s and so.
>> Sharlini (21:29):
You know, so seeing that your family actually can
I say not to digress too much but your mom told me this.
Your mom's family actually fled South
Carolina because
the Per. I guess
the person who owned the land.
>> Will (21:45):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (21:46):
Demanding you know didn't pay them. And then your was
a great grandfather or your grand.
>> Will (21:51):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (21:51):
Your great grandfather demanded his fair share.
>> Will (21:54):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (21:54):
From Picking cotton.
>> Will (21:56):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (21:56):
And they were threatened with being lynched. So they actually fled
for their lives from South Carolina to North
Carolina.
>> Will (22:02):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (22:03):
But that long ago. This
is. I was thinking about this. Right. This is not that
long ago.
>> Will (22:09):
Yeah. Yeah. and that's the thing too, as
I think about that line, that resonates because with
that where they talk about the plant, the.
The cotton fields and stuff and then.
And the. When they. They left, they
were part of the first wave of migration from the south to the
north. And the brothers were.
And they got wrapped up with the Capone gang.
(22:32):
And But one of the things that
smoked, talked to. To preacher boy,
who's also. Sammy is.
Who's their cousin, is that, Chicago
was just basically plantation with
skyscrapers and you know, so
it was, you know, that
struggle and the hard work and you know, even though, you know,
(22:54):
you thought going to the north was going to like, get you out of
this. This thing that you thought that
this environment you had in the south, there were still things
in the north that were just as, Just as daunting,
you know, for, For. For the two brothers. But
the cool thing about their story too is, you know,
so of course they, you know, they, they do go to north, they do
(23:15):
come, they do become part of the gang. But then they
also, like we learned that, to.
Whenever they were setting up the juke joint, you know, they had this
truck that was like, hidden in the. In
on the path. And the thing about that truck, it
was, you know, it was all, you know, you brought up the, you know, the fine
wines and the, you know, Irish, the beer and that
kind of stuff. Well, they stole all that stuff from the, from the
(23:37):
gangsters and then in the mob. And the mob were like, you
know, they were like. The mob war was, you know, they were pointing
fingers at each other. But at least these two brothers who
actually were the ones who stole it, which I thought was just, you know, really,
you know, gets through there. Yeah, gets to their.
Gets to them. Their, Their story. And they're smart and their
savviness. But Stack is the, you
(23:58):
know, so, you know, so Smoke is the,
the rational one. You know, got the blue hat. Stack is the one with the
red hat. And the, The.
The guy with the gift of Gap, he could like, really talk
his way through a situation. He was very
smooth. And so, you know, so those two
brothers. And I think the thing that. One of the things you talked about this
(24:18):
morning, I'll hand it off to you, is that the relationships
that these brothers had with themselves, but also with
the friends and families in the community. So I'll let you,
>> Sharlini (24:27):
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, one
of the things I've really, have come to appreciate
and you know, you see this in Black Panther. You see this in Wakanda
forever. What I've come to appreciate in the way Ryan Coogler
depicts relationships is the
vulnerability. It's the vulnerability
and the tenderness
that I think. You know, I don't want to speak for you,
(24:50):
but I think you don't often see black men
depicted, in that way of, you know. Again,
this is a spoiler review, right? So there is a. There
is a loss of a baby. There's a loss of a child.
That grief, that loss. There is a
tenderness of coming back to women
that you love and. And vulnerably
(25:10):
saying, I love you, I need you.
And there are strong women who are
independent, who are not waiting on their man,
but they, you know, they're supportive, and they
provide that love. And to see that expressed
in a vulnerable way where it's not
macho, it's not. It's realistic
(25:30):
and is really how so
many people have tender, open,
honest relationships that you don't always see
depicted. So, again, we're very far from talking about
the horror movie theme here, but I really
appreciated that even though there
were just a few scenes here and there, that was really the underpinnings of
the movie. Right. They were like these hardened guys who
(25:53):
cheated the mob, but at the end of the
day, they were vulnerable. They had a lot
of love to give. They had a lot of tenderness.
They. They had joy. They had,
You know, they had great affection for their cousin. They
mentored him. They. They what? They looked
out for him. They, you know, sacrificed a
lot for him. And
(26:15):
the, you know, the. The coming
back to the women, too, you know, that
complexity of, The one brother want, you
know, chose the path of, well, I'm just gonna
save you, and the other brother
chose the path of, you know, so I'm gonna
save you and have nothing to do with you, and I'm gonna abandon you
because it's better for you because it's too dangerous to be associated with
(26:37):
me. Right. That. But then coming back to that
vulnerability to say, no, no, I love you and I need
you, I thought was very powerful and very
powerfully depicted.
>> Will (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that. That definitely was. I mean,
that was, the. The relationships that they
did have. And even. And even, Even Sammy.
>> Sharlini (26:56):
Even Sammy. Right, that.
>> Will (26:58):
Yeah. With, With the relationship that he had
with, with Pearl. you know, but think about
the point.
>> Sharlini (27:05):
He's younger, so for him, it's first
love.
>> Will (27:09):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (27:09):
But I think it also goes, you know, as we're talking
about relationships, you could see it's not
spoken out loud, but you can see the inner
struggle for the relationship he has with his
father. M. And coming back to the
music, right? The music is calling him. His
gift is calling him in a different direction.
(27:29):
His gift of powerful, powerful music,
powerful song. But you can see that
conflict of where he wants to do the right thing
as the preacher's son and he wants to honor that
relationship with his father. And
that is also depicted in such a
subtle way. It's not know. It's not in your face.
And I think that's the thing that struck me
(27:51):
about the romantic relationships
as well.
>> Will (27:56):
Yeah, yeah, that was definitely, definitely just.
>> Sharlini (27:59):
Very matter of fact. This is, you know.
>> Will (28:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But But you're right to that
point too. As far as the two brothers and just they're in a relationship, their,
their friendships and stuff with people in the town.
They you know, and something you also
raised with the other
group, the Chinese for example who were there and just
the inner interplay with them. And we'll, we'll put a pin in that
(28:22):
because I do want to talk about race and passing and some of
the other things here here in a minute. But
But the other character that was very
Prominent and I thought sold every scene that he was
in was ah, Delta Slim who was a
ah. Delro Lindo's character and the
friendship that you know the relationship
he had with. With the two brothers and
(28:44):
you know whenever they, Whenever they first
go to the train
station there in. In town as they're trying
to pull together the people for their, for their juke joint.
And, and of course you know they you know, of course we do
see the. How powerful Sammy
is as far as his musical acumen. But we first, when we
(29:05):
first introduced the Delta Slim as he's sitting there playing
harmonica and, and. And
then, and then of course he and Stack have
their, their. Their discussions about you
know, as far as the negotiation. And that was another cool thing
too was just the. As far as the interpersonal relationship
among people in the town. And that's why I thought about the Chinese
(29:26):
family as well who run the shop whenever they were setting
up the. The juke joint, the
negotiations of people and interaction with
the. The commerce that was going you know there's.
That was going forth during this time
period because They you know, the bar, the barter, the
back and forth negotiating price
(29:46):
barter just you know, you know that the economy
of. Of of the. Of the tile time and
town I think was another little small
detail. But those, you know, but to me as someone,
when I, like when I, When I get, those are the types of things that helped me get
immersed into the film because it gave it a
groundedness.
>> Sharlini (30:04):
Yeah. And that's why I say, I think, you know, this is not even a horror
movie. The vampire plot was almost secondary to the whole
movie.
>> Will (30:11):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (30:11):
Yeah.
>> Will (30:12):
Because I want to do the thing. I was like, I heard the first half's about
setup and then the second half's about the vampire piece. But even.
>> Sharlini (30:17):
But, but no, I don't know. It's very
seamless. Yeah. Should we talk about, you know
what. Should we talk. Should we. Should we talk about the passing,
the. The reason? Yeah.
>> Will (30:27):
Yeah. I think this is a good place given that we're. We're talking about relationships and
stuff, because, yeah, Haley Steinfeld's character, she, you
know, she. We learned that, she did,
have a, black father, or I guess
half.
>> Sharlini (30:40):
Her daddy was half white or something.
>> Will (30:42):
Half white, yeah. Yeah. And of course, you know, during that time period, it
was still, you know, again, we're. We're talking about Jim Crow
South. So, you know, miscegenation laws are still in a place
and the one drop rule is still very,
very prominent. And to your point about, the relationships
that, you know, Stack was like, look, you know, it's
not safe for you to be here with
(31:02):
me. But clearly they, you know, they had a prior relationship, but
then they left. She waited for him, but, you know,
she did move on and she. She did marry a white, you know, married
into a white family and stuff. And there was. There was a lot of
background with that too, as far as like,
you know, the. The brothers
not, you know, paying their respects, but, you know, due to
(31:23):
the death of her mother, you know, that was a little tension
point. Yeah.
>> Sharlini (31:27):
To me, you know, it struck me.
So that whole relationship and that
whole storyline, of
her, you know, Mary, I think was her name. Mary
Passed, struck, me. There was actually
a pretty prominent character, so Mr.
Carnegie, the Mr.
Carnegie's librarian.
(31:49):
She was a, A woman named Belle da
Costa Green. And she
was a rare woman in the time
of male antique dealers. She went
to. She went to Europe and
she negotiated to procure
the best artworks for Mr.
Carnegie. And she was,
(32:11):
you know, the best of them all. And
after her passing, it
was. It was, ah, revealed
or it was found that she was actually a black
woman who passed as white her entire life
and rose to prominence. She was Running. She was given
responsibility to run the library and to go acquire pieces
of art with huge budget.
(32:34):
So watching that, you know, watching
the movie yesterday, watching Sinners and how the,
the topic of race and light skinned people
passing as white were handled
reminded me of that book that I had read. It's
called the Librarian.
Fascinating. And yeah, fascinating
both into, into the world of art and
(32:56):
antiques and that same time period of you know, the
1920s and 30s as well as
race relations and passing as
white. So.
>> Will (33:06):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean you know that. But that was a very,
again it was just a very important point I think
that again not be, you know, that they, that they.
That was very important to the story. Not only
to you know, with Stack and
Mary's relationship, but also as we do
get into that whenever they do open up Club Juke,
(33:28):
which is the name of the juke joint. and,
and, and whenever we do
M. You know, we do see the, the first
round of the vampire show up. you know that
was that was part
of, you know. Or is she going to invite all these, you know, the,
the you know, she was, you know, it was given her
(33:48):
passing and then we had these three white people show up
at the, at the place. It was sort of like. Yes.
Where they go. It was know they were like
wait.
>> Sharlini (33:58):
Can, can I correct, can I go back and correct myself a little
bit? I got my robber barons mixed up.
Yeah, so I got my robber barons mixed up. I
apologize. So Belda Costa Green was
The librarian for Mr. J.P.
morgan.
>> Will (34:12):
Oh, okay.
>> Sharlini (34:13):
Yeah, for Mr. M. J.P. morgan. And the book is called
the Personal Librarian by Marie Benedict
and Victoria Christopher Murray. So it
was Mr. Morgan. Yes.
>> Will (34:24):
Okay. Okay.
>> Sharlini (34:25):
Sorry about that.
>> Will (34:25):
Yeah, no, no, no worries, no worries. but yeah, I
mean to that point though, about
you know, barons and passing and
also just thinking about that, that
time period when you still had the
JP Morgans and the, you know, we know
we're not too far from that. The Carnegie's. You
know, we're not, we're not too far from the Gilded Age. And you know that's
(34:48):
also very, you know took it to another piece of literature about that time, the
Great Gatsby. let's
talk. And also just the larger point of the world
too because the two
brothers didn't mention this before. They were also war veterans from the
First World War.
>> Sharlini (35:04):
Yes.
>> Will (35:04):
And another thing that you, you talked about and, and something
I wanted to bring up too as we,
we you know, think about the, the
vampires, as we. It was. It's because we were really getting into
the vampire portion of the film. is this
colonialism and,
And. And, you know, with the
Irish and the British, you know, there's that history of,
(35:26):
you know, the British going, you know, of course
there's the colonialism and stuff that happened with Africa,
but also how Britain and Ireland have had that
very contentious relationship and a lot of Irish had to, you know, move
out from, you know, because of that, it came to the
States. So. Yeah. So
pick up on that. I want you to pick up all your thoughts on those.
>> Sharlini (35:46):
It's interesting how, you know, the vision that the
vampires offered was
equality and everyone being treated the
same and, you know, they don't
segregate and, you know,
and that. That's what they were trying to use to
lure people. They said, why don't you come be with
(36:06):
us? And we, you know, we're all one
people coming back to that whole idea of
community and belonging. But the
theme. And I feel, like I'm circling back to
the music, the dancing, the rituals,
the themes of colonial, the. The religion, you know,
the pressure to be that. That. The pressure
(36:27):
to. To, you know, play the good music, to
be a good Kristian, you know, to adopt the
religion of the colonizers.
is a very powerful theme
that runs through the entire movie and
is really brilliantly woven in.
And you know, the. The
(36:48):
fact, that the old ways, there are still
people who remember and carry on the old
ways. The. The girlfriend of,
Is it Dax? Girlfriend.
Will. The one who
figures out about the vampires.
>> Will (37:04):
Oh, smokes. Smoke's girlfriend.
>> Sharlini (37:06):
Girlfriend. Smokes. Girlfriend that figures out about the, you
know, the. The old ways. And she figures out what's really
happening and she makes a magical
amulet that she believes and Stack believes keeps
themselves. Keeps him safe. M.
Right. They allude to that quite a bit.
And I, you
know, I know that there's
(37:28):
still superstitions, there's still
that knowledge that,
continues. Right. Even through the efforts of
colonialism to. To stamp it out. And I
thought that was also very beautifully and brilliantly depicted
throughout the movie.
>> Will (37:44):
Totally, totally. Yeah, that. Yeah, that the,
That was definitely, brought
woven throughout the movie. And another thing about colonialism too,
and something we were talking about music and the collectiveness and
stuff and thinking about too, with some of the
discourse lately, about this film
itself. Take it out of the film, but listen to the real world and
about Ryan Coogler being able
(38:06):
to, you know, get the ownership rights of. To
this film.
>> Sharlini (38:09):
Yeah.
>> Will (38:10):
After 25 years and,
and thinking about, again, historic context of the
blues and how cultural
appropriation happens and,
and, you know, to your point about, you know,
in the religious context, it's like the good music versus
the, you know, the, the bad music.
>> Sharlini (38:29):
You know, claiming the space. Right. Claiming the
joyful space to celebrate, to play
music, to be loud, to be happy,
to have relationships,
to all those, were not things that
were allowed.
>> Will (38:45):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (38:45):
Under colonialism and slavery. So just
the fact of, coming back to the south and opening a
juke joint where people can come, you can dance, you can
stamp your feet, you can sing, you can make
love, you could, you know.
>> Will (38:58):
Yeah. Yeah. Raise hell on. On Saturday
and be saintly on Sunday. That
was, yeah, that was the theme of the juke joy. But also it
was a safe place because.
Yeah, because, you know, think again. You worked hard in the
field, you, you know, and everything, and then
you had this safe place to go to, to just
(39:19):
be free and, and all. And then. But,
you know, but, you know, I think about the vampires when you think about
vampirism, and this is what I think was a fresh take on
vampirism. I thought this film had. That
takes it from just your typical vampire film to
another is, you know, we always think, you know,
with vampires, you know,
you're, you know, the bite and,
(39:42):
you know, we saw the typical things as far as, you know, you can't
kill them and they come, they come back and that kind of stuff.
>> Sharlini (39:48):
They're scared of garlic and. Yeah, yeah.
>> Will (39:51):
All the traditional beats were there. But I think the,
the, the. The underlying
cultural appropriation of that. The, the
belonging. I wanted to be one. You know, I
think on the one hand it seems very innocuous,
but on the other hand it's just like they're just going to
just take everything about you and just suck it all out.
>> Sharlini (40:10):
Of you and assimilate. Right.
>> Will (40:12):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (40:13):
Yes.
>> Will (40:13):
And I think. And I think that's what made the Vulture, that's
what made this film more Take it to the next
level than just a basic vampire. Vampire
movie.
>> Sharlini (40:23):
Yes. So shall we. Should we
close by? We've been going on for quite a bit longer.
>> Will (40:30):
We plan to talk 40 minutes here we are 40. But I think I'm enjoying
it. So. Yeah.
>> Sharlini (40:35):
Should we, you know, I don't know if you had other things on your
list, but should we close by? Coming back to the. Just
the visual richness of this film. We started out talking about
costumes. Costumes. Yeah. We referenced
a couple of times the music. We've
referenced the Juke joint. And the
way, you know, the costuming.
>> Will (40:54):
The.
>> Sharlini (40:54):
The way. Yes, there you go. You kind of put it up
before I said it, but when I was
watching that scene and listening to the music
of in the juke joint, where they had the live
music playing and everyone's dancing,
it immediately reminded me of that
painting, Will, that you had just up. Can you bring it back? It's Sugar
Shack by Ernie Barnes, by Ernest Barnes, who's
(41:17):
actually a native of Durham, North
Carolina. So the interesting thing, Sugar
Shack was painted a little later in the 70s,
but the composition, the way this scene is
composed, just even the backdrop, the
wooden floors, you know, the people,
the costuming, everything about
that juke joint scene just reminded me
(41:39):
so much, particularly of this painting. And I just
wonder if there was a intended or a
subconscious homage to Ernie Barnes
and his work depicting joy
of music and dance and celebration, which,
again, is the theme that we've, I think, talked about quite a lot
in that movie. And just. I just. In
(42:00):
that moment, I just felt so immersed and.
>> Will (42:03):
Yeah.
>> Sharlini (42:04):
That it just really struck me. Right. The. The
importance of continuing to depict joy and
celebration and relationships and
authenticity.
>> Will (42:13):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and
I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, while I was
watching the film and I know after we finished last night, we
didn't think of it at the time, but know, there are those.
Those. Those images and. And things that are
just that, Resonate. That resonate with you. I mean,
many people probably are familiar with, you know, who
(42:34):
have seen the. The. The. The, painting Sugar Shack.
it was on the show Good Times.
and it was.
>> Sharlini (42:42):
It was a Marvin Gay album cover too.
>> Will (42:44):
It was so, you know, so there have been,
you know, things, you know, but, other places where people
may have seen it didn't even realize it, but, you know. But I do
completely agree with you that I think that
whole. That the. The. The scene
that then the shot that Ryan and his
director, you know, was thinking of
whether subconsciously or consciously was a
(43:07):
Sugar Shack. because it just really. That it was just
visually was there. I could just probably hear him like, telling his director
photography. He's like, remember, have you ever seen pulling up Sugar
Shack on their phone or whatever? Yeah. Or when they were doing
storyboards, when they were planning this film. I. I can imagine that was part
of their discussions whenever they were like, how are we going to. How we're gonna. How are
we going to set up this film or set up this scene? And that was.
That that is totally, totally the. Totally the
(43:29):
inspiration, for it. Clearly
clear as day. but yeah, the visual point, like
I said, you know, we did talk about the costume and stuff. you
know, spot on period. You know,
costuming. there was also I know
one other thing too, that two things I wanted to
hit before we drop, is the Chocotaw Indians
and their, their warnings to
(43:52):
the clan people. Because again,
you know, whenever Jack, Jack,
O'Connell, his character, but his character's name was Remick. you know,
he, you know, thinking back to the
appropriation discussion that we had a few minutes ago, and I think, you
know, and I think the context there
was. They were trying to like, you know, take
over the. The Indian, the Native American tribe.
(44:15):
And they only had them in this, in the film for just a very
short part at a time. But they, you know, but they
clearly forced him out because whenever he first shows up at
the. At the two clan members
house.
>> Sharlini (44:27):
Yeah.
>> Will (44:27):
you know, he was all scarred, beaten and stuff because
they had forced, you know, they figured it out and got him out of
there. And so I bring that up
because, you know, they, they, you
know, whenever they showed up
at the door, they tried to warn those
people.
>> Sharlini (44:45):
Well, I'm gonna say two things. I'm m gonna say
colonialism again and I'm gonna say
dismissal of traditional
indigenous knowledge, which is another
theme. You know, at the end of the day it was that traditional
indigenous knowledge and the community that
saved them. and with the Choctaw Indians
and you know, showing up to the Klansmen, the, the
(45:07):
white people's house, they were greeted with
suspicion and they were turned. Well, they
turned away because it was starting to get dark. Right. So. Yeah,
but again it, it car. Again, it's very subtle. It's a
very short scene.
>> Will (45:20):
Yep.
>> Sharlini (45:21):
But it echoes those themes and which is again
why this movie is so brilliant and so multi
layered.
>> Will (45:27):
Yeah, yeah. So there, there was that piece and
then m. The you know, the second
piece. Related. I'm
blanking on it now, but I'll come back to me.
Oh yeah, it was just the, the costuming of.
You know, we talked about that. but also the relationship between
the brothers. Because it really ties to the end of the film.
(45:50):
because at the end of the day even. Well,
yeah, there was relationship with the brothers. And also one of the
things you asked me last night, we were talking about, you know,
about the why. How did the, you know,
what was keeping the vampires out. And the
only way they were finally able to get in. And this is another cool thing that
I thought was really great about how they took things
(46:10):
about from the different path from
some vampire films is they had to be
invited in. They could not. You know, every time
they were. They came to the.
>> Sharlini (46:20):
That's right. That's a traditional vampire
lore. You have to.
>> Will (46:25):
Have to invite them in.
>> Sharlini (46:26):
You have to ask them in. They cannot enter without
being invited. Yes. Yeah, but yeah, like the
original Dracula, movie. Yes.
>> Will (46:33):
Yeah. And the thing that they were trying to work around that
was whenever, June I think it was. I think her name
was Grace Troy, I believe was the, the mom
of.
>> Sharlini (46:42):
Oh yes, the husband.
>> Will (46:44):
The husband got. Was trying to go to town to
save their daughter. Got bitten. And
then, you know, because of her, you know,
they were using her to like and to.
To basically break down the defenses and they were able to
briefly to get into the. Into the, into the.
Into the club Duke.
but yeah, so that, you know, there was that piece and then
(47:06):
the last two points I'll make and then we can, we can close
is the relationship with the brothers and how it just sort of
sets things up for the end because
the You know,
Stack was bitten because he
did have the relationship. You know, they were, you know, the. Earlier
in the film Mary, left
and she encountered
(47:29):
Remic, and the other two vampires. And of course they,
they were able to. They bit her and
she she. She comes back to the, to the, to the place
and then she in turn bites
Stack because of their, their relationship.
>> Sharlini (47:43):
And, and she's invited in by.
>> Will (47:45):
And she's invited in because. Yeah.
>> Sharlini (47:47):
Yes, because she. Yeah.
>> Will (47:50):
Bamboo tie that back to what we were just. Yeah,
yeah, to tie it back to what we were just talking about. The vampires
being invited in. So that's how they, that's how they were able to
get into the house, into the club Juke.
but the, you know, the, the relationship
between the brothers, at the end of the day they're so protective of one
another and, and you
know, we learn that
(48:14):
Smoke could not kill Stack,
you know, after after they figure out.
>> Sharlini (48:21):
Major, major spoiler. Yeah.
>> Will (48:23):
Well, if you're with us by now you've watched the film, so
I can't help it if you like we warned you at the beginning
right there.
>> Sharlini (48:31):
Yes. Yeah.
>> Will (48:33):
kept it up for the whole time.
but, but, yeah, but you know, but of course
we do. You know, you know, we begin to film
with Sammy. We end the film with Sammy you
know, we get the beginning there with Sammy at the beginning, you know, showing up
to church. Sammy, figures out, you know,
Sammy kills Remic. you know,
(48:54):
he's, you know, the very instrument that his
father told him not to use, you
know, to be that the devil's instrument ended up being the thing
that saves him. The, the music and the, and
the, the silver banjo.
and, and, and then,
you know, Smoke takes out, you
(49:15):
know, the clan does show up. Because that was sort of the, you know,
that was one of the things that we learned the
motivations about, you know, the truth about the, the
building that the club Juke was, was on.
And then fast forward to,
you know, Smoke does take
out the clan, Smoke passes away, he goes to the
(49:35):
afterlife because again, he was
free to be with,
What, was her name? I can't remember her name. But,
not Mary, the other.
>> Sharlini (49:48):
Yes, yes. I can't remember any.
>> Will (49:50):
Yeah, the, the, the, the
princess. Yeah. and,
but we get. So as we all know, we get to
the mid credit and we, we talked about this last night and I've had some
time to think about it. I want to hear, hear what your thoughts are now.
And we'll close. you know, Stack and Mary show
up at Prlene's and you know, and Sammy, you know,
(50:11):
Sammy grows up and he creates, you know, he
goes on to have a, he leaves town. He has
a wonderful career. Just a little cameo there by a
buddy guy who plays the older Sammy.
And at ah, ah, Pearline's and,
and Stack and Mary
show up, so.
>> Sharlini (50:31):
And 90s
outfits, which is also just amazing period
costuming. I was like, oh, I, we actually
wore those things.
>> Will (50:41):
Yeah. 1992. So it's like what, 70
years?
>> Sharlini (50:45):
Yep.
>> Will (50:46):
Yeah, later, I guess. Yeah.
60 years later. Yeah, 60 years later. Yeah. Yeah, my
bad. Yeah, we're like, yeah, my bad.
but, at first I was like, you
know, it felt like it was the return
of the King. Multiple endings.
But you know, the conversation that they had
(51:08):
there. I'm glad they, Now that I. Eventually the
ending works for me because at the end of the day,
Stack has the proposition.
You could have everlasting life and
immortality if you just become a
vampire.
>> Sharlini (51:23):
Uh-huh.
>> Will (51:23):
And Sammy says no because, you know, at that point, you know,
because, you know, Stack sniffs over, you know, he knows death is
imminent for, for, for Sammy because he smells
death around him.
>> Sharlini (51:33):
Yeah.
>> Will (51:33):
And he offers him that. And I just thought,
to me, you know, the more I thought about it, that was like the
perfect ending to this, film where Sammy's like,
I've lived a full life. I'm. I'm content
with what I have. So.
No, I don't want, I don't, I don't want your offer.
That, to me, that's. That, to me, that mid credit.
>> Sharlini (51:53):
Yeah. Ah, I have to think about this one a little bit more because
I, I thought they should have just ended it
where it ended without the epilogue
and maybe had, you know, the epo, the
epilogue be Sammy, you
know, at 75. But yeah, I don't know, I'll have
to think about it. That's a fresh. I hadn't thought about that perspective.
>> Will (52:14):
Yeah, Yeah, I just, I just thought about this.
>> Sharlini (52:16):
He has a choice and he rejects it.
>> Will (52:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Because he's like, I've had a full life. I, I, achieved
everything I wanted. And, and, and that was a
very, you know.
>> Sharlini (52:25):
All right, this is way past my bedtime.
I've. I know we talk about this all night, but it
is way past my bedtime.
>> Will (52:33):
Yes, it is. But, thank you so much
for, for joining us. So if you watch
Sinners, let us know what you thought about
our discussion and about the film in the chat.
We would love to hear your perspectives on this
film. Definitely one that I definitely want to go see again.
But, before we go, Charlie, let people know where they can find
you.
>> Sharlini (52:54):
At charlene._nc on
m Instagram. S H A R L I N
I Underscore NC
thanks for letting me join you all. Thanks for listening.
>> Will (53:06):
Yeah, yeah. And you can always find me on all the
socials at Will and Polk. Visit our website
at
www.cinardpodcast.com.
find us on, Twitter at Seeing a
Nerd. Find us on Blue sky at Scene N, Nerd Instagram and
threads at Scene. Underscore End Underscore
Nerds. Be sure to, follow us,
(53:26):
all the social platforms, but also most
importantly, rate review, comment
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, subscribe
to our YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcast
with that. Good night. K out. You're welcome.
>> Sharlini (53:40):
Good night.
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