February 11, 2025 • 29 mins
In her journey towards courage Fran Borg-Wheeler talks about her struggles, her successes and why she is passionate about heartcentred leadership.
“I wanted to be a barrister. So, I went and did a law degree and found myself being offered opportunities to do volunteering work. These days, a focus on thriving is one of my core priorities alongside serving and supporting others. I talk openly about having mental health problems. My mental health challenges are in the background all the time. About two years ago, I had quite an acute bout of depression and anxiety.”
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula (00:01):
Welcome everyone to "TesseLeads" with your host Tesse
Akpeki and co host me Paula Okonneh.
"TesseLeads" is a safe, sensitive,and supportive place and space
to share, hear, and tell yourstories and your experiences.
(00:22):
We at "TesseLeads" get super curiousabout the dilemmas that shape our
future and your future, and thejourneys that all of us are on together.
The theme today is "Towards Courage,Fran's Journey", and the name of
our guest is Fran Borg Wheeler.
(00:45):
So, why don't I do this?
Let me ask Fran to tell us aboutherself because there's no one
better than Fran to do that.
So welcome to the show, Fran.
Fran (00:55):
Thank you very much.
Lovely to be here in person withTesse, and virtually with you, Paula.
Paula (01:01):
Yep.
So good.
Fran (01:03):
So I'm Fran, as you rightly said, and I'm founding director
of "Heart Centred Leaders".
And my background was that I rana small but perfectly formed youth
charity for many years and that ledme to set up a business to support
(01:23):
other charity leaders and their teams.
Paula (01:27):
Awesome.
And Tesse was the onewho invited you here.
So Tesse?
Tesse (01:32):
Yeah, I am super, super excited.
If it's possible to be more excited.
Because Fran and I are together, and we'remeeting for the first time in person.
It is amazing.
And we met online during COVID.
Fran (01:48):
We did.
Tesse (01:48):
And we talked a number of times on the phone, on Zoom, etc.
But meeting in person is extraspecial and you don't disappoint Fran.
You know, meeting you, I've seenyou're such a person of heart.
And I'm very curious about whatyour journey has been towards, you
know, heart centered leadership,what's led you down this route?
Fran (02:13):
I do think that sometimes we're not too sure about what
has led us down that path.
So initially, I think what I was awareof was that I wanted to be a barrister.
So I went and did a law degreeand found myself being offered
(02:34):
opportunities to do volunteering work.
And as I did a number of voluntaryplaces, I felt that my heart was being
drawn towards the charity sector.
So I didn't pursue a career as abarrister, and instead I went and
did a number of delivery roles,mental health, homelessness, missing
(02:54):
persons for a little while, probation.
And then I got the opportunity to applyfor what was then my dream job, which
was running a young people's charity.
So that's what I did.
I had never been a manager before.
I'd never raised a pound of fundingin a role for a charity, but overnight
(03:17):
I was responsible for the startingthe services, all the fundraising.
And so it was a case of beingthrown in deep end and you either
swim or you drown, don't you?
So, you know, I was determined, I wasvery passionate about course and I
learned quickly how not to do things.
I think you have to learn bymaking a mistake, don't you?
(03:40):
That's how I like to learn.
And that's why I was therefor quite a long time.
I was there for 13 years becauseI didn't have a lot of support.
We didn't have a budget fortraining, coaching or, so you
kind of learn as you went along.
I looked out for people that maybeinspired me in other charities and I'd
(04:01):
try and get a coffee with them, or I'd tryand snatch a conversation when I could.
And so it's quite a slowlearning curve that way around.
So yeah, I think when I realizedthat my sell by date was coming up.
I'd been there long enough.
I needed to let somebodyelse kind of take over.
(04:22):
I then wanted to help othercharity leaders and their
teams to boost their impact.
Because I think whilst you're spendingall that energy trying to find
out how you should do everything,It's almost wasted energy that you
could be focusing on the impact.
And then the other piece for me, I had anumber of knee strokes during my tenure
(04:45):
as CEO, and it was only in the last fewyears of running the charity that I had
realized, actually you do not have todrive yourself into the ground for your
cause and actually, nor should you,because if you do that, what message am I
giving to the other people following me.
(05:06):
You know, am I telling my team thatthat's how they should be working?
No.
So now in the last four years I'vebeen running my business, I spend
a lot of time supporting otherleaders to learn how to thrive.
That's really important to me.
That's central.
And it's funny because people will cometo me with other problems or challenges
(05:30):
or ambitious goals, but somewherealong the line, that theme will appear.
And then I also want to try andsupport the teams to have more
impact while thriving as well.
So it's combining the two.
So as I, at the outset, I saidto you, sometimes we don't know
what has instigated our journey.
(05:52):
Now that a few years ago, my mompassed away during COVID of cancer.
I started to understand that actuallyperhaps I had been motivated to get into
the sector by my mother's journey, becauseshe had a very difficult childhood.
She'd been what we would nowcall an unaccompanied child or
(06:15):
asylum seeker, and no knowledgeof any family members whatsoever.
Was adopted in a very violenthousehold, and somehow she managed
to survive, get a scholarship to theRoyal College of Music, as a pianist.
And with no success, managedto raise her family and, you
(06:38):
know keep her head held high.
She had a lot of Christian faith,actually, which really helped her.
But I think her, sort of, resilienceand determination and focus and the fact
that she had no support actually reallyI think sparked a sense of injustice
in me and a desire to help people whohad not had the best chance in life.
(07:03):
You know, I look back now andrealize that perhaps actually
that was my driving force.
Tesse (07:10):
That's beautiful.
So what we hear is that the heartcenteredness, the nurtured child of a mum
who, even though she was facing a lot ofadversity, she actually embraced life.
Oh, wow.
That's really, wow.
Paula, what do you, whatcomes across with transit?
(07:33):
Yes.
Paula (07:34):
Listening to you, Fran, I can see that you're a woman of great depth.
And the thing is, out of all thoseexperiences that you had, I guess starting
with your mom, that has channeled youinto the person that you are today.
Because one thing that you said that stoodout for me is that you landed your dream
(07:54):
job as a CEO of young people's charity.
"Youth Concern".
So, and you also mentioned howmany other non profit and other
organizations that you support.
So I'm wondering how does heart centeredleadership support you as a leader?
Because I hear from you all the thingsthat you are doing and things that an
(08:18):
organization that you're supporting, buthow are you supported in what you do?
Fran (08:23):
Yeah, thanks.
That's a great question.
I think firstly, you know, when Ihad the realization that, you know,
thriving as a charity leader isboth a right and a responsibility.
You know, if I'm going to call mybusiness heart centered leaders, then
I have to lead by example myself.
And it does not mean say, I think it'sjob done because it's far from, you know.
(08:48):
I talk openly about myself havingmental health problems and you know,
they're in the background all the time.
But sometimes two years ago,I had quite acute bout of
depression and anxiety again.
And so, you know, these days, a focuson thriving is one of my core priorities
(09:13):
alongside serving and supporting others.
There's no way that wasthe case eight years ago.
You know, it was in the sector, Ithink it's often a service mentality.
You know, and a sort ofafterthought of what do I need?
Because you realize that the need of thebeneficiaries or the organization of this
(09:36):
cause is so much more acute and it's soeasy to neglect over a period of time.
You know, Tesse, you and I weretalking about this beforehand, you
know, stress, overwhelm, burnout,take often years of accumulated
stress and neglecting ourselves.
So that's the first thing I think,you know, I try to walk my talk.
(10:00):
And as I said, I don't do itall the time and that's okay.
One of the key tools I've learned, Ithink the most powerful single tool
that I've added is self compassion.
And I remember being in a, I got a placeon a global women's leadership conference
(10:23):
to attend and it was a two day conference.
It was the first time I'd beenaway from home and childcare,
and my daughter was seven.
I haven't been away for liketwo days in those years.
And there was a session on selfcompassion, and I thought, I don't
need to listen to this rubbish.
I should go off and make mycalls, my really important
calls I've got to make for work.
(10:44):
And because I was about to do aPAIRS exercise, my PAIR, my PAIR
said, well, could you wait, please?
I need to do this exercise with you.
So I stayed and it wasreally eye opening to me.
And at the end of that conference, I leftmaking a commitment, two commitments.
We were supposed to make one, buttypical for me at that time, I made two.
One was that I needed to raise amillion pounds to set up a youth
(11:08):
supported accommodation project.
The second one was to learn how totake really good care of myself.
And so that's the first thing, and I couldtell you lots of different things I do.
I don't do them all the timebecause consistency is not my thing.
And again, I've learnedthat actually that's okay.
It doesn't have to be that I employthe same tools every week, every month,
(11:31):
if that doesn't suit my character.
You know, if I ask myself thequestion, What do I need today?
That might be to do nothing to dowith self care, just to focus and
get on with the work I've got to do.
That might be okay, but the followingday if I ask, what do I need today?
It might be actually cancel someappointments, go and have a rest, have
(11:53):
a walk, go to my meditation section.
I'm in a gospel choir.
It's, you know, how to bringa bit more joy into your life.
So you can find out what works for you.
I think it's less having to stick torules and really learning to listen to
your heart, your body, and your mind.
(12:15):
Some people would say yoursoul as well, you know.
And really get back intune with what you need.
So that's the first thing.
What else do I do?
I think the other thing I learnedwas that, you know, to draw people
around me that can support me.
You know, I'm not an island.
I'm pretty independent.
(12:35):
I'm useless at tech, for example, oneof the things that are not my strengths.
So, you know, I can either try andbattle with those problems by myself
and get really stressed, or I cancall on my good friend Dawn and ask
her the question and hopefully I canfind a way I can support her too.
You know, so I think drawing thepeople around us, and you know, I'm
(12:57):
inspired by both your partnership,your friendship, and how that
kind of infuses everything you do.
And the quality then of what youdo is so much better because you're
drawing upon each other's strengthsand you're supporting each other.
So in the last year, I've started anumber of collaborations in my work.
(13:17):
I'm a people person, you know, I don'twant to be sat in my little office
by myself on my computer all day.
I want to be interacting with people.
So I think it's identifyingwhat brings you fulfillment?
What brings you joy?
What brings you support?
And trying to draw all thoseelements closer to you, you know.
(13:39):
Does that answer your question?
Paula (13:42):
Yes, you did.
You saw me looking down because I wastaking notes of some of the things
that you said that you have done.
Tesse (13:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you need to work.
Fran (13:53):
I do coaching, Paula, you know.
Tesse (13:54):
I'm looking at Fran and I'm saying, wow, Fran, what brings you joy?
Fran (14:01):
Connection, deep connection.
Actually, I like to be aroundpeople where I feel understood and
I don't have to explain myself.
Yes, good question.
What brings me joy?
You know, if you'd asked me that a yearago, I wouldn't have known too much
because I wasn't in a very good place.
(14:22):
And often times I've struggled toactually work out what brings me joy.
But also I think supporting other peopledoes bring me joy, unless these days in
a rescue mode but more collaborative.
I like being part ofsomething with people.
I like to see if I want tobe part of those people.
(14:44):
I like to feel like I can contribute.
I like there to be some impact.
But on a simple level, you know,what brings me joy, flowers.
I love color.
So I'll stop at the flower stallin the station, King's Cross,
and really look at those blooms.
Like walking my dog.
(15:04):
Clearly, I love to be around mydaughter and other people I love.
And then, more these days aswell, I have more peace of mind,
touch wood, most of the time.
So I do actually like having a bitof downtime where I can do a bit of
journaling or I can just, even ifit's 10, 15 minutes to go, okay, it's
(15:25):
absolutely nothing I have to be doing now.
Oh what do I feel like doing now?
That certain connection brings me joy.
Tesse (15:35):
You know, I'm looking at you because I have the privilege of being
the side of the same room and I lookat you and I can see the joy emerging.
You know, I'm super curious,what would your present Fran
say to your younger Fran?
Fran (15:48):
Hmm, it's going to be a bloody surprise.
I have to put my seatbelt on!
Yeah, no, what would I say?
Yeah, I think I would say that, butmaybe I would try and learn how to
let go of guilt quicker and do thatas a, you know, the let going process.
(16:13):
I've been to a lot of meditation workshopsrecently, and you know, the Buddhist.
So I'm not a Buddhist and I don't presumeto be an expert in their philosophy.
But you know, there's a lot of teachingabout not holding on to that negativity
that we feed ourselves, that inner critic.
And, yeah, I think that innervoice has been pretty strong
(16:36):
in my life at certain points.
And I'm learning how to let go of that.
But I think if I could have learnedthat sooner, phew, that would
have really helped and learnedabout self compassion sooner.
I think that would be akey learning actually.
And maybe to act when I'm not happyquicker, or when you're starting to
(17:02):
feel like you're struggling, again,picking up when the problem is small.
I'm good at doing that with otherpeople, but I'm only in my 50s now
learning to do that for myself.
Because I think with beingquite determined, don't
like to give up on things.
And sometimes that can bea detriment to yourself.
(17:24):
So maybe just knowing when to quit orwhen to come back a bit, you know, and,
rather than feeling like you have tocontinue, I think would be a lesson.
Tesse (17:35):
That's lovely, because it's very practical, isn't it?
You know, we were talking about thebooks that say "Get Better In A Hundred
Days, Find Peace During A Hundred Days".
We were talking about how unhealthy it is.
Fran (17:48):
Exactly.
Tesse (17:50):
This didn't happen in 100 days, did it?
Fran (17:52):
No, no, no.
Paula (17:57):
I love that question about what did your present
self say to your younger self?
And what you've discovered along the way,you know, that not holding on to things.
There's one, self compassion,you brought that up twice.
And when not happy, acting, youknow, more quickly, and recognizing
(18:18):
that I'm doing something about that.
Which leads me, because Tesse says she'sseen such joy in your whole persona
as she's in the same room as you.
I'm jealous.
Oh, I'm even morejealous to see you again.
Fran (18:32):
Well, we'll come over and join you in Switzerland.
Paula (18:34):
I know, I know, I know.
I'm going to ask you, so whatare you celebrating right now?
Apart from being with Tesse.
Fran (18:43):
You like difficult questions, don't you?
You know, I'm, this sounds a bit cheesy,but I'm trying to celebrate, this really
does sound bad, like the gift of life.
Because I think when you start,as we were saying earlier, you
know, emerging from a dark patch.
I think it's about remembering tobe grateful for the tiny things.
(19:08):
And, you know, there's periodsof time where I'll go through
actively practicing gratitude.
And yet the little things, isn't it?
You know, I, was grateful for thesunshine and 10 minutes sitting
on the bridge waiting for thisappointment and I just took a moment
to think, okay, aren't I fortunateto have that sunshine on my face?
(19:30):
You know, when I was walkingthe dog yesterday, I tried to
notice the colors on the leaves.
I remember a few people describing thisas glimmers and how to savor the glimmers.
So I guess the little things.
And the fact, I think freedomis something that I value.
(19:53):
You know, especially when there's,well people around us, you know,
I look around and I'm very acutelydrawn towards people in poverty.
In London, for example, you know,they don't have the freedom.
I was thinking today to get on thetube, like I can just tap my phone.
And then if we think further afield,and you know, Gaza, for example, I mean,
(20:15):
for goodness sake, how fortunate are weto be able to have freedom of movement.
Freedom to have a roof over our homesand, you know, roof over our heads, sorry.
And so I think the little things.
And of course I can do that because I'min a better state of mind right now.
Quite difficult if you're not.
(20:35):
So I'm not, this is certainly notpreaching to other people, it's
just what I am trying to celebrate.
But also I like to celebrate, youknow, I'm a leadership coach, I
like to celebrate the successes.
I don't always like that word,but, the important things for
other people that I'm working with.
You know, when there's so much tobe done, when people are working
(20:57):
in the charity sector, it's so easyfor them to focus on the hundred
and one things that they have to do.
And I like creating space so that peoplecan focus on look what you have achieved.
Look at the impact you've had for otherpeople, feel good about that, feel proud.
So sometimes alongside my gratitudepractice, I also do prouds and I'll
(21:21):
write a list of little things thatI'm proud of, especially if I'm not
feeling too great, I try and makemyself find out the little things.
And I'll do that withmy coaching clients too.
Because when, I think culturally, we'venot been taught to, especially as women
I think, it used to be called blowingour own trumpet, I don't know whether
(21:41):
that's a phrase you use or not Paula,but you know, we're taught that's
kind of being arrogant, aren't we?
But actually I think, I'm not sureif self esteem is the right word, but
just recognizing the gifts and theunique qualities that you bring to
(22:01):
the party, you know, is so important.
Because if everybody was able torecognize that in themselves, imagine
the knock on effect and the impacteverybody could bring together, you know.
So yeah, celebratingthat, yeah, little things.
Tesse (22:22):
You know, this is lovely and Paula and I, you know, we've
been friends for so many years.
But one of the things you said, wecelebrate our friendships and we don't
end up taking each other for granted.
Fran (22:34):
That's lovely.
Tesse (22:34):
And coming back to what you say, I have different ways of
celebrating, you know, on the bad day.
So, on a good day, I'll ask people whoI've met, put something on LinkedIn.
Put something on LinkedIn.
And what I do on a day when I'm notfeeling so great is to go to LinkedIn.
Fran (22:55):
That's amazing.
Tesse (22:55):
And see what they say.
And yeah it's not so much aboutpeople seeing, it's about me
seeing it when it's not so great.
Yeah.
You know, Paula, what are yourpractices of lifting yourself
up on a not so good day?
Paula (23:08):
This may sound cliche, and it may sound like I'm repeating what Fran said,
but it is relishing in simple thingsof life, like the sun you mentioned.
Sunshine on your face.
You know having a roof over myhead, that's a big deal because
(23:28):
I see so many homeless people.
We don't say homeless anymore, wesay people with housing insecurity.
And it's really easy in theWestern world to become homeless.
You know, not have a roof over yourhead you know, really, really easy.
Gratitude point I look at my childrenand I'm grateful for them in my life.
(23:51):
I think about my siblings and myfriends and my family, I'm grateful.
Because, you know, you mentionedearlier that your mom was adopted
and she didn't have any livingrelatives that she knew of.
And you know, for me, family means a lot.
I love family.
I have so much family around me.
(24:14):
And so these are things that give mejoy and help me to celebrate life.
Because life is tough, butmaking a choice, my mom used to
say, what did she used to say?
She used to say, happiness is a choice.
You could be in a palace and be sounhappy, you could be outside of the
palace and, you know, be so joyful.
(24:36):
So I've always held on to that.
So I look for the littlethings and so, and enjoy them.
Fran (24:42):
That's lovely.
And that sounds like, anotherpractice, actually setting intentions.
You know, thinking about howyou want to feel in a day.
My mentor is a Polish transformationalcoach called Asha Goner, and she
does great intentional practice,and on good days when I get up and
(25:03):
I'm feeling in the zone, I'll writesome intentional practice and say,
in order to feel, let's say, calm,confident today, what do I need to do?
How do I need to be?
And that really helps aswell to be very intentional.
So yeah, it's what you're saying,great, Paula, you know, around happiness
(25:25):
being a choice, we forget, don't we?
And, you know, it's all well and goodto say that and then we'll have a
really terrible day and everythingwill go out the window and we'll be
annoyed or impatient or stressed.
You know, that's just human nature.
We're not, I think we shouldn'taim for perfection, should we?
We just, it boils in, what'sthe word, incremental.
(25:45):
So yeah, I mean a little that we can find.
Tesse (25:49):
I love, I love the fact that you talk intentional, you
know, setting the intension.
It's that brings it together andbrought it together for me has
been accountability partnerships.
I'm actually setting those up so thatwe hold each other to account, and
it's not just on the compliance piece.
It's on the piece whereby when we'rehaving that not so great day, or not
(26:14):
so great experience, we talk to ouraccountability partner who reminds
us about what happened last weekthat we were celebrating, which in
those towns had become rusted, right?
So there is something aboutsetting up the support structures
for us in the ups and the downs.
Fran (26:29):
Yes, absolutely.
Tesse (26:31):
When the sun is shining, we start building the roof.
Fran (26:34):
Yeah, I like that.
Tesse (26:36):
So Paula, over to you.
Paula (26:38):
Yeah, I can't believe that we are almost at the end
of this wonderful session.
And so I thought we'd wrap up,Fran, just about four words,
what story can you remember?
We talked about, you know, Tesse talkedabout accountability partners reminding
us of how last week or two weekspreviously you were celebrating something.
(27:02):
I know that your heart goes out to,you know, young people's charity,
the youth concerns, people withmental health, learning difficulties,
missing people and so on.
But in just four words, and you may say,I'm making life really hard for you.
What story or what memory gives yougreatest joy when you look back?
(27:23):
What's one memory?
So let me give you an example.
I'm in Switzerland.
I'm saying eating chocolates in the night.
Fran (27:34):
I think being in the drop in center with a lot of the young people
and seeing them build their confidenceand dreams and them feeling supported.
Yeah.
I do like that.
Paula (27:50):
I love that.
I love that.
I love young people.
Now I live with younger people.
My sister says, don't say young people.
You're young, younger people.
Fran (27:57):
That's nice.
I have to adopt that.
Paula (28:02):
Yeah.
I love younger people.
They give me so much, I mean,joy and their perspectives.
You know, sometimes you, youfeed into their lives, but they
feed into my life big time.
Fran (28:12):
Yeah.
The energy is great.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
Paula (28:16):
I love that.
I love that.
Oh, and so with that, we want to sayto all our listeners, if you have just
listened to Fran, you can see thatprecious stories and lives matter.
We encourage you to share themwith us just like she did.
And for our listeners, we also askthat you head over to "Apple Podcasts"
(28:37):
"Google podcasts", "Spotify", "YouTube",anywhere that you listen to podcasts
and please subscribe to our podcast.
And if you have found"TesseLeads" helpful, please
let us know through a review.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
cover, please send us a note.
(28:58):
And again, I'll stress if you'd liketo be a guest on the show, just like
Fran has been, please head over toour website, "Tesse Leads", and the
website address is "www.tesseleads.
com".
And apply there.
Thank you again, Fran.
This has been awesome.
Fran (29:17):
Thank you for having me.
Tesse (29:18):
Fran, you're amazing.
Thank you so much for being awesome.
Welcome everyone to "TesseLeads" with your host Tesse
Akpeki and co host me Paula Okonneh.
"TesseLeads" is a safe, sensitive,and supportive place and space
to share, hear, and tell yourstories and your experiences.
(00:22):
We at "TesseLeads" get super curiousabout the dilemmas that shape our
future and your future, and thejourneys that all of us are on together.
The theme today is "Towards Courage,Fran's Journey", and the name of
our guest is Fran Borg Wheeler.
(00:45):
So, why don't I do this?
Let me ask Fran to tell us aboutherself because there's no one
better than Fran to do that.
So welcome to the show, Fran.
Fran (00:55):
Thank you very much.
Lovely to be here in person withTesse, and virtually with you, Paula.
Paula (01:01):
Yep.
So good.
Fran (01:03):
So I'm Fran, as you rightly said, and I'm founding director
of "Heart Centred Leaders".
And my background was that I rana small but perfectly formed youth
charity for many years and that ledme to set up a business to support
(01:23):
other charity leaders and their teams.
Paula (01:27):
Awesome.
And Tesse was the onewho invited you here.
So Tesse?
Tesse (01:32):
Yeah, I am super, super excited.
If it's possible to be more excited.
Because Fran and I are together, and we'remeeting for the first time in person.
It is amazing.
And we met online during COVID.
Fran (01:48):
We did.
Tesse (01:48):
And we talked a number of times on the phone, on Zoom, etc.
But meeting in person is extraspecial and you don't disappoint Fran.
You know, meeting you, I've seenyou're such a person of heart.
And I'm very curious about whatyour journey has been towards, you
know, heart centered leadership,what's led you down this route?
Fran (02:13):
I do think that sometimes we're not too sure about what
has led us down that path.
So initially, I think what I was awareof was that I wanted to be a barrister.
So I went and did a law degreeand found myself being offered
(02:34):
opportunities to do volunteering work.
And as I did a number of voluntaryplaces, I felt that my heart was being
drawn towards the charity sector.
So I didn't pursue a career as abarrister, and instead I went and
did a number of delivery roles,mental health, homelessness, missing
(02:54):
persons for a little while, probation.
And then I got the opportunity to applyfor what was then my dream job, which
was running a young people's charity.
So that's what I did.
I had never been a manager before.
I'd never raised a pound of fundingin a role for a charity, but overnight
(03:17):
I was responsible for the startingthe services, all the fundraising.
And so it was a case of beingthrown in deep end and you either
swim or you drown, don't you?
So, you know, I was determined, I wasvery passionate about course and I
learned quickly how not to do things.
I think you have to learn bymaking a mistake, don't you?
(03:40):
That's how I like to learn.
And that's why I was therefor quite a long time.
I was there for 13 years becauseI didn't have a lot of support.
We didn't have a budget fortraining, coaching or, so you
kind of learn as you went along.
I looked out for people that maybeinspired me in other charities and I'd
(04:01):
try and get a coffee with them, or I'd tryand snatch a conversation when I could.
And so it's quite a slowlearning curve that way around.
So yeah, I think when I realizedthat my sell by date was coming up.
I'd been there long enough.
I needed to let somebodyelse kind of take over.
(04:22):
I then wanted to help othercharity leaders and their
teams to boost their impact.
Because I think whilst you're spendingall that energy trying to find
out how you should do everything,It's almost wasted energy that you
could be focusing on the impact.
And then the other piece for me, I had anumber of knee strokes during my tenure
(04:45):
as CEO, and it was only in the last fewyears of running the charity that I had
realized, actually you do not have todrive yourself into the ground for your
cause and actually, nor should you,because if you do that, what message am I
giving to the other people following me.
(05:06):
You know, am I telling my team thatthat's how they should be working?
No.
So now in the last four years I'vebeen running my business, I spend
a lot of time supporting otherleaders to learn how to thrive.
That's really important to me.
That's central.
And it's funny because people will cometo me with other problems or challenges
(05:30):
or ambitious goals, but somewherealong the line, that theme will appear.
And then I also want to try andsupport the teams to have more
impact while thriving as well.
So it's combining the two.
So as I, at the outset, I saidto you, sometimes we don't know
what has instigated our journey.
(05:52):
Now that a few years ago, my mompassed away during COVID of cancer.
I started to understand that actuallyperhaps I had been motivated to get into
the sector by my mother's journey, becauseshe had a very difficult childhood.
She'd been what we would nowcall an unaccompanied child or
(06:15):
asylum seeker, and no knowledgeof any family members whatsoever.
Was adopted in a very violenthousehold, and somehow she managed
to survive, get a scholarship to theRoyal College of Music, as a pianist.
And with no success, managedto raise her family and, you
(06:38):
know keep her head held high.
She had a lot of Christian faith,actually, which really helped her.
But I think her, sort of, resilienceand determination and focus and the fact
that she had no support actually reallyI think sparked a sense of injustice
in me and a desire to help people whohad not had the best chance in life.
(07:03):
You know, I look back now andrealize that perhaps actually
that was my driving force.
Tesse (07:10):
That's beautiful.
So what we hear is that the heartcenteredness, the nurtured child of a mum
who, even though she was facing a lot ofadversity, she actually embraced life.
Oh, wow.
That's really, wow.
Paula, what do you, whatcomes across with transit?
(07:33):
Yes.
Paula (07:34):
Listening to you, Fran, I can see that you're a woman of great depth.
And the thing is, out of all thoseexperiences that you had, I guess starting
with your mom, that has channeled youinto the person that you are today.
Because one thing that you said that stoodout for me is that you landed your dream
(07:54):
job as a CEO of young people's charity.
"Youth Concern".
So, and you also mentioned howmany other non profit and other
organizations that you support.
So I'm wondering how does heart centeredleadership support you as a leader?
Because I hear from you all the thingsthat you are doing and things that an
(08:18):
organization that you're supporting, buthow are you supported in what you do?
Fran (08:23):
Yeah, thanks.
That's a great question.
I think firstly, you know, when Ihad the realization that, you know,
thriving as a charity leader isboth a right and a responsibility.
You know, if I'm going to call mybusiness heart centered leaders, then
I have to lead by example myself.
And it does not mean say, I think it'sjob done because it's far from, you know.
(08:48):
I talk openly about myself havingmental health problems and you know,
they're in the background all the time.
But sometimes two years ago,I had quite acute bout of
depression and anxiety again.
And so, you know, these days, a focuson thriving is one of my core priorities
(09:13):
alongside serving and supporting others.
There's no way that wasthe case eight years ago.
You know, it was in the sector, Ithink it's often a service mentality.
You know, and a sort ofafterthought of what do I need?
Because you realize that the need of thebeneficiaries or the organization of this
(09:36):
cause is so much more acute and it's soeasy to neglect over a period of time.
You know, Tesse, you and I weretalking about this beforehand, you
know, stress, overwhelm, burnout,take often years of accumulated
stress and neglecting ourselves.
So that's the first thing I think,you know, I try to walk my talk.
(10:00):
And as I said, I don't do itall the time and that's okay.
One of the key tools I've learned, Ithink the most powerful single tool
that I've added is self compassion.
And I remember being in a, I got a placeon a global women's leadership conference
(10:23):
to attend and it was a two day conference.
It was the first time I'd beenaway from home and childcare,
and my daughter was seven.
I haven't been away for liketwo days in those years.
And there was a session on selfcompassion, and I thought, I don't
need to listen to this rubbish.
I should go off and make mycalls, my really important
calls I've got to make for work.
(10:44):
And because I was about to do aPAIRS exercise, my PAIR, my PAIR
said, well, could you wait, please?
I need to do this exercise with you.
So I stayed and it wasreally eye opening to me.
And at the end of that conference, I leftmaking a commitment, two commitments.
We were supposed to make one, buttypical for me at that time, I made two.
One was that I needed to raise amillion pounds to set up a youth
(11:08):
supported accommodation project.
The second one was to learn how totake really good care of myself.
And so that's the first thing, and I couldtell you lots of different things I do.
I don't do them all the timebecause consistency is not my thing.
And again, I've learnedthat actually that's okay.
It doesn't have to be that I employthe same tools every week, every month,
(11:31):
if that doesn't suit my character.
You know, if I ask myself thequestion, What do I need today?
That might be to do nothing to dowith self care, just to focus and
get on with the work I've got to do.
That might be okay, but the followingday if I ask, what do I need today?
It might be actually cancel someappointments, go and have a rest, have
(11:53):
a walk, go to my meditation section.
I'm in a gospel choir.
It's, you know, how to bringa bit more joy into your life.
So you can find out what works for you.
I think it's less having to stick torules and really learning to listen to
your heart, your body, and your mind.
(12:15):
Some people would say yoursoul as well, you know.
And really get back intune with what you need.
So that's the first thing.
What else do I do?
I think the other thing I learnedwas that, you know, to draw people
around me that can support me.
You know, I'm not an island.
I'm pretty independent.
(12:35):
I'm useless at tech, for example, oneof the things that are not my strengths.
So, you know, I can either try andbattle with those problems by myself
and get really stressed, or I cancall on my good friend Dawn and ask
her the question and hopefully I canfind a way I can support her too.
You know, so I think drawing thepeople around us, and you know, I'm
(12:57):
inspired by both your partnership,your friendship, and how that
kind of infuses everything you do.
And the quality then of what youdo is so much better because you're
drawing upon each other's strengthsand you're supporting each other.
So in the last year, I've started anumber of collaborations in my work.
(13:17):
I'm a people person, you know, I don'twant to be sat in my little office
by myself on my computer all day.
I want to be interacting with people.
So I think it's identifyingwhat brings you fulfillment?
What brings you joy?
What brings you support?
And trying to draw all thoseelements closer to you, you know.
(13:39):
Does that answer your question?
Paula (13:42):
Yes, you did.
You saw me looking down because I wastaking notes of some of the things
that you said that you have done.
Tesse (13:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you need to work.
Fran (13:53):
I do coaching, Paula, you know.
Tesse (13:54):
I'm looking at Fran and I'm saying, wow, Fran, what brings you joy?
Fran (14:01):
Connection, deep connection.
Actually, I like to be aroundpeople where I feel understood and
I don't have to explain myself.
Yes, good question.
What brings me joy?
You know, if you'd asked me that a yearago, I wouldn't have known too much
because I wasn't in a very good place.
(14:22):
And often times I've struggled toactually work out what brings me joy.
But also I think supporting other peopledoes bring me joy, unless these days in
a rescue mode but more collaborative.
I like being part ofsomething with people.
I like to see if I want tobe part of those people.
(14:44):
I like to feel like I can contribute.
I like there to be some impact.
But on a simple level, you know,what brings me joy, flowers.
I love color.
So I'll stop at the flower stallin the station, King's Cross,
and really look at those blooms.
Like walking my dog.
(15:04):
Clearly, I love to be around mydaughter and other people I love.
And then, more these days aswell, I have more peace of mind,
touch wood, most of the time.
So I do actually like having a bitof downtime where I can do a bit of
journaling or I can just, even ifit's 10, 15 minutes to go, okay, it's
(15:25):
absolutely nothing I have to be doing now.
Oh what do I feel like doing now?
That certain connection brings me joy.
Tesse (15:35):
You know, I'm looking at you because I have the privilege of being
the side of the same room and I lookat you and I can see the joy emerging.
You know, I'm super curious,what would your present Fran
say to your younger Fran?
Fran (15:48):
Hmm, it's going to be a bloody surprise.
I have to put my seatbelt on!
Yeah, no, what would I say?
Yeah, I think I would say that, butmaybe I would try and learn how to
let go of guilt quicker and do thatas a, you know, the let going process.
(16:13):
I've been to a lot of meditation workshopsrecently, and you know, the Buddhist.
So I'm not a Buddhist and I don't presumeto be an expert in their philosophy.
But you know, there's a lot of teachingabout not holding on to that negativity
that we feed ourselves, that inner critic.
And, yeah, I think that innervoice has been pretty strong
(16:36):
in my life at certain points.
And I'm learning how to let go of that.
But I think if I could have learnedthat sooner, phew, that would
have really helped and learnedabout self compassion sooner.
I think that would be akey learning actually.
And maybe to act when I'm not happyquicker, or when you're starting to
(17:02):
feel like you're struggling, again,picking up when the problem is small.
I'm good at doing that with otherpeople, but I'm only in my 50s now
learning to do that for myself.
Because I think with beingquite determined, don't
like to give up on things.
And sometimes that can bea detriment to yourself.
(17:24):
So maybe just knowing when to quit orwhen to come back a bit, you know, and,
rather than feeling like you have tocontinue, I think would be a lesson.
Tesse (17:35):
That's lovely, because it's very practical, isn't it?
You know, we were talking about thebooks that say "Get Better In A Hundred
Days, Find Peace During A Hundred Days".
We were talking about how unhealthy it is.
Fran (17:48):
Exactly.
Tesse (17:50):
This didn't happen in 100 days, did it?
Fran (17:52):
No, no, no.
Paula (17:57):
I love that question about what did your present
self say to your younger self?
And what you've discovered along the way,you know, that not holding on to things.
There's one, self compassion,you brought that up twice.
And when not happy, acting, youknow, more quickly, and recognizing
(18:18):
that I'm doing something about that.
Which leads me, because Tesse says she'sseen such joy in your whole persona
as she's in the same room as you.
I'm jealous.
Oh, I'm even morejealous to see you again.
Fran (18:32):
Well, we'll come over and join you in Switzerland.
Paula (18:34):
I know, I know, I know.
I'm going to ask you, so whatare you celebrating right now?
Apart from being with Tesse.
Fran (18:43):
You like difficult questions, don't you?
You know, I'm, this sounds a bit cheesy,but I'm trying to celebrate, this really
does sound bad, like the gift of life.
Because I think when you start,as we were saying earlier, you
know, emerging from a dark patch.
I think it's about remembering tobe grateful for the tiny things.
(19:08):
And, you know, there's periodsof time where I'll go through
actively practicing gratitude.
And yet the little things, isn't it?
You know, I, was grateful for thesunshine and 10 minutes sitting
on the bridge waiting for thisappointment and I just took a moment
to think, okay, aren't I fortunateto have that sunshine on my face?
(19:30):
You know, when I was walkingthe dog yesterday, I tried to
notice the colors on the leaves.
I remember a few people describing thisas glimmers and how to savor the glimmers.
So I guess the little things.
And the fact, I think freedomis something that I value.
(19:53):
You know, especially when there's,well people around us, you know,
I look around and I'm very acutelydrawn towards people in poverty.
In London, for example, you know,they don't have the freedom.
I was thinking today to get on thetube, like I can just tap my phone.
And then if we think further afield,and you know, Gaza, for example, I mean,
(20:15):
for goodness sake, how fortunate are weto be able to have freedom of movement.
Freedom to have a roof over our homesand, you know, roof over our heads, sorry.
And so I think the little things.
And of course I can do that because I'min a better state of mind right now.
Quite difficult if you're not.
(20:35):
So I'm not, this is certainly notpreaching to other people, it's
just what I am trying to celebrate.
But also I like to celebrate, youknow, I'm a leadership coach, I
like to celebrate the successes.
I don't always like that word,but, the important things for
other people that I'm working with.
You know, when there's so much tobe done, when people are working
(20:57):
in the charity sector, it's so easyfor them to focus on the hundred
and one things that they have to do.
And I like creating space so that peoplecan focus on look what you have achieved.
Look at the impact you've had for otherpeople, feel good about that, feel proud.
So sometimes alongside my gratitudepractice, I also do prouds and I'll
(21:21):
write a list of little things thatI'm proud of, especially if I'm not
feeling too great, I try and makemyself find out the little things.
And I'll do that withmy coaching clients too.
Because when, I think culturally, we'venot been taught to, especially as women
I think, it used to be called blowingour own trumpet, I don't know whether
(21:41):
that's a phrase you use or not Paula,but you know, we're taught that's
kind of being arrogant, aren't we?
But actually I think, I'm not sureif self esteem is the right word, but
just recognizing the gifts and theunique qualities that you bring to
(22:01):
the party, you know, is so important.
Because if everybody was able torecognize that in themselves, imagine
the knock on effect and the impacteverybody could bring together, you know.
So yeah, celebratingthat, yeah, little things.
Tesse (22:22):
You know, this is lovely and Paula and I, you know, we've
been friends for so many years.
But one of the things you said, wecelebrate our friendships and we don't
end up taking each other for granted.
Fran (22:34):
That's lovely.
Tesse (22:34):
And coming back to what you say, I have different ways of
celebrating, you know, on the bad day.
So, on a good day, I'll ask people whoI've met, put something on LinkedIn.
Put something on LinkedIn.
And what I do on a day when I'm notfeeling so great is to go to LinkedIn.
Fran (22:55):
That's amazing.
Tesse (22:55):
And see what they say.
And yeah it's not so much aboutpeople seeing, it's about me
seeing it when it's not so great.
Yeah.
You know, Paula, what are yourpractices of lifting yourself
up on a not so good day?
Paula (23:08):
This may sound cliche, and it may sound like I'm repeating what Fran said,
but it is relishing in simple thingsof life, like the sun you mentioned.
Sunshine on your face.
You know having a roof over myhead, that's a big deal because
(23:28):
I see so many homeless people.
We don't say homeless anymore, wesay people with housing insecurity.
And it's really easy in theWestern world to become homeless.
You know, not have a roof over yourhead you know, really, really easy.
Gratitude point I look at my childrenand I'm grateful for them in my life.
(23:51):
I think about my siblings and myfriends and my family, I'm grateful.
Because, you know, you mentionedearlier that your mom was adopted
and she didn't have any livingrelatives that she knew of.
And you know, for me, family means a lot.
I love family.
I have so much family around me.
(24:14):
And so these are things that give mejoy and help me to celebrate life.
Because life is tough, butmaking a choice, my mom used to
say, what did she used to say?
She used to say, happiness is a choice.
You could be in a palace and be sounhappy, you could be outside of the
palace and, you know, be so joyful.
(24:36):
So I've always held on to that.
So I look for the littlethings and so, and enjoy them.
Fran (24:42):
That's lovely.
And that sounds like, anotherpractice, actually setting intentions.
You know, thinking about howyou want to feel in a day.
My mentor is a Polish transformationalcoach called Asha Goner, and she
does great intentional practice,and on good days when I get up and
(25:03):
I'm feeling in the zone, I'll writesome intentional practice and say,
in order to feel, let's say, calm,confident today, what do I need to do?
How do I need to be?
And that really helps aswell to be very intentional.
So yeah, it's what you're saying,great, Paula, you know, around happiness
(25:25):
being a choice, we forget, don't we?
And, you know, it's all well and goodto say that and then we'll have a
really terrible day and everythingwill go out the window and we'll be
annoyed or impatient or stressed.
You know, that's just human nature.
We're not, I think we shouldn'taim for perfection, should we?
We just, it boils in, what'sthe word, incremental.
(25:45):
So yeah, I mean a little that we can find.
Tesse (25:49):
I love, I love the fact that you talk intentional, you
know, setting the intension.
It's that brings it together andbrought it together for me has
been accountability partnerships.
I'm actually setting those up so thatwe hold each other to account, and
it's not just on the compliance piece.
It's on the piece whereby when we'rehaving that not so great day, or not
(26:14):
so great experience, we talk to ouraccountability partner who reminds
us about what happened last weekthat we were celebrating, which in
those towns had become rusted, right?
So there is something aboutsetting up the support structures
for us in the ups and the downs.
Fran (26:29):
Yes, absolutely.
Tesse (26:31):
When the sun is shining, we start building the roof.
Fran (26:34):
Yeah, I like that.
Tesse (26:36):
So Paula, over to you.
Paula (26:38):
Yeah, I can't believe that we are almost at the end
of this wonderful session.
And so I thought we'd wrap up,Fran, just about four words,
what story can you remember?
We talked about, you know, Tesse talkedabout accountability partners reminding
us of how last week or two weekspreviously you were celebrating something.
(27:02):
I know that your heart goes out to,you know, young people's charity,
the youth concerns, people withmental health, learning difficulties,
missing people and so on.
But in just four words, and you may say,I'm making life really hard for you.
What story or what memory gives yougreatest joy when you look back?
(27:23):
What's one memory?
So let me give you an example.
I'm in Switzerland.
I'm saying eating chocolates in the night.
Fran (27:34):
I think being in the drop in center with a lot of the young people
and seeing them build their confidenceand dreams and them feeling supported.
Yeah.
I do like that.
Paula (27:50):
I love that.
I love that.
I love young people.
Now I live with younger people.
My sister says, don't say young people.
You're young, younger people.
Fran (27:57):
That's nice.
I have to adopt that.
Paula (28:02):
Yeah.
I love younger people.
They give me so much, I mean,joy and their perspectives.
You know, sometimes you, youfeed into their lives, but they
feed into my life big time.
Fran (28:12):
Yeah.
The energy is great.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
Paula (28:16):
I love that.
I love that.
Oh, and so with that, we want to sayto all our listeners, if you have just
listened to Fran, you can see thatprecious stories and lives matter.
We encourage you to share themwith us just like she did.
And for our listeners, we also askthat you head over to "Apple Podcasts"
(28:37):
"Google podcasts", "Spotify", "YouTube",anywhere that you listen to podcasts
and please subscribe to our podcast.
And if you have found"TesseLeads" helpful, please
let us know through a review.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
cover, please send us a note.
(28:58):
And again, I'll stress if you'd liketo be a guest on the show, just like
Fran has been, please head over toour website, "Tesse Leads", and the
website address is "www.tesseleads.
com".
And apply there.
Thank you again, Fran.
This has been awesome.
Fran (29:17):
Thank you for having me.
Tesse (29:18):
Fran, you're amazing.
Thank you so much for being awesome.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com