June 18, 2024 • 63 mins
In this episode, Dr. Constance Carroll, Chancellor Emerita of the San Diego Community College District, joins host Grant Oliphant to share her extraordinary journey in the realm of higher education and her lasting impact on the San Diego community. From her early days as the youngest black woman college president in the United States to her pivotal role in expanding community college baccalaureate programs, Constance’s story is one of resilience, vision, and unwavering dedication to student success.
Constance reflects on her circuitous path from Pittsburgh to San Diego, describing both cities' unique cultural and educational landscapes. She candidly discusses her transition from her plan to be a classics professor to becoming a prominent leader in community college administration, driven by her desire to create meaningful opportunities for students.
The conversation delves into Constance’s influential work as head of the California Community College Baccalaureate Association, highlighting the significance of affordable education and workforce development in today’s economy. Her efforts have led to the expansion of bachelor’s degree programs across California’s community colleges, providing vital pathways for students and meeting critical workforce needs.
Constance also shares personal anecdotes, including the inspirational story of her mother’s perseverance in the face of educational segregation, which deeply influenced her own commitment to education and equity.
Hear Constance Carroll’s inspiring insights on the transformative power of education and her continued dedication to fostering a brighter future for students in San Diego and beyond.
Credits:
This is a production of the Prebys Foundation.
Hosted by Grant Oliphant
Co-Hosted by Crystal Page
Co-produced by Crystal Page and Adam Greenfield
Engineered by Adam Greenfield
Production Assistance by Tess Karesky
The Stop & Talk Theme song was created by San Diego’s own Mr. Lyrical Groove.
Recorded at the Voice of San Diego Podcast Studio
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Crystal Page (00:11):
Hello, Grant.
Grant Oliphant (00:13):
Hi, Crystal. Welcome to Stop and Talk.
Crystal Page (00:15):
I'm thrilled to be here because doctor Constance
Carroll is on the podcast today.
Grant Oliphant (00:21):
I share your enthusiasm. Constance is an
extraordinary individual, andthis is gonna be a fun
conversation.
Crystal Page (00:30):
She's kinda not to fangirl it too much, but she's
kind of a shero of mine andthat, like, at the age of 31,
she was one of the youngestchancellors in history in the
history of the United States.You know? But, also, she is so
witty, and she'll just, like,burn you with a joke, and it's
funny. She's just amazing.
Grant Oliphant (00:49):
So yeah. She is. And she was, at the time when
she became chancellor, theyoungest black woman in the
United States to play that role,and she does not ever come
across in conversation with herlike someone who wears on her
sleeve that she has accomplishedso much. She's incredibly
humble, and yet she's a veryimportant person in San Diego,
(01:12):
and actually in the in thehistory of education in our
country. She was president ofSaddleback College in Orange
County, president of IndianValley Colleges in Marin County,
where she also spent a year asinterim chancellor of the Marin
Community College District.
For 11 years, she served aspresident of San Diego Mesa
College, and then served as thecollege district's chancellor
(01:35):
from 2004 to 2021. And I thoughtit was important to mention that
because that's an extraordinarytrack record of accomplishment
from a very young age, and itgave her a a perspective on
what's needed in American highereducation that I think is really
important for today,particularly around workforce.
Crystal Page (01:59):
I 100% agree, and I was actually just at the Peter
Seidler life celebration oflife, and Constance was actually
asked to speak at that event.And she shared this story of
brainstorming this, collegepromise for students that Peter
was actually the 1st majorfunder of. So it's clear, like,
she's relational, she'scollaborative, and brings about
(02:22):
big things for the the good ofcommunity college students.
Grant Oliphant (02:25):
Yeah. I think this is the extraordinary thing
about her, and, you know, youfind this often with people like
her that they they go oncontributing in in myriad ways,
even when they, quote, unquote,supposedly retire. And you'll
hear that that, Constance iscould hardly, by any definition,
(02:45):
be considered retired. She is,even now, president of the
California Community CollegeBaccalaureate Association, which
is a nonprofit, associated withthe goal of supporting and
expanding 4 year degrees at thestate's community colleges. She
just keeps on giving, and herher talk at Peter Seidler's
(03:08):
memorial and Peter, by the way,for anybody who doesn't know,
was the recently deceased andmuch revered owner of the San
Diego Padres.
The the reason she was asked tospeak there was she had she
engaged with community in areally deep and meaningful way,
and she loved San diego lovesSan Diego, and San Diego loved
(03:31):
her back. And and she talked alittle bit about that.
Crystal Page (03:35):
And, also, just to be a little bit silly, I always
hear that Constance knows LadyGaga. How does she know Lady
Gaga?
Grant Oliphant (03:43):
Yeah. Poor Constance. She must get tired of
being asked this question, butyou would never know it from the
way calm way she answers it.Yeah. So she she has a long term
association with, helpingpresidents understand issues
related to the arts andhumanity.
She's on president Obama'sNational Endowment for the
(04:03):
Humanities Committee, and morerecently, she was appointed, to
the president's committee on thearts and humanities by president
Biden. Lady Gaga co chairs thatcommittee. That's how she knows
her, and what she shares with usis that Lady Gaga is quite
(04:24):
serious and studious about theresponsibilities of that
committee and her role on it.
Crystal Page (04:29):
And she prefers to be called Stephanie is what I'm
sure in that context. Yeah.Yeah. So, basically, what you're
saying is Constance is a bigdeal in education, arts, and
culture.
Grant Oliphant (04:39):
I am. Constance is, actually huge deal. Also
just a really nice andinteresting and thoughtful human
being. You know? There is athere is a quality in America
today that we desperately needmore of, and it's, it's that
quality of being able to talkabout anything and reason your
(05:03):
way through and think aboutwhat's good for other people,
without imposing your ownbeliefs.
And she has that capacity.You'll hear it in her voice. I
I'm I'm really eager to sharethis interview. Let's get to it.
Crystal Page (05:18):
Here we go.
Grant Oliphant (05:22):
Constance Carroll, I am so delighted to
have you on the program. Thankyou for being here.
Constance Carroll (05:28):
Well, thank you. It's my pleasure.
Grant Oliphant (05:29):
You know, I I first met you, I think, at a a
meeting I was invited to, and itwas a group of about 15 people
talking about issues importantto the region, and what
everybody thought needed tohappen, and I what I remember
about that conversation ismostly just general impressions,
(05:51):
but I remember you because yousat quietly through the whole
meeting, and then asked thezinger question that went right
to the heart of the of the issueevery was everyone was talking
about, and I thought, I have gotto meet this person. You and I,
as it turns out, have in commonYes. We do. When it comes to
(06:14):
Pittsburgh. Yes.
So I wanna start there Alright.If we can. Tell me a little bit
about, how you how you lived inPittsburgh and then how you came
to San Diego.
Constance Carroll (06:25):
Well, I was in Pittsburgh as an
undergraduate student, first atDuquesne University, and then I
did my master's and PhD at theUniversity of Pittsburgh. So,
I'm very familiar with the city.I lived in Squirrel Hill and,
enjoyed it. It surprised me,because I had not anticipated,
(06:48):
what a cultural, mecca it reallywas. And I loved the symphony.
I loved the, the art museums. Iloved everything about
Pittsburgh. And, it labors underthe the notion that it is not, a
a cultural culturally rich cityand it really is. And so, it's
(07:10):
one of the, I think, greatestcities, in the United States. I
really loved it.
Grant Oliphant (07:15):
And since moving from Pittsburgh to San Diego is
also my story, although decadesapart in terms of when we you
wised up earlier in terms ofmaking the move, but I'm gonna
get in trouble for that with myPittsburgh friends. But when
you, you've made the same move,were there any lessons you you
learned in making that move andcoming to San Diego?
Constance Carroll (07:37):
Well, I didn't come to San Diego from
Pittsburgh.
Grant Oliphant (07:39):
No.
Constance Carroll (07:40):
I I, I had a circuitous path, which went
through the University ofSouthern Maine first, then to,
Northern California, CentralCalifornia, and then, to San
Diego. Yes.
Grant Oliphant (07:54):
Yeah. Well, still, leaving out all that
middle stuff, were there anywere when you think back on your
experience there to here, werethere any takeaways for you?
Constance Carroll (08:05):
Yes. The the surprise for me in coming to San
Diego was how informal it is.Not only, in general terms but,
politically, everything is sortof, informal and operates on a
personal level. Whereas inPittsburgh, my impression was
(08:26):
that everything was quiteformal. The the biggest shock
for me, in coming to SouthernCalifornia was being called by
my first name.
Mhmm. Everyone, uses thatwhereas, in the east, as as you
know, Grant, everyone is muchmore formal. Right. It's,
Grant Oliphant (08:44):
You would have been doctor Carroll wherever
Constance Carroll (08:46):
Doctor Carroll or Dean Carroll or
President Carroll or whatever,but never they they rushed to
the first name. So, that and,and hugging. It's a huggy place.
Grant Oliphant (08:59):
I love that. Yeah. So, you know, I you had,
when you when you left thatcommunity, you were a student of
the classics. Yes. Kind oftraditionally schooled in that.
You had a PhD, and and, somewould have thought you were
(09:20):
destined therefore to teachclassics for the rest of your
life. Yes. You took a verydifferent path.
Constance Carroll (09:26):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (09:26):
And you got drawn into the community college
world, the continuing educationworld, and and we're gonna spend
a lot of time on that while wetalk because it's, I think
important in this age ofchallenged workforce and young
people facing decisions aboutwhat to do with their lives for
us to, I think, to, spend sometime on that. But how did you
(09:50):
make that transition? What wasit that drew you into that kind
of work?
Constance Carroll (09:56):
Well, as I like to tell people, I am a
classicist, and that's why Iwent into administration. Fair.
Grant Oliphant (10:02):
Okay. That's fair. Yeah.
Constance Carroll (10:04):
There, because it, there wasn't there
were not many opportunities, towork in the classics, as you may
know. Throughout the UnitedStates and the world, people
have been cutting back, onprograms like this. And so in
order to stay in education andclose to my field, I I did went
(10:27):
I did go into, administration.And and I'm I'm glad I did in
many ways because I found, a adifferent way of helping people.
My, original plan had been to,be a professor and teach
students and do research. Thatdid not work out even though
(10:48):
occasionally I still teach, but,I found another way of helping
people in in some moresignificant ways, and, by,
paving, pathways for them to,make, make achievements and the
like. So I I don't regret itbut, it it is not the path that
(11:10):
I had originally envisioned formyself.
Grant Oliphant (11:13):
It is, it is extraordinary when, when I look
at your career, how early youwere successful in terms of
that, in terms of your careerprogression. You became a
college president at a veryyoung age. You, then followed
(11:36):
through a sequence ofpresidencies and leadership
positions all the way through totoday when after having headed
San Diego's Community CollegeSystem, you, went in allegedly
retired, and then and then,which you did very badly,
(11:57):
by the way
Constance Carroll (11:58):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (11:58):
And then, to, you're currently serving on a
presidential commission on thearts and looking at the deep
issues about the role of cultureand art in our society for the
White House. Did you have anyhint of this when you were
younger that this is obviously,administration wasn't the path
(12:20):
that you wanted to followinitially, but did were you were
you always craving to be inleadership roles?
Constance Carroll (12:29):
No. I never was. I, this this was,
accidental, serendipitously,arranged by a sequence of events
that were very fortunate, forme. However, I will say that had
I been a professor or had I beenwhat I really wanted to be,
(12:51):
which was an architect early on,I would have not have had some
of the, opportunities that,opened up for me particularly
with the, presidentialcommissions and, the work, that
I do, statewide and nationally.So there there's always a silver
lining, if one lives, one's lifefully.
(13:14):
And, I'm very pleased with theway things have worked out, but
but they were not this is notwhat I had anticipated. When I
was younger, I was, enthralledwith playing the guitar and
singing every song that JoanBaez or a Buffy Sainte Marie
ever ever, wrote. And, I I was aa free spirit. And so, now I
(13:38):
find myself in a different, in adifferent role.
Grant Oliphant (13:42):
So When, one of the one of the ways in which you
failed at retirement, by theway, was to was to be in
involved with the CaliforniaCommunity College Baccalaureate
Association
Constance Carroll (13:56):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (13:57):
And you're still working with them today. And I'm
I'm curious why after retirementyou decided to take on yet
another round of work, and andcan you just say a little bit
more about what you're doingthere?
Constance Carroll (14:12):
Yes. Well, when I, left the University of
Pittsburgh and the University ofSouthern Maine, I discovered
community colleges and, foundthat they were remarkable
institutions, institutions thatreally focused on the student,
focused on community, focusedon, things that really made a
(14:35):
difference, for, for people.And, along the way, I discovered
that many states, in the union,were offering were allowing
their community colleges tooffer bachelor's degrees in
fields where the bachelor'sdegree is now required, but
where universities weren'treally, offering, those
(14:59):
programs. And so while I wasstill chancellor, I became
involved in a bill that wassponsored by, senator Marty
Block, who, had been presidentof the board of trustees of the
San Diego Community CollegeDistrict to establish a pilot
program, for community collegesto offer the bachelor's degree.
(15:21):
And, we worked very, very hardon that and, the bill passed in,
2014, allowing 15 communitycolleges in California to offer
bachelor's degrees verysuccessfully.
Then there, it was clear thatCalifornia could do much, much
more than just 15 degrees. Andso I continued to work with this
(15:44):
effort. And when I retired, Ifounded the, California
Community College BaccalaureateAssociation so that I could
spend my time focused on exactlythis. And and that's what I've
been doing. We now are up to, wehad another bill that passed in
2021, authored by, assemblymember member Jose Medina.
(16:09):
And, under that bill, allcommunity colleges in California
have the opportunity to offer,bachelor's degrees, but only in
workforce fields and only wherethere is no duplication with
what the 4 year, publicuniversities are offering. And
so with that bill, we are now upto, in California, 39, community
(16:33):
college bachelor's degrees andwith many more in the pipeline.
And so this is important work.
Grant Oliphant (16:39):
Yeah.
Constance Carroll (16:40):
It's work that, that changes, students'
lives. It gives them a wonderfulentree into gainful employment.
It benefits communities byproviding, workers for fields
that have a great deal of unmetneed. And, it's a wonderful,
wonderful we call it a movementbecause it is. We now are up to,
(17:05):
25 states in the union that dothis and I'm very, very proud
that through our efforts thatCalifornia has joined this, this
group.
Grant Oliphant (17:13):
Yeah. Well, it's, yet another tribute to
your leadership, and I I teaseyou about being bad at
retirement, but I am I'm also inawe of what you're managing to
accomplish, through your yourcontinuing dedication to to
furthering the mission of yourof your career. I wanna come
back to that in a moment, butfirst, I wanna help our
(17:36):
listeners understand maybe alittle bit more about why you do
this. And going back to youryouth, does this work ethic and
commitment to this type of workcome from anything around your
parents or your faith?
Constance Carroll (17:50):
Oh, absolutely. Particularly, my
mother was a remarkable woman.Her name was doctor Rebecca
Carroll, And, she, had quite a,a trajectory. Because when she
graduated from Morgan StateCollege, and was ready to go to
a graduate school, she wasrejected by the University of
(18:13):
Maryland, because the Universityof Maryland at the time was
still struggling withdesegregation Mhmm. And, refused
to admit any African Americanstudents, whether they refused
to admit any qualified AfricanAmerican students.
And after a tremendous courtbattle and upheaval, the
(18:40):
decision in Maryland was thatthe University of Maryland bore
responsibility for thesestudents, in this way. They had
to provide financially for themto attend, higher education, but
were not required to acceptthem, into the College Park
campus or any campus of theUniversity of Maryland.
Grant Oliphant (19:00):
Oh, wow.
Constance Carroll (19:00):
So my mother was, fortunate in that, she was
paid by the University ofMaryland, to attend the
University of Chicago Mhmm.Which, which was a boon because
it's not a university she couldever have hoped to afford.
But what what a sad, sadcommentary on this country that
(19:22):
it's better to spend, enormousamounts of money to educate
people elsewhere.
Grant Oliphant (19:29):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (19:29):
And so, from that point on, she determined
that she was going to get aneducation from the University of
Maryland. So in the sixties,she, enrolled in a program, at
College Park, which was possiblethen after all of the turmoil,
and became the first AfricanAmerican woman to earn a
(19:52):
doctorate a doctorate from theUniversity of Maryland. And she
was an inspiration to me, interms of, showing that, you can
you can prevail if you aretenacious and if you have a
strong vision and if you neverever give up. And so, that her
(20:14):
her her style, of life and herher tenacity and perseverance
were impactful for me. And, andso the she she was really the
the person who influenced me themost in that regard.
Grant Oliphant (20:29):
I don't think I I knew that story about your
mother, but thank you forsharing it, and in some ways
it's the perfect frame forunderstanding the career that
you then embarked upon, and whyyou would would spend that
career working with communitycolleges in the way that you
(20:50):
have. Can you say a little bitmore for our listeners about the
challenges that young people intoday's, work workforce face and
why community colleges areimportant today?
Constance Carroll (21:03):
Well, the the the first the first challenge
that young people face isfinancial. Mhmm. Universities
are very, very costly. And theprivate universities
particularly, they're excellentif if one can afford them. But
it's, to me, tragic to see,thousands of students graduating
(21:24):
from prestigious institutionssettled with unconscionable
levels of debt Mhmm.
When they could have the samequality education by going to a
community college first for thefreshman and sophomore years
where it's much, more, costeffective for them, where they
(21:46):
have full professors teachingthem high quality, education
and, in most cases, guaranteedtransfer then to the
universities of their of theirchoice. So community colleges,
provide that. They also provideworkforce training, that is of
great importance, in our, in ourculture, because, job most jobs,
(22:13):
today, require more than acollege, more than a, high
school diploma, and not alwaysas much as a bachelor's degree.
Mhmm. And so community collegesfill that gap as well, with the
exception that now, many of thesame fields are moving toward
(22:38):
bachelor's degree, requirementsinstead of associate degree
requirements.
Just as universities aremigrating more toward master's
degrees and doctoral degrees,there's a the great, inflation
of, of education has beenunderway for for some time. But
the role of community collegesis under underestimated,
(23:00):
understated, and Mhmm. Unknownby many people. And it's, a
great way for people to, tobegin their educational careers.
Grant Oliphant (23:10):
You met so many students during the years that
you were chancellor and, andinvolved in the community
college system. Are there arethere still folks who stand out
to you today that you met alongthe way?
Constance Carroll (23:26):
Yes. Some that I met along the way and
many that I met after the fact.Mhmm. For example, in San Diego,
2 of the the great graduates,from our community colleges in
the San Diego Community CollegeDistrict, whom we, often
reference are, Jim Sinegal, whofounded, Costco, who found
(23:48):
himself at San Diego CityCollege, and then the wonderful
actress, Annette Bening Mhmm.Who is a graduate of Mesa
College.
And she has, gone out of her wayto support the efforts of, of
Mesa College and, the San DiegoDistrict, in supporting programs
to provide free education forstudents and otherwise. And she
(24:13):
has a personal policy ofwhenever she's interviewed of
mentioning Mesa College becauseshe saw it as, as a life
changing, life changingexperience for her. So, you
know, we we meet people likethis all the time. There are
other, other people as as wellin who have graduated from other
(24:34):
colleges. The the the thetrouble, with community
colleges, grant is that manypeople, recognize the 4 year
institutions from which peoplehave graduated, but not the
community colleges.
And when one considers thatsomething like 2 thirds of the
students who graduate from theCal State University System are
(24:56):
community college transferstudents.
Grant Oliphant (24:59):
That high.
Constance Carroll (25:00):
Yes. And 1 third, of the graduates of the
University of California arecommunity college transfer
students. Then you can see theoverwhelming impact that these
colleges have. It's unfortunatethat it's an invisible, impact
to many people.
Grant Oliphant (25:18):
Right.
Constance Carroll (25:18):
But, they they play such an important
role, in, in the nation and inour state.
Grant Oliphant (25:25):
You know, I'm I'm I'm putting some of these
pieces together, and if if youin the community college system
can educate a Jim Senegal and anAnnette Benning, and you can
account for 2 thirds of thestudents graduating ultimately
from the Cal State System or or1 third from the UC System, and
(25:47):
you can educate them for afraction of the cost of those
systems. You can see why privatecolleges would be nervous about
the expansion of communitycolleges Oh, yes. Into the
baccalaureate space. You canalso see why society ultimately
shouldn't care if what we'reworried about is the kids and
(26:08):
the success of the kids. But howdo you help the the people who
are scared about the expandingrole of community colleges get
comfortable with it?
Constance Carroll (26:19):
Through what we do best, which is education.
Mhmm. We have a new bill inright now, which is requiring a
great deal of education, quote,unquote, from our, detractors
and, opponents. The, this is nota zero sum game.
Grant Oliphant (26:39):
Right.
Constance Carroll (26:40):
Right. And, educators need to understand
that. If, if a public universityis not offering a bachelor's
degree
Grant Oliphant (26:48):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (26:49):
In a field that is required now for,
employment, What why should itmatter whether or not a
community college enters thatniche?
Grant Oliphant (27:00):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (27:02):
You know, the decisions made in education
should be about need, studentneed. And in workforce
education, they should be aboutlabor opportunities and unmet
need. They should not be aboutturf Mhmm. And, and who's in
charge of what. We already have,worked to to avoid duplication
(27:24):
but, let me give you, anexample.
Mesa College was the 1stcommunity college in, California
to offer a bachelor's degree.That degree is in health
information management, which isthe digitization of, of, health
records, which is something thatthe Affordable Care Act and
(27:45):
others, require. That degree,health information management,
before Mesa offered it andbefore Shasta College offered it
the same degree, there was onlyone institution in the whole
state of California, only onethat offered that degree and
that's point that's, Loma LindaUniversity. Mhmm. So, should we
(28:11):
then say that, well, because oneinstitution in the state is
offering a degree that offerstremendous opportunities in,
workforce and employment that noone else should offer it, and
the my answer would be no.
One of the things I'veappreciated with the University
of California is how supportivethey have been of of of,
(28:35):
community colleges moving inthis direction. So, from my
standpoint, this is a win winproposition. It's not a zero
sum. It's not a competition.It's all about 2 things,
students what students need, andit's about local communities and
what local communities need andcan benefit from.
(28:57):
And if you use those two issuesas your, points of, of
departure, then everything fallsneatly into place.
Grant Oliphant (29:10):
A further illustration of that is I think
I have this right that, there'sa senate bill now that would
allow community colleges also topilot a program for a bachelor's
of science in nursing.
Constance Carroll (29:23):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (29:24):
And in that case, although there are,
institutions that already offerthat degree, there is a critical
shortage of nurses, and it'saffecting the entire health care
system. So how do you make thecase in in that situation?
Constance Carroll (29:44):
Yes. It's a excellent question, Grant. The,
the bill that, you mentioned isSenate Bill 895. The author is,
senator Richard Roth fromRiverside. As as you recall from
earlier in our conversation, Inoted that, one of the
(30:05):
agreements we had was that thecommunity colleges would not
duplicate
Grant Oliphant (30:10):
Right.
Constance Carroll (30:10):
Any bills that, any programs that the, at
the baccalaureate level that theuniversity public universities
were offering. This would be adeparture from that. Mhmm. And,
my organization, the CommunityCollege League of California and
others feel that the, shortageof nurses is so severe now Mhmm.
(30:36):
And so, hurtful to the health,and well-being of, of the
residents of our, communitiesthat we need to do something.
Mhmm. Now community collegeshave, for years, offered
associate degree, level nursingand that has always been the,
requirement for the, registerfor for being a registered
(31:00):
nurse, but that has changed too.That has now migrated to the
bachelor's level. Mhmm. Andhere's the problem, Grant.
Here's the problem. Last year,for example, the, the public
institutions, public,universities were only able to
accept 47% 47% of the, associatedegree nursing students who
(31:27):
graduated and were eligible.What happened to the rest of
them? The rest either left thestate or they went into private
institutions, in order to,become, bachelor's degree
nurses. Ask yourself, is thisgood state policy?
I would say, no. It is not. Thethe the nursing shortage is is
(31:53):
so severe, that we all need tojoin forces in order to meet it.
And if community colleges, canjoin, forces with the 4 year
institutions and, in this case,the private institutions, in
order to end the shortage, thenthat's what we should do. To me,
that's an ethical, imperative.
(32:14):
And so our bill is out and the,the knives are out at at the
same time. But we're hopefulbecause, senator Roth has the
wisdom of starting as a at a, asa pilot program, which is how we
began before that people willlearn from the pilot. The pilot
(32:35):
will be evaluated by thelegislative analyst office as
the previous one was, and wehope that then we will be able
to move forward with, expandingthe opportunities in a few
years.
Grant Oliphant (32:49):
What I what I hear you describing as you're
talking about it is a system ofeducation, that in which the
community college system adds tothe flexibility and agility and
resilience of the overalleducational system in
California. And seen that way,it becomes a lot harder to argue
(33:11):
against a a system that isclearly in demand and where
there is clear student need.Yes. Has the need for it grown
since the pandemic?
Constance Carroll (33:23):
Well, first, it fell. Mhmm. As you, you and
the listeners probably haveknown or read, community college
enrollments and universityenrollments took a tremendous
dive, during the pandemic. Butnow that we're coming out of it,
the, the need has grown becausethe interest in, the workforce
(33:46):
has grown. And as, people, beginto pursue new careers and the
like, the demand has hasincreased, just exponentially
Grant Oliphant (33:58):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (33:59):
Since the pandemic. And so this is a time
to educate America. And the bestway to educate America is to do
so practically. And the mostpractical way to educate America
is through the communitycolleges.
Grant Oliphant (34:11):
Right.
Constance Carroll (34:12):
So that that's where we find ourselves,
now.
Constance, how do we get, as asociety, get past some of the
old ideas around education andeducational attainment that get
in our way? And I'm thinking, Imean you know them better than I
do, but I'm thinking about, thereceived wisdom wisdom that has
(34:32):
existed in this society for 50years now probably that
everybody needs a bachelor'sdegree, that to be that's the
the hallmark of success in oursociety. Or the flip side,
version of that, usually said byvery wealthy people about other
people's children, that noteverybody needs a bachelor's
degree. How do we how do we cometo understand that there are
(34:58):
systems that can serve multiplelevels of education, and that we
need all of them, and it's okayto be successful at in in any
one of them? That's a verydifferent conversation than
we've had for decades.
Grant Oliphant (35:12):
How do we break through to that?
Constance Carroll (35:14):
Well, the the the first way is to stop
thinking of it as a one one sizefits all, proposition. Everybody
does not need a bachelor'sdegree, but everybody does need
some level of college. That'sjust, in order to be a a gainful
(35:36):
member of society. The the,emergence of, the sort of
computer age has changed a greatdeal so people, need, further
instruction than they couldpossibly get in high school. The
question is, based upon whatthey want to do specifically,
what kind of program they need.
(35:59):
If, many people, can, achieve,or fulfill their their goals
through apprenticeships, and,that has become a very popular
way of of going about things forsome people. Other people, want
certificates of, of completionfor various types of programs.
(36:23):
Others want an associate degree,such as in in nursing or some of
these other programs, and otherpeople will require a bachelor's
degree. If you want to be anurse in California, you need a
bachelor's degree now. And thereare many other programs, like
that.
And, so it's a matter of ofdeconstructing the the, the
(36:46):
programs themselves to see whoneeds a bachelor's degree, who
needs an associate degree, whoneeds an apprenticeship, and the
like, and to, be very specificin terms of how those students,
seek, seek their training.
Grant Oliphant (37:02):
I wanna talk for a moment about the the work
you're doing in the arts, andit's fun to talk about the
presidential commission thatyou're on that is headed, by or
co led by Lady Gaga. And, andyet your descriptions of that
panel are descriptions of thatpanel are that it's a very
serious panel doing very seriouswork, and and that sounds to as
(37:27):
though it's true of everybody onthere. Why is this important to
you, and what are you what areyou, hoping to accomplish
through that presidentialcommission?
Constance Carroll (37:37):
Well, there are actually 2, commissions. The
my first presidentialappointment was by, president
Obama to serve on the NationalHumanities Council, which is
affiliated with the NationalEndowment For the Humanities,
which is, basically, resemblesfoundation work. We receive
(37:58):
grants and grant proposals andfund them. The new commission is
interesting because it wasfounded in, 1982 by Ronald
Reagan who was concerned when hewas president, who was concerned
that, the arts particularly, butalso the humanities did not
receive the level of support inAmerica that they should.
(38:22):
And America is, is remiss insupporting its, its cultural
agencies as I think we all know.The the, the commission,
resigned and, the commissionersresigned in mass in 2017 in
protest of a previouspresident's policies. And,
(38:45):
president Biden reactivated, thethe group in, just a year ago.
And so, the, the first lady,Jill Biden, is the titular,
chair, and, Lady Gaga and BruceCohen are the, are the co
chairs, actual co chairs of thecommission. What we do is talk
(39:12):
about how to provide additionalsupport for the arts and
humanities through, making surethat the agencies involved are
work more closely together, suchas the Library of Congress, the
Smithsonian, the NationalEndowment For the Arts, the
(39:32):
National Endowment For theHumanities, and others.
We will also be exploringfundraising for the arts. And,
and then we will be, advisingand are advising the president
on policies. Policies pertainingto how the, administration,
since we are a president'scommittee, how the, to advise
(39:56):
the president on addressing suchthings as the rise of
antisemitism in America, how to,address the fact that during the
pandemic, theater attendancefell off by by over 20%, and how
to support local artists and,and people involved in the
(40:17):
humanities in many ways. So it'sit's exciting work. It's
meaningful work.
It's work I enjoy, and everyoneon the committee, is very
serious minded about it. Thequestion I get most is what is
Lady Gaga really like? And andthe answer is she's an extremely
intelligent, very, focused, veryserious minded individual who
(40:44):
takes all of this very, veryseriously. So, it's it's
exciting. I'm in my 1st yearstill and looking forward to
year 2.
Grant Oliphant (40:53):
Well, I I love the and and thank you for
sharing that. And I I love the,fact that the White House is
putting a focus on the arts inthe way they are, and and I do
think this is a propitiousmoment to be focusing on it and
caring about it. What made itimportant to you? The Humanities
(41:14):
Council, I can clearlyunderstand the connection with
education. How did you come tobe so interested in the arts,
would you say?
Constance Carroll (41:22):
Well, I'm interested in the arts because I
consider myself an, an artist.All my life, I have, been
involved in painting andsculpture. And I think I
mentioned earlier in theinterview that I was considering
architecture as a as a,potential field.
Grant Oliphant (41:39):
And you also mentioned guitar playing.
Constance Carroll (41:42):
Well, there my guitar playing is such that,
I consider it an art but otherpeople would not. They, and I'm
involved in music. I love theopera, for example. I served on
the opera board for many years.And, the arts are are are very
(42:03):
important to me.
They're import important to ourculture, in general.
Grant Oliphant (42:08):
And as you know, the foundation is active in the
area of the arts, and that's a abelief we also hold.
Constance Carroll (42:14):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (42:16):
And I I I just wanna acknowledge, we're very
lucky that you recently agreedto join our board, and we're
we're grateful to have you as a,given your civic leadership to
be, on our board.
Constance Carroll (42:30):
Well, it's my pleasure. The Prebys Foundation
is one of the best experiencesthat that that I have, had, in
my life. It's a wonderfulorganization.
Grant Oliphant: We will try to keep it that way. You (42:46):
undefined
know, I as I'm as I'm as we'retalking about that though, I'm
thinking that recently, you gavea very touching, insightful talk
at the memorial service forPeter Seidler, the former, owner
and president of the of the SanDiego Padres team. And you
(43:07):
talked about your the role heplayed, in in bringing civic
leadership to an issue you wereworking on. I'd love for you to
share that story and then Iwanna ask a follow-up question
on
Constance Carroll (43:21):
Sure. Peter Seidler was a extraordinary,
man, very dedicated, to thecommunity and very, very
practical. His work with,homeless, is well known. He
sometimes would be criticizedfor all of the homeless shelters
that he put up immediately, withpeople immediately saying, well,
(43:44):
it's more complex than that,Peter. And Peter would say,
well, tonight these people needa place to to sleep.
Mhmm. Very practical. When I wastalking with him once, we were
discussing, community collegesand students, and the fact that
most many students, could notafford shelter, could not afford
(44:06):
food, and could not afford to goto college. And that we had
started a program that wascalled the San Diego Promise,
which would make the, students'attendance in the community
college tuition free, and wouldalso provide support for books
and other other things that theymight need, he immediately
(44:29):
brightened up. And he said, thisis a great idea.
And the next day, the very nextday, he messengered over a
check. We we had not evenstarted the fundraising for the
program, but he was the veryfirst donor to the program. And
not only was he the first verygenerous donor to the program,
(44:51):
he, served on the, the promisecommittee, and provided a great
deal of advice, including usingthe owner's speech, as a, at the
owner's suite, excuse me, as asite for for fundraising that
went on. Just a very devoted,dedicated person who liked the
(45:14):
practical aspects of what wewere doing, because he knew that
students needed money, theyneeded support, they didn't need
great schemes and plans. Theythey they had the same kind of
practical needs that theunhoused population had.
And Peter was extraordinary. I Ihad tremendous, admiration for
(45:38):
both, him and Sheila, his wife,who was also, dedicated, his
brother Tom and others who werevery devoted to our community.
Grant Oliphant (45:48):
So my the reason well, I I I just appreciate that
story on so many levels andappreciated you sharing it, but
I I I also wonder a lot abouthow we preserve that commitment
to community and to civic lifethat you're describing in that
(46:09):
story. How do we have morepeople like, Peter Seidler? And
are you know, how do wecultivate more of that in San
Diego, even among people whoaren't wealthy? And I know
there's a lot of it. There's alot of it in America.
There's a lot of it in everycommunity, and there's certainly
a lot in San Diego I've youknow, we get to see it all the
(46:31):
time, And yet, in these verydivided troubled times, it feels
as though we need more. And, andand do you have any thoughts on
how we do that?
Constance Carroll (46:43):
Yes. I I think, one of the reasons I was
so and am so excited to be partof the Prebys Foundation is that
that is what the foundationdoes, in supporting people. The
the recent grants for thecommunity, emerging community
leaders and others to bringpeople forward, to celebrate
(47:05):
people, to show, role models andthe like, is is really the way
to go to go about that to to,and and to acquaint people with
what the needs are. And this iswhere I think the media, has a
great deal of challenges aheadof it. I, my church is in
(47:29):
Southeast San Diego. And many ofthe people in my church were
affected by the floods. Mhmm. Infact, Southeast San Diego was
devastated in some areas. Ithink there were over 1200
people who, lost their homes.
But if you talk with peopleusing the proverbial north of
(47:52):
the eight freeway, the responsewas, what what flood are you
talking about? Nobody knowsabout it. And, that's, the fault
of, of, insufficient mediacoverage.
Grant Oliphant (48:06):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (48:07):
We need to find ways to spread the word
about what people's needs are.And once people are aware of
that, they they're verygenerous. I mean, Americans and
San Diegans particularly are aremassively generous people if
they know, what thecircumstances are and if it is
(48:27):
made clear to them how they canbenefit or how they can provide
support. So, the PrebysFoundation celebrating people,
getting the word out, these arethe ways that we inspire people
because I think people, in thisregion naturally want to be
helpful.
Grant Oliphant (48:48):
Yeah. Well, from your lips to God's ears. I, I I
it certainly is consistent withwhat I've seen, and I think
you're right that we just wedon't, we don't tell these
stories enough so that peoplecan appreciate what others in
the community are experiencingthat is somewhat different from
(49:09):
themselves.
Constance Carroll (49:09):
Absolutely. And that that's always been the
role of the humanities to,expose people to what the human
experience actually is and toshare the narratives and stories
of, what that experience meansfor people. So
Grant Oliphant (49:25):
That's that old classic student, and you're
coming out again.
Constance Carroll (49:28):
Absolutely.
Grant Oliphant (49:30):
So let's finish up by let me just ask you,
because you you speak about SanDiego with great love and
affection.
Constance Carroll (49:38):
Oh, yes.
Grant Oliphant (49:39):
And I I would just love to hear before we wrap
up what you love about San Diegotoday, and what gives you
Crystal Page (49:46):
hope. Yes.
Constance Carroll (49:46):
I grew up, in Baltimore, Maryland in when it
was completely segregated. Mhmm.And that was an experience that
I will never forget. It was avery, defining experience to be
excluded, from almosteverything.
Grant Oliphant (50:04):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (50:06):
And it was a Baltimore was and to some extent
is still a black white city.
Grant Oliphant (50:12):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (50:13):
And I was tired of that. When I came to
San Diego, finally, I found thatthis is not a black or white
city. This is black, white,brown, Asian, everything. And
it's the, the true melting potnature of San Diego that I think
is attractive to me. As aresult, it is a very,
(50:35):
understanding and, gentle, placeto live.
And, it has great potentialstill that it needs to realize
because it's a young city inmany ways. But it is a city that
is, first and foremost, amulticultural environment. And
(50:56):
it's that multiculturalism that,is the most attractive feature,
for me to feel that I'm not on aside. Are you black or are you
white? I feel like I'm I'm partof a of a holistic, cultural
culturally rich, experience.
San Diego is maddening becauseit's, ill formed in some ways
(51:22):
and and, unsophisticated in someways, but it, is a city that
tries to do what's right. And,when I go to the Martin Luther
King, programs, there is nodominant race. It's everyone
together whether whether you'reFilipino or or Mexican or or,
(51:48):
black or what whatever, yourbackground, you're welcome and
you celebrate what, MartinLuther King described as the
beloved beloved community.
Grant Oliphant (52:00):
Right.
Constance Carroll (52:00):
And I think more than any organization in
America that the city of SanDiego, our region, is all about
becoming a beloved community.And, that that caught my heart
immediately, has my heart, andwill always claim it, in the
future.
Grant Oliphant (52:19):
That is so eloquently said, and it is the
perfect place for us to stop.Unfortunately, we've run out of
time, but I would only add, andyou're you're you're much too
modest to say this, but I knowof no better keeper of the
concept of beloved communitythan you are or have been
through your career.
Constance Carroll (52:38):
Oh, thank
Grant Oliphant (52:39):
you, great.
I wanna say thank you. And thankyou for the time today. This has
been a lovely conversation.
Constance Carroll (52:44):
Well, thank you very much.
Crystal Page (52:48):
What a great interview. I mean, doctor
Constance Carroll, I'll startthere and acknowledge that she
is an educated, hardworking gal.But I love that when you asked
her about her family, because Igot to sit in the room, she lit
up And talked about her mother'slove of education, how
(53:09):
hardworking she was, and howthat was really passed on to
her. You know?
I think we all have parents ormentors who shape who we are,
but it's a good reminder thatthese amazing great people, you
know, it's the origin of someonecaring about them and inspiring
them that makes the difference.
Grant Oliphant (53:24):
You know, since we're talking about education,
it makes sense that she wouldhave embodied the importance of
role models, you know, and theand the the inspiration she was
given around that, clearlyinfluenced her life, and she
absolutely lights up when shetalks about her and pride feels
(53:51):
like the wrong word becauseConstance is, in many ways, the
least prideful person despitebeing the most successful person
that I, you know, and that Iknow. She has that gift, but
but, yeah, there's the the prideof having come from a place
where she had people whoinspired her, and she followed a
(54:14):
path that she's proud of.
Crystal Page (54:15):
It's like, she's purpose filled. Right?
Grant Oliphant (54:18):
Like Yes. That's the that's what I'm struggling
with.
Crystal Page (54:20):
She's inherited all these things, and she's
giving it forward. You know?
Grant Oliphant (54:24):
Yeah. Exactly. I, I I think that her so much of
her story then flowing fromthat. In some ways, you know,
looking back, it's a surprise ifyou don't know her the full
story. Like, this this woman whois classically trained,
literally classically trained,by all all accounts, should have
(54:48):
probably followed a path intobeing a PhD in the classics and
working in some top tieruniversity somewhere, and
probably would've had a verysuccessful career in that and
been top of her profession.
She chose a different path. Shechose this path of going into
(55:10):
the community college system.And that begins to make more
sense if you understand thethrough line of what inspired
her, what she really wasmotivated by, what she cared
about, which is at its root, howwe educate young people to
prepare them for success inlife. Did you notice that?
Crystal Page (55:30):
A 100%. I think she's opened doors for not just
San Diegans, but people acrossthe country and made degrees and
educations more education moreaccessible to so many different
folks. So I think you're right.I she would have been an amazing
PhD teaching Latin somewhere orsomething, but I I I would bet
that her impact was even biggerbecause she chose this different
(55:53):
path.
Grant Oliphant (55:54):
And, And, of course, she does have a PhD. We
should
Crystal Page (55:56):
Oh, yeah. To clarify.
Grant Oliphant (55:57):
We are yeah. Just to clarify, we need to make
it. But, you know, I think Ithink what, Constance in her
quiet way, maybe it doesn't itit isn't obvious, but she's a
warrior. She's pretty fierce inher fight for the right of young
people to have an education thatis accessible and right sized
(56:18):
for them. So she did that whenshe was in her community college
roles, and she fought to makethose programs that that her,
colleges provided relevant forthe workforce so that her
students would graduate withusable skills and right size to
(56:39):
the circumstances so that, youknow, if they if they needed a
certification, if they neededyou know, a a particular type of
training, they would get it intheir path to getting their
associate's degree.
And I I found that ex I findthat extraordinary that she has
just really always kept her eyeon the ball of what, young
(57:03):
people and not so young peopleneed so that they can become
equipped to find a place intoday's economy.
Crystal Page (57:10):
And I think to the the, triple plus ad there is
that she's learning, like, hey.The community really still needs
more health care workers. Thecommunity colleges can offer
these services. Let's open thedoors to it. Right?
So I think she's pushing theboundaries of what's possible at
the community college level sothat we all have better health
(57:33):
practitioners and mechanics andall the things that that we need
here.
Grant Oliphant (57:36):
Yeah. Well, I I think that was another takeaway
for me. The the again, her focusis always on students and what
they need, and therefore, whatthe market needs from them
because they won't they won'tfind their path if the door is
slammed in their face. So she'slooking at, constantly mindful
(57:58):
of what the market is in need ofas well. And I think that's
what's led her to this fight forthe 4 year degrees.
It's to that community collegesare uniquely affordable places,
that can provide an fell animportant demand in the in the
world that we have today forcertain types of training and
(58:22):
certain type of skillpreparation, that isn't being
met today by the regular highered system. And she's trying to
fill those gaps, which are gapsthat hurt young people or people
retraining for future jobs inthe workforce. She's saying by
providing these 4 year degrees,we can help meet, for example,
(58:45):
the example you just gave, wecan meet the crisis and the
shortage of workforce in thehealth care arena by making it,
more avail that training moreavailable to more people.
Crystal Page (58:57):
And I think what's great about that in a I know a
lot of times we valuecollaboration and, of course,
there's always healthycompetition, but it doesn't take
away from the UCs or the stateschools. There's more than
enough demand. There's more thanenough students. Everything's
full anyway. So why not make itpossible for more youth and
(59:19):
students of any age to have theopportunity to give more and
learn more and provide more fortheir own families?
Grant Oliphant (59:25):
Exactly. You know, you, you mentioned early
on in our discussion about this,Peter Seidler. And I I think,
you know, what I wanna come backto is Constance does or and has
always done what you just saidin terms of focusing on the end
result, but she's done it in away that we all really need to
(59:50):
pay close attention to. She hasfought for the things that she
believes in. She's stillfighting for the things that she
believes in, but she's neverunmindful of the rest of the
community.
And she's always thinking abouthow does her organization nest
inside the system that she'spart of, and how does that nest
(01:00:12):
inside the larger system that isSan Diego? And who are potential
allies and fellow travelers whoshe can work with. There is, you
know, in these, divided timeswhere we see people always being
cast as pro or con, or left orright, or whatever, Constance
(01:00:33):
didn't get into that silliness.She got into how to build
coalitions of people who werelike minded and cared about the
same things. And, you know, yoursighting of Peter is a great
example of that.
It may seem unlikely that theowner of the San Diego Padres,
late owner of the San DiegoPadres, and this, woman titan of
(01:00:57):
the community college worldwould somehow have found, common
ground or common allegiance, butthey did. And they did because
there was that openness to thecountry, I think.
Crystal Page (01:01:19):
Well and and I think, again, it comes back to
that connection. Right? Thatvalue of, what matters
celebration of life for thelate, great owner of the Padres,
they talked about how Peterwould walk around and just have
conversations with people on thestreet at night or, when he and
Constance met. Right? They're ina room together just having this
(01:01:40):
conversation.
The next morning, she's got thischeck for a program she hasn't
even started. Yeah.
Grant Oliphant (01:01:45):
I love that.
Crystal Page (01:01:45):
And what's amazing about both of these individuals,
but particularly watching andwanting to model what Constance
doctor Constance Carroll bringsto the table is just focused on
the outcome, but gentle and firmin their commitment to the work.
And I just think it's somethingwe can all be inspired by and
continue to, learn from.
Grant Oliphant (01:02:06):
Crystal, I think that is a great place to end the
program today.
Crystal Page (01:02:10):
Thank you so much, Grant.
Grant Oliphant (01:02:12):
Thank you. This is a production of the Prebys
Foundation, hosted by GrantOliphant, and co hosted by
Crystal Page. The program is coproduced by Crystal Page and
Adam Greenfield, and it'sengineered by Adam Greenfield.
(01:02:32):
Production assistance isprovided by Tess Karesky. And
our new theme song is by misterLyrical Groove, a local San
Diego artist.
Download episodes at yourfavorite podcatcher or visit us
at stop and talk podcast.org. Ifyou like this show, and we
(01:02:53):
really hope you do, the best wayto support it is to share,
subscribe, and review ourpodcast. Thank you for your
support, your ideas, and most ofall, for listening. This program
has been recorded at the voiceof San Diego
Hello, Grant.
Grant Oliphant (00:13):
Hi, Crystal. Welcome to Stop and Talk.
Crystal Page (00:15):
I'm thrilled to be here because doctor Constance
Carroll is on the podcast today.
Grant Oliphant (00:21):
I share your enthusiasm. Constance is an
extraordinary individual, andthis is gonna be a fun
conversation.
Crystal Page (00:30):
She's kinda not to fangirl it too much, but she's
kind of a shero of mine andthat, like, at the age of 31,
she was one of the youngestchancellors in history in the
history of the United States.You know? But, also, she is so
witty, and she'll just, like,burn you with a joke, and it's
funny. She's just amazing.
Grant Oliphant (00:49):
So yeah. She is. And she was, at the time when
she became chancellor, theyoungest black woman in the
United States to play that role,and she does not ever come
across in conversation with herlike someone who wears on her
sleeve that she has accomplishedso much. She's incredibly
humble, and yet she's a veryimportant person in San Diego,
(01:12):
and actually in the in thehistory of education in our
country. She was president ofSaddleback College in Orange
County, president of IndianValley Colleges in Marin County,
where she also spent a year asinterim chancellor of the Marin
Community College District.
For 11 years, she served aspresident of San Diego Mesa
College, and then served as thecollege district's chancellor
(01:35):
from 2004 to 2021. And I thoughtit was important to mention that
because that's an extraordinarytrack record of accomplishment
from a very young age, and itgave her a a perspective on
what's needed in American highereducation that I think is really
important for today,particularly around workforce.
Crystal Page (01:59):
I 100% agree, and I was actually just at the Peter
Seidler life celebration oflife, and Constance was actually
asked to speak at that event.And she shared this story of
brainstorming this, collegepromise for students that Peter
was actually the 1st majorfunder of. So it's clear, like,
she's relational, she'scollaborative, and brings about
(02:22):
big things for the the good ofcommunity college students.
Grant Oliphant (02:25):
Yeah. I think this is the extraordinary thing
about her, and, you know, youfind this often with people like
her that they they go oncontributing in in myriad ways,
even when they, quote, unquote,supposedly retire. And you'll
hear that that, Constance iscould hardly, by any definition,
(02:45):
be considered retired. She is,even now, president of the
California Community CollegeBaccalaureate Association, which
is a nonprofit, associated withthe goal of supporting and
expanding 4 year degrees at thestate's community colleges. She
just keeps on giving, and herher talk at Peter Seidler's
(03:08):
memorial and Peter, by the way,for anybody who doesn't know,
was the recently deceased andmuch revered owner of the San
Diego Padres.
The the reason she was asked tospeak there was she had she
engaged with community in areally deep and meaningful way,
and she loved San diego lovesSan Diego, and San Diego loved
(03:31):
her back. And and she talked alittle bit about that.
Crystal Page (03:35):
And, also, just to be a little bit silly, I always
hear that Constance knows LadyGaga. How does she know Lady
Gaga?
Grant Oliphant (03:43):
Yeah. Poor Constance. She must get tired of
being asked this question, butyou would never know it from the
way calm way she answers it.Yeah. So she she has a long term
association with, helpingpresidents understand issues
related to the arts andhumanity.
She's on president Obama'sNational Endowment for the
(04:03):
Humanities Committee, and morerecently, she was appointed, to
the president's committee on thearts and humanities by president
Biden. Lady Gaga co chairs thatcommittee. That's how she knows
her, and what she shares with usis that Lady Gaga is quite
(04:24):
serious and studious about theresponsibilities of that
committee and her role on it.
Crystal Page (04:29):
And she prefers to be called Stephanie is what I'm
sure in that context. Yeah.Yeah. So, basically, what you're
saying is Constance is a bigdeal in education, arts, and
culture.
Grant Oliphant (04:39):
I am. Constance is, actually huge deal. Also
just a really nice andinteresting and thoughtful human
being. You know? There is athere is a quality in America
today that we desperately needmore of, and it's, it's that
quality of being able to talkabout anything and reason your
(05:03):
way through and think aboutwhat's good for other people,
without imposing your ownbeliefs.
And she has that capacity.You'll hear it in her voice. I
I'm I'm really eager to sharethis interview. Let's get to it.
Crystal Page (05:18):
Here we go.
Grant Oliphant (05:22):
Constance Carroll, I am so delighted to
have you on the program. Thankyou for being here.
Constance Carroll (05:28):
Well, thank you. It's my pleasure.
Grant Oliphant (05:29):
You know, I I first met you, I think, at a a
meeting I was invited to, and itwas a group of about 15 people
talking about issues importantto the region, and what
everybody thought needed tohappen, and I what I remember
about that conversation ismostly just general impressions,
(05:51):
but I remember you because yousat quietly through the whole
meeting, and then asked thezinger question that went right
to the heart of the of the issueevery was everyone was talking
about, and I thought, I have gotto meet this person. You and I,
as it turns out, have in commonYes. We do. When it comes to
(06:14):
Pittsburgh. Yes.
So I wanna start there Alright.If we can. Tell me a little bit
about, how you how you lived inPittsburgh and then how you came
to San Diego.
Constance Carroll (06:25):
Well, I was in Pittsburgh as an
undergraduate student, first atDuquesne University, and then I
did my master's and PhD at theUniversity of Pittsburgh. So,
I'm very familiar with the city.I lived in Squirrel Hill and,
enjoyed it. It surprised me,because I had not anticipated,
(06:48):
what a cultural, mecca it reallywas. And I loved the symphony.
I loved the, the art museums. Iloved everything about
Pittsburgh. And, it labors underthe the notion that it is not, a
a cultural culturally rich cityand it really is. And so, it's
(07:10):
one of the, I think, greatestcities, in the United States. I
really loved it.
Grant Oliphant (07:15):
And since moving from Pittsburgh to San Diego is
also my story, although decadesapart in terms of when we you
wised up earlier in terms ofmaking the move, but I'm gonna
get in trouble for that with myPittsburgh friends. But when
you, you've made the same move,were there any lessons you you
learned in making that move andcoming to San Diego?
Constance Carroll (07:37):
Well, I didn't come to San Diego from
Pittsburgh.
Grant Oliphant (07:39):
No.
Constance Carroll (07:40):
I I, I had a circuitous path, which went
through the University ofSouthern Maine first, then to,
Northern California, CentralCalifornia, and then, to San
Diego. Yes.
Grant Oliphant (07:54):
Yeah. Well, still, leaving out all that
middle stuff, were there anywere when you think back on your
experience there to here, werethere any takeaways for you?
Constance Carroll (08:05):
Yes. The the surprise for me in coming to San
Diego was how informal it is.Not only, in general terms but,
politically, everything is sortof, informal and operates on a
personal level. Whereas inPittsburgh, my impression was
(08:26):
that everything was quiteformal. The the biggest shock
for me, in coming to SouthernCalifornia was being called by
my first name.
Mhmm. Everyone, uses thatwhereas, in the east, as as you
know, Grant, everyone is muchmore formal. Right. It's,
Grant Oliphant (08:44):
You would have been doctor Carroll wherever
Constance Carroll (08:46):
Doctor Carroll or Dean Carroll or
President Carroll or whatever,but never they they rushed to
the first name. So, that and,and hugging. It's a huggy place.
Grant Oliphant (08:59):
I love that. Yeah. So, you know, I you had,
when you when you left thatcommunity, you were a student of
the classics. Yes. Kind oftraditionally schooled in that.
You had a PhD, and and, somewould have thought you were
(09:20):
destined therefore to teachclassics for the rest of your
life. Yes. You took a verydifferent path.
Constance Carroll (09:26):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (09:26):
And you got drawn into the community college
world, the continuing educationworld, and and we're gonna spend
a lot of time on that while wetalk because it's, I think
important in this age ofchallenged workforce and young
people facing decisions aboutwhat to do with their lives for
us to, I think, to, spend sometime on that. But how did you
(09:50):
make that transition? What wasit that drew you into that kind
of work?
Constance Carroll (09:56):
Well, as I like to tell people, I am a
classicist, and that's why Iwent into administration. Fair.
Grant Oliphant (10:02):
Okay. That's fair. Yeah.
Constance Carroll (10:04):
There, because it, there wasn't there
were not many opportunities, towork in the classics, as you may
know. Throughout the UnitedStates and the world, people
have been cutting back, onprograms like this. And so in
order to stay in education andclose to my field, I I did went
(10:27):
I did go into, administration.And and I'm I'm glad I did in
many ways because I found, a adifferent way of helping people.
My, original plan had been to,be a professor and teach
students and do research. Thatdid not work out even though
(10:48):
occasionally I still teach, but,I found another way of helping
people in in some moresignificant ways, and, by,
paving, pathways for them to,make, make achievements and the
like. So I I don't regret itbut, it it is not the path that
(11:10):
I had originally envisioned formyself.
Grant Oliphant (11:13):
It is, it is extraordinary when, when I look
at your career, how early youwere successful in terms of
that, in terms of your careerprogression. You became a
college president at a veryyoung age. You, then followed
(11:36):
through a sequence ofpresidencies and leadership
positions all the way through totoday when after having headed
San Diego's Community CollegeSystem, you, went in allegedly
retired, and then and then,which you did very badly,
(11:57):
by the way
Constance Carroll (11:58):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (11:58):
And then, to, you're currently serving on a
presidential commission on thearts and looking at the deep
issues about the role of cultureand art in our society for the
White House. Did you have anyhint of this when you were
younger that this is obviously,administration wasn't the path
(12:20):
that you wanted to followinitially, but did were you were
you always craving to be inleadership roles?
Constance Carroll (12:29):
No. I never was. I, this this was,
accidental, serendipitously,arranged by a sequence of events
that were very fortunate, forme. However, I will say that had
I been a professor or had I beenwhat I really wanted to be,
(12:51):
which was an architect early on,I would have not have had some
of the, opportunities that,opened up for me particularly
with the, presidentialcommissions and, the work, that
I do, statewide and nationally.So there there's always a silver
lining, if one lives, one's lifefully.
(13:14):
And, I'm very pleased with theway things have worked out, but
but they were not this is notwhat I had anticipated. When I
was younger, I was, enthralledwith playing the guitar and
singing every song that JoanBaez or a Buffy Sainte Marie
ever ever, wrote. And, I I was aa free spirit. And so, now I
(13:38):
find myself in a different, in adifferent role.
Grant Oliphant (13:42):
So When, one of the one of the ways in which you
failed at retirement, by theway, was to was to be in
involved with the CaliforniaCommunity College Baccalaureate
Association
Constance Carroll (13:56):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (13:57):
And you're still working with them today. And I'm
I'm curious why after retirementyou decided to take on yet
another round of work, and andcan you just say a little bit
more about what you're doingthere?
Constance Carroll (14:12):
Yes. Well, when I, left the University of
Pittsburgh and the University ofSouthern Maine, I discovered
community colleges and, foundthat they were remarkable
institutions, institutions thatreally focused on the student,
focused on community, focusedon, things that really made a
(14:35):
difference, for, for people.And, along the way, I discovered
that many states, in the union,were offering were allowing
their community colleges tooffer bachelor's degrees in
fields where the bachelor'sdegree is now required, but
where universities weren'treally, offering, those
(14:59):
programs. And so while I wasstill chancellor, I became
involved in a bill that wassponsored by, senator Marty
Block, who, had been presidentof the board of trustees of the
San Diego Community CollegeDistrict to establish a pilot
program, for community collegesto offer the bachelor's degree.
(15:21):
And, we worked very, very hardon that and, the bill passed in,
2014, allowing 15 communitycolleges in California to offer
bachelor's degrees verysuccessfully.
Then there, it was clear thatCalifornia could do much, much
more than just 15 degrees. Andso I continued to work with this
(15:44):
effort. And when I retired, Ifounded the, California
Community College BaccalaureateAssociation so that I could
spend my time focused on exactlythis. And and that's what I've
been doing. We now are up to, wehad another bill that passed in
2021, authored by, assemblymember member Jose Medina.
(16:09):
And, under that bill, allcommunity colleges in California
have the opportunity to offer,bachelor's degrees, but only in
workforce fields and only wherethere is no duplication with
what the 4 year, publicuniversities are offering. And
so with that bill, we are now upto, in California, 39, community
(16:33):
college bachelor's degrees andwith many more in the pipeline.
And so this is important work.
Grant Oliphant (16:39):
Yeah.
Constance Carroll (16:40):
It's work that, that changes, students'
lives. It gives them a wonderfulentree into gainful employment.
It benefits communities byproviding, workers for fields
that have a great deal of unmetneed. And, it's a wonderful,
wonderful we call it a movementbecause it is. We now are up to,
(17:05):
25 states in the union that dothis and I'm very, very proud
that through our efforts thatCalifornia has joined this, this
group.
Grant Oliphant (17:13):
Yeah. Well, it's, yet another tribute to
your leadership, and I I teaseyou about being bad at
retirement, but I am I'm also inawe of what you're managing to
accomplish, through your yourcontinuing dedication to to
furthering the mission of yourof your career. I wanna come
back to that in a moment, butfirst, I wanna help our
(17:36):
listeners understand maybe alittle bit more about why you do
this. And going back to youryouth, does this work ethic and
commitment to this type of workcome from anything around your
parents or your faith?
Constance Carroll (17:50):
Oh, absolutely. Particularly, my
mother was a remarkable woman.Her name was doctor Rebecca
Carroll, And, she, had quite a,a trajectory. Because when she
graduated from Morgan StateCollege, and was ready to go to
a graduate school, she wasrejected by the University of
(18:13):
Maryland, because the Universityof Maryland at the time was
still struggling withdesegregation Mhmm. And, refused
to admit any African Americanstudents, whether they refused
to admit any qualified AfricanAmerican students.
And after a tremendous courtbattle and upheaval, the
(18:40):
decision in Maryland was thatthe University of Maryland bore
responsibility for thesestudents, in this way. They had
to provide financially for themto attend, higher education, but
were not required to acceptthem, into the College Park
campus or any campus of theUniversity of Maryland.
Grant Oliphant (19:00):
Oh, wow.
Constance Carroll (19:00):
So my mother was, fortunate in that, she was
paid by the University ofMaryland, to attend the
University of Chicago Mhmm.Which, which was a boon because
it's not a university she couldever have hoped to afford.
But what what a sad, sadcommentary on this country that
(19:22):
it's better to spend, enormousamounts of money to educate
people elsewhere.
Grant Oliphant (19:29):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (19:29):
And so, from that point on, she determined
that she was going to get aneducation from the University of
Maryland. So in the sixties,she, enrolled in a program, at
College Park, which was possiblethen after all of the turmoil,
and became the first AfricanAmerican woman to earn a
(19:52):
doctorate a doctorate from theUniversity of Maryland. And she
was an inspiration to me, interms of, showing that, you can
you can prevail if you aretenacious and if you have a
strong vision and if you neverever give up. And so, that her
(20:14):
her her style, of life and herher tenacity and perseverance
were impactful for me. And, andso the she she was really the
the person who influenced me themost in that regard.
Grant Oliphant (20:29):
I don't think I I knew that story about your
mother, but thank you forsharing it, and in some ways
it's the perfect frame forunderstanding the career that
you then embarked upon, and whyyou would would spend that
career working with communitycolleges in the way that you
(20:50):
have. Can you say a little bitmore for our listeners about the
challenges that young people intoday's, work workforce face and
why community colleges areimportant today?
Constance Carroll (21:03):
Well, the the the first the first challenge
that young people face isfinancial. Mhmm. Universities
are very, very costly. And theprivate universities
particularly, they're excellentif if one can afford them. But
it's, to me, tragic to see,thousands of students graduating
(21:24):
from prestigious institutionssettled with unconscionable
levels of debt Mhmm.
When they could have the samequality education by going to a
community college first for thefreshman and sophomore years
where it's much, more, costeffective for them, where they
(21:46):
have full professors teachingthem high quality, education
and, in most cases, guaranteedtransfer then to the
universities of their of theirchoice. So community colleges,
provide that. They also provideworkforce training, that is of
great importance, in our, in ourculture, because, job most jobs,
(22:13):
today, require more than acollege, more than a, high
school diploma, and not alwaysas much as a bachelor's degree.
Mhmm. And so community collegesfill that gap as well, with the
exception that now, many of thesame fields are moving toward
(22:38):
bachelor's degree, requirementsinstead of associate degree
requirements.
Just as universities aremigrating more toward master's
degrees and doctoral degrees,there's a the great, inflation
of, of education has beenunderway for for some time. But
the role of community collegesis under underestimated,
(23:00):
understated, and Mhmm. Unknownby many people. And it's, a
great way for people to, tobegin their educational careers.
Grant Oliphant (23:10):
You met so many students during the years that
you were chancellor and, andinvolved in the community
college system. Are there arethere still folks who stand out
to you today that you met alongthe way?
Constance Carroll (23:26):
Yes. Some that I met along the way and
many that I met after the fact.Mhmm. For example, in San Diego,
2 of the the great graduates,from our community colleges in
the San Diego Community CollegeDistrict, whom we, often
reference are, Jim Sinegal, whofounded, Costco, who found
(23:48):
himself at San Diego CityCollege, and then the wonderful
actress, Annette Bening Mhmm.Who is a graduate of Mesa
College.
And she has, gone out of her wayto support the efforts of, of
Mesa College and, the San DiegoDistrict, in supporting programs
to provide free education forstudents and otherwise. And she
(24:13):
has a personal policy ofwhenever she's interviewed of
mentioning Mesa College becauseshe saw it as, as a life
changing, life changingexperience for her. So, you
know, we we meet people likethis all the time. There are
other, other people as as wellin who have graduated from other
(24:34):
colleges. The the the thetrouble, with community
colleges, grant is that manypeople, recognize the 4 year
institutions from which peoplehave graduated, but not the
community colleges.
And when one considers thatsomething like 2 thirds of the
students who graduate from theCal State University System are
(24:56):
community college transferstudents.
Grant Oliphant (24:59):
That high.
Constance Carroll (25:00):
Yes. And 1 third, of the graduates of the
University of California arecommunity college transfer
students. Then you can see theoverwhelming impact that these
colleges have. It's unfortunatethat it's an invisible, impact
to many people.
Grant Oliphant (25:18):
Right.
Constance Carroll (25:18):
But, they they play such an important
role, in, in the nation and inour state.
Grant Oliphant (25:25):
You know, I'm I'm I'm putting some of these
pieces together, and if if youin the community college system
can educate a Jim Senegal and anAnnette Benning, and you can
account for 2 thirds of thestudents graduating ultimately
from the Cal State System or or1 third from the UC System, and
(25:47):
you can educate them for afraction of the cost of those
systems. You can see why privatecolleges would be nervous about
the expansion of communitycolleges Oh, yes. Into the
baccalaureate space. You canalso see why society ultimately
shouldn't care if what we'reworried about is the kids and
(26:08):
the success of the kids. But howdo you help the the people who
are scared about the expandingrole of community colleges get
comfortable with it?
Constance Carroll (26:19):
Through what we do best, which is education.
Mhmm. We have a new bill inright now, which is requiring a
great deal of education, quote,unquote, from our, detractors
and, opponents. The, this is nota zero sum game.
Grant Oliphant (26:39):
Right.
Constance Carroll (26:40):
Right. And, educators need to understand
that. If, if a public universityis not offering a bachelor's
degree
Grant Oliphant (26:48):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (26:49):
In a field that is required now for,
employment, What why should itmatter whether or not a
community college enters thatniche?
Grant Oliphant (27:00):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (27:02):
You know, the decisions made in education
should be about need, studentneed. And in workforce
education, they should be aboutlabor opportunities and unmet
need. They should not be aboutturf Mhmm. And, and who's in
charge of what. We already have,worked to to avoid duplication
(27:24):
but, let me give you, anexample.
Mesa College was the 1stcommunity college in, California
to offer a bachelor's degree.That degree is in health
information management, which isthe digitization of, of, health
records, which is something thatthe Affordable Care Act and
(27:45):
others, require. That degree,health information management,
before Mesa offered it andbefore Shasta College offered it
the same degree, there was onlyone institution in the whole
state of California, only onethat offered that degree and
that's point that's, Loma LindaUniversity. Mhmm. So, should we
(28:11):
then say that, well, because oneinstitution in the state is
offering a degree that offerstremendous opportunities in,
workforce and employment that noone else should offer it, and
the my answer would be no.
One of the things I'veappreciated with the University
of California is how supportivethey have been of of of,
(28:35):
community colleges moving inthis direction. So, from my
standpoint, this is a win winproposition. It's not a zero
sum. It's not a competition.It's all about 2 things,
students what students need, andit's about local communities and
what local communities need andcan benefit from.
(28:57):
And if you use those two issuesas your, points of, of
departure, then everything fallsneatly into place.
Grant Oliphant (29:10):
A further illustration of that is I think
I have this right that, there'sa senate bill now that would
allow community colleges also topilot a program for a bachelor's
of science in nursing.
Constance Carroll (29:23):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (29:24):
And in that case, although there are,
institutions that already offerthat degree, there is a critical
shortage of nurses, and it'saffecting the entire health care
system. So how do you make thecase in in that situation?
Constance Carroll (29:44):
Yes. It's a excellent question, Grant. The,
the bill that, you mentioned isSenate Bill 895. The author is,
senator Richard Roth fromRiverside. As as you recall from
earlier in our conversation, Inoted that, one of the
(30:05):
agreements we had was that thecommunity colleges would not
duplicate
Grant Oliphant (30:10):
Right.
Constance Carroll (30:10):
Any bills that, any programs that the, at
the baccalaureate level that theuniversity public universities
were offering. This would be adeparture from that. Mhmm. And,
my organization, the CommunityCollege League of California and
others feel that the, shortageof nurses is so severe now Mhmm.
(30:36):
And so, hurtful to the health,and well-being of, of the
residents of our, communitiesthat we need to do something.
Mhmm. Now community collegeshave, for years, offered
associate degree, level nursingand that has always been the,
requirement for the, registerfor for being a registered
(31:00):
nurse, but that has changed too.That has now migrated to the
bachelor's level. Mhmm. Andhere's the problem, Grant.
Here's the problem. Last year,for example, the, the public
institutions, public,universities were only able to
accept 47% 47% of the, associatedegree nursing students who
(31:27):
graduated and were eligible.What happened to the rest of
them? The rest either left thestate or they went into private
institutions, in order to,become, bachelor's degree
nurses. Ask yourself, is thisgood state policy?
I would say, no. It is not. Thethe the nursing shortage is is
(31:53):
so severe, that we all need tojoin forces in order to meet it.
And if community colleges, canjoin, forces with the 4 year
institutions and, in this case,the private institutions, in
order to end the shortage, thenthat's what we should do. To me,
that's an ethical, imperative.
(32:14):
And so our bill is out and the,the knives are out at at the
same time. But we're hopefulbecause, senator Roth has the
wisdom of starting as a at a, asa pilot program, which is how we
began before that people willlearn from the pilot. The pilot
(32:35):
will be evaluated by thelegislative analyst office as
the previous one was, and wehope that then we will be able
to move forward with, expandingthe opportunities in a few
years.
Grant Oliphant (32:49):
What I what I hear you describing as you're
talking about it is a system ofeducation, that in which the
community college system adds tothe flexibility and agility and
resilience of the overalleducational system in
California. And seen that way,it becomes a lot harder to argue
(33:11):
against a a system that isclearly in demand and where
there is clear student need.Yes. Has the need for it grown
since the pandemic?
Constance Carroll (33:23):
Well, first, it fell. Mhmm. As you, you and
the listeners probably haveknown or read, community college
enrollments and universityenrollments took a tremendous
dive, during the pandemic. Butnow that we're coming out of it,
the, the need has grown becausethe interest in, the workforce
(33:46):
has grown. And as, people, beginto pursue new careers and the
like, the demand has hasincreased, just exponentially
Grant Oliphant (33:58):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (33:59):
Since the pandemic. And so this is a time
to educate America. And the bestway to educate America is to do
so practically. And the mostpractical way to educate America
is through the communitycolleges.
Grant Oliphant (34:11):
Right.
Constance Carroll (34:12):
So that that's where we find ourselves,
now.
Constance, how do we get, as asociety, get past some of the
old ideas around education andeducational attainment that get
in our way? And I'm thinking, Imean you know them better than I
do, but I'm thinking about, thereceived wisdom wisdom that has
(34:32):
existed in this society for 50years now probably that
everybody needs a bachelor'sdegree, that to be that's the
the hallmark of success in oursociety. Or the flip side,
version of that, usually said byvery wealthy people about other
people's children, that noteverybody needs a bachelor's
degree. How do we how do we cometo understand that there are
(34:58):
systems that can serve multiplelevels of education, and that we
need all of them, and it's okayto be successful at in in any
one of them? That's a verydifferent conversation than
we've had for decades.
Grant Oliphant (35:12):
How do we break through to that?
Constance Carroll (35:14):
Well, the the the first way is to stop
thinking of it as a one one sizefits all, proposition. Everybody
does not need a bachelor'sdegree, but everybody does need
some level of college. That'sjust, in order to be a a gainful
(35:36):
member of society. The the,emergence of, the sort of
computer age has changed a greatdeal so people, need, further
instruction than they couldpossibly get in high school. The
question is, based upon whatthey want to do specifically,
what kind of program they need.
(35:59):
If, many people, can, achieve,or fulfill their their goals
through apprenticeships, and,that has become a very popular
way of of going about things forsome people. Other people, want
certificates of, of completionfor various types of programs.
(36:23):
Others want an associate degree,such as in in nursing or some of
these other programs, and otherpeople will require a bachelor's
degree. If you want to be anurse in California, you need a
bachelor's degree now. And thereare many other programs, like
that.
And, so it's a matter of ofdeconstructing the the, the
(36:46):
programs themselves to see whoneeds a bachelor's degree, who
needs an associate degree, whoneeds an apprenticeship, and the
like, and to, be very specificin terms of how those students,
seek, seek their training.
Grant Oliphant (37:02):
I wanna talk for a moment about the the work
you're doing in the arts, andit's fun to talk about the
presidential commission thatyou're on that is headed, by or
co led by Lady Gaga. And, andyet your descriptions of that
panel are descriptions of thatpanel are that it's a very
serious panel doing very seriouswork, and and that sounds to as
(37:27):
though it's true of everybody onthere. Why is this important to
you, and what are you what areyou, hoping to accomplish
through that presidentialcommission?
Constance Carroll (37:37):
Well, there are actually 2, commissions. The
my first presidentialappointment was by, president
Obama to serve on the NationalHumanities Council, which is
affiliated with the NationalEndowment For the Humanities,
which is, basically, resemblesfoundation work. We receive
(37:58):
grants and grant proposals andfund them. The new commission is
interesting because it wasfounded in, 1982 by Ronald
Reagan who was concerned when hewas president, who was concerned
that, the arts particularly, butalso the humanities did not
receive the level of support inAmerica that they should.
(38:22):
And America is, is remiss insupporting its, its cultural
agencies as I think we all know.The the, the commission,
resigned and, the commissionersresigned in mass in 2017 in
protest of a previouspresident's policies. And,
(38:45):
president Biden reactivated, thethe group in, just a year ago.
And so, the, the first lady,Jill Biden, is the titular,
chair, and, Lady Gaga and BruceCohen are the, are the co
chairs, actual co chairs of thecommission. What we do is talk
(39:12):
about how to provide additionalsupport for the arts and
humanities through, making surethat the agencies involved are
work more closely together, suchas the Library of Congress, the
Smithsonian, the NationalEndowment For the Arts, the
(39:32):
National Endowment For theHumanities, and others.
We will also be exploringfundraising for the arts. And,
and then we will be, advisingand are advising the president
on policies. Policies pertainingto how the, administration,
since we are a president'scommittee, how the, to advise
(39:56):
the president on addressing suchthings as the rise of
antisemitism in America, how to,address the fact that during the
pandemic, theater attendancefell off by by over 20%, and how
to support local artists and,and people involved in the
(40:17):
humanities in many ways. So it'sit's exciting work. It's
meaningful work.
It's work I enjoy, and everyoneon the committee, is very
serious minded about it. Thequestion I get most is what is
Lady Gaga really like? And andthe answer is she's an extremely
intelligent, very, focused, veryserious minded individual who
(40:44):
takes all of this very, veryseriously. So, it's it's
exciting. I'm in my 1st yearstill and looking forward to
year 2.
Grant Oliphant (40:53):
Well, I I love the and and thank you for
sharing that. And I I love the,fact that the White House is
putting a focus on the arts inthe way they are, and and I do
think this is a propitiousmoment to be focusing on it and
caring about it. What made itimportant to you? The Humanities
(41:14):
Council, I can clearlyunderstand the connection with
education. How did you come tobe so interested in the arts,
would you say?
Constance Carroll (41:22):
Well, I'm interested in the arts because I
consider myself an, an artist.All my life, I have, been
involved in painting andsculpture. And I think I
mentioned earlier in theinterview that I was considering
architecture as a as a,potential field.
Grant Oliphant (41:39):
And you also mentioned guitar playing.
Constance Carroll (41:42):
Well, there my guitar playing is such that,
I consider it an art but otherpeople would not. They, and I'm
involved in music. I love theopera, for example. I served on
the opera board for many years.And, the arts are are are very
(42:03):
important to me.
They're import important to ourculture, in general.
Grant Oliphant (42:08):
And as you know, the foundation is active in the
area of the arts, and that's a abelief we also hold.
Constance Carroll (42:14):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (42:16):
And I I I just wanna acknowledge, we're very
lucky that you recently agreedto join our board, and we're
we're grateful to have you as a,given your civic leadership to
be, on our board.
Constance Carroll (42:30):
Well, it's my pleasure. The Prebys Foundation
is one of the best experiencesthat that that I have, had, in
my life. It's a wonderfulorganization.
Grant Oliphant: We will try to keep it that way. You (42:46):
undefined
know, I as I'm as I'm as we'retalking about that though, I'm
thinking that recently, you gavea very touching, insightful talk
at the memorial service forPeter Seidler, the former, owner
and president of the of the SanDiego Padres team. And you
(43:07):
talked about your the role heplayed, in in bringing civic
leadership to an issue you wereworking on. I'd love for you to
share that story and then Iwanna ask a follow-up question
on
Constance Carroll (43:21):
Sure. Peter Seidler was a extraordinary,
man, very dedicated, to thecommunity and very, very
practical. His work with,homeless, is well known. He
sometimes would be criticizedfor all of the homeless shelters
that he put up immediately, withpeople immediately saying, well,
(43:44):
it's more complex than that,Peter. And Peter would say,
well, tonight these people needa place to to sleep.
Mhmm. Very practical. When I wastalking with him once, we were
discussing, community collegesand students, and the fact that
most many students, could notafford shelter, could not afford
(44:06):
food, and could not afford to goto college. And that we had
started a program that wascalled the San Diego Promise,
which would make the, students'attendance in the community
college tuition free, and wouldalso provide support for books
and other other things that theymight need, he immediately
(44:29):
brightened up. And he said, thisis a great idea.
And the next day, the very nextday, he messengered over a
check. We we had not evenstarted the fundraising for the
program, but he was the veryfirst donor to the program. And
not only was he the first verygenerous donor to the program,
(44:51):
he, served on the, the promisecommittee, and provided a great
deal of advice, including usingthe owner's speech, as a, at the
owner's suite, excuse me, as asite for for fundraising that
went on. Just a very devoted,dedicated person who liked the
(45:14):
practical aspects of what wewere doing, because he knew that
students needed money, theyneeded support, they didn't need
great schemes and plans. Theythey they had the same kind of
practical needs that theunhoused population had.
And Peter was extraordinary. I Ihad tremendous, admiration for
(45:38):
both, him and Sheila, his wife,who was also, dedicated, his
brother Tom and others who werevery devoted to our community.
Grant Oliphant (45:48):
So my the reason well, I I I just appreciate that
story on so many levels andappreciated you sharing it, but
I I I also wonder a lot abouthow we preserve that commitment
to community and to civic lifethat you're describing in that
(46:09):
story. How do we have morepeople like, Peter Seidler? And
are you know, how do wecultivate more of that in San
Diego, even among people whoaren't wealthy? And I know
there's a lot of it. There's alot of it in America.
There's a lot of it in everycommunity, and there's certainly
a lot in San Diego I've youknow, we get to see it all the
(46:31):
time, And yet, in these verydivided troubled times, it feels
as though we need more. And, andand do you have any thoughts on
how we do that?
Constance Carroll (46:43):
Yes. I I think, one of the reasons I was
so and am so excited to be partof the Prebys Foundation is that
that is what the foundationdoes, in supporting people. The
the recent grants for thecommunity, emerging community
leaders and others to bringpeople forward, to celebrate
(47:05):
people, to show, role models andthe like, is is really the way
to go to go about that to to,and and to acquaint people with
what the needs are. And this iswhere I think the media, has a
great deal of challenges aheadof it. I, my church is in
(47:29):
Southeast San Diego. And many ofthe people in my church were
affected by the floods. Mhmm. Infact, Southeast San Diego was
devastated in some areas. Ithink there were over 1200
people who, lost their homes.
But if you talk with peopleusing the proverbial north of
(47:52):
the eight freeway, the responsewas, what what flood are you
talking about? Nobody knowsabout it. And, that's, the fault
of, of, insufficient mediacoverage.
Grant Oliphant (48:06):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (48:07):
We need to find ways to spread the word
about what people's needs are.And once people are aware of
that, they they're verygenerous. I mean, Americans and
San Diegans particularly are aremassively generous people if
they know, what thecircumstances are and if it is
(48:27):
made clear to them how they canbenefit or how they can provide
support. So, the PrebysFoundation celebrating people,
getting the word out, these arethe ways that we inspire people
because I think people, in thisregion naturally want to be
helpful.
Grant Oliphant (48:48):
Yeah. Well, from your lips to God's ears. I, I I
it certainly is consistent withwhat I've seen, and I think
you're right that we just wedon't, we don't tell these
stories enough so that peoplecan appreciate what others in
the community are experiencingthat is somewhat different from
(49:09):
themselves.
Constance Carroll (49:09):
Absolutely. And that that's always been the
role of the humanities to,expose people to what the human
experience actually is and toshare the narratives and stories
of, what that experience meansfor people. So
Grant Oliphant (49:25):
That's that old classic student, and you're
coming out again.
Constance Carroll (49:28):
Absolutely.
Grant Oliphant (49:30):
So let's finish up by let me just ask you,
because you you speak about SanDiego with great love and
affection.
Constance Carroll (49:38):
Oh, yes.
Grant Oliphant (49:39):
And I I would just love to hear before we wrap
up what you love about San Diegotoday, and what gives you
Crystal Page (49:46):
hope. Yes.
Constance Carroll (49:46):
I grew up, in Baltimore, Maryland in when it
was completely segregated. Mhmm.And that was an experience that
I will never forget. It was avery, defining experience to be
excluded, from almosteverything.
Grant Oliphant (50:04):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (50:06):
And it was a Baltimore was and to some extent
is still a black white city.
Grant Oliphant (50:12):
Mhmm.
Constance Carroll (50:13):
And I was tired of that. When I came to
San Diego, finally, I found thatthis is not a black or white
city. This is black, white,brown, Asian, everything. And
it's the, the true melting potnature of San Diego that I think
is attractive to me. As aresult, it is a very,
(50:35):
understanding and, gentle, placeto live.
And, it has great potentialstill that it needs to realize
because it's a young city inmany ways. But it is a city that
is, first and foremost, amulticultural environment. And
(50:56):
it's that multiculturalism that,is the most attractive feature,
for me to feel that I'm not on aside. Are you black or are you
white? I feel like I'm I'm partof a of a holistic, cultural
culturally rich, experience.
San Diego is maddening becauseit's, ill formed in some ways
(51:22):
and and, unsophisticated in someways, but it, is a city that
tries to do what's right. And,when I go to the Martin Luther
King, programs, there is nodominant race. It's everyone
together whether whether you'reFilipino or or Mexican or or,
(51:48):
black or what whatever, yourbackground, you're welcome and
you celebrate what, MartinLuther King described as the
beloved beloved community.
Grant Oliphant (52:00):
Right.
Constance Carroll (52:00):
And I think more than any organization in
America that the city of SanDiego, our region, is all about
becoming a beloved community.And, that that caught my heart
immediately, has my heart, andwill always claim it, in the
future.
Grant Oliphant (52:19):
That is so eloquently said, and it is the
perfect place for us to stop.Unfortunately, we've run out of
time, but I would only add, andyou're you're you're much too
modest to say this, but I knowof no better keeper of the
concept of beloved communitythan you are or have been
through your career.
Constance Carroll (52:38):
Oh, thank
Grant Oliphant (52:39):
you, great.
I wanna say thank you. And thankyou for the time today. This has
been a lovely conversation.
Constance Carroll (52:44):
Well, thank you very much.
Crystal Page (52:48):
What a great interview. I mean, doctor
Constance Carroll, I'll startthere and acknowledge that she
is an educated, hardworking gal.But I love that when you asked
her about her family, because Igot to sit in the room, she lit
up And talked about her mother'slove of education, how
(53:09):
hardworking she was, and howthat was really passed on to
her. You know?
I think we all have parents ormentors who shape who we are,
but it's a good reminder thatthese amazing great people, you
know, it's the origin of someonecaring about them and inspiring
them that makes the difference.
Grant Oliphant (53:24):
You know, since we're talking about education,
it makes sense that she wouldhave embodied the importance of
role models, you know, and theand the the inspiration she was
given around that, clearlyinfluenced her life, and she
absolutely lights up when shetalks about her and pride feels
(53:51):
like the wrong word becauseConstance is, in many ways, the
least prideful person despitebeing the most successful person
that I, you know, and that Iknow. She has that gift, but
but, yeah, there's the the prideof having come from a place
where she had people whoinspired her, and she followed a
(54:14):
path that she's proud of.
Crystal Page (54:15):
It's like, she's purpose filled. Right?
Grant Oliphant (54:18):
Like Yes. That's the that's what I'm struggling
with.
Crystal Page (54:20):
She's inherited all these things, and she's
giving it forward. You know?
Grant Oliphant (54:24):
Yeah. Exactly. I, I I think that her so much of
her story then flowing fromthat. In some ways, you know,
looking back, it's a surprise ifyou don't know her the full
story. Like, this this woman whois classically trained,
literally classically trained,by all all accounts, should have
(54:48):
probably followed a path intobeing a PhD in the classics and
working in some top tieruniversity somewhere, and
probably would've had a verysuccessful career in that and
been top of her profession.
She chose a different path. Shechose this path of going into
(55:10):
the community college system.And that begins to make more
sense if you understand thethrough line of what inspired
her, what she really wasmotivated by, what she cared
about, which is at its root, howwe educate young people to
prepare them for success inlife. Did you notice that?
Crystal Page (55:30):
A 100%. I think she's opened doors for not just
San Diegans, but people acrossthe country and made degrees and
educations more education moreaccessible to so many different
folks. So I think you're right.I she would have been an amazing
PhD teaching Latin somewhere orsomething, but I I I would bet
that her impact was even biggerbecause she chose this different
(55:53):
path.
Grant Oliphant (55:54):
And, And, of course, she does have a PhD. We
should
Crystal Page (55:56):
Oh, yeah. To clarify.
Grant Oliphant (55:57):
We are yeah. Just to clarify, we need to make
it. But, you know, I think Ithink what, Constance in her
quiet way, maybe it doesn't itit isn't obvious, but she's a
warrior. She's pretty fierce inher fight for the right of young
people to have an education thatis accessible and right sized
(56:18):
for them. So she did that whenshe was in her community college
roles, and she fought to makethose programs that that her,
colleges provided relevant forthe workforce so that her
students would graduate withusable skills and right size to
(56:39):
the circumstances so that, youknow, if they if they needed a
certification, if they neededyou know, a a particular type of
training, they would get it intheir path to getting their
associate's degree.
And I I found that ex I findthat extraordinary that she has
just really always kept her eyeon the ball of what, young
(57:03):
people and not so young peopleneed so that they can become
equipped to find a place intoday's economy.
Crystal Page (57:10):
And I think to the the, triple plus ad there is
that she's learning, like, hey.The community really still needs
more health care workers. Thecommunity colleges can offer
these services. Let's open thedoors to it. Right?
So I think she's pushing theboundaries of what's possible at
the community college level sothat we all have better health
(57:33):
practitioners and mechanics andall the things that that we need
here.
Grant Oliphant (57:36):
Yeah. Well, I I think that was another takeaway
for me. The the again, her focusis always on students and what
they need, and therefore, whatthe market needs from them
because they won't they won'tfind their path if the door is
slammed in their face. So she'slooking at, constantly mindful
(57:58):
of what the market is in need ofas well. And I think that's
what's led her to this fight forthe 4 year degrees.
It's to that community collegesare uniquely affordable places,
that can provide an fell animportant demand in the in the
world that we have today forcertain types of training and
(58:22):
certain type of skillpreparation, that isn't being
met today by the regular highered system. And she's trying to
fill those gaps, which are gapsthat hurt young people or people
retraining for future jobs inthe workforce. She's saying by
providing these 4 year degrees,we can help meet, for example,
(58:45):
the example you just gave, wecan meet the crisis and the
shortage of workforce in thehealth care arena by making it,
more avail that training moreavailable to more people.
Crystal Page (58:57):
And I think what's great about that in a I know a
lot of times we valuecollaboration and, of course,
there's always healthycompetition, but it doesn't take
away from the UCs or the stateschools. There's more than
enough demand. There's more thanenough students. Everything's
full anyway. So why not make itpossible for more youth and
(59:19):
students of any age to have theopportunity to give more and
learn more and provide more fortheir own families?
Grant Oliphant (59:25):
Exactly. You know, you, you mentioned early
on in our discussion about this,Peter Seidler. And I I think,
you know, what I wanna come backto is Constance does or and has
always done what you just saidin terms of focusing on the end
result, but she's done it in away that we all really need to
(59:50):
pay close attention to. She hasfought for the things that she
believes in. She's stillfighting for the things that she
believes in, but she's neverunmindful of the rest of the
community.
And she's always thinking abouthow does her organization nest
inside the system that she'spart of, and how does that nest
(01:00:12):
inside the larger system that isSan Diego? And who are potential
allies and fellow travelers whoshe can work with. There is, you
know, in these, divided timeswhere we see people always being
cast as pro or con, or left orright, or whatever, Constance
(01:00:33):
didn't get into that silliness.She got into how to build
coalitions of people who werelike minded and cared about the
same things. And, you know, yoursighting of Peter is a great
example of that.
It may seem unlikely that theowner of the San Diego Padres,
late owner of the San DiegoPadres, and this, woman titan of
(01:00:57):
the community college worldwould somehow have found, common
ground or common allegiance, butthey did. And they did because
there was that openness to thecountry, I think.
Crystal Page (01:01:19):
Well and and I think, again, it comes back to
that connection. Right? Thatvalue of, what matters
celebration of life for thelate, great owner of the Padres,
they talked about how Peterwould walk around and just have
conversations with people on thestreet at night or, when he and
Constance met. Right? They're ina room together just having this
(01:01:40):
conversation.
The next morning, she's got thischeck for a program she hasn't
even started. Yeah.
Grant Oliphant (01:01:45):
I love that.
Crystal Page (01:01:45):
And what's amazing about both of these individuals,
but particularly watching andwanting to model what Constance
doctor Constance Carroll bringsto the table is just focused on
the outcome, but gentle and firmin their commitment to the work.
And I just think it's somethingwe can all be inspired by and
continue to, learn from.
Grant Oliphant (01:02:06):
Crystal, I think that is a great place to end the
program today.
Crystal Page (01:02:10):
Thank you so much, Grant.
Grant Oliphant (01:02:12):
Thank you. This is a production of the Prebys
Foundation, hosted by GrantOliphant, and co hosted by
Crystal Page. The program is coproduced by Crystal Page and
Adam Greenfield, and it'sengineered by Adam Greenfield.
(01:02:32):
Production assistance isprovided by Tess Karesky. And
our new theme song is by misterLyrical Groove, a local San
Diego artist.
Download episodes at yourfavorite podcatcher or visit us
at stop and talk podcast.org. Ifyou like this show, and we
(01:02:53):
really hope you do, the best wayto support it is to share,
subscribe, and review ourpodcast. Thank you for your
support, your ideas, and most ofall, for listening. This program
has been recorded at the voiceof San Diego
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