July 17, 2025 • 45 mins
Episode 233: The 12-Step Guide for Skeptics w/ Arlina Allen
In episode 233 of the Sober Vibes podcast, Courtney welcomes back Arlina Allen to the show, and they discuss her new book, The 12-Step Guide for Skeptics.
The 12-Step Guide for Skeptics breaks down the most common myths and misconceptions that cause people to resist 12-step programs, offering a compassionate, clear-eyed reframe of terms like “powerless,” “God,” and “alcoholic.”
You’ll hear how she redefines these concepts to support recovery instead of scaring people away, and why just attending meetings isn’t the same as actually doing the steps. With her trademark honesty and no-BS approach, Arlina also opens up about the shame she felt at 20 years sober and how recovery continues to evolve long after quitting drinking.
Whether you’re sober-curious, stuck in the moderation cycle, or frustrated with traditional recovery language, this episode will give you permission to take what works, leave what doesn’t, and reclaim your sobriety your way.
WHAT YOU’LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE:
- How Arlena’s 31 years of sobriety shaped her unique view on recovery
- Why she calls herself “recovery promiscuous” and encourages trying every tool
- The real meaning of “powerless over alcohol” and why it’s not a weakness
- How to navigate the "God" and "higher power" concept if you’re skeptical
- The danger of dismissing 12-step programs based on people, not principles
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Grab The 12-Step Guide for Skeptics
CONNECT WITH ARLINA:
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Hope this episode helps you today!
Thank you for listening! Help the show by Rating, Reviewing, and/or Subscribing to the Sober Vibes Podcast.
Connect w/ Courtney:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney Andersen (00:31):
Hey, welcome back to the Sober Vibes podcast
.
I'm your host and Sober Coach,courtney Anderson.
You are listening to episode233.
And I hope, wherever you are atin the world today listening to
this, you are having a kick-assday, and if not, there's always
tomorrow, right?
I have a great guest on today.
(00:51):
This is actually her secondappearance on the Sober Vibes
podcast.
I cannot remember which episodeshe was on, so I'm going to
link that episode in the shownotes so you can listen to her
backstory, because today wedon't get into that, and that's
okay, since she's already beenon, but today we get into her
new book.
So today's guest is Arlena Allen, and she is a certified light
(01:12):
and sobriety coach.
She is also, too, the host ofthe One Day at a Time Recovery
Podcast and, as I said, she justrecently wrote a book called
the 12-Step Guide for Skepticsand it's all about clearing up
common misconceptions of a pathto sobriety with the 12-step
program, which I love.
A guide, I love a guide and Ilove when people explain things
(01:32):
or prepare you for things right.
So you definitely need to checkout Arlena's podcast and to her
book, and it was a greatconversation.
I enjoyed talking to her.
That's why I had her on asecond time, and I hope you
enjoyed this episode as well.
Make sure.
If you haven't yet, please rate, review and subscribe to the
show.
As always, keep on trucking andstay safe out there.
(01:56):
Hey Arlena, welcome back to theSober Vibes podcast.
I'm very excited to have youhere today.
I'm so excited to be with youthis morning, it's super fun.
(02:17):
Why don't we spend?
We spent.
We spent time with each otheryesterday as I did your podcast
and you were.
You know, what's funny is, whenI was pulling up the
information for today, itbrought up when we did our
podcast last, because you wereon the podcast last year and it
was honestly it was we recordedlast year on May 24th, so it's
May 22nd.
I will link your originalepisode in the show notes below.
(02:41):
That way listeners can listento that one.
New listeners, because it was agreat one.
We had a great conversation andyou, since the last time we
talked, have written a book.
Arlina Allen (02:53):
I have.
Yeah, I wrote the 12-Step Guidefor Skeptics.
It's a tagline is clearing upcommon misconceptions of a path
to sobriety.
So it's a path, not the path.
Right right, right.
I'm a sort of I like to jokearound that.
I'm sort of a recoverypromiscuous.
I like to try.
It's a funny way to say I liketo try all the tools.
(03:15):
Right, I'm not.
I don't see any reason why notto try all the tools.
Courtney Andersen (03:20):
Yeah, cause, how long have you been sober
for?
Arlina Allen (03:23):
I got, so I just celebrated 31 years.
So it's been a minute, it'sbeen like a whole lifetime.
I'm actually sober longer thanI was, so I was like 25 when I
got sober and I'm 56 now, soit's, yeah, been sober longer
than I wasn't.
Courtney Andersen (03:41):
You got sober young.
Arlina Allen (03:43):
Girl, I crashed and burned.
It was like of no like virtue.
Courtney Andersen (03:48):
When did your active addiction start?
It was young, right.
Arlina Allen (03:52):
Yeah, I wasn't a daily drinker after I started,
but I had my first drink betweeneight and ten.
Like I was really young, likemom, when my parents had
divorced and I was seven, my momwent out on a date and I
decided it'd be a great idea todrink some of the booze that was
in the bottle, which was weird.
I'm not really sure where thatcame from because I didn't see
my parents drink.
(04:12):
They were like total goody, twoshoes type of people, but there
was a dusty old bottle leftover from some party or
something and I thought it'd bea great idea to take a drink.
And it was not a great idea, asit turns out.
Courtney Andersen (04:27):
No well, I mean especially so young.
Like that, when you first tastealcohol right, and it's just
again.
Even when I started drinkinglater on, at 19, it's nobody
starts drinking, being like Ihope I have a problem right,
like that's just not in yourmind that one day down the road
you could have a problem withdrinking right and especially I
didn't know that drinking couldbe a problem Right, exactly,
(04:49):
exactly.
So, yeah, eight was young for afirst sip.
All right, wasn't it?
Nice, though, when you hit forme, when I hit 10 years, that to
me was like and I'll never saythat I fully made it right,
because I will always keep myego in check but for me that was
monumental for me, becausethat's how long I spent in that
(05:11):
active relationship, thataddiction with alcohol.
I spent 10 years in it.
So when I hit 10 years sober, Iwas like it's almost like I
could just breathe a little bitmore, I would say, and I
definitely was more comfortableafter that 10 years.
Did you have anything like thatwhere, because you are in
long-term sobriety, that's along, long time yeah.
Arlina Allen (05:36):
I don't remember.
Looking back, going oh, I drankfor this many years and now I'm
sober.
This many years I don'tremember.
But then again my memory isfailing me.
I don't know if it's the amountof weed I smoked or just my age
, Right.
Courtney Andersen (05:56):
It's all becoming a blur, if you know
what I mean.
Arlina Allen (05:57):
Yeah, there were definite milestones along the
way where I was like, whoa,that's my number.
Courtney Andersen (06:01):
Yes.
Arlina Allen (06:05):
You know.
What's funny, though, courtney,is there have been times when I
feel embarrassed about mynumber.
Really yeah, because,especially 31 years, I've had
people ask me like oh, do youeven remember what it was like?
You know, I don't think you canrelate to me because you've been
sober so long, like even incoaching, when I do discovery
(06:25):
calls with people, there's thishesitancy like are you going to
do?
You even remember what it waslike?
And I'm like bitch.
Of course I remember I was likethat's what keeps me sober.
You know what I mean?
So it's it's a and when Iactually I had a very weird
experience when I turned 20years sober, like I thought I
(06:46):
was going to be all excited.
I felt overwhelming shame that Iwasn't better already, that I
wasn't, that I was stillcarrying these.
But no, the overwhelming shameat turning 20 was is that I
still struggle with certainthings.
Right, like I had some prettytraumatic stuff happen to me
when I was really young sexualabuse, my parents' divorce, not
(07:09):
feeling a part of some otherthings that happened to me when
I was really young, and sohaving these traumatic
experiences causes me to maybeoverreact in certain situations.
Or like I was feeling why am Inot zen 24-7?
Like, why am I still havingthese up and down, ups and downs
(07:29):
?
Why am I still attracting?
Like I have all thesecodependency issues?
It's like, why am I stillattracting, attracting all these
sick people, like we werechatting yesterday about people.
It's like the helper, like,like maybe a sponsor, sponsor,
sponsor, mentor, menteerelationships, where there's a
power differential.
It's like why do I feel a needto be the helper all the time,
(07:52):
right, right, why do I have aproblem asking for help, right?
So at 20 years sober, I wasstill struggling with
codependency issues, workaholism, like all this stuff, and
feeling, wow, I've been soberfor 20 years and I'm not.
I'm still human.
Courtney Andersen (08:07):
Very disappointing, yeah, but that's,
that's the nature of it, right?
I mean again it for some peopleI'm not saying that you were
that, but for some people for avery long time, it's just about
not drinking that day and goingabout their daily life, and then
, and then you feel like you'vegot that and you feel secure and
(08:27):
grounded in that, and then youhave to start moving on to other
things.
If you also, too, have thatawareness Because some people
don't I'm not saying you don'thave an awareness the 20 years
into your sobriety, butsometimes when that comes up,
then that's when you're likewhat is this right?
I mean each year of my sobrietyand in my early days of my
(08:49):
recovery, it's though every yearit was something else where I
was like, oh, I need to work onthis now, right, and I only
think that I had that awarenessbecause I had been in therapy
since I was a kid.
Arlina Allen (09:14):
Yeah, do you know what I mean?
So some people just don't knowwhat it is, or it comes to them
in the time that it's supposedto because I had done so much
work, like I had done all thetherapies.
Like as soon as I got soberwell, to backtrack a little bit,
I went to Tony Robbins.
I started like getting exposedto Tony.
It was like this idea that ifyou change your mind, you can
(09:39):
change your life and how to getleverage over yourself and all
these, and it like blew my hairback.
I was like, oh my gosh, this isamazing.
And that kind of set the stagefor me to be able to get sober,
maybe like a couple years later.
And so when I was able to putdown like the drugs and alcohol,
I fully dove into this personaldevelopment space.
So I was doing all kinds ofself-reflection and therapies
(10:04):
and eventually did things likeEMDR and all this.
I did all the things.
So I think my experience of wow, 20 years in and I'm still not
fully healed, still human, waskind of alarming to me and I
think it was just like a deeperacceptance of this awareness
(10:25):
that I have neuroscience termsthey call it the default mode
network, which is very tied toidentity, and that I've been
telling these stories about whoI think I am, that it became so
ingrained that it's verydifficult to break out of these
patterns.
And to be fair to me and peoplewho struggle with addiction, we
(10:49):
have these things for a reason,like being human is hard enough
, but being human and carryingcertain traumatic experiences is
a whole other animal.
Courtney Andersen (11:02):
Let's say yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Do you remember, though, a yearlike that, a year into in your
sobriety journey, that there wasa milestone year that really
felt good to you, right thatwhere you didn't have the shame
of the number and whatnot, or acouple of them?
If you had a couple likemilestone years where you're
(11:22):
like that was good year?
Arlina Allen (11:27):
milestone years where you're like that was a
good year.
Yeah, I got to tell you thatfirst year when I picked up my
first chip, it did feel likethis huge accomplishment.
It was like graduating fromhigh school or like a huge.
It was a like in our culture wedon't have those like a rite of
passage.
We don't have a lot of those inour culture the ways others do,
(11:48):
but that really did feel like arite of passage where I picked
up my one-year chip for mysponsor, who actually just
passed away last Saturday.
It hasn't even been a week yet.
Courtney Andersen (11:58):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Arlina Allen (11:59):
Yeah, and I write about like my book is based on
my work that I did with her myfirst year.
Her name was Kimmers and so allin the book I write about my
experience with her, but she wasthe one that gave me.
She and I did a lot of worktogether and she helped me
through some man.
That first year is just roughbecause you're it's the first
(12:22):
time you're bumping up againstholidays, your birthday.
As women, we have our cycles andthe roller coaster of your
hormones and your dopamine allresetting and healing.
Like she was by my side throughthat whole thing and that felt
like such a milestone toaccomplish an entire year, like
(12:49):
such a milestone to accomplishan entire year where prior to
that, I think I the longest Iwent was like I made it to noon
without a bong hit one day.
It was like that was like thebest I could do at the time, so
to make it an entire.
And that's why the name of mypodcast is the One Day at a Time
Recovery Podcast, because itwas really this idea and I
realize it's like a mind hack,but it was really maybe I'll
(13:11):
drink tomorrow but not today.
Maybe I'll smoke weed tomorrowbut not today.
And there were some days whereit was like I need to call
somebody to help me get throughthe next hour.
Right, it could be an hour at atime.
Yeah, Right, yeah, it could bean hour at a time, a minute at a
(13:49):
time.
I didn't have those, A lot ofthose real like white knuckle
moments, but because I alwayshad, I always had support,
always had people.
Courtney Andersen (13:51):
I joined 12 step early, so I always had
people I could call that wouldhelp me process feelings to
resolution, which was a skilland a tool that I didn't have
prior.
Right, Getting sober Rightright.
Well, I'm sorry for your lossand I'm happy you had her in
your life Me too.
Arlina Allen (13:59):
And I'm glad she got to read the book.
Yeah, I'm glad she reallyunderstood what it meant to like
what her role in my life meant.
Yeah, I'm glad she reallyunderstood what it meant to like
what her role in my life meant.
Courtney Andersen (14:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
That was a blessing for surethat she got to read that One
year.
Was there another year thatstood out to you?
Arlina Allen (14:17):
I mean, 30 was pretty big, that was like do you
, though?
Courtney Andersen (14:22):
do you celebrate for your sober
birthdays?
Arlina Allen (14:28):
It's funny.
So when I was up until sixyears ago I lived in San Jose
and went to a bunch of meetingsand had a large community and if
you stay sober for a while yousort of have a level of
visibility in the community.
My husband had been sober evenlonger than me and was super
(14:49):
active and my husband's, likethat, one of those guys.
Everybody just loves him.
He's just a super nice guy.
He's going super funny andcharming and handsome.
He likes it when I talk abouthim on podcasts.
He's amazing and so wheneverthere was a milestone I was
funny.
I was one of those people likeearly in sobriety I wanted like
(15:13):
birthdays was were reallyimportant to me, like my
birthday other, my sobrietybirthday they were.
they were like really importantto me and I would get
disappointed when there wasn'tpeople like, oh, nobody threw me
a party and I was like you knowwhat, I'm gonna do my own damn
party.
So twice a year I would getdisappointed when there wasn't
people like, oh, nobody threw mea party and I was like you know
what, I'm going to do my owndamn party.
So twice a year I would throwmyself a party.
I celebrated my birthday andthey were about six months apart
(15:35):
.
So twice a year I would justinvite over a whole bunch of
people.
We'd have potlucks, we'd havepeople over for UFC fights, I
mean we just and it was a bigdeal.
And then, as I got, and then the20 was the big one, where I it
was.
It was huge.
We rented, we rented a hall.
There was like a couple hundredpeople that came.
It was.
(15:55):
It was a big party.
But 30 was interesting becauseI didn't make a big hullabaloo
about it, like it was, and forme it was sort of like a growth
experience where I was like Idon't need external validation.
There was.
I did post on on social mediabecause that's the one thing I
do every year Acknowledge it.
(16:16):
It's important to acknowledge,but I didn't feel the need to
like be celebrated.
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (16:22):
Do you?
Arlina Allen (16:22):
know what I mean.
It was like a quiet sense ofgrowth that I didn't need that
this year or last year.
Courtney Andersen (16:31):
For sure, I'm one for celebrating and
whatever you decide to do, right, we used to travel around that
time around my sober birthday.
Now that I have the dictatorand where he's at with his age,
but is he almost four, almostfour, yes, and on September
he'll be four, but yeah, so wedo a cake and blow out the
(16:52):
candles.
There was actually a book on my, on our kitchen table this
morning that I just got, and ithad to do about quitting
drinking alcohol.
And he's like, mama, what'sthis book?
I said, well, buddy, it's aboutquitting drinking alcohol.
I was like we'll talk aboutthat later down the road and he
was like, why?
That's like a bunch of why's.
Right now I was like, yeah, Isaid it's just a topic we'll
have to discuss, but yeah, so Irecommend to anybody to
(17:15):
celebrate that and whatever youdecide to do, I think that's
awesome.
At 20 years you had that rager.
I think that's great.
20 years is a long time it's abig milestone.
(17:38):
Hey, good people of the world,it's Courtney, and if you're in
your first year or your fifthyear of sobriety, let's be real.
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you.
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(17:58):
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(18:20):
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You can also check the link inthe show notes below.
All right, so with your book.
(19:06):
What made you to decide towrite specifically this topic,
right?
Arlina Allen (19:13):
Oh man, yeah, it was so funny because there's all
this.
So 12 Step has a tradition thatyou maintain your anonymity at
the level of press, radio andfilm.
Now they're including podcastsand print social media.
Blah, blah, blah.
That's not really something Iactually agree with because in
the days of social media, I feellike AA's public relations
(19:35):
policy is a little bit outdatedin the sense that I get the
reason for anonymity, like BradPitt caught a lot of flack for
saying that he was a member ofAlcoholics Anonymous and on one
hand people are like that's good, he's bringing a lot of
exposure to it, but on the otherhand, people are like no,
because if he relapses then he'sa bad example.
(19:57):
And I'm like that is fuckingridiculous because, for a
variety of reasons, there is norepresentative.
There is no one person thatrepresents the entire
organization.
The thing is is that AA is afellowship of people who are
fundamentally mentally ill,myself included.
(20:19):
Right, I'm not saying this fromsome sort of high ground at all
.
Right, right, it's like peoplego there because they have
challenges with mental health.
Right, it's not the hotbed ofmental health.
Let's say, and sometimes peopleand I just want to say right up
front that the steps and thefellowship are two separate
(20:40):
things.
It's like soap and water.
They're kind of intended towork together, but sometimes the
soap is not palatable.
The people are flawed, for sure.
I mean people in general areflawed, and I remember talking
to this girl who was having the.
She got sober through the yogacommunity and she's like you
know what?
There's yogis that are verywell known for being
(21:02):
inappropriate and scandalous.
Like, wherever you go, therethey are.
So it's not like the fellowshipis any different, but there
there are.
I wrote the book because I,because of a's public relations
policy.
What is being spread in socialmedia are messages from people
(21:23):
who are angry about it went.
They had a bad experience withthe people, yes, or maybe the
literature they didn't get, andso the book is about presenting
context and perspective.
Courtney Andersen (21:35):
Yes.
Arlina Allen (21:35):
You challenging ideas and I think that 12 step
in general is veryconfrontational.
The purpose is to break yourdenial and what's interesting is
, people want to.
They want the transformationwith their current belief system
and that's not how this works.
Courtney Andersen (21:52):
Yeah.
Arlina Allen (21:53):
You cannot solve a problem with the mind that
created it.
Courtney Andersen (21:55):
Right and so people get offended.
Arlina Allen (21:58):
People get offended.
They're like fuck this, I'm out, right and I totally get it
Right.
Like you go there vulnerable,scared, broken, whatever, and
you bump into some people whoare unkind or very strict
there's a lot of really strictold timers and people get their
feelings hurt and they throw thebaby out with the bathwater
(22:29):
water and after doing, I think,380 episodes talking to people
who get sober through a varietyof ways, I always ask people if
they're 12-step oriented,because some people we need to
be because of the tradition ofmaintaining your anonymity,
people are sensitive about howthey share.
So I want to honor that.
And when people say, no, Ididn't do the steps, there's a
difference between going tomeetings and doing the steps.
(22:49):
People will often go to themeetings and say I tried AA, it
wasn't for me, I left and I'mlike did you do the steps?
No, well then you didn't do AA,right?
That's a very poignantdistinction that I want to make.
If you didn't do the steps, youdidn't try AA, you just went to
meetings and that's fine.
Some people get sober just bygoing to meetings.
(23:10):
But that's not the program.
That's not what AA is to do thesteps.
So I just want to be very super, ultra clear about what that is
.
I was just, I just feel I hadsuch an amazing experience like
actually working the steps.
It was super transformative, itwas very practical.
(23:31):
It's pragmatic.
That I was like, especially thefourth step, where you go
through all your pastresentments and hurts and
everything and then you getclarity about what is your
responsibility and what isn't.
And sort of the mechanics of whyyou have these resentments, and
it was such a freeing, magicalexperience for me and having
(23:54):
these spiritual experiences thatyou really can't.
It's like I liken it to try todescribe an orgasm to someone
who's never had one.
It's like it's something thatyou have to experience.
Yes, yes, absolutely so.
A spiritual experience issomething that you have to have
your own experience tounderstand what that, what
(24:17):
that's like, and so my attemptin this book was to honor
people's acknowledge and honorthe problems of the program,
which are there are many,acknowledge and honor the
problems of the program, whichthere are many, and offer some
context and perspective so thatpeople can overcome the common
hurdles that I see over and overand over again.
Like I was telling you, likewhen I would do the pre-chat
(24:38):
interview for the podcast,people say they didn't do 12
steps.
I'd be like why?
And they would give me theirperspective and in the back of
my mind, I'm like that's not athing, there's absolutely a path
around that obstacle, Becauseultimately, what I want is for
people to have the experienceand go through the process of
(24:58):
breaking that denial, findingout what's their responsibility,
being able to let go of what'snot and be able to move through
life without feeling triggeredor to drink and really
experience that freedom thatlife has to offer.
It's so little about quittingdrinking as it is.
(25:20):
It's more about how to live avery full, fulfilling, happy
life.
It's really not about alcoholat all.
It's about dealing with all theunderpinnings that compel people
to drink in the first place.
So I was like after a while Ijust couldn't stand it.
People are saying all thesehorrible things or misinformed
(25:41):
things.
It is a cold, like all thesethings that people say about 12
step.
I'm like that's not actuallytrue.
Courtney Andersen (25:47):
Yeah.
Arlina Allen (25:48):
And so I just clarify.
Courtney Andersen (25:50):
Yeah, and that's great because it is a
very helpful tool.
When I and I say it, I have mythings with the program and but
I always suggest and like youneed to go and try it.
You can't just.
That's why I won't ever go fullblown on my thoughts about it,
even though I did participate init.
(26:12):
And I respect everybody's wayto recover and get help and
whatever works best for them isgreat.
And there are, there are I'mkind of like what we were
talking about yesterday on yoursthere's always going to be some
shitty people in any type oforganization, because there are
just some shitty people outthere in life and that's
(26:33):
terrible and then that's yourexperience with it.
But that's why I will never, Iwon't ever dog it, because it's
helped so many people.
And I never understood the thingwith Brad Pitt, because it's
well, he's not outing anybody inthat program, you know what I
mean For him to be able to say Iuse that as a tool or as help
to get sober, because that manhad some issues.
(26:55):
Great, what is that?
He didn't throw anybody else's.
He didn't throw anybody elseunder that bus.
Arlina Allen (27:03):
He didn't break anybody else's anonymity is the
thing.
Courtney Andersen (27:07):
No, and somebody should be able to sit
there and be loud and proud andbe like, yeah, this is what I
use, because, again, when I gotsober, I had to be complete, 180
of what I was to help mecontinue going forward.
And that was speaking out aboutit, and that was being proud of
my sobriety and not feelinglike I had to whisper talk about
(27:29):
being sober.
It's well, that's what I did inmy, my act of addiction.
You know what I mean.
So I'm glad that you wrote yourbook and I'm very excited to
read it.
Yeah, and I'm honest.
Arlina Allen (27:39):
I just have to say that I lean into the
problems.
Courtney Andersen (27:43):
Yeah.
Arlina Allen (27:49):
I do.
I lean into it.
I recognize that there are somechallenges with it.
Yes, and I call it out becauseI'm like here's a way around it.
Courtney Andersen (27:57):
Yeah, and that's what people need you know
of.
But going back is I'm nevergoing to say anything, to a
point where it's you shouldn'tdo that, and that's where I
think this problem now ishappening with people giving out
their opinions.
It's where you could reallydeter somebody from going and
(28:20):
walking into that programbecause of your personal
experience and then them notgetting help that they need it
drives me crazy, and this justhappened recently.
Arlina Allen (28:32):
There's many people who are building
businesses, sober, coachingbusinesses, where their platform
is to bash yeah, right, drivesme crazy, and I take a
screenshot of it.
This, this gal, she, and it'sin such a sneaky, backhanded way
.
They're like, oh, I'm justsharing my experience and I was
(28:54):
like, hey, this is not okay,like I don't understand.
I kind of I do have compassionfor people who had a bad
experience.
I really do.
I just I don't see the need tobash it, but people have a bad
experience and then they feelthe need to discuss it with
everyone.
So this gal is, she's 10 yearssober, she spent five years in
(29:14):
AA and she's I'm coming up on 10years and and so now I want to
help people who have left AAbecause it doesn't.
And so these people who are onsocial media all the time saying
if it works for you, that'sgreat.
It didn't work for me, andhere's why Let me give you the
litany of misinformation of whyit didn't work for me.
(29:38):
And it just drives me crazybecause I'm like and then so,
when I posted about it, I waslike, hey, people are still.
This is the reason why I wrotethis book because every day,
people are going on social mediatalking about why it didn't
work for them.
And and this girl came at meand she was like you, of all
people, should know better thanto bash another woman's.
(30:01):
And I was like, excuse me, likeI'm not bashing how she chooses
to remain sober.
What I'm saying is it'sinappropriate, like I don't
appreciate her saying thesenegative things about something
that actually works for millionsof people.
(30:36):
Right, right, it's anopportunity to go deeper.
Courtney Andersen (30:40):
Well, yeah, and here's the thing too with.
I mean, my thing has alwaysbeen take what you want, leave
the rest.
And that that is for anythingin life take what you want and
leave the rest.
But nowadays it's well, wheredo I meet sober people?
And it's there is one of thegreatest communities of people
(31:04):
that you could meet and gothrough that route of meeting
people in AA who are sober andyou could find some like-minded.
Same thing too, as we talkedabout yesterday and I will link
when this episode comes out Iwill link that episode on your
podcast too.
But that for anything like wetalked about, like sometimes
(31:26):
you're not going to find thebest therapist right off the bat
, you're not going to vibe wellwith that person.
They might not.
You might not have done yourhomework to really learn, like
about what they specialize in.
Right, they might tell you youdon't have a drinking problem as
you're sitting there being likedoc, please help me.
And you have to go findsomebody where you're like man,
(31:48):
I really like this person.
It's no different for meetingsand I think that that's what
people they go to.
One they're like.
This isn't for me.
And then don't try to find adifferent one, or possibly two
for women to sit at a women'stable, because I'm a firm
believer that men and women inthe space it's completely
different, because men do nothave periods.
(32:10):
Men do not deal with hormonesthe way that women do, and it's
different that so they'redealing with hormones, but it's
a whole nother ball of wax,right?
So I just think that peoplehave to.
When you walk into that, you dohave to give it an honest go
and if that meaning doesn't vibewith you, go to a couple
different ones, maybe go to adifferent location, and just try
(32:35):
After trying.
If it doesn't work out, then itdoesn't work out for you.
But not to take that experienceand then twist it for your
personal gain Because, like Isaid, that could really, really,
really that program could helpsomebody in your audience and by
you saying not to do it, it'sawful.
(32:56):
It's awful Because at the endof the day, we all want people
to get help and to quit drinkingand however you end up doing
that, whatever program or roadyou go down, that works for you,
it's great.
So let's just all respecteverybody's recovery.
Arlina Allen (33:17):
I am all about if , if the yoga community helped
you get sober, that's awesome.
If, like, you have a communityTommy Rosen has a community
there's like a bunch of peoplehave communities and because
that's really the thing is, weneed to surround ourselves with
people who are also not drinking, who can get us through those
(33:38):
tricky times.
Like we need support, we needto be able to talk to people, we
need to be able to help andreceive help, find new meaning
and purpose in life, and so, atthe end of the day, I'm like
listen, I am very clear this iswhere it sounds almost
hypocritical, because I'm veryclear that there are some people
who are so hurt, have hadnegative experiences.
(34:02):
You can listen.
There's like people withreligious trauma.
I had a fair amount ofreligious trauma and 31 years
ago, if I had had, there wasnothing else available when, I
got.
There was nothing else availableand had there been other
options, I probably would havetaken them.
Yeah, and I would have missedthe amazing experiences that I
(34:24):
had through 12 step.
Yeah, I would have missed it.
I would have been one of thosepeople that said I'm not doing
that shit.
God, what are you talking about?
What are what's up with allthese dudes?
Actually, that would have beenan attraction for me.
It was all the men, but what?
There's a bunch of summer dudesI hook up with.
Are you kidding me, right?
But yeah, I, I just I'm allabout and I listen and I've
(34:46):
tried all the other things.
Yeah, rather, I participate inthe yoga community.
I've done all the therapies andI like to do all any tools.
There's so many, so I just liketo do all of them.
But that, the reason I keepcoming back to 12-step is
because it's sort of just and Ithink I went so long just
because there were.
(35:07):
I had a large community.
That's where I saw all myfriends.
That's kind of where I gotright size.
I could do service, I couldreceive help, but I could walk
into a room and hug 20 of mygirlfriends.
Courtney Andersen (35:20):
Right, exactly, exactly.
So what are three bigmisconceptions that you wrote in
your book?
And that to help people workaround?
Arlina Allen (35:32):
So I would say the three big ones.
There are ideas around God,powerlessness and alcoholism,
right and right off the top.
I want to say that words can beredefined, yeah, right.
So some people are like I'm notgoing to use a shame label.
Okay, I get that In your mind.
(35:53):
Alcoholism means something veryspecific to you.
I started going to meetings andI started meeting.
I like to go to the bougie partof town, so I was in Silicon
Valley, so I'd be going to LasGadas meetings where all the
rich, fancy people were and Iwas like these are alcoholics,
like I want to be like thesepeople.
And then that was justsuperficial people who have the
(36:18):
courage to confront all of theiryou know obstacles, all of
their challenges, all of their,and really dig deep and do this
really hard work ofself-reflection to be free on
the other side of it.
Right, it's almost like theharder the challenge, the freer
you are on the other side of it,and people were doing these
(36:42):
self-reflective exercises.
And so these were people andthey were doing this service
work and they were some of themost generous, spiritual, loving
, kind, compassionate peoplethat I had ever met and still
hold in such high regard.
They were in like leadershippositions, but also people who
(37:03):
are bus drivers, teachers,janitors, I mean I hate to say
it in that way, but you knowwhat I'm talking about like this
, from every socio economicprofile that you can imagine.
We're just like these people ofdeep love and compassion,
really, and and I was like whoathese people are badass.
And so for me, the wordalcoholic is sort of like a
(37:26):
badge of honor, because peoplewho use that word oh, I'm an
alcoholic people who use thatword are typically 12-step
oriented and so it just meanssomething totally different to
me.
And the reason that they usethat.
I don't think people understandthat.
The reason that people say hi,my name's Arlene, I'm an
alcoholic is because when Afirst started, all kinds of
(37:48):
people were going to thosemeetings.
It was family members,clergymen, researchers, like all
kinds of people were going andpeople were sharing.
Like the people who actuallyneeded to share weren't given
the opportunity because allthese other people were sharing.
So then they started makingrules around only people that
are alcoholic can share.
Courtney Andersen (38:09):
Right.
So that's how that came aboutin the beginning of these.
Arlina Allen (38:11):
That's how it came about, and it just became
sort of like this part of thelexicon that people started.
Courtney Andersen (38:18):
And part of.
Arlina Allen (38:20):
It's not in the book anywhere.
There's nowhere in the big bookof Alcoholics Anonymous that it
says you have to identifyyourself as an alcoholic.
It's not in it, that's just atradition, that that's like in
the military.
There's nowhere in the bookthat says where the mess hall is
right, but everybody knowswhere it's at.
You just follow the crowd, butthere there is a lot of pressure
(38:41):
among the peers for people tobe like.
They want you to use thatlanguage and some people dance
around it by saying I'verecovered, whatever.
So that's, it's just not athing.
Nobody can make you sayanything.
The powerlessness is alsointeresting.
I had a friend who hosts apodcast very high profile
(39:01):
podcast who said that she lookedat the steps and she was like
oh, but I don't feel like I'mpowerless.
I still feel like I have alittle bit of power.
So I feel like it would bedishonest for me to do that.
And I was like you realize thatthat's just a word in a phrase.
The phrase is powerless overalcohol.
I just want to drive that pointhome, that it's not powerless
(39:25):
in general in life.
It's powerless over alcohol,and my argument is is that if
anybody ingests alcohol, itkicks off a cascade of chemical
reactions that you cannotreverse at will.
Oh yeah, you know what I'msaying.
So in the sense, everybody ispowerless over alcohol.
Some of us just take it to anextreme where, like me, when I
(39:49):
start drinking alcohol, I haveno off switch.
On the contrary, I just wantmore.
And then I become mentallyobsessed by it, Like it's all I
can think about.
It's like I plan all my daysand activities around alcohol.
Courtney Andersen (40:04):
Yeah, the powerless one I've never
understood and that's one I'vetalked about too, and it's like
once you start drinking, you donot have control.
You do not have control overyourself and I'm sure 90% of the
time, if you sat and thoughtabout it, that that is true,
right?
Yeah, there's been a coupletimes where you're like I've had
(40:26):
a drink I mean, I'm just makinga broad statement here You've
had a drink and you're like,okay, I'm good, but because you
were probably more in a sense oftrying to control it in that
moderation cycle, you're tryingto prove to yourself like I got
it and then 90% of the time,it's no, because I'm the same
(40:48):
way.
As soon as I would have, Icould feel that off switch, go
off in my head after a couplesteps.
Right, and I think it's morepowerful to understand that that
this is something that I cannot.
I cannot consume anymorebecause I don't, I can't control
it.
So the most powerful thing forme to do is not to drink alcohol
(41:09):
.
That's how I can control it bynot drinking it's so much easier
.
Arlina Allen (41:13):
It's so much easier.
Courtney Andersen (41:14):
Yeah, I mean , I get it.
I'm not trying to sound like adick here, because I do
understand that people.
It is, it's nowadays peopledon't want labels and whatnot
but honestly it's, it really iscoming down to you understanding
that you cannot drink alcoholanymore.
(41:36):
Yeah, I mean, I'm very oh, goon.
Arlina Allen (41:40):
Well, I was just going to say like, yeah, I mean,
I'm very I.
Oh, go on.
Well, I was just gonna say likeI was a binge drinker.
I wasn't a daily drinker, right, and I'm sure I had a day or
two where I had just a coupledrinks, but it wasn't like
something bad happened everytime I drank, but every time
something bad happened I hadbeen drinking.
Courtney Andersen (41:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Arlina Allen (41:59):
Right, so it's not, it's not.
And then just overall, and Icould never predict when those
bad times were going to happen.
Yeah, I had to quit.
Courtney Andersen (42:09):
Yeah, I also think too of the alcoholic, of
why a lot of people have a hardtime with that.
I don't even think it hasanything to do with AA.
I really, truly don't with thatverbiage being used in there.
I think it's because it was theidea that has been put into our
brains of what a quote unquotealcoholic looks like, and that
(42:31):
is somebody homeless, beggingfor change, living under a
bridge.
Do you know what I mean?
But not every homeless personis out there because they had a
drinking problem, but not everyhomeless person is out there
because they had a drinkingproblem and that had been beat
into how it has played out inmedia and in I don't want to
even say books, but just howit's been played out in media,
(42:54):
and that is the idea that peoplehave.
So when people who are veryhigh functioning well, that's
not me, that's not me, I'm notas bad, and so there's always a
comparison right To the personwho was the extreme alcoholic.
Arlina Allen (43:11):
Yeah, and that's why.
That's why, when you go tomeetings, they often tell you
look for the similarities, notthe differences.
Courtney Andersen (43:17):
Yeah, which is great, yeah, but the
similarities.
Arlina Allen (43:21):
How am I like these people?
Look for reasons why it'sreally.
Look for reasons why alcohol isnot good for me.
I mean, at the end of the day,it's a neurotoxin.
It's.
Drinking today is borrowinghappiness from tomorrow because
there's no free lunch.
Even if you only drinkoccasionally, you know you're
going to pay the price for itthe next day, right?
Courtney Andersen (43:39):
yeah, yeah, for sure so.
Arlina Allen (43:41):
I mean there's no real good reason to drink,
especially as you get older.
Like your liver doesn'tfunction the way it used to when
you're young, you just can'tshake it off the way you used to
.
Courtney Andersen (43:51):
Well, and for women again, the
perimenopause, menopause cycle.
Men don't go through that.
So for women, as they get older, having alcohol in their lives,
it just gets worse and worseand worse and worse.
Arlina Allen (44:05):
I think for men the big deterrent is like the
sexual dysfunction right and thecognitive load as we get older.
We're competing against youngerpeople.
We really need to have our witsabout us.
Courtney Andersen (44:19):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely Well.
Where can people find thank youfor sharing all of this?
This has been a great Well.
Where can people find thank youfor sharing all of this?
This has been a great chattoday.
Where can people find you?
I will link everything to inthe show notes below, but where
can people, if they want toconnect with you, can find you?
Arlina Allen (44:34):
The main hub is soberlifeschoolcom.
That's where they can find thebook.
The book is on Amazon.
That's where they can find thebook.
The book is on amazon, butthat's where they can find.
They can get access to mycalendar.
I'll talk to anybody that wantsmaybe some resources.
I offer a free strategy call in15 minutes.
I can give people, if they wantto tell me kind of where
(44:56):
they're at.
Like I can help fill in theblanks for resources.
But but that's where you canget access to the podcast and
the book and me.
Courtney Andersen (45:04):
Well, great, great.
I'm excited to read your bookand, again, it was great to talk
to you two days in a row.
I know it's super fun.
Arlina Allen (45:11):
We should do this more often.
Courtney Andersen (45:14):
All right.
Well, thank you again for beingon this episode and we will
talk soon.
Thanks so much.
Hey, welcome back to the Sober Vibes podcast
.
I'm your host and Sober Coach,courtney Anderson.
You are listening to episode233.
And I hope, wherever you are atin the world today listening to
this, you are having a kick-assday, and if not, there's always
tomorrow, right?
I have a great guest on today.
(00:51):
This is actually her secondappearance on the Sober Vibes
podcast.
I cannot remember which episodeshe was on, so I'm going to
link that episode in the shownotes so you can listen to her
backstory, because today wedon't get into that, and that's
okay, since she's already beenon, but today we get into her
new book.
So today's guest is Arlena Allen, and she is a certified light
(01:12):
and sobriety coach.
She is also, too, the host ofthe One Day at a Time Recovery
Podcast and, as I said, she justrecently wrote a book called
the 12-Step Guide for Skepticsand it's all about clearing up
common misconceptions of a pathto sobriety with the 12-step
program, which I love.
A guide, I love a guide and Ilove when people explain things
(01:32):
or prepare you for things right.
So you definitely need to checkout Arlena's podcast and to her
book, and it was a greatconversation.
I enjoyed talking to her.
That's why I had her on asecond time, and I hope you
enjoyed this episode as well.
Make sure.
If you haven't yet, please rate, review and subscribe to the
show.
As always, keep on trucking andstay safe out there.
(01:56):
Hey Arlena, welcome back to theSober Vibes podcast.
I'm very excited to have youhere today.
I'm so excited to be with youthis morning, it's super fun.
(02:17):
Why don't we spend?
We spent.
We spent time with each otheryesterday as I did your podcast
and you were.
You know, what's funny is, whenI was pulling up the
information for today, itbrought up when we did our
podcast last, because you wereon the podcast last year and it
was honestly it was we recordedlast year on May 24th, so it's
May 22nd.
I will link your originalepisode in the show notes below.
(02:41):
That way listeners can listento that one.
New listeners, because it was agreat one.
We had a great conversation andyou, since the last time we
talked, have written a book.
Arlina Allen (02:53):
I have.
Yeah, I wrote the 12-Step Guidefor Skeptics.
It's a tagline is clearing upcommon misconceptions of a path
to sobriety.
So it's a path, not the path.
Right right, right.
I'm a sort of I like to jokearound that.
I'm sort of a recoverypromiscuous.
I like to try.
It's a funny way to say I liketo try all the tools.
(03:15):
Right, I'm not.
I don't see any reason why notto try all the tools.
Courtney Andersen (03:20):
Yeah, cause, how long have you been sober
for?
Arlina Allen (03:23):
I got, so I just celebrated 31 years.
So it's been a minute, it'sbeen like a whole lifetime.
I'm actually sober longer thanI was, so I was like 25 when I
got sober and I'm 56 now, soit's, yeah, been sober longer
than I wasn't.
Courtney Andersen (03:41):
You got sober young.
Arlina Allen (03:43):
Girl, I crashed and burned.
It was like of no like virtue.
Courtney Andersen (03:48):
When did your active addiction start?
It was young, right.
Arlina Allen (03:52):
Yeah, I wasn't a daily drinker after I started,
but I had my first drink betweeneight and ten.
Like I was really young, likemom, when my parents had
divorced and I was seven, my momwent out on a date and I
decided it'd be a great idea todrink some of the booze that was
in the bottle, which was weird.
I'm not really sure where thatcame from because I didn't see
my parents drink.
(04:12):
They were like total goody, twoshoes type of people, but there
was a dusty old bottle leftover from some party or
something and I thought it'd bea great idea to take a drink.
And it was not a great idea, asit turns out.
Courtney Andersen (04:27):
No well, I mean especially so young.
Like that, when you first tastealcohol right, and it's just
again.
Even when I started drinkinglater on, at 19, it's nobody
starts drinking, being like Ihope I have a problem right,
like that's just not in yourmind that one day down the road
you could have a problem withdrinking right and especially I
didn't know that drinking couldbe a problem Right, exactly,
(04:49):
exactly.
So, yeah, eight was young for afirst sip.
All right, wasn't it?
Nice, though, when you hit forme, when I hit 10 years, that to
me was like and I'll never saythat I fully made it right,
because I will always keep myego in check but for me that was
monumental for me, becausethat's how long I spent in that
(05:11):
active relationship, thataddiction with alcohol.
I spent 10 years in it.
So when I hit 10 years sober, Iwas like it's almost like I
could just breathe a little bitmore, I would say, and I
definitely was more comfortableafter that 10 years.
Did you have anything like thatwhere, because you are in
long-term sobriety, that's along, long time yeah.
Arlina Allen (05:36):
I don't remember.
Looking back, going oh, I drankfor this many years and now I'm
sober.
This many years I don'tremember.
But then again my memory isfailing me.
I don't know if it's the amountof weed I smoked or just my age
, Right.
Courtney Andersen (05:56):
It's all becoming a blur, if you know
what I mean.
Arlina Allen (05:57):
Yeah, there were definite milestones along the
way where I was like, whoa,that's my number.
Courtney Andersen (06:01):
Yes.
Arlina Allen (06:05):
You know.
What's funny, though, courtney,is there have been times when I
feel embarrassed about mynumber.
Really yeah, because,especially 31 years, I've had
people ask me like oh, do youeven remember what it was like?
You know, I don't think you canrelate to me because you've been
sober so long, like even incoaching, when I do discovery
(06:25):
calls with people, there's thishesitancy like are you going to
do?
You even remember what it waslike?
And I'm like bitch.
Of course I remember I was likethat's what keeps me sober.
You know what I mean?
So it's it's a and when Iactually I had a very weird
experience when I turned 20years sober, like I thought I
(06:46):
was going to be all excited.
I felt overwhelming shame that Iwasn't better already, that I
wasn't, that I was stillcarrying these.
But no, the overwhelming shameat turning 20 was is that I
still struggle with certainthings.
Right, like I had some prettytraumatic stuff happen to me
when I was really young sexualabuse, my parents' divorce, not
(07:09):
feeling a part of some otherthings that happened to me when
I was really young, and sohaving these traumatic
experiences causes me to maybeoverreact in certain situations.
Or like I was feeling why am Inot zen 24-7?
Like, why am I still havingthese up and down, ups and downs
(07:29):
?
Why am I still attracting?
Like I have all thesecodependency issues?
It's like, why am I stillattracting, attracting all these
sick people, like we werechatting yesterday about people.
It's like the helper, like,like maybe a sponsor, sponsor,
sponsor, mentor, menteerelationships, where there's a
power differential.
It's like why do I feel a needto be the helper all the time,
(07:52):
right, right, why do I have aproblem asking for help, right?
So at 20 years sober, I wasstill struggling with
codependency issues, workaholism, like all this stuff, and
feeling, wow, I've been soberfor 20 years and I'm not.
I'm still human.
Courtney Andersen (08:07):
Very disappointing, yeah, but that's,
that's the nature of it, right?
I mean again it for some peopleI'm not saying that you were
that, but for some people for avery long time, it's just about
not drinking that day and goingabout their daily life, and then
, and then you feel like you'vegot that and you feel secure and
(08:27):
grounded in that, and then youhave to start moving on to other
things.
If you also, too, have thatawareness Because some people
don't I'm not saying you don'thave an awareness the 20 years
into your sobriety, butsometimes when that comes up,
then that's when you're likewhat is this right?
I mean each year of my sobrietyand in my early days of my
(08:49):
recovery, it's though every yearit was something else where I
was like, oh, I need to work onthis now, right, and I only
think that I had that awarenessbecause I had been in therapy
since I was a kid.
Arlina Allen (09:14):
Yeah, do you know what I mean?
So some people just don't knowwhat it is, or it comes to them
in the time that it's supposedto because I had done so much
work, like I had done all thetherapies.
Like as soon as I got soberwell, to backtrack a little bit,
I went to Tony Robbins.
I started like getting exposedto Tony.
It was like this idea that ifyou change your mind, you can
(09:39):
change your life and how to getleverage over yourself and all
these, and it like blew my hairback.
I was like, oh my gosh, this isamazing.
And that kind of set the stagefor me to be able to get sober,
maybe like a couple years later.
And so when I was able to putdown like the drugs and alcohol,
I fully dove into this personaldevelopment space.
So I was doing all kinds ofself-reflection and therapies
(10:04):
and eventually did things likeEMDR and all this.
I did all the things.
So I think my experience of wow, 20 years in and I'm still not
fully healed, still human, waskind of alarming to me and I
think it was just like a deeperacceptance of this awareness
(10:25):
that I have neuroscience termsthey call it the default mode
network, which is very tied toidentity, and that I've been
telling these stories about whoI think I am, that it became so
ingrained that it's verydifficult to break out of these
patterns.
And to be fair to me and peoplewho struggle with addiction, we
(10:49):
have these things for a reason,like being human is hard enough
, but being human and carryingcertain traumatic experiences is
a whole other animal.
Courtney Andersen (11:02):
Let's say yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Do you remember, though, a yearlike that, a year into in your
sobriety journey, that there wasa milestone year that really
felt good to you, right thatwhere you didn't have the shame
of the number and whatnot, or acouple of them?
If you had a couple likemilestone years where you're
(11:22):
like that was good year?
Arlina Allen (11:27):
milestone years where you're like that was a
good year.
Yeah, I got to tell you thatfirst year when I picked up my
first chip, it did feel likethis huge accomplishment.
It was like graduating fromhigh school or like a huge.
It was a like in our culture wedon't have those like a rite of
passage.
We don't have a lot of those inour culture the ways others do,
(11:48):
but that really did feel like arite of passage where I picked
up my one-year chip for mysponsor, who actually just
passed away last Saturday.
It hasn't even been a week yet.
Courtney Andersen (11:58):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Arlina Allen (11:59):
Yeah, and I write about like my book is based on
my work that I did with her myfirst year.
Her name was Kimmers and so allin the book I write about my
experience with her, but she wasthe one that gave me.
She and I did a lot of worktogether and she helped me
through some man.
That first year is just roughbecause you're it's the first
(12:22):
time you're bumping up againstholidays, your birthday.
As women, we have our cycles andthe roller coaster of your
hormones and your dopamine allresetting and healing.
Like she was by my side throughthat whole thing and that felt
like such a milestone toaccomplish an entire year, like
(12:49):
such a milestone to accomplishan entire year where prior to
that, I think I the longest Iwent was like I made it to noon
without a bong hit one day.
It was like that was like thebest I could do at the time, so
to make it an entire.
And that's why the name of mypodcast is the One Day at a Time
Recovery Podcast, because itwas really this idea and I
realize it's like a mind hack,but it was really maybe I'll
(13:11):
drink tomorrow but not today.
Maybe I'll smoke weed tomorrowbut not today.
And there were some days whereit was like I need to call
somebody to help me get throughthe next hour.
Right, it could be an hour at atime.
Yeah, Right, yeah, it could bean hour at a time, a minute at a
(13:49):
time.
I didn't have those, A lot ofthose real like white knuckle
moments, but because I alwayshad, I always had support,
always had people.
Courtney Andersen (13:51):
I joined 12 step early, so I always had
people I could call that wouldhelp me process feelings to
resolution, which was a skilland a tool that I didn't have
prior.
Right, Getting sober Rightright.
Well, I'm sorry for your lossand I'm happy you had her in
your life Me too.
Arlina Allen (13:59):
And I'm glad she got to read the book.
Yeah, I'm glad she reallyunderstood what it meant to like
what her role in my life meant.
Yeah, I'm glad she reallyunderstood what it meant to like
what her role in my life meant.
Courtney Andersen (14:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
That was a blessing for surethat she got to read that One
year.
Was there another year thatstood out to you?
Arlina Allen (14:17):
I mean, 30 was pretty big, that was like do you
, though?
Courtney Andersen (14:22):
do you celebrate for your sober
birthdays?
Arlina Allen (14:28):
It's funny.
So when I was up until sixyears ago I lived in San Jose
and went to a bunch of meetingsand had a large community and if
you stay sober for a while yousort of have a level of
visibility in the community.
My husband had been sober evenlonger than me and was super
(14:49):
active and my husband's, likethat, one of those guys.
Everybody just loves him.
He's just a super nice guy.
He's going super funny andcharming and handsome.
He likes it when I talk abouthim on podcasts.
He's amazing and so wheneverthere was a milestone I was
funny.
I was one of those people likeearly in sobriety I wanted like
(15:13):
birthdays was were reallyimportant to me, like my
birthday other, my sobrietybirthday they were.
they were like really importantto me and I would get
disappointed when there wasn'tpeople like, oh, nobody threw me
a party and I was like you knowwhat, I'm gonna do my own damn
party.
So twice a year I would getdisappointed when there wasn't
people like, oh, nobody threw mea party and I was like you know
what, I'm going to do my owndamn party.
So twice a year I would throwmyself a party.
I celebrated my birthday andthey were about six months apart
(15:35):
.
So twice a year I would justinvite over a whole bunch of
people.
We'd have potlucks, we'd havepeople over for UFC fights, I
mean we just and it was a bigdeal.
And then, as I got, and then the20 was the big one, where I it
was.
It was huge.
We rented, we rented a hall.
There was like a couple hundredpeople that came.
It was.
(15:55):
It was a big party.
But 30 was interesting becauseI didn't make a big hullabaloo
about it, like it was, and forme it was sort of like a growth
experience where I was like Idon't need external validation.
There was.
I did post on on social mediabecause that's the one thing I
do every year Acknowledge it.
(16:16):
It's important to acknowledge,but I didn't feel the need to
like be celebrated.
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (16:22):
Do you?
Arlina Allen (16:22):
know what I mean.
It was like a quiet sense ofgrowth that I didn't need that
this year or last year.
Courtney Andersen (16:31):
For sure, I'm one for celebrating and
whatever you decide to do, right, we used to travel around that
time around my sober birthday.
Now that I have the dictatorand where he's at with his age,
but is he almost four, almostfour, yes, and on September
he'll be four, but yeah, so wedo a cake and blow out the
(16:52):
candles.
There was actually a book on my, on our kitchen table this
morning that I just got, and ithad to do about quitting
drinking alcohol.
And he's like, mama, what'sthis book?
I said, well, buddy, it's aboutquitting drinking alcohol.
I was like we'll talk aboutthat later down the road and he
was like, why?
That's like a bunch of why's.
Right now I was like, yeah, Isaid it's just a topic we'll
have to discuss, but yeah, so Irecommend to anybody to
(17:15):
celebrate that and whatever youdecide to do, I think that's
awesome.
At 20 years you had that rager.
I think that's great.
20 years is a long time it's abig milestone.
(17:38):
Hey, good people of the world,it's Courtney, and if you're in
your first year or your fifthyear of sobriety, let's be real.
Summers can be tough, like avery, very, very challenging.
It took me a couple summers tofinally feel comfortable.
There's something about warmweather, parties and poolside
drinks that can make it feellike everybody's drinking but
you.
But just because drinkingculture ramps up, especially
(17:58):
during this time, doesn't meanyour progress has to slow down.
That's where a tool likeSoberlink can help.
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(18:20):
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(18:42):
be the next Soberlink and Iwant you to be the next.
Visit wwwsoberlinkcom.
Forward slash sober dash vibesto sign up and receive 50% off
your device today.
You can also check the link inthe show notes below.
All right, so with your book.
(19:06):
What made you to decide towrite specifically this topic,
right?
Arlina Allen (19:13):
Oh man, yeah, it was so funny because there's all
this.
So 12 Step has a tradition thatyou maintain your anonymity at
the level of press, radio andfilm.
Now they're including podcastsand print social media.
Blah, blah, blah.
That's not really something Iactually agree with because in
the days of social media, I feellike AA's public relations
(19:35):
policy is a little bit outdatedin the sense that I get the
reason for anonymity, like BradPitt caught a lot of flack for
saying that he was a member ofAlcoholics Anonymous and on one
hand people are like that's good, he's bringing a lot of
exposure to it, but on the otherhand, people are like no,
because if he relapses then he'sa bad example.
(19:57):
And I'm like that is fuckingridiculous because, for a
variety of reasons, there is norepresentative.
There is no one person thatrepresents the entire
organization.
The thing is is that AA is afellowship of people who are
fundamentally mentally ill,myself included.
(20:19):
Right, I'm not saying this fromsome sort of high ground at all
.
Right, right, it's like peoplego there because they have
challenges with mental health.
Right, it's not the hotbed ofmental health.
Let's say, and sometimes peopleand I just want to say right up
front that the steps and thefellowship are two separate
(20:40):
things.
It's like soap and water.
They're kind of intended towork together, but sometimes the
soap is not palatable.
The people are flawed, for sure.
I mean people in general areflawed, and I remember talking
to this girl who was having the.
She got sober through the yogacommunity and she's like you
know what?
There's yogis that are verywell known for being
(21:02):
inappropriate and scandalous.
Like, wherever you go, therethey are.
So it's not like the fellowshipis any different, but there
there are.
I wrote the book because I,because of a's public relations
policy.
What is being spread in socialmedia are messages from people
(21:23):
who are angry about it went.
They had a bad experience withthe people, yes, or maybe the
literature they didn't get, andso the book is about presenting
context and perspective.
Courtney Andersen (21:35):
Yes.
Arlina Allen (21:35):
You challenging ideas and I think that 12 step
in general is veryconfrontational.
The purpose is to break yourdenial and what's interesting is
, people want to.
They want the transformationwith their current belief system
and that's not how this works.
Courtney Andersen (21:52):
Yeah.
Arlina Allen (21:53):
You cannot solve a problem with the mind that
created it.
Courtney Andersen (21:55):
Right and so people get offended.
Arlina Allen (21:58):
People get offended.
They're like fuck this, I'm out, right and I totally get it
Right.
Like you go there vulnerable,scared, broken, whatever, and
you bump into some people whoare unkind or very strict
there's a lot of really strictold timers and people get their
feelings hurt and they throw thebaby out with the bathwater
(22:29):
water and after doing, I think,380 episodes talking to people
who get sober through a varietyof ways, I always ask people if
they're 12-step oriented,because some people we need to
be because of the tradition ofmaintaining your anonymity,
people are sensitive about howthey share.
So I want to honor that.
And when people say, no, Ididn't do the steps, there's a
difference between going tomeetings and doing the steps.
(22:49):
People will often go to themeetings and say I tried AA, it
wasn't for me, I left and I'mlike did you do the steps?
No, well then you didn't do AA,right?
That's a very poignantdistinction that I want to make.
If you didn't do the steps, youdidn't try AA, you just went to
meetings and that's fine.
Some people get sober just bygoing to meetings.
(23:10):
But that's not the program.
That's not what AA is to do thesteps.
So I just want to be very super, ultra clear about what that is
.
I was just, I just feel I hadsuch an amazing experience like
actually working the steps.
It was super transformative, itwas very practical.
(23:31):
It's pragmatic.
That I was like, especially thefourth step, where you go
through all your pastresentments and hurts and
everything and then you getclarity about what is your
responsibility and what isn't.
And sort of the mechanics of whyyou have these resentments, and
it was such a freeing, magicalexperience for me and having
(23:54):
these spiritual experiences thatyou really can't.
It's like I liken it to try todescribe an orgasm to someone
who's never had one.
It's like it's something thatyou have to experience.
Yes, yes, absolutely so.
A spiritual experience issomething that you have to have
your own experience tounderstand what that, what
(24:17):
that's like, and so my attemptin this book was to honor
people's acknowledge and honorthe problems of the program,
which are there are many,acknowledge and honor the
problems of the program, whichthere are many, and offer some
context and perspective so thatpeople can overcome the common
hurdles that I see over and overand over again.
Like I was telling you, likewhen I would do the pre-chat
(24:38):
interview for the podcast,people say they didn't do 12
steps.
I'd be like why?
And they would give me theirperspective and in the back of
my mind, I'm like that's not athing, there's absolutely a path
around that obstacle, Becauseultimately, what I want is for
people to have the experienceand go through the process of
(24:58):
breaking that denial, findingout what's their responsibility,
being able to let go of what'snot and be able to move through
life without feeling triggeredor to drink and really
experience that freedom thatlife has to offer.
It's so little about quittingdrinking as it is.
(25:20):
It's more about how to live avery full, fulfilling, happy
life.
It's really not about alcoholat all.
It's about dealing with all theunderpinnings that compel people
to drink in the first place.
So I was like after a while Ijust couldn't stand it.
People are saying all thesehorrible things or misinformed
(25:41):
things.
It is a cold, like all thesethings that people say about 12
step.
I'm like that's not actuallytrue.
Courtney Andersen (25:47):
Yeah.
Arlina Allen (25:48):
And so I just clarify.
Courtney Andersen (25:50):
Yeah, and that's great because it is a
very helpful tool.
When I and I say it, I have mythings with the program and but
I always suggest and like youneed to go and try it.
You can't just.
That's why I won't ever go fullblown on my thoughts about it,
even though I did participate init.
(26:12):
And I respect everybody's wayto recover and get help and
whatever works best for them isgreat.
And there are, there are I'mkind of like what we were
talking about yesterday on yoursthere's always going to be some
shitty people in any type oforganization, because there are
just some shitty people outthere in life and that's
(26:33):
terrible and then that's yourexperience with it.
But that's why I will never, Iwon't ever dog it, because it's
helped so many people.
And I never understood the thingwith Brad Pitt, because it's
well, he's not outing anybody inthat program, you know what I
mean For him to be able to say Iuse that as a tool or as help
to get sober, because that manhad some issues.
(26:55):
Great, what is that?
He didn't throw anybody else's.
He didn't throw anybody elseunder that bus.
Arlina Allen (27:03):
He didn't break anybody else's anonymity is the
thing.
Courtney Andersen (27:07):
No, and somebody should be able to sit
there and be loud and proud andbe like, yeah, this is what I
use, because, again, when I gotsober, I had to be complete, 180
of what I was to help mecontinue going forward.
And that was speaking out aboutit, and that was being proud of
my sobriety and not feelinglike I had to whisper talk about
(27:29):
being sober.
It's well, that's what I did inmy, my act of addiction.
You know what I mean.
So I'm glad that you wrote yourbook and I'm very excited to
read it.
Yeah, and I'm honest.
Arlina Allen (27:39):
I just have to say that I lean into the
problems.
Courtney Andersen (27:43):
Yeah.
Arlina Allen (27:49):
I do.
I lean into it.
I recognize that there are somechallenges with it.
Yes, and I call it out becauseI'm like here's a way around it.
Courtney Andersen (27:57):
Yeah, and that's what people need you know
of.
But going back is I'm nevergoing to say anything, to a
point where it's you shouldn'tdo that, and that's where I
think this problem now ishappening with people giving out
their opinions.
It's where you could reallydeter somebody from going and
(28:20):
walking into that programbecause of your personal
experience and then them notgetting help that they need it
drives me crazy, and this justhappened recently.
Arlina Allen (28:32):
There's many people who are building
businesses, sober, coachingbusinesses, where their platform
is to bash yeah, right, drivesme crazy, and I take a
screenshot of it.
This, this gal, she, and it'sin such a sneaky, backhanded way
.
They're like, oh, I'm justsharing my experience and I was
(28:54):
like, hey, this is not okay,like I don't understand.
I kind of I do have compassionfor people who had a bad
experience.
I really do.
I just I don't see the need tobash it, but people have a bad
experience and then they feelthe need to discuss it with
everyone.
So this gal is, she's 10 yearssober, she spent five years in
(29:14):
AA and she's I'm coming up on 10years and and so now I want to
help people who have left AAbecause it doesn't.
And so these people who are onsocial media all the time saying
if it works for you, that'sgreat.
It didn't work for me, andhere's why Let me give you the
litany of misinformation of whyit didn't work for me.
(29:38):
And it just drives me crazybecause I'm like and then so,
when I posted about it, I waslike, hey, people are still.
This is the reason why I wrotethis book because every day,
people are going on social mediatalking about why it didn't
work for them.
And and this girl came at meand she was like you, of all
people, should know better thanto bash another woman's.
(30:01):
And I was like, excuse me, likeI'm not bashing how she chooses
to remain sober.
What I'm saying is it'sinappropriate, like I don't
appreciate her saying thesenegative things about something
that actually works for millionsof people.
(30:36):
Right, right, it's anopportunity to go deeper.
Courtney Andersen (30:40):
Well, yeah, and here's the thing too with.
I mean, my thing has alwaysbeen take what you want, leave
the rest.
And that that is for anythingin life take what you want and
leave the rest.
But nowadays it's well, wheredo I meet sober people?
And it's there is one of thegreatest communities of people
(31:04):
that you could meet and gothrough that route of meeting
people in AA who are sober andyou could find some like-minded.
Same thing too, as we talkedabout yesterday and I will link
when this episode comes out Iwill link that episode on your
podcast too.
But that for anything like wetalked about, like sometimes
(31:26):
you're not going to find thebest therapist right off the bat
, you're not going to vibe wellwith that person.
They might not.
You might not have done yourhomework to really learn, like
about what they specialize in.
Right, they might tell you youdon't have a drinking problem as
you're sitting there being likedoc, please help me.
And you have to go findsomebody where you're like man,
(31:48):
I really like this person.
It's no different for meetingsand I think that that's what
people they go to.
One they're like.
This isn't for me.
And then don't try to find adifferent one, or possibly two
for women to sit at a women'stable, because I'm a firm
believer that men and women inthe space it's completely
different, because men do nothave periods.
(32:10):
Men do not deal with hormonesthe way that women do, and it's
different that so they'redealing with hormones, but it's
a whole nother ball of wax,right?
So I just think that peoplehave to.
When you walk into that, you dohave to give it an honest go
and if that meaning doesn't vibewith you, go to a couple
different ones, maybe go to adifferent location, and just try
(32:35):
After trying.
If it doesn't work out, then itdoesn't work out for you.
But not to take that experienceand then twist it for your
personal gain Because, like Isaid, that could really, really,
really that program could helpsomebody in your audience and by
you saying not to do it, it'sawful.
(32:56):
It's awful Because at the endof the day, we all want people
to get help and to quit drinkingand however you end up doing
that, whatever program or roadyou go down, that works for you,
it's great.
So let's just all respecteverybody's recovery.
Arlina Allen (33:17):
I am all about if , if the yoga community helped
you get sober, that's awesome.
If, like, you have a communityTommy Rosen has a community
there's like a bunch of peoplehave communities and because
that's really the thing is, weneed to surround ourselves with
people who are also not drinking, who can get us through those
(33:38):
tricky times.
Like we need support, we needto be able to talk to people, we
need to be able to help andreceive help, find new meaning
and purpose in life, and so, atthe end of the day, I'm like
listen, I am very clear this iswhere it sounds almost
hypocritical, because I'm veryclear that there are some people
who are so hurt, have hadnegative experiences.
(34:02):
You can listen.
There's like people withreligious trauma.
I had a fair amount ofreligious trauma and 31 years
ago, if I had had, there wasnothing else available when, I
got.
There was nothing else availableand had there been other
options, I probably would havetaken them.
Yeah, and I would have missedthe amazing experiences that I
(34:24):
had through 12 step.
Yeah, I would have missed it.
I would have been one of thosepeople that said I'm not doing
that shit.
God, what are you talking about?
What are what's up with allthese dudes?
Actually, that would have beenan attraction for me.
It was all the men, but what?
There's a bunch of summer dudesI hook up with.
Are you kidding me, right?
But yeah, I, I just I'm allabout and I listen and I've
(34:46):
tried all the other things.
Yeah, rather, I participate inthe yoga community.
I've done all the therapies andI like to do all any tools.
There's so many, so I just liketo do all of them.
But that, the reason I keepcoming back to 12-step is
because it's sort of just and Ithink I went so long just
because there were.
(35:07):
I had a large community.
That's where I saw all myfriends.
That's kind of where I gotright size.
I could do service, I couldreceive help, but I could walk
into a room and hug 20 of mygirlfriends.
Courtney Andersen (35:20):
Right, exactly, exactly.
So what are three bigmisconceptions that you wrote in
your book?
And that to help people workaround?
Arlina Allen (35:32):
So I would say the three big ones.
There are ideas around God,powerlessness and alcoholism,
right and right off the top.
I want to say that words can beredefined, yeah, right.
So some people are like I'm notgoing to use a shame label.
Okay, I get that In your mind.
(35:53):
Alcoholism means something veryspecific to you.
I started going to meetings andI started meeting.
I like to go to the bougie partof town, so I was in Silicon
Valley, so I'd be going to LasGadas meetings where all the
rich, fancy people were and Iwas like these are alcoholics,
like I want to be like thesepeople.
And then that was justsuperficial people who have the
(36:18):
courage to confront all of theiryou know obstacles, all of
their challenges, all of their,and really dig deep and do this
really hard work ofself-reflection to be free on
the other side of it.
Right, it's almost like theharder the challenge, the freer
you are on the other side of it,and people were doing these
(36:42):
self-reflective exercises.
And so these were people andthey were doing this service
work and they were some of themost generous, spiritual, loving
, kind, compassionate peoplethat I had ever met and still
hold in such high regard.
They were in like leadershippositions, but also people who
(37:03):
are bus drivers, teachers,janitors, I mean I hate to say
it in that way, but you knowwhat I'm talking about like this
, from every socio economicprofile that you can imagine.
We're just like these people ofdeep love and compassion,
really, and and I was like whoathese people are badass.
And so for me, the wordalcoholic is sort of like a
(37:26):
badge of honor, because peoplewho use that word oh, I'm an
alcoholic people who use thatword are typically 12-step
oriented and so it just meanssomething totally different to
me.
And the reason that they usethat.
I don't think people understandthat.
The reason that people say hi,my name's Arlene, I'm an
alcoholic is because when Afirst started, all kinds of
(37:48):
people were going to thosemeetings.
It was family members,clergymen, researchers, like all
kinds of people were going andpeople were sharing.
Like the people who actuallyneeded to share weren't given
the opportunity because allthese other people were sharing.
So then they started makingrules around only people that
are alcoholic can share.
Courtney Andersen (38:09):
Right.
So that's how that came aboutin the beginning of these.
Arlina Allen (38:11):
That's how it came about, and it just became
sort of like this part of thelexicon that people started.
Courtney Andersen (38:18):
And part of.
Arlina Allen (38:20):
It's not in the book anywhere.
There's nowhere in the big bookof Alcoholics Anonymous that it
says you have to identifyyourself as an alcoholic.
It's not in it, that's just atradition, that that's like in
the military.
There's nowhere in the bookthat says where the mess hall is
right, but everybody knowswhere it's at.
You just follow the crowd, butthere there is a lot of pressure
(38:41):
among the peers for people tobe like.
They want you to use thatlanguage and some people dance
around it by saying I'verecovered, whatever.
So that's, it's just not athing.
Nobody can make you sayanything.
The powerlessness is alsointeresting.
I had a friend who hosts apodcast very high profile
(39:01):
podcast who said that she lookedat the steps and she was like
oh, but I don't feel like I'mpowerless.
I still feel like I have alittle bit of power.
So I feel like it would bedishonest for me to do that.
And I was like you realize thatthat's just a word in a phrase.
The phrase is powerless overalcohol.
I just want to drive that pointhome, that it's not powerless
(39:25):
in general in life.
It's powerless over alcohol,and my argument is is that if
anybody ingests alcohol, itkicks off a cascade of chemical
reactions that you cannotreverse at will.
Oh yeah, you know what I'msaying.
So in the sense, everybody ispowerless over alcohol.
Some of us just take it to anextreme where, like me, when I
(39:49):
start drinking alcohol, I haveno off switch.
On the contrary, I just wantmore.
And then I become mentallyobsessed by it, Like it's all I
can think about.
It's like I plan all my daysand activities around alcohol.
Courtney Andersen (40:04):
Yeah, the powerless one I've never
understood and that's one I'vetalked about too, and it's like
once you start drinking, you donot have control.
You do not have control overyourself and I'm sure 90% of the
time, if you sat and thoughtabout it, that that is true,
right?
Yeah, there's been a coupletimes where you're like I've had
(40:26):
a drink I mean, I'm just makinga broad statement here You've
had a drink and you're like,okay, I'm good, but because you
were probably more in a sense oftrying to control it in that
moderation cycle, you're tryingto prove to yourself like I got
it and then 90% of the time,it's no, because I'm the same
(40:48):
way.
As soon as I would have, Icould feel that off switch, go
off in my head after a couplesteps.
Right, and I think it's morepowerful to understand that that
this is something that I cannot.
I cannot consume anymorebecause I don't, I can't control
it.
So the most powerful thing forme to do is not to drink alcohol
(41:09):
.
That's how I can control it bynot drinking it's so much easier
.
Arlina Allen (41:13):
It's so much easier.
Courtney Andersen (41:14):
Yeah, I mean , I get it.
I'm not trying to sound like adick here, because I do
understand that people.
It is, it's nowadays peopledon't want labels and whatnot
but honestly it's, it really iscoming down to you understanding
that you cannot drink alcoholanymore.
(41:36):
Yeah, I mean, I'm very oh, goon.
Arlina Allen (41:40):
Well, I was just going to say like, yeah, I mean,
I'm very I.
Oh, go on.
Well, I was just gonna say likeI was a binge drinker.
I wasn't a daily drinker, right, and I'm sure I had a day or
two where I had just a coupledrinks, but it wasn't like
something bad happened everytime I drank, but every time
something bad happened I hadbeen drinking.
Courtney Andersen (41:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Arlina Allen (41:59):
Right, so it's not, it's not.
And then just overall, and Icould never predict when those
bad times were going to happen.
Yeah, I had to quit.
Courtney Andersen (42:09):
Yeah, I also think too of the alcoholic, of
why a lot of people have a hardtime with that.
I don't even think it hasanything to do with AA.
I really, truly don't with thatverbiage being used in there.
I think it's because it was theidea that has been put into our
brains of what a quote unquotealcoholic looks like, and that
(42:31):
is somebody homeless, beggingfor change, living under a
bridge.
Do you know what I mean?
But not every homeless personis out there because they had a
drinking problem, but not everyhomeless person is out there
because they had a drinkingproblem and that had been beat
into how it has played out inmedia and in I don't want to
even say books, but just howit's been played out in media,
(42:54):
and that is the idea that peoplehave.
So when people who are veryhigh functioning well, that's
not me, that's not me, I'm notas bad, and so there's always a
comparison right To the personwho was the extreme alcoholic.
Arlina Allen (43:11):
Yeah, and that's why.
That's why, when you go tomeetings, they often tell you
look for the similarities, notthe differences.
Courtney Andersen (43:17):
Yeah, which is great, yeah, but the
similarities.
Arlina Allen (43:21):
How am I like these people?
Look for reasons why it'sreally.
Look for reasons why alcohol isnot good for me.
I mean, at the end of the day,it's a neurotoxin.
It's.
Drinking today is borrowinghappiness from tomorrow because
there's no free lunch.
Even if you only drinkoccasionally, you know you're
going to pay the price for itthe next day, right?
Courtney Andersen (43:39):
yeah, yeah, for sure so.
Arlina Allen (43:41):
I mean there's no real good reason to drink,
especially as you get older.
Like your liver doesn'tfunction the way it used to when
you're young, you just can'tshake it off the way you used to
.
Courtney Andersen (43:51):
Well, and for women again, the
perimenopause, menopause cycle.
Men don't go through that.
So for women, as they get older, having alcohol in their lives,
it just gets worse and worseand worse and worse.
Arlina Allen (44:05):
I think for men the big deterrent is like the
sexual dysfunction right and thecognitive load as we get older.
We're competing against youngerpeople.
We really need to have our witsabout us.
Courtney Andersen (44:19):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely Well.
Where can people find thank youfor sharing all of this?
This has been a great Well.
Where can people find thank youfor sharing all of this?
This has been a great chattoday.
Where can people find you?
I will link everything to inthe show notes below, but where
can people, if they want toconnect with you, can find you?
Arlina Allen (44:34):
The main hub is soberlifeschoolcom.
That's where they can find thebook.
The book is on Amazon.
That's where they can find thebook.
The book is on amazon, butthat's where they can find.
They can get access to mycalendar.
I'll talk to anybody that wantsmaybe some resources.
I offer a free strategy call in15 minutes.
I can give people, if they wantto tell me kind of where
(44:56):
they're at.
Like I can help fill in theblanks for resources.
But but that's where you canget access to the podcast and
the book and me.
Courtney Andersen (45:04):
Well, great, great.
I'm excited to read your bookand, again, it was great to talk
to you two days in a row.
I know it's super fun.
Arlina Allen (45:11):
We should do this more often.
Courtney Andersen (45:14):
All right.
Well, thank you again for beingon this episode and we will
talk soon.
Thanks so much.
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