June 18, 2024 • 25 mins
Debra Allcock Tyler’s dream for the future involves people being a bit more thoughtful and intentional. “It's not that we have to agree with each other. It's about the way we engage. I'd really like to see, some kind of kindness.” “I am the eldest of four children. I come from a massive mixed race Anglo Indian Catholic family. My mother's one of seven. I have loads and loads of cousins. I struggled a lot with mental health in my young years. I had a massive breakdown when I was in my early thirties. I'm turning 60, my mother's turning 80. My parents celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary. My nephew is 18, my niece is, 21”.
Asked what her older self would say to her younger self, Debra replies “ I would say to myself, pay more attention to what you think about you rather than what other people think about you. I would go back to myself and say, tell the truth about how you're feeling , get the help that you need rather than just keep going. My grandmother used to say, what other people think of you is none of your business.”.
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Episode Transcript
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Paula (00:00):
Welcome to "TesseLeads" with your host Tesse Akpeki and me,
Paula Okonneh, who's her co host.
"TesseLeads" is a safe, sensitive,and supportive place and space
to share, to hear, and tell yourstories and your experiences.
We and our audience always getsuper curious about the dilemmas
(00:23):
that shape our lives and shapeyour lives and your futures.
And this is the place to talk about that.
The theme for today is"Dreams For The Future".
And our guest is Debra Alcock-Tyler.
Typically, I give you the audiencea synopsis on who my guest is,
(00:48):
but today it'll be different.
Debra, why don't you tellour audience who you are?
Debra (00:54):
Okay.
Hi, Paula.
Hi, Tesse.
Okay, so my name's Debra Alcock-Tyler.
I am the eldest of four children.
I come from a massive mixed raceAnglo Indian Catholic family.
So my mother's one of seven.
For example, I have like loads andloads and loads of cousins, many of whom
Tesse has actually met, interestingly.
(01:14):
So I come from this big family.
My birth name is actuallyDebra Alcock, that's my name.
The Tyler is my ex husband's name.
What happened was when I was married,I started to like, do a lot of writing
and sort of build up a bit of a public,you know, not massive public, but
you know, a bit of a public profile.
And so I became knownas Debra Alcock-Tyler.
(01:34):
And so when we got divorced, itwas really, I had to do this thing
that if I dropped the Tyler, youknow, people are going to know.
And so I just thought,oh, I'll just keep it.
It's just a name.
I don't care.
So interesting my family always likenagging me, say drop the Tyler, drop
the Tyler, he's your ex husband.
I'm like, I don't really care about it.
For me, the surname is irrelevantanyway, because it's always the
surname of the father, not the mother.
And I just have issues with that.
(01:55):
So, you know, I'm Debra.
You know, so yeah, so there you go.
So that's some weirdpersonal stuff about me.
Tesse (02:04):
I'm laughing so much because Debra, I love that
introduction of yourself to us.
And yes, you're right thatI met your family, a number
of times and love them all.
Love them, every single one of them.
There's no one, I really love them.
And the dog and yourdog, and your dog love.
(02:24):
Love your dog.
You know, and so, you know, I'm supercurious, one thing you don't know
is that I've got a term for you ora name for you, which I've shared
with Paula and that's "Debrastic".
Debra (02:36):
"Debrastic".
Tesse (02:36):
And that is putting Debra and fantastic together.
Debra (02:39):
Oh my goodness.
I don't think that'sgoing to catch on, Tesse.
Tesse (02:44):
That's my way of seeing you, that I see you as a catalyst for excellence.
I think of you and Ithink of you as sunshine.
And I also see you assomebody who continues to hone
greatness, goodness in others.
And that's why I coined that term.
And my question is, howdo you see yourself?
Debra (03:01):
You know, that's so funny you should ask that, Tesse.
So I've got a board meeting next week,and we've got five new trustees coming.
And my chair and I were talking aboutlike, kind of the ice breaking, like
getting people to know each other.
And he came up with this ideathat everybody has to say, how
would your friends describe you?
So if I met one of your friendsin the street, what would you say?
And I got thinking about myself andI had to laugh, because my friends
(03:23):
would say, well, we love Debs, but youhave to be really careful about her in
public spaces, cause she's always on it.
Which is really true.
I actually find it incrediblydifficult to like, let things go.
And that's not a strength.
You know, I often end up, I can see peopleglazing over, because we're like, well,
you'll be having a lovely chat aboutsomething, you know, like perfume or
makeup or whatever thing happens to me.
(03:44):
And then somebody will say somethingand I'll be like, well, actually I
think you'll find that that's not true.
Or I think you'll find thatthat's the eternalized misogyny
or why, you know what I mean?
It's like, I'm always on it.
And so I dread public spaces.
I'm not, I'm gregarious, because I'velearned coming from a big family and
the, you know, the sort of nomadicbackground I come from, you have to
be able to speak out and perform.
(04:05):
But actually I'm quiet.
My favorite thing to do is justto sit quietly by myself, to read
my book, not to speak to people.
I really don't like parties.
I hate social gathering.
I'm not great with strangers.
I always feel like that I'm notparticularly good fun and that people are
going to find me difficult to be around.
And sometimes they do.
So I tend to sort of, you know, one ofmy strengths is the fact that I'm so
(04:26):
passionate about things and I want tochange it and I don't let things go, but
that's also one of my weaknesses becauseit puts people off of me, you know.
And like, they're not so keen tohang out with me, you know, so yeah.
Tesse (04:36):
The way that I see you as somebody who I've known for over
20 years now, and every time it'srefreshed is I love your honesty.
I love your truth.
I love your standing upto and calling things out.
I also love your calling things in.
And I think sometimes when peopleare uncomfortable with that, it's
(04:58):
because they're uncomfortablewith the truth, you know.
I remember Debra, and I sharedthis story with Paula a couple of
years ago when I'd had a reallyhorrible time with a group of people.
Debra (05:09):
I remember.
Tesse (05:10):
Who were on the religious side.
Debra (05:11):
I remember.
Tesse (05:12):
And I had gone into a space of ego deflation, and also
I'm not going to go there again.
And I said, let me meet you.
Debra (05:21):
Yeah.
Tesse (05:22):
And you said, yep, I'm coming over, and you came over.
I remember we were in a little roomand you talked to me and you said,
what feedback did you get fromthe people who commissioned it?
And I said, they said it was goodand you said, don't you believe them?
I said, but see whatthose people are saying.
And you said, who do you believe?
The people who commissionedit or the other ones?
Because you were doing what you weredoing so well, that's why they got upset.
(05:43):
And then you went thereand I said, what about you?
Would you work with these people again?
You said, yeah, it's too important not to.
And then what I'm trying to say is thatthere's that piece whereby some things
are hard because they need to be done.
They're not easy, because if they wereeasy, everybody would be doing it, like
behavioural change, like culture change.
So coming back to you, I sense that Ilove what you're saying about how you
(06:05):
energise yourself, and I hear that youmight not be fun, but sometimes your
truth, and truth is sometimes not fun.
Debra (06:13):
That's very true.
But when you're at a party drinkingand people want to talk about what they
watched on telly last night, sometimes,you know, I need to suppress the truth.
I'm just not good at lettingpeople just have a good time.
I'm terrible.
Yeah.
Tesse (06:28):
Sometimes life is much too short, you know, you know, sometimes.
Debra (06:33):
Yes, I have time for Miss morality.
Do you not realize the state of the world?
You're giving me a good timelaughing at this wedding.
Why are you laughing at this wedding?
Do you not know what'shappening over there in Yemen?
Tesse (06:46):
You're a faithful, you're a faithful.
Paula (06:50):
That shows your heart.
Tesse (06:51):
Yeah.
Debra (06:52):
But then, it's five and it's my birthday.
I don't care.
Pay attention to them.
Paula (06:58):
But then we need people like you.
I mean, we need people who in partieswhere everyone wants to forget what's
happening, to remind them that look, ifeach one of us care, things we can be
the voice that can create the changesthat we want to talk about, you know.
Debra (07:15):
I think you're both being far too kind to me.
My brother would be saying, no, sheneeds to let, when to let it go.
Paula (07:25):
So we recorded right at the beginning of 2024.
What would you like?
I mean, we're talking aboutdreams for the future.
So December 31st, what would youlike to have experienced between
now and the end of the year?
Debra (07:39):
Oh what would I like to have experienced?
Paula (07:43):
Between now, what are you looking forward to doing this year in 2024?
What's occurring for you?
Debra (07:48):
Well, there's a lot of big events, big anniversaries in my family this year.
You know, like I'm turning60, my mother's turning 80.
My parents celebrate their60th wedding anniversary.
My nephew is 18, my niece is, 21.
My uncle is 70.
My cousin, other cousin is 61.
Yeah, so there's loads of those.
So I'm really looking forwardto, yeah, us all being together.
(08:09):
I mean, my big, wide, mixed, youknow, race, Anglo Indian Catholic
family is very important to me.
And we're very close, and we stayin touch and things like that.
So like being around them is like, youknow, so that's, so I'm really looking
forward to experiencing that this year.
In terms of personal dreams.
I don't really have sort of personalambition in that sort of sense.
(08:32):
You know, I'm like, there isn't athing I particularly want to do.
There's no different job I want to do.
There's no, you know, I'mincredibly lucky that I feel I've
managed to do a lot of stuff.
Like if I, you know, rolled over deadtomorrow, I wouldn't be full of regret.
Well, I'd be dead, so I wouldn'tbe full of regret, anyway,
but you know what I mean?
I wouldn't be, you know, I wouldn't feellike, well, I never got to, you know.
(08:53):
And there are things I regret, ofcourse, I was never able to be a mother.
So that's really sad for me, you know.
So, yeah, but I wouldn't.
So in terms of dreams myself, notreally, I want dreams more broadly.
I want to see, like people thinkingmore reasonably about things, you know.
People being a bit morethoughtful about stuff.
It's not that we will have toagree with each other, but it's
(09:13):
about the way in which we engage.
I'd really like to see, you know, someof the kind of like, the hatred that
people have certain marginalized groups.
So I'm really uncomfortable and disturbedand upset by the sort of anti trans hatred
that we have in the UK at the moment.
I find it distasteful and difficult.
I don't really understandwhat the, you know, what the.
(09:35):
I understand, I hear what peoplesay, you know, on whichever side you
have to be looking at, but I justhate the whole sort of rhetoric and
nastiness and like pushing people down.
And I would like to see that,and that's just one example.
There are other examples.
I just like to see thatsort of narrative, you know.
You look at things like Israel, Gazaconflict, and you have like people saying
(09:56):
that you've got to take a side, you know,you've got to, and I'm like, the side I'm
taking is the babies and the children.
That's the only side I'm interested in.
You know, and I was talking to somebodythe other day and saying, actually with
this, you don't have to take a side.
You just have to say, thisis a horrible conflict.
I don't really properly understand it, butplease stop killing babies on both sides.
Do you know what I mean?
(10:17):
It's like, I would just like peopleto be a bit more about not who wins,
not who's right and who's wrong.
But look, how do we just move forward?
I would love to see more of that.
You know, how do we fix this?
How do we, how do we seepeople as human beings?
You know, I worry so much aboutthe language that we use, you know.
Or like, you know, when we talkabout illegal migrants and it
(10:38):
drives me crazy, there's no suchthing as an illegal migrant.
There's a migrant orthere's an asylum seeker.
And if they come and their asylumis rejected, then they go back
to wherever they came from.
They're not illegal.
You know, I really dislike thatkind of rhetoric and language
that we use and things like that.
So I would love to seethat change this year.
I'm not sure it will becauseit's an election year.
So I think it's probably goingto get even more polarized.
(11:00):
But, and I think that the work thatwe do in the voluntary sector can
really help with that actually.
You know, and I'm not saying about,you know, when I say don't take sides,
I'm not saying that some things clearlyaren't wrong, or aren't right, sorry.
And some things are clearly wrong.
I get that.
But it's just that whole sort of,I'm in this camp and therefore
this camp can do no wrong.
Well, I'm in this camp andtherefore this camp can do no wrong.
I just, I've never experienced thatas being helpful, you know, so that's
(11:22):
what I really hope for this year.
But I mean, Paula, you and I were chattingon a different occasion, weren't we?
About young people.
You know, I feel so much hope withyoung people, because they just, I
mean, okay sweeping generalization,but they just seem so much more
compassionate and tolerant andunderstanding and more willing to stand
up for what they believe in and more.
(11:42):
And they seem to have amore global outlet, which I
think personally is healthy.
I always think about, it seemed likebuy local, shop local, only local.
I think that's all very well and good.
But what if you come from a country wherethe only thing you can grow is oranges?
You know, so saying like, we'll just doin this area, it's not helping that law.
You know, can't survive on orangesor like, you know, you mustn't
go on holiday to these places,the places that rely on tourism.
(12:03):
Do you see what, you know, I'm also,and I love the fact that our young
people are very global in their outlook.
And I think that's one of the bigbenefits actually of modern technology.
You know, when I was growing up, wedidn't know what was going on on the
other side of the world, you know.
Most of the young people I know nowhave like regularly in communication in
their video games with somebody who'sin India or who's in Japan or who's in
some other America, some other parts ofthe world that we would never typically,
(12:26):
unless you're pen pals, you know, andlike took weeks to get something back.
So I love the fact that they seemto have a more global outlook.
And I hope that, well, Idon't hope I don't dream.
I know that that will permeatethrough, and I'm confident we will
have better leadership in the world.
with the next, you know, the nextgenerations of young people who
I think are just better peoplethan my generation largely is, and
(12:49):
certainly the generation ahead.
Tesse (12:51):
You know, when you say don't hope, don't dream, it's just as what is, that's
a hope and that's a dream, you know, it's,but the fact that you're saying that means
that it's a possible thing, you know.
Walt Disney's often quoted assaying, "if you can dream it, you
can, you can see it, you can be it".
And I think, I believe that to be true.
You know, our discoursehas got so uncompassionate.
Debra (13:12):
Yes.
Tesse (13:12):
And when I think of you, I think of you as kind and caring, and
kind and caring is actually lookingat people and being empathetic,
seeing how they can be in their shoes.
And also seeing on stuff, you know,and so one of the things I'm pretty
curious about is given the life thatyou have led and you're leading, you've
(13:35):
mentioned to us that this is going to bethe year where you turn the big six o.
Debra (13:40):
Yeah.
Tesse (13:40):
Yay.
And what would your older self sayto your younger self knowing what
you are experiencing now and you haveexperienced, what would you be saying?
Debra (13:50):
This too shall pass.
You know, that don't get too in despairabout the bad times because they will
go, and don't get too excited about thegood times because they will also go.
You know, that life hasa habit of doing this.
I would say to my younger self, listenmore, Debs, you know, don't be so.
I mean, I'm dogmatic now andI've softened Tesse and Paula.
(14:11):
Can you imagine what I waslike when I was in my twenties?
Tesse (14:14):
Dynamic
Debra (14:15):
Well, I'm such a know it all now, you know, and let me tell
you my twenties, I knew everythingbetter than anyone else, you know?
So I would go back to my younger selfand I say, listen more and get the,
actually, you know, very little, bemore open to those sorts of things.
I would say I struggled a lot withmental health in my young years.
(14:35):
I had a massive breakdown whenI was in my early thirties.
And it turned out that I'd had amental health issue since I was very
young, but it's just never been pickedup because back in those days it
wasn't recognized in young people.
Now that when I ran away ordisappeared, I'd lock myself in my room.
I wouldn't get out of bed fordays, you know, put that down to
just being a teenager or tantrum.
And actually it was muchmore serious than that.
I would go back to myself and say, tellthe truth about how you're feeling,
(14:59):
you know, and go and get the help thatyou need rather than just keep going.
And I would also say to myself, don'tbelieve what other people say about
you, whether it's either good or bad.
You know, my grandmother alwaysused to say, what other people think
of you is none of your business.
And I just think that, yeah,it's super helpful, actually.
If they think I'm amazing, ifthey think I'm terrible, that's
about them, not actually about me.
(15:20):
What's much more importantis what I think about myself.
You know, and so to not be fooledby the people who say, you know,
you're fabulous and then turn aroundand stab you in the back or, and
not to be broken by the people whosay you're absolutely awful, who may
end up, you know, being, it's like.
You have to look yourself in themirror and say, right, Debs, these
are the bits of you that you knoware not nice and you could work on.
And these are the bits ofyou that you're proud of, and
(15:42):
you can enhance those things.
And I think that's also real proper,which I think I've come to now as I'm
older, but when I was younger, I'mnot sure I was properly self aware.
I'm not sure I really understood.
You know, it's like, I alwaysfelt I was in the right.
I always justified my own behavior evenwhen that behavior was really poor.
And instead of being able tosay, actually, Debra, you said
that horrible thing becauseyou wanted to hurt that person.
(16:04):
You know, and being honestabout it and recognizing that we
all do those things sometimes.
And yeah, so I think I would sayto myself, paying more attention to
what you think about you rather thanwhat other people think about you.
Tesse (16:15):
Oh, I think that's an amazing response.
Paula, you know, you've met Debra.
Debra was one of our first everpodcast guests on "TesseTalk" and
kindly has come back and I stoppedour discussions and our conversations.
How do you see, how doyou experience Debra?
Paula (16:33):
Oh my word, she said something that her grandma said and then she
ended the last sentence saying itabout, you know, pay more attention
to what you think about yourself thanwhat other people think about you.
And so I wrap that up with saying, I seeDebra as funny, but pragmatic, very wise,
probably not recognizing how wise she is.
You give a lot more tip and youalways say, do I talk, you ask
(16:57):
sometimes whether you talk a lot.
No.
You don't talk a lot.
You say a lot of things thatmake practical sense and are
very impactful to many people.
And so what do I think about Debra?
I think that she's, and now you have tobelieve this because one thing you said.
Debra (17:18):
If you're going to say something negative, Paula, I'm not listening.
I'm not listening.
Paula (17:23):
Oh my gosh, I think I'm going to borrow Tesse's word.
She said at the beginning that "Debrastic", which means fantastic and Debra.
You're unique.
You're yourself.
You're truthful.
You believe in saying the truth,but saying it in ways that are not
(17:44):
just practical, but they're helpfulto those who you are speaking with.
And I believe in listening to you thatyou know you are someone who also is
very good with taking feed forward.
Is it what we called it?
A feed?
Yeah.
Tesse (17:58):
Feed forward.
Paula (17:59):
You believe in feedback, but in the way that it should be helpful.
And so I can see, I asked you thisquestion, what do you think your
experiences would be when you lookback at, on December 31st, 2024?
I see a woman who wasalways willing to learn.
And to me, that's moreof what the world needs.
People who are willing to learn,take what they hear, muse on it
(18:21):
and spit it out or give it backin ways that can help mankind.
So that's my summary of Debra.
Tesse (18:27):
Debra.
Can you believe it?
Paula (18:30):
And please believe it.
Debra (18:35):
I believe you believe it, Paula.
Whether it's true aboutme, I'm not so sure.
Paula (18:38):
Aren't we all?
Debra (18:39):
I'm in my own head.
I know all the horriblethoughts that I think about.
Tesse (18:43):
You know, Debra, I'm so glad that Paula reflects back what she sees.
And I, at the beginning, Ireflected back what I saw and
what I still continue to see.
But when I think about you and that rayof sunshine that I was thinking about,
Is it the heart that you have, but youare unconditionally yourself, and that
helps others around you, includingme, to be unconditionally ourselves.
(19:04):
Because that kind of embrace, that kindof acceptance, you know, of you as you,
knowing that perfection doesn't exist,but knowing that you can be and strive
to be your best self, knowing that thereare days when that is not always going
to be the best version of you on the day.
I love that.
And when I thought of the kind of topic,dreams for the future, I actually thought
(19:27):
you are a dream, because if we are that,then the world would be a much kinder,
much brighter, much more compassionateand functional space, a place to be.
Debra (19:37):
Oh wow.
Paula (19:38):
I say amen to that.
A double amen.
Tesse (19:41):
Yeah.
Debra (19:41):
We just need the young, don't we?
We need the young, brave andbold and kind and compassionate.
Tesse (19:47):
And you have the competence to go with it.
Competent, you know.
Debra (19:51):
I thought after this, bits of my body are falling apart.
You know, I'm constantly needing to pee.
It does not belong to me.
It belongs to the younger lot, honestly.
Tesse (20:01):
This belongs to you, not me.
Paula over to you.
Paula (20:12):
Oh boy.
So as we wrap up this conversation,I mean, we've heard, I mean, I've
learned so much more about you today.
What words of wisdom do you think youwould like to share with our visitors?
There I go, with ourviewers and our listeners.
Okay.
Let me rephrase that.
Now, because we're talking aboutdreams for the future, just give
us two words that you would liketo share with our listeners who
(20:36):
are thinking about the future thatyou can see that will be practical.
If you were the prime minister today,that would be practical for 2024.
Just two words.
Debra (20:46):
Well, two words is too hard for me, Paula.
Tesse (20:48):
I love it.
I love it
Debra (20:52):
I would say, firstly, be flexible.
I can't bear it when people say,stick to the plan, stick to the plan.
It's like plans are nonsense.
Planning is all right.
But like, you know, stick to yourprinciples, but change your plan
because circumstances change.
And I think that's truefor you in your own life.
Like if, for example, when I was veryyoung, all I wanted to be was an actress,
(21:13):
and I also wanted to write books.
Those were my two dreams.
And I never ended up being an actress,and I never ended up being an author of
fiction books, which I always wanted to.
But I have ended upbeing a public speaker.
So doing a lot of performances onstages, talking to people about stuff.
And also I've written alot of management books.
So the universe has a very strange wayof delivering for you what you wanted,
(21:38):
it just doesn't necessarily presentin the way in which you imagined it
would when you were 10, 20, 30, 40.
So like, so get that you'reprobably are achieving your dreams.
It's just not necessarily manifestingthe way in which you thought they would.
So that's the first thing.
I think the second thing is, which refer,you know, to the thing you said before,
but it's about just don't stop hoping.
(22:01):
You know, it's like withouthope, the situation is hopeless.
You know, it's like, you've always got tohave hope, because there always is hope.
As long as you'rebreathing, there is hope.
As long as there is, you know, yeah,that there is always, always hope.
Yeah.
And I suppose really practicallyget a reputation for being somebody
who people want to work with.
(22:23):
So think about who are the sortsof people you want to work with.
And most of us want to work withpeople who are enthusiastic, positive,
willing to roll up their sleeves.
Like, don't do it.
It's not my job.
It's your job.
You know, most of us want towork with those kinds of people.
And if you want to get on in your career,being that kind of person is what's going
to get you promoted, you know, for all,everybody thinks otherwise, you know, it's
(22:45):
not brand nosing or anything like that.
It's about the fact that if you justenthusiastic, if you're somebody who's
always like points out why it can'tbe done, or what the problems are, or
all the difficulties are in the way.
Nobody wants to work with peoplelike that because they drag you down.
We don't want to be dragged down.
We want to be dragged up.
So have a reputation saying,yeah, that's a massive challenge,
but we'll find a way around it.
(23:06):
Or, okay, I know that's gonewrong, but what we need to do is
think about how we can fix it.
You know, be that person, have thatattitude and you will, and even if you
don't get to the, you know, run theblooming country or ever who'd want to,
to be fair, you will always feel goodabout yourself because you'll always
know that you gave everything a good goand you tried it and you didn't sort of
give up, so it can't be done, you know.
(23:26):
It's too difficult.
I haven't got enough money.
I haven't got enough people.
I haven't got enough resources.
And then show me somebody who says,I've got plenty of everything,
you know, even rich people.
Well, definitely rich peoplenever ever have enough money.
You know what I mean?
So need that kind of person.
So Paula, you said two words.
I think that was about 202.
Tesse (23:45):
I think paula's suspected it wouldn't be that.
I'd call it a trick question.
Paula (23:56):
I'm a mathematician.
I love
Tesse (23:58):
Inspirational, Debra!
Paula (24:00):
That was exponential.
You took two and you took itto the 10th power or more.
I love it.
So I love, what I'm going to endwith is summarizing the three
things that I heard from you.
Change the plans, but stick with yourprinciples because life continues.
Life goes on.
Don't stop hoping.
That's the essence of life.
(24:20):
And be the person that people want,get a reputation for being the type
of person that people want to bearound because of your quality.
What better way to end this show.
Tesse (24:30):
Wow.
So "Debrastic"
. Paula: Yeah.
So thank you so much.
We want you all, our listeners,to continue listening and tuning
in to "TesseLeads", because onthis show, you hear people in
their authentic, authentic way.
We ask that you head over to "ApplePodcasts", "Google Podcasts",
(24:51):
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We'd love when you do that.
And if you have found"TesseLeads" helpful, who hasn't?
Please let us know in your reviews.
If you have any questions or topicsyou'd love us to cover, send us a note.
And if you'd like to be a guest onour show, head over to our website,
which is simply "TesseLeads",and you can apply there.
(25:14):
Debra, you are the best.
What is it?
Debrastic?
Debrastic, yes.
Debra (25:20):
It will never catch on.
It doesn't matter howmany times you say it.
Tesse (25:23):
No, I know it won't catch on, but it catches on for both of us.
And I mean, you just needa few to change the world.
So you are absolutely Debrastic, honestly.
Debra (25:32):
Saying that word makes its way into the Oxford English dictionary.
Paula (25:39):
There you go.
Uh huh.
Welcome to "TesseLeads" with your host Tesse Akpeki and me,
Paula Okonneh, who's her co host.
"TesseLeads" is a safe, sensitive,and supportive place and space
to share, to hear, and tell yourstories and your experiences.
We and our audience always getsuper curious about the dilemmas
(00:23):
that shape our lives and shapeyour lives and your futures.
And this is the place to talk about that.
The theme for today is"Dreams For The Future".
And our guest is Debra Alcock-Tyler.
Typically, I give you the audiencea synopsis on who my guest is,
(00:48):
but today it'll be different.
Debra, why don't you tellour audience who you are?
Debra (00:54):
Okay.
Hi, Paula.
Hi, Tesse.
Okay, so my name's Debra Alcock-Tyler.
I am the eldest of four children.
I come from a massive mixed raceAnglo Indian Catholic family.
So my mother's one of seven.
For example, I have like loads andloads and loads of cousins, many of whom
Tesse has actually met, interestingly.
(01:14):
So I come from this big family.
My birth name is actuallyDebra Alcock, that's my name.
The Tyler is my ex husband's name.
What happened was when I was married,I started to like, do a lot of writing
and sort of build up a bit of a public,you know, not massive public, but
you know, a bit of a public profile.
And so I became knownas Debra Alcock-Tyler.
(01:34):
And so when we got divorced, itwas really, I had to do this thing
that if I dropped the Tyler, youknow, people are going to know.
And so I just thought,oh, I'll just keep it.
It's just a name.
I don't care.
So interesting my family always likenagging me, say drop the Tyler, drop
the Tyler, he's your ex husband.
I'm like, I don't really care about it.
For me, the surname is irrelevantanyway, because it's always the
surname of the father, not the mother.
And I just have issues with that.
(01:55):
So, you know, I'm Debra.
You know, so yeah, so there you go.
So that's some weirdpersonal stuff about me.
Tesse (02:04):
I'm laughing so much because Debra, I love that
introduction of yourself to us.
And yes, you're right thatI met your family, a number
of times and love them all.
Love them, every single one of them.
There's no one, I really love them.
And the dog and yourdog, and your dog love.
(02:24):
Love your dog.
You know, and so, you know, I'm supercurious, one thing you don't know
is that I've got a term for you ora name for you, which I've shared
with Paula and that's "Debrastic".
Debra (02:36):
"Debrastic".
Tesse (02:36):
And that is putting Debra and fantastic together.
Debra (02:39):
Oh my goodness.
I don't think that'sgoing to catch on, Tesse.
Tesse (02:44):
That's my way of seeing you, that I see you as a catalyst for excellence.
I think of you and Ithink of you as sunshine.
And I also see you assomebody who continues to hone
greatness, goodness in others.
And that's why I coined that term.
And my question is, howdo you see yourself?
Debra (03:01):
You know, that's so funny you should ask that, Tesse.
So I've got a board meeting next week,and we've got five new trustees coming.
And my chair and I were talking aboutlike, kind of the ice breaking, like
getting people to know each other.
And he came up with this ideathat everybody has to say, how
would your friends describe you?
So if I met one of your friendsin the street, what would you say?
And I got thinking about myself andI had to laugh, because my friends
(03:23):
would say, well, we love Debs, but youhave to be really careful about her in
public spaces, cause she's always on it.
Which is really true.
I actually find it incrediblydifficult to like, let things go.
And that's not a strength.
You know, I often end up, I can see peopleglazing over, because we're like, well,
you'll be having a lovely chat aboutsomething, you know, like perfume or
makeup or whatever thing happens to me.
(03:44):
And then somebody will say somethingand I'll be like, well, actually I
think you'll find that that's not true.
Or I think you'll find thatthat's the eternalized misogyny
or why, you know what I mean?
It's like, I'm always on it.
And so I dread public spaces.
I'm not, I'm gregarious, because I'velearned coming from a big family and
the, you know, the sort of nomadicbackground I come from, you have to
be able to speak out and perform.
(04:05):
But actually I'm quiet.
My favorite thing to do is justto sit quietly by myself, to read
my book, not to speak to people.
I really don't like parties.
I hate social gathering.
I'm not great with strangers.
I always feel like that I'm notparticularly good fun and that people are
going to find me difficult to be around.
And sometimes they do.
So I tend to sort of, you know, one ofmy strengths is the fact that I'm so
(04:26):
passionate about things and I want tochange it and I don't let things go, but
that's also one of my weaknesses becauseit puts people off of me, you know.
And like, they're not so keen tohang out with me, you know, so yeah.
Tesse (04:36):
The way that I see you as somebody who I've known for over
20 years now, and every time it'srefreshed is I love your honesty.
I love your truth.
I love your standing upto and calling things out.
I also love your calling things in.
And I think sometimes when peopleare uncomfortable with that, it's
(04:58):
because they're uncomfortablewith the truth, you know.
I remember Debra, and I sharedthis story with Paula a couple of
years ago when I'd had a reallyhorrible time with a group of people.
Debra (05:09):
I remember.
Tesse (05:10):
Who were on the religious side.
Debra (05:11):
I remember.
Tesse (05:12):
And I had gone into a space of ego deflation, and also
I'm not going to go there again.
And I said, let me meet you.
Debra (05:21):
Yeah.
Tesse (05:22):
And you said, yep, I'm coming over, and you came over.
I remember we were in a little roomand you talked to me and you said,
what feedback did you get fromthe people who commissioned it?
And I said, they said it was goodand you said, don't you believe them?
I said, but see whatthose people are saying.
And you said, who do you believe?
The people who commissionedit or the other ones?
Because you were doing what you weredoing so well, that's why they got upset.
(05:43):
And then you went thereand I said, what about you?
Would you work with these people again?
You said, yeah, it's too important not to.
And then what I'm trying to say is thatthere's that piece whereby some things
are hard because they need to be done.
They're not easy, because if they wereeasy, everybody would be doing it, like
behavioural change, like culture change.
So coming back to you, I sense that Ilove what you're saying about how you
(06:05):
energise yourself, and I hear that youmight not be fun, but sometimes your
truth, and truth is sometimes not fun.
Debra (06:13):
That's very true.
But when you're at a party drinkingand people want to talk about what they
watched on telly last night, sometimes,you know, I need to suppress the truth.
I'm just not good at lettingpeople just have a good time.
I'm terrible.
Yeah.
Tesse (06:28):
Sometimes life is much too short, you know, you know, sometimes.
Debra (06:33):
Yes, I have time for Miss morality.
Do you not realize the state of the world?
You're giving me a good timelaughing at this wedding.
Why are you laughing at this wedding?
Do you not know what'shappening over there in Yemen?
Tesse (06:46):
You're a faithful, you're a faithful.
Paula (06:50):
That shows your heart.
Tesse (06:51):
Yeah.
Debra (06:52):
But then, it's five and it's my birthday.
I don't care.
Pay attention to them.
Paula (06:58):
But then we need people like you.
I mean, we need people who in partieswhere everyone wants to forget what's
happening, to remind them that look, ifeach one of us care, things we can be
the voice that can create the changesthat we want to talk about, you know.
Debra (07:15):
I think you're both being far too kind to me.
My brother would be saying, no, sheneeds to let, when to let it go.
Paula (07:25):
So we recorded right at the beginning of 2024.
What would you like?
I mean, we're talking aboutdreams for the future.
So December 31st, what would youlike to have experienced between
now and the end of the year?
Debra (07:39):
Oh what would I like to have experienced?
Paula (07:43):
Between now, what are you looking forward to doing this year in 2024?
What's occurring for you?
Debra (07:48):
Well, there's a lot of big events, big anniversaries in my family this year.
You know, like I'm turning60, my mother's turning 80.
My parents celebrate their60th wedding anniversary.
My nephew is 18, my niece is, 21.
My uncle is 70.
My cousin, other cousin is 61.
Yeah, so there's loads of those.
So I'm really looking forwardto, yeah, us all being together.
(08:09):
I mean, my big, wide, mixed, youknow, race, Anglo Indian Catholic
family is very important to me.
And we're very close, and we stayin touch and things like that.
So like being around them is like, youknow, so that's, so I'm really looking
forward to experiencing that this year.
In terms of personal dreams.
I don't really have sort of personalambition in that sort of sense.
(08:32):
You know, I'm like, there isn't athing I particularly want to do.
There's no different job I want to do.
There's no, you know, I'mincredibly lucky that I feel I've
managed to do a lot of stuff.
Like if I, you know, rolled over deadtomorrow, I wouldn't be full of regret.
Well, I'd be dead, so I wouldn'tbe full of regret, anyway,
but you know what I mean?
I wouldn't be, you know, I wouldn't feellike, well, I never got to, you know.
(08:53):
And there are things I regret, ofcourse, I was never able to be a mother.
So that's really sad for me, you know.
So, yeah, but I wouldn't.
So in terms of dreams myself, notreally, I want dreams more broadly.
I want to see, like people thinkingmore reasonably about things, you know.
People being a bit morethoughtful about stuff.
It's not that we will have toagree with each other, but it's
(09:13):
about the way in which we engage.
I'd really like to see, you know, someof the kind of like, the hatred that
people have certain marginalized groups.
So I'm really uncomfortable and disturbedand upset by the sort of anti trans hatred
that we have in the UK at the moment.
I find it distasteful and difficult.
I don't really understandwhat the, you know, what the.
(09:35):
I understand, I hear what peoplesay, you know, on whichever side you
have to be looking at, but I justhate the whole sort of rhetoric and
nastiness and like pushing people down.
And I would like to see that,and that's just one example.
There are other examples.
I just like to see thatsort of narrative, you know.
You look at things like Israel, Gazaconflict, and you have like people saying
(09:56):
that you've got to take a side, you know,you've got to, and I'm like, the side I'm
taking is the babies and the children.
That's the only side I'm interested in.
You know, and I was talking to somebodythe other day and saying, actually with
this, you don't have to take a side.
You just have to say, thisis a horrible conflict.
I don't really properly understand it, butplease stop killing babies on both sides.
Do you know what I mean?
(10:17):
It's like, I would just like peopleto be a bit more about not who wins,
not who's right and who's wrong.
But look, how do we just move forward?
I would love to see more of that.
You know, how do we fix this?
How do we, how do we seepeople as human beings?
You know, I worry so much aboutthe language that we use, you know.
Or like, you know, when we talkabout illegal migrants and it
(10:38):
drives me crazy, there's no suchthing as an illegal migrant.
There's a migrant orthere's an asylum seeker.
And if they come and their asylumis rejected, then they go back
to wherever they came from.
They're not illegal.
You know, I really dislike thatkind of rhetoric and language
that we use and things like that.
So I would love to seethat change this year.
I'm not sure it will becauseit's an election year.
So I think it's probably goingto get even more polarized.
(11:00):
But, and I think that the work thatwe do in the voluntary sector can
really help with that actually.
You know, and I'm not saying about,you know, when I say don't take sides,
I'm not saying that some things clearlyaren't wrong, or aren't right, sorry.
And some things are clearly wrong.
I get that.
But it's just that whole sort of,I'm in this camp and therefore
this camp can do no wrong.
Well, I'm in this camp andtherefore this camp can do no wrong.
I just, I've never experienced thatas being helpful, you know, so that's
(11:22):
what I really hope for this year.
But I mean, Paula, you and I were chattingon a different occasion, weren't we?
About young people.
You know, I feel so much hope withyoung people, because they just, I
mean, okay sweeping generalization,but they just seem so much more
compassionate and tolerant andunderstanding and more willing to stand
up for what they believe in and more.
(11:42):
And they seem to have amore global outlet, which I
think personally is healthy.
I always think about, it seemed likebuy local, shop local, only local.
I think that's all very well and good.
But what if you come from a country wherethe only thing you can grow is oranges?
You know, so saying like, we'll just doin this area, it's not helping that law.
You know, can't survive on orangesor like, you know, you mustn't
go on holiday to these places,the places that rely on tourism.
(12:03):
Do you see what, you know, I'm also,and I love the fact that our young
people are very global in their outlook.
And I think that's one of the bigbenefits actually of modern technology.
You know, when I was growing up, wedidn't know what was going on on the
other side of the world, you know.
Most of the young people I know nowhave like regularly in communication in
their video games with somebody who'sin India or who's in Japan or who's in
some other America, some other parts ofthe world that we would never typically,
(12:26):
unless you're pen pals, you know, andlike took weeks to get something back.
So I love the fact that they seemto have a more global outlook.
And I hope that, well, Idon't hope I don't dream.
I know that that will permeatethrough, and I'm confident we will
have better leadership in the world.
with the next, you know, the nextgenerations of young people who
I think are just better peoplethan my generation largely is, and
(12:49):
certainly the generation ahead.
Tesse (12:51):
You know, when you say don't hope, don't dream, it's just as what is, that's
a hope and that's a dream, you know, it's,but the fact that you're saying that means
that it's a possible thing, you know.
Walt Disney's often quoted assaying, "if you can dream it, you
can, you can see it, you can be it".
And I think, I believe that to be true.
You know, our discoursehas got so uncompassionate.
Debra (13:12):
Yes.
Tesse (13:12):
And when I think of you, I think of you as kind and caring, and
kind and caring is actually lookingat people and being empathetic,
seeing how they can be in their shoes.
And also seeing on stuff, you know,and so one of the things I'm pretty
curious about is given the life thatyou have led and you're leading, you've
(13:35):
mentioned to us that this is going to bethe year where you turn the big six o.
Debra (13:40):
Yeah.
Tesse (13:40):
Yay.
And what would your older self sayto your younger self knowing what
you are experiencing now and you haveexperienced, what would you be saying?
Debra (13:50):
This too shall pass.
You know, that don't get too in despairabout the bad times because they will
go, and don't get too excited about thegood times because they will also go.
You know, that life hasa habit of doing this.
I would say to my younger self, listenmore, Debs, you know, don't be so.
I mean, I'm dogmatic now andI've softened Tesse and Paula.
(14:11):
Can you imagine what I waslike when I was in my twenties?
Tesse (14:14):
Dynamic
Debra (14:15):
Well, I'm such a know it all now, you know, and let me tell
you my twenties, I knew everythingbetter than anyone else, you know?
So I would go back to my younger selfand I say, listen more and get the,
actually, you know, very little, bemore open to those sorts of things.
I would say I struggled a lot withmental health in my young years.
(14:35):
I had a massive breakdown whenI was in my early thirties.
And it turned out that I'd had amental health issue since I was very
young, but it's just never been pickedup because back in those days it
wasn't recognized in young people.
Now that when I ran away ordisappeared, I'd lock myself in my room.
I wouldn't get out of bed fordays, you know, put that down to
just being a teenager or tantrum.
And actually it was muchmore serious than that.
I would go back to myself and say, tellthe truth about how you're feeling,
(14:59):
you know, and go and get the help thatyou need rather than just keep going.
And I would also say to myself, don'tbelieve what other people say about
you, whether it's either good or bad.
You know, my grandmother alwaysused to say, what other people think
of you is none of your business.
And I just think that, yeah,it's super helpful, actually.
If they think I'm amazing, ifthey think I'm terrible, that's
about them, not actually about me.
(15:20):
What's much more importantis what I think about myself.
You know, and so to not be fooledby the people who say, you know,
you're fabulous and then turn aroundand stab you in the back or, and
not to be broken by the people whosay you're absolutely awful, who may
end up, you know, being, it's like.
You have to look yourself in themirror and say, right, Debs, these
are the bits of you that you knoware not nice and you could work on.
And these are the bits ofyou that you're proud of, and
(15:42):
you can enhance those things.
And I think that's also real proper,which I think I've come to now as I'm
older, but when I was younger, I'mnot sure I was properly self aware.
I'm not sure I really understood.
You know, it's like, I alwaysfelt I was in the right.
I always justified my own behavior evenwhen that behavior was really poor.
And instead of being able tosay, actually, Debra, you said
that horrible thing becauseyou wanted to hurt that person.
(16:04):
You know, and being honestabout it and recognizing that we
all do those things sometimes.
And yeah, so I think I would sayto myself, paying more attention to
what you think about you rather thanwhat other people think about you.
Tesse (16:15):
Oh, I think that's an amazing response.
Paula, you know, you've met Debra.
Debra was one of our first everpodcast guests on "TesseTalk" and
kindly has come back and I stoppedour discussions and our conversations.
How do you see, how doyou experience Debra?
Paula (16:33):
Oh my word, she said something that her grandma said and then she
ended the last sentence saying itabout, you know, pay more attention
to what you think about yourself thanwhat other people think about you.
And so I wrap that up with saying, I seeDebra as funny, but pragmatic, very wise,
probably not recognizing how wise she is.
You give a lot more tip and youalways say, do I talk, you ask
(16:57):
sometimes whether you talk a lot.
No.
You don't talk a lot.
You say a lot of things thatmake practical sense and are
very impactful to many people.
And so what do I think about Debra?
I think that she's, and now you have tobelieve this because one thing you said.
Debra (17:18):
If you're going to say something negative, Paula, I'm not listening.
I'm not listening.
Paula (17:23):
Oh my gosh, I think I'm going to borrow Tesse's word.
She said at the beginning that "Debrastic", which means fantastic and Debra.
You're unique.
You're yourself.
You're truthful.
You believe in saying the truth,but saying it in ways that are not
(17:44):
just practical, but they're helpfulto those who you are speaking with.
And I believe in listening to you thatyou know you are someone who also is
very good with taking feed forward.
Is it what we called it?
A feed?
Yeah.
Tesse (17:58):
Feed forward.
Paula (17:59):
You believe in feedback, but in the way that it should be helpful.
And so I can see, I asked you thisquestion, what do you think your
experiences would be when you lookback at, on December 31st, 2024?
I see a woman who wasalways willing to learn.
And to me, that's moreof what the world needs.
People who are willing to learn,take what they hear, muse on it
(18:21):
and spit it out or give it backin ways that can help mankind.
So that's my summary of Debra.
Tesse (18:27):
Debra.
Can you believe it?
Paula (18:30):
And please believe it.
Debra (18:35):
I believe you believe it, Paula.
Whether it's true aboutme, I'm not so sure.
Paula (18:38):
Aren't we all?
Debra (18:39):
I'm in my own head.
I know all the horriblethoughts that I think about.
Tesse (18:43):
You know, Debra, I'm so glad that Paula reflects back what she sees.
And I, at the beginning, Ireflected back what I saw and
what I still continue to see.
But when I think about you and that rayof sunshine that I was thinking about,
Is it the heart that you have, but youare unconditionally yourself, and that
helps others around you, includingme, to be unconditionally ourselves.
(19:04):
Because that kind of embrace, that kindof acceptance, you know, of you as you,
knowing that perfection doesn't exist,but knowing that you can be and strive
to be your best self, knowing that thereare days when that is not always going
to be the best version of you on the day.
I love that.
And when I thought of the kind of topic,dreams for the future, I actually thought
(19:27):
you are a dream, because if we are that,then the world would be a much kinder,
much brighter, much more compassionateand functional space, a place to be.
Debra (19:37):
Oh wow.
Paula (19:38):
I say amen to that.
A double amen.
Tesse (19:41):
Yeah.
Debra (19:41):
We just need the young, don't we?
We need the young, brave andbold and kind and compassionate.
Tesse (19:47):
And you have the competence to go with it.
Competent, you know.
Debra (19:51):
I thought after this, bits of my body are falling apart.
You know, I'm constantly needing to pee.
It does not belong to me.
It belongs to the younger lot, honestly.
Tesse (20:01):
This belongs to you, not me.
Paula over to you.
Paula (20:12):
Oh boy.
So as we wrap up this conversation,I mean, we've heard, I mean, I've
learned so much more about you today.
What words of wisdom do you think youwould like to share with our visitors?
There I go, with ourviewers and our listeners.
Okay.
Let me rephrase that.
Now, because we're talking aboutdreams for the future, just give
us two words that you would liketo share with our listeners who
(20:36):
are thinking about the future thatyou can see that will be practical.
If you were the prime minister today,that would be practical for 2024.
Just two words.
Debra (20:46):
Well, two words is too hard for me, Paula.
Tesse (20:48):
I love it.
I love it
Debra (20:52):
I would say, firstly, be flexible.
I can't bear it when people say,stick to the plan, stick to the plan.
It's like plans are nonsense.
Planning is all right.
But like, you know, stick to yourprinciples, but change your plan
because circumstances change.
And I think that's truefor you in your own life.
Like if, for example, when I was veryyoung, all I wanted to be was an actress,
(21:13):
and I also wanted to write books.
Those were my two dreams.
And I never ended up being an actress,and I never ended up being an author of
fiction books, which I always wanted to.
But I have ended upbeing a public speaker.
So doing a lot of performances onstages, talking to people about stuff.
And also I've written alot of management books.
So the universe has a very strange wayof delivering for you what you wanted,
(21:38):
it just doesn't necessarily presentin the way in which you imagined it
would when you were 10, 20, 30, 40.
So like, so get that you'reprobably are achieving your dreams.
It's just not necessarily manifestingthe way in which you thought they would.
So that's the first thing.
I think the second thing is, which refer,you know, to the thing you said before,
but it's about just don't stop hoping.
(22:01):
You know, it's like withouthope, the situation is hopeless.
You know, it's like, you've always got tohave hope, because there always is hope.
As long as you'rebreathing, there is hope.
As long as there is, you know, yeah,that there is always, always hope.
Yeah.
And I suppose really practicallyget a reputation for being somebody
who people want to work with.
(22:23):
So think about who are the sortsof people you want to work with.
And most of us want to work withpeople who are enthusiastic, positive,
willing to roll up their sleeves.
Like, don't do it.
It's not my job.
It's your job.
You know, most of us want towork with those kinds of people.
And if you want to get on in your career,being that kind of person is what's going
to get you promoted, you know, for all,everybody thinks otherwise, you know, it's
(22:45):
not brand nosing or anything like that.
It's about the fact that if you justenthusiastic, if you're somebody who's
always like points out why it can'tbe done, or what the problems are, or
all the difficulties are in the way.
Nobody wants to work with peoplelike that because they drag you down.
We don't want to be dragged down.
We want to be dragged up.
So have a reputation saying,yeah, that's a massive challenge,
but we'll find a way around it.
(23:06):
Or, okay, I know that's gonewrong, but what we need to do is
think about how we can fix it.
You know, be that person, have thatattitude and you will, and even if you
don't get to the, you know, run theblooming country or ever who'd want to,
to be fair, you will always feel goodabout yourself because you'll always
know that you gave everything a good goand you tried it and you didn't sort of
give up, so it can't be done, you know.
(23:26):
It's too difficult.
I haven't got enough money.
I haven't got enough people.
I haven't got enough resources.
And then show me somebody who says,I've got plenty of everything,
you know, even rich people.
Well, definitely rich peoplenever ever have enough money.
You know what I mean?
So need that kind of person.
So Paula, you said two words.
I think that was about 202.
Tesse (23:45):
I think paula's suspected it wouldn't be that.
I'd call it a trick question.
Paula (23:56):
I'm a mathematician.
I love
Tesse (23:58):
Inspirational, Debra!
Paula (24:00):
That was exponential.
You took two and you took itto the 10th power or more.
I love it.
So I love, what I'm going to endwith is summarizing the three
things that I heard from you.
Change the plans, but stick with yourprinciples because life continues.
Life goes on.
Don't stop hoping.
That's the essence of life.
(24:20):
And be the person that people want,get a reputation for being the type
of person that people want to bearound because of your quality.
What better way to end this show.
Tesse (24:30):
Wow.
So "Debrastic"
. Paula: Yeah.
So thank you so much.
We want you all, our listeners,to continue listening and tuning
in to "TesseLeads", because onthis show, you hear people in
their authentic, authentic way.
We ask that you head over to "ApplePodcasts", "Google Podcasts",
(24:51):
"Spotify", anywhere that you listento podcasts and click subscribe.
We'd love when you do that.
And if you have found"TesseLeads" helpful, who hasn't?
Please let us know in your reviews.
If you have any questions or topicsyou'd love us to cover, send us a note.
And if you'd like to be a guest onour show, head over to our website,
which is simply "TesseLeads",and you can apply there.
(25:14):
Debra, you are the best.
What is it?
Debrastic?
Debrastic, yes.
Debra (25:20):
It will never catch on.
It doesn't matter howmany times you say it.
Tesse (25:23):
No, I know it won't catch on, but it catches on for both of us.
And I mean, you just needa few to change the world.
So you are absolutely Debrastic, honestly.
Debra (25:32):
Saying that word makes its way into the Oxford English dictionary.
Paula (25:39):
There you go.
Uh huh.
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