September 15, 2023 • 40 mins
Ever wonder what it takes to manage a family business successfully? Our guest, Todd Miller, a seasoned entrepreneur from the residential roofing sector, offers a deep dive into how he's done it. He introduces us to the world of Isaiah Industries, a company his father started back in 1980 and he's been a part of since 1986. Todd’s story of stepping into his father's shoes after a stroke is inspiring and enlightening, revealing the intricacies of assigning the right roles to the right people for business excellence.
Switching gears, we tackle the challenges that even giants like Tesla face in the solar roof sector, emphasizing the undeniable importance of systemization in business. Todd draws from the philosophy of the E-Myth, reinforcing the need for inspiring stakeholders and maintaining consistency, akin to how McDonald's has sustained its brand despite high employee turnover rates. It's a conversation that broadens our understanding of business dynamics, particularly in the family-run context.
And let's not forget the art of sales. This episode delves into personal connection and the potency of robust information in closing a deal. We analyze why contractors may take the low bid and discuss the teachings of Jeb Blunt, an NLP practitioner, and Bill Gladwell, a scholar of Neuro-Linguistic Programming. From contractor presentation strategies to the essence of people buying from people, we expose the subtleties of the home services industry. So, are you ready to soak up some invaluable business insights from Todd Miller? Tune in!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Successful Life podcast.
I'm your host, Corey Barrier,and I'm here with my man, Todd
Miller.
Hey, Todd, how's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Corey, it's going great.
Thank you for having me on theshow.
I look forward to it.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yeah, man, good to see you.
You too.
So, todd, tell everybody alittle bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Absolutely so.
Our company is a company calledIsaiah Industries.
We're located in Ohio and we'rea manufacturer of what I call
specialty metal roofing.
Now, most people out there inthe audience have actually seen
some of our products a zilliontimes so over the years and the
company, by the way, was startedby my father back in 1980, and
(00:39):
I've been here full time since86.
But over the years we've beennational supplier for Pizza Hut
and Dairy Queen and IHOP and7-Eleven and Toys R Us and
Dunkin' Donuts.
So all those brightly coloredroofs that kind of dot the
highways probably weremanufactured by us or at least
involve our products in somefashion.
(00:59):
But kind of interesting.
So when I came into the businessfull time in 1986, we realized
that commercial business wasalways going to be prone to fads
and cycles, and so there were afew guys out there starting to
sell residential metal roofing,and I just went out and started
learning from those guys andlearning how they were doing,
(01:22):
what they were doing, what madethem successful, and then
basically tried to.
We developed products, weacquired some products in order
to support that residentialmarket, and today we are almost
entirely residential, most ofit's single family re-roofing.
Interesting thing on that,though, is that so the roofing
(01:43):
market in general?
In any given year, about 80% ofit is re-roofing, and even in a
good new construction year it'sonly about 20% new.
So, like a lot of folks in theroofing industry, we've kind of
tended to focus on there-roofing end of things and we
pick up some new constructionstuff as well.
(02:04):
But really, what we do is wework with contractors out there
and spend a lot of time trainingthem, teaching them how to do
everything, from generate a leadto do the in-home sales
presentations set theappointment first, sell the deal
, how to install the deal so wekind of offer a lot of turnkey
(02:24):
training in all those areas.
But been blessed over the years, worked with and had a chance
to learn from a lot of theleaders in the home improvement
business and feel very blessedby that, and it's loving what I
do.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So all right, that's fantastic.
Let me ask you it's going to goin a slightly different
direction.
So I didn't realize that yourdad started the business.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
He did.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So I've worked with a lot of family businesses where
there's a son, there's a dad,there's a brother, there's an
uncle whoever right?
But specifically when you'retalking about a father and son
duo, there can be some headbudding there right, absolutely,
(03:07):
absolutely.
Tell me what your experiencewas with that.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
You know.
So when I came into thebusiness, dad had a partner and
we had bought out his partner'sinterest in the business and at
that time we brought anothergentleman into the business who
had actually been a good friendof mine in college and he came
into the business and actuallyit worked really well for a lot
of years.
I'm not going to say that, youknow we didn't have our moments,
(03:33):
but for a lot of years when myfather was healthy unfortunately
he had some health problemsthat took him out of picture,
younger than it should have been, but when he was healthy, you
know, basically dad was themanufacturing and operations end
of things.
This other gentleman we broughtin was the finance end of
things and I was the marketingand sales end of things.
(03:54):
And it was just really coolbecause we all had a lot of
respect for each other withinour own buckets, we were all
opened ideas from each other butultimately gave each other the
autonomy and the responsibilityto work in those areas.
So a lot of times I hear aboutdynamics of family businesses
and crazy stuff going on.
A lot of times it's because yougot the same people vying for
(04:16):
the same areas of the businessand you know that can get really
messy really quick and you know, fortunately we never had that.
I didn't know squat aboutmanufacturing, I didn't know
squat about accounting, so Icouldn't begin to intervene in
those other areas of thebusiness.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
That was the best answer you could have given me,
and that's so smart becauseyou're right.
It feels like you know thesun's trying to take that spot.
Maybe the dad is trying to hangon a little bit longer than he
needs to.
Yeah, that can happen too, forsure, but that makes sense.
Staying in your own lane, theright people in the right seats,
the bus usually runs prettygood.
(04:54):
And that goes for anyorganization, not just a father
and son organization.
That goes for any organization.
And, quite frankly, culturallyit makes sense to have the right
people in the right seats,right yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Oh, absolutely, and you're right, it goes for any
type of organization, whetherit's a business or a nonprofit
or whatever.
I think it was Jim Collins whowrote a lot about you know, you
got to have the people in theright seats and all that and
headed in the same direction onthe bus, and no doubt about it.
You know, when I look at ourbusiness, you know some of the
more troubling times we have hadover the years and shoot, you
(05:32):
know we've been around oh gosh,closing on 45 years I guess.
So we've had our ups and downs,no one's going to kid anyone on
that.
But a lot of times it wasbecause we kind of lost focus.
Or, you know, maybe you know agood example.
I mean when dad he was only 68,when he had a pretty
debilitating stroke that reallylimited his ability to work in
(05:55):
the business and that was amajor disruption for us because
we had to replace that skill setand that knowledge that he had,
that being in his generation,he maybe hadn't always passed it
a log quite the way he shouldhave, so it left us a little bit
vulnerable there for a fewyears.
But, you know, had some goodteam members that stepped up and
(06:17):
stepped in as well also, so Ibet that was hard, but it was
hard on him it was.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
It had to be.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, that was a difficult thing and one of the
things that you know.
I watched that and I said man,I'm going to try to take care of
my health and make sure thatdoesn't happen.
I've done a really poor job oftaking care of my health, so I
don't know.
I hope it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
But you know, health is important but it's so easy to
put on the back burner.
Oh, absolutely, you know, Ilook everybody gets busy and you
know health relationships.
A lot of things get put on theback burner in the name of
growing a business and sometimesit feels like that's just
(07:03):
what's got to happen, but thenit kind of snowballs into.
It just keeps happening.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, you're right, absolutely right.
Yep, you kind of lead yourselfinto thinking, oh, that's this
way it has to be right now.
But then I'll catch up with theevent choice.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
It's hard because you hear people that talk about you
know if they could go back andchange their years with their
kids, they would.
But I'm not so sure about thatbecause you know you wouldn't be
where you are if you had to goback and stop doing what you did
.
Right, I don't know.
(07:39):
I don't know.
It's a tough one because I'mnot to that point of looking
back and saying I wish I wouldhave done X, y and Z.
But I'm kind of in the middleof doing X, y and Z and who
knows what I?
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I hear a quick story on that.
So my wife and I just have onechild.
We have a son.
He's 25 years old.
So when he was growing up, youknow, I was kind of I was having
to travel a lot for work, Imean a lot.
And one of the things I starteddoing when he was young I
thought at the time this waskind of cool was, you know, I'd
(08:14):
go to a different city, I'd buyhim a key chain and the key
chain would maybe have a pictureof something that city was
known for.
And then all of a sudden itdawned on me.
Well, someday all he's going tohave to remember is these
indications that I wasn't homeall the time because I was out
buying key chains I guess Idon't know and I realized
(08:34):
probably was not the best idea.
So kind of interesting.
He moved out a couple of yearsago, after graduating from
college.
I think the key chains arestill at my house, so that's
okay, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So is your son, so is he in the business as well.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
He is not.
He is a computer engineer andvery much loves what he does on
that end of things.
And at this point at least he'snot in the business.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Now did you want him to kind of follow your footsteps
?
I mean, I guess every day Ikind of want that.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
But yeah, what was your thought?
You know, I think you do hearthat a lot of parents you know,
oh gosh, I'd love my kid to dothat.
I never really had that feeling.
I always just wanted him to be.
You know what he was gifted andcalled to be, and it was always
kind of apparent he kind ofwalked more in his mother's
shadow.
She had been a computerprogrammer and very skilled and
(09:26):
gifted in the sciences and mathand all that type of stuff, and
so it was kind of apparent evenat a pretty young age that was
going to be his direction,rather than being a sales and
marketing guy out running aroundthe country schlepping metal
roofing the rest of his life.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
So you, so you provide.
Now, when you say metal roofing, do you go out?
Cause I know that you knowwe've mentioned a mutual friend
in that that I've done some workwith in the AI space and
automation space, but so so he'sgot a sheet metal company that
(10:02):
and he goes out and it's custom.
So is that the same thing thatyou're talking about here?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Ours is a little bit different.
So actually we call ours roofin a box.
So normally, you know, mostmetal roofing out there is
vertical seam it's calledstanding seam or some variant of
that and those panels have tobe run or cut or produced
specifically for every jobbecause they go from the top of
(10:29):
the roof down to the bottom andso every job is different.
Our products are very different.
So we're doing metal shingleproducts that are modular panels
, no custom panels or anything.
We've got about a dozendifferent product designs that
look like cedar, shake or slateor asphalt shingles or tile and
(10:50):
it literally roof in a box.
They get packed in corrugatedboxes and palletized and stretch
, wrapped and sent all over tojob sites or wherever it may be,
and so we kind of take out thatnecessity, for you know having
to bring a machine to the jobsite or you know running the
wrist, a dog gone, and I missedthat measurement by three inches
(11:13):
and all my panels are too short.
Yeah, ours really install verysimilar to asphalt shingles, but
they're actually metal shingles.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Okay.
So I don't know if I've everseen solar panels on a metal
shingle roof, but maybe Are you.
Do you do they put solar onmetal?
I guess they do.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think that'sinteresting.
So kind of the someone who goesout and wants to buy a metal
roof is usually thinking aboutyou know, I'd like something
that's going to be a goodlong-term investment, I'd like
something that's ultimatelygoing to reduce the operating
cost of my home.
Someone who buys solar isthinking those exact same things
(11:54):
and they want to do somethinggood for the environment.
So very similar goals betweenthe metal roof customer and the
solar customer.
So we do regularly see pastcustomers of ours adding solar
later.
There are some things that ifsomeone tells the contractor
right from the beginning youknow, I kind of dream of having
solar someday there are somethings that can be done at that
(12:16):
time to make the metal roofinstallation more solar ready.
But yeah, no, there'sabsolutely a lot of crossover
there and one of the things thatwe're working on right now is
an integrated solar solution.
So you know you've got yourmetal shingle roof and then
you've got some sort of solarshingle that's directly
(12:38):
integrated into it and it'sreally kind of what Tesla has
done with their solar glass roof, but ours would be a little bit
different take, but similar tothat man.
There's other companies workingon such things too.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Sure, okay, yeah, that makes sense.
The Tesla roof did not do greatwhen they first started, right?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
They never seemed to hit the numbers that you know.
They were promisingshareholders and everything.
Yeah, I do think it's a goodsystem.
I think what surprised them wasonce they started producing a
solar roof.
I think they kind of went intoit, maybe just indications from
things that you know Elon wassaying and they were telling
(13:18):
shareholders.
They went into thinking, well,this is just an extension of our
solar business, which wasalready in existence with
SolarCity.
But I think what they kind ofmaybe missed was they were now
in the roofing industry and youknow that's an entirely
different ball wax and I thinkit's taken them a while to kind
of ramp up their systems to besuccessful in the roofing
(13:42):
industry.
I mean one of the things youknow you put traditional solar
panels on the house and you knowyou got the panels are all the
same size, you just got to findthe place they're going to fit
and you fasten them on.
You know you're doing a metal,doing a roof, and every roof is
different.
You know, you have a valley hereand a hip there, and now you
got a chimney right in themiddle the whole thing, and now
(14:03):
you got, you know, all thesestink pipes coming up through
and all this stuff.
So that was what I think kindof presented.
A challenge for them wasrealizing OK, we're in the
roofing industry and we got todevelop things that are about
roofing, not just about solar.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, it makes total sense.
Ok, so let's talk about for asecond, you know, let's go into
more about how you run yourcompany Inside the people that
you work with your employees.
(14:39):
What is your take on how thatwhole process works?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, good question.
And so there's a book out thereand you've probably heard of it
, maybe you've read it calledthe E-Myth.
And the E-Myth was written by aguy quite a number of years ago
by name of Michael Gerber, andMichael Gerber still alive,
still does consulting, has aconsulting company out in North
(15:05):
Bay Area, california.
But you know what his wholetheory of the E-Myth was.
Oftentimes someone will start abusiness.
You know, okay, I'veapprenticed, I've learned to be
a good plumber, so I'm going tonow I've got some bucks and I've
got a nicer truck, I'm going tostart a plumbing business.
But in reality they were stilla plumber, they were still a
(15:29):
hands-on technician.
They were not a business owner.
And what the E-Myth teachescompanies is how to build
systems in your business so thatbusiness is not just all
dependent upon you doingeverything.
And that's what wouldoftentimes happen to that
technician who started abusiness.
Now, suddenly he had theresponsibility of a business
(15:52):
plus doing everything in it,always putting out fires, and
really couldn't develop thatsystemization.
So his business ran on systems.
Great example of this.
So McDonald's not the best foodin the world, but one thing I
can tell you about McDonald's ifI mentioned a McDonald's French
fry or a McDonald's quarterpounder, you can automatically
(16:14):
taste it.
You know exactly what that'sgoing to taste like, no matter
what McDonald's you go to in theentire country or even beyond.
And yet McDonald's has thehighest turnover rate of
employees of any business in thecountry.
The number and I won't evenhazard the guess right now, I
heard it once it was absolutelystaggering.
(16:35):
I mean, I think it wasliterally their average employee
is only there about two and ahalf months.
And so how do you do that?
How do you develop that kind ofconsistency and that kind of
recognition when you'reconstantly dealing with
turnovers?
And you do it throughsystemization and teaching
people those systems and holdingthem accountable to those
(16:57):
systems.
So that's what the emith is allabout, is how do you do that in
your business?
That's what Michael Gerber andhis consulting company do.
So I hit a point a number ofyears ago where I was really
frustrated in business and justalways felt like you know, there
were a couple of us Dad, myselfand this other guy who's still
(17:18):
here, my best friend but anyway,we were always just putting up
fires and we never had the timeto try to grow the company or
scale the company as they saythese days when the heck that
word came from, I don't know.
But anyway, we never had thattime because we were always so
tied up in the business.
So I turned to the emith, hisconsulting group, and became a
(17:40):
client.
And you know what he does is heteaches companies how to build
those systems into theirbusiness.
You know how to document actionplans, how to document job
responsibilities, all that typeof stuff.
And you know, over the yearsI've done some, you know,
training and working with othercompanies, contractors in
particular.
In fact Michael even wrote abook called the emith for
(18:02):
contractors because he realizedthat contractors needed this so
badly.
Now I will say, you know, overthe years, we are not as
systematized now as I wish wewere.
We are blessed.
We have a very loyal workforce,our average tenure across the
companies pushing out toward 20years.
So we just have a very trainedgroup of folks.
(18:24):
But if I ever wanted through aperiod where we were having, you
know, a lot of growth or a lotof new folks, we would
definitely have to step up thesystemization again.
But just a great book for anycontractor and then to hold
yourself accountable, to makesure you actually do those stuff
in your business rather thanjust read about and say, oh,
that's nice, anyway, good stuff.
(18:46):
So, yeah, I mean that's still.
My philosophy, though, in thebusiness is, you know, you got
to build systems into it, yougot to get people well trained
and you got to keep peopleinspired.
I think that's another thingthat some business owners kind
of miss out on, especially whenwe get so busy doing it.
We kind of miss out on keepingour stakeholders inspired.
(19:07):
We got to make sure that youknow everyone who is involved
with the business, whether it'steam members, employees,
customers, suppliers.
You know if you're in anonprofit, you got to have your
volunteer base, all you knowinspired, and you just do that
through a lot of communicationand a lot of congratulations and
(19:29):
kudos and recognition of thegreat stuff folks are doing and,
you know, constantly buildingthat up.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
So a great answer.
So how do you inspire whenyou're going through a rough
time?
Because that's hard, right,it's hard to be that guy when
things ultimately feel like theycould be going sideways.
And maybe you haven'texperienced that, but I'm sure
there's been a time that,Absolutely Like your dad, when
(19:57):
your dad had his accident thathad to be hard to be that leader
that you know, that positiveinfluence, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, it's a challenge.
So so a number of years ago, athing called open book
management became very popularin businesses, you know, where
you opened up all your books toyour team members and let them
see what was going on.
And I had a good friend who didthat with his business, and you
know he's telling oh I'm soexcited, this is great.
People are responding.
Well, you know, I saw him abouta year and a half later and the
(20:30):
economy had taken a turn southand I saw how's the open book
thing going and I mean Iseriously wanted to know I
wasn't trying to be cynical oranything and he said not so good
.
He said it was great when thebusiness was performing, but as
soon as the business wasn'tperforming and people were
seeing that, rather than beinspired to help the business,
(20:51):
they started jumping ship and Ilost a lot of key people and
people are down.
You know the business failed acouple years later.
It didn't make it through it.
Now, would it have beendifferent had he not done open
book management?
I don't know, it may have beenso.
So it's a great question though.
I mean, when you are goingthrough a down cycle, how do you
keep people inspired.
You know I don't think it comesdown to.
(21:13):
You got to look for the goodstuff people are doing and you
got to recognize it.
You know you can't sugarcoatthe fact that we got a challenge
ahead of us.
We're capable of this challenge.
We can pull together and we canmake it happen.
We can make it through whateverthis is.
But it's still the old sayinghow do you eat an elephant
Little bites by the time.
(21:34):
So you're still doing the samething of recognizing the good
performance of your team membersand giving them kudos of that
and just doing what you got todo, rebuilding one step at a
time.
But you got to constantly paintthat vision that better days
are ahead.
That's not always going to belike this.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Well, I think, setting expectations with the
employees let's just take yourguide, for example and having
that open book policy, if youset expectations and you build
those relationships and youbuild the trust in those
relationships, maybe that timewouldn't have been so rough and
maybe people would have pulledtogether.
(22:17):
I don't know, I don't even knowthe guy you're talking about.
Right, right, it seems like theway you just explained it.
If you do have thoserelationships, I'm hoping that
they would pull for you duringthose times, because you've been
there in the past in the good,but who knows?
I mean, it's hard to say.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, and of course sometimes too when your business
is going through tough times.
Every business is going throughtough times, so you can kind of
relate to that a little bitwith everybody too.
But one of the things I alwayshave is you got to have a little
change in people's pockets.
You got to have them knowingthat, hey, you've been there for
them in the past and that'sgoing to help them want to be
(22:57):
there for you in the future ifyou need them, when you need
them.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, 100%.
So how do you go about?
Do you have that kind of thatopen book?
Because it does help.
I'll say this I know that itdoes help when you've got, for
example, I run into contractorsall the time that don't have
that policy, and so thetechnicians see these $25,000
(23:24):
systems go out and they thinkthe owner is taking home 24 and
a half of that.
And the truth of the matter is,if they really knew what the
owner was taking home, they'dprobably be a little bit more
forgiving as far as how they getpaid and so on and so forth.
But money, it's not alwaysabout the money.
So here's the real question howdo you?
(23:46):
Because a lot of people thinkmoney is how you inspire people.
That is important, don't get mewrong, but it's not the only
way, because I think that a lotof people these days are they
would rather work for somebodythey can trust and that they can
believe in than they would takeanother dollar or two an hour.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Sure, yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that
people well, so we went througha little period there coming out
of COVID where I don't rememberwhat they called it.
They came up with fancy namesfor everything, but everyone was
kind of jump in ship for anextra dollar or extra $2.
(24:29):
And that was hard on a lot ofbusinesses that really had a
loyal workforce.
And now of a sudden they didhave team members being tempted
away over fairly small amounts,but yet the team member felt
like, well, everyone else isdoing it.
So I guess that's what I needto be doing also, and you get
this, what they call it FOMO,this fear of missing out.
(24:51):
If I don't do it, this might bemy only opportunity.
We do not.
So back to your question.
We do not practice open bookmanagement as it used to be
known.
Now, that said, what I've kindof learned is you got a few key
people in your company that areknowledgeable and trusted and
(25:13):
respected.
Sometimes you can give thosefolks some information and trust
that okay, when they carry thisinformation out around the
water cooler or the coffee pot,it's going to be carried out
accurately, and so sometimes youcan be a little selective and
float some trial balloons outthere, whatever, if you will to
(25:34):
a few folks to help themunderstand a little bit about
the financial dynamics of thecompany.
Because you're actually right,and I know that in our company
and I have to think probably inevery company, you know you've
got this deal of the last fewyears since COVID.
You know everything is 30%, 35%, 40% more than it used to be,
(25:58):
and so people naturally assume,well, someone's making that
money.
But in reality I think mostcompanies will tell you my
margin is actually shrunk, inthat I mean I had to pass
through what I could based uponthe increases in our raw
material costs and our laborcosts, and the reality is our
margin shrunk.
And so you know, sometimes yougo to a few trusted people in
(26:20):
your company, you let them knowthat and you let them kind of
carry the message.
Well, you know, don't get theseguys a hard time.
There may be more to the storythat you don't understand here,
have you?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
ever had one of those key people that you did trust,
that you did.
You know the had informationthat otherwise you wouldn't want
anybody else to know that didmake a bad decision.
You don't have to tell me theirname, obviously I'm not looking
for that, but I just wonderbecause you know I'm a very
trusting person.
If somebody tells me they'regonna do something, I just
(26:50):
believe you're gonna do it,because if I tell you I'm gonna
do something, I go do it, butnot everybody's like that.
So have you ever had anybodyjust completely break your trust
in that way?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, I really I can imagine the pain of that and
certainly I've heard stories ofthat.
I can't recall myselfpersonally having gone through
that.
Fortunately, yeah, I don'trecall going through it.
But yeah, that's got to betough.
If that happens, it has toaffect you emotionally and you
know the end result is nowthere's disinformation out there
that you got to change, sothat's tough too.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, that's good.
That's good news that you'venever had that happen.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I mean, I didn't anticipate that because I'll
probably think of something atdinner tonight, but right off
hand, nothing's coming to mind.
Court.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Well, it must not have been big enough for you to
remember which is great.
You know so, especially in this.
You know, in our industry, andnot not, obviously not from a
manufacturer's standpoint.
But you know, I'll tell you astory that we went in a guy's
house I was training a companylast week and we walked into the
house and the guy said man, hesaid a roofer just tried to rip
(27:57):
me off.
He tried to charge me $16,000for a roof.
And I went, got another quoteand it was 7000.
Man, that's a hard pill toswallow when you've got up, when
you're trying to sell this guy.
You know an HVAC unit and soyou know we hear that a lot of
that in the solar industry.
And I think and this is notknocking roofers or solar people
(28:20):
, maybe solar people, I don'tknow but it feels like these.
It feels like there's so muchopportunity.
Why would you not just do itthe right way, like, why would
you take them?
And here's why I have a theoryon that with solar is that these
guys, a lot of these guys noregulation.
So I think they get these, youknow a million or two million or
(28:42):
whatever in the bank and theysee that money and they're like,
well, I could just take thisand run.
It's more money than I've everseen in my life.
And that's what happens.
We hear this a lot.
I hear this a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
You know, one of the things that makes me think a
little bit about.
You know, and this is the wholeprocess of selling, and you
know, justifying value,delivering value, all that type
of stuff.
And you know, I think all of usare going to agree that you
know, usually taking that lowbid the most dangerous thing you
can do.
You know, it's kind ofinteresting.
(29:19):
I had a homeowner asking me theother day.
She said you know, contractorstell me it's going to take them
six weeks to get out here andshe said is that bad thing?
And I said well, I don't thinkthat's a bad thing.
I said if the guy told you hecould be there this afternoon,
that's probably a bad thing.
But well, though, that sixweeks is a bad thing.
But oh gosh, corey, I kind offorgot my train of thought there
(29:44):
?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Isn't that embarrassing?
No, not at all.
I do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I did think of it again.
Can we continue?
Go for it?
Yeah, okay.
So another author I enjoy.
You've probably followed to hisguy by name of Jeb Blunt.
It's spelled B-L-O-U-N-T, so itlooks like Blunt, but he
pronounced this at Blunt, andI've had Jeb speak at a couple
of events we've had over theyears.
Super nice guy, very smart.
(30:08):
One of his first books wascalled People Buy you, and you
know it was really about that.
People buy from a person moreso than they buy a thing.
And a quick story for me onthat.
I remember my wife and I weremuch younger we were probably
late 20s and we were on a carlot looking at a beautiful Jeep
(30:34):
Grand Cherokee I had beenadmiring for quite a while and
it was an expensive car.
It was an expensive car to now,but it was an expensive car.
And you know the salesman comesout and immediately is trying
to qualify me, trying to talk meinto a cheaper vehicle, all
this type of stuff, withoutreally getting to know me, and
(30:57):
you know.
And so I quickly decided Ican't work with this guy.
So you know we ended up leavingafter a while, and his name was
Scoop too.
That probably didn't work inhis favor either, but anyway.
So we went to another Jeepdealer about 45 s away and said
hey, the car I want is on thatlot down there.
(31:18):
We're going to buy it.
You got to help me get it.
And he said well, actually wecan't really deal with those
people either, but I got anotherdealer with the same vehicle
and I'll get it from him for you.
And so you know it really was,we buy from people, and so one
of the things that I have taughtfor a number of years and I
learned this from a friend ofmine by the name of Bill
(31:39):
Gladwell, who's a student of NLP, neuro Linguistic Programming
and what Bill teaches is youknow, a lot of times a
contractor goes into a house andhis first pitch really is more
on his company how great we are,here's why you should do
(32:00):
business with us all that typeof stuff and you know, then
he'll probably lead into someform of needs analysis and a
presentation.
Well, what Bill taught me andwhat I've taught people ever
since is you want to close withyour company.
You don't want to open withyour company.
So you leave the informationabout your company, the
information about yourinstallers, and I encourage
(32:24):
photos and names and families,anything you can do to make
everyone very personal and youknow parts of the community.
You close with that.
You don't open with it, becausethat is your most powerful
stuff.
That's what people are going tobuy, is they're going to buy
the people in your company?
They can get that product fromanybody else, but they can't get
(32:45):
your people from anybody butyou, and so that's what you.
That's your most powerful stuffthat you want to close with,
and I think a lot of contractorsget that backwards 100% they do
.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
I'm actually an NLP practitioner.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Are you really?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Oh yeah, I in fact.
It doesn't matter who it was,but I just had a company redo
their presentation because thefirst thing they talked about
was always been in business foryou know, 40 years.
The next slide was about thesalesman in his family and I'm
like God bless, like y'all arekilling me here, like you
haven't done anything to earnthat business yet Nothing, and I
(33:23):
said, you know they don'treally care about you until they
know that you care about them,and that's just the truth and
they may not even care then.
But depending on who you'redealing with, people don't.
People want to know what youcan do for them, whether that's
the system or a new roof orwhether that's whatever.
They want to know how much itis.
(33:43):
They want to know what you cando for them, but they want to
feel special, and telling themabout your family as the
salesperson or the companydoesn't make anybody feel warm
and fuzzy.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
No, no, no, not at that point.
You know doing it before youclose, and just you know you do
it so that you show that, hey,I'm not going to run away, I'm,
as part of this community, asyou are, and that gives them
that warm and fuzzy, that, ok,these are the guys I want to do
business with.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
That's right.
Yeah, it's just so funny.
You brought up NLP, so a lot ofpeople would a lot of people
repel from that because theythink it's some kind of slick.
But it's not.
It's just great questionsAsking great questions.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
You know, human science.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, 100%.
So I thought there was one morething I had for you.
I'm trying to remember what itwas.
I thought about it when youblanked out and now I'm lanking
out.
Yeah, I don't remember what itwas now, but so you have a
podcast, right.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I do, yeah, and you're going to be on it.
We got a recording date setwith you here in a few weeks, so
it's construction-disruptioncom.
Construction disruption is thename of the show and we've been
at it a couple of years and whatwe really try to do.
So really, the reason westarted the podcast was, you
know, we looked at our industryand we didn't see a lot of new,
(35:07):
younger folks coming into theindustry and that kind of
troubled us.
So we wanted to really capture,hey, what are the?
Where's our industry going,what are the new things coming
up?
And, as we say, we're kind ofuncovering the future of design,
building and remodeling.
And so we had we've had gueststhat talk about tech, talk about
(35:28):
products, talk about systems,services, things like offsite
construction and really tryingto pull in younger folks to our
industry and say, hey, here arethe opportunities for you out
there, here, here are the areasthat are going to be growing in
coming years.
And but I got to tell you it'slike anything that we do or any
(35:51):
sort of ministry or service youdo, the benefit has been to me.
I have learned so much from ourguests.
It's just been a great time and, you know, I hope that someone
takes time to listen.
They learned too, but I justcan't believe how much I've
learned about the industrythrough it.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
That's a fascinating point.
Just like you know, here I getI've been learning from you for
the last 45 minutes about thingsthat I just didn't necessarily,
some things I just didn't know.
You know, I just you know, andso it is a one-on-one educate
selfishly, it's a one-on-oneeducation for me.
And you know, I think, but a lotof people learn from.
(36:30):
I think this is the newplatform.
I think podcasting is.
I mean, that's how I learnabout.
If I'm look, if I'm going to goshop somebody, if I'm going to
shop a customer, I'm going tolisten to their podcasts because
they'll tell me everything thatthey're not doing right.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yep, it's amazing yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
And it's a great marketing tool.
So, Todd, I really appreciateyou coming on.
This has been such a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
It's been great fun.
Thank you, corey and I I lookforward to learning a lot more
from you here in a couple ofweeks when we get together again
on construction disruption.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Absolutely.
Where can people find you, Todd?
Where would you like for themto find you, you know?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I'm on LinkedIn, Todd Miller Metal Roofing, You'll
find me.
I also have a website atasktodmillercom where I try to
provide a lot of education andsupport for contractors and
property owners, and people caneasily email me at Todd at
asktodmillercom.
And, of course, our business isisaiainustries
(37:29):
isaiainustriescom and they cansee lots of pretty pictures of
metal roofs there.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Perfect.
I appreciate you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
I appreciate you.
Thank you, it's been a greattime.
Thank you, ford.
Welcome to the Successful Life podcast.
I'm your host, Corey Barrier,and I'm here with my man, Todd
Miller.
Hey, Todd, how's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Corey, it's going great.
Thank you for having me on theshow.
I look forward to it.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yeah, man, good to see you.
You too.
So, todd, tell everybody alittle bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Absolutely so.
Our company is a company calledIsaiah Industries.
We're located in Ohio and we'rea manufacturer of what I call
specialty metal roofing.
Now, most people out there inthe audience have actually seen
some of our products a zilliontimes so over the years and the
company, by the way, was startedby my father back in 1980, and
(00:39):
I've been here full time since86.
But over the years we've beennational supplier for Pizza Hut
and Dairy Queen and IHOP and7-Eleven and Toys R Us and
Dunkin' Donuts.
So all those brightly coloredroofs that kind of dot the
highways probably weremanufactured by us or at least
involve our products in somefashion.
(00:59):
But kind of interesting.
So when I came into the businessfull time in 1986, we realized
that commercial business wasalways going to be prone to fads
and cycles, and so there were afew guys out there starting to
sell residential metal roofing,and I just went out and started
learning from those guys andlearning how they were doing,
(01:22):
what they were doing, what madethem successful, and then
basically tried to.
We developed products, weacquired some products in order
to support that residentialmarket, and today we are almost
entirely residential, most ofit's single family re-roofing.
Interesting thing on that,though, is that so the roofing
(01:43):
market in general?
In any given year, about 80% ofit is re-roofing, and even in a
good new construction year it'sonly about 20% new.
So, like a lot of folks in theroofing industry, we've kind of
tended to focus on there-roofing end of things and we
pick up some new constructionstuff as well.
(02:04):
But really, what we do is wework with contractors out there
and spend a lot of time trainingthem, teaching them how to do
everything, from generate a leadto do the in-home sales
presentations set theappointment first, sell the deal
, how to install the deal so wekind of offer a lot of turnkey
(02:24):
training in all those areas.
But been blessed over the years, worked with and had a chance
to learn from a lot of theleaders in the home improvement
business and feel very blessedby that, and it's loving what I
do.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So all right, that's fantastic.
Let me ask you it's going to goin a slightly different
direction.
So I didn't realize that yourdad started the business.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
He did.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So I've worked with a lot of family businesses where
there's a son, there's a dad,there's a brother, there's an
uncle whoever right?
But specifically when you'retalking about a father and son
duo, there can be some headbudding there right, absolutely,
(03:07):
absolutely.
Tell me what your experiencewas with that.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
You know.
So when I came into thebusiness, dad had a partner and
we had bought out his partner'sinterest in the business and at
that time we brought anothergentleman into the business who
had actually been a good friendof mine in college and he came
into the business and actuallyit worked really well for a lot
of years.
I'm not going to say that, youknow we didn't have our moments,
(03:33):
but for a lot of years when myfather was healthy unfortunately
he had some health problemsthat took him out of picture,
younger than it should have been, but when he was healthy, you
know, basically dad was themanufacturing and operations end
of things.
This other gentleman we broughtin was the finance end of
things and I was the marketingand sales end of things.
(03:54):
And it was just really coolbecause we all had a lot of
respect for each other withinour own buckets, we were all
opened ideas from each other butultimately gave each other the
autonomy and the responsibilityto work in those areas.
So a lot of times I hear aboutdynamics of family businesses
and crazy stuff going on.
A lot of times it's because yougot the same people vying for
(04:16):
the same areas of the businessand you know that can get really
messy really quick and you know, fortunately we never had that.
I didn't know squat aboutmanufacturing, I didn't know
squat about accounting, so Icouldn't begin to intervene in
those other areas of thebusiness.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
That was the best answer you could have given me,
and that's so smart becauseyou're right.
It feels like you know thesun's trying to take that spot.
Maybe the dad is trying to hangon a little bit longer than he
needs to.
Yeah, that can happen too, forsure, but that makes sense.
Staying in your own lane, theright people in the right seats,
the bus usually runs prettygood.
(04:54):
And that goes for anyorganization, not just a father
and son organization.
That goes for any organization.
And, quite frankly, culturallyit makes sense to have the right
people in the right seats,right yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Oh, absolutely, and you're right, it goes for any
type of organization, whetherit's a business or a nonprofit
or whatever.
I think it was Jim Collins whowrote a lot about you know, you
got to have the people in theright seats and all that and
headed in the same direction onthe bus, and no doubt about it.
You know, when I look at ourbusiness, you know some of the
more troubling times we have hadover the years and shoot, you
(05:32):
know we've been around oh gosh,closing on 45 years I guess.
So we've had our ups and downs,no one's going to kid anyone on
that.
But a lot of times it wasbecause we kind of lost focus.
Or, you know, maybe you know agood example.
I mean when dad he was only 68,when he had a pretty
debilitating stroke that reallylimited his ability to work in
(05:55):
the business and that was amajor disruption for us because
we had to replace that skill setand that knowledge that he had,
that being in his generation,he maybe hadn't always passed it
a log quite the way he shouldhave, so it left us a little bit
vulnerable there for a fewyears.
But, you know, had some goodteam members that stepped up and
(06:17):
stepped in as well also, so Ibet that was hard, but it was
hard on him it was.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
It had to be.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, that was a difficult thing and one of the
things that you know.
I watched that and I said man,I'm going to try to take care of
my health and make sure thatdoesn't happen.
I've done a really poor job oftaking care of my health, so I
don't know.
I hope it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
But you know, health is important but it's so easy to
put on the back burner.
Oh, absolutely, you know, Ilook everybody gets busy and you
know health relationships.
A lot of things get put on theback burner in the name of
growing a business and sometimesit feels like that's just
(07:03):
what's got to happen, but thenit kind of snowballs into.
It just keeps happening.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, you're right, absolutely right.
Yep, you kind of lead yourselfinto thinking, oh, that's this
way it has to be right now.
But then I'll catch up with theevent choice.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
It's hard because you hear people that talk about you
know if they could go back andchange their years with their
kids, they would.
But I'm not so sure about thatbecause you know you wouldn't be
where you are if you had to goback and stop doing what you did
.
Right, I don't know.
(07:39):
I don't know.
It's a tough one because I'mnot to that point of looking
back and saying I wish I wouldhave done X, y and Z.
But I'm kind of in the middleof doing X, y and Z and who
knows what I?
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I hear a quick story on that.
So my wife and I just have onechild.
We have a son.
He's 25 years old.
So when he was growing up, youknow, I was kind of I was having
to travel a lot for work, Imean a lot.
And one of the things I starteddoing when he was young I
thought at the time this waskind of cool was, you know, I'd
(08:14):
go to a different city, I'd buyhim a key chain and the key
chain would maybe have a pictureof something that city was
known for.
And then all of a sudden itdawned on me.
Well, someday all he's going tohave to remember is these
indications that I wasn't homeall the time because I was out
buying key chains I guess Idon't know and I realized
(08:34):
probably was not the best idea.
So kind of interesting.
He moved out a couple of yearsago, after graduating from
college.
I think the key chains arestill at my house, so that's
okay, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So is your son, so is he in the business as well.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
He is not.
He is a computer engineer andvery much loves what he does on
that end of things.
And at this point at least he'snot in the business.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Now did you want him to kind of follow your footsteps
?
I mean, I guess every day Ikind of want that.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
But yeah, what was your thought?
You know, I think you do hearthat a lot of parents you know,
oh gosh, I'd love my kid to dothat.
I never really had that feeling.
I always just wanted him to be.
You know what he was gifted andcalled to be, and it was always
kind of apparent he kind ofwalked more in his mother's
shadow.
She had been a computerprogrammer and very skilled and
(09:26):
gifted in the sciences and mathand all that type of stuff, and
so it was kind of apparent evenat a pretty young age that was
going to be his direction,rather than being a sales and
marketing guy out running aroundthe country schlepping metal
roofing the rest of his life.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
So you, so you provide.
Now, when you say metal roofing, do you go out?
Cause I know that you knowwe've mentioned a mutual friend
in that that I've done some workwith in the AI space and
automation space, but so so he'sgot a sheet metal company that
(10:02):
and he goes out and it's custom.
So is that the same thing thatyou're talking about here?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Ours is a little bit different.
So actually we call ours roofin a box.
So normally, you know, mostmetal roofing out there is
vertical seam it's calledstanding seam or some variant of
that and those panels have tobe run or cut or produced
specifically for every jobbecause they go from the top of
(10:29):
the roof down to the bottom andso every job is different.
Our products are very different.
So we're doing metal shingleproducts that are modular panels
, no custom panels or anything.
We've got about a dozendifferent product designs that
look like cedar, shake or slateor asphalt shingles or tile and
(10:50):
it literally roof in a box.
They get packed in corrugatedboxes and palletized and stretch
, wrapped and sent all over tojob sites or wherever it may be,
and so we kind of take out thatnecessity, for you know having
to bring a machine to the jobsite or you know running the
wrist, a dog gone, and I missedthat measurement by three inches
(11:13):
and all my panels are too short.
Yeah, ours really install verysimilar to asphalt shingles, but
they're actually metal shingles.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Okay.
So I don't know if I've everseen solar panels on a metal
shingle roof, but maybe Are you.
Do you do they put solar onmetal?
I guess they do.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think that'sinteresting.
So kind of the someone who goesout and wants to buy a metal
roof is usually thinking aboutyou know, I'd like something
that's going to be a goodlong-term investment, I'd like
something that's ultimatelygoing to reduce the operating
cost of my home.
Someone who buys solar isthinking those exact same things
(11:54):
and they want to do somethinggood for the environment.
So very similar goals betweenthe metal roof customer and the
solar customer.
So we do regularly see pastcustomers of ours adding solar
later.
There are some things that ifsomeone tells the contractor
right from the beginning youknow, I kind of dream of having
solar someday there are somethings that can be done at that
(12:16):
time to make the metal roofinstallation more solar ready.
But yeah, no, there'sabsolutely a lot of crossover
there and one of the things thatwe're working on right now is
an integrated solar solution.
So you know you've got yourmetal shingle roof and then
you've got some sort of solarshingle that's directly
(12:38):
integrated into it and it'sreally kind of what Tesla has
done with their solar glass roof, but ours would be a little bit
different take, but similar tothat man.
There's other companies workingon such things too.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Sure, okay, yeah, that makes sense.
The Tesla roof did not do greatwhen they first started, right?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
They never seemed to hit the numbers that you know.
They were promisingshareholders and everything.
Yeah, I do think it's a goodsystem.
I think what surprised them wasonce they started producing a
solar roof.
I think they kind of went intoit, maybe just indications from
things that you know Elon wassaying and they were telling
(13:18):
shareholders.
They went into thinking, well,this is just an extension of our
solar business, which wasalready in existence with
SolarCity.
But I think what they kind ofmaybe missed was they were now
in the roofing industry and youknow that's an entirely
different ball wax and I thinkit's taken them a while to kind
of ramp up their systems to besuccessful in the roofing
(13:42):
industry.
I mean one of the things youknow you put traditional solar
panels on the house and you knowyou got the panels are all the
same size, you just got to findthe place they're going to fit
and you fasten them on.
You know you're doing a metal,doing a roof, and every roof is
different.
You know, you have a valley hereand a hip there, and now you
got a chimney right in themiddle the whole thing, and now
(14:03):
you got, you know, all thesestink pipes coming up through
and all this stuff.
So that was what I think kindof presented.
A challenge for them wasrealizing OK, we're in the
roofing industry and we got todevelop things that are about
roofing, not just about solar.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, it makes total sense.
Ok, so let's talk about for asecond, you know, let's go into
more about how you run yourcompany Inside the people that
you work with your employees.
(14:39):
What is your take on how thatwhole process works?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, good question.
And so there's a book out thereand you've probably heard of it
, maybe you've read it calledthe E-Myth.
And the E-Myth was written by aguy quite a number of years ago
by name of Michael Gerber, andMichael Gerber still alive,
still does consulting, has aconsulting company out in North
(15:05):
Bay Area, california.
But you know what his wholetheory of the E-Myth was.
Oftentimes someone will start abusiness.
You know, okay, I'veapprenticed, I've learned to be
a good plumber, so I'm going tonow I've got some bucks and I've
got a nicer truck, I'm going tostart a plumbing business.
But in reality they were stilla plumber, they were still a
(15:29):
hands-on technician.
They were not a business owner.
And what the E-Myth teachescompanies is how to build
systems in your business so thatbusiness is not just all
dependent upon you doingeverything.
And that's what wouldoftentimes happen to that
technician who started abusiness.
Now, suddenly he had theresponsibility of a business
(15:52):
plus doing everything in it,always putting out fires, and
really couldn't develop thatsystemization.
So his business ran on systems.
Great example of this.
So McDonald's not the best foodin the world, but one thing I
can tell you about McDonald's ifI mentioned a McDonald's French
fry or a McDonald's quarterpounder, you can automatically
(16:14):
taste it.
You know exactly what that'sgoing to taste like, no matter
what McDonald's you go to in theentire country or even beyond.
And yet McDonald's has thehighest turnover rate of
employees of any business in thecountry.
The number and I won't evenhazard the guess right now, I
heard it once it was absolutelystaggering.
(16:35):
I mean, I think it wasliterally their average employee
is only there about two and ahalf months.
And so how do you do that?
How do you develop that kind ofconsistency and that kind of
recognition when you'reconstantly dealing with
turnovers?
And you do it throughsystemization and teaching
people those systems and holdingthem accountable to those
(16:57):
systems.
So that's what the emith is allabout, is how do you do that in
your business?
That's what Michael Gerber andhis consulting company do.
So I hit a point a number ofyears ago where I was really
frustrated in business and justalways felt like you know, there
were a couple of us Dad, myselfand this other guy who's still
(17:18):
here, my best friend but anyway,we were always just putting up
fires and we never had the timeto try to grow the company or
scale the company as they saythese days when the heck that
word came from, I don't know.
But anyway, we never had thattime because we were always so
tied up in the business.
So I turned to the emith, hisconsulting group, and became a
(17:40):
client.
And you know what he does is heteaches companies how to build
those systems into theirbusiness.
You know how to document actionplans, how to document job
responsibilities, all that typeof stuff.
And you know, over the yearsI've done some, you know,
training and working with othercompanies, contractors in
particular.
In fact Michael even wrote abook called the emith for
(18:02):
contractors because he realizedthat contractors needed this so
badly.
Now I will say, you know, overthe years, we are not as
systematized now as I wish wewere.
We are blessed.
We have a very loyal workforce,our average tenure across the
companies pushing out toward 20years.
So we just have a very trainedgroup of folks.
(18:24):
But if I ever wanted through aperiod where we were having, you
know, a lot of growth or a lotof new folks, we would
definitely have to step up thesystemization again.
But just a great book for anycontractor and then to hold
yourself accountable, to makesure you actually do those stuff
in your business rather thanjust read about and say, oh,
that's nice, anyway, good stuff.
(18:46):
So, yeah, I mean that's still.
My philosophy, though, in thebusiness is, you know, you got
to build systems into it, yougot to get people well trained
and you got to keep peopleinspired.
I think that's another thingthat some business owners kind
of miss out on, especially whenwe get so busy doing it.
We kind of miss out on keepingour stakeholders inspired.
(19:07):
We got to make sure that youknow everyone who is involved
with the business, whether it'steam members, employees,
customers, suppliers.
You know if you're in anonprofit, you got to have your
volunteer base, all you knowinspired, and you just do that
through a lot of communicationand a lot of congratulations and
(19:29):
kudos and recognition of thegreat stuff folks are doing and,
you know, constantly buildingthat up.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
So a great answer.
So how do you inspire whenyou're going through a rough
time?
Because that's hard, right,it's hard to be that guy when
things ultimately feel like theycould be going sideways.
And maybe you haven'texperienced that, but I'm sure
there's been a time that,Absolutely Like your dad, when
(19:57):
your dad had his accident thathad to be hard to be that leader
that you know, that positiveinfluence, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, it's a challenge.
So so a number of years ago, athing called open book
management became very popularin businesses, you know, where
you opened up all your books toyour team members and let them
see what was going on.
And I had a good friend who didthat with his business, and you
know he's telling oh I'm soexcited, this is great.
People are responding.
Well, you know, I saw him abouta year and a half later and the
(20:30):
economy had taken a turn southand I saw how's the open book
thing going and I mean Iseriously wanted to know I
wasn't trying to be cynical oranything and he said not so good
.
He said it was great when thebusiness was performing, but as
soon as the business wasn'tperforming and people were
seeing that, rather than beinspired to help the business,
(20:51):
they started jumping ship and Ilost a lot of key people and
people are down.
You know the business failed acouple years later.
It didn't make it through it.
Now, would it have beendifferent had he not done open
book management?
I don't know, it may have beenso.
So it's a great question though.
I mean, when you are goingthrough a down cycle, how do you
keep people inspired.
You know I don't think it comesdown to.
(21:13):
You got to look for the goodstuff people are doing and you
got to recognize it.
You know you can't sugarcoatthe fact that we got a challenge
ahead of us.
We're capable of this challenge.
We can pull together and we canmake it happen.
We can make it through whateverthis is.
But it's still the old sayinghow do you eat an elephant
Little bites by the time.
(21:34):
So you're still doing the samething of recognizing the good
performance of your team membersand giving them kudos of that
and just doing what you got todo, rebuilding one step at a
time.
But you got to constantly paintthat vision that better days
are ahead.
That's not always going to belike this.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Well, I think, setting expectations with the
employees let's just take yourguide, for example and having
that open book policy, if youset expectations and you build
those relationships and youbuild the trust in those
relationships, maybe that timewouldn't have been so rough and
maybe people would have pulledtogether.
(22:17):
I don't know, I don't even knowthe guy you're talking about.
Right, right, it seems like theway you just explained it.
If you do have thoserelationships, I'm hoping that
they would pull for you duringthose times, because you've been
there in the past in the good,but who knows?
I mean, it's hard to say.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, and of course sometimes too when your business
is going through tough times.
Every business is going throughtough times, so you can kind of
relate to that a little bitwith everybody too.
But one of the things I alwayshave is you got to have a little
change in people's pockets.
You got to have them knowingthat, hey, you've been there for
them in the past and that'sgoing to help them want to be
(22:57):
there for you in the future ifyou need them, when you need
them.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, 100%.
So how do you go about?
Do you have that kind of thatopen book?
Because it does help.
I'll say this I know that itdoes help when you've got, for
example, I run into contractorsall the time that don't have
that policy, and so thetechnicians see these $25,000
(23:24):
systems go out and they thinkthe owner is taking home 24 and
a half of that.
And the truth of the matter is,if they really knew what the
owner was taking home, they'dprobably be a little bit more
forgiving as far as how they getpaid and so on and so forth.
But money, it's not alwaysabout the money.
So here's the real question howdo you?
(23:46):
Because a lot of people thinkmoney is how you inspire people.
That is important, don't get mewrong, but it's not the only
way, because I think that a lotof people these days are they
would rather work for somebodythey can trust and that they can
believe in than they would takeanother dollar or two an hour.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Sure, yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that
people well, so we went througha little period there coming out
of COVID where I don't rememberwhat they called it.
They came up with fancy namesfor everything, but everyone was
kind of jump in ship for anextra dollar or extra $2.
(24:29):
And that was hard on a lot ofbusinesses that really had a
loyal workforce.
And now of a sudden they didhave team members being tempted
away over fairly small amounts,but yet the team member felt
like, well, everyone else isdoing it.
So I guess that's what I needto be doing also, and you get
this, what they call it FOMO,this fear of missing out.
(24:51):
If I don't do it, this might bemy only opportunity.
We do not.
So back to your question.
We do not practice open bookmanagement as it used to be
known.
Now, that said, what I've kindof learned is you got a few key
people in your company that areknowledgeable and trusted and
(25:13):
respected.
Sometimes you can give thosefolks some information and trust
that okay, when they carry thisinformation out around the
water cooler or the coffee pot,it's going to be carried out
accurately, and so sometimes youcan be a little selective and
float some trial balloons outthere, whatever, if you will to
(25:34):
a few folks to help themunderstand a little bit about
the financial dynamics of thecompany.
Because you're actually right,and I know that in our company
and I have to think probably inevery company, you know you've
got this deal of the last fewyears since COVID.
You know everything is 30%, 35%, 40% more than it used to be,
(25:58):
and so people naturally assume,well, someone's making that
money.
But in reality I think mostcompanies will tell you my
margin is actually shrunk, inthat I mean I had to pass
through what I could based uponthe increases in our raw
material costs and our laborcosts, and the reality is our
margin shrunk.
And so you know, sometimes yougo to a few trusted people in
(26:20):
your company, you let them knowthat and you let them kind of
carry the message.
Well, you know, don't get theseguys a hard time.
There may be more to the storythat you don't understand here,
have you?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
ever had one of those key people that you did trust,
that you did.
You know the had informationthat otherwise you wouldn't want
anybody else to know that didmake a bad decision.
You don't have to tell me theirname, obviously I'm not looking
for that, but I just wonderbecause you know I'm a very
trusting person.
If somebody tells me they'regonna do something, I just
(26:50):
believe you're gonna do it,because if I tell you I'm gonna
do something, I go do it, butnot everybody's like that.
So have you ever had anybodyjust completely break your trust
in that way?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, I really I can imagine the pain of that and
certainly I've heard stories ofthat.
I can't recall myselfpersonally having gone through
that.
Fortunately, yeah, I don'trecall going through it.
But yeah, that's got to betough.
If that happens, it has toaffect you emotionally and you
know the end result is nowthere's disinformation out there
that you got to change, sothat's tough too.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, that's good.
That's good news that you'venever had that happen.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I mean, I didn't anticipate that because I'll
probably think of something atdinner tonight, but right off
hand, nothing's coming to mind.
Court.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Well, it must not have been big enough for you to
remember which is great.
You know so, especially in this.
You know, in our industry, andnot not, obviously not from a
manufacturer's standpoint.
But you know, I'll tell you astory that we went in a guy's
house I was training a companylast week and we walked into the
house and the guy said man, hesaid a roofer just tried to rip
(27:57):
me off.
He tried to charge me $16,000for a roof.
And I went, got another quoteand it was 7000.
Man, that's a hard pill toswallow when you've got up, when
you're trying to sell this guy.
You know an HVAC unit and soyou know we hear that a lot of
that in the solar industry.
And I think and this is notknocking roofers or solar people
(28:20):
, maybe solar people, I don'tknow but it feels like these.
It feels like there's so muchopportunity.
Why would you not just do itthe right way, like, why would
you take them?
And here's why I have a theoryon that with solar is that these
guys, a lot of these guys noregulation.
So I think they get these, youknow a million or two million or
(28:42):
whatever in the bank and theysee that money and they're like,
well, I could just take thisand run.
It's more money than I've everseen in my life.
And that's what happens.
We hear this a lot.
I hear this a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
You know, one of the things that makes me think a
little bit about.
You know, and this is the wholeprocess of selling, and you
know, justifying value,delivering value, all that type
of stuff.
And you know, I think all of usare going to agree that you
know, usually taking that lowbid the most dangerous thing you
can do.
You know, it's kind ofinteresting.
(29:19):
I had a homeowner asking me theother day.
She said you know, contractorstell me it's going to take them
six weeks to get out here andshe said is that bad thing?
And I said well, I don't thinkthat's a bad thing.
I said if the guy told you hecould be there this afternoon,
that's probably a bad thing.
But well, though, that sixweeks is a bad thing.
But oh gosh, corey, I kind offorgot my train of thought there
(29:44):
?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Isn't that embarrassing?
No, not at all.
I do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I did think of it again.
Can we continue?
Go for it?
Yeah, okay.
So another author I enjoy.
You've probably followed to hisguy by name of Jeb Blunt.
It's spelled B-L-O-U-N-T, so itlooks like Blunt, but he
pronounced this at Blunt, andI've had Jeb speak at a couple
of events we've had over theyears.
Super nice guy, very smart.
(30:08):
One of his first books wascalled People Buy you, and you
know it was really about that.
People buy from a person moreso than they buy a thing.
And a quick story for me onthat.
I remember my wife and I weremuch younger we were probably
late 20s and we were on a carlot looking at a beautiful Jeep
(30:34):
Grand Cherokee I had beenadmiring for quite a while and
it was an expensive car.
It was an expensive car to now,but it was an expensive car.
And you know the salesman comesout and immediately is trying
to qualify me, trying to talk meinto a cheaper vehicle, all
this type of stuff, withoutreally getting to know me, and
(30:57):
you know.
And so I quickly decided Ican't work with this guy.
So you know we ended up leavingafter a while, and his name was
Scoop too.
That probably didn't work inhis favor either, but anyway.
So we went to another Jeepdealer about 45 s away and said
hey, the car I want is on thatlot down there.
(31:18):
We're going to buy it.
You got to help me get it.
And he said well, actually wecan't really deal with those
people either, but I got anotherdealer with the same vehicle
and I'll get it from him for you.
And so you know it really was,we buy from people, and so one
of the things that I have taughtfor a number of years and I
learned this from a friend ofmine by the name of Bill
(31:39):
Gladwell, who's a student of NLP, neuro Linguistic Programming
and what Bill teaches is youknow, a lot of times a
contractor goes into a house andhis first pitch really is more
on his company how great we are,here's why you should do
(32:00):
business with us all that typeof stuff and you know, then
he'll probably lead into someform of needs analysis and a
presentation.
Well, what Bill taught me andwhat I've taught people ever
since is you want to close withyour company.
You don't want to open withyour company.
So you leave the informationabout your company, the
information about yourinstallers, and I encourage
(32:24):
photos and names and families,anything you can do to make
everyone very personal and youknow parts of the community.
You close with that.
You don't open with it, becausethat is your most powerful
stuff.
That's what people are going tobuy, is they're going to buy
the people in your company?
They can get that product fromanybody else, but they can't get
(32:45):
your people from anybody butyou, and so that's what you.
That's your most powerful stuffthat you want to close with,
and I think a lot of contractorsget that backwards 100% they do
.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
I'm actually an NLP practitioner.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Are you really?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Oh yeah, I in fact.
It doesn't matter who it was,but I just had a company redo
their presentation because thefirst thing they talked about
was always been in business foryou know, 40 years.
The next slide was about thesalesman in his family and I'm
like God bless, like y'all arekilling me here, like you
haven't done anything to earnthat business yet Nothing, and I
(33:23):
said, you know they don'treally care about you until they
know that you care about them,and that's just the truth and
they may not even care then.
But depending on who you'redealing with, people don't.
People want to know what youcan do for them, whether that's
the system or a new roof orwhether that's whatever.
They want to know how much itis.
(33:43):
They want to know what you cando for them, but they want to
feel special, and telling themabout your family as the
salesperson or the companydoesn't make anybody feel warm
and fuzzy.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
No, no, no, not at that point.
You know doing it before youclose, and just you know you do
it so that you show that, hey,I'm not going to run away, I'm,
as part of this community, asyou are, and that gives them
that warm and fuzzy, that, ok,these are the guys I want to do
business with.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
That's right.
Yeah, it's just so funny.
You brought up NLP, so a lot ofpeople would a lot of people
repel from that because theythink it's some kind of slick.
But it's not.
It's just great questionsAsking great questions.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
You know, human science.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, 100%.
So I thought there was one morething I had for you.
I'm trying to remember what itwas.
I thought about it when youblanked out and now I'm lanking
out.
Yeah, I don't remember what itwas now, but so you have a
podcast, right.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I do, yeah, and you're going to be on it.
We got a recording date setwith you here in a few weeks, so
it's construction-disruptioncom.
Construction disruption is thename of the show and we've been
at it a couple of years and whatwe really try to do.
So really, the reason westarted the podcast was, you
know, we looked at our industryand we didn't see a lot of new,
(35:07):
younger folks coming into theindustry and that kind of
troubled us.
So we wanted to really capture,hey, what are the?
Where's our industry going,what are the new things coming
up?
And, as we say, we're kind ofuncovering the future of design,
building and remodeling.
And so we had we've had gueststhat talk about tech, talk about
(35:28):
products, talk about systems,services, things like offsite
construction and really tryingto pull in younger folks to our
industry and say, hey, here arethe opportunities for you out
there, here, here are the areasthat are going to be growing in
coming years.
And but I got to tell you it'slike anything that we do or any
(35:51):
sort of ministry or service youdo, the benefit has been to me.
I have learned so much from ourguests.
It's just been a great time and, you know, I hope that someone
takes time to listen.
They learned too, but I justcan't believe how much I've
learned about the industrythrough it.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
That's a fascinating point.
Just like you know, here I getI've been learning from you for
the last 45 minutes about thingsthat I just didn't necessarily,
some things I just didn't know.
You know, I just you know, andso it is a one-on-one educate
selfishly, it's a one-on-oneeducation for me.
And you know, I think, but a lotof people learn from.
(36:30):
I think this is the newplatform.
I think podcasting is.
I mean, that's how I learnabout.
If I'm look, if I'm going to goshop somebody, if I'm going to
shop a customer, I'm going tolisten to their podcasts because
they'll tell me everything thatthey're not doing right.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yep, it's amazing yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
And it's a great marketing tool.
So, Todd, I really appreciateyou coming on.
This has been such a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
It's been great fun.
Thank you, corey and I I lookforward to learning a lot more
from you here in a couple ofweeks when we get together again
on construction disruption.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Absolutely.
Where can people find you, Todd?
Where would you like for themto find you, you know?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I'm on LinkedIn, Todd Miller Metal Roofing, You'll
find me.
I also have a website atasktodmillercom where I try to
provide a lot of education andsupport for contractors and
property owners, and people caneasily email me at Todd at
asktodmillercom.
And, of course, our business isisaiainustries
(37:29):
isaiainustriescom and they cansee lots of pretty pictures of
metal roofs there.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Perfect.
I appreciate you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
I appreciate you.
Thank you, it's been a greattime.
Thank you, ford.
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