In episode 232 of the Sober Vibes podcast, I welcome Jeremy Lipkowitz to the show, and we discuss porn addiction, overcoming shame, and what to do if your husband has a porn addiction.
Jeremy opens up about his 15-year journey with porn addiction, beginning at age seven with a lingerie catalog and escalating to hours of daily online consumption by college. They unpack how porn rewires the brain, disrupts relationships, and becomes a hidden coping mechanism for emotional pain. Through his personal story and coaching expertise, Jeremy offers genuine, compassionate insight into how individuals can initiate the process of healing, recovery, and reconnection with themselves and others.
Whether you're personally affected, love someone who struggles, or are raising kids in this digital world, this conversation is a must-listen.
What you will learn:
- The three “A’s” that make porn addiction uniquely powerful: affordable, accessible, and anonymous
- How pornography addiction affects the brain, emotional health, and relationships
- What is betrayal trauma, and how does it affect the partners of porn addicts
- Why recovery is about mindfulness, connection, and healing, not willpower alone
- How to raise kids in a world where explicit content is just a swipe away
- Practical steps to start recovering from porn addiction or support a loved one who is
Key Takeaways:
- Addiction often begins with early exposure and escalates over time with tech access
- Porn hijacks the brain’s dopamine system and creates a craving for novelty over intimacy
- Most porn addicts live a double life rooted in shame, secrecy, and emotional numbing
- Social media can act as a slippery slope toward pornography and compulsive behavior
- Healing involves community, mindfulness, nervous system regulation, and inner child work
Connect with Jeremy Lipkowitz:
Resources Mentioned:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney Andersen (00:31):
Hey, welcome back to the Sober Vibes podcast
.
I'm your host and sober coach,courtney Anderson.
You are listening to episode232.
I'm also your guide to living akick-ass life without alcohol.
Today we got a great guest on.
I love talking with him.
I was on his podcast a fewyears ago and I just enjoyed our
conversation so much and I knowyou're going to enjoy this
(00:52):
conversation too.
So the topic's a little bitdifferent, but my guest today is
Jeremy Lipkowitz, and he is ameditation teacher, a men's
coach and a digital habitsexpert who works with
entrepreneurs, executives andleaders.
He is also the founder of theUnhooked Academy and the host of
(01:12):
the Unhooked podcast, where hehelps men break free of
destructive habits and build alife of purpose, discipline and
fulfillment.
So Jeremy talks today.
We talk about porn addictionand we talk about overcoming
shame in an addiction that isreally taboo, because porn
(01:32):
addiction is that.
For me, this was very, veryhelpful.
I had a guest on a couple ofyears back where we talked about
porn addiction, so this is justthe second time of talking
about this, but I think it'sgreat to have the awareness
especially mothers and fathersright, because how easily
(01:53):
accessible porn is.
Pornography is on thesecellular devices.
Okay, so I learned a lot.
So I learned a lot and Jeremyhas a great story of overcoming
this and his perspective onpornography and all that is good
(02:14):
.
He drops a couple ways on howyou can overcome that addiction.
So make sure you connect withhim and go follow him over on
Instagram or go listen to hispodcast and, honestly, jeremy's
got one of those voices youcould just listen to forever.
It's very soothing.
It's very soothing, so I'm surehe's a great meditation teacher
with this voice of his.
(02:35):
All right, I hope you enjoyedthis episode.
If you haven't yet, please rate, review and subscribe slash.
Follow the show wherever youget your podcast, because those
help, and feel free to reach outto me on Instagram, at Sober
Vibes, and let me know how thisepisode helped you today.
As always, keep on trucking andstay safe out there.
(02:55):
Hey Jeremy, welcome to theSober Vibes podcast.
I'm very excited to have you ontoday.
The last time we spoke wasactually a couple of years ago,
when I was on your podcast.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (03:07):
Indeed and I'm happy to be on yours, happy to
be here.
Courtney Andersen (03:11):
And since we spoke last, you moved to
Thailand, so enjoying it thereagain?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (03:15):
Yes, Totally Good food, good weather, amazing
people.
Courtney Andersen (03:21):
Yeah what I mean how.
What is the weather like there?
People, yeah what I mean how.
What is the weather like there?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (03:25):
It's hot.
So I mean, if if you can'thandle hot weather, it's
probably not good.
If you don't like going out inshorts and and and a t-shirt and
maybe some flip-flops, you canwear some more layers from time
to time, but usually it's, it'spretty hot out.
Courtney Andersen (03:42):
When you say hot, are we talking hot plus
muggy, or is it muggy like humidthere?
Okay, I just needed to knowthat I'm fine with that Not
always.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (03:52):
We're not right next to the equator.
It's way worse in some otherplaces that are closer to the
equator, and in Bangkok I'm.
In Bangkok it can have somenice days of cool weather and
yeah, but it's blue skies a lotof the time.
Sometimes it rains, but overalllife here is just it's more the
people.
I'd say the weather isn't thereason you come here.
The culture here is just sofriendly and so safe.
(04:15):
It's the safest country I'veever been to.
I feel so safe walking aroundand people are just kind.
You don't have to worry aboutgetting mugged or anything
stolen.
You can leave your laptop in acafe and go out for lunch and
come back an hour later and yourlaptop's still there.
Courtney Andersen (04:33):
I mean, how does that happen?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (04:36):
It's just the culture here.
That crime just doesn't happen.
I don't know if it's becauseit's like a Buddhist culture or
there's just a lot of safety,like those kinds of crimes.
Don't know if it's because it'slike a Buddhist culture or
there's just a lot of safety,like those kind of crimes don't
really happen.
Courtney Andersen (04:47):
Well, I like it.
My sister and I want to visitthere one day.
My sister-in-law lives inSweden and she was telling me
how you can just leave thebabies in the stroller before
going into the store.
And people just do that.
I'm like, say what?
I don't think I could justleave the little dictator
sleeping in a stroller and justcasually shop around.
But when it's the culture, andthat's all you know.
(05:09):
That's all you know.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (05:10):
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (05:11):
So, jeremy, why don't you share your story
today?
Because I've only ever talkedabout this topic once before,
years ago, about porn addiction,so I would love for you to
share that and really how itstarted and then in your
recovery process of it.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (05:30):
Yeah, so for the past I guess seven years or
so I've really been focused onworking with men with porn
addiction and helping themrecover and break free and break
free at the root source,because this addiction goes deep
and it's not just about pornbut all the ways we get addicted
.
So I've been doing that for thelast seven years and it really
stems from my own history withporn addiction which started.
(05:53):
I started looking atpornographic content when I was
seven, eight years old.
First, I think the very firstthing I remember was certain
like comic book characters thatwere really attracted to me and
kind of dressed in certain ways,but then it escalated into
looking at the lingerie catalogsthat would come in the mail.
(06:13):
Eventually we got the internetand you could start downloading
photos or videos and it justkept progressing.
By the time I got to universitythere was high-speed internet,
there were these tube sites thatyou could look and see
thousands upon thousands ofdifferent videos on a given
(06:33):
night, and so it progressed tothe place where I was watching
porn every night for one to twohours just on a daily, regular
basis, and I thought it wasnormal.
It's something I'd been doingsince I was seven, eight years
old and it's somewhat normalizedin our society.
People talk about it as if it'snormal and so I never really
(06:54):
noticed any issue, didn'trealize I had a problem and I
couldn't see the consequences.
This is one of the other thingswe can talk about, but a lot of
the consequences of pornaddiction are very subtle and
they're harder to spot unlessyou really know what to pay
attention for, as opposed tosome other types of addictions
where the consequences are veryobvious.
If you're drinking heavily, youwake up with a hangover and you
(07:17):
feel it.
If you're abusing other kindsof drugs, you know the
consequences.
But with porn addiction, a lotof these consequences are in the
ways that we relate to ourromantic partners, our views on
intimacy, our relationship withourself, maybe self-judgment or
self-criticism, body dysmorphiaand then also the ways it just
(07:39):
can really mess with yourability to focus and concentrate
and your dopamine systems, messwith your ability to focus and
concentrate and your dopaminesystems.
So I was experiencing this whenI was a young man and had kind
of a wake-up call where Irealized, hey, this is an issue
for me, this is causing a lot ofthe problems in my life that I
didn't know were related to this, but now I see the connection
(08:01):
and that's what cost me to walkdown this path of recovery and
break free.
Courtney Andersen (08:06):
Yeah, how old are you?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (08:09):
38.
Courtney Andersen (08:10):
Okay, so yes , and I just I'm 42.
So we're in the same generationhere, so that I'm just doing
the timeline of, because, again,nowadays you don't get catalogs
in the mail.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (08:22):
I mean like those catalogs don't, I don't
know these poor kids are livingin such a poor life.
A it was the most amazing thingto get the Victoria's Secret
catalog in the mail.
It was for a young boy, it wasgreat.
Courtney Andersen (08:33):
Right.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (08:33):
These kids now are spoiled.
Courtney Andersen (08:35):
Right.
I mean, the only catalog thatcomes to our house is the Costco
, so okay, so the catalogsbecause I'm just doing for the
listeners of the evolution, thenof the internet.
Plus, I want this conversationas well, because having a
three-and-a-half-year-old andraising a boy who will be a man
(08:58):
it is nowadays, it's going to bedifferent raising boys, right,
and so this is the kind of stuffthat I want to learn, as a mom,
of really what to watch out for.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (09:18):
So when, would you say at what age, did it
progress where you were watchingporn one to two hours a day?
I definitely remember when Iwas in college.
As soon as I had that freedomwhen I was a freshman in college
and lived in a dorm room it wasme and another freshman I
remember that's where it wasn'tnecessarily every night because
I still had to I was in a dormroom sharing sharing a room with
(09:39):
with another guy.
I actually remember one time hewalked in on me and it was the
most embarrassing thing, butstill to this day it kind of
embarrasses me.
But I guess it was the nextyear when I moved out and had my
own room and high speedinternet.
The problem is kids are gettingthese devices younger and
younger and every kid has asmartphone and access to the
(10:00):
internet and it's just so mucheasier to access.
It's one of the things thatmakes porn addiction so highly
addictive.
We call it the three A's ofporn addiction it's affordable,
it's accessible and it'sanonymous.
So the more of these threethings that you have for any
addiction, the more addictiveit's going to be.
And porn is incrediblyaffordable because it's free.
(10:21):
It's incredibly accessiblebecause it's literally in
everyone's pockets and you canaccess it in seconds.
And it's also anonymous you cando it without anyone knowing,
and so because of these things,it really can seep in and young
kids are going to get it worsenow because they have it even
(10:41):
more accessible and it's moreaddictive because there's more
extreme content out there.
Courtney Andersen (10:46):
Yeah, so for you.
How did that start with youraddiction?
How did that start impactingyour life?
What were these signs that areharder to spot with somebody
with a porn addiction?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (11:01):
Yeah, one of the signs I started seeing was
how porn was making me haveunrealistic expectations about
my romantic partners.
I started to notice that I wascomparing all my real life
partners to porn and expectingbecause if you watch porn every
(11:22):
day for two hours a day, on asubconscious level you're just
expecting oh, this is what womenshould look like.
They should all be porn starsand young and perfect and no
blemishes.
And so you'd start to developjust these unrealistic
expectations.
The other thing that I startedto notice was the ways that it
was impacting my craving fornovelty in my romantic
(11:45):
relationships.
Because when you log onto aporn site, especially these high
speed tube sites and this isthe new evolution of porn makes
it so much more damaging.
When you have these tube siteswhere you're scrolling through
hundreds of videos, hundreds ofthumbnails, trying to find which
one to watch, every time yousee a new face or a new video,
(12:07):
your brain gets a littledopamine hit, and every time you
search for a new term or clicka button or click a link, again
that dopamine hit happens.
And so what's happening is youare hardwiring your brain to
expect its dopamine, to expectthe reward, the feeling good,
from novelty.
Now what this does in terms ofa relationship is you start
(12:30):
dating someone, you startgetting intimate with them, but
then you're kind of, you startto get bored and you think, well
, I need something new, I needsomething novel, I need
something exciting.
So this is one of the things Inoticed was that I was
constantly moving fromrelationship to relationship,
and it wasn't because anythingwas wrong with the people I was
dating.
It was because my brain hadgotten hooked on the novelty,
(12:53):
thinking, oh, there must besomeone slightly better.
Because that's what you do whenyou're searching through these
tube sites You're looking for aslightly better video, a
slightly new genre.
So that was another thing, thefinal kind of piece that the
final straw that broke thecamel's back was.
I remember walking down thestreet one day.
(13:15):
I was 23, 24 years old I forgetexactly how old, but I remember
it was a beautiful day, my lifewas good.
I had good grades in school, Iwas captain of a sports team, I
was well-liked by people.
So my life was good.
But I remember walking down thestreet and seeing these two
young women walking in front ofme and I remember being so
(13:38):
consumed by lust in that moment.
I was staring at their bodiesand just consumed with this
feeling of craving and sexualdesire and lust, and in that
moment it felt like this bigblack hole opened up inside of
me.
It was this big void, thisemptiness, and what I realized
is that the experience of lustitself is a state of suffering
(14:01):
and that every time I waslogging onto a porn site and
watching porn, I was literallyhardwiring the neural pathways
of lust.
I was hardwiring in the neuralpathways of suffering because I
was focused on trying to getwhat I couldn't, what I didn't
have, kind of.
(14:26):
The final wake-up straw wasrealizing that this lust, this
experience of wanting somethingI don't have, that it was
consuming my life and in largepart it was because of
habitually logging onto theseporn sites.
The thing that helped merealize this was understanding
neuroplasticity.
There was this quote that Iread neurons that fire together,
wire together, and it made merealize that I was hardwiring in
those habitual patterns in mymind.
Courtney Andersen (14:48):
Yes, were you using, though at all?
Were you using porn when youwould watch it one to two hours
a day?
Was that you numbing out?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (15:00):
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (15:00):
You know, like with alcohol, like it's a
lot, like okay, this is numbingwhen we drank, it's to numb out.
So that's I wondered what theporn addiction does?
It become like that where itjust becomes so habitual again
with that dopamine hit thatyou're getting and then it's
just eventually numbing out.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (15:18):
Exactly, it's entirely.
It's a numbing out thing.
So many people who haven'texperienced porn addiction or
aren't familiar with it theythink, oh, people who are
addicted to porn are like sexualdebians or they have really
high sex drives or they'reperverts.
But for most men who strugglewith porn addiction, porn isn't
(15:38):
about being horny, it's notabout them kind of having a high
sex drive.
It's a coping mechanism.
It's a way to numb out, toself-medicate when they're
feeling some emotionaldiscomfort, loneliness, sadness,
anger, and so it's entirelykind of a coping mechanism and
(15:59):
it was.
For me it was a, it had to be,I mean, a nightly thing on the
dot, it was just a routine as away to numb out and self-soothe.
Courtney Andersen (16:10):
But did it start like that?
So it started.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (16:14):
Yeah, this is a really good thing to bring in,
because one thing that I reallyhope anyone listening to this
takes away is sexuality is abeautiful part of being human.
It's one of the most wonderfulparts of being human is our
sexuality, and there'sabsolutely nothing wrong with
sexuality, and it's natural foryoung men in particular also
(16:35):
young women, but for us to becurious about sex and to curious
about self-pleasure, and whenyou see someone or something
that makes you feel good inthose parts of your body, it's
oh, I feel this tinglingsensation, it feels good, what
is this?
And so, of course, it's anatural exploration.
So it didn't start out as, oh,I need to numb.
(16:57):
It started out as a wow, thisfeels really good, and I can do
this on command, like I know howto get this feeling.
And I can do this on commandLike I know how to get this
feeling Right.
And when I want to feel good,oh, I can go get that hit by
grabbing one of these catalogsor dialing up on AOL.
Now it's just much moreaccessible which again is it's
(17:20):
like the way porn used to be.
It wasn't that damaging.
Courtney Andersen (17:23):
No.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (17:24):
The way it is now, it's a whole different
beast.
Courtney Andersen (17:28):
Yeah, especially too.
I mean you look at the biggerpicture too, with sex
trafficking and a lot of thewomen who get into that.
It's because of trafficking, soit becomes a bit of a.
There's many layers to that.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (17:43):
Oh yeah, non-consensual videos, rape porn
, I mean there's so manyhorrible things on there, not to
mention now AI porn is a wholething and it's actually it's
really messed up because it cango very dark and very extreme
and because it's AI, it's notreal, for example, like child
(18:04):
porn.
Ai.
It's not real, for example,like child porn.
Ai can make child porn and theauthorities, the cops, are
having a hard time kind oftracking this and understanding
what's real, what's AI, and sothey're having a hard time
tracking the real perpetratorsof that kind of material because
there's so much of an influxfrom this AI stuff.
So there's so many kind ofthings with the new generation
(18:27):
of technology AI girlfriends andVR headsets and your boys are
in for a wild ride ahead of them.
Courtney Andersen (18:34):
Yeah, I just want yes.
And that's where.
And again, it's, it's, oh, it'swith raising young men.
Nowadays, there's just a lot ofeducation.
I'm going to have to help.
Same thing with my husband.
I've told him that I was like,so when we have the sex
conversation, we have to keepthis open and in the phone.
My goal is not to get him aphone until he's like 60.
(18:59):
So and I don't even want.
Yeah, it's funny because my bestfriend has a son and he's, I
think he's 11.
And he keeps being like Mom,what if something happens to me?
She's like you, let me figurethat out, you're not getting a
phone.
And she's like Courtney.
This is harder and harder to doas these kids get older,
because all of their friendshave phones.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (19:18):
And Instagram and Snapchat, and it's their
social hierarchy.
Courtney Andersen (19:23):
Right, exactly so it's just.
It's going to be veryinteresting as he gets older and
older.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (19:29):
But just on that note, just for anyone
listening who kind of isinterested in this, and for you
as well, there's a phenomenalbook called the Anxious
Generation by Jonathan Haidt.
Courtney Andersen (19:38):
I will link that.
I'm actually it's in my Amazoncart, so that one.
But I will link that book inthe show notes below.
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You can also check the link inthe show notes below.
So for you then, what was yourrecovery process?
(21:27):
How did this look for you whenyou probably came to your own
quote, unquote rock bottom whereyou're like I can't function
like this anymore?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (21:35):
Yeah, I mean, that was exactly it.
It was a moment of waking up tomy reality and saying I can't
keep living like this.
So I guess that's actuallyimportant to dive into a little
bit is when I had thatrealization of all these ways
porn was impacting me.
I had this realization of if Ikeep living like this and I saw
where it was leading me.
(21:55):
Like this is the problem withany one act of watching porn
it's not going to ruin your life.
But when it becomes who you are, that's where it can lead to
some dark places.
And what I saw was I washeading down a dark pathway of
being just kind of consumed bylust, totally driven by seeking
out indulging in pleasure, and Irealized I can't keep living
(22:19):
like this.
I need to figure out some otherway of living.
So that got me interested injust the topic of happiness.
What is happiness?
What does it mean?
To be content, to be at peace?
And I started getting into thesebooks on Buddhist philosophy
and neuroplasticity andmindfulness and that ended up
being really my pathway ofrecovery was through meditation
(22:42):
and mindfulness andself-compassion and really
learning how to train my mind,how to be aware of my habit
patterns and intentionallychoose better, to make better
choices, more skillful choices.
So a lot of meditation trainingended up.
Traveling to india startedgoing on these silent meditation
(23:02):
retreats.
These were like 10-day retreats, where you're not talking or
reading or writing or making eyecontact with the other
participants.
You're really just being withyourself and observing your
experience for 10 days, andthose types of retreats formed a
lot of the foundation of myrecovery.
(23:22):
It's not what I wouldnecessarily recommend for people
who are starting out today.
I think a component ofmindfulness and self-awareness
is, which is why I teach it inmy program.
But more importantly, what Iwish I had done earlier on is to
get connected to a community,to go to a men's group to learn
how to be vulnerable, to learnhow to get support, and not try
(23:44):
to do it on my own, becausethat's the big mistake a lot of
people make is trying to do iton their own.
Courtney Andersen (23:51):
Yeah, a lot Same thing in the space with
quitting drinking alcohol.
When you try to do it alone,it's just there's a lot of shame
.
And so how?
There's just a lot of shamethat you don't, you can't
sharing with somebody who getsit in that same space, by
starting to talk about it andopening up and being around
people who get it.
(24:11):
That is the power of healingshame For you.
How would you overcome shame inthis taboo addiction?
Because it is Because of goingback where it's like you were
looked upon as a pervert if youhave a porn addiction, or you
could be looked at becausepeople like to throw the word a
(24:33):
narcissist around, right, sothen you're categorized as this
person that you're absolutelynot.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (24:40):
Yeah, for whatever reason porn and sex
addiction and just porn andsexuality in general has so much
shame attached to it.
For some reason, as a humanspecies, we're just very much
ashamed of our genitals, of sex,of talking about masturbation,
talking about what we do withintimacy, and because of that,
(25:03):
when someone is struggling withporn addiction or sex addiction,
it feels like a very shamefulthing.
You know so many people whoexperience this just feel gross,
they feel broken, they feelunlovable, and so letting go of
that shame really is a keycomponent, and one of the best
(25:24):
ways to do it is to realizeyou're not alone.
Realize because that's whatshame tells us this lie that
says you are the only personwho's messed up in this way.
Everyone else is normal.
You're the weird one, you'rethe strange one, you're the
defective one.
That's what shame tells us.
So to combat that, you have tostart to recognize oh, I'm not
(25:47):
the only one, I'm not alone inthis.
There are other people andthere's reasons why I am this
way, like it makes sense, andit's not my fault.
I love this quote it's not yourfault, but it is your
responsibility.
It's like to recognize it's notyour fault, it is part of
society's fault, the billiondollar porn industry's fault,
(26:09):
all kinds of different things.
It's not.
You didn't want this to happenand it is your responsibility to
do something about it.
Courtney Andersen (26:18):
Yeah, yeah.
What helped you with overcomingyour shame of it.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (26:24):
It took me a long time.
It took me six years even afterI had I had stopped watching
porn.
It took me another six yearsbefore I could talk about it
with anyone.
And it was kind of just amoment of serendipity where I
had.
I was having a conversationwith another friend of mine.
We were in grad school together.
(26:44):
He was another graduate student.
We were both interested inmeditation, we were both in the
Buddhist meditation communityand we were just having coffee
one day and talking, I think,about what had gotten us into
meditation and I told him thatpart of what got me into
meditation was recognizing I hada porn addiction.
And I remember that moment sodistinctly because I remember it
(27:08):
was a huge weight coming off myshoulders to be able to talk
about it and to have the personI was telling just kind of nod
in agreement as if theyunderstood.
Courtney Andersen (27:17):
Yeah Right, do you look at the porn industry
now like looking back?
Do you look at it with anger orcause?
At a point in my recovery withsobriety I looked at it a couple
of years in cause.
It's like a grieving processwith the drinking, because then
it's like yourself in that too.
But I did look back and wasangry at the alcohol industry.
(27:40):
Let's sure it's lawyers fiveo'clock somewhere, right.
And then nowadays too, evenwith especially in the States
currently there's a lot ofbanning artificial food dyes and
taking down big food, which Ithink is great.
There was a big thing about bigpharma, but there's really
nothing about big alcohol, right.
(28:01):
So it still makes me angry withthat.
But how do you now view thatthe porn industry?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (28:09):
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's so funny, as you mentioned, with the alcohol industry,
like it gets this big green hallpass where everyone else gets
the scrutiny.
But for some, the alcoholindustry it's just, it's the
drug that we've normalized andsaid well, it's just part of our
society and we celebrate theseaddictions in these ways the
(28:31):
t-shirts and the memes andeverything.
In these ways the t-shirts andthe memes and everything.
And porn is similar in someregards because of how
sexualized our media is.
I mean, sexualized media iseverywhere Instagram, tiktok,
movies.
I don't have a lot of angertowards it.
It's not really my nature.
Anyways, I'm not a very angryperson.
(28:52):
It makes me sad that there isso much harm being caused by it
and so many people unaware ofthe harms of it, and so I would
say that's more my response,because I wouldn't know who to
get angry at.
I mean, I could get angry atthe CEOs of Porn Hub, but and
rightfully so, I think therehave been some reporting to show
(29:14):
that those organizations arepretty awful in terms of what
they allow.
But yeah, people in my industry,in my field, who are porn is
(29:39):
evil and porn is a sin, andthat's not my philosophy.
I'm sex positive.
I'm kink positive.
If you have two consentingadults who know how to
communicate and you want to dosomething interesting, go for it
, and I have nothing against theidea, in principle, of watching
people have sex on on a screen,on a piece of paper.
It's the addiction that Ireally have the issue with, and
(30:01):
modern, high-speed internet pornjust is such a highly addictive
substance, particularly whenyou combine it with the
anonymity, the high degree ofaccessibility and variability.
It's just such.
And then you charge that intoour innate primal sexual drive
(30:22):
of young 12-year-old boys and12-year-old girls.
It's a recipe for addiction.
Courtney Andersen (30:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The person I interviewed acouple of years back that he
went that bar, he went to thatwhere it was like this is evil,
because again, I will never saygoing.
But just compare it with thiswith alcohol, I'm never.
There are some people who candrink and they don't have an
issue, right, it's just okay.
And same thing there are peoplewho watch porn that it doesn't
(30:50):
become an issue to.
But yes, so I'm glad that yousaid that.
When someone starts working ontheir porn addiction, what does
that look like?
Is that where they have?
Because you have to start inany addiction, you really have
to start rewiring your brain andworking more on healing getting
(31:12):
a dopamine hit elsewhere.
So what does that?
Does that even look like, thatfirst month of not watching porn
, where you're maybe haveincreased anxiety, maybe you're
a little depressed, tired?
I'm just trying to go through,especially with the listeners
understanding that, like howthis would look the withdrawal
(31:34):
of it.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (31:35):
Yeah, I mean, that's it.
There is a withdrawal period.
When you're used to getting ahigh dose of dopamine on a
regular basis For some guys it'smultiple times a day, it can be
multiple hours.
So when you're used to gettingthis high amount of dopamine
because it really does pressvery effectively on the dopamine
(31:56):
button when you're used to thatand then you cut it off, you do
go through withdrawal and it isvery challenging because
everything feels dull and gray.
You lose your energy andmotivation.
It's very hard to feel good, butif you can get through those
few weeks into that first month,you start to notice things
(32:17):
shifting and you get your energyback.
You feel more excited andmotivated for the day ahead and
things start to feel more.
You feel more present for yourlife.
Little, simple joys actuallystart to feel good again, like
just drinking a cup of tea orgoing for a walk and feeling the
(32:38):
sun, laughing with a friend.
These simple joys actuallybecome a part of your life again
.
But there is a withdrawalperiod and it's challenging,
especially with porn, becauseanalogy I like to give if you
were a cocaine addict and youwere trying to recover from
cocaine but you were forced tohave a little sachet of cocaine
(32:59):
in your pocket at all times andtake it with it with you
wherever you go.
That's what it's like to be aporn addict in recovery, because
you have access to it on yourphone everywhere you go.
It's literally right there, andso it can be very challenging
in those moments to break away,because it's just so accessible.
Courtney Andersen (33:21):
What do you recommend for somebody to break
away in that moment of time?
Because it is, it's in yourpocket.
It's in your pocket.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (33:26):
Yeah, so using things like web blockers can be
helpful.
There's a caveat there, whichis that they're helpful.
They give you some breathingroom.
They put a little more frictionin between you and acting out.
So oftentimes people are smartenough, they know okay what are
the loopholes, how can I getaround this, but at least it
(33:47):
puts some friction between youand acting out, so it makes it a
little bit less accessible.
So that's a good step.
But the caveat there is that ifyou rely entirely on blockers,
that's not going to work longterm.
The blockers are there to giveyou the breathing room to then
do the inner work of building upyour willpower, your restraint,
(34:08):
connecting with your values andwhat a life of integrity looks
like, not putting yourself inbad situations.
So this is another big thing.
It's understanding the impactof your environment and
understanding what are yourdanger zones.
So for a lot of guys, one ofthe most common things is a huge
danger zone is when a guy istraveling for work and is
(34:29):
staying in a hotel room is ahuge trigger point for a lot of
guys to act out with pornbecause they feel like it's a
different environment.
I can get away with it,Nobody's going to know and so
just being really mindful aboutthe environments you put
yourself in.
Courtney Andersen (34:45):
Do you work with a lot of men who feel like
they have double lives with theporn addiction?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (34:50):
Oh yeah, and that's one of the big things is
because, again, it's this veryshameful thing that they feel
that they need to hide fromtheir partner, from their
coworkers, their friends.
This imposter syndrome, thisliving a double life, is very
common for people with porn andsex addiction.
Because it feels like they'reone person to the whole world,
(35:10):
they're a successful man who,you know, has a career and is a
father and whatever it is, buton the inside they feel like
they have this dark secret thatif people knew what they were
watching, if people knew howperverted they were, they would
be horrified.
So that double life, it reallyis present there.
(35:31):
It really is present there.
Courtney Andersen (35:33):
Is there any advice that you would give to a
partner, a spouse of somebodywho maybe they found out about a
porn addiction or they have one.
What would that look like for aspouse or a partner to support
that person?
Because I think the originalreaction is that what am I not
(35:56):
providing you?
Why do you need to go in thedepths of the black hole on the
internet and watch this rageporn, whatever it might be, I
think, especially with women, Ithink that's their first
reaction.
I am not.
Why am I not enough for you?
So what is that advice?
What's that look like forsomebody?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (36:16):
Yeah, well, first I would just kind of give
some words to that experience.
If a woman finds her partnerhas been watching stuff and has
this feeling of am I not goodenough?
It's rarely about you.
Almost always this addictionfor the guy started when he was
(36:37):
seven or eight or nine years old, long before he ever met you,
let alone developed a romanticconnection with you.
This is not about you, it's noteven about your sex life.
It's about that guy and hiscoping mechanisms and that's his
way of numbing out and kind ofavoiding things and so just to
(36:58):
kind of recognize, even thoughit's going to feel like it's
about you oh, am I not goodenough?
Why does he need other women?
It's not likely about you.
It's not to say that it's notabout you at all.
I mean, there might be problemsin the relationship and one of
his ways of coping with theproblems in the relationship is
to go to porn.
In terms of what to do, as bestyou can, having a safe, open,
(37:22):
honest conversation, of justgetting curious and saying, hey,
is this something?
Do you watch porn?
How often?
Not, as best you can, not froman attacking or judgmental
perspective, but if you can dropinto an understanding.
Okay, I understand this mighthave started when you were young
and how do you feel about it,and that can be really helpful.
(37:43):
It really depends on eachpartner, though, because some
women will have the stance thatif a man is watching porn, it's
the same thing as cheating.
Yeah, and it really feels likethat on a visceral level to them
.
Yeah, and it really feels likethat on a visceral level to them
.
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (38:05):
And other women will have the stance that,
okay, he watches porn, butthat's okay as long as he
doesn't lie to me about it.
Is there support groups forpartners porn addicts?
What is that called?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (38:13):
So one of the common terms.
There's something calledbetrayal trauma.
Oh, okay terms.
There's something calledbetrayal trauma.
Betrayal trauma is when, forexample, let's say you're a
woman and you have a malepartner and you find out that
he's been hiding this pornaddiction secret from you for
years and the moment you findout might be this experience of
(38:35):
betrayal where you lose trust inthe person.
You realize that they're notwho they say they are, and that
can vary to the extent of howsevere his addiction might be.
If he's been sleeping withescorts and all kinds of it's
escalated into affairs, or ifhe's spending money on OnlyFans,
obviously there would be somebetrayal there.
(38:56):
But even for women who justfind out their partner has a
hidden porn addiction where it'sjust watching porn, that can
also cause this betrayal traumaand that trauma can manifest in
the same way that like real PTSDfrom things like sexual assault
can manifest.
It can be a real physiologicaltrauma response.
So there are support groups forwomen who are experiencing
(39:19):
betrayal trauma, but that's aspecific subset of people who
have that kind of betrayal.
There are women who don'tnecessarily have that experience
of betrayal, but it's more man.
I want to support my partner ingetting through this.
How can I do that?
Courtney Andersen (39:36):
Yeah, because I mean, I'm just now
thinking about all and this iswhere this goes even into more
layers of even to going back tosocial media and then sliding
into women and men's DMs, andthen that that builds a slippery
slope.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (39:55):
Yeah, and that's the thing.
Slippery slope is a great termfor it.
I tell my guys all the time isreally be careful with slippery
slopes.
So like on Instagram thirsttraps.
It's a spectrum of basicallythat's just the gateway for
OnlyFans content producers toget people into their OnlyFans
as they create these Instagramthirst trap channels, these
(40:20):
Instagram thirst trap channelswhere a guy thinks, oh, this
isn't porn, this is just areally hot girl who you know is
posting her bikini photos and oh, there's nothing wrong with
that, and can kind of go downthe rabbit hole where she says,
hey, check out my I have morephotos if you go to my OnlyFans
site.
And that can be a slipperyslope and it doesn't even have
to be a thirst trap.
Instagram and social media, thealgorithms they prioritize
(40:43):
sending these things that theyknow will hook people's
attention and they know that sexhooks people's attention.
Courtney Andersen (40:52):
Yeah, I mean again layers, but yeah, some of
the stuff too, on Instagram andTikTok.
I'm like how is this allowed?
Where I'm just like I can't,this isn't censored.
But then again there's peoplewho love that.
These people have millions offollowers, but yeah.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (41:09):
Well, yeah, twitter is completely uncensored
.
I mean, a lot of people justuse X or Twitter as their source
of porn because it's afree-for-all.
Courtney Andersen (41:20):
It is the Wild West.
It really is.
All of these are the Wild West,and so then it just and that's
what I'm saying it goes back tothen of the porn industry, of
then it starts getting into sextrafficking and all of that, and
it's just, it's sad.
So, yeah, it's a lot differentfrom the porn industry from like
(41:42):
the 70s.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (41:43):
Right, yeah, yeah, the Penthouse magazines or
whatever.
Courtney Andersen (41:49):
Right the 70s and 80s.
And then it took a turn.
When the internet came out andthat Pamela Anderson, tommy Lee
video that's sex tape.
I mean that kind of started awhole new thing with that going
on the internet came out andthat Pamela Anderson, tommy Lee
video that's X-Safe I mean thatkind of started a whole new
thing with that going on theinternet.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (42:05):
Yeah, yeah, I mean there were a few kind of
moments that that was.
One of them there was this twogirls, one cup thing that kind
of went viral and that kind ofstarted a trend of more shocking
things that started to spread.
Courtney Andersen (42:20):
I refuse to watch that.
Two girls, one cup.
I'm like no, thank you.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (42:24):
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (42:24):
But I remember that I haven't thought
about that, but you just broughtthat up In how many years?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (42:30):
30 years or 20 , 25 years?
Yes, yeah.
Courtney Andersen (42:34):
Well, thank you so much for this
conversation and for sharingyour story.
Where can people find you ifthey want to learn more about
you and what you do, andeducating on porn addiction and
recovery?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (42:48):
Yeah, I would say that the two best places
would be either my podcast Ifyou search Unhooked, it should
be the first one to pop up, soUnhooked Breaking Porn Addiction
Podcast or the YouTube channel,which I'm starting to post more
on there as well.
If you're interested more aboutthe programs that I run, you
can just check out my website,jeremylipkowitzcom.
But the podcast and YouTubechannel are, I would say, the
(43:10):
best places to go for freecontent.
Courtney Andersen (43:14):
Okay, perfect.
Well, I will list everything inthe show notes below and thank
you again for being here today.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (43:26):
Happy to be here.
Hey, welcome back to the Sober Vibes podcast
.
I'm your host and sober coach,courtney Anderson.
You are listening to episode232.
I'm also your guide to living akick-ass life without alcohol.
Today we got a great guest on.
I love talking with him.
I was on his podcast a fewyears ago and I just enjoyed our
conversation so much and I knowyou're going to enjoy this
(00:52):
conversation too.
So the topic's a little bitdifferent, but my guest today is
Jeremy Lipkowitz, and he is ameditation teacher, a men's
coach and a digital habitsexpert who works with
entrepreneurs, executives andleaders.
He is also the founder of theUnhooked Academy and the host of
(01:12):
the Unhooked podcast, where hehelps men break free of
destructive habits and build alife of purpose, discipline and
fulfillment.
So Jeremy talks today.
We talk about porn addictionand we talk about overcoming
shame in an addiction that isreally taboo, because porn
(01:32):
addiction is that.
For me, this was very, veryhelpful.
I had a guest on a couple ofyears back where we talked about
porn addiction, so this is justthe second time of talking
about this, but I think it'sgreat to have the awareness
especially mothers and fathersright, because how easily
(01:53):
accessible porn is.
Pornography is on thesecellular devices.
Okay, so I learned a lot.
So I learned a lot and Jeremyhas a great story of overcoming
this and his perspective onpornography and all that is good
(02:14):
.
He drops a couple ways on howyou can overcome that addiction.
So make sure you connect withhim and go follow him over on
Instagram or go listen to hispodcast and, honestly, jeremy's
got one of those voices youcould just listen to forever.
It's very soothing.
It's very soothing, so I'm surehe's a great meditation teacher
with this voice of his.
(02:35):
All right, I hope you enjoyedthis episode.
If you haven't yet, please rate, review and subscribe slash.
Follow the show wherever youget your podcast, because those
help, and feel free to reach outto me on Instagram, at Sober
Vibes, and let me know how thisepisode helped you today.
As always, keep on trucking andstay safe out there.
(02:55):
Hey Jeremy, welcome to theSober Vibes podcast.
I'm very excited to have you ontoday.
The last time we spoke wasactually a couple of years ago,
when I was on your podcast.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (03:07):
Indeed and I'm happy to be on yours, happy to
be here.
Courtney Andersen (03:11):
And since we spoke last, you moved to
Thailand, so enjoying it thereagain?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (03:15):
Yes, Totally Good food, good weather, amazing
people.
Courtney Andersen (03:21):
Yeah what I mean how.
What is the weather like there?
People, yeah what I mean how.
What is the weather like there?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (03:25):
It's hot.
So I mean, if if you can'thandle hot weather, it's
probably not good.
If you don't like going out inshorts and and and a t-shirt and
maybe some flip-flops, you canwear some more layers from time
to time, but usually it's, it'spretty hot out.
Courtney Andersen (03:42):
When you say hot, are we talking hot plus
muggy, or is it muggy like humidthere?
Okay, I just needed to knowthat I'm fine with that Not
always.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (03:52):
We're not right next to the equator.
It's way worse in some otherplaces that are closer to the
equator, and in Bangkok I'm.
In Bangkok it can have somenice days of cool weather and
yeah, but it's blue skies a lotof the time.
Sometimes it rains, but overalllife here is just it's more the
people.
I'd say the weather isn't thereason you come here.
The culture here is just sofriendly and so safe.
(04:15):
It's the safest country I'veever been to.
I feel so safe walking aroundand people are just kind.
You don't have to worry aboutgetting mugged or anything
stolen.
You can leave your laptop in acafe and go out for lunch and
come back an hour later and yourlaptop's still there.
Courtney Andersen (04:33):
I mean, how does that happen?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (04:36):
It's just the culture here.
That crime just doesn't happen.
I don't know if it's becauseit's like a Buddhist culture or
there's just a lot of safety,like those kinds of crimes.
Don't know if it's because it'slike a Buddhist culture or
there's just a lot of safety,like those kind of crimes don't
really happen.
Courtney Andersen (04:47):
Well, I like it.
My sister and I want to visitthere one day.
My sister-in-law lives inSweden and she was telling me
how you can just leave thebabies in the stroller before
going into the store.
And people just do that.
I'm like, say what?
I don't think I could justleave the little dictator
sleeping in a stroller and justcasually shop around.
But when it's the culture, andthat's all you know.
(05:09):
That's all you know.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (05:10):
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (05:11):
So, jeremy, why don't you share your story
today?
Because I've only ever talkedabout this topic once before,
years ago, about porn addiction,so I would love for you to
share that and really how itstarted and then in your
recovery process of it.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (05:30):
Yeah, so for the past I guess seven years or
so I've really been focused onworking with men with porn
addiction and helping themrecover and break free and break
free at the root source,because this addiction goes deep
and it's not just about pornbut all the ways we get addicted
.
So I've been doing that for thelast seven years and it really
stems from my own history withporn addiction which started.
(05:53):
I started looking atpornographic content when I was
seven, eight years old.
First, I think the very firstthing I remember was certain
like comic book characters thatwere really attracted to me and
kind of dressed in certain ways,but then it escalated into
looking at the lingerie catalogsthat would come in the mail.
(06:13):
Eventually we got the internetand you could start downloading
photos or videos and it justkept progressing.
By the time I got to universitythere was high-speed internet,
there were these tube sites thatyou could look and see
thousands upon thousands ofdifferent videos on a given
(06:33):
night, and so it progressed tothe place where I was watching
porn every night for one to twohours just on a daily, regular
basis, and I thought it wasnormal.
It's something I'd been doingsince I was seven, eight years
old and it's somewhat normalizedin our society.
People talk about it as if it'snormal and so I never really
(06:54):
noticed any issue, didn'trealize I had a problem and I
couldn't see the consequences.
This is one of the other thingswe can talk about, but a lot of
the consequences of pornaddiction are very subtle and
they're harder to spot unlessyou really know what to pay
attention for, as opposed tosome other types of addictions
where the consequences are veryobvious.
If you're drinking heavily, youwake up with a hangover and you
(07:17):
feel it.
If you're abusing other kindsof drugs, you know the
consequences.
But with porn addiction, a lotof these consequences are in the
ways that we relate to ourromantic partners, our views on
intimacy, our relationship withourself, maybe self-judgment or
self-criticism, body dysmorphiaand then also the ways it just
(07:39):
can really mess with yourability to focus and concentrate
and your dopamine systems, messwith your ability to focus and
concentrate and your dopaminesystems.
So I was experiencing this whenI was a young man and had kind
of a wake-up call where Irealized, hey, this is an issue
for me, this is causing a lot ofthe problems in my life that I
didn't know were related to this, but now I see the connection
(08:01):
and that's what cost me to walkdown this path of recovery and
break free.
Courtney Andersen (08:06):
Yeah, how old are you?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (08:09):
38.
Courtney Andersen (08:10):
Okay, so yes , and I just I'm 42.
So we're in the same generationhere, so that I'm just doing
the timeline of, because, again,nowadays you don't get catalogs
in the mail.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (08:22):
I mean like those catalogs don't, I don't
know these poor kids are livingin such a poor life.
A it was the most amazing thingto get the Victoria's Secret
catalog in the mail.
It was for a young boy, it wasgreat.
Courtney Andersen (08:33):
Right.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (08:33):
These kids now are spoiled.
Courtney Andersen (08:35):
Right.
I mean, the only catalog thatcomes to our house is the Costco
, so okay, so the catalogsbecause I'm just doing for the
listeners of the evolution, thenof the internet.
Plus, I want this conversationas well, because having a
three-and-a-half-year-old andraising a boy who will be a man
(08:58):
it is nowadays, it's going to bedifferent raising boys, right,
and so this is the kind of stuffthat I want to learn, as a mom,
of really what to watch out for.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (09:18):
So when, would you say at what age, did it
progress where you were watchingporn one to two hours a day?
I definitely remember when Iwas in college.
As soon as I had that freedomwhen I was a freshman in college
and lived in a dorm room it wasme and another freshman I
remember that's where it wasn'tnecessarily every night because
I still had to I was in a dormroom sharing sharing a room with
(09:39):
with another guy.
I actually remember one time hewalked in on me and it was the
most embarrassing thing, butstill to this day it kind of
embarrasses me.
But I guess it was the nextyear when I moved out and had my
own room and high speedinternet.
The problem is kids are gettingthese devices younger and
younger and every kid has asmartphone and access to the
(10:00):
internet and it's just so mucheasier to access.
It's one of the things thatmakes porn addiction so highly
addictive.
We call it the three A's ofporn addiction it's affordable,
it's accessible and it'sanonymous.
So the more of these threethings that you have for any
addiction, the more addictiveit's going to be.
And porn is incrediblyaffordable because it's free.
(10:21):
It's incredibly accessiblebecause it's literally in
everyone's pockets and you canaccess it in seconds.
And it's also anonymous you cando it without anyone knowing,
and so because of these things,it really can seep in and young
kids are going to get it worsenow because they have it even
(10:41):
more accessible and it's moreaddictive because there's more
extreme content out there.
Courtney Andersen (10:46):
Yeah, so for you.
How did that start with youraddiction?
How did that start impactingyour life?
What were these signs that areharder to spot with somebody
with a porn addiction?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (11:01):
Yeah, one of the signs I started seeing was
how porn was making me haveunrealistic expectations about
my romantic partners.
I started to notice that I wascomparing all my real life
partners to porn and expectingbecause if you watch porn every
(11:22):
day for two hours a day, on asubconscious level you're just
expecting oh, this is what womenshould look like.
They should all be porn starsand young and perfect and no
blemishes.
And so you'd start to developjust these unrealistic
expectations.
The other thing that I startedto notice was the ways that it
was impacting my craving fornovelty in my romantic
(11:45):
relationships.
Because when you log onto aporn site, especially these high
speed tube sites and this isthe new evolution of porn makes
it so much more damaging.
When you have these tube siteswhere you're scrolling through
hundreds of videos, hundreds ofthumbnails, trying to find which
one to watch, every time yousee a new face or a new video,
(12:07):
your brain gets a littledopamine hit, and every time you
search for a new term or clicka button or click a link, again
that dopamine hit happens.
And so what's happening is youare hardwiring your brain to
expect its dopamine, to expectthe reward, the feeling good,
from novelty.
Now what this does in terms ofa relationship is you start
(12:30):
dating someone, you startgetting intimate with them, but
then you're kind of, you startto get bored and you think, well
, I need something new, I needsomething novel, I need
something exciting.
So this is one of the things Inoticed was that I was
constantly moving fromrelationship to relationship,
and it wasn't because anythingwas wrong with the people I was
dating.
It was because my brain hadgotten hooked on the novelty,
(12:53):
thinking, oh, there must besomeone slightly better.
Because that's what you do whenyou're searching through these
tube sites You're looking for aslightly better video, a
slightly new genre.
So that was another thing, thefinal kind of piece that the
final straw that broke thecamel's back was.
I remember walking down thestreet one day.
(13:15):
I was 23, 24 years old I forgetexactly how old, but I remember
it was a beautiful day, my lifewas good.
I had good grades in school, Iwas captain of a sports team, I
was well-liked by people.
So my life was good.
But I remember walking down thestreet and seeing these two
young women walking in front ofme and I remember being so
(13:38):
consumed by lust in that moment.
I was staring at their bodiesand just consumed with this
feeling of craving and sexualdesire and lust, and in that
moment it felt like this bigblack hole opened up inside of
me.
It was this big void, thisemptiness, and what I realized
is that the experience of lustitself is a state of suffering
(14:01):
and that every time I waslogging onto a porn site and
watching porn, I was literallyhardwiring the neural pathways
of lust.
I was hardwiring in the neuralpathways of suffering because I
was focused on trying to getwhat I couldn't, what I didn't
have, kind of.
(14:26):
The final wake-up straw wasrealizing that this lust, this
experience of wanting somethingI don't have, that it was
consuming my life and in largepart it was because of
habitually logging onto theseporn sites.
The thing that helped merealize this was understanding
neuroplasticity.
There was this quote that Iread neurons that fire together,
wire together, and it made merealize that I was hardwiring in
those habitual patterns in mymind.
Courtney Andersen (14:48):
Yes, were you using, though at all?
Were you using porn when youwould watch it one to two hours
a day?
Was that you numbing out?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (15:00):
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (15:00):
You know, like with alcohol, like it's a
lot, like okay, this is numbingwhen we drank, it's to numb out.
So that's I wondered what theporn addiction does?
It become like that where itjust becomes so habitual again
with that dopamine hit thatyou're getting and then it's
just eventually numbing out.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (15:18):
Exactly, it's entirely.
It's a numbing out thing.
So many people who haven'texperienced porn addiction or
aren't familiar with it theythink, oh, people who are
addicted to porn are like sexualdebians or they have really
high sex drives or they'reperverts.
But for most men who strugglewith porn addiction, porn isn't
(15:38):
about being horny, it's notabout them kind of having a high
sex drive.
It's a coping mechanism.
It's a way to numb out, toself-medicate when they're
feeling some emotionaldiscomfort, loneliness, sadness,
anger, and so it's entirelykind of a coping mechanism and
(15:59):
it was.
For me it was a, it had to be,I mean, a nightly thing on the
dot, it was just a routine as away to numb out and self-soothe.
Courtney Andersen (16:10):
But did it start like that?
So it started.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (16:14):
Yeah, this is a really good thing to bring in,
because one thing that I reallyhope anyone listening to this
takes away is sexuality is abeautiful part of being human.
It's one of the most wonderfulparts of being human is our
sexuality, and there'sabsolutely nothing wrong with
sexuality, and it's natural foryoung men in particular also
(16:35):
young women, but for us to becurious about sex and to curious
about self-pleasure, and whenyou see someone or something
that makes you feel good inthose parts of your body, it's
oh, I feel this tinglingsensation, it feels good, what
is this?
And so, of course, it's anatural exploration.
So it didn't start out as, oh,I need to numb.
(16:57):
It started out as a wow, thisfeels really good, and I can do
this on command, like I know howto get this feeling.
And I can do this on commandLike I know how to get this
feeling Right.
And when I want to feel good,oh, I can go get that hit by
grabbing one of these catalogsor dialing up on AOL.
Now it's just much moreaccessible which again is it's
(17:20):
like the way porn used to be.
It wasn't that damaging.
Courtney Andersen (17:23):
No.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (17:24):
The way it is now, it's a whole different
beast.
Courtney Andersen (17:28):
Yeah, especially too.
I mean you look at the biggerpicture too, with sex
trafficking and a lot of thewomen who get into that.
It's because of trafficking, soit becomes a bit of a.
There's many layers to that.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (17:43):
Oh yeah, non-consensual videos, rape porn
, I mean there's so manyhorrible things on there, not to
mention now AI porn is a wholething and it's actually it's
really messed up because it cango very dark and very extreme
and because it's AI, it's notreal, for example, like child
(18:04):
porn.
Ai.
It's not real, for example,like child porn.
Ai can make child porn and theauthorities, the cops, are
having a hard time kind oftracking this and understanding
what's real, what's AI, and sothey're having a hard time
tracking the real perpetratorsof that kind of material because
there's so much of an influxfrom this AI stuff.
So there's so many kind ofthings with the new generation
(18:27):
of technology AI girlfriends andVR headsets and your boys are
in for a wild ride ahead of them.
Courtney Andersen (18:34):
Yeah, I just want yes.
And that's where.
And again, it's, it's, oh, it'swith raising young men.
Nowadays, there's just a lot ofeducation.
I'm going to have to help.
Same thing with my husband.
I've told him that I was like,so when we have the sex
conversation, we have to keepthis open and in the phone.
My goal is not to get him aphone until he's like 60.
(18:59):
So and I don't even want.
Yeah, it's funny because my bestfriend has a son and he's, I
think he's 11.
And he keeps being like Mom,what if something happens to me?
She's like you, let me figurethat out, you're not getting a
phone.
And she's like Courtney.
This is harder and harder to doas these kids get older,
because all of their friendshave phones.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (19:18):
And Instagram and Snapchat, and it's their
social hierarchy.
Courtney Andersen (19:23):
Right, exactly so it's just.
It's going to be veryinteresting as he gets older and
older.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (19:29):
But just on that note, just for anyone
listening who kind of isinterested in this, and for you
as well, there's a phenomenalbook called the Anxious
Generation by Jonathan Haidt.
Courtney Andersen (19:38):
I will link that.
I'm actually it's in my Amazoncart, so that one.
But I will link that book inthe show notes below.
Hey, good people of the world,it's Courtney.
And if you're in your firstyear or your fifth year of
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Forward slash sober-vibes tosign up and receive 50% off your
device today.
You can also check the link inthe show notes below.
So for you then, what was yourrecovery process?
(21:27):
How did this look for you whenyou probably came to your own
quote, unquote rock bottom whereyou're like I can't function
like this anymore?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (21:35):
Yeah, I mean, that was exactly it.
It was a moment of waking up tomy reality and saying I can't
keep living like this.
So I guess that's actuallyimportant to dive into a little
bit is when I had thatrealization of all these ways
porn was impacting me.
I had this realization of if Ikeep living like this and I saw
where it was leading me.
(21:55):
Like this is the problem withany one act of watching porn
it's not going to ruin your life.
But when it becomes who you are, that's where it can lead to
some dark places.
And what I saw was I washeading down a dark pathway of
being just kind of consumed bylust, totally driven by seeking
out indulging in pleasure, and Irealized I can't keep living
(22:19):
like this.
I need to figure out some otherway of living.
So that got me interested injust the topic of happiness.
What is happiness?
What does it mean?
To be content, to be at peace?
And I started getting into thesebooks on Buddhist philosophy
and neuroplasticity andmindfulness and that ended up
being really my pathway ofrecovery was through meditation
(22:42):
and mindfulness andself-compassion and really
learning how to train my mind,how to be aware of my habit
patterns and intentionallychoose better, to make better
choices, more skillful choices.
So a lot of meditation trainingended up.
Traveling to india startedgoing on these silent meditation
(23:02):
retreats.
These were like 10-day retreats, where you're not talking or
reading or writing or making eyecontact with the other
participants.
You're really just being withyourself and observing your
experience for 10 days, andthose types of retreats formed a
lot of the foundation of myrecovery.
(23:22):
It's not what I wouldnecessarily recommend for people
who are starting out today.
I think a component ofmindfulness and self-awareness
is, which is why I teach it inmy program.
But more importantly, what Iwish I had done earlier on is to
get connected to a community,to go to a men's group to learn
how to be vulnerable, to learnhow to get support, and not try
(23:44):
to do it on my own, becausethat's the big mistake a lot of
people make is trying to do iton their own.
Courtney Andersen (23:51):
Yeah, a lot Same thing in the space with
quitting drinking alcohol.
When you try to do it alone,it's just there's a lot of shame
.
And so how?
There's just a lot of shamethat you don't, you can't
sharing with somebody who getsit in that same space, by
starting to talk about it andopening up and being around
people who get it.
(24:11):
That is the power of healingshame For you.
How would you overcome shame inthis taboo addiction?
Because it is Because of goingback where it's like you were
looked upon as a pervert if youhave a porn addiction, or you
could be looked at becausepeople like to throw the word a
(24:33):
narcissist around, right, sothen you're categorized as this
person that you're absolutelynot.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (24:40):
Yeah, for whatever reason porn and sex
addiction and just porn andsexuality in general has so much
shame attached to it.
For some reason, as a humanspecies, we're just very much
ashamed of our genitals, of sex,of talking about masturbation,
talking about what we do withintimacy, and because of that,
(25:03):
when someone is struggling withporn addiction or sex addiction,
it feels like a very shamefulthing.
You know so many people whoexperience this just feel gross,
they feel broken, they feelunlovable, and so letting go of
that shame really is a keycomponent, and one of the best
(25:24):
ways to do it is to realizeyou're not alone.
Realize because that's whatshame tells us this lie that
says you are the only personwho's messed up in this way.
Everyone else is normal.
You're the weird one, you'rethe strange one, you're the
defective one.
That's what shame tells us.
So to combat that, you have tostart to recognize oh, I'm not
(25:47):
the only one, I'm not alone inthis.
There are other people andthere's reasons why I am this
way, like it makes sense, andit's not my fault.
I love this quote it's not yourfault, but it is your
responsibility.
It's like to recognize it's notyour fault, it is part of
society's fault, the billiondollar porn industry's fault,
(26:09):
all kinds of different things.
It's not.
You didn't want this to happenand it is your responsibility to
do something about it.
Courtney Andersen (26:18):
Yeah, yeah.
What helped you with overcomingyour shame of it.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (26:24):
It took me a long time.
It took me six years even afterI had I had stopped watching
porn.
It took me another six yearsbefore I could talk about it
with anyone.
And it was kind of just amoment of serendipity where I
had.
I was having a conversationwith another friend of mine.
We were in grad school together.
(26:44):
He was another graduate student.
We were both interested inmeditation, we were both in the
Buddhist meditation communityand we were just having coffee
one day and talking, I think,about what had gotten us into
meditation and I told him thatpart of what got me into
meditation was recognizing I hada porn addiction.
And I remember that moment sodistinctly because I remember it
(27:08):
was a huge weight coming off myshoulders to be able to talk
about it and to have the personI was telling just kind of nod
in agreement as if theyunderstood.
Courtney Andersen (27:17):
Yeah Right, do you look at the porn industry
now like looking back?
Do you look at it with anger orcause?
At a point in my recovery withsobriety I looked at it a couple
of years in cause.
It's like a grieving processwith the drinking, because then
it's like yourself in that too.
But I did look back and wasangry at the alcohol industry.
(27:40):
Let's sure it's lawyers fiveo'clock somewhere, right.
And then nowadays too, evenwith especially in the States
currently there's a lot ofbanning artificial food dyes and
taking down big food, which Ithink is great.
There was a big thing about bigpharma, but there's really
nothing about big alcohol, right.
(28:01):
So it still makes me angry withthat.
But how do you now view thatthe porn industry?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (28:09):
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's so funny, as you mentioned, with the alcohol industry,
like it gets this big green hallpass where everyone else gets
the scrutiny.
But for some, the alcoholindustry it's just, it's the
drug that we've normalized andsaid well, it's just part of our
society and we celebrate theseaddictions in these ways the
(28:31):
t-shirts and the memes andeverything.
In these ways the t-shirts andthe memes and everything.
And porn is similar in someregards because of how
sexualized our media is.
I mean, sexualized media iseverywhere Instagram, tiktok,
movies.
I don't have a lot of angertowards it.
It's not really my nature.
Anyways, I'm not a very angryperson.
(28:52):
It makes me sad that there isso much harm being caused by it
and so many people unaware ofthe harms of it, and so I would
say that's more my response,because I wouldn't know who to
get angry at.
I mean, I could get angry atthe CEOs of Porn Hub, but and
rightfully so, I think therehave been some reporting to show
(29:14):
that those organizations arepretty awful in terms of what
they allow.
But yeah, people in my industry,in my field, who are porn is
(29:39):
evil and porn is a sin, andthat's not my philosophy.
I'm sex positive.
I'm kink positive.
If you have two consentingadults who know how to
communicate and you want to dosomething interesting, go for it
, and I have nothing against theidea, in principle, of watching
people have sex on on a screen,on a piece of paper.
It's the addiction that Ireally have the issue with, and
(30:01):
modern, high-speed internet pornjust is such a highly addictive
substance, particularly whenyou combine it with the
anonymity, the high degree ofaccessibility and variability.
It's just such.
And then you charge that intoour innate primal sexual drive
(30:22):
of young 12-year-old boys and12-year-old girls.
It's a recipe for addiction.
Courtney Andersen (30:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The person I interviewed acouple of years back that he
went that bar, he went to thatwhere it was like this is evil,
because again, I will never saygoing.
But just compare it with thiswith alcohol, I'm never.
There are some people who candrink and they don't have an
issue, right, it's just okay.
And same thing there are peoplewho watch porn that it doesn't
(30:50):
become an issue to.
But yes, so I'm glad that yousaid that.
When someone starts working ontheir porn addiction, what does
that look like?
Is that where they have?
Because you have to start inany addiction, you really have
to start rewiring your brain andworking more on healing getting
(31:12):
a dopamine hit elsewhere.
So what does that?
Does that even look like, thatfirst month of not watching porn
, where you're maybe haveincreased anxiety, maybe you're
a little depressed, tired?
I'm just trying to go through,especially with the listeners
understanding that, like howthis would look the withdrawal
(31:34):
of it.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (31:35):
Yeah, I mean, that's it.
There is a withdrawal period.
When you're used to getting ahigh dose of dopamine on a
regular basis For some guys it'smultiple times a day, it can be
multiple hours.
So when you're used to gettingthis high amount of dopamine
because it really does pressvery effectively on the dopamine
(31:56):
button when you're used to thatand then you cut it off, you do
go through withdrawal and it isvery challenging because
everything feels dull and gray.
You lose your energy andmotivation.
It's very hard to feel good, butif you can get through those
few weeks into that first month,you start to notice things
(32:17):
shifting and you get your energyback.
You feel more excited andmotivated for the day ahead and
things start to feel more.
You feel more present for yourlife.
Little, simple joys actuallystart to feel good again, like
just drinking a cup of tea orgoing for a walk and feeling the
(32:38):
sun, laughing with a friend.
These simple joys actuallybecome a part of your life again
.
But there is a withdrawalperiod and it's challenging,
especially with porn, becauseanalogy I like to give if you
were a cocaine addict and youwere trying to recover from
cocaine but you were forced tohave a little sachet of cocaine
(32:59):
in your pocket at all times andtake it with it with you
wherever you go.
That's what it's like to be aporn addict in recovery, because
you have access to it on yourphone everywhere you go.
It's literally right there, andso it can be very challenging
in those moments to break away,because it's just so accessible.
Courtney Andersen (33:21):
What do you recommend for somebody to break
away in that moment of time?
Because it is, it's in yourpocket.
It's in your pocket.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (33:26):
Yeah, so using things like web blockers can be
helpful.
There's a caveat there, whichis that they're helpful.
They give you some breathingroom.
They put a little more frictionin between you and acting out.
So oftentimes people are smartenough, they know okay what are
the loopholes, how can I getaround this, but at least it
(33:47):
puts some friction between youand acting out, so it makes it a
little bit less accessible.
So that's a good step.
But the caveat there is that ifyou rely entirely on blockers,
that's not going to work longterm.
The blockers are there to giveyou the breathing room to then
do the inner work of building upyour willpower, your restraint,
(34:08):
connecting with your values andwhat a life of integrity looks
like, not putting yourself inbad situations.
So this is another big thing.
It's understanding the impactof your environment and
understanding what are yourdanger zones.
So for a lot of guys, one ofthe most common things is a huge
danger zone is when a guy istraveling for work and is
(34:29):
staying in a hotel room is ahuge trigger point for a lot of
guys to act out with pornbecause they feel like it's a
different environment.
I can get away with it,Nobody's going to know and so
just being really mindful aboutthe environments you put
yourself in.
Courtney Andersen (34:45):
Do you work with a lot of men who feel like
they have double lives with theporn addiction?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (34:50):
Oh yeah, and that's one of the big things is
because, again, it's this veryshameful thing that they feel
that they need to hide fromtheir partner, from their
coworkers, their friends.
This imposter syndrome, thisliving a double life, is very
common for people with porn andsex addiction.
Because it feels like they'reone person to the whole world,
(35:10):
they're a successful man who,you know, has a career and is a
father and whatever it is, buton the inside they feel like
they have this dark secret thatif people knew what they were
watching, if people knew howperverted they were, they would
be horrified.
So that double life, it reallyis present there.
(35:31):
It really is present there.
Courtney Andersen (35:33):
Is there any advice that you would give to a
partner, a spouse of somebodywho maybe they found out about a
porn addiction or they have one.
What would that look like for aspouse or a partner to support
that person?
Because I think the originalreaction is that what am I not
(35:56):
providing you?
Why do you need to go in thedepths of the black hole on the
internet and watch this rageporn, whatever it might be, I
think, especially with women, Ithink that's their first
reaction.
I am not.
Why am I not enough for you?
So what is that advice?
What's that look like forsomebody?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (36:16):
Yeah, well, first I would just kind of give
some words to that experience.
If a woman finds her partnerhas been watching stuff and has
this feeling of am I not goodenough?
It's rarely about you.
Almost always this addictionfor the guy started when he was
(36:37):
seven or eight or nine years old, long before he ever met you,
let alone developed a romanticconnection with you.
This is not about you, it's noteven about your sex life.
It's about that guy and hiscoping mechanisms and that's his
way of numbing out and kind ofavoiding things and so just to
(36:58):
kind of recognize, even thoughit's going to feel like it's
about you oh, am I not goodenough?
Why does he need other women?
It's not likely about you.
It's not to say that it's notabout you at all.
I mean, there might be problemsin the relationship and one of
his ways of coping with theproblems in the relationship is
to go to porn.
In terms of what to do, as bestyou can, having a safe, open,
(37:22):
honest conversation, of justgetting curious and saying, hey,
is this something?
Do you watch porn?
How often?
Not, as best you can, not froman attacking or judgmental
perspective, but if you can dropinto an understanding.
Okay, I understand this mighthave started when you were young
and how do you feel about it,and that can be really helpful.
(37:43):
It really depends on eachpartner, though, because some
women will have the stance thatif a man is watching porn, it's
the same thing as cheating.
Yeah, and it really feels likethat on a visceral level to them
.
Yeah, and it really feels likethat on a visceral level to them
.
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (38:05):
And other women will have the stance that,
okay, he watches porn, butthat's okay as long as he
doesn't lie to me about it.
Is there support groups forpartners porn addicts?
What is that called?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (38:13):
So one of the common terms.
There's something calledbetrayal trauma.
Oh, okay terms.
There's something calledbetrayal trauma.
Betrayal trauma is when, forexample, let's say you're a
woman and you have a malepartner and you find out that
he's been hiding this pornaddiction secret from you for
years and the moment you findout might be this experience of
(38:35):
betrayal where you lose trust inthe person.
You realize that they're notwho they say they are, and that
can vary to the extent of howsevere his addiction might be.
If he's been sleeping withescorts and all kinds of it's
escalated into affairs, or ifhe's spending money on OnlyFans,
obviously there would be somebetrayal there.
(38:56):
But even for women who justfind out their partner has a
hidden porn addiction where it'sjust watching porn, that can
also cause this betrayal traumaand that trauma can manifest in
the same way that like real PTSDfrom things like sexual assault
can manifest.
It can be a real physiologicaltrauma response.
So there are support groups forwomen who are experiencing
(39:19):
betrayal trauma, but that's aspecific subset of people who
have that kind of betrayal.
There are women who don'tnecessarily have that experience
of betrayal, but it's more man.
I want to support my partner ingetting through this.
How can I do that?
Courtney Andersen (39:36):
Yeah, because I mean, I'm just now
thinking about all and this iswhere this goes even into more
layers of even to going back tosocial media and then sliding
into women and men's DMs, andthen that that builds a slippery
slope.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (39:55):
Yeah, and that's the thing.
Slippery slope is a great termfor it.
I tell my guys all the time isreally be careful with slippery
slopes.
So like on Instagram thirsttraps.
It's a spectrum of basicallythat's just the gateway for
OnlyFans content producers toget people into their OnlyFans
as they create these Instagramthirst trap channels, these
(40:20):
Instagram thirst trap channelswhere a guy thinks, oh, this
isn't porn, this is just areally hot girl who you know is
posting her bikini photos and oh, there's nothing wrong with
that, and can kind of go downthe rabbit hole where she says,
hey, check out my I have morephotos if you go to my OnlyFans
site.
And that can be a slipperyslope and it doesn't even have
to be a thirst trap.
Instagram and social media, thealgorithms they prioritize
(40:43):
sending these things that theyknow will hook people's
attention and they know that sexhooks people's attention.
Courtney Andersen (40:52):
Yeah, I mean again layers, but yeah, some of
the stuff too, on Instagram andTikTok.
I'm like how is this allowed?
Where I'm just like I can't,this isn't censored.
But then again there's peoplewho love that.
These people have millions offollowers, but yeah.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (41:09):
Well, yeah, twitter is completely uncensored
.
I mean, a lot of people justuse X or Twitter as their source
of porn because it's afree-for-all.
Courtney Andersen (41:20):
It is the Wild West.
It really is.
All of these are the Wild West,and so then it just and that's
what I'm saying it goes back tothen of the porn industry, of
then it starts getting into sextrafficking and all of that, and
it's just, it's sad.
So, yeah, it's a lot differentfrom the porn industry from like
(41:42):
the 70s.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (41:43):
Right, yeah, yeah, the Penthouse magazines or
whatever.
Courtney Andersen (41:49):
Right the 70s and 80s.
And then it took a turn.
When the internet came out andthat Pamela Anderson, tommy Lee
video that's sex tape.
I mean that kind of started awhole new thing with that going
on the internet came out andthat Pamela Anderson, tommy Lee
video that's X-Safe I mean thatkind of started a whole new
thing with that going on theinternet.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (42:05):
Yeah, yeah, I mean there were a few kind of
moments that that was.
One of them there was this twogirls, one cup thing that kind
of went viral and that kind ofstarted a trend of more shocking
things that started to spread.
Courtney Andersen (42:20):
I refuse to watch that.
Two girls, one cup.
I'm like no, thank you.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (42:24):
Yeah.
Courtney Andersen (42:24):
But I remember that I haven't thought
about that, but you just broughtthat up In how many years?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (42:30):
30 years or 20 , 25 years?
Yes, yeah.
Courtney Andersen (42:34):
Well, thank you so much for this
conversation and for sharingyour story.
Where can people find you ifthey want to learn more about
you and what you do, andeducating on porn addiction and
recovery?
Jeremy Lipkowitz (42:48):
Yeah, I would say that the two best places
would be either my podcast Ifyou search Unhooked, it should
be the first one to pop up, soUnhooked Breaking Porn Addiction
Podcast or the YouTube channel,which I'm starting to post more
on there as well.
If you're interested more aboutthe programs that I run, you
can just check out my website,jeremylipkowitzcom.
But the podcast and YouTubechannel are, I would say, the
(43:10):
best places to go for freecontent.
Courtney Andersen (43:14):
Okay, perfect.
Well, I will list everything inthe show notes below and thank
you again for being here today.
Jeremy Lipkowitz (43:26):
Happy to be here.
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