August 14, 2025 • 38 mins
In episode 237 of the Sober Vibes podcast, I welcome Michael E. Long, coauthor of the international bestseller The Molecule of More and author of the new follow-up, Taming the Molecule of More. Michael explains how alcohol hijacks our brain’s reward system and shares practical, science-backed strategies to rewire it for a more balanced, fulfilling life.
Dopamine doesn’t create happiness—it drives anticipation and desire. That’s why understanding it is central to breaking free from alcohol and building lasting sobriety.
What you will learn in this episode:
- Why dopamine is the neurotransmitter that makes us want more rather than enjoy what we have
- How alcohol and other addictive substances flood the brain with artificial dopamine, rewiring your reward system
- The surprising ways modern technology triggers similar dopamine-driven anticipation patterns
- Why recovery requires replacing dopamine-seeking behaviors with “here-and-now” experiences
- How finding deeper meaning is essential for long-term sobriety and satisfaction
- Simple daily practices like listing victories and practicing presence can rewire your reward pathways
- Why rebalancing dopamine starts within days but continues as a lifelong process
If you’ve ever felt restless, joyless, or like something is “missing” in early sobriety, this episode will help you understand why and give you a clear path toward lasting fulfillment.
Connect with Michael E. Long:
Resources Mentioned:
The After-Emotional Sobriety Guide
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney Andersen (00:11):
Alcohol didn't just change your habits.
It rewired your brain's rewardsystem.
The chemical behind it alldopamine and the key to
long-term sobriety is learninghow to tame it.
Hey, welcome back to the SoberVibes podcast.
I am your host and sober coach,courtney Anderson.
Thank you for being here today.
If you're new here, welcome,and if you are an OG, thank you
(00:35):
for continuing to tune in.
So when I first got sober, Ididn't realize how much alcohol
had hijacked my brain's rewardsystem.
Every drink was giving my brainan artificial flood of dopamine
.
That's the feel-good chemical,and over time my brain learned
to crave that shortcut overeverything else.
But here's the thing Lastingjoy, connection and purpose
(00:59):
doesn't just come from thosequick hits.
They come from rewiring how weexperience reward and finding
meaning beyond the next dopaminespike.
I think this topic is sofascinating, and dopamine really
wasn't talked about when Ifirst got sober.
So this is something I havereally learned throughout the
years and especially too in thelast probably since I became a
(01:21):
mom of retraining my brain.
Really I'm getting more intothis topic.
So I have a great guest fortoday's show.
I'm joined by Michael E Long,and he's the co-author of the
international bestseller theMolecule of More, and he is the
sole author of his brand newfollow-up book, taming the
Molecule of More.
(01:42):
Michael has spent yearsexploring how dopamine drives
our behavior and, moreimportantly, how we can manage
it in ways that actually serveus.
In this conversation, we breakdown what dopamine is, how it
gets hijacked by substances likealcohol, and the practical
steps you can take to retrainyour brain so you can fully
(02:04):
enjoy life in sobriety.
Have you ever wondered whythose early months can feel flat
or restless or joyless?
This episode will connect thedots and give you tools to
create a more fulfilling,balanced, alcohol-free life.
And if you're ready to divedeeper, beyond listening and
into real change, you don't haveto do it alone.
(02:24):
You can work with me on myone-on-one and my sober coaching
program, where we create a plantailored to your unique needs,
or join the sobriety circle, mycommunity for women in the first
years of sobriety who wantsupport, accountabilities and
tools to thrive.
I love those ladies dearly.
You can find both links in theshow notes below and I would
(02:45):
love to walk this journey withyou.
So enjoy today's episode.
I will put all of Michael'sinformation in the show notes,
as always.
Feel free to reach out to me onSober Vibes on my Instagram
page or email me your thoughtson today's episode.
As always, keep on trucking andstay healthy out there.
Hey, michael, welcome to theSober Vibes podcast.
(03:07):
I'm very excited to have you onthe show today and to talk
about dopamine.
Michael E Long (03:15):
It's good to be here.
Thanks for having me.
So how did you get started inthis topic?
I'm trained as a physicist andI worked in that realm of tech
and science for many years.
I did my graduate work in thatas well, and so neuroscience
seems like a big jump.
But in fact I have a very closefriend who I wrote another book
(03:37):
with called the Molecule of More, dan Lieberman, who's a
psychiatrist one of the leadingpsychiatrists in the nation
actually and we thought we werehaving talks.
He was teaching me a lot aboutneuroscience, about
neurotransmitters, about thebehavioral connections and about
the connection to addiction,especially in the problems that
people face in real time.
(03:58):
To get to your question, wesaid, now that we're both sort
of well-versed in this, nowlet's see what we can do to put
something out there to makeeverybody be able to understand
this, because this topic oughtto be accessible, the notion
that there is a real andhelpful-to-know connection
(04:19):
between our neurobiology and theway we feel and act and
struggle.
That book didn't exist and wesaid we could do that, so that's
how we came to it.
It's really this desire toexplain something we found so
helpful and exciting toourselves.
Courtney Andersen (04:34):
So there was a book.
So I have the Taming of theMolecule of More and then this
one just recently came out, butthe one before that was the
Molecule of More, correct?
Michael E Long (04:44):
That's right, and since you can see me, I'll
show you.
This is the book from 2018.
Dan and I wrote this togetherand this explains the science of
dopamine.
Dopamine turns out to be notthe molecule of happiness, but
the molecule that makes you wantand anticipate, which is, of
course, at the heart ofaddiction and craving.
The first book explains thescience.
The second book, which I wroteby myself, a little input from
(05:10):
Dr Dan, is about specific thingsyou can do right now to stop
hurting and get better and dealwith this day-to-day struggle of
behavioral addiction, chemicaladdiction, the modern world and
how it draws us to not enjoy themoment so much anymore.
Courtney Andersen (05:24):
I know because I mean with smartphones,
and I do have to say thisbecause it's just free.
I'm not going to say everybody,but majority of people.
What would you say would be thepercentage of people being
addicted to your cell phone?
Michael E Long (05:37):
Well, I'm going to be careful with that word
addiction, because I don't wantto say that it's pathological,
necessarily, but it feels, andby pathological of course I mean
as a diagnosed condition ordisease.
I'd say everyone has a problemwith it and those who don't are
living some sort of Supermanlife that the rest of us will
never know.
But in all seriousness, it is aconstant attraction and the
(06:05):
question of whether it's aproblem or not is really up to
the individual.
Is it costing you time?
You'd rather spend doingsomething else?
Is it sucking away your mentalenergy that could be better
spent on your work, your familyor another kind of fun and
enjoyment?
But the real problem with it,the thing that sets it apart, is
when you're engaged with adopaminergic activity like the
(06:28):
phone.
You're not enjoying the moment.
You think you are, and I'llexplain why that's not the case.
What you're actually doing isyou're engaged in anticipation
and hope.
When you scroll, you're hoping.
You're believing that somethingjust below the bottom of the
screen is going to be soexciting, so fulfilling.
(06:49):
You're not enjoying looking atthe screen.
You're enjoying the feelingthat what you see next might be
enjoyable.
It's a subtle but crispdistinction in practice.
Courtney Andersen (07:02):
Yeah yeah, distinction in practice.
Yeah yeah, because nowadayswith that I mean this is the
whole the cellular phone is awhole new beast, right, and
we're seeing that the youngerkids get it, the worse off it is
of waiting now till what?
I think it's kids maybe beinglike 13 with the cell phone.
I follow a page where it's waituntil eight.
So I think maybe 13, 14, ofgetting them a smartphone.
(07:26):
But I do have to say I'm goingback.
I have not, I never noticed ituntil I had a child, and so my
kid's three and a half.
And now it's if I'm on thephone right sitting there
scrolling and he's playing or hewants my attention.
I haven't noticed thosebehaviors until recently, I
(07:47):
would say up until about two anda half on, because he with kids
, they're so very present andthey just want your attention,
right?
Definitely he has shed a lighton more of my usage than I
thought.
Michael E Long (08:03):
Well it is.
I want to put a fine point onthis, finer than I did, is that
when I say it's not apleasurable activity, that's not
to say there's not somepleasure in anticipation, but
that's different from consumingsomething.
The way a piece of cake tastesin your mouth, the way a movie
makes you feel in the moment.
(08:23):
That's what we'll call a hereand now pleasure, and that
involves literally and I don'tlike that word because it's
overused, but in this case it iscorrect that involves literally
all the other neurotransmittersystems in your brain.
But dopamine, scrolling downthe screen, pulling the handle
on a slot machine which is thesame thing really, and we can
(08:44):
talk about that those areanticipatory pleasures.
That is hoping that somethingmight feel good in the future,
but you don't come away withanything.
You just have this anticipationthat something might be better
in the future, and that's why weget hooked on.
Well, I don't want to get aheadof myself.
The bottom line is dopamine isone neurotransmitter out of many
(09:07):
, but it's the only one thatsimply drives us to want more
than we have right now.
It doesn't allow us to besatisfied with what's in front
of us.
Think about how this flowsprofessionally.
I remember that when I wanted to, I'm a writer, primarily here
in Washington DC.
That when I wanted to, I'm awriter, I'm here in Washington
(09:27):
DC.
And I remember wanting.
My dream job was to writespeeches on Capitol Hill for a
United States senator.
I wanted that so much and thenI got it.
And after a few months I waslike, well, this is pretty good,
what else is there?
And I wanted another, the nextstep up, and I got that.
I ended up freelancing and Ithought, oh, I wonder if I could
(09:50):
end up at the White House.
Could I write speeches there?
So I'm pursuing that.
Wherever you are in life, youwant the next thing up.
But on your way to it, youimagine that the goal you're
headed for is going to be thething that makes you.
It's going to be the thing thatmakes you so happy.
And dopamine drives us to thenext thing.
(10:11):
If you live in a tent, you'dlove to have an apartment.
If you live in an apartment,you'd love to have a house.
If you have a house, you want abigger house or a castle, and
if you have a castle, you wantto live on the moon.
We always want more.
And then, when we get the thingwe're chasing, we don't often
stop to enjoy it, and that's oneof the saddest costs of being
(10:36):
addicted to a compound, asubstance of behavior is that we
don't stop to enjoy the thingwe strove so hard to get.
Courtney Andersen (10:44):
Well, how do you then suggest to stop and
smell?
Michael E Long (10:46):
the roses.
Courtney Andersen (10:47):
To stop and enjoy it, because that is
something I that of what youjust described.
That is something that Ilearned in my sobriety right,
where I thought all the thingswere what brought me happiness,
but as I evolved and the yearswent on, it's that doesn't mean
shit to me.
Michael E Long (11:05):
Yeah, it just was one of those things that I
was like this doesn't bring mehappiness, when I thought that
it did well, I'll say thatthere's a lot to say here and I
and there's a whole podcast,basically the whole discipline,
to talk about craving and that'sthe thing that that people who
are dealing with addiction haveto fight more than anything,
when you you're addicted toalcohol, or let's even just say
(11:28):
when you have a serious problemwith alcohol, it takes more and
more to feel less and less.
Now, that ought to, if youthink about it for just a moment
.
That ought to be enough tobreak the addiction, because if
you have to work harder and it'sfeeling less and less, you go
screw that.
I don't need that in my lifeanymore.
But that's not what happens,because although the pleasure
diminishes, the craving stayshigh, and that, of course, is
(11:51):
the engine of addiction.
So your question is what can wedo to find some comfort out of
this, to find some way out?
Well, the first thing I have tosay is if you're dealing with
addiction, you deserve and youcan have some relief in the
moment.
That's the first thing I haveto say is if you're dealing with
addiction, you deserve and youcan have some relief in the
moment.
That's the first thing to getto In my book, which is not
about alcohol explicitly, butabout the dopaminergic process
(12:14):
behind it and the various,especially behavioral addictions
that we talk about.
The first thing is to acquirehabits and support so you're not
fighting this thing constantly,every minute.
Whether that's anaccountability partner which I
know, people who deal withalcohol do that a lot using
technology to block yourselffrom certain activities,
planning for the moment whentriggers appear, things that
(12:37):
many people in your audiencealready know.
Deal with that.
But there's a second part tothis is just because you defeat
the addictive feeling in themoment doesn't mean that you're
out of the woods, because if youpush away the addictive or the
dopamine-driven problem in themoment, you've created a gap.
(12:58):
Something has to fill that gapand something will fill that gap
.
What we'd like to do first isfill it with here and now
activities that give us pleasurein the moment.
I think it was William Soroyanwho said when you eat just
voraciously, when you laugh likehell, when you fight hard, when
(13:20):
you cry, scream and weep, getinto the moment, feel through
all five senses what it isthat's happening, and that'll
take you about 60% of the way.
Even that can grow boring.
Yes, the real answer is in.
Well, I'm not going to use thatphrase, which is simply not
going to say it in my book.
Courtney Andersen (13:43):
Because there is, I mean, but in a part of
addiction there's people.
It's a chaos.
So it's right, of what you'resaying, that it could.
It's like that could growboring, right, right.
Michael E Long (13:53):
Oh yeah, and that's the and that's the, and
that's where what I think mybook does, that doesn't get
talked about enough.
I hope.
I would love nothing more thanto be proven wrong.
But let me tell you the hereand now activities that you
replace it with need to pointtowards something greater.
There are three ideas inpsychotherapy, three major
(14:15):
Viennese psychotherapeutic ideas.
One is what Sigmund Freud said.
Sigmund Freud said we chasepleasure.
Alfred Adler said we chasepower, and you probably haven't
heard that name.
Viktor Frankl Now, a lot ofaddiction.
People have heard it, but a lotof other people haven't.
And Frankl said we need meaning, and that's the thing that
(14:38):
lacks the emphasis in the modernworld.
So if you're going to get thedopaminergic activities at bay
and replace them with things inthe here and now that allow you
to enjoy the moment, as ithappens, choose things that do
three goals at once.
One is find something you enjoy.
Number two, make sure that it'ssomething you're good at.
(15:01):
And number three, ensure thatit's a thing that is
contributing to your own senseof virtue in the Aristotelian
sense.
That is, justice or kindness,or grace or liberty.
I'm not talking about socialjustice, I'm talking about
(15:23):
higher truths, and these can bevery simple.
It's one thing to say, well,I'll play chess or I'll play
checkers or whatever during myoff time, or I'll but what is it
that you enjoy, that you'regood at and that we can say in
shorthand, helps somebody else?
And here's how simple it can be.
Let's say that you're a plumber.
You're a damn good plumber, youreally like plumbing, and when
(15:46):
you do the job it's fixed.
That's good enough.
Right there You're helpingother people with the thing that
you do best.
Let's say you're this is myfavorite example is the lunch
lady.
Let's say you're the lunch lady.
You like working at the schoolbecause you like being around
kids.
You're really good at the thing.
You're the smiling lunch ladythat puts it on the plate, and
(16:07):
these kids look forward toseeing you every day.
My God, what a wonderful way tospend your life.
What a wonderful way to spendyour life.
And that's the sort of thingthat can fill and expand, to
fill that space that's leftbehind when we stop the dopamine
chase.
And stopping the dopamine chaseis so damn hard, it is so
(16:29):
difficult.
So my book says first I knowit's hard, let me give you
specific things you can do thatdon't say, oh, just be tough,
just more self-discipline.
Well, that's going to run out.
Right, right, I'll give youthings in the book that'll help
you get past that.
And then I say let's do nothingless than find meaning in our
lives and let's abandon thisstupid idea that meaning has to
(16:50):
be caught up in a lifetime ofmonk-like study of philosophy.
You're good at it, you'rehaving a good time, you're
giving something back that'sgoing to begin to fill you.
Some people find it throughreligion, through finding,
through Christianity.
Those are perfectly valid waysto do it, but as long as you're
chasing now meaning, you'vetouched on the thing that drives
(17:14):
us as core human beings.
Courtney Andersen (17:16):
Yeah.
Michael E Long (17:17):
That's how we get through it.
Courtney Andersen (17:18):
Yes, absolutely.
My son does swim and his swimcoach is an older lady who does
it one day a week.
She works, but she does it oneday a week because she calls it
her therapy.
That's good enough.
You know what I mean.
And I was like you are right,Coach Ann, I spend my Tuesdays
with these kids teaching themhow to swim.
(17:39):
Like it doesn't get better thanthat.
And I was like you're correct,you are correct.
What, though, one thing that youcould recommend, though, or one
thing of besides what you justsaid, but of the stop of the
chasing dopamine, of besideswhat you just said, but of the
stop of the chasing dopamine.
Michael E Long (18:00):
Sure, Well, let's take this down two paths.
In the book and I mentionedthis just because that's how my
brain organizes the material Iwould love for people to buy the
book.
If you don't buy the book, goto the library and get it.
I'm not necessarily here justto sell books.
Courtney Andersen (18:08):
My audience, the good people of the world, is
what I call them.
They will get your book,because this is one thing that
they should be reading about,because I think too, when you
take it from a science approachof understanding, that it
translates better.
Michael E Long (18:22):
Yeah, Science is such a turnoff for so many
people and that's part of thereason that I wrote this book is
when I'm not writing about.
What I write about, I ghostwrite a lot of books.
I ghostwrite memoirs forcomedians and business people,
and I've written over 20 stageplays that have been produced,
mostly in New York, and so mything is, science in particular
(18:46):
is so fascinating.
If somebody will stop and makeit fun for you, if they'll make
it interesting for you, I willvery immodestly say if you liked
the Malcolm Gladwell book,you'll like this book, because
it's the same sort of approach,only with a little snarkier
attitude.
Courtney Andersen (19:00):
I like the snarky.
Michael E Long (19:02):
I've wandered from your question.
What are you asking?
What are the things that peoplecan do?
Courtney Andersen (19:08):
Hey, good people of the world.
It's Courtney, and if you're inyour first year or your fifth
year of sobriety, let's be real.
Summers can be tough, like avery, very, very challenging.
It took me a couple summers tofinally feel comfortable.
There's something about warmweather, parties and poolside
drinks that can make it feellike everybody's drinking but
(19:30):
you.
But just because drinkingculture ramps up, especially
during this time, doesn't meanyour progress has to slow down.
That's where a tool likeSoberLink can help.
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(19:52):
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(20:13):
you stay the course of yourjourney.
I've witnessed people benefitfrom Soberlink and I want you to
be the next.
Visit wwwsoberlinkcom.
Forward slash sober dash vibesto sign up and receive 50% off
your device today.
You can also check the link inthe show notes below today.
(20:36):
You can also check the link inthe show notes below yeah, what
are the things they can do tostop chasing dopamine?
Even if it's just twosuggestions?
Michael E Long (20:39):
Sure, sure.
Well, let's pick out particularactivities and let's say, on
the matter of oh, let's say whatwe were talking about scrolling
on that phone.
Yeah, the place to begin numberone is to recognize, to sit
down and say, for the next halfhour, the next 10 minutes, the
next five minutes, I'm going tothink about what this problem is
(21:00):
and what I'm going to do aboutit.
And you say, okay, I know, I'vedecided I'm spending time on
the phone, that I want to spenddoing something else, whatever
that thing is.
So the first thing you can dois ask yourself when is it that
this feeling triggers you themost often?
Okay, is it when you're?
(21:20):
I don't know, let's just behonest when you're going to the
bathroom?
Is that when you sit there andscroll through the phone?
Is it when you're eating thelunch by yourself?
Is it?
Is it when you're sitting inthe car and you're riding and
your spouse or your partner,whoever is driving?
Is that when you do it?
And then you say are thesetimes I want to do something
else?
Courtney Andersen (21:38):
Yeah.
Michael E Long (21:39):
If that's it, you say, okay, I recognize what
those times are.
Now, what else could I do?
See, you have to have somethingin the chamber.
You have to have somethingready so you can say I'm going
to read this book, or I'm goingto make a list, or I'm going to
draw of things I have to do, orI'm going to journal, or I'm
going to draw a picture of thethings that I see.
Don't be afraid to saysomething stupid, ladies and
(22:00):
gentlemen, good people of theworld.
Don't fear looking stupid.
Ain't nobody watching, but you.
Okay.
So make a list of three or four.
Don't make a list where you gota big problem.
Now which one?
the lists that I do pick one ortwo things keep it simple and
say you know what, instead ofscrolling on when that trigger
comes, I'm going to recognize itand say, oh, I would scroll on
my phone, but actually I'm goingto read this book that I have,
(22:22):
that I'm carrying this littlepaperback with me and I'm going
to read three pages and thenI'll call it done, and this way
you have a thing ready to go inyour hand.
It's so simple in description,but the thing is that's its
power.
You're no longer fighting thewhole screaming wall of
dopaminergic pressure to scrolland see what's next.
(22:45):
You've already made thedecision before you got there
and you do it.
And you know what.
If you want to say I'm going toread three pages and then I'm
going to go back and scroll onmy phone, fine, any improvement
at all is improvement.
It's a step beyond where youare, and you're going to find
that when you immerse yourselfin these non-dopaminergic
(23:08):
activities, your brain is doingsomething very different.
It's no longer thinking what isnext, what is next Instead of
saying what is next, what isnext Instead of saying what is
now, what do I feel.
And that is a wonderful placeto be, and you can cultivate
just by doing the pleasure yougain from being in the here and
(23:28):
now, when Warren Zevon and thoseare my two ideas- I love it
when Warren Zeivon Warren Zivonmaybe not well known to your
audience, but he's worthexploring very much.
Wonderful musician.
Courtney Andersen (23:40):
And did you ever see that?
Nothing put me into tears.
Quite like there was adocumentary when he was dying
that they did on VH1.
When VH1 used to have stufflike that.
And, oh my God, thatdocumentary just hit my soul.
Michael E Long (23:59):
Well, you probably know what I'm going to
say.
Then Warren hated doctors andhis doctor, he said, was his
dentist.
So he would go to his dentistand get his teeth worked on and
he'd describe his other symptoms.
And one day his dentist saidyou better go get that checked
out.
It turned out to be terminalcancer and so it was a terrible
tragedy Died too young.
But here's where I'm getting,to Warren.
(24:19):
Let's be happy that Warren evenlived.
What a wonderful musician hewas.
He was on Letterman and he wasgoing to be dead very soon.
And David Letterman said whatdid you learn?
What do you have to share?
And warren paused and he saidenjoy every sandwich.
(24:41):
Oh, and people laughed and hekind of smiled and it didn't so.
Much of this hasn't come clearto me until years later, but now
I understand because of this.
He was saying all you have isthe moment you're in yeah enjoy
every sandwich.
Can I tell you a little morething in that vein, because I
love telling this one other?
Courtney Andersen (24:59):
thing, please do.
Michael E Long (25:01):
My best friend died at age 39.
And he was born to die.
He was born with diabetes inthe 1960s and that was a death
sentence at that time.
He made it 39 years and at hisfuneral a guy named Chris White,
actually a pastor, said I knowa lot of you are sitting here
thinking about Kent and youcan't remember the stuff you did
(25:25):
with him and you're frustrated.
And he said that's okay becauseit happened.
And I thought what the helldoes that even mean?
It happened.
I was a little bit angry andthen time passed and I got it
and let me make it clear to youif it's not clear to you right
(25:46):
now, the rest of you listeningis that all he said was when you
were with Kent you had a goodtime.
And you don't remember it now,but that's okay Because while it
was happening it was so muchfun.
And that moment is what you have.
Think back on your own life,about your childhood or your
early years of your marriage orwhatever joyful thing you have.
(26:09):
Think back on that and now tryto reconstruct it scene by scene
.
Well, you can't do it.
You don't remember very much,but while it was happening it
was wonderful.
Yeah, that's all we have, right, that's all we have is this
moment.
You and I won't remember everydetail of this conversation.
No, but while we're having it.
(26:30):
I don't know about you, but I'mgoing to go out on a limb and
say this is a very enjoyableconversation.
I love it.
I love this conversation, andthat's effing enough.
Courtney Andersen (26:39):
Yes, absolutely.
Michael E Long (26:41):
That's so much better than saying what if next?
What's next, what's next?
I've got to get through this.
I then saying what if next?
What's next, what's next?
I got to get through this.
I got to finish meal so I canget to dessert, because
dessert's going to be great.
Got to finish dessert so we canget back to the movie.
No, this dessert is delicious,this entree is delicious.
This conversation is wonderful.
I won't remember it, but I'mhere now.
Courtney Andersen (26:57):
Right.
I have an affirmation that Isay that a friend gave to me
years ago when I had really badanxiety, and it is an
affirmation of it.
You just say I'm exactly whereI need to be right now and even
after my stint of really badanxiety I kept with it because
it was something that has alwayskept me in the present.
(27:19):
And a couple of weeks ago myson had a Mother's Day thing at
his school and it kind of gotthrown off my game because I
thought I was just going hewould stay, but it was a half
day.
And it kind of got thrown off mygame because I thought I was
just going he would stay, but itwas a half day and going there,
I was like, oh man, I got allof these things to do, right,
this threw me off with my day.
What am I going to do with this?
And then when I got there andsaw the setup and we were
(27:42):
playing and having tea and hewas getting me cookies on a
plate, I just I had to keep thatin mind, I had to bring that
out and it is.
It's something where it's likethere's always the next thing
that you can get to or the nextstep, but it really truly isn't
just about enjoying that presentmoment For you.
How did you get to that pointof being in the now?
Michael E Long (28:07):
I'm not very good at it.
Courtney Andersen (28:08):
You seem like you are.
Michael E Long (28:10):
I'm trying.
I'm a Christian.
I like to say I'm a shittyChristian.
I'm pretty bad at that, and Iheard Stephen Colbert say that
one time and I was like I'm nottoo crazy about you, stephen
Colbert, but I like your phrasethere.
That was pretty good.
I'm not very good at much ofanything, except maybe writing
and speaking.
I think I'm pretty good atthose things.
But to live in the moment it'san effort and I guess I do have
(28:33):
an answer for you.
How do I do it?
Whatever I do is good enough.
I'm trying.
There's a Buddhist idea that youtouched on right then.
It's about you are where you'resupposed to be right now, and
in Buddhism the idea is youreally don't have much choice in
the first place.
It's going to lead you whereyou go and you don't have to be
a Buddhist to buy into that idea.
You can even just accept thatthis is where I'm supposed to be
(28:57):
and even if you don't like that, if this is where you are, well
, here you are, this is whereyou are, deal with it.
Can't change that.
So for me, I'd say the way thatI deal with it is I try to
remind myself number one,because this is sort of the airy
part of it is, I try to remindmyself this is what I can do at
(29:18):
the moment.
It may not even be everything Ican do at the moment, but it's
what I am doing, it's what I'vedecided to do in the moment and
that's good enough.
The other thing that I've doneis I've harnessed this dopamine
desire for the next thing byusing my calendar in a unique
way.
Every day.
I have a list of things toaccomplish and it's broken up
into categories.
(29:38):
I have my exercise section, Ihave my personal examination
section, I have my sometimes wedo this once a week or once a
month, and I have some things wedo every day.
And as I achieve those things,big or small, I change the color
from blue to green and that wayI have this little thing to
look forward to during the dayto pull me toward the next thing
(29:59):
, and while I'm doing the thing,I try to enjoy it.
So this way I get the balancebetween the dopaminergic pull me
forward and the here and now ofenjoy where you are.
And although that doesn't speakdirectly to the bracing problem
of addiction, it does speak tohow we might live in recovery.
Courtney Andersen (30:21):
Yeah Well, I have to say lately, as of the
past couple of months, I'vebecome more of a fan of some
lists not like list of thousandthings to do in a day because
that is overwhelming and listsused to overwhelm me and I would
get mad if I didn't do it.
But now it's just like you werejust saying it's just a couple
of simple things to do and Ifeel so satisfied checking them
(30:42):
off.
Michael E Long (30:43):
Oh, it's great.
And then you look back after afew months I've got several
years of this and I look backand go, oh, look at all I did.
Let me give your audience a funthing to do.
That is easy and very it's justI'm going to use the word a
little sarcastically here it'salmost addictive.
Okay, every morning I write downthree victories from the day
(31:05):
before.
I used to, when I was trying tofigure out how to label it.
It would be oh, what are threethings you did?
Or three things youaccomplished, and I was like, no
, let's make it positive, let'ssay victories.
So every morning I write downthree victories from the day
before, and sometimes they'revery simple.
Most of the time they're verysimple.
Oh, I had dinner with my wifeat the barbecue place and that
(31:25):
was fun Victory.
I got to see my daughter give atalk somewhere.
That was my daughter the doctor, my daughter the PhD.
I got to listen to her give atalk.
That's a victory.
I got a lot of administrativework done.
That's a victory.
Just three every day.
And then every Tuesday I goback and look at the previous
week and read them.
Oh, I'm moving forward, Ienjoyed what I did.
(31:48):
I got shit done.
That's pretty good.
Courtney Andersen (31:51):
Yeah, that is a good one.
That's a good one and two thatmakes you live in a positive
space.
Michael E Long (31:58):
It keeps me focused on what ought to matter
which is the here and now andthe effort to the effort to just
be better to other people.
There's all this anger in theworld right now and I think it's
.
I think it's this there's asaying among conservative
political types it is don'teminentize the eschaton.
(32:21):
Don't eminentize the eschatonand what that means in non
William F Buckley languageSomebody had to explain it to me
.
Courtney Andersen (32:27):
I heard that means in non-William F Buckley
language.
I was going to ask you whatthat means.
Michael E Long (32:29):
Somebody had to explain it to me.
I heard that I said what doesthat mean?
Don't eminentize the.
Don't make eminent what is thefuture.
Don't decide that what'stomorrow is more important than
what is today.
And so here we are, in a worldwhere we are fighting for
something better, ostensibly,and that's a noble thing to do,
(32:51):
but we don't have to hate otherpeople to do it.
If we start with the assumptionthat people don't hate us, that
people want good things, thatthey just have a different path
to get there, are there badpeople?
Of course there are.
Of course there are bad people.
But let's start from.
Let's give them the benefit ofthe doubt first, and then move
forward and talk about a way torealign your heart with your
(33:11):
goals.
Don't assume you're going toget your heart broken.
Lead with your heart.
If your heart gets broken, yourheart gets broken.
But what a sad way to gothrough life just to assume
everybody's about to screw youover.
Courtney Andersen (33:22):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
I do want to ask you one morequestion before we wrap up this
conversation Is there a timeframe where how long it takes
for your brain to rewire itselfI should say after quitting
drinking, like with the dopamineafter one of these behaviors,
(33:45):
right?
Is there a time frame or is itjust everybody's different on
when that kind of balances itout, where your brain rebalances
?
Michael E Long (33:55):
Well, I have to stress, I'm not a physician and
so I don't want to offersomething to say.
This is oh, this is theabsolute rule.
So, let me talk about it interms of things I am qualified
to talk about, which is in thebehavior space.
It ain't going to happen in aday, but after a few days of the
kind of practices I talk aboutin this book, you will begin to
(34:16):
see a difference.
And if you don't quit becausethere are varieties of
experience maybe it will takeyou two weeks before you
significantly feel it, but itprobably won't.
Within two or three days you'regoing to begin to feel this
particular thing, which is areduction in the pressure you
put on yourself to chase thatnext thing.
And that's going to be true.
(34:37):
No matter how far gone you feellike you are with this problem,
you will start to get better,and the reason we can't say, oh,
this will be done at this dateis because it's never done.
It's never done.
It is, as everyone listening tothis who's dealing with
addiction knows.
It's a lifetime of usingstrategies to get better and
(35:00):
stay better, which is not thesame as saying it's always going
to be a terrible struggle.
For some people it is, but itdoesn't have to be for everybody
.
And when it becomes habit, itceases to be a struggle, it
becomes part of the wonderfulwallpaper that we live inside.
Courtney Andersen (35:17):
Yeah, and about that strategy I do have to
say that is so true, just frommy experience.
I have my things that I do inmy morning time that have built
my foundation right, whetherit's my meditation, gratitude
and reading some pages ofwhatever book I'm reading and
(35:37):
that has grounded me.
Now, when I had my son and myworld was flipped upside down in
those first couple months and Istopped, stopped doing that and
then add on sleep deprivation,I will have to say sleep was
very important.
Michael E Long (35:52):
That was one of my foundations as well.
Courtney Andersen (35:54):
Right, and so when that was flipped upside
down, within a short couple ofmonths I was starting to get
wonky, or like my eye wasstarting to twitch and I was
like I see why moms drink.
During this time, drinkingstarted to sound good again and
that's when I had to catchmyself and be like I need to get
(36:15):
back to doing my stuff to keepme grounded in that sense.
So I do agree with you with thestrategies and those tools that
you put in place do really help.
Michael E Long (36:25):
They do, they do they help over time.
And how?
About a moment just to say thatbeing a mother is such an
important job that is now almostreduced to cliche.
Well, of course, let's have ahand for the mothers.
No, let's look at what theyfrigging do every day.
That's a demanding job, rightthere.
That is an exhausting job.
It's a noble job, sure, butit's often a thankless job, at
(36:48):
least in the short run.
And if a woman decides this ishow I'm going to spend my life,
I'm going to bring a family intothe world.
That's going to matter a hellof a lot more than most jobs.
Congratulations for making thatdecision to anybody who does
that.
Bravo to you.
Courtney Andersen (37:01):
Thank you.
I mean, I agree, this past weekI just referred to my son as
the dictator.
It's just a joke, sort of yeah.
But I mean you have kids, youunderstand these early years,
but he was sick for two days andit's just, it makes me laugh,
but it's like you really trulyare somebody's bitch.
(37:21):
And both those nights I put himto bed and I was sleeping by
eight o'clock because I was justso tired.
So thank you for saying that,though, about moms.
But it is, it is true.
Well, you know what I'm walkingaway from this conversation.
I'm not going to remember allthat we said, but the feeling
that I will take because thiswas an excellent conversation
(37:42):
and you were great to talk tothe feeling I will take will
last me, is what I will rememberfrom this conversation.
Michael E Long (37:49):
That's wonderful .
It's Taming the Molecule ofMore.
My name is Michael E Long.
You can find it at Amazon,anywhere books are sold,
published by Ben Bella,distributed by Simon Schuster,
and you can read more at mywebsite, tamingthemoleculecom.
Okay.
Courtney Andersen (38:04):
And I will put all of your information in
the show notes, and thank you somuch for taking the time and
talking with us today.
Michael E Long (38:11):
Thanks so much.
Alcohol didn't just change your habits.
It rewired your brain's rewardsystem.
The chemical behind it alldopamine and the key to
long-term sobriety is learninghow to tame it.
Hey, welcome back to the SoberVibes podcast.
I am your host and sober coach,courtney Anderson.
Thank you for being here today.
If you're new here, welcome,and if you are an OG, thank you
(00:35):
for continuing to tune in.
So when I first got sober, Ididn't realize how much alcohol
had hijacked my brain's rewardsystem.
Every drink was giving my brainan artificial flood of dopamine
.
That's the feel-good chemical,and over time my brain learned
to crave that shortcut overeverything else.
But here's the thing Lastingjoy, connection and purpose
(00:59):
doesn't just come from thosequick hits.
They come from rewiring how weexperience reward and finding
meaning beyond the next dopaminespike.
I think this topic is sofascinating, and dopamine really
wasn't talked about when Ifirst got sober.
So this is something I havereally learned throughout the
years and especially too in thelast probably since I became a
(01:21):
mom of retraining my brain.
Really I'm getting more intothis topic.
So I have a great guest fortoday's show.
I'm joined by Michael E Long,and he's the co-author of the
international bestseller theMolecule of More, and he is the
sole author of his brand newfollow-up book, taming the
Molecule of More.
(01:42):
Michael has spent yearsexploring how dopamine drives
our behavior and, moreimportantly, how we can manage
it in ways that actually serveus.
In this conversation, we breakdown what dopamine is, how it
gets hijacked by substances likealcohol, and the practical
steps you can take to retrainyour brain so you can fully
(02:04):
enjoy life in sobriety.
Have you ever wondered whythose early months can feel flat
or restless or joyless?
This episode will connect thedots and give you tools to
create a more fulfilling,balanced, alcohol-free life.
And if you're ready to divedeeper, beyond listening and
into real change, you don't haveto do it alone.
(02:24):
You can work with me on myone-on-one and my sober coaching
program, where we create a plantailored to your unique needs,
or join the sobriety circle, mycommunity for women in the first
years of sobriety who wantsupport, accountabilities and
tools to thrive.
I love those ladies dearly.
You can find both links in theshow notes below and I would
(02:45):
love to walk this journey withyou.
So enjoy today's episode.
I will put all of Michael'sinformation in the show notes,
as always.
Feel free to reach out to me onSober Vibes on my Instagram
page or email me your thoughtson today's episode.
As always, keep on trucking andstay healthy out there.
Hey, michael, welcome to theSober Vibes podcast.
(03:07):
I'm very excited to have you onthe show today and to talk
about dopamine.
Michael E Long (03:15):
It's good to be here.
Thanks for having me.
So how did you get started inthis topic?
I'm trained as a physicist andI worked in that realm of tech
and science for many years.
I did my graduate work in thatas well, and so neuroscience
seems like a big jump.
But in fact I have a very closefriend who I wrote another book
(03:37):
with called the Molecule of More, dan Lieberman, who's a
psychiatrist one of the leadingpsychiatrists in the nation
actually and we thought we werehaving talks.
He was teaching me a lot aboutneuroscience, about
neurotransmitters, about thebehavioral connections and about
the connection to addiction,especially in the problems that
people face in real time.
(03:58):
To get to your question, wesaid, now that we're both sort
of well-versed in this, nowlet's see what we can do to put
something out there to makeeverybody be able to understand
this, because this topic oughtto be accessible, the notion
that there is a real andhelpful-to-know connection
(04:19):
between our neurobiology and theway we feel and act and
struggle.
That book didn't exist and wesaid we could do that, so that's
how we came to it.
It's really this desire toexplain something we found so
helpful and exciting toourselves.
Courtney Andersen (04:34):
So there was a book.
So I have the Taming of theMolecule of More and then this
one just recently came out, butthe one before that was the
Molecule of More, correct?
Michael E Long (04:44):
That's right, and since you can see me, I'll
show you.
This is the book from 2018.
Dan and I wrote this togetherand this explains the science of
dopamine.
Dopamine turns out to be notthe molecule of happiness, but
the molecule that makes you wantand anticipate, which is, of
course, at the heart ofaddiction and craving.
The first book explains thescience.
The second book, which I wroteby myself, a little input from
(05:10):
Dr Dan, is about specific thingsyou can do right now to stop
hurting and get better and dealwith this day-to-day struggle of
behavioral addiction, chemicaladdiction, the modern world and
how it draws us to not enjoy themoment so much anymore.
Courtney Andersen (05:24):
I know because I mean with smartphones,
and I do have to say thisbecause it's just free.
I'm not going to say everybody,but majority of people.
What would you say would be thepercentage of people being
addicted to your cell phone?
Michael E Long (05:37):
Well, I'm going to be careful with that word
addiction, because I don't wantto say that it's pathological,
necessarily, but it feels, andby pathological of course I mean
as a diagnosed condition ordisease.
I'd say everyone has a problemwith it and those who don't are
living some sort of Supermanlife that the rest of us will
never know.
But in all seriousness, it is aconstant attraction and the
(06:05):
question of whether it's aproblem or not is really up to
the individual.
Is it costing you time?
You'd rather spend doingsomething else?
Is it sucking away your mentalenergy that could be better
spent on your work, your familyor another kind of fun and
enjoyment?
But the real problem with it,the thing that sets it apart, is
when you're engaged with adopaminergic activity like the
(06:28):
phone.
You're not enjoying the moment.
You think you are, and I'llexplain why that's not the case.
What you're actually doing isyou're engaged in anticipation
and hope.
When you scroll, you're hoping.
You're believing that somethingjust below the bottom of the
screen is going to be soexciting, so fulfilling.
(06:49):
You're not enjoying looking atthe screen.
You're enjoying the feelingthat what you see next might be
enjoyable.
It's a subtle but crispdistinction in practice.
Courtney Andersen (07:02):
Yeah yeah, distinction in practice.
Yeah yeah, because nowadayswith that I mean this is the
whole the cellular phone is awhole new beast, right, and
we're seeing that the youngerkids get it, the worse off it is
of waiting now till what?
I think it's kids maybe beinglike 13 with the cell phone.
I follow a page where it's waituntil eight.
So I think maybe 13, 14, ofgetting them a smartphone.
(07:26):
But I do have to say I'm goingback.
I have not, I never noticed ituntil I had a child, and so my
kid's three and a half.
And now it's if I'm on thephone right sitting there
scrolling and he's playing or hewants my attention.
I haven't noticed thosebehaviors until recently, I
(07:47):
would say up until about two anda half on, because he with kids
, they're so very present andthey just want your attention,
right?
Definitely he has shed a lighton more of my usage than I
thought.
Michael E Long (08:03):
Well it is.
I want to put a fine point onthis, finer than I did, is that
when I say it's not apleasurable activity, that's not
to say there's not somepleasure in anticipation, but
that's different from consumingsomething.
The way a piece of cake tastesin your mouth, the way a movie
makes you feel in the moment.
(08:23):
That's what we'll call a hereand now pleasure, and that
involves literally and I don'tlike that word because it's
overused, but in this case it iscorrect that involves literally
all the other neurotransmittersystems in your brain.
But dopamine, scrolling downthe screen, pulling the handle
on a slot machine which is thesame thing really, and we can
(08:44):
talk about that those areanticipatory pleasures.
That is hoping that somethingmight feel good in the future,
but you don't come away withanything.
You just have this anticipationthat something might be better
in the future, and that's why weget hooked on.
Well, I don't want to get aheadof myself.
The bottom line is dopamine isone neurotransmitter out of many
(09:07):
, but it's the only one thatsimply drives us to want more
than we have right now.
It doesn't allow us to besatisfied with what's in front
of us.
Think about how this flowsprofessionally.
I remember that when I wanted to, I'm a writer, primarily here
in Washington DC.
That when I wanted to, I'm awriter, I'm here in Washington
(09:27):
DC.
And I remember wanting.
My dream job was to writespeeches on Capitol Hill for a
United States senator.
I wanted that so much and thenI got it.
And after a few months I waslike, well, this is pretty good,
what else is there?
And I wanted another, the nextstep up, and I got that.
I ended up freelancing and Ithought, oh, I wonder if I could
(09:50):
end up at the White House.
Could I write speeches there?
So I'm pursuing that.
Wherever you are in life, youwant the next thing up.
But on your way to it, youimagine that the goal you're
headed for is going to be thething that makes you.
It's going to be the thing thatmakes you so happy.
And dopamine drives us to thenext thing.
(10:11):
If you live in a tent, you'dlove to have an apartment.
If you live in an apartment,you'd love to have a house.
If you have a house, you want abigger house or a castle, and
if you have a castle, you wantto live on the moon.
We always want more.
And then, when we get the thingwe're chasing, we don't often
stop to enjoy it, and that's oneof the saddest costs of being
(10:36):
addicted to a compound, asubstance of behavior is that we
don't stop to enjoy the thingwe strove so hard to get.
Courtney Andersen (10:44):
Well, how do you then suggest to stop and
smell?
Michael E Long (10:46):
the roses.
Courtney Andersen (10:47):
To stop and enjoy it, because that is
something I that of what youjust described.
That is something that Ilearned in my sobriety right,
where I thought all the thingswere what brought me happiness,
but as I evolved and the yearswent on, it's that doesn't mean
shit to me.
Michael E Long (11:05):
Yeah, it just was one of those things that I
was like this doesn't bring mehappiness, when I thought that
it did well, I'll say thatthere's a lot to say here and I
and there's a whole podcast,basically the whole discipline,
to talk about craving and that'sthe thing that that people who
are dealing with addiction haveto fight more than anything,
when you you're addicted toalcohol, or let's even just say
(11:28):
when you have a serious problemwith alcohol, it takes more and
more to feel less and less.
Now, that ought to, if youthink about it for just a moment
.
That ought to be enough tobreak the addiction, because if
you have to work harder and it'sfeeling less and less, you go
screw that.
I don't need that in my lifeanymore.
But that's not what happens,because although the pleasure
diminishes, the craving stayshigh, and that, of course, is
(11:51):
the engine of addiction.
So your question is what can wedo to find some comfort out of
this, to find some way out?
Well, the first thing I have tosay is if you're dealing with
addiction, you deserve and youcan have some relief in the
moment.
That's the first thing I haveto say is if you're dealing with
addiction, you deserve and youcan have some relief in the
moment.
That's the first thing to getto In my book, which is not
about alcohol explicitly, butabout the dopaminergic process
(12:14):
behind it and the various,especially behavioral addictions
that we talk about.
The first thing is to acquirehabits and support so you're not
fighting this thing constantly,every minute.
Whether that's anaccountability partner which I
know, people who deal withalcohol do that a lot using
technology to block yourselffrom certain activities,
planning for the moment whentriggers appear, things that
(12:37):
many people in your audiencealready know.
Deal with that.
But there's a second part tothis is just because you defeat
the addictive feeling in themoment doesn't mean that you're
out of the woods, because if youpush away the addictive or the
dopamine-driven problem in themoment, you've created a gap.
(12:58):
Something has to fill that gapand something will fill that gap
.
What we'd like to do first isfill it with here and now
activities that give us pleasurein the moment.
I think it was William Soroyanwho said when you eat just
voraciously, when you laugh likehell, when you fight hard, when
(13:20):
you cry, scream and weep, getinto the moment, feel through
all five senses what it isthat's happening, and that'll
take you about 60% of the way.
Even that can grow boring.
Yes, the real answer is in.
Well, I'm not going to use thatphrase, which is simply not
going to say it in my book.
Courtney Andersen (13:43):
Because there is, I mean, but in a part of
addiction there's people.
It's a chaos.
So it's right, of what you'resaying, that it could.
It's like that could growboring, right, right.
Michael E Long (13:53):
Oh yeah, and that's the and that's the, and
that's where what I think mybook does, that doesn't get
talked about enough.
I hope.
I would love nothing more thanto be proven wrong.
But let me tell you the hereand now activities that you
replace it with need to pointtowards something greater.
There are three ideas inpsychotherapy, three major
(14:15):
Viennese psychotherapeutic ideas.
One is what Sigmund Freud said.
Sigmund Freud said we chasepleasure.
Alfred Adler said we chasepower, and you probably haven't
heard that name.
Viktor Frankl Now, a lot ofaddiction.
People have heard it, but a lotof other people haven't.
And Frankl said we need meaning, and that's the thing that
(14:38):
lacks the emphasis in the modernworld.
So if you're going to get thedopaminergic activities at bay
and replace them with things inthe here and now that allow you
to enjoy the moment, as ithappens, choose things that do
three goals at once.
One is find something you enjoy.
Number two, make sure that it'ssomething you're good at.
(15:01):
And number three, ensure thatit's a thing that is
contributing to your own senseof virtue in the Aristotelian
sense.
That is, justice or kindness,or grace or liberty.
I'm not talking about socialjustice, I'm talking about
(15:23):
higher truths, and these can bevery simple.
It's one thing to say, well,I'll play chess or I'll play
checkers or whatever during myoff time, or I'll but what is it
that you enjoy, that you'regood at and that we can say in
shorthand, helps somebody else?
And here's how simple it can be.
Let's say that you're a plumber.
You're a damn good plumber, youreally like plumbing, and when
(15:46):
you do the job it's fixed.
That's good enough.
Right there You're helpingother people with the thing that
you do best.
Let's say you're this is myfavorite example is the lunch
lady.
Let's say you're the lunch lady.
You like working at the schoolbecause you like being around
kids.
You're really good at the thing.
You're the smiling lunch ladythat puts it on the plate, and
(16:07):
these kids look forward toseeing you every day.
My God, what a wonderful way tospend your life.
What a wonderful way to spendyour life.
And that's the sort of thingthat can fill and expand, to
fill that space that's leftbehind when we stop the dopamine
chase.
And stopping the dopamine chaseis so damn hard, it is so
(16:29):
difficult.
So my book says first I knowit's hard, let me give you
specific things you can do thatdon't say, oh, just be tough,
just more self-discipline.
Well, that's going to run out.
Right, right, I'll give youthings in the book that'll help
you get past that.
And then I say let's do nothingless than find meaning in our
lives and let's abandon thisstupid idea that meaning has to
(16:50):
be caught up in a lifetime ofmonk-like study of philosophy.
You're good at it, you'rehaving a good time, you're
giving something back that'sgoing to begin to fill you.
Some people find it throughreligion, through finding,
through Christianity.
Those are perfectly valid waysto do it, but as long as you're
chasing now meaning, you'vetouched on the thing that drives
(17:14):
us as core human beings.
Courtney Andersen (17:16):
Yeah.
Michael E Long (17:17):
That's how we get through it.
Courtney Andersen (17:18):
Yes, absolutely.
My son does swim and his swimcoach is an older lady who does
it one day a week.
She works, but she does it oneday a week because she calls it
her therapy.
That's good enough.
You know what I mean.
And I was like you are right,Coach Ann, I spend my Tuesdays
with these kids teaching themhow to swim.
(17:39):
Like it doesn't get better thanthat.
And I was like you're correct,you are correct.
What, though, one thing that youcould recommend, though, or one
thing of besides what you justsaid, but of the stop of the
chasing dopamine, of besideswhat you just said, but of the
stop of the chasing dopamine.
Michael E Long (18:00):
Sure, Well, let's take this down two paths.
In the book and I mentionedthis just because that's how my
brain organizes the material Iwould love for people to buy the
book.
If you don't buy the book, goto the library and get it.
I'm not necessarily here justto sell books.
Courtney Andersen (18:08):
My audience, the good people of the world, is
what I call them.
They will get your book,because this is one thing that
they should be reading about,because I think too, when you
take it from a science approachof understanding, that it
translates better.
Michael E Long (18:22):
Yeah, Science is such a turnoff for so many
people and that's part of thereason that I wrote this book is
when I'm not writing about.
What I write about, I ghostwrite a lot of books.
I ghostwrite memoirs forcomedians and business people,
and I've written over 20 stageplays that have been produced,
mostly in New York, and so mything is, science in particular
(18:46):
is so fascinating.
If somebody will stop and makeit fun for you, if they'll make
it interesting for you, I willvery immodestly say if you liked
the Malcolm Gladwell book,you'll like this book, because
it's the same sort of approach,only with a little snarkier
attitude.
Courtney Andersen (19:00):
I like the snarky.
Michael E Long (19:02):
I've wandered from your question.
What are you asking?
What are the things that peoplecan do?
Courtney Andersen (19:08):
Hey, good people of the world.
It's Courtney, and if you're inyour first year or your fifth
year of sobriety, let's be real.
Summers can be tough, like avery, very, very challenging.
It took me a couple summers tofinally feel comfortable.
There's something about warmweather, parties and poolside
drinks that can make it feellike everybody's drinking but
(19:30):
you.
But just because drinkingculture ramps up, especially
during this time, doesn't meanyour progress has to slow down.
That's where a tool likeSoberLink can help.
It's a high-tech breathalyzerthat helps people in recovery
stay accountable, not throughshame, but through structure,
scheduled, daily tests.
Let you share instant, verifiedresults with the people who
(19:52):
support you, so you don't haveto do it alone, worried someone
might question your results.
They can't, because Soberlinkuses facial recognition and
tamper detection, so there's noway to cheat it.
Whether you're rebuilding trustor you just want that extra
layer of support this summer,soberlink is here to help you
stay the course of your journey.
I've witnessed people benefitfrom Soberlink is here to help
(20:13):
you stay the course of yourjourney.
I've witnessed people benefitfrom Soberlink and I want you to
be the next.
Visit wwwsoberlinkcom.
Forward slash sober dash vibesto sign up and receive 50% off
your device today.
You can also check the link inthe show notes below today.
(20:36):
You can also check the link inthe show notes below yeah, what
are the things they can do tostop chasing dopamine?
Even if it's just twosuggestions?
Michael E Long (20:39):
Sure, sure.
Well, let's pick out particularactivities and let's say, on
the matter of oh, let's say whatwe were talking about scrolling
on that phone.
Yeah, the place to begin numberone is to recognize, to sit
down and say, for the next halfhour, the next 10 minutes, the
next five minutes, I'm going tothink about what this problem is
(21:00):
and what I'm going to do aboutit.
And you say, okay, I know, I'vedecided I'm spending time on
the phone, that I want to spenddoing something else, whatever
that thing is.
So the first thing you can dois ask yourself when is it that
this feeling triggers you themost often?
Okay, is it when you're?
(21:20):
I don't know, let's just behonest when you're going to the
bathroom?
Is that when you sit there andscroll through the phone?
Is it when you're eating thelunch by yourself?
Is it?
Is it when you're sitting inthe car and you're riding and
your spouse or your partner,whoever is driving?
Is that when you do it?
And then you say are thesetimes I want to do something
else?
Courtney Andersen (21:38):
Yeah.
Michael E Long (21:39):
If that's it, you say, okay, I recognize what
those times are.
Now, what else could I do?
See, you have to have somethingin the chamber.
You have to have somethingready so you can say I'm going
to read this book, or I'm goingto make a list, or I'm going to
draw of things I have to do, orI'm going to journal, or I'm
going to draw a picture of thethings that I see.
Don't be afraid to saysomething stupid, ladies and
(22:00):
gentlemen, good people of theworld.
Don't fear looking stupid.
Ain't nobody watching, but you.
Okay.
So make a list of three or four.
Don't make a list where you gota big problem.
Now which one?
the lists that I do pick one ortwo things keep it simple and
say you know what, instead ofscrolling on when that trigger
comes, I'm going to recognize itand say, oh, I would scroll on
my phone, but actually I'm goingto read this book that I have,
(22:22):
that I'm carrying this littlepaperback with me and I'm going
to read three pages and thenI'll call it done, and this way
you have a thing ready to go inyour hand.
It's so simple in description,but the thing is that's its
power.
You're no longer fighting thewhole screaming wall of
dopaminergic pressure to scrolland see what's next.
(22:45):
You've already made thedecision before you got there
and you do it.
And you know what.
If you want to say I'm going toread three pages and then I'm
going to go back and scroll onmy phone, fine, any improvement
at all is improvement.
It's a step beyond where youare, and you're going to find
that when you immerse yourselfin these non-dopaminergic
(23:08):
activities, your brain is doingsomething very different.
It's no longer thinking what isnext, what is next Instead of
saying what is next, what isnext Instead of saying what is
now, what do I feel.
And that is a wonderful placeto be, and you can cultivate
just by doing the pleasure yougain from being in the here and
(23:28):
now, when Warren Zevon and thoseare my two ideas- I love it
when Warren Zeivon Warren Zivonmaybe not well known to your
audience, but he's worthexploring very much.
Wonderful musician.
Courtney Andersen (23:40):
And did you ever see that?
Nothing put me into tears.
Quite like there was adocumentary when he was dying
that they did on VH1.
When VH1 used to have stufflike that.
And, oh my God, thatdocumentary just hit my soul.
Michael E Long (23:59):
Well, you probably know what I'm going to
say.
Then Warren hated doctors andhis doctor, he said, was his
dentist.
So he would go to his dentistand get his teeth worked on and
he'd describe his other symptoms.
And one day his dentist saidyou better go get that checked
out.
It turned out to be terminalcancer and so it was a terrible
tragedy Died too young.
But here's where I'm getting,to Warren.
(24:19):
Let's be happy that Warren evenlived.
What a wonderful musician hewas.
He was on Letterman and he wasgoing to be dead very soon.
And David Letterman said whatdid you learn?
What do you have to share?
And warren paused and he saidenjoy every sandwich.
(24:41):
Oh, and people laughed and hekind of smiled and it didn't so.
Much of this hasn't come clearto me until years later, but now
I understand because of this.
He was saying all you have isthe moment you're in yeah enjoy
every sandwich.
Can I tell you a little morething in that vein, because I
love telling this one other?
Courtney Andersen (24:59):
thing, please do.
Michael E Long (25:01):
My best friend died at age 39.
And he was born to die.
He was born with diabetes inthe 1960s and that was a death
sentence at that time.
He made it 39 years and at hisfuneral a guy named Chris White,
actually a pastor, said I knowa lot of you are sitting here
thinking about Kent and youcan't remember the stuff you did
(25:25):
with him and you're frustrated.
And he said that's okay becauseit happened.
And I thought what the helldoes that even mean?
It happened.
I was a little bit angry andthen time passed and I got it
and let me make it clear to youif it's not clear to you right
(25:46):
now, the rest of you listeningis that all he said was when you
were with Kent you had a goodtime.
And you don't remember it now,but that's okay Because while it
was happening it was so muchfun.
And that moment is what you have.
Think back on your own life,about your childhood or your
early years of your marriage orwhatever joyful thing you have.
(26:09):
Think back on that and now tryto reconstruct it scene by scene
.
Well, you can't do it.
You don't remember very much,but while it was happening it
was wonderful.
Yeah, that's all we have, right, that's all we have is this
moment.
You and I won't remember everydetail of this conversation.
No, but while we're having it.
(26:30):
I don't know about you, but I'mgoing to go out on a limb and
say this is a very enjoyableconversation.
I love it.
I love this conversation, andthat's effing enough.
Courtney Andersen (26:39):
Yes, absolutely.
Michael E Long (26:41):
That's so much better than saying what if next?
What's next, what's next?
I've got to get through this.
I then saying what if next?
What's next, what's next?
I got to get through this.
I got to finish meal so I canget to dessert, because
dessert's going to be great.
Got to finish dessert so we canget back to the movie.
No, this dessert is delicious,this entree is delicious.
This conversation is wonderful.
I won't remember it, but I'mhere now.
Courtney Andersen (26:57):
Right.
I have an affirmation that Isay that a friend gave to me
years ago when I had really badanxiety, and it is an
affirmation of it.
You just say I'm exactly whereI need to be right now and even
after my stint of really badanxiety I kept with it because
it was something that has alwayskept me in the present.
(27:19):
And a couple of weeks ago myson had a Mother's Day thing at
his school and it kind of gotthrown off my game because I
thought I was just going hewould stay, but it was a half
day.
And it kind of got thrown off mygame because I thought I was
just going he would stay, but itwas a half day and going there,
I was like, oh man, I got allof these things to do, right,
this threw me off with my day.
What am I going to do with this?
And then when I got there andsaw the setup and we were
(27:42):
playing and having tea and hewas getting me cookies on a
plate, I just I had to keep thatin mind, I had to bring that
out and it is.
It's something where it's likethere's always the next thing
that you can get to or the nextstep, but it really truly isn't
just about enjoying that presentmoment For you.
How did you get to that pointof being in the now?
Michael E Long (28:07):
I'm not very good at it.
Courtney Andersen (28:08):
You seem like you are.
Michael E Long (28:10):
I'm trying.
I'm a Christian.
I like to say I'm a shittyChristian.
I'm pretty bad at that, and Iheard Stephen Colbert say that
one time and I was like I'm nottoo crazy about you, stephen
Colbert, but I like your phrasethere.
That was pretty good.
I'm not very good at much ofanything, except maybe writing
and speaking.
I think I'm pretty good atthose things.
But to live in the moment it'san effort and I guess I do have
(28:33):
an answer for you.
How do I do it?
Whatever I do is good enough.
I'm trying.
There's a Buddhist idea that youtouched on right then.
It's about you are where you'resupposed to be right now, and
in Buddhism the idea is youreally don't have much choice in
the first place.
It's going to lead you whereyou go and you don't have to be
a Buddhist to buy into that idea.
You can even just accept thatthis is where I'm supposed to be
(28:57):
and even if you don't like that, if this is where you are, well
, here you are, this is whereyou are, deal with it.
Can't change that.
So for me, I'd say the way thatI deal with it is I try to
remind myself number one,because this is sort of the airy
part of it is, I try to remindmyself this is what I can do at
(29:18):
the moment.
It may not even be everything Ican do at the moment, but it's
what I am doing, it's what I'vedecided to do in the moment and
that's good enough.
The other thing that I've doneis I've harnessed this dopamine
desire for the next thing byusing my calendar in a unique
way.
Every day.
I have a list of things toaccomplish and it's broken up
into categories.
(29:38):
I have my exercise section, Ihave my personal examination
section, I have my sometimes wedo this once a week or once a
month, and I have some things wedo every day.
And as I achieve those things,big or small, I change the color
from blue to green and that wayI have this little thing to
look forward to during the dayto pull me toward the next thing
(29:59):
, and while I'm doing the thing,I try to enjoy it.
So this way I get the balancebetween the dopaminergic pull me
forward and the here and now ofenjoy where you are.
And although that doesn't speakdirectly to the bracing problem
of addiction, it does speak tohow we might live in recovery.
Courtney Andersen (30:21):
Yeah Well, I have to say lately, as of the
past couple of months, I'vebecome more of a fan of some
lists not like list of thousandthings to do in a day because
that is overwhelming and listsused to overwhelm me and I would
get mad if I didn't do it.
But now it's just like you werejust saying it's just a couple
of simple things to do and Ifeel so satisfied checking them
(30:42):
off.
Michael E Long (30:43):
Oh, it's great.
And then you look back after afew months I've got several
years of this and I look backand go, oh, look at all I did.
Let me give your audience a funthing to do.
That is easy and very it's justI'm going to use the word a
little sarcastically here it'salmost addictive.
Okay, every morning I write downthree victories from the day
(31:05):
before.
I used to, when I was trying tofigure out how to label it.
It would be oh, what are threethings you did?
Or three things youaccomplished, and I was like, no
, let's make it positive, let'ssay victories.
So every morning I write downthree victories from the day
before, and sometimes they'revery simple.
Most of the time they're verysimple.
Oh, I had dinner with my wifeat the barbecue place and that
(31:25):
was fun Victory.
I got to see my daughter give atalk somewhere.
That was my daughter the doctor, my daughter the PhD.
I got to listen to her give atalk.
That's a victory.
I got a lot of administrativework done.
That's a victory.
Just three every day.
And then every Tuesday I goback and look at the previous
week and read them.
Oh, I'm moving forward, Ienjoyed what I did.
(31:48):
I got shit done.
That's pretty good.
Courtney Andersen (31:51):
Yeah, that is a good one.
That's a good one and two thatmakes you live in a positive
space.
Michael E Long (31:58):
It keeps me focused on what ought to matter
which is the here and now andthe effort to the effort to just
be better to other people.
There's all this anger in theworld right now and I think it's
.
I think it's this there's asaying among conservative
political types it is don'teminentize the eschaton.
(32:21):
Don't eminentize the eschatonand what that means in non
William F Buckley languageSomebody had to explain it to me
.
Courtney Andersen (32:27):
I heard that means in non-William F Buckley
language.
I was going to ask you whatthat means.
Michael E Long (32:29):
Somebody had to explain it to me.
I heard that I said what doesthat mean?
Don't eminentize the.
Don't make eminent what is thefuture.
Don't decide that what'stomorrow is more important than
what is today.
And so here we are, in a worldwhere we are fighting for
something better, ostensibly,and that's a noble thing to do,
(32:51):
but we don't have to hate otherpeople to do it.
If we start with the assumptionthat people don't hate us, that
people want good things, thatthey just have a different path
to get there, are there badpeople?
Of course there are.
Of course there are bad people.
But let's start from.
Let's give them the benefit ofthe doubt first, and then move
forward and talk about a way torealign your heart with your
(33:11):
goals.
Don't assume you're going toget your heart broken.
Lead with your heart.
If your heart gets broken, yourheart gets broken.
But what a sad way to gothrough life just to assume
everybody's about to screw youover.
Courtney Andersen (33:22):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
I do want to ask you one morequestion before we wrap up this
conversation Is there a timeframe where how long it takes
for your brain to rewire itselfI should say after quitting
drinking, like with the dopamineafter one of these behaviors,
(33:45):
right?
Is there a time frame or is itjust everybody's different on
when that kind of balances itout, where your brain rebalances
?
Michael E Long (33:55):
Well, I have to stress, I'm not a physician and
so I don't want to offersomething to say.
This is oh, this is theabsolute rule.
So, let me talk about it interms of things I am qualified
to talk about, which is in thebehavior space.
It ain't going to happen in aday, but after a few days of the
kind of practices I talk aboutin this book, you will begin to
(34:16):
see a difference.
And if you don't quit becausethere are varieties of
experience maybe it will takeyou two weeks before you
significantly feel it, but itprobably won't.
Within two or three days you'regoing to begin to feel this
particular thing, which is areduction in the pressure you
put on yourself to chase thatnext thing.
And that's going to be true.
(34:37):
No matter how far gone you feellike you are with this problem,
you will start to get better,and the reason we can't say, oh,
this will be done at this dateis because it's never done.
It's never done.
It is, as everyone listening tothis who's dealing with
addiction knows.
It's a lifetime of usingstrategies to get better and
(35:00):
stay better, which is not thesame as saying it's always going
to be a terrible struggle.
For some people it is, but itdoesn't have to be for everybody
.
And when it becomes habit, itceases to be a struggle, it
becomes part of the wonderfulwallpaper that we live inside.
Courtney Andersen (35:17):
Yeah, and about that strategy I do have to
say that is so true, just frommy experience.
I have my things that I do inmy morning time that have built
my foundation right, whetherit's my meditation, gratitude
and reading some pages ofwhatever book I'm reading and
(35:37):
that has grounded me.
Now, when I had my son and myworld was flipped upside down in
those first couple months and Istopped, stopped doing that and
then add on sleep deprivation,I will have to say sleep was
very important.
Michael E Long (35:52):
That was one of my foundations as well.
Courtney Andersen (35:54):
Right, and so when that was flipped upside
down, within a short couple ofmonths I was starting to get
wonky, or like my eye wasstarting to twitch and I was
like I see why moms drink.
During this time, drinkingstarted to sound good again and
that's when I had to catchmyself and be like I need to get
(36:15):
back to doing my stuff to keepme grounded in that sense.
So I do agree with you with thestrategies and those tools that
you put in place do really help.
Michael E Long (36:25):
They do, they do they help over time.
And how?
About a moment just to say thatbeing a mother is such an
important job that is now almostreduced to cliche.
Well, of course, let's have ahand for the mothers.
No, let's look at what theyfrigging do every day.
That's a demanding job, rightthere.
That is an exhausting job.
It's a noble job, sure, butit's often a thankless job, at
(36:48):
least in the short run.
And if a woman decides this ishow I'm going to spend my life,
I'm going to bring a family intothe world.
That's going to matter a hellof a lot more than most jobs.
Congratulations for making thatdecision to anybody who does
that.
Bravo to you.
Courtney Andersen (37:01):
Thank you.
I mean, I agree, this past weekI just referred to my son as
the dictator.
It's just a joke, sort of yeah.
But I mean you have kids, youunderstand these early years,
but he was sick for two days andit's just, it makes me laugh,
but it's like you really trulyare somebody's bitch.
(37:21):
And both those nights I put himto bed and I was sleeping by
eight o'clock because I was justso tired.
So thank you for saying that,though, about moms.
But it is, it is true.
Well, you know what I'm walkingaway from this conversation.
I'm not going to remember allthat we said, but the feeling
that I will take because thiswas an excellent conversation
(37:42):
and you were great to talk tothe feeling I will take will
last me, is what I will rememberfrom this conversation.
Michael E Long (37:49):
That's wonderful .
It's Taming the Molecule ofMore.
My name is Michael E Long.
You can find it at Amazon,anywhere books are sold,
published by Ben Bella,distributed by Simon Schuster,
and you can read more at mywebsite, tamingthemoleculecom.
Okay.
Courtney Andersen (38:04):
And I will put all of your information in
the show notes, and thank you somuch for taking the time and
talking with us today.
Michael E Long (38:11):
Thanks so much.
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