May 15, 2025 • 59 mins
In episode 224 of the Sober Vibes podcast, I welcome Margy Schaller to the show, and we talk about healing as an Adult Child of Alcoholics, also known as ACA. Margy shares her story of addiction and recovery, and how she started to live loud and proud in her sobriety after 18 years of sober living.
Margy Schaller is the Co-Founder of Sober Life Rocks, a community of people who choose not to drink, are sober-ish, sober curious, and sober wingmen. Their mission is to create spaces and initiate conversations that challenge the prevailing drinking culture, offering support to a wide range of individuals, including salespeople, speakers, consultants, and other successful businesspeople.
What you will learn in this episode:
- After 20 years of sobriety, Margie discusses hiding her recovery for 18.5 years due to professional pressure.
- The Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACA) program helped Margie recognize how childhood experiences shaped her adult behavior.
- Common traits in adult children of alcoholics include hypervigilance, perfectionism, and the compulsion to "fix" others.
- Strategies for sober parents to have honest conversations with their children about alcohol
- Three powerful tips to begin healing: explore ACA literature, understand survival behaviors, and practice self-forgiveness
Thank you for listening!
Connect with Margy:
Resources mentioned:
Amplify Sober Voices Event, Use code Courtney at checkout to save $29
Adult Children of Alcoholics Book
Thank you for listening! Help the show by Rating, Reviewing, and/or Subscribing to the Sober Vibes Podcast.
Connect w/ Courtney:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney Andersen (00:31):
Hey, welcome back to the Sober Vibes podcast
.
I am your host and sober coach,courtney Anderson.
I'm also your go-to guide withliving a kick-ass life without
alcohol.
You are listening to episode224 of the Sober Vibes podcast.
You are listening to episode224 of the Sober Vibes podcast,
and today's episode is all aboutworking through adult children
of alcoholics.
I loved this conversation and,even though the topic is so deep
(00:58):
, it's just one of thoseconversations that needed to be
had, because I feel like in thesober space, that there is not
enough conversations about beingan adult child of an alcoholic.
Okay, if you don't like theword alcoholic, let's go for the
spectrum of alcohol usedisorder, because when there is
that emotional dependency onalcohol and you fall in line of
(01:22):
the spectrum, there are periodswhere children are seeing this.
So this is just an importantconversation to be had and also
to help you even.
Furthermore, of when you getsober and live an alcohol-free
life.
What is that conversation goingto look like with your kids?
Because at any moment, a parenthas the power to course correct
(01:50):
things right and start changingactions and start leading by
example and leading a new pathin their family foundation.
I truly do believe that, evenif your kids are older, that
there can be a lot of healingwith changed behavior and
conversations that you can havewith them.
So my guest today is the amazingMargie Schaller, and she is the
(02:15):
co-founder of Sober Life Rocks,which is a community of people
who choose not to drink, who aresober, sober, curious, and
their mission is to celebratespaces and initiate
conversations that challenge theprevailing drinking culture.
They offer support in a widerange of individuals, including
salespeople, speakers,consultants and other successful
(02:36):
business people.
I will put all of thatinformation in the show notes
below.
Okay, so Margie's going toshare her story and I also,
which I will link below.
I had her partner, who is theother co-founder of Sober Life
Rocks, on this podcast.
I believe it was last year,last season, laura and I will
put that episode so you canlisten to them both.
(02:59):
I really enjoyed it.
Maybe it was earlier this year.
I really enjoyed thatconversation because, again,
they are all about makinginclusive spaces, especially for
the conferences.
Right, because a lot of peoplewho have to go to conferences
and business events you knowthat space is all.
(03:19):
Majority of it all is aboutwhining and dining customers and
then going to these conferencesand just getting drunk as a
skunk.
Margie shares her story whichis an amazing story Also, too
how she really.
She was in the closet with hersobriety for many years, and
then you know how freeing it wasfor her to finally start
(03:41):
talking about it Also, too.
On that note, I want to announceand we talk about it in this
episode, but I want to sharewith you that I'm thrilled to
share that I'm speaking atAmplify Sober Voices, which is a
one-day conference happening inOrlando, florida, on January
15th 2026.
This event is designed forsober influencers, creators and
(04:04):
advocates who want to connect,grow and amplify their impact.
It's all about building asupportive, alcohol-free
community where our voices andstories are seen, heard and
celebrated.
So if you are looking to expandyour reach or get inspired or
simply be surrounded by otherson a similar path, I would love
to see you there.
You can learn more and grabyour ticket at
(04:26):
amplifysoberliferockscom and youcan also use the code COURTNEY
in all caps for $29 off of yourticket.
This one-day conference is in.
I think it's a three-dayconference two to three-day
conference hosted for PodFest.
Okay.
So again, that's down inOrlando January 15th, and they
(04:50):
are just now starting.
If you're listening to thisepisode in real time.
They are now just starting toannounce their speakers.
I was the first speaker to beannounced, super stoked to be
there, you guys, so I would loveto see you there.
All of the information will bein the show notes below.
If you have any questions, feelfree to reach out and ask, and
(05:11):
I hope to see you in sunnyOrlando Florida.
Hope you enjoy this episode.
Keep on trucking and kickingass out there.
Hey, margie, welcome to theSober Vibes podcast.
I'm very happy to have you heretoday.
Margy Schaller (05:26):
Thank you.
I cannot tell you how excited Iam to be here with you.
Courtney Andersen (05:29):
I know Last time when we talked on your
podcast, I really enjoyed ourconversation, so I do want to
start off by you've been sobernow 20 years 20 years just
happened in.
February.
Yeah, okay, congratulations,but I want you to share this
part, because you said that youhid for 18 and a half years.
(05:50):
So what do you mean by that?
Margy Schaller (05:54):
20 years ago, the stigma was real.
Courtney Andersen (05:58):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (05:59):
And I was petrified that anybody in my
outside life would find out.
I got sober in it, petrifiedthat anybody in my outside life
would find out I got sober in it, and so I even remember
scurrying behind the parking lotto get into the building where
the AA meetings were, because Ididn't want anybody to see me on
the street.
But I made the decision that Iwasn't going to tell anybody in
my professional life.
I just didn't feel like theywould embrace that and it caused
(06:22):
a lot of challenges for mebecause my job was literally to
go and wine and dine potentialnew speakers or consultants for
my company.
So I was on the road all thetime.
You go to these work happy hoursand you go take people out to
dinners and it was reallyawkward.
I remember being handed a winelist as the host of a dinner and
and this was a directory of mybest friends yeah right.
(06:47):
And yet I have to sit there atthe time I think I was maybe six
months sober and say I don'treally know what the best thing
is.
Can somebody else help?
Because I just felt so awkward.
Yeah right, the waiter comingby and saying here, would you
like to taste it?
No, I'm good, I'm just going tostick with my club soda and a
line.
It was tough.
Courtney Andersen (07:06):
Yeah, I was going to say you, probably, you
probably.
Even.
It wouldn't surprise me I don'tknow if you did do this, but
especially too, because theopenness about this really
hasn't come down until the last.
I would specifically say morelike five to eight years.
Right, I was going to say aboutfive years.
Yeah, Like the pandemic, eventhough this has been talked
(07:27):
about openly and even just theamount of time of me being in
this space it's.
But I don't.
I like to give credit wherecredit is due and that people
have been talking about this fora long time, right, either if
you were loud and proud aboutthat or if you know you had to
do what you were doing into themeetings.
But this has been for peoplewho have said they've been sober
(07:51):
out loud before this kind ofstarting on the last five, six
years.
Margy Schaller (07:57):
I always just want to give them credit because
Mad props and the celebritieswho have been bold enough and
brave enough to talk about theirjourney and their mental health
and the effects that it's hadon them, like being vocal in
such a public way, like hasgiven people permission to sort
of experiment with what it mightbe like to be open about their
(08:20):
sober choices.
Courtney Andersen (08:21):
Yeah yeah, because I'll tell you in the
beginning, there for me, I wouldGoogle sober choices.
Yeah, yeah, because I'll tellyou in the beginning, there for
me, I would Google sobercelebrities.
And then I like because at thattime again, it wasn't like
there was this huge following,but I would Google them and be
like all right.
Well, if this person can dothis A, b and C right, or really
kind of lean into the peoplewho were more vocal about their
(08:43):
struggles, it's like all right,then I can get through another
day, right.
If you think about musicianswho are sober and that's man.
You went out there and playedin front of 50,000 people, right
, and you didn't need drugs oralcohol to push you through.
That that's inspiring.
So when did you, though, whendid you decide to free yourself
when it came to then start beingvery vocal about your sobriety?
Margy Schaller (09:09):
Yeah, so my co-founder, laura Nelson, and I
knew of each other's soberchoices.
She actually got sober onTikTok, so I knew all about her
and I told her we're in the sameindustry and so I had
approached her after I saw heron TikTok and said, by the way,
and I think at the time I wasprobably like 15 years sober and
(09:29):
so she was probably in ahandful of less than five people
in my industry who knew I wassober.
A year and a half ago we're atthis women's entrepreneur
conference and there was maybe125 people there and they're in
our industry, so we know themsome better than others.
And she was on this mind bodyhealth panel which, laura, is
hysterical because that's likenot her at all but she was
(09:51):
invited to speak about how hersober choices had affected her
life and her professional walkand in the middle of being asked
a question or answeringquestions, she's.
I'm just curious here in thisroom how many people here don't
drink for whatever reason.
Well, in that moment, courtney,I had this decision to make and
I'm like starting to raise myhand super slow and I'm looking
(10:15):
around the room and do you knowlike 15% of the women in that
room were doing the same thing.
We didn't know that about eachother.
And I'm looking around shockedand I look up at Laura on the
stage and she looks at me.
We're like what just happened?
Right, right.
So we grabbed each other andwent to lunch and we're like
(10:38):
this has got to change.
This is not okay.
And I said at 18 and a halfyears sober, I can't put baby in
the corner anymore, and so it'sgoing to have to start with me
being willing to be loud andproud about this amazing part of
my life, this part of my lifethat has given me everything
that I currently have, right.
Courtney Andersen (11:00):
Do you feel, though, when you finally came
out of the sober, closet rightlike when you came out about it
and decided to be loud and proud, that there was a freedom in
that for you?
Margy Schaller (11:26):
talked about authenticity.
I've always talked abouttransparency, but I didn't know
how much of an effect that washaving on my body and my psyche
to have this part of my lifethat's been so essential Right
that kept secret from the peoplewho I interact with, quite
frankly, the most.
Courtney Andersen (11:38):
Right, right , exactly, and to in the process
of when you get sober, itbecomes something you start
nurturing very much like alittle baby, right, like it's
something that you're just soproud of and you're proud of
yourself for it.
And it's like at some pointlike, yes, why do I have to keep
this, keep having this be asecret when I'm so proud of it?
(12:00):
Right?
So I'm glad that you Let metell you a little story about
that, because this is an exampleof how it can be tough.
Margy Schaller (12:07):
10 years ago, I was 10 years sober and I had the
opportunity to.
I'm a speaker coach and I hadthe opportunity to speak in
front of a group of people at aconference for speakers and I
just started my business and Iwas like so excited, this is my
big shot to launch my business.
And I was like so excited, thisis my big shot to launch my
business into this whole newgroup of people.
(12:29):
And one of the things that Iteach people is that if you're
in front of a group that doesn'tknow you, it's really important
to open with a story that kindof speaks to who you are and
what you stand for.
And so, after talking itthrough with my sponsor and a
couple of friends, I made thedecision 10 years sober, come on
, I can talk about this.
So, I shared the story and I'mjust going to really brief it
(12:53):
down for this purposes.
But I shared the story abouthow I grew up in an alcoholic
household with a single motherand the chaos that obviously
ensued.
And I remember saying I vowed Iwould never be like her and by
my 20s I was just like herSingle mom, drinking,
alcoholically.
Chaos in my life.
But the result of having thatkind of upbringing and the
(13:14):
result of having that kind ofyoung adulthood was that I
didn't have any adulting skills.
I didn't know how to doanything and my only response to
stress was to drink and my onlyresponse to celebrate was to
drink and my only response toWednesday was to drink.
And no wonder that's what mylife was.
(13:37):
But I was puzzled by how otherpeople seem to be able to
navigate things that I couldn'tnavigate.
So I'm telling the story and soI say and then 10 years ago I
finally got sober and theseamazing women showed up in my
life, women who taught me how todo life.
They taught me how to put on mymakeup, because I didn't know.
They taught me how to dressmore professionally, how to be a
good employer, how to be a goodemployee, how to be a good mom,
(13:59):
all the things that I.
Just I didn't have these toolsbeing raised and I can never
repay those women and, quitefrankly, they're not the sort of
women who would want to berepaid.
Best that I can do is to pay itforward and help other people
become the best version ofthemselves.
(14:21):
Well, in that moment, from thatstage, everybody was leaning in
and the rest of the talk wentfantastic and I literally had
people at the end running up tome with their business card
saying I want to hire you, Iwant to hire you.
It was my dream come true.
Until later that evening, twoseparate conversations with
people who are very high up inthat organization pulled me
(14:43):
aside and said Margie, reallygood job with your talk, but you
might not want to talk aboutthat sober thing, my worst fear.
Courtney Andersen (14:53):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (14:55):
Because of that, I never spoke of it again until
eight and a half years later.
Courtney Andersen (14:59):
Yeah Well, that's a shame.
It's like a shame.
It's a shame for those twohigher ups where it's just this
is connection, and this is whatpeople want.
Is that connection in thatvulnerability?
Margy Schaller (15:13):
And then what I will say to myself, to that self
and to anybody else listeningis my resolve and my
self-confidence was so tenderand scared that it took these.
It just took two people sayingthis in a private way to get me
off of my game.
(15:33):
Yeah, but if I could speak tothat person who was me 10 years
ago, I would say it's okay,People can have their opinions,
but you're beautiful for thefact that you're 10 years sober
and beautiful for the fact thatyou've had the courage to say
these things and carry on Right.
Courtney Andersen (15:56):
People will have opinions about anything
that I do Not.
Everybody always has an opinionwhere it's just like all right,
and a lot of people don't havethe awareness on how to express
an opinion in a correct way andPC way almost, because you can
deliver that in a way where it'snot so harsh.
But some people are justassholes and they just don't
(16:22):
have that awareness and that isokay and God bless them so well,
that's what I wanted to chatwith you today, on you working
through adult children ofalcoholics, and I just think
that this is such a keyconversation and you share your
(16:48):
wisdom and your own healingjourney, because that's one you
have to go through for sure.
Margy Schaller (16:53):
Yeah, so for me at around probably eight years
seven, eight years sober I wasdoing all of the things in AA.
I had the sponsor, I had thesponsors, I was speaking at
speaker meetings, I was going tohospitals and institutions and
speaking on panels.
(17:13):
I was doing all of the thingsand I remember watching other
people around me really comingto light and really that happy,
joyous and free that everybodypromises, and really that happy,
joyous and free that everybodypromises.
And while my life was betterbecause I didn't have all the
chaos, I didn't feel that insideSomething was still missing and
(17:45):
I still felt this empty longingand ache for what I saw in
other people and a friend ofmine suggested well, maybe go
check out.
Al-anon Never really resonatedwith me.
I'm willing to take suggestions.
So I went to this bookstore andI remember leafing through an
Al-Anon book and going you know,not really me and next to the
book on the same bookshelf wasthis other book about adult
children.
Well, having grown up with analcoholic mother, I opened that
up and I just started reading acouple of pages and, courtney,
(18:07):
in that moment in that bookstore, I started to weep because just
in a couple of glances it wasdescribing me, and what I mean
by that is that there are thesecharacteristics that people who
grew up in dysfunctionalhouseholds and, by the way, aca,
the current definition is adultchildren of alcoholics and
(18:28):
other dysfunctional families ohokay, so it's okay.
It relates to people who maybewere adopted or grew up in
foster care.
It relates to people who grewup in a very harsh military
upbringing or a very stringentreligious upbringing Any kind of
dysfunction where, as a child,our needs were not only not met,
(18:49):
but often squashed, demolished,terrified, abused.
And so we grow up in this worldwith these survival skills of,
for instance, being hypervigilant.
If our parent was dysfunctionalin some way, we were always
watching to see when thingsmight fly off the handle or when
(19:11):
chaos might ensue or when ourparents needed us to come in and
save them.
I remember, as a young child,my mom would be dissolving in
tears about something and as aneight-year-old, I'm walking up
to her and comforting her.
So these survival skills havinga sense of having to control
everything Because we grew up ina very out-of-control world
(19:33):
this desire to have everythingperfect and have everything,
just making sure that everybodydoes the thing that they're
supposed to do, so that it keepsus from feeling anxious.
Oftentimes we put on asuperhero cape.
As adults, well, we're going tofix everybody and fix
everything and make sure thatwe're there for people when they
(19:53):
need us, because, again, as achild, that was our role.
And the list goes on and on ofthese characteristics.
The list goes on and on ofthese characteristics, and so I
immediately started reading moreliterature and then eventually
going to the ACA meetings.
And they have these beautifulworkbooks.
(20:15):
The language is so gentle andloving and careful to really
uncover what were some of thosesurvival skills that I learned
as a child, that I had broughtinto adulthood, that were no
longer working for me.
And I'll take the example ofpaper vigilance.
(20:35):
I, for my entire life, if I'dgone to any sort of event, I can
be talking with you, and thenmy eyeballs are also watching as
people are walking the door tomake sure that nobody feels like
they're alone, and also I'mwatching the buffet line to make
sure that there's food in thereand seeing if the wait staff
are being attentive to that, andalso over here, making sure
(20:57):
that this other person that Ijust talked to has now moved
into a conversation withsomebody else.
All of those things are goinginto my head all at once and I'm
never actually really present.
Now it turns out that the ACAprogram helps me to see what
(21:20):
elements of those survivalskills are still useful and what
parts are damaging me.
And so, as somebody who's beenthat kind of hypervigilance, I'm
a great program manager.
I can see the big picture, Ican see all the moving parts, I
can see what's going to work andwhat isn't going to work.
But what wasn't working for mewas that anxiety of having to
(21:44):
sort of run the show mentally inmy head all the time, and so
I've had to really work at that,soothing myself, recognizing
that I'm a guest at this eventand I'm here talking with you,
courtney, and can I just be inmy feet and enjoy this moment of
communion with another humanbeing and not having to run the
(22:05):
show.
Courtney Andersen (22:05):
Right.
Margy Schaller (22:08):
Yeah, that's huge.
That's huge.
Because, I think, as I gothrough one of these survival
skills and each one of thesebehaviors that's no longer
serving me, it's reallybeautiful to acknowledge those
that have helped me be who I amwhile working on taking care of
that inner child, that thatscared, overwhelmed and hurt
(22:39):
little girl that is just tryingto make things right right,
right, how long was that processfor you to work through?
Courtney Andersen (22:48):
adult children of alcoholics, what was
that?
I mean, I'm sure it's stilllike I'm still doing it.
I was going to say, but was itlike three years for you?
Because there's got to beanything that you work through,
it's a couple of years, usuallyof some intensity, right, of
really putting effort into itand the energy into it, and I do
(23:10):
believe that's forever a workin progress that you have to
probably now of, okay, meetingwith where your mother was at in
her life and where she camefrom, and seeing her more as a
human than a mom, and I'm surethat process has probably been
more real as you've gotten older, right, but yeah, so how has
(23:32):
that process of healing been foryou?
Margy Schaller (23:36):
Yeah, unlike the traditional AA program or
modern day coaching programswhere they're sort of intense
working to the tail steps orworking through the certain
process, aca has developed aseries of workbooks but each one
takes you a little bit deeperor further down a particular
(23:58):
path.
For sure, my first year and ahalf two years was just really
uncovering and discovering andfiguring out.
Wow, I didn't know.
That was why I was.
I hadn't realized that this isthe damage I did to my kids.
In the same way, I didn'trealize that I have a choice in
how I feel about things.
(24:19):
But because it's so deeplyingrained in my core, messaging
like that first workbook, Ichose to go through three times
and each one takes about.
Each sort of cycle takes aboutsix to nine months, okay.
And then I found the secondworkbook.
It just published at that timeand so I went through that one
(24:41):
three times and then they justcame out with a new one about
two years ago and I'm taking itvery slowly and I'm working
through it with another personin ACA and so we've been in that
book for close to two years andwe're getting close to the end
and we'll probably do it again.
Courtney Andersen (24:56):
Okay, I like that Continuing to do it a
couple times for really to beable to process all that.
Margy Schaller (25:04):
Right, because the first time through, I'm just
learning the language.
Courtney Andersen (25:07):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (25:08):
And I'm just sort of seeing what's obvious,
having been through it all theway once, the second time or the
third time through.
It's okay, these things havebeen handled, but oh, I didn't
see those before right, right,right, exactly.
Courtney Andersen (25:24):
Has there been a process though for you?
Has there been a forgivenesstowards your mom?
Are you still working on that?
Margy Schaller (25:31):
no, no, absolutely.
It was a while.
I think the hardest thing forme was that at when I was 13, my
dad stepped in and there was anasty court case and we ended up
being the judge granted custodyto my dad, not my mom, and she
was so upset that she decidedthat she was going to go to AA
(25:53):
and get sober.
And I think she was sober for alittle less than a year and
then she chose to go back outand continue to drink until she
died, and so my hardest thingwas forgetting that she had a
taste of sobriety and chose towalk away.
But there's this beautiful imagein ACA where you go into sort
(26:15):
of a meditation and you imagineclimbing up a telephone pole or
a ladder or something where youcan go high, and then there's a
perch up on top and you get ontop and you look out and what
you see is a line of people asfar as you can see into the
horizon, a line of people as faras you can see into the horizon
, and you see this backpack,this nasty, dirty, heavy
(26:40):
backpack, and it's being passedfrom each person through the
line, forward, forward, forward.
And then suddenly you look downand you realize the third to
last person is your greatgrandparent, and the second to
last person is your grandparentand the last person is your
parent.
And as a nasty backpack getshanded to your parent, they're
(27:03):
reaching up and handing it toyou.
And so, in seeing that, Irecognized that, just as I
didn't have any of the lifeskills I didn't know anything
else to deal with stress orcelebration or Wednesday besides
drinking no more.
So did my mother, and shedidn't have the tools.
She wasn't given theopportunity to heal from some of
(27:26):
that in time to save me.
And while I did pass thatbackpack to my kids, I have been
able to sit with them andunpack that together with them
as adults, so they may pick itup and do something with it, but
at least I've unpacked it andwe have those conversations and
we've had that healing, and sothat has allowed me to really
(27:49):
look at my mother in acompletely different way.
Courtney Andersen (27:52):
Did you have a relationship with her still
after she when she went back out?
Did you have a relationship upwith her up until she passed
away?
Margy Schaller (28:01):
Our relationship was always really tricky.
Yeah, it was never healthy, itwas never.
She was very emotionallyabusive and even at when we
moved back with my dad and mystepmother, they would coach me
on how to have conversationswith her on the phone so that I
could get through and asunscathed as possible and not in
(28:24):
a puddle of tears.
And that went on all the waythrough high school, all the way
to college.
She died when I was 25 and thelast two years were probably the
best of those years, simplybecause I was no longer in a
position where she could tell mewhat to do as a student.
Courtney Andersen (28:44):
But it was tricky, yeah for sure with your
kids, because I think this wouldbe great for moms and the dads
to hear, the dads who listen,but in particular with the moms
with quitting drinking alcohol,and then how do you bring that?
What's that conversation thenyou have with your children?
(29:07):
How do you?
Because you were in 12 Steps,so I'm sure you made your amends
with your children, but even ifsomebody is not following 12
Steps, how would, from yourperspective, your experience,
how would you have thatconversation with your kids?
Margy Schaller (29:23):
So it's been multi-layered as I've come to
more awareness, I've had moreconversations.
When I first got sober theywere 8 and 11, and they didn't
even see my drinking as aproblem, and so there was a
whole lot of denial that thethree of us had to work through
together.
And my 8-year-old son, at onepoint, after I'd been sober for
(29:45):
a little bit, he said to me hewas in the back seat, we were
driving, and he said Mommy, didyou get sober for me and my
sister?
We were driving and he saidMommy, did you get sober for me
and my sister?
And I took a moment to thinkand I said, absolutely, I wanted
to make it so I can be the bestmommy possible, but I also had
to do it for me.
But fast forward, as I began tounderstand some of the damage
(30:06):
that I had done, not justthrough the drinking but also
through the behaviors ofparentalizing them and the
behaviors of always looking tothem to praise me, to fill up
that hole that I had, of needingsomebody to give me approval.
And so at that point they wereprobably late teenage, early
(30:28):
adult, being ages, and so Iwould just share openly with him
about my journey and I wouldsay I realized I looked to
everybody else to give me praiseand all the way through your
whole lives I've asked you togive me praise.
Don't you like the food mommymade you for dinner?
(30:49):
Isn't this a pretty outfit thatmommy's wearing?
Didn't mommy do a good job atwork today?
And that wasn't fair to you,because it's not your job to
tell me things to make me feelbetter.
It's my job to tell me thingsto make me feel better, and I'm
sorry.
And so it opened up theseconversations where we were able
(31:10):
to then sometimes laugh,sometimes cry.
I would say can you think ofother funny examples of when I
did that to you, so they would?
Courtney Andersen (31:21):
sort of laugh about it, but also be able
to vent a little bit, right,right, how is that, though?
I mean, your kids are probablywhat past 21?
.
Margy Schaller (31:29):
My kids.
Now we're in their thirt, yeah,okay so do they drink they both
drink light socially okay.
Courtney Andersen (31:39):
So how was that for you, though, when they
were entering in the drinkingyears?
What was that conversation like?
Because this is a conversationagain.
I have a three and a half yearold but the time is going to
come where, eventually and hesaid like, a couple months ago,
we were in Costco and he waslike do you want to get wine,
mama?
And I was like, what has thischild learned about wine?
(32:02):
Like it was just so weird ofwhat he said, and I was like, oh
no, buddy, mama and dada don'tdrink, right.
So that's the conversation, butthere's going to be a
conversation I have with him oneday.
But there's going to be aconversation I have with him one
day, and even then, when hegets into, when alcohol starts
becoming in high school andcollege, it's going to be there
for these kids.
So what was that?
Margy Schaller (32:26):
conversation like of that awareness to your
children.
Well, they were again 8 and 11when I got sober and I brought
them with me to meetings oh,nice, nice.
So they heard the stories aboutpeople messes and they heard
the story of people's healingand I think that was really
helpful so that when they got tothose ages it was like okay,
like you guys know, therethere's a whole slew of
(32:52):
unhealthy things that come withdrinking.
Yeah, but I understand it'salso fun and everybody's doing
it, and so I'm not going to saylike never drink, but just be
aware, and I set certainboundaries in place.
If you've ever been drinking, Idon't care what the
circumstances are.
Like you call me, I'll crawlout of bed and come get you.
Yeah, no repercussions, no,nothing Right.
(33:15):
And both of them, I think, drankmoderately, maybe got drunk a
couple of times in high school,yeah, but both of them in
college.
Each of them had a situationwhere a friend called the
ambulance to take them to thehospital because they were
worried about them dying, which,as a mother, was terrifying
(33:38):
them dying right, which, as amother, was terrifying.
And my response in both ofthose cases was because at that
point I knew that they were likenot going to die.
Well, I guess you're going tohave to figure out how to pay
the ambulance bill, and I didthat because I didn't want to
shame them.
Courtney Andersen (33:51):
Yeah, for this mistake yeah but I did want
them to have to face theconsequences of this situation
which is genius, I mean, I likehonestly that's the way to,
because imagine if you wouldhave shamed them in that moment,
(34:13):
right, as they're like sittingin a hospital, but nobody wants
to hear that.
But parents, I'm sure, havecome in hot where it's just what
did you just do?
Or are you an idiot?
But it's just very it's.
Look, the kids are of that age,right, and thank God they're
safe, and how can I make thisthat moment?
(34:35):
Well, what is your consequencegoing to be?
So good, you made him pay forthe ambulance, right.
Margy Schaller (34:41):
But they already knew so, because they already
knew the dangers of overdrinking, because that had been
a discussion that has justnormal commonplace in our
household.
I didn didn't need to do that,I didn't need to like kick the
stick and beat them more with it.
I one time had this mommy,mentor.
My kids were your kids age andher three teenage boys were so
(35:06):
well behaved.
I remember going how did you dothat?
And she said to me somethingshe had been taught, which is,
she said, parenting is a littlebit like one of those springs,
like a coiled spring, and whenyour kids are little you hold
the spring all the way tight andthe goal is, by the time that
they're launched, that it's allthe way loose.
(35:29):
The trick is not to hold it allthe way tight until they leave,
because then it'll go destroyingall over the place, right, but
it's to gradually allow it toopen and open, and that means
sometimes they make mistakes.
But they make mistakes when I'mthere to catch, and I'd rather
they make the mistakes when I'mthere to catch than the first
(35:52):
time ever making a mistake outin the world.
I can't help them, so I allowedthem to fail, make bad choices
while they were still home.
Courtney Andersen (36:02):
Right, I'm starting to learn that with the
dictator because I was very,those first two years especially
.
I'm like don't do that, don'tdo it when they're little, yes.
And so now, especially sincethere's some freedom of him like
going to school, and I'm justtrying to like just give him a
little bit of starting gonnaclimb on the couch, you're gonna
(36:24):
learn if you fall, like thatI'll learn.
Not having him hang from monkeybars, yeah, but it's like baby
steps of just of where he's atin his age, of loosening up that
control on my end and allowinghim to start doing a little
living.
Margy Schaller (36:41):
Yeah, and I think that reason I drank was
because I didn't know anydifferent.
Courtney Andersen (36:48):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (36:49):
The reason I drank was it was my only tool to
cope, and drinking in and ofitself isn't the bad thing.
It was how I used it, yeah, andso I really have worked hard
with the kids to communicatethat aspect of it.
If you go to a party and youhave a beer, have fun, but if
(37:10):
you've had a horrible day andyou go to that party and have
six beers now, you're in thedanger zone.
Courtney Andersen (37:19):
Yeah, which is great because that's learning
right and it is even with yousay of like, where you learn.
I think that for so manygenerations there wasn't because
nobody knew any better, right?
You know what I mean.
There wasn't a way to explainto your kids like there's other
(37:39):
ways to cope with life andstress and or have fun without
alcohol, right?
And in these two generationsyour generation, mine there's
awareness all about this, andeven younger ones underneath us.
So I just think that is abeautiful thing of all of this
awareness and all of this helpthat is out there nowadays, but
(38:02):
it's really about keeping thatconversation open inside of your
home.
Margy Schaller (38:07):
And it's bearing fruit now.
I mean the younger generation,statistically, are drinking
significantly less as they'recoming into adulthood than our
generations did, and I believeit is because we have worked
really hard at developing othercoping tools.
Courtney Andersen (38:22):
Yes, exactly , and that's the thing.
So when you got sober, that'swhat I mean, Like I think that's
very hard for moms to have anopen discussion or the family
unit right, Like where it's thefamily unit of Open to your
(38:45):
children.
I remember one of mysister-in-laws were like well,
how do I explain this to my kids?
I said you just be open aboutit.
You know what I mean.
There's mental health issuesand addiction that run on both
sides of the family.
It's not frowned upon nowadaysand you just got to rip that
bandaid off.
And I think that you canexpress that to children at
whatever age group that they'reat, where they somewhat get it.
(39:07):
If I were to explain that tothe dictator right now, he would
just probably look at me andmaybe ask me what addiction was
and then ask me to go color.
Margy Schaller (39:16):
You know what I mean these children, it's like
they you normalize the words,you normalize the vocabulary at
this age, so that later, whenyou're having this conversation,
it's not what are we talkingabout, right, it's just normal
right, and that's what I wantedto ask you too, because being an
adult child of an alcoholic,there's this you, because it has
(39:40):
secrets, will keep you sick andother people's secrets will
keep you sick.
Courtney Andersen (39:44):
And how did you release your mother's the
shame of your mom being analcoholic?
Because at some point you haveto release that and be like okay
, this isn't continue my storyto take with me that was on her
and it is not a shameful aspectof my life.
Margy Schaller (40:08):
Well, because she passed when I was 25, I was
not sober at that point.
While she was living, Idefinitely carried that I
wouldn't invite people over pasta certain time of night because
I didn't know what would happen.
Courtney Andersen (40:23):
Right right.
Margy Schaller (40:25):
And because I had such a difficult
relationship with her once shepassed, I'm just going to say I
had no problem difficultrelationship with her once she
passed.
I'm just going to say I had noproblem.
For me under the bus, gotcha,yeah Right.
But the inside job didn'thappen until I came across ACA.
And I remember thinking tomyself when I was in my first
(40:48):
couple years of sobriety, likeif she was a stranger who showed
up in one of the AA rooms thatI was in until I really got
through the idea that she didn'thave any other tools, just as I
(41:15):
didn't have any other tools.
And even when she did get towork for that year, it was the
white knuckle if I can do thislong enough to get the kids back
thing.
And once it was clear that thekids were coming back, the white
knuckle wheeled out.
It wasn't going to work.
Courtney Andersen (41:28):
He wasn't able to cope with that kind of
stress yeah uh-huh yeah, do youfeel because this is an
interesting, this is aninteresting concept and this is
what I had felt when I got sober.
There was a couple of years inand I experienced this too, with
(41:49):
a lot of working withone-on-one clients what we talk
about, where there is thiscertain type of loneliness that
you experience and you wonderwhere.
You're like this can't be likephysical loneliness, right, like
this because I have peoplearound me, right, like I have
friends, I have, if you have asignificant other right.
This was for me where I was likeI have, if you have a
(42:10):
significant other right.
This is for me, where I waslike, oh, this isn't a physical
loneliness, where I had someinner loneliness because this
went back to my childhood and Ifeel like adult children of
alcoholics and or of what yousaid, of like some type of
trauma or experienced parents,of what did you say.
And then it's the parents ofDysfunctional parents,
dysfunctional parents,dysfunctional parents right,
(42:31):
that there is this internalloneliness that you can't
pinpoint and I couldn't pinpointit until I got sober in a
couple of years and I was likethis has always been here
Because at those formative yearsthe needs that I needed were
not met right With a lot of workthat I did on myself, and
sometimes not so much now, but Idealt with that for time to
(42:55):
time and just accepted that itwas a part of me.
Did you feel that too and did?
Margy Schaller (43:00):
yes.
Courtney Andersen (43:01):
And that's like, unfortunately sometimes.
Did it help you when you workthrough it, through the program
of Adult Children of Alcoholics?
Did that help?
Margy Schaller (43:09):
yes, okay.
So that was another aspect ofwhen I got sober that those
first seven or eight years I wassurrounded by women that I'd
never had relationships beforeand yet I still felt I didn't
feel all the way connected.
And what I uncovered through mywork in ACA was that I had
(43:36):
always walked through life withthis mask the I'm fine mask, oh
yeah.
I've got it all together mask.
And I found my purpose in AA,my passion in AA to put on that
hero cape and to be there forothers.
And I got to sponsor women andI got to help other women and it
still was needed me to be thesuperhero.
But there was one day I satdown and I thought I don't
(44:02):
remember the last time anybodyasked me what I like to do.
In fact, I don't know if any ofmy friends even know my hobbies
, Because I'm so good atdeflecting conversations away
from me and I'm so good attaking questions.
(44:23):
Somebody does ask me quickly,answering it lightly and then
turning it back to them BecauseI could hide in plain sight and
I was devastated.
I was devastated that I was theone keeping people at arm's
length through these behaviorsthat I wasn't even aware that I
had.
Courtney Andersen (44:39):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (44:42):
And I will say, just simultaneously with that
realization, we moved from SanDiego to Seattle.
With that realization, we movedfrom San Diego to Seattle.
And so it was this opportunityfor me to say, okay, am I going
to show up differently as I getsnow people, Am I going to be
the sort of person who hastwo-way relationships or one-way
relationships?
(45:02):
Am I going to be the sort ofperson who takes up just as much
airtime in conversations ordeflects them all to the other
person?
And so the first friend that Imade here, that was my every bit
of intention.
I worked really hard at it andI even shared with her like this
is something I'm working on, socall me on it if you see me
doing it and it was unlikeanything I've ever experienced
(45:25):
To just actually trust thatsomebody liked me and grew to
love me because of who I am, notof what I presented.
Courtney Andersen (45:36):
Yes, right, exactly Right.
Yeah, so powerful, yeah.
So, for anybody listening, ifyou're struggling with that
loneliness, it's just workingthrough it with that loneliness,
it's just working through it,obviously.
But also to I don't.
I just sometimes I feel likewhen you embrace, start
(45:57):
embracing parts of yourself andreally accepting it, instead of
pushing it away and puttingresisting and resisting, because
that resistance will drive youbatshit crazy.
I've just this is part of who Iam and what can I do in these
moments to honor that internalloneliness?
Because this is going to goback, because sometimes you're
never going to get that.
You're never going to get alsoto, in that loneliness, that
(46:18):
validation from anybody else whoyou're never going to get it,
from the people who you weresupposed to trust the most and
they failed you Right.
And so I just believe inembracing that and just you got
to heal yourself and that innerchild and just be like it's okay
.
If I want to take a day to layin my bed and disassociate with
some Netflix, cool, I want to goget a massage.
Margy Schaller (46:42):
Or if you have a good day at work, you can reach
back and pat yourself on theback and say, wow, you did a
great job today.
Courtney Andersen (46:56):
Yes and Mari , I have to say that is why I
encourage people, whatever daythey're not drinking, to pat
themselves on the back.
I know that for some peoplethey don't like to take that on,
but it is something that goesso much deeper of you need that
Validate yourself.
Physical touch yes, Feels sogood, yes, exactly.
So what would be like threetips that you would share with
(47:16):
somebody to to help someonestart healing who is an adult
child of an alcoholic?
What three tips would you giveor steps would you recommend for
them to start on that path?
Margy Schaller (47:31):
I think that number one is I love the
organization or the literaturefrom ACA, and so just Google ACA
and read the laundry list.
Laundry list is the list ofthese characteristics that we
have in common, that are thingsthat are survival skills from
(47:54):
when you're a kid.
I think the second thing isthat if we can start to unpack
some of these character defects,these things that we don't like
about ourselves I'm supercontrolling, or I'm super needy
and start to see where did thosebehaviors come from and
(48:18):
understand that you're notflawed.
You simply did the best thatyou could as a kid and you
carried what you learned to dointo adulthood in a way that's
just not working right now.
Right, and I think that thethird thing is the beginning of
that self-forgiveness.
I think that when, as adultchildren of dysfunctional
(48:44):
families or alcoholics, we holdourselves to be ridiculous
standards yeah, oh my god, yesridiculous standards yes and so
to begin to recognize.
If you saw another child beingtreated the way that your inner
child was, you'd be horrified,and if you saw that little girl
(49:08):
or little boy growing up andfunctioning in the world the way
that they were, you would beamazed that they made it through
.
And so give yourself that grace.
What you went through may notbe somebody else's horrifying
story, but it was yourhorrifying story, and the fact
that you've made it through andare functioning in some way as
an adult is amazing.
Courtney Andersen (49:30):
Amen because that's when people are like,
well, this only happened to me.
I'm like, no, you need torecognize your own type of
trauma that you had and thatthis was a big deal for you and
this impacted and shaped who youwere.
Because now, in your 30s, youhave this and this and you're
unpacking it like this is hardto unpack later on in life, 30s.
You have this and this andyou're unpacking it Like this is
hard to unpack later on in life, you know where you're still
(49:53):
then like especially too, if youhave kids and or it's just it's
a lot to go through and figureout who you are later on in life
, not like you're going throughyour 20s and like having this an
awakening and be like, oh great, I'm not like you.
So you, you got to giveyourself the grace and, yes,
that you are now an adult whotakes care of themselves, pays
(50:16):
their bills right, all the putsfood in your kid's mouth and
clothes on your back and you'redoing the damn things.
Margy Schaller (50:24):
And so with that , then, unpacking it becomes a
gift you're giving yourself, asopposed to one more thing to
carry shame about.
Courtney Andersen (50:33):
Yeah, absolutely Well, I love this
conversation, so I reallyappreciate you sharing it to the
good people of the world that'swhat I call the listeners and I
know that this is going to helpthem.
Where can people find you?
Tell us about Sober Life Rocks?
I did not mention and I willlink it in the show notes but
your partner, laura, she was onthe podcast.
(50:56):
I don't know what episode itwas, but we had a great talk
about making events moreinclusive, especially in the
conference world.
Margy Schaller (51:06):
Yep, thank you.
Sober Life Brocks is anorganization where we are really
trying to normalize soberchoices for professionals,
because remember that was myorigin story it just wasn't okay
.
And what we dream about is aworld where, when you go to
happy hour with your team, orwhen you travel to a conference,
(51:26):
or when you go out afterwardsafter work with friends for
drinks, that it's completelynormal doesn't matter what's in
your cup to have something thathas alcohol, doesn't have
alcohol, and that when you speakup and say, hey, I don't drink,
that that's celebrated andhonored yeah instead, instead of
(51:47):
asking why yeah.
Are you pregnant?
Yeah, I don't Right.
Oh, are you religious?
Right, right, exactly, asthough those are things to be
said quietly.
Courtney Andersen (52:01):
Right, I mean it's crazy, but and that is
, though, why, like specificallywhat you ladies are doing, I
love it because it's just moreeducation, especially to with
professionals, since that is socentered around those
conferences.
I mean, I was blown away whenyou both have told me about all
of the partying and what andlike what those conferences are,
(52:25):
and it's crazy.
Yes, and like even me and Laurahad the conversation on the
podcast of, especially for women.
You have to do twice as muchwork right In your profession to
prove yourself and then get toa certain point, right If you
want to climb a ladder or proveyourself to to the corporate
(52:45):
world that you are capable andyou can do this and handle it,
because women have to do that.
And then you go to a conferenceon the weekend and you get shit
faced and hammered, and thenthat is all you're known for.
You know what I mean, so it'sit's heartbreaking, and then
that's all you're known for thetime in your work office in the
(53:06):
nine to five.
Margy Schaller (53:07):
That's what Heather did, or you go to a
conference and afterwards all ofthe cool people are going out
for drinks.
And if your job is to try tonetwork and build relationships,
do you, as a sober person, goto those activities where
everybody's going out for drinks, or do you just shrug your
(53:28):
shoulders and go back to yourroom?
It's a tough situation outthere.
Courtney Andersen (53:32):
Yeah.
Yeah absolutely yeah, yeah.
Margy Schaller (53:35):
The other thing that we're doing is we also
recognize that there are peoplelike you who have been on this
journey for a while and areleading the charge with your
podcast and with your coachingand with all of the things, and
there's others who want to startto do more.
Maybe they're just starting apodcast, or maybe they want to
(53:57):
be a speaker, or maybe theystarted to write, but maybe now
they want to try other things.
Or they had this great socialmedia following, but now they
want to get into podcasting.
So we're holding a conferencecalled Amplify Sober Voices and
it's on January 15th 2026 inOrlando, florida, and the idea
is that if you are somebody whowants to be in this space, who
(54:21):
wants to be part of theconversation whether it's
speaking, writing, podcasting oron social media come to the
conference, meet people likeCourtney, who's going to be one
of our speakers, and meet peoplewho maybe you've looked up to
or show up and help other peoplealong their journey, because we
all need community and those ofus who are leading, oftentimes
(54:45):
it's lonely at the top, but whenwe can be in community with
each other and lift each otherup and amplify our sober voices,
we'll all benefit and we'll allbe able to help this mission
around the world.
Courtney Andersen (54:59):
Yeah, I love it.
I can't wait.
I can't wait to meet you ladies, too, in person.
Give you guys a hug.
I'm a hugger In real life, metoo.
Good, yeah, I think that'sgreat of what you're doing, and
especially, too, that start tobe more the normal in
conferences and that you know ofleading with story and that and
(55:21):
in all of conferences.
Right, that then the higher opsaren't going to take you aside
and be like I don't think thatyou should leave with that,
right?
This is just.
This is this is my story andthis is my experience in the
world, so I'm very excited.
I will put a link in the shownotes for the Amplify Sober
(55:41):
Voices, so if you are interestedin it, please come on and come
for that day, because it's a dayplease come on and come for
that day, because it's a daycorrect the whole day of the day
, so it's being held as a daywithin something called pod fest
expo.
Margy Schaller (55:55):
It's the largest podcasting conference and it's
it's international.
2 000 podcasters are there andso they have their whole own
programming, but they haveallowed us to have a silo day
for Amplify Sober Voices withinthat.
Courtney Andersen (56:08):
So when you come to our conference, you
automatically get a ticket tothe greater podfest if you want,
yeah, which is going to begreat, and I really I told you,
ladies, I think this is going tobe a big hit and that a lot of
those podcasters are going tocome to this, because the
storytelling alone just focus onstorytelling right, and how so
(56:31):
many of us are very articulateand being able to share a story.
I think people are just goingto want to learn from that,
honestly that who are not evensober right, and just to check
it out.
So I think it's a big one.
Yeah, well, thank you so muchfor being on today's episode and
again, I will put all of yourinformation in the show notes
(56:53):
below.
So if you want to reach out toMargie, feel free and even
connect your Instagram and yourwebsite.
Margy Schaller (57:00):
Beautiful.
Thank you so much, and thankyou for really making a space
for this conversation, because Ibelieve that many people grow
up in some form of dysfunctionor another and we don't have the
tools to heal until we figureout even what's going on yeah,
(57:20):
especially too, about this topicright, because again, it's like
you carry on somebody else'sshame.
Courtney Andersen (57:28):
I will just put this when I had and I'm sure
you're even the way you talkedabout your mom, it was not in a
blame situation, it was not in ayou did this right, like it was
in a very caring, loving wayand respectful way, and how I
(57:49):
have talked about my parents onthis space.
For the most part I wouldprobably say about 90% I have
been respectful, because they'restill on this planet and even
when they're not, I don't thinkthat I'm going to truly go there
, right, because that was theirstory.
But this is my perspective andthis is what happened to me and
(58:10):
how I came out of that chaos,and I can speak my truth when it
comes to that, and I wantpeople to be able to do that
within themselves.
That came from dysfunction.
You can still have arelationship with a parent even
if you came from dysfunction,but it can be very much a
boundary and one that now youmake on your terms that feels
(58:34):
right for you, and then, if youdon't ever want to have a
relationship with them, that'sfine.
I mean, I just that theserelationships they're very
complicated, yeah, and it's notall black and white.
There's a lot of gray area ofthis, so much gray area, but
what's important is just thatyou, as that adult child, heal
yourself and go on that journeyand work through that stuff.
Margy Schaller (58:58):
Thank you for having me, Courtney.
Courtney Andersen (59:00):
Thank you next time.
Hey, welcome back to the Sober Vibes podcast
.
I am your host and sober coach,courtney Anderson.
I'm also your go-to guide withliving a kick-ass life without
alcohol.
You are listening to episode224 of the Sober Vibes podcast.
You are listening to episode224 of the Sober Vibes podcast,
and today's episode is all aboutworking through adult children
of alcoholics.
I loved this conversation and,even though the topic is so deep
(00:58):
, it's just one of thoseconversations that needed to be
had, because I feel like in thesober space, that there is not
enough conversations about beingan adult child of an alcoholic.
Okay, if you don't like theword alcoholic, let's go for the
spectrum of alcohol usedisorder, because when there is
that emotional dependency onalcohol and you fall in line of
(01:22):
the spectrum, there are periodswhere children are seeing this.
So this is just an importantconversation to be had and also
to help you even.
Furthermore, of when you getsober and live an alcohol-free
life.
What is that conversation goingto look like with your kids?
Because at any moment, a parenthas the power to course correct
(01:50):
things right and start changingactions and start leading by
example and leading a new pathin their family foundation.
I truly do believe that, evenif your kids are older, that
there can be a lot of healingwith changed behavior and
conversations that you can havewith them.
So my guest today is the amazingMargie Schaller, and she is the
(02:15):
co-founder of Sober Life Rocks,which is a community of people
who choose not to drink, who aresober, sober, curious, and
their mission is to celebratespaces and initiate
conversations that challenge theprevailing drinking culture.
They offer support in a widerange of individuals, including
salespeople, speakers,consultants and other successful
(02:36):
business people.
I will put all of thatinformation in the show notes
below.
Okay, so Margie's going toshare her story and I also,
which I will link below.
I had her partner, who is theother co-founder of Sober Life
Rocks, on this podcast.
I believe it was last year,last season, laura and I will
put that episode so you canlisten to them both.
(02:59):
I really enjoyed it.
Maybe it was earlier this year.
I really enjoyed thatconversation because, again,
they are all about makinginclusive spaces, especially for
the conferences.
Right, because a lot of peoplewho have to go to conferences
and business events you knowthat space is all.
(03:19):
Majority of it all is aboutwhining and dining customers and
then going to these conferencesand just getting drunk as a
skunk.
Margie shares her story whichis an amazing story Also, too
how she really.
She was in the closet with hersobriety for many years, and
then you know how freeing it wasfor her to finally start
(03:41):
talking about it Also, too.
On that note, I want to announceand we talk about it in this
episode, but I want to sharewith you that I'm thrilled to
share that I'm speaking atAmplify Sober Voices, which is a
one-day conference happening inOrlando, florida, on January
15th 2026.
This event is designed forsober influencers, creators and
(04:04):
advocates who want to connect,grow and amplify their impact.
It's all about building asupportive, alcohol-free
community where our voices andstories are seen, heard and
celebrated.
So if you are looking to expandyour reach or get inspired or
simply be surrounded by otherson a similar path, I would love
to see you there.
You can learn more and grabyour ticket at
(04:26):
amplifysoberliferockscom and youcan also use the code COURTNEY
in all caps for $29 off of yourticket.
This one-day conference is in.
I think it's a three-dayconference two to three-day
conference hosted for PodFest.
Okay.
So again, that's down inOrlando January 15th, and they
(04:50):
are just now starting.
If you're listening to thisepisode in real time.
They are now just starting toannounce their speakers.
I was the first speaker to beannounced, super stoked to be
there, you guys, so I would loveto see you there.
All of the information will bein the show notes below.
If you have any questions, feelfree to reach out and ask, and
(05:11):
I hope to see you in sunnyOrlando Florida.
Hope you enjoy this episode.
Keep on trucking and kickingass out there.
Hey, margie, welcome to theSober Vibes podcast.
I'm very happy to have you heretoday.
Margy Schaller (05:26):
Thank you.
I cannot tell you how excited Iam to be here with you.
Courtney Andersen (05:29):
I know Last time when we talked on your
podcast, I really enjoyed ourconversation, so I do want to
start off by you've been sobernow 20 years 20 years just
happened in.
February.
Yeah, okay, congratulations,but I want you to share this
part, because you said that youhid for 18 and a half years.
(05:50):
So what do you mean by that?
Margy Schaller (05:54):
20 years ago, the stigma was real.
Courtney Andersen (05:58):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (05:59):
And I was petrified that anybody in my
outside life would find out.
I got sober in it, petrifiedthat anybody in my outside life
would find out I got sober in it, and so I even remember
scurrying behind the parking lotto get into the building where
the AA meetings were, because Ididn't want anybody to see me on
the street.
But I made the decision that Iwasn't going to tell anybody in
my professional life.
I just didn't feel like theywould embrace that and it caused
(06:22):
a lot of challenges for mebecause my job was literally to
go and wine and dine potentialnew speakers or consultants for
my company.
So I was on the road all thetime.
You go to these work happy hoursand you go take people out to
dinners and it was reallyawkward.
I remember being handed a winelist as the host of a dinner and
and this was a directory of mybest friends yeah right.
(06:47):
And yet I have to sit there atthe time I think I was maybe six
months sober and say I don'treally know what the best thing
is.
Can somebody else help?
Because I just felt so awkward.
Yeah right, the waiter comingby and saying here, would you
like to taste it?
No, I'm good, I'm just going tostick with my club soda and a
line.
It was tough.
Courtney Andersen (07:06):
Yeah, I was going to say you, probably, you
probably.
Even.
It wouldn't surprise me I don'tknow if you did do this, but
especially too, because theopenness about this really
hasn't come down until the last.
I would specifically say morelike five to eight years.
Right, I was going to say aboutfive years.
Yeah, Like the pandemic, eventhough this has been talked
(07:27):
about openly and even just theamount of time of me being in
this space it's.
But I don't.
I like to give credit wherecredit is due and that people
have been talking about this fora long time, right, either if
you were loud and proud aboutthat or if you know you had to
do what you were doing into themeetings.
But this has been for peoplewho have said they've been sober
(07:51):
out loud before this kind ofstarting on the last five, six
years.
Margy Schaller (07:57):
I always just want to give them credit because
Mad props and the celebritieswho have been bold enough and
brave enough to talk about theirjourney and their mental health
and the effects that it's hadon them, like being vocal in
such a public way, like hasgiven people permission to sort
of experiment with what it mightbe like to be open about their
(08:20):
sober choices.
Courtney Andersen (08:21):
Yeah yeah, because I'll tell you in the
beginning, there for me, I wouldGoogle sober choices.
Yeah, yeah, because I'll tellyou in the beginning, there for
me, I would Google sobercelebrities.
And then I like because at thattime again, it wasn't like
there was this huge following,but I would Google them and be
like all right.
Well, if this person can dothis A, b and C right, or really
kind of lean into the peoplewho were more vocal about their
(08:43):
struggles, it's like all right,then I can get through another
day, right.
If you think about musicianswho are sober and that's man.
You went out there and playedin front of 50,000 people, right
, and you didn't need drugs oralcohol to push you through.
That that's inspiring.
So when did you, though, whendid you decide to free yourself
when it came to then start beingvery vocal about your sobriety?
Margy Schaller (09:09):
Yeah, so my co-founder, laura Nelson, and I
knew of each other's soberchoices.
She actually got sober onTikTok, so I knew all about her
and I told her we're in the sameindustry and so I had
approached her after I saw heron TikTok and said, by the way,
and I think at the time I wasprobably like 15 years sober and
(09:29):
so she was probably in ahandful of less than five people
in my industry who knew I wassober.
A year and a half ago we're atthis women's entrepreneur
conference and there was maybe125 people there and they're in
our industry, so we know themsome better than others.
And she was on this mind bodyhealth panel which, laura, is
hysterical because that's likenot her at all but she was
(09:51):
invited to speak about how hersober choices had affected her
life and her professional walkand in the middle of being asked
a question or answeringquestions, she's.
I'm just curious here in thisroom how many people here don't
drink for whatever reason.
Well, in that moment, courtney,I had this decision to make and
I'm like starting to raise myhand super slow and I'm looking
(10:15):
around the room and do you knowlike 15% of the women in that
room were doing the same thing.
We didn't know that about eachother.
And I'm looking around shockedand I look up at Laura on the
stage and she looks at me.
We're like what just happened?
Right, right.
So we grabbed each other andwent to lunch and we're like
(10:38):
this has got to change.
This is not okay.
And I said at 18 and a halfyears sober, I can't put baby in
the corner anymore, and so it'sgoing to have to start with me
being willing to be loud andproud about this amazing part of
my life, this part of my lifethat has given me everything
that I currently have, right.
Courtney Andersen (11:00):
Do you feel, though, when you finally came
out of the sober, closet rightlike when you came out about it
and decided to be loud and proud, that there was a freedom in
that for you?
Margy Schaller (11:26):
talked about authenticity.
I've always talked abouttransparency, but I didn't know
how much of an effect that washaving on my body and my psyche
to have this part of my lifethat's been so essential Right
that kept secret from the peoplewho I interact with, quite
frankly, the most.
Courtney Andersen (11:38):
Right, right , exactly, and to in the process
of when you get sober, itbecomes something you start
nurturing very much like alittle baby, right, like it's
something that you're just soproud of and you're proud of
yourself for it.
And it's like at some pointlike, yes, why do I have to keep
this, keep having this be asecret when I'm so proud of it?
(12:00):
Right?
So I'm glad that you Let metell you a little story about
that, because this is an exampleof how it can be tough.
Margy Schaller (12:07):
10 years ago, I was 10 years sober and I had the
opportunity to.
I'm a speaker coach and I hadthe opportunity to speak in
front of a group of people at aconference for speakers and I
just started my business and Iwas like so excited, this is my
big shot to launch my business.
And I was like so excited, thisis my big shot to launch my
business into this whole newgroup of people.
(12:29):
And one of the things that Iteach people is that if you're
in front of a group that doesn'tknow you, it's really important
to open with a story that kindof speaks to who you are and
what you stand for.
And so, after talking itthrough with my sponsor and a
couple of friends, I made thedecision 10 years sober, come on
, I can talk about this.
So, I shared the story and I'mjust going to really brief it
(12:53):
down for this purposes.
But I shared the story abouthow I grew up in an alcoholic
household with a single motherand the chaos that obviously
ensued.
And I remember saying I vowed Iwould never be like her and by
my 20s I was just like herSingle mom, drinking,
alcoholically.
Chaos in my life.
But the result of having thatkind of upbringing and the
(13:14):
result of having that kind ofyoung adulthood was that I
didn't have any adulting skills.
I didn't know how to doanything and my only response to
stress was to drink and my onlyresponse to celebrate was to
drink and my only response toWednesday was to drink.
And no wonder that's what mylife was.
(13:37):
But I was puzzled by how otherpeople seem to be able to
navigate things that I couldn'tnavigate.
So I'm telling the story and soI say and then 10 years ago I
finally got sober and theseamazing women showed up in my
life, women who taught me how todo life.
They taught me how to put on mymakeup, because I didn't know.
They taught me how to dressmore professionally, how to be a
good employer, how to be a goodemployee, how to be a good mom,
(13:59):
all the things that I.
Just I didn't have these toolsbeing raised and I can never
repay those women and, quitefrankly, they're not the sort of
women who would want to berepaid.
Best that I can do is to pay itforward and help other people
become the best version ofthemselves.
(14:21):
Well, in that moment, from thatstage, everybody was leaning in
and the rest of the talk wentfantastic and I literally had
people at the end running up tome with their business card
saying I want to hire you, Iwant to hire you.
It was my dream come true.
Until later that evening, twoseparate conversations with
people who are very high up inthat organization pulled me
(14:43):
aside and said Margie, reallygood job with your talk, but you
might not want to talk aboutthat sober thing, my worst fear.
Courtney Andersen (14:53):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (14:55):
Because of that, I never spoke of it again until
eight and a half years later.
Courtney Andersen (14:59):
Yeah Well, that's a shame.
It's like a shame.
It's a shame for those twohigher ups where it's just this
is connection, and this is whatpeople want.
Is that connection in thatvulnerability?
Margy Schaller (15:13):
And then what I will say to myself, to that self
and to anybody else listeningis my resolve and my
self-confidence was so tenderand scared that it took these.
It just took two people sayingthis in a private way to get me
off of my game.
(15:33):
Yeah, but if I could speak tothat person who was me 10 years
ago, I would say it's okay,People can have their opinions,
but you're beautiful for thefact that you're 10 years sober
and beautiful for the fact thatyou've had the courage to say
these things and carry on Right.
Courtney Andersen (15:56):
People will have opinions about anything
that I do Not.
Everybody always has an opinionwhere it's just like all right,
and a lot of people don't havethe awareness on how to express
an opinion in a correct way andPC way almost, because you can
deliver that in a way where it'snot so harsh.
But some people are justassholes and they just don't
(16:22):
have that awareness and that isokay and God bless them so well,
that's what I wanted to chatwith you today, on you working
through adult children ofalcoholics, and I just think
that this is such a keyconversation and you share your
(16:48):
wisdom and your own healingjourney, because that's one you
have to go through for sure.
Margy Schaller (16:53):
Yeah, so for me at around probably eight years
seven, eight years sober I wasdoing all of the things in AA.
I had the sponsor, I had thesponsors, I was speaking at
speaker meetings, I was going tohospitals and institutions and
speaking on panels.
(17:13):
I was doing all of the thingsand I remember watching other
people around me really comingto light and really that happy,
joyous and free that everybodypromises, and really that happy,
joyous and free that everybodypromises.
And while my life was betterbecause I didn't have all the
chaos, I didn't feel that insideSomething was still missing and
(17:45):
I still felt this empty longingand ache for what I saw in
other people and a friend ofmine suggested well, maybe go
check out.
Al-anon Never really resonatedwith me.
I'm willing to take suggestions.
So I went to this bookstore andI remember leafing through an
Al-Anon book and going you know,not really me and next to the
book on the same bookshelf wasthis other book about adult
children.
Well, having grown up with analcoholic mother, I opened that
up and I just started reading acouple of pages and, courtney,
(18:07):
in that moment in that bookstore, I started to weep because just
in a couple of glances it wasdescribing me, and what I mean
by that is that there are thesecharacteristics that people who
grew up in dysfunctionalhouseholds and, by the way, aca,
the current definition is adultchildren of alcoholics and
(18:28):
other dysfunctional families ohokay, so it's okay.
It relates to people who maybewere adopted or grew up in
foster care.
It relates to people who grewup in a very harsh military
upbringing or a very stringentreligious upbringing Any kind of
dysfunction where, as a child,our needs were not only not met,
(18:49):
but often squashed, demolished,terrified, abused.
And so we grow up in this worldwith these survival skills of,
for instance, being hypervigilant.
If our parent was dysfunctionalin some way, we were always
watching to see when thingsmight fly off the handle or when
(19:11):
chaos might ensue or when ourparents needed us to come in and
save them.
I remember, as a young child,my mom would be dissolving in
tears about something and as aneight-year-old, I'm walking up
to her and comforting her.
So these survival skills havinga sense of having to control
everything Because we grew up ina very out-of-control world
(19:33):
this desire to have everythingperfect and have everything,
just making sure that everybodydoes the thing that they're
supposed to do, so that it keepsus from feeling anxious.
Oftentimes we put on asuperhero cape.
As adults, well, we're going tofix everybody and fix
everything and make sure thatwe're there for people when they
(19:53):
need us, because, again, as achild, that was our role.
And the list goes on and on ofthese characteristics.
The list goes on and on ofthese characteristics, and so I
immediately started reading moreliterature and then eventually
going to the ACA meetings.
And they have these beautifulworkbooks.
(20:15):
The language is so gentle andloving and careful to really
uncover what were some of thosesurvival skills that I learned
as a child, that I had broughtinto adulthood, that were no
longer working for me.
And I'll take the example ofpaper vigilance.
(20:35):
I, for my entire life, if I'dgone to any sort of event, I can
be talking with you, and thenmy eyeballs are also watching as
people are walking the door tomake sure that nobody feels like
they're alone, and also I'mwatching the buffet line to make
sure that there's food in thereand seeing if the wait staff
are being attentive to that, andalso over here, making sure
(20:57):
that this other person that Ijust talked to has now moved
into a conversation withsomebody else.
All of those things are goinginto my head all at once and I'm
never actually really present.
Now it turns out that the ACAprogram helps me to see what
(21:20):
elements of those survivalskills are still useful and what
parts are damaging me.
And so, as somebody who's beenthat kind of hypervigilance, I'm
a great program manager.
I can see the big picture, Ican see all the moving parts, I
can see what's going to work andwhat isn't going to work.
But what wasn't working for mewas that anxiety of having to
(21:44):
sort of run the show mentally inmy head all the time, and so
I've had to really work at that,soothing myself, recognizing
that I'm a guest at this eventand I'm here talking with you,
courtney, and can I just be inmy feet and enjoy this moment of
communion with another humanbeing and not having to run the
(22:05):
show.
Courtney Andersen (22:05):
Right.
Margy Schaller (22:08):
Yeah, that's huge.
That's huge.
Because, I think, as I gothrough one of these survival
skills and each one of thesebehaviors that's no longer
serving me, it's reallybeautiful to acknowledge those
that have helped me be who I amwhile working on taking care of
that inner child, that thatscared, overwhelmed and hurt
(22:39):
little girl that is just tryingto make things right right,
right, how long was that processfor you to work through?
Courtney Andersen (22:48):
adult children of alcoholics, what was
that?
I mean, I'm sure it's stilllike I'm still doing it.
I was going to say, but was itlike three years for you?
Because there's got to beanything that you work through,
it's a couple of years, usuallyof some intensity, right, of
really putting effort into itand the energy into it, and I do
(23:10):
believe that's forever a workin progress that you have to
probably now of, okay, meetingwith where your mother was at in
her life and where she camefrom, and seeing her more as a
human than a mom, and I'm surethat process has probably been
more real as you've gotten older, right, but yeah, so how has
(23:32):
that process of healing been foryou?
Margy Schaller (23:36):
Yeah, unlike the traditional AA program or
modern day coaching programswhere they're sort of intense
working to the tail steps orworking through the certain
process, aca has developed aseries of workbooks but each one
takes you a little bit deeperor further down a particular
(23:58):
path.
For sure, my first year and ahalf two years was just really
uncovering and discovering andfiguring out.
Wow, I didn't know.
That was why I was.
I hadn't realized that this isthe damage I did to my kids.
In the same way, I didn'trealize that I have a choice in
how I feel about things.
(24:19):
But because it's so deeplyingrained in my core, messaging
like that first workbook, Ichose to go through three times
and each one takes about.
Each sort of cycle takes aboutsix to nine months, okay.
And then I found the secondworkbook.
It just published at that timeand so I went through that one
(24:41):
three times and then they justcame out with a new one about
two years ago and I'm taking itvery slowly and I'm working
through it with another personin ACA and so we've been in that
book for close to two years andwe're getting close to the end
and we'll probably do it again.
Courtney Andersen (24:56):
Okay, I like that Continuing to do it a
couple times for really to beable to process all that.
Margy Schaller (25:04):
Right, because the first time through, I'm just
learning the language.
Courtney Andersen (25:07):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (25:08):
And I'm just sort of seeing what's obvious,
having been through it all theway once, the second time or the
third time through.
It's okay, these things havebeen handled, but oh, I didn't
see those before right, right,right, exactly.
Courtney Andersen (25:24):
Has there been a process though for you?
Has there been a forgivenesstowards your mom?
Are you still working on that?
Margy Schaller (25:31):
no, no, absolutely.
It was a while.
I think the hardest thing forme was that at when I was 13, my
dad stepped in and there was anasty court case and we ended up
being the judge granted custodyto my dad, not my mom, and she
was so upset that she decidedthat she was going to go to AA
(25:53):
and get sober.
And I think she was sober for alittle less than a year and
then she chose to go back outand continue to drink until she
died, and so my hardest thingwas forgetting that she had a
taste of sobriety and chose towalk away.
But there's this beautiful imagein ACA where you go into sort
(26:15):
of a meditation and you imagineclimbing up a telephone pole or
a ladder or something where youcan go high, and then there's a
perch up on top and you get ontop and you look out and what
you see is a line of people asfar as you can see into the
horizon, a line of people as faras you can see into the horizon
, and you see this backpack,this nasty, dirty, heavy
(26:40):
backpack, and it's being passedfrom each person through the
line, forward, forward, forward.
And then suddenly you look downand you realize the third to
last person is your greatgrandparent, and the second to
last person is your grandparentand the last person is your
parent.
And as a nasty backpack getshanded to your parent, they're
(27:03):
reaching up and handing it toyou.
And so, in seeing that, Irecognized that, just as I
didn't have any of the lifeskills I didn't know anything
else to deal with stress orcelebration or Wednesday besides
drinking no more.
So did my mother, and shedidn't have the tools.
She wasn't given theopportunity to heal from some of
(27:26):
that in time to save me.
And while I did pass thatbackpack to my kids, I have been
able to sit with them andunpack that together with them
as adults, so they may pick itup and do something with it, but
at least I've unpacked it andwe have those conversations and
we've had that healing, and sothat has allowed me to really
(27:49):
look at my mother in acompletely different way.
Courtney Andersen (27:52):
Did you have a relationship with her still
after she when she went back out?
Did you have a relationship upwith her up until she passed
away?
Margy Schaller (28:01):
Our relationship was always really tricky.
Yeah, it was never healthy, itwas never.
She was very emotionallyabusive and even at when we
moved back with my dad and mystepmother, they would coach me
on how to have conversationswith her on the phone so that I
could get through and asunscathed as possible and not in
(28:24):
a puddle of tears.
And that went on all the waythrough high school, all the way
to college.
She died when I was 25 and thelast two years were probably the
best of those years, simplybecause I was no longer in a
position where she could tell mewhat to do as a student.
Courtney Andersen (28:44):
But it was tricky, yeah for sure with your
kids, because I think this wouldbe great for moms and the dads
to hear, the dads who listen,but in particular with the moms
with quitting drinking alcohol,and then how do you bring that?
What's that conversation thenyou have with your children?
(29:07):
How do you?
Because you were in 12 Steps,so I'm sure you made your amends
with your children, but even ifsomebody is not following 12
Steps, how would, from yourperspective, your experience,
how would you have thatconversation with your kids?
Margy Schaller (29:23):
So it's been multi-layered as I've come to
more awareness, I've had moreconversations.
When I first got sober theywere 8 and 11, and they didn't
even see my drinking as aproblem, and so there was a
whole lot of denial that thethree of us had to work through
together.
And my 8-year-old son, at onepoint, after I'd been sober for
(29:45):
a little bit, he said to me hewas in the back seat, we were
driving, and he said Mommy, didyou get sober for me and my
sister?
We were driving and he saidMommy, did you get sober for me
and my sister?
And I took a moment to thinkand I said, absolutely, I wanted
to make it so I can be the bestmommy possible, but I also had
to do it for me.
But fast forward, as I began tounderstand some of the damage
(30:06):
that I had done, not justthrough the drinking but also
through the behaviors ofparentalizing them and the
behaviors of always looking tothem to praise me, to fill up
that hole that I had, of needingsomebody to give me approval.
And so at that point they wereprobably late teenage, early
(30:28):
adult, being ages, and so Iwould just share openly with him
about my journey and I wouldsay I realized I looked to
everybody else to give me praiseand all the way through your
whole lives I've asked you togive me praise.
Don't you like the food mommymade you for dinner?
(30:49):
Isn't this a pretty outfit thatmommy's wearing?
Didn't mommy do a good job atwork today?
And that wasn't fair to you,because it's not your job to
tell me things to make me feelbetter.
It's my job to tell me thingsto make me feel better, and I'm
sorry.
And so it opened up theseconversations where we were able
(31:10):
to then sometimes laugh,sometimes cry.
I would say can you think ofother funny examples of when I
did that to you, so they would?
Courtney Andersen (31:21):
sort of laugh about it, but also be able
to vent a little bit, right,right, how is that, though?
I mean, your kids are probablywhat past 21?
.
Margy Schaller (31:29):
My kids.
Now we're in their thirt, yeah,okay so do they drink they both
drink light socially okay.
Courtney Andersen (31:39):
So how was that for you, though, when they
were entering in the drinkingyears?
What was that conversation like?
Because this is a conversationagain.
I have a three and a half yearold but the time is going to
come where, eventually and hesaid like, a couple months ago,
we were in Costco and he waslike do you want to get wine,
mama?
And I was like, what has thischild learned about wine?
(32:02):
Like it was just so weird ofwhat he said, and I was like, oh
no, buddy, mama and dada don'tdrink, right.
So that's the conversation, butthere's going to be a
conversation I have with him oneday.
But there's going to be aconversation I have with him one
day, and even then, when hegets into, when alcohol starts
becoming in high school andcollege, it's going to be there
for these kids.
So what was that?
Margy Schaller (32:26):
conversation like of that awareness to your
children.
Well, they were again 8 and 11when I got sober and I brought
them with me to meetings oh,nice, nice.
So they heard the stories aboutpeople messes and they heard
the story of people's healingand I think that was really
helpful so that when they got tothose ages it was like okay,
like you guys know, therethere's a whole slew of
(32:52):
unhealthy things that come withdrinking.
Yeah, but I understand it'salso fun and everybody's doing
it, and so I'm not going to saylike never drink, but just be
aware, and I set certainboundaries in place.
If you've ever been drinking, Idon't care what the
circumstances are.
Like you call me, I'll crawlout of bed and come get you.
Yeah, no repercussions, no,nothing Right.
(33:15):
And both of them, I think, drankmoderately, maybe got drunk a
couple of times in high school,yeah, but both of them in
college.
Each of them had a situationwhere a friend called the
ambulance to take them to thehospital because they were
worried about them dying, which,as a mother, was terrifying
(33:38):
them dying right, which, as amother, was terrifying.
And my response in both ofthose cases was because at that
point I knew that they were likenot going to die.
Well, I guess you're going tohave to figure out how to pay
the ambulance bill, and I didthat because I didn't want to
shame them.
Courtney Andersen (33:51):
Yeah, for this mistake yeah but I did want
them to have to face theconsequences of this situation
which is genius, I mean, I likehonestly that's the way to,
because imagine if you wouldhave shamed them in that moment,
(34:13):
right, as they're like sittingin a hospital, but nobody wants
to hear that.
But parents, I'm sure, havecome in hot where it's just what
did you just do?
Or are you an idiot?
But it's just very it's.
Look, the kids are of that age,right, and thank God they're
safe, and how can I make thisthat moment?
(34:35):
Well, what is your consequencegoing to be?
So good, you made him pay forthe ambulance, right.
Margy Schaller (34:41):
But they already knew so, because they already
knew the dangers of overdrinking, because that had been
a discussion that has justnormal commonplace in our
household.
I didn didn't need to do that,I didn't need to like kick the
stick and beat them more with it.
I one time had this mommy,mentor.
My kids were your kids age andher three teenage boys were so
(35:06):
well behaved.
I remember going how did you dothat?
And she said to me somethingshe had been taught, which is,
she said, parenting is a littlebit like one of those springs,
like a coiled spring, and whenyour kids are little you hold
the spring all the way tight andthe goal is, by the time that
they're launched, that it's allthe way loose.
(35:29):
The trick is not to hold it allthe way tight until they leave,
because then it'll go destroyingall over the place, right, but
it's to gradually allow it toopen and open, and that means
sometimes they make mistakes.
But they make mistakes when I'mthere to catch, and I'd rather
they make the mistakes when I'mthere to catch than the first
(35:52):
time ever making a mistake outin the world.
I can't help them, so I allowedthem to fail, make bad choices
while they were still home.
Courtney Andersen (36:02):
Right, I'm starting to learn that with the
dictator because I was very,those first two years especially
.
I'm like don't do that, don'tdo it when they're little, yes.
And so now, especially sincethere's some freedom of him like
going to school, and I'm justtrying to like just give him a
little bit of starting gonnaclimb on the couch, you're gonna
(36:24):
learn if you fall, like thatI'll learn.
Not having him hang from monkeybars, yeah, but it's like baby
steps of just of where he's atin his age, of loosening up that
control on my end and allowinghim to start doing a little
living.
Margy Schaller (36:41):
Yeah, and I think that reason I drank was
because I didn't know anydifferent.
Courtney Andersen (36:48):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (36:49):
The reason I drank was it was my only tool to
cope, and drinking in and ofitself isn't the bad thing.
It was how I used it, yeah, andso I really have worked hard
with the kids to communicatethat aspect of it.
If you go to a party and youhave a beer, have fun, but if
(37:10):
you've had a horrible day andyou go to that party and have
six beers now, you're in thedanger zone.
Courtney Andersen (37:19):
Yeah, which is great because that's learning
right and it is even with yousay of like, where you learn.
I think that for so manygenerations there wasn't because
nobody knew any better, right?
You know what I mean.
There wasn't a way to explainto your kids like there's other
(37:39):
ways to cope with life andstress and or have fun without
alcohol, right?
And in these two generationsyour generation, mine there's
awareness all about this, andeven younger ones underneath us.
So I just think that is abeautiful thing of all of this
awareness and all of this helpthat is out there nowadays, but
(38:02):
it's really about keeping thatconversation open inside of your
home.
Margy Schaller (38:07):
And it's bearing fruit now.
I mean the younger generation,statistically, are drinking
significantly less as they'recoming into adulthood than our
generations did, and I believeit is because we have worked
really hard at developing othercoping tools.
Courtney Andersen (38:22):
Yes, exactly , and that's the thing.
So when you got sober, that'swhat I mean, Like I think that's
very hard for moms to have anopen discussion or the family
unit right, Like where it's thefamily unit of Open to your
(38:45):
children.
I remember one of mysister-in-laws were like well,
how do I explain this to my kids?
I said you just be open aboutit.
You know what I mean.
There's mental health issuesand addiction that run on both
sides of the family.
It's not frowned upon nowadaysand you just got to rip that
bandaid off.
And I think that you canexpress that to children at
whatever age group that they'reat, where they somewhat get it.
(39:07):
If I were to explain that tothe dictator right now, he would
just probably look at me andmaybe ask me what addiction was
and then ask me to go color.
Margy Schaller (39:16):
You know what I mean these children, it's like
they you normalize the words,you normalize the vocabulary at
this age, so that later, whenyou're having this conversation,
it's not what are we talkingabout, right, it's just normal
right, and that's what I wantedto ask you too, because being an
adult child of an alcoholic,there's this you, because it has
(39:40):
secrets, will keep you sick andother people's secrets will
keep you sick.
Courtney Andersen (39:44):
And how did you release your mother's the
shame of your mom being analcoholic?
Because at some point you haveto release that and be like okay
, this isn't continue my storyto take with me that was on her
and it is not a shameful aspectof my life.
Margy Schaller (40:08):
Well, because she passed when I was 25, I was
not sober at that point.
While she was living, Idefinitely carried that I
wouldn't invite people over pasta certain time of night because
I didn't know what would happen.
Courtney Andersen (40:23):
Right right.
Margy Schaller (40:25):
And because I had such a difficult
relationship with her once shepassed, I'm just going to say I
had no problem difficultrelationship with her once she
passed.
I'm just going to say I had noproblem.
For me under the bus, gotcha,yeah Right.
But the inside job didn'thappen until I came across ACA.
And I remember thinking tomyself when I was in my first
(40:48):
couple years of sobriety, likeif she was a stranger who showed
up in one of the AA rooms thatI was in until I really got
through the idea that she didn'thave any other tools, just as I
(41:15):
didn't have any other tools.
And even when she did get towork for that year, it was the
white knuckle if I can do thislong enough to get the kids back
thing.
And once it was clear that thekids were coming back, the white
knuckle wheeled out.
It wasn't going to work.
Courtney Andersen (41:28):
He wasn't able to cope with that kind of
stress yeah uh-huh yeah, do youfeel because this is an
interesting, this is aninteresting concept and this is
what I had felt when I got sober.
There was a couple of years inand I experienced this too, with
(41:49):
a lot of working withone-on-one clients what we talk
about, where there is thiscertain type of loneliness that
you experience and you wonderwhere.
You're like this can't be likephysical loneliness, right, like
this because I have peoplearound me, right, like I have
friends, I have, if you have asignificant other right.
This was for me where I was likeI have, if you have a
(42:10):
significant other right.
This is for me, where I waslike, oh, this isn't a physical
loneliness, where I had someinner loneliness because this
went back to my childhood and Ifeel like adult children of
alcoholics and or of what yousaid, of like some type of
trauma or experienced parents,of what did you say.
And then it's the parents ofDysfunctional parents,
dysfunctional parents,dysfunctional parents right,
(42:31):
that there is this internalloneliness that you can't
pinpoint and I couldn't pinpointit until I got sober in a
couple of years and I was likethis has always been here
Because at those formative yearsthe needs that I needed were
not met right With a lot of workthat I did on myself, and
sometimes not so much now, but Idealt with that for time to
(42:55):
time and just accepted that itwas a part of me.
Did you feel that too and did?
Margy Schaller (43:00):
yes.
Courtney Andersen (43:01):
And that's like, unfortunately sometimes.
Did it help you when you workthrough it, through the program
of Adult Children of Alcoholics?
Did that help?
Margy Schaller (43:09):
yes, okay.
So that was another aspect ofwhen I got sober that those
first seven or eight years I wassurrounded by women that I'd
never had relationships beforeand yet I still felt I didn't
feel all the way connected.
And what I uncovered through mywork in ACA was that I had
(43:36):
always walked through life withthis mask the I'm fine mask, oh
yeah.
I've got it all together mask.
And I found my purpose in AA,my passion in AA to put on that
hero cape and to be there forothers.
And I got to sponsor women andI got to help other women and it
still was needed me to be thesuperhero.
But there was one day I satdown and I thought I don't
(44:02):
remember the last time anybodyasked me what I like to do.
In fact, I don't know if any ofmy friends even know my hobbies
, Because I'm so good atdeflecting conversations away
from me and I'm so good attaking questions.
(44:23):
Somebody does ask me quickly,answering it lightly and then
turning it back to them BecauseI could hide in plain sight and
I was devastated.
I was devastated that I was theone keeping people at arm's
length through these behaviorsthat I wasn't even aware that I
had.
Courtney Andersen (44:39):
Yeah.
Margy Schaller (44:42):
And I will say, just simultaneously with that
realization, we moved from SanDiego to Seattle.
With that realization, we movedfrom San Diego to Seattle.
And so it was this opportunityfor me to say, okay, am I going
to show up differently as I getsnow people, Am I going to be
the sort of person who hastwo-way relationships or one-way
relationships?
(45:02):
Am I going to be the sort ofperson who takes up just as much
airtime in conversations ordeflects them all to the other
person?
And so the first friend that Imade here, that was my every bit
of intention.
I worked really hard at it andI even shared with her like this
is something I'm working on, socall me on it if you see me
doing it and it was unlikeanything I've ever experienced
(45:25):
To just actually trust thatsomebody liked me and grew to
love me because of who I am, notof what I presented.
Courtney Andersen (45:36):
Yes, right, exactly Right.
Yeah, so powerful, yeah.
So, for anybody listening, ifyou're struggling with that
loneliness, it's just workingthrough it with that loneliness,
it's just working through it,obviously.
But also to I don't.
I just sometimes I feel likewhen you embrace, start
(45:57):
embracing parts of yourself andreally accepting it, instead of
pushing it away and puttingresisting and resisting, because
that resistance will drive youbatshit crazy.
I've just this is part of who Iam and what can I do in these
moments to honor that internalloneliness?
Because this is going to goback, because sometimes you're
never going to get that.
You're never going to get alsoto, in that loneliness, that
(46:18):
validation from anybody else whoyou're never going to get it,
from the people who you weresupposed to trust the most and
they failed you Right.
And so I just believe inembracing that and just you got
to heal yourself and that innerchild and just be like it's okay
.
If I want to take a day to layin my bed and disassociate with
some Netflix, cool, I want to goget a massage.
Margy Schaller (46:42):
Or if you have a good day at work, you can reach
back and pat yourself on theback and say, wow, you did a
great job today.
Courtney Andersen (46:56):
Yes and Mari , I have to say that is why I
encourage people, whatever daythey're not drinking, to pat
themselves on the back.
I know that for some peoplethey don't like to take that on,
but it is something that goesso much deeper of you need that
Validate yourself.
Physical touch yes, Feels sogood, yes, exactly.
So what would be like threetips that you would share with
(47:16):
somebody to to help someonestart healing who is an adult
child of an alcoholic?
What three tips would you giveor steps would you recommend for
them to start on that path?
Margy Schaller (47:31):
I think that number one is I love the
organization or the literaturefrom ACA, and so just Google ACA
and read the laundry list.
Laundry list is the list ofthese characteristics that we
have in common, that are thingsthat are survival skills from
(47:54):
when you're a kid.
I think the second thing isthat if we can start to unpack
some of these character defects,these things that we don't like
about ourselves I'm supercontrolling, or I'm super needy
and start to see where did thosebehaviors come from and
(48:18):
understand that you're notflawed.
You simply did the best thatyou could as a kid and you
carried what you learned to dointo adulthood in a way that's
just not working right now.
Right, and I think that thethird thing is the beginning of
that self-forgiveness.
I think that when, as adultchildren of dysfunctional
(48:44):
families or alcoholics, we holdourselves to be ridiculous
standards yeah, oh my god, yesridiculous standards yes and so
to begin to recognize.
If you saw another child beingtreated the way that your inner
child was, you'd be horrified,and if you saw that little girl
(49:08):
or little boy growing up andfunctioning in the world the way
that they were, you would beamazed that they made it through
.
And so give yourself that grace.
What you went through may notbe somebody else's horrifying
story, but it was yourhorrifying story, and the fact
that you've made it through andare functioning in some way as
an adult is amazing.
Courtney Andersen (49:30):
Amen because that's when people are like,
well, this only happened to me.
I'm like, no, you need torecognize your own type of
trauma that you had and thatthis was a big deal for you and
this impacted and shaped who youwere.
Because now, in your 30s, youhave this and this and you're
unpacking it like this is hardto unpack later on in life, 30s.
You have this and this andyou're unpacking it Like this is
hard to unpack later on in life, you know where you're still
(49:53):
then like especially too, if youhave kids and or it's just it's
a lot to go through and figureout who you are later on in life
, not like you're going throughyour 20s and like having this an
awakening and be like, oh great, I'm not like you.
So you, you got to giveyourself the grace and, yes,
that you are now an adult whotakes care of themselves, pays
(50:16):
their bills right, all the putsfood in your kid's mouth and
clothes on your back and you'redoing the damn things.
Margy Schaller (50:24):
And so with that , then, unpacking it becomes a
gift you're giving yourself, asopposed to one more thing to
carry shame about.
Courtney Andersen (50:33):
Yeah, absolutely Well, I love this
conversation, so I reallyappreciate you sharing it to the
good people of the world that'swhat I call the listeners and I
know that this is going to helpthem.
Where can people find you?
Tell us about Sober Life Rocks?
I did not mention and I willlink it in the show notes but
your partner, laura, she was onthe podcast.
(50:56):
I don't know what episode itwas, but we had a great talk
about making events moreinclusive, especially in the
conference world.
Margy Schaller (51:06):
Yep, thank you.
Sober Life Brocks is anorganization where we are really
trying to normalize soberchoices for professionals,
because remember that was myorigin story it just wasn't okay
.
And what we dream about is aworld where, when you go to
happy hour with your team, orwhen you travel to a conference,
(51:26):
or when you go out afterwardsafter work with friends for
drinks, that it's completelynormal doesn't matter what's in
your cup to have something thathas alcohol, doesn't have
alcohol, and that when you speakup and say, hey, I don't drink,
that that's celebrated andhonored yeah instead, instead of
(51:47):
asking why yeah.
Are you pregnant?
Yeah, I don't Right.
Oh, are you religious?
Right, right, exactly, asthough those are things to be
said quietly.
Courtney Andersen (52:01):
Right, I mean it's crazy, but and that is
, though, why, like specificallywhat you ladies are doing, I
love it because it's just moreeducation, especially to with
professionals, since that is socentered around those
conferences.
I mean, I was blown away whenyou both have told me about all
of the partying and what andlike what those conferences are,
(52:25):
and it's crazy.
Yes, and like even me and Laurahad the conversation on the
podcast of, especially for women.
You have to do twice as muchwork right In your profession to
prove yourself and then get toa certain point, right If you
want to climb a ladder or proveyourself to to the corporate
(52:45):
world that you are capable andyou can do this and handle it,
because women have to do that.
And then you go to a conferenceon the weekend and you get shit
faced and hammered, and thenthat is all you're known for.
You know what I mean, so it'sit's heartbreaking, and then
that's all you're known for thetime in your work office in the
(53:06):
nine to five.
Margy Schaller (53:07):
That's what Heather did, or you go to a
conference and afterwards all ofthe cool people are going out
for drinks.
And if your job is to try tonetwork and build relationships,
do you, as a sober person, goto those activities where
everybody's going out for drinks, or do you just shrug your
(53:28):
shoulders and go back to yourroom?
It's a tough situation outthere.
Courtney Andersen (53:32):
Yeah.
Yeah absolutely yeah, yeah.
Margy Schaller (53:35):
The other thing that we're doing is we also
recognize that there are peoplelike you who have been on this
journey for a while and areleading the charge with your
podcast and with your coachingand with all of the things, and
there's others who want to startto do more.
Maybe they're just starting apodcast, or maybe they want to
(53:57):
be a speaker, or maybe theystarted to write, but maybe now
they want to try other things.
Or they had this great socialmedia following, but now they
want to get into podcasting.
So we're holding a conferencecalled Amplify Sober Voices and
it's on January 15th 2026 inOrlando, florida, and the idea
is that if you are somebody whowants to be in this space, who
(54:21):
wants to be part of theconversation whether it's
speaking, writing, podcasting oron social media come to the
conference, meet people likeCourtney, who's going to be one
of our speakers, and meet peoplewho maybe you've looked up to
or show up and help other peoplealong their journey, because we
all need community and those ofus who are leading, oftentimes
(54:45):
it's lonely at the top, but whenwe can be in community with
each other and lift each otherup and amplify our sober voices,
we'll all benefit and we'll allbe able to help this mission
around the world.
Courtney Andersen (54:59):
Yeah, I love it.
I can't wait.
I can't wait to meet you ladies, too, in person.
Give you guys a hug.
I'm a hugger In real life, metoo.
Good, yeah, I think that'sgreat of what you're doing, and
especially, too, that start tobe more the normal in
conferences and that you know ofleading with story and that and
(55:21):
in all of conferences.
Right, that then the higher opsaren't going to take you aside
and be like I don't think thatyou should leave with that,
right?
This is just.
This is this is my story andthis is my experience in the
world, so I'm very excited.
I will put a link in the shownotes for the Amplify Sober
(55:41):
Voices, so if you are interestedin it, please come on and come
for that day, because it's a dayplease come on and come for
that day, because it's a daycorrect the whole day of the day
, so it's being held as a daywithin something called pod fest
expo.
Margy Schaller (55:55):
It's the largest podcasting conference and it's
it's international.
2 000 podcasters are there andso they have their whole own
programming, but they haveallowed us to have a silo day
for Amplify Sober Voices withinthat.
Courtney Andersen (56:08):
So when you come to our conference, you
automatically get a ticket tothe greater podfest if you want,
yeah, which is going to begreat, and I really I told you,
ladies, I think this is going tobe a big hit and that a lot of
those podcasters are going tocome to this, because the
storytelling alone just focus onstorytelling right, and how so
(56:31):
many of us are very articulateand being able to share a story.
I think people are just goingto want to learn from that,
honestly that who are not evensober right, and just to check
it out.
So I think it's a big one.
Yeah, well, thank you so muchfor being on today's episode and
again, I will put all of yourinformation in the show notes
(56:53):
below.
So if you want to reach out toMargie, feel free and even
connect your Instagram and yourwebsite.
Margy Schaller (57:00):
Beautiful.
Thank you so much, and thankyou for really making a space
for this conversation, because Ibelieve that many people grow
up in some form of dysfunctionor another and we don't have the
tools to heal until we figureout even what's going on yeah,
(57:20):
especially too, about this topicright, because again, it's like
you carry on somebody else'sshame.
Courtney Andersen (57:28):
I will just put this when I had and I'm sure
you're even the way you talkedabout your mom, it was not in a
blame situation, it was not in ayou did this right, like it was
in a very caring, loving wayand respectful way, and how I
(57:49):
have talked about my parents onthis space.
For the most part I wouldprobably say about 90% I have
been respectful, because they'restill on this planet and even
when they're not, I don't thinkthat I'm going to truly go there
, right, because that was theirstory.
But this is my perspective andthis is what happened to me and
(58:10):
how I came out of that chaos,and I can speak my truth when it
comes to that, and I wantpeople to be able to do that
within themselves.
That came from dysfunction.
You can still have arelationship with a parent even
if you came from dysfunction,but it can be very much a
boundary and one that now youmake on your terms that feels
(58:34):
right for you, and then, if youdon't ever want to have a
relationship with them, that'sfine.
I mean, I just that theserelationships they're very
complicated, yeah, and it's notall black and white.
There's a lot of gray area ofthis, so much gray area, but
what's important is just thatyou, as that adult child, heal
yourself and go on that journeyand work through that stuff.
Margy Schaller (58:58):
Thank you for having me, Courtney.
Courtney Andersen (59:00):
Thank you next time.
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