January 27, 2025 • 30 mins
Will your wishes be followed – Inspired by the HBO/MAX series The PITT, Chris Boyd, Jeff
Perry, and Russ Ball discuss the need for a comprehensive estate plan and how families can sadly
be torn apart without appropriate planning. Jeff reviews the foundational documents of an estate
plan. Chris and Russ outline the family conflict that is present in The PITT. The dialogue
continues with suggestions how family strife can be avoided with the correct documents in place
and how family communications and meetings are often advisable during the financial and estate
planning process.
For more information or to reach Chris Boyd, Russ Ball or Jeff Perry, click the following link:
https://www.wealthenhancement.com/s/advisor-teams/amr
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to something more with Chris Boyd.
Chris Boyd is a certified financial planner, practitioner,
and senior vice president, financial advisor at wealth
enhancement group.
One of the nation's largest registered investment advisors.
We call it something more because we'd like
to talk not only about those important dollar
and cents issues, but also the quality of
life issues that make the money matters matter.
(00:22):
Here he is your fulfillment facilitator, your partner
in prosperity, advising clients on Cape Cod and
across the country.
Here's your host, Jay Christopher Boyd.
Welcome to the program.
Something more with Chris Boyd.
I'm here with Jeff Perry and Russ Ball.
We are of the AMR team at wealth
(00:42):
enhancement group and glad to have you with
us today.
Our subject is a living will.
I think we're going to talk about for
the most part.
And, um, I came across an article, um,
that was, uh, from the wall street journal
called, she signed a living will her sister
didn't honor it.
And I just thought, uh, this is a
(01:03):
topic that's kind of, uh, of interest.
And it prompted me as we were thinking
about talking about it.
Um, have you guys started watching the pit?
Um, uh, HBO max, uh, television show, Noah
Wiley.
No, he's the, uh, ER guy.
(01:24):
Yeah.
He was on ER.
They actually sued him.
Uh, the, uh, state of Michael Crichton or
something for, uh, making a rip off of
ER apparently really.
Yeah.
So it's a pit, a rip off of
ER.
Kind of, um, it's like, it's a medical,
it's a medical trauma and it takes place
(01:46):
in an emergency room.
And so maybe it's a start, right?
Yeah.
But anyway, um, I I'm enjoying it.
And, um, one of the episodes that, uh,
we've seen, they, they, they only drop them
once a week.
So, um, this, one of these episodes had
a similar story to this notion where.
(02:08):
Um, I don't want to ruin it for
anybody, but so, you know, I don't know
if you're, if you haven't watched it, uh,
just spoiler alert, I guess, you know, we're
talking about an episode.
So anyway, um, the, there was a gentleman,
an older, uh, father, elderly father who came
in and, uh, had clear instructions as to
what he wanted, but the kids were the,
(02:30):
um, healthcare proxy agent and, um, they got
to choose what, what would be the case.
And so the, the drama unfolds with, you
know, the medical advice versus, you know, what
can they do?
What, what should they do?
Um, some challenging discussions, you know, about when
(02:53):
do you let go?
You know, that kind of thing.
Should we, uh, inform our listeners?
We don't know about these terms, what these
things we're talking about.
Yep.
So we're talking about a state planning documents,
right?
Yeah.
So documents you prepare as you're thinking about
end of your life and your legacy and
(03:13):
passing on, and I think most people have
heard of a will that's who gets your
stuff, right?
Basically what areas you want to get, what
part of your financial assets, your real estate,
your personal property.
That's kind of the basic thing that most
people know.
Um, some people need a trust, not going
to get into that for this purpose, but
that also can define who gets your stuff,
(03:35):
who handles your finance, your affairs, if you're
not able to, that's another document that does
some of that as well, right?
Jeff.
Yeah.
There's a, well, there's a power of attorney
also out there just in case people know
these terms, um, which would allow someone to
manage your financial affairs while you're incapacitated before
you die, a durable power of attorney, if
(03:58):
you lose your own ability to manage your
own personal financial affairs, and then there's a
couple documents having to do with your health
and decisions.
One is a healthcare proxy and highly recommended
that everyone listening, no matter what your age
is, you have a healthcare proxy.
It's a directive that you give your authority
to sounds like it's going to be part
(04:20):
of our conversation, but to at least one
person as your healthcare proxy, that person can
make the healthcare decisions if you are not
able to make those decisions as defined by
a medical professional.
So, you know, you're, you get in a
car accident.
You're not, you're unconscious.
You're in a coma.
There's choices about your medical care, decisions about
(04:42):
surgeries, whatever the situation might be.
Your healthcare proxy is authorized to make those
decisions for you.
And so they are an agent, an individual
who can discern what's the medical prognosis relative
to what they understand your preferences to be,
(05:02):
what they've deemed to be appropriate for you.
Yes, they are.
As they are an agent, they are supposed
to be standing in your shoes, making the
decision for you.
Um, we'll get into it probably in the
narrative, but if you appoint to hopefully one
is in charge and one is the successor,
(05:23):
meaning Sally's in charge, Joey makes the decision.
If Sally's not available, if you appoint to
both having full authority, you're asking for trouble.
What if they don't agree and then how
do you deal with that?
And does that lead you to court anyway?
Or, you know, that's right.
You could be defeating what you're trying to
do.
(05:44):
Um, a sister document to the healthcare proxy
is a living will, which is a way
for you, the person preparing, having the documents
prepared is to state your wishes on how
you would like things handled by your healthcare
proxy or medical professional, when you're not, if
(06:04):
you were not able to make those decisions
and sometimes we'll put in there, they don't
want to be resuscitated.
They don't want extraordinary efforts made.
They don't want you to be intubated.
They don't want whatever it is personal.
So it is a written directive defining their
preferences, right?
Now, why would I have both of these
(06:26):
Jeff?
You'd have the living will, in my opinion,
to direct your health, to give information to
your healthcare proxy that is definitive, like if
you just appoint a healthcare proxy and don't,
some people appoint a healthcare proxy and don't
even tell the person they're appointing that they're
a healthcare proxy, that's not the way to
(06:47):
do it either.
But if you appoint your healthcare proxy, you
should have a conversation with them about why
they're the healthcare proxy.
Some of the, if you have unique circumstances,
share it with them and you can enshrine
those items, those wishes, those desires in a
living will that help your healthcare proxy make
(07:07):
the decisions that you would have made if
you were able to make them yourself.
Yeah.
And it's important to note that not all
jurisdictions approach this the same way.
Correct.
Uh, some states, uh, advocate the agency approach,
(07:28):
the having a healthcare proxy, a decider, a
decision maker on your behalf, and some states,
uh, prefer a written directive as the preferred
approach.
So, um, if I recall, um, I think
I've heard my brother mentioned this at, uh,
um, at a seminar, for example, I think
(07:52):
Connecticut prefers the, uh, living will.
Whereas Massachusetts prefers the healthcare proxy.
So you might want both also, right?
Because what if you're not in the right
jurisdiction, right?
I think you want both for sure.
And even if you're in a jurisdiction that
favors one or the other, think about, think
(08:15):
about putting that burden.
Maybe that's not the right word for every,
everyone, but think about putting that decision on
a loved one to make those decisions for
you, if you're not able to, what a
tremendous benefit it is.
If in your living will, you have been
very specific, like do not resuscitate, do not,
(08:37):
whatever it is, or you, or it could
be, I'm thinking I'm showing a bias here,
or it could be the opposite.
Use every measure, use all resources, right.
You know, I had a friend whose mom
was, um, very ill.
She, um, had sepsis at the time and
was, you know, very close to dying.
(09:01):
And, um, he had to choose, uh, which
approach, uh, you know, should we give her
like a, a peaceful passing, you know, try
to just make her comfortable.
Or, um, should they, you know, treat her
with, um, all measures available.
(09:22):
And he said in his case, he was
like, Hey, when you're dead, it's forever, you
know, let's pull out all the stops, you
know, and, uh, in her case, we did,
uh, recover as it turned out.
Um, but you know, I think in, there
was also some, um, you know, cognitive issues
(09:42):
from, um, anesthesias and things like that, you
know, that, that had some lasting impact.
The, the point being though, different people are,
have different preferences and different priorities.
You know, how, how do you deal with
that?
At what stage?
That's why I call the living well, the
sister agreement of the healthcare proxy, because I
think in the perfect world, you give someone
(10:04):
your healthcare proxy, you tell them about it.
You tell them why they, why you selected
that person, the reasons and share with them
the document and share with them the document
of your living will and let them read
it and maybe discuss it, not maybe discuss
it if you're able to.
And so the, so when it's, if it's
(10:24):
time for that healthcare proxy to have to
make the decision, you're making it a lot
clearer and a lot easier for them to
make that difficult decision, whichever way it goes.
I think that's true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think as the, the show kind of
pointed out, it's, um, much more difficult when
you get to that point and that decision
has to be made by the, in this
(10:47):
example, it was the children.
It's like, um, the adult children and they
were saying, well, you know, would, would dad
really want to give up on what would
he want us to give up on him?
Yeah.
And it's like, oh man, these are, these
are challenging times to make really crucial life
and death decisions.
Emotion filled, you know, driven kind of considerations
(11:09):
on the one hand, there was the perception
that it was clear he wouldn't want this,
uh, um, intubation in this case on the
show, and then on the other hand, you
know, there's that kind of, well, he, would
he want us to give up on him
this, you know, emotion, uh, packed, uh, positioning
(11:30):
of the, of the dilemma, you know?
Um, so yeah, I think, uh, that points
to the real challenge of trying to identify,
uh, who's the right person to be your
agent, your healthcare proxy.
And will they know your wishes?
Have you clear made it clear to what
(11:52):
extent you'd want to, uh, pursue, uh, extraordinary
measures, um, in the event of, you know,
your, your inability to make your own healthcare
decisions at what stage of life, uh, do
you go from saying, you know, pull out
all the stops to, um, you know, well,
(12:13):
I've led a full life, you know, I,
I wouldn't want to.
Um, you know, have X, Y, or Z,
you know, these decisions are not stagnant.
If you're a 35 year old mother of
four, you'll probably have a different view of
that if you're a 95 year old widow
and living in assisted living.
(12:34):
Yeah.
That's a great analogy.
Just your, your PR, your perspective on these
things may be different at different moments in
time.
Um, and the, the extent of life you've
lived, you know, one thing that I've seen,
um, which I think is worth noting is
when you're preparing your estate documents, you might
be thinking about who am I going to
(12:55):
appoint to take care of these things, um,
whether it be a will power of attorney,
a healthcare proxy.
And sometimes people just think of that one
person, like we'll take care of this.
It's prudent to, to consider that maybe one
person's great to handle the financial stuff, but
one person's great to organize in a state.
(13:16):
But that person may not be the right
person for the healthcare proxy.
I think that's an excellent point.
I agree with you completely that we see
that, uh, often that it's like, Oh, the
oldest, right.
You know, uh, and it's not, it might
not be the right one, you know, and,
or, or the nearest closest, someone who's nearby.
Um, and at times I think, you know,
(13:39):
you can see how there'd be an element
of, um, practicality that, Oh, the person who
is most involved in my life because of
proximity should be the one who'd be best
able to manage my bill paying or, you
know, financial affairs because they are here.
(14:00):
Right.
And there's some truth in that probably on
the other hand, um, different people have different
skillsets and different, um, deficits, let's say as
well.
Right.
That's right.
Um, so you have to be really deliberate
about that.
There's also the risk, uh, sometimes that the,
(14:21):
uh, the siblings who are not present will
perceive, uh, undue influence or something like that
sometimes.
Uh, but, uh, are they stepping up even
though they're not nearby?
These, these are really challenging, challenging issues too.
It can be, it can be.
And I know you've seen it, Chris, um,
(14:43):
in your various experiences is death and legacy
and healthcare decisions can be a point of
strife in families.
Yeah.
And so having these documents and having these
conversations about these documents while you're alive can
really go a long way to avoiding those,
(15:04):
that family strife.
Yeah.
I think you're, you, you're right.
An ounce of prevention, um, worth a pound
of cure in that scenario that elaborating on
why, just to say I've made this decision
and here's why sometimes can really be valuable
to particularly the siblings who aren't the person
(15:25):
that you've chosen for one thing or another.
Um, it can, it can add a lot
of value.
So they know that you did give it
consideration and maybe there's a great reason why
you said, I don't want to place this
burden on you or, or whatever it might
be, you know, um, not enough going on
with what's going on in your family or
whatever, you know, that kind of value judgment
(15:47):
about your ability.
It's another reason.
Yeah.
I didn't make a mistake too.
Sometimes if there's not that communication, sometimes a
child, it's as a group of children may
think that there was a mistake or undue
influence, right?
They made that decision because I've lived far
away or, you know, whatever the, you know,
(16:07):
whatever the situation might be.
I agree with your point though.
Um, it's probably a good idea not to
have one person fill all of those roles
many times that, um, you can have, um,
you know, someone who's going to be, um,
handling the affairs of the state.
(16:28):
They don't call it executor anymore.
I forget what it's called now, but personal
representative.
Thank you.
Um, you know, that, that could be one
person, but the healthcare proxy could be someone
else.
And, uh, when it comes to, uh, a
trustee, you know, you could have, uh, more
than one, you could have, you know, it
could be different reasons to have one.
(16:48):
It doesn't have to be a family member
either.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, sometimes it's, it's better.
Not if you have, if you have the
fear as the grantor that this could cause
strife and that could be disagreement, maybe a
professional trustee, if that's not the first choice
for many people, but maybe a professional trustee,
(17:10):
or maybe someone who's not in the beneficiary
line.
So there's no motive other than fulfilling the
wishes of the grantor.
And just because someone has this role, it
can create, um, tension as you mentioned earlier.
Uh, and that can be a reason to
think about, um, some outsourced resource for some
(17:32):
of these things, because let's face it when,
um, someone passes a lot of emotional baggage
bubbles up and, um, you know, you always
were, you, I never, you know, this kind
of stuff kind of pops up a little
bit.
And, um, when it comes to, uh, everyone
(17:53):
in the family may have different financial capabilities,
different, uh, uh, family dynamics of what's going
on with their, you know, their kids and
their, their financial life.
And so, um, you know, I think sometimes
you, you want elements of transparency.
Uh, on the other hand, there needs to
(18:13):
be clarity of who's in charge and who
gets, who has the decision making capability.
Um, you can find that, uh, heirs want
everything to be resolved instantaneously.
Um, but that's just not the way it
works.
Unfortunately, it takes time to go through a
probate process, or even in the case of
(18:35):
a trust, uh, that can not, you know,
happen instantaneously where there's a graph, there's a
number of things that need to be accounted
for before, uh, you, you maybe disperse assets
or, you know, make sure we, we have
enough for any tax considerations that might be
an issue and whether it's income taxes or
estate taxes or whatever may be.
(18:57):
So yeah, so there have to, there's a
sort of a process and, um, sometimes people
can perceive, oh, they're dragging their feet and,
you know, there's some, you know, discontent, you
know what I mean?
So, um, you know, I guess it's, it's
easier from, you know, if you're not the
person, it's easier to be critical, right?
(19:20):
Uh, whereas the person who has all the
responsibility has to follow these kind of various
considerations and rules and process of the whole
thing.
So Russ, it sounds like you've watched the
pit or watching.
Yeah, I am watching the pit.
Yes.
Is there two healthcare agents in this scenario?
Yes.
(19:40):
Yeah.
So it's both, both two siblings and the
brother seems to know better, right?
Yeah.
The brother, the brother, uh, no, he thinks,
no, no, he seems to know what the
father really wanted, but he's acquiescing to the,
to the sisters.
Emotions.
Yeah.
(20:01):
Is there a living, is there a living
will in the discussion or just not in
this discussion?
Yeah.
Okay.
Was there, oh, there was a direct advance
directive.
Yeah.
It'd be a living will as we commonly
call it in Massachusetts.
Yeah.
The doctor was, you know, encouraging them to,
you know, is that really his wish or
what's his, what's, what are his actual desires?
(20:22):
What a tough spot for doctors too.
I mean, you know, we're just thinking about
the family members, but doctors.
Well, they threatened the lawsuit, right?
They were like, well, the, um, the kids
threatened to sue the hospital if they didn't
honor the daughter in this case, threatened to
sue the hospital, the healthcare proxy honor her
wishes.
Right.
(20:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So they were like, okay.
Sounds like a law school, uh, case study.
Yeah.
On this kind of thing.
Right.
It's like, it's, it's a good, you know,
it's entertaining of course.
And you know, it's not you in the
sense that it's, you know, you really can
relate to these characters.
(21:03):
Right.
That's what I mean.
You know, um, but at the same time,
it is a good thought exercise.
Can be informative to your own situation and
what might happen if you had to pass.
Right.
Right.
And this is something we talk about.
I am going to watch the show.
We do have max and sounds like something
that we would enjoy.
(21:25):
But this is something, when we talk about
financial planning and things that ways that we
assist our clients, this is something we talk
about initially and meaning estate planning.
And in every annual review that we do
with them, like life changes, right?
Anything change in your life?
Is your estate planning settled?
(21:47):
And, you know, this also brings up the
subject of my, I know I'm going on
tangents, which you know better.
You hired me.
You know, this goes into a subject that
we'll probably be talking about in other episodes.
But should there be a family meeting?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
(22:08):
I think that's a good point.
It does.
It does lead to that kind of thing.
How much if with a little bit of.
Advanced conversation, can some of these things be
put out there and and have greater sense
of clarity around it?
Yeah.
And that doesn't mean that you're disclosing as
(22:31):
the as in this case, the father, if
he was to if he did have a
family meeting, the father in the pit, which
I haven't seen.
Yeah.
Well, and the challenge in this particular case
was he would have had to have the
meeting five years ago, you know, I mean,
or whatever.
Because he was starting to have issues of
dementia and, you know, moments of clarity, but
(22:53):
not always, you know, that kind of thing.
Which makes it even more complicated, right?
Yes, exactly.
Family meeting could be when you prepare your
estate planning documents as you as you're getting
older and you're like thinking about your legacy.
And, you know, if it's more it's growing
more possible each year that these documents might
(23:14):
be needed or it could be in the
context with your financial advisor as well or
both.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's funny you mentioned before that.
You know, people will have the occasion on
another, I think, episode where we talked about
the idea that there are times when people
will be just like, oh, no way, no
(23:35):
how I'm not going to have long term
care.
Right.
You know, and we have these kind of
conversations with people periodically thinking about how would
you want things to be handled?
And sometimes they're, you know, thoughtful, deliberate, elaborated
(23:55):
on.
But other times it's kind of impulsive.
Right.
Flippant a little, you know, like that try
to make light of it, you know, like
they don't want to don't want to really
get into the particulars.
And yeah, dismissive in a sense.
But it's I think it's challenging.
Go ahead.
(24:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think in our field and, you know,
we think of this as a very objective
thing.
We think the importance of planning and having
a plan in place.
But, you know, for a lot of people
having these conversations, even thinking about, like, big
picture things like estate planning, who's going to
take care of my needs if I'm incapacitated?
Like, those are very challenging things to consider,
(24:37):
let alone talk about, especially to family members.
Sometimes, you know, even kids don't want to
hear it from their parents.
Oh, no, let's not let's not go there
like la la la la.
Yeah, exactly.
So whether it be the parents or the
kids or whatever the situation may be, those
are challenging.
They think sometimes don't talk that way.
Like, oh, you know, don't talk that way.
You're going to be around, you know, that
kind of thing.
(24:58):
But I think that's a good point, Russ.
All these things that we brought up in
this in this episode are like, these are
the reasons why it's important to consider it,
even though it's very difficult, you know, and
I think we're you know, we want to
appreciate that.
But it's it's a difficult thing to discuss.
But it's crucially important to to talk about
it now while like we still can while
we don't have to make those decisions.
(25:19):
You know, yeah, you can talk about it
in a little bit of an abstract way,
even though we know there's an element of
this that might be relevant to, you know,
we've had that occasion where we talk with
clients about their health care because we know
there's an issue.
Yeah, and it's hard to talk about that
or or when someone knows their terminal or
something, it's it's very challenging to have that
(25:42):
conversation.
But it's really important to sort of have
the opportunity to say, OK, so how will
this work?
What will happen and get that benefit of
that insight and what their wishes might be
and and and some of the planning they've
done and all the rest of it that,
you know, we we can.
(26:03):
Knowledge is power, right?
And we can we can be more in
control by knowing what the plan is and
how it's going to work and what's intended
and all the rest.
And it's important.
It's not always easy.
When I was practicing law and preparing estates
for clients, I would often frame this meeting
(26:26):
with the client as they're about to do
this is it's a gift.
It really is a gift that you're providing
to your family by by thinking about this,
by preparing documents and by having those conversations
after the documents are prepared with the people
that you select.
It could avoid it's going to make your
transfer your assets easier.
(26:48):
It's going to make your likelihood of six
strife in the family less, and it's going
to improve your legacy that what you're trying
to be remembered for by having a really
comprehensive estate planning in place when you pass.
Well, I hope this has been a helpful
(27:09):
conversation for our listeners and some of the
things to be thinking about when it comes
to your planning, the people you involve in
your planning.
It's really important to have the right kind
of estate plan and the right kind of
estate planning attorney that's geared toward this.
There are multiple types out there, and I
(27:32):
think to some extent, having that conversation with
your financial planner to start with can help
you navigate.
Are you looking for an estate plan that's
geared toward Medicaid planning?
Are you looking for an estate plan?
It's not basically a different approach, one that's
more geared toward you retaining your wealth and
control of it over your lifetime.
(27:53):
But with the right kinds of documents like
these, both are valid approaches.
Different circumstances warrant one approach versus another, and
different attorneys are better equipped to deal with
different approaches.
There are lots of attorneys out there that
handle real estate transactions and divorce and litigation
(28:17):
or whatever it might be.
There's different areas of expertise.
And estate planning and elder law, these tend
to be the issues that retirees want to
kind of evaluate.
But that focus toward a Medicaid approach versus
use of a revocable trust, a living trust,
(28:40):
these are different approaches.
And you may want some conversation around, which
is the right kind of path for me
given my resources?
And that can involve some of these conversations
about control and what would you want to
see happen?
How would you want this to play out?
What's a greater value to you when it
(29:01):
comes to the way you receive care versus
the way your wealth is retained intergenerationally?
These are not easy choices sometimes.
But get some input on that and find
the right fit for the right kind of
an attorney.
And in any case, if we can be
a resource in any of your planning and
(29:22):
around your portfolio management or when it comes
to these kinds of issues, when it comes
to estate planning, tax planning, insurance, and so
forth, we're happy to be part of that
conversation and help you navigate this.
You can reach out to us through our
website, somethingmorewithchrisboyd.com, we'll get you there.
(29:42):
Or you can always give us a call,
866-771-8901.
Thanks, guys, for a good conversation.
Until next time, everybody, keep striving for something
more.
(30:14):
866-771-8901 or send us your questions
to amr-info at wealthenhancement.com.
You're listening to Something More with Chris Boyd
Financial Talk Show.
Wealth Enhancement Advisory Services and Jay Christopher Boyd
provide investment advice on an individual basis to
clients only.
Proper advice depends on a complete analysis of
all facts and circumstances.
(30:35):
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pertaining to your specific situation.
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information from this show will generate profits or
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Listeners should consult their own financial advisors or
conduct their own due diligence before making any
financial decisions.
Welcome to something more with Chris Boyd.
Chris Boyd is a certified financial planner, practitioner,
and senior vice president, financial advisor at wealth
enhancement group.
One of the nation's largest registered investment advisors.
We call it something more because we'd like
to talk not only about those important dollar
and cents issues, but also the quality of
life issues that make the money matters matter.
(00:22):
Here he is your fulfillment facilitator, your partner
in prosperity, advising clients on Cape Cod and
across the country.
Here's your host, Jay Christopher Boyd.
Welcome to the program.
Something more with Chris Boyd.
I'm here with Jeff Perry and Russ Ball.
We are of the AMR team at wealth
(00:42):
enhancement group and glad to have you with
us today.
Our subject is a living will.
I think we're going to talk about for
the most part.
And, um, I came across an article, um,
that was, uh, from the wall street journal
called, she signed a living will her sister
didn't honor it.
And I just thought, uh, this is a
(01:03):
topic that's kind of, uh, of interest.
And it prompted me as we were thinking
about talking about it.
Um, have you guys started watching the pit?
Um, uh, HBO max, uh, television show, Noah
Wiley.
No, he's the, uh, ER guy.
(01:24):
Yeah.
He was on ER.
They actually sued him.
Uh, the, uh, state of Michael Crichton or
something for, uh, making a rip off of
ER apparently really.
Yeah.
So it's a pit, a rip off of
ER.
Kind of, um, it's like, it's a medical,
it's a medical trauma and it takes place
(01:46):
in an emergency room.
And so maybe it's a start, right?
Yeah.
But anyway, um, I I'm enjoying it.
And, um, one of the episodes that, uh,
we've seen, they, they, they only drop them
once a week.
So, um, this, one of these episodes had
a similar story to this notion where.
(02:08):
Um, I don't want to ruin it for
anybody, but so, you know, I don't know
if you're, if you haven't watched it, uh,
just spoiler alert, I guess, you know, we're
talking about an episode.
So anyway, um, the, there was a gentleman,
an older, uh, father, elderly father who came
in and, uh, had clear instructions as to
what he wanted, but the kids were the,
(02:30):
um, healthcare proxy agent and, um, they got
to choose what, what would be the case.
And so the, the drama unfolds with, you
know, the medical advice versus, you know, what
can they do?
What, what should they do?
Um, some challenging discussions, you know, about when
(02:53):
do you let go?
You know, that kind of thing.
Should we, uh, inform our listeners?
We don't know about these terms, what these
things we're talking about.
Yep.
So we're talking about a state planning documents,
right?
Yeah.
So documents you prepare as you're thinking about
end of your life and your legacy and
(03:13):
passing on, and I think most people have
heard of a will that's who gets your
stuff, right?
Basically what areas you want to get, what
part of your financial assets, your real estate,
your personal property.
That's kind of the basic thing that most
people know.
Um, some people need a trust, not going
to get into that for this purpose, but
that also can define who gets your stuff,
(03:35):
who handles your finance, your affairs, if you're
not able to, that's another document that does
some of that as well, right?
Jeff.
Yeah.
There's a, well, there's a power of attorney
also out there just in case people know
these terms, um, which would allow someone to
manage your financial affairs while you're incapacitated before
you die, a durable power of attorney, if
(03:58):
you lose your own ability to manage your
own personal financial affairs, and then there's a
couple documents having to do with your health
and decisions.
One is a healthcare proxy and highly recommended
that everyone listening, no matter what your age
is, you have a healthcare proxy.
It's a directive that you give your authority
to sounds like it's going to be part
(04:20):
of our conversation, but to at least one
person as your healthcare proxy, that person can
make the healthcare decisions if you are not
able to make those decisions as defined by
a medical professional.
So, you know, you're, you get in a
car accident.
You're not, you're unconscious.
You're in a coma.
There's choices about your medical care, decisions about
(04:42):
surgeries, whatever the situation might be.
Your healthcare proxy is authorized to make those
decisions for you.
And so they are an agent, an individual
who can discern what's the medical prognosis relative
to what they understand your preferences to be,
(05:02):
what they've deemed to be appropriate for you.
Yes, they are.
As they are an agent, they are supposed
to be standing in your shoes, making the
decision for you.
Um, we'll get into it probably in the
narrative, but if you appoint to hopefully one
is in charge and one is the successor,
(05:23):
meaning Sally's in charge, Joey makes the decision.
If Sally's not available, if you appoint to
both having full authority, you're asking for trouble.
What if they don't agree and then how
do you deal with that?
And does that lead you to court anyway?
Or, you know, that's right.
You could be defeating what you're trying to
do.
(05:44):
Um, a sister document to the healthcare proxy
is a living will, which is a way
for you, the person preparing, having the documents
prepared is to state your wishes on how
you would like things handled by your healthcare
proxy or medical professional, when you're not, if
(06:04):
you were not able to make those decisions
and sometimes we'll put in there, they don't
want to be resuscitated.
They don't want extraordinary efforts made.
They don't want you to be intubated.
They don't want whatever it is personal.
So it is a written directive defining their
preferences, right?
Now, why would I have both of these
(06:26):
Jeff?
You'd have the living will, in my opinion,
to direct your health, to give information to
your healthcare proxy that is definitive, like if
you just appoint a healthcare proxy and don't,
some people appoint a healthcare proxy and don't
even tell the person they're appointing that they're
a healthcare proxy, that's not the way to
(06:47):
do it either.
But if you appoint your healthcare proxy, you
should have a conversation with them about why
they're the healthcare proxy.
Some of the, if you have unique circumstances,
share it with them and you can enshrine
those items, those wishes, those desires in a
living will that help your healthcare proxy make
(07:07):
the decisions that you would have made if
you were able to make them yourself.
Yeah.
And it's important to note that not all
jurisdictions approach this the same way.
Correct.
Uh, some states, uh, advocate the agency approach,
(07:28):
the having a healthcare proxy, a decider, a
decision maker on your behalf, and some states,
uh, prefer a written directive as the preferred
approach.
So, um, if I recall, um, I think
I've heard my brother mentioned this at, uh,
um, at a seminar, for example, I think
(07:52):
Connecticut prefers the, uh, living will.
Whereas Massachusetts prefers the healthcare proxy.
So you might want both also, right?
Because what if you're not in the right
jurisdiction, right?
I think you want both for sure.
And even if you're in a jurisdiction that
favors one or the other, think about, think
(08:15):
about putting that burden.
Maybe that's not the right word for every,
everyone, but think about putting that decision on
a loved one to make those decisions for
you, if you're not able to, what a
tremendous benefit it is.
If in your living will, you have been
very specific, like do not resuscitate, do not,
(08:37):
whatever it is, or you, or it could
be, I'm thinking I'm showing a bias here,
or it could be the opposite.
Use every measure, use all resources, right.
You know, I had a friend whose mom
was, um, very ill.
She, um, had sepsis at the time and
was, you know, very close to dying.
(09:01):
And, um, he had to choose, uh, which
approach, uh, you know, should we give her
like a, a peaceful passing, you know, try
to just make her comfortable.
Or, um, should they, you know, treat her
with, um, all measures available.
(09:22):
And he said in his case, he was
like, Hey, when you're dead, it's forever, you
know, let's pull out all the stops, you
know, and, uh, in her case, we did,
uh, recover as it turned out.
Um, but you know, I think in, there
was also some, um, you know, cognitive issues
(09:42):
from, um, anesthesias and things like that, you
know, that, that had some lasting impact.
The, the point being though, different people are,
have different preferences and different priorities.
You know, how, how do you deal with
that?
At what stage?
That's why I call the living well, the
sister agreement of the healthcare proxy, because I
think in the perfect world, you give someone
(10:04):
your healthcare proxy, you tell them about it.
You tell them why they, why you selected
that person, the reasons and share with them
the document and share with them the document
of your living will and let them read
it and maybe discuss it, not maybe discuss
it if you're able to.
And so the, so when it's, if it's
(10:24):
time for that healthcare proxy to have to
make the decision, you're making it a lot
clearer and a lot easier for them to
make that difficult decision, whichever way it goes.
I think that's true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think as the, the show kind of
pointed out, it's, um, much more difficult when
you get to that point and that decision
has to be made by the, in this
(10:47):
example, it was the children.
It's like, um, the adult children and they
were saying, well, you know, would, would dad
really want to give up on what would
he want us to give up on him?
Yeah.
And it's like, oh man, these are, these
are challenging times to make really crucial life
and death decisions.
Emotion filled, you know, driven kind of considerations
(11:09):
on the one hand, there was the perception
that it was clear he wouldn't want this,
uh, um, intubation in this case on the
show, and then on the other hand, you
know, there's that kind of, well, he, would
he want us to give up on him
this, you know, emotion, uh, packed, uh, positioning
(11:30):
of the, of the dilemma, you know?
Um, so yeah, I think, uh, that points
to the real challenge of trying to identify,
uh, who's the right person to be your
agent, your healthcare proxy.
And will they know your wishes?
Have you clear made it clear to what
(11:52):
extent you'd want to, uh, pursue, uh, extraordinary
measures, um, in the event of, you know,
your, your inability to make your own healthcare
decisions at what stage of life, uh, do
you go from saying, you know, pull out
all the stops to, um, you know, well,
(12:13):
I've led a full life, you know, I,
I wouldn't want to.
Um, you know, have X, Y, or Z,
you know, these decisions are not stagnant.
If you're a 35 year old mother of
four, you'll probably have a different view of
that if you're a 95 year old widow
and living in assisted living.
(12:34):
Yeah.
That's a great analogy.
Just your, your PR, your perspective on these
things may be different at different moments in
time.
Um, and the, the extent of life you've
lived, you know, one thing that I've seen,
um, which I think is worth noting is
when you're preparing your estate documents, you might
be thinking about who am I going to
(12:55):
appoint to take care of these things, um,
whether it be a will power of attorney,
a healthcare proxy.
And sometimes people just think of that one
person, like we'll take care of this.
It's prudent to, to consider that maybe one
person's great to handle the financial stuff, but
one person's great to organize in a state.
(13:16):
But that person may not be the right
person for the healthcare proxy.
I think that's an excellent point.
I agree with you completely that we see
that, uh, often that it's like, Oh, the
oldest, right.
You know, uh, and it's not, it might
not be the right one, you know, and,
or, or the nearest closest, someone who's nearby.
Um, and at times I think, you know,
(13:39):
you can see how there'd be an element
of, um, practicality that, Oh, the person who
is most involved in my life because of
proximity should be the one who'd be best
able to manage my bill paying or, you
know, financial affairs because they are here.
(14:00):
Right.
And there's some truth in that probably on
the other hand, um, different people have different
skillsets and different, um, deficits, let's say as
well.
Right.
That's right.
Um, so you have to be really deliberate
about that.
There's also the risk, uh, sometimes that the,
(14:21):
uh, the siblings who are not present will
perceive, uh, undue influence or something like that
sometimes.
Uh, but, uh, are they stepping up even
though they're not nearby?
These, these are really challenging, challenging issues too.
It can be, it can be.
And I know you've seen it, Chris, um,
(14:43):
in your various experiences is death and legacy
and healthcare decisions can be a point of
strife in families.
Yeah.
And so having these documents and having these
conversations about these documents while you're alive can
really go a long way to avoiding those,
(15:04):
that family strife.
Yeah.
I think you're, you, you're right.
An ounce of prevention, um, worth a pound
of cure in that scenario that elaborating on
why, just to say I've made this decision
and here's why sometimes can really be valuable
to particularly the siblings who aren't the person
(15:25):
that you've chosen for one thing or another.
Um, it can, it can add a lot
of value.
So they know that you did give it
consideration and maybe there's a great reason why
you said, I don't want to place this
burden on you or, or whatever it might
be, you know, um, not enough going on
with what's going on in your family or
whatever, you know, that kind of value judgment
(15:47):
about your ability.
It's another reason.
Yeah.
I didn't make a mistake too.
Sometimes if there's not that communication, sometimes a
child, it's as a group of children may
think that there was a mistake or undue
influence, right?
They made that decision because I've lived far
away or, you know, whatever the, you know,
(16:07):
whatever the situation might be.
I agree with your point though.
Um, it's probably a good idea not to
have one person fill all of those roles
many times that, um, you can have, um,
you know, someone who's going to be, um,
handling the affairs of the state.
(16:28):
They don't call it executor anymore.
I forget what it's called now, but personal
representative.
Thank you.
Um, you know, that, that could be one
person, but the healthcare proxy could be someone
else.
And, uh, when it comes to, uh, a
trustee, you know, you could have, uh, more
than one, you could have, you know, it
could be different reasons to have one.
(16:48):
It doesn't have to be a family member
either.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, sometimes it's, it's better.
Not if you have, if you have the
fear as the grantor that this could cause
strife and that could be disagreement, maybe a
professional trustee, if that's not the first choice
for many people, but maybe a professional trustee,
(17:10):
or maybe someone who's not in the beneficiary
line.
So there's no motive other than fulfilling the
wishes of the grantor.
And just because someone has this role, it
can create, um, tension as you mentioned earlier.
Uh, and that can be a reason to
think about, um, some outsourced resource for some
(17:32):
of these things, because let's face it when,
um, someone passes a lot of emotional baggage
bubbles up and, um, you know, you always
were, you, I never, you know, this kind
of stuff kind of pops up a little
bit.
And, um, when it comes to, uh, everyone
(17:53):
in the family may have different financial capabilities,
different, uh, uh, family dynamics of what's going
on with their, you know, their kids and
their, their financial life.
And so, um, you know, I think sometimes
you, you want elements of transparency.
Uh, on the other hand, there needs to
(18:13):
be clarity of who's in charge and who
gets, who has the decision making capability.
Um, you can find that, uh, heirs want
everything to be resolved instantaneously.
Um, but that's just not the way it
works.
Unfortunately, it takes time to go through a
probate process, or even in the case of
(18:35):
a trust, uh, that can not, you know,
happen instantaneously where there's a graph, there's a
number of things that need to be accounted
for before, uh, you, you maybe disperse assets
or, you know, make sure we, we have
enough for any tax considerations that might be
an issue and whether it's income taxes or
estate taxes or whatever may be.
(18:57):
So yeah, so there have to, there's a
sort of a process and, um, sometimes people
can perceive, oh, they're dragging their feet and,
you know, there's some, you know, discontent, you
know what I mean?
So, um, you know, I guess it's, it's
easier from, you know, if you're not the
person, it's easier to be critical, right?
(19:20):
Uh, whereas the person who has all the
responsibility has to follow these kind of various
considerations and rules and process of the whole
thing.
So Russ, it sounds like you've watched the
pit or watching.
Yeah, I am watching the pit.
Yes.
Is there two healthcare agents in this scenario?
Yes.
(19:40):
Yeah.
So it's both, both two siblings and the
brother seems to know better, right?
Yeah.
The brother, the brother, uh, no, he thinks,
no, no, he seems to know what the
father really wanted, but he's acquiescing to the,
to the sisters.
Emotions.
Yeah.
(20:01):
Is there a living, is there a living
will in the discussion or just not in
this discussion?
Yeah.
Okay.
Was there, oh, there was a direct advance
directive.
Yeah.
It'd be a living will as we commonly
call it in Massachusetts.
Yeah.
The doctor was, you know, encouraging them to,
you know, is that really his wish or
what's his, what's, what are his actual desires?
(20:22):
What a tough spot for doctors too.
I mean, you know, we're just thinking about
the family members, but doctors.
Well, they threatened the lawsuit, right?
They were like, well, the, um, the kids
threatened to sue the hospital if they didn't
honor the daughter in this case, threatened to
sue the hospital, the healthcare proxy honor her
wishes.
Right.
(20:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So they were like, okay.
Sounds like a law school, uh, case study.
Yeah.
On this kind of thing.
Right.
It's like, it's, it's a good, you know,
it's entertaining of course.
And you know, it's not you in the
sense that it's, you know, you really can
relate to these characters.
(21:03):
Right.
That's what I mean.
You know, um, but at the same time,
it is a good thought exercise.
Can be informative to your own situation and
what might happen if you had to pass.
Right.
Right.
And this is something we talk about.
I am going to watch the show.
We do have max and sounds like something
that we would enjoy.
(21:25):
But this is something, when we talk about
financial planning and things that ways that we
assist our clients, this is something we talk
about initially and meaning estate planning.
And in every annual review that we do
with them, like life changes, right?
Anything change in your life?
Is your estate planning settled?
(21:47):
And, you know, this also brings up the
subject of my, I know I'm going on
tangents, which you know better.
You hired me.
You know, this goes into a subject that
we'll probably be talking about in other episodes.
But should there be a family meeting?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
(22:08):
I think that's a good point.
It does.
It does lead to that kind of thing.
How much if with a little bit of.
Advanced conversation, can some of these things be
put out there and and have greater sense
of clarity around it?
Yeah.
And that doesn't mean that you're disclosing as
(22:31):
the as in this case, the father, if
he was to if he did have a
family meeting, the father in the pit, which
I haven't seen.
Yeah.
Well, and the challenge in this particular case
was he would have had to have the
meeting five years ago, you know, I mean,
or whatever.
Because he was starting to have issues of
dementia and, you know, moments of clarity, but
(22:53):
not always, you know, that kind of thing.
Which makes it even more complicated, right?
Yes, exactly.
Family meeting could be when you prepare your
estate planning documents as you as you're getting
older and you're like thinking about your legacy.
And, you know, if it's more it's growing
more possible each year that these documents might
(23:14):
be needed or it could be in the
context with your financial advisor as well or
both.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's funny you mentioned before that.
You know, people will have the occasion on
another, I think, episode where we talked about
the idea that there are times when people
will be just like, oh, no way, no
(23:35):
how I'm not going to have long term
care.
Right.
You know, and we have these kind of
conversations with people periodically thinking about how would
you want things to be handled?
And sometimes they're, you know, thoughtful, deliberate, elaborated
(23:55):
on.
But other times it's kind of impulsive.
Right.
Flippant a little, you know, like that try
to make light of it, you know, like
they don't want to don't want to really
get into the particulars.
And yeah, dismissive in a sense.
But it's I think it's challenging.
Go ahead.
(24:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think in our field and, you know,
we think of this as a very objective
thing.
We think the importance of planning and having
a plan in place.
But, you know, for a lot of people
having these conversations, even thinking about, like, big
picture things like estate planning, who's going to
take care of my needs if I'm incapacitated?
Like, those are very challenging things to consider,
(24:37):
let alone talk about, especially to family members.
Sometimes, you know, even kids don't want to
hear it from their parents.
Oh, no, let's not let's not go there
like la la la la.
Yeah, exactly.
So whether it be the parents or the
kids or whatever the situation may be, those
are challenging.
They think sometimes don't talk that way.
Like, oh, you know, don't talk that way.
You're going to be around, you know, that
kind of thing.
(24:58):
But I think that's a good point, Russ.
All these things that we brought up in
this in this episode are like, these are
the reasons why it's important to consider it,
even though it's very difficult, you know, and
I think we're you know, we want to
appreciate that.
But it's it's a difficult thing to discuss.
But it's crucially important to to talk about
it now while like we still can while
we don't have to make those decisions.
(25:19):
You know, yeah, you can talk about it
in a little bit of an abstract way,
even though we know there's an element of
this that might be relevant to, you know,
we've had that occasion where we talk with
clients about their health care because we know
there's an issue.
Yeah, and it's hard to talk about that
or or when someone knows their terminal or
something, it's it's very challenging to have that
(25:42):
conversation.
But it's really important to sort of have
the opportunity to say, OK, so how will
this work?
What will happen and get that benefit of
that insight and what their wishes might be
and and and some of the planning they've
done and all the rest of it that,
you know, we we can.
(26:03):
Knowledge is power, right?
And we can we can be more in
control by knowing what the plan is and
how it's going to work and what's intended
and all the rest.
And it's important.
It's not always easy.
When I was practicing law and preparing estates
for clients, I would often frame this meeting
(26:26):
with the client as they're about to do
this is it's a gift.
It really is a gift that you're providing
to your family by by thinking about this,
by preparing documents and by having those conversations
after the documents are prepared with the people
that you select.
It could avoid it's going to make your
transfer your assets easier.
(26:48):
It's going to make your likelihood of six
strife in the family less, and it's going
to improve your legacy that what you're trying
to be remembered for by having a really
comprehensive estate planning in place when you pass.
Well, I hope this has been a helpful
(27:09):
conversation for our listeners and some of the
things to be thinking about when it comes
to your planning, the people you involve in
your planning.
It's really important to have the right kind
of estate plan and the right kind of
estate planning attorney that's geared toward this.
There are multiple types out there, and I
(27:32):
think to some extent, having that conversation with
your financial planner to start with can help
you navigate.
Are you looking for an estate plan that's
geared toward Medicaid planning?
Are you looking for an estate plan?
It's not basically a different approach, one that's
more geared toward you retaining your wealth and
control of it over your lifetime.
(27:53):
But with the right kinds of documents like
these, both are valid approaches.
Different circumstances warrant one approach versus another, and
different attorneys are better equipped to deal with
different approaches.
There are lots of attorneys out there that
handle real estate transactions and divorce and litigation
(28:17):
or whatever it might be.
There's different areas of expertise.
And estate planning and elder law, these tend
to be the issues that retirees want to
kind of evaluate.
But that focus toward a Medicaid approach versus
use of a revocable trust, a living trust,
(28:40):
these are different approaches.
And you may want some conversation around, which
is the right kind of path for me
given my resources?
And that can involve some of these conversations
about control and what would you want to
see happen?
How would you want this to play out?
What's a greater value to you when it
(29:01):
comes to the way you receive care versus
the way your wealth is retained intergenerationally?
These are not easy choices sometimes.
But get some input on that and find
the right fit for the right kind of
an attorney.
And in any case, if we can be
a resource in any of your planning and
(29:22):
around your portfolio management or when it comes
to these kinds of issues, when it comes
to estate planning, tax planning, insurance, and so
forth, we're happy to be part of that
conversation and help you navigate this.
You can reach out to us through our
website, somethingmorewithchrisboyd.com, we'll get you there.
(29:42):
Or you can always give us a call,
866-771-8901.
Thanks, guys, for a good conversation.
Until next time, everybody, keep striving for something
more.
(30:14):
866-771-8901 or send us your questions
to amr-info at wealthenhancement.com.
You're listening to Something More with Chris Boyd
Financial Talk Show.
Wealth Enhancement Advisory Services and Jay Christopher Boyd
provide investment advice on an individual basis to
clients only.
Proper advice depends on a complete analysis of
all facts and circumstances.
(30:35):
The information given on this program is general
financial comments and cannot be relied upon as
pertaining to your specific situation.
Wealth Enhancement Group cannot guarantee that using the
information from this show will generate profits or
ensure freedom from loss.
Listeners should consult their own financial advisors or
conduct their own due diligence before making any
financial decisions.
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