February 5, 2025 • 23 mins
Justin Schenck is back to share powerful insights on growing your podcast by focusing on building a strong brand, instead of just marketing. He discusses the influence of personal interests in creating engaging content and the important role of persistence in podcast success.
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Justin shares his journey from reaching out to big names to cultivating valuable connections, emphasizing the importance of offering value to both listeners and guests.
He encourages podcasters to overcome the fear of starting, take action, and focus on making impactful connections through their podcasting journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Art of Online Business podcast.
(00:03):
I'm here with my co-host, JamieHi, Jamie Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And if you're watching on YouTube, then you
can see a guy across from us andhis name is Justin Schenck, and
let me tell you this episode.
Well, you already saw the title, but if you're part of the 80%
of podcast hosts that aregetting fewer than 100 downloads
per episode, you're going towant to listen in, because
(00:27):
Justin has taught so many peoplehow to grow their podcasts and
he has had a heck of a time, awonderful story growing his
which you can listen to in theprevious episode, by the way,
that link is in the show notesbelow.
But when I first heard him saythat growing is not about
directly marketing your podcast,but it's actually about
building a brand and that'swhat's going to grow, I was like
(00:50):
we got to talk about this onthe episode.
Who is he and why should youlisten?
Justin Shank is an entrepreneur, a speaker and the host of the
top rated podcast, the GrowthNow Movement.
He's been named a top eightpodcaster to follow by Inc
Magazine.
He's featured in Thrive Globaland chosen as I should say.
(01:13):
He has been featured in ThriveGlobal and he's been chosen as
an icon of influence in the newmedia space.
His podcast has grown to becomea podcast that is currently
getting played in over 100countries every single week and
he's gone on to help countlesspeople grow their brands and
business with his company,podbrandio.
(01:37):
He's also the host and creatorof one of the go-to events for
entrepreneurs and forwardthinkers called Growth Now
Summit Live.
Justin, what did you say thatevent is for?
That was so cool at the end ofthe last episode.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, I call it a day-long rock concert for
entrepreneurs and forwardthinkers.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That right there made me almost want to buy a ticket.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
You know what's crazy about it?
I'm really a kid at heart, likeI literally have legos on my
shelf behind me, like the theback to the future delorean cars
behind me, and so I'm a.
I'm a huge wrestling fan.
I've been a wrestling fan myentire life, which is why I love
shot now that kurt angle was onthe podcast, but not only that.
I'm a disney person like.
I love disney world and Irealized that a couple things
(02:21):
how you look at thingsdifferently as an adult versus a
kid right, I still lovewrestling.
I think it's wild that half theworld makes fun of it, but it's
a multi, multi-billion dollarorganization, right, and it's
because they entertain, and so Itake some wrestling elements
not the actual wrestling part,but the entertainment part of
wrestling and I put it into myevent.
I also love Disney now becauseof how they create magic, how
they can literally do all thesethings in their parks and how,
(02:44):
like you know, for instance, thefirst time we took the kids to
disney, we were walking frommexico into china, right, and
we're literally walking throughand we really crossed okay in
epcot, yeah, so we're literallywalking from mexico into china
and the sounds and the smellsand everything changes in an
instant.
I was showing it to my stepsonas we were doing it and like
(03:04):
those little nuances, right.
So how can I take those typesof experiences and put it into
an event for entrepreneurs sopeople aren't bored, right?
I'm super ADD.
Like I do not want to sit thereand listen to hour long
keynotes.
That is not my jam, and so Iliterally create an experience
for people to show up and learnfrom individuals and have a
great time doing it.
So the whole day-long rockconcert I don't know where it
(03:25):
started or where it came from.
I started saying it back in2019, and it stuck, and so here
we are.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Here we are, here we are.
So tell me the biggest.
Let's start off by just what isthe biggest mistake that you
see podcast hosts making?
That's keeping them small.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yeah, I would say they quit too soon.
So obviously you shared thestatistic.
Podcast hosts making that'skeeping them small?
Yeah, I would say they quit toosoon, so the so obviously you
shared the statistic, thestatistic.
80% of shows do less than ahundred downloads an episode.
I've been podcasting for almostnine years and that statistic
has been true since I started.
That has always been a stat inthe podcast world.
Another crazy statistic inpodcasting is 78% of shows do
(04:03):
not make it past their firstseven episodes seven which seven
, 78, because because here's thething people and I I love
setting expectations correctlyfor anybody who wants to start a
podcast the 80 rule doing lessthan 100 downloads.
People think they're going torelease a show and thousands of
people are just going to find itautomatically and start
(04:24):
listening and they're going tobe the biggest podcast in the
world.
You are now competing, comparedto nine years ago.
You're now competing withcelebrities, the world's biggest
comedians, everybody's got apodcast, right, and so now
you're competing with thesepeople that they've consumed
their whole entire life and love.
Now they gotta not only listento them, but then also just
randomly find your podcast andstart listening.
So the real statistic inpodcasting is can you stick it
(04:48):
out long enough in order toenjoy the human connection that
you're making?
Right?
So to think about a podcast asa part of your brand, right?
You're building a platformbecause you're taking those
clips.
You're posting it on socialmedia.
Now I don't have to think aboutwhat I'm posting on social
media.
My podcast already takes careof that for me, right?
That helps you get seen by morepeople.
There's a lot more people onInstagram than people that
(05:08):
listen to podcasts.
I think this may be a datedstatistic.
There might be more now, but Ithink it's like 25% of Americans
listen to podcasts on a monthlybasis, which means only 25% of
Americans are listening to atleast one episode a month.
Right, like so.
So again, keep that in mind asyou then put this content on
social media.
Now, all of a sudden, you'rereaching a lot more people on
(05:29):
social media.
People go, oh, like, there's aton of people who've never
listened to an episode of myshow, but they know who I've
interviewed, they know the typesof conversations I have, they
know who I am, they know what Ido because I post on social
media and so that reaches somuch bigger at times, right, I
just posted a clip with KurtAngle and it has like 75,000
views or something.
Right, so your reach can be somuch bigger.
(05:51):
And then the next piece is youcould also look at your podcast,
and I know I'm saying a lot.
We can break it down a ton ifyou want the second way to look
at a podcast.
It is the greatest networkingtool of all time.
You can literally sit down withanybody you want to.
With enough persistence andasking the right way to get
people on your show, you canliterally sit down with anybody
you want to and you get to picktheir brain.
(06:13):
I've had people on my show whocharged no joke $10,000 an hour
to get coached by them.
I sat down with them for freeand picked their brain for an
hour.
Right, it is literally thegreatest networking tool in the
world and that also helps youcontinue to build your platform.
Right, like the fact that I'vehad people like Burt Kreischer
and Gabby Bernstein and JP Searsand Ed Milet and all these
(06:34):
people on my show.
That raises my profile.
That means I can now chargemore to speak.
I can now have connectionswhere people come into a
mastermind and I have a lot ofthe guests on my show teach my
mastermind every month and soutilizing all of that and
building strong relationshipsthat in itself has changed my
life.
My show does well.
I'm over 3 million downloadsover the life of my show, but if
(06:56):
I were to say what was has beenthe game changer for me, it's
the.
It's the relationships I'vebuilt with the people that I've
interviewed.
That's the thing that reallyhas moved the needle for me more
than anything else.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So I wanted to ask on the last show, but this seems
like a good spot how did youstart finding kind of these big
name people and being able toget access to them, because a
lot of people might feelintimidated possibly to reach
out to some of these people andjust like, who am I?
You know, I'm like this littleno-name podcaster just starting
(07:28):
out.
How did you start out, or howdid you even, I guess, have the
courage to go after some ofthese people that you wanted to
interview?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
that's a good question, jamie, because we I
have okay, I've shot down my VAwe have a podcast pitching
document and my VA looks forpodcasts and she's put some huge
names on there, you know, andI'm like look, we're not going
to even waste a time pitchingthem.
They're not going to look at us, so okay, yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
So I think I said it twice in the last interview we
did.
I'll say it once here Ignoranceis bliss.
I had I literally had, you know, no concept of like.
I think my whole thing was likeoh yeah, I mean, they did this
other podcast, why, why wouldn'tthey do mine?
And so I would just ask, andI've reached out through it's
literally every single socialmedia platform that you that's
(08:21):
out there other than these newones like Lemonade and all these
other things.
I've reached out on differentplatforms to every single person
, like the comedian drew lynch,who you may know he was on
america's got talent.
He's the, the comedian with astutter.
Um, hey, I reached out to himon facebook and he got back to
me.
He goes yeah, email myassistant, we'll, we'll get it
scheduled.
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's just like that, right,instagram's big.
You just message people, followup is huge, because a lot of
(08:44):
times you get slotted in andyou're going to get hidden in a
lot of things, and so I usuallywait two to three days and I
just say, hey, just wanted tofollow up on this message.
And so once you get there right, and you start to get in that
world, people will start tointroduce you to other people,
as long as you're a goodinterviewer, as long as you
build rapport, as long as youbuild that relationship.
And I think the greatestexample is I had a guy on.
(09:04):
So backtrack.
I went to an event years ago andone of the speakers was a guy
named Fabio Viviani.
I'm not a reality TV person,but he was he was on the show
top chef.
I was like who cares about achef Like I?
Why should I care about thespeaker?
And one thing that I do that Istole from this event is this
event did not tell you whatspeaker was speaking when, and
so, like I don't tell, like ifyou get the schedule to my event
(09:25):
, it doesn't say what speaker isspeaking when, because you
don't know what you're going tomiss if you, if you go, oh, I
don't want to see that speaker.
And this is this is why,because I saw him speak, I was
blown away.
I loved, I loved his approachon stage, I loved his
authenticity.
And I remember at this event Iturned to my friend who was with
me and I said I need to befriends with that guy.
So fast forward.
(09:45):
I had a guy on my show named PJ,and I realized that his book,
the Forward, was written byFabio.
And so, after the interviewwith PJ, I go hey man, I don't
normally do this, but I noticedFabio wrote the Forward to your
book.
I saw him speak at an event.
I would love to interview him.
And he goes oh, he's my bestfriend, I'll do whatever I tell
him to do.
It's like great.
So Fabio comes on the show andI can say that he came on the
(10:07):
show.
He was amazing.
He spoke at my event in 2019 asone of the keynotes.
He's one of my good friends nowbecause of this connection.
But what Fabio did changed thegame for me.
He goes who do you want tointerview?
I go, I was so caught off guardI couldn't even name anybody.
He goes, I'll introduce you topeople.
So he ended up introducing meto 50 people, including the guys
from Impractical Jokers.
He introduced me to AndyFrisella.
(10:28):
He introduced me to people fromReal Housewives of New Jersey
who have become friends of mine.
He introduced me to 50 peoplein 50 individual emails and that
changed the game for me.
And the reason why is becausehe knew I was also already
pretty well connected, because Iwas already getting big names
on the show and he was launchingan app that ultimately failed,
(10:49):
unfortunately named Doppel, andhe wanted more people to sign up
, more influencers to sign upfor Doppel, and so I, in turn,
introduced him to probably 40 or50 people that I knew, and so
that really changed the game.
And then one thing led toanother, led to another.
Like what?
For instance, like people,people love the fact that the
comedian Bert Kreischer has beenon my show because you know
he's now.
He's huge.
(11:09):
How I got Bert was Fabiointroduced me to a comedian
named Zane Lamprey, who used tohost a show called three sheets.
Zane goes hey, do you want tointerview Bert Kreischer?
After I interviewed him, he'slike you.
Zane goes hey, do you want tointerview burke kreischer?
After I interviewed him, he'slike you're really good at this.
Do you want to interview burkekreischer?
I was like I would love to.
So then burke came on the show,and so what happens is, once
you get into that network, aslong as you handle that
relationship with respect, itbecomes so much more like I
(11:31):
could probably reach out tofabio today and be like hey, man
, I'm trying to get some morebigger names on the show.
Can you introduce me to morepeople?
And he would, because we'vebuilt that relationship, but I
still cold outreach.
I'm trying to get the medium,tyler Henry, on the show, which
I've cold outreach multipletimes and I still haven't heard
back.
But I'll continue to trybecause I think it'll be a
fascinating conversation.
And so, yeah, I think it's allabout the ask and the ignorance
(11:52):
of thinking that you caninterview anybody you want.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Oh, all right.
Oh, and one more tip.
So I not about me trying tobuild my platform or connect
with them.
It's about the people listeningand I find that most people at
least the people I'd won on myshow that really resonates with
them because they're there tomake an impact.
They've already done, they'vealready have their success Right
.
So how can I give back?
I can give back by sharing myjourney on this guy's podcast,
and I think that line has reallyhelped me land bigger names on
(12:38):
the show.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Right, because people want to give back.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
People want to contribute, right A lot of
success.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, kind of that fear and that legacy time right
when it's like I've already donesome of the stuff.
What am I leaving behind?
Who am I going to be able tohelp?
And I think what you said inthe last episode, too, was
really powerful.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
At any given time, 75,000 people need to hear your
story from you, like that's,that's really powerful Cause you
never know who you can connectwith, so I'm going to you can
tell me after we finishedrecording.
Um, but Justin Moore was on mypodcast recently and, as talking
(13:21):
to you, I think of him andmaybe that could be a good
connection.
He's a sponsorship coach, justcame out with a book called
Sponsored Magnet.
Has tons of experience teachingfolks how to build their dream
brand partnerships like, highlyrecommend you listen to that
episode and if you want the, Ican give that one to you.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, so I'm asking this question.
You said brand is what buildspodcasts, but you also have
demonstrated that connectionsbuild podcasts, which is more
important for the person who'sstuck under a hundred downloads.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, that's a really good question, I mean so.
So, first of all, right, aswe're talking about building
your brand or your platform,right, you have to show up
professionally.
I've been on shows where thecontent they create is
absolutely terrible.
I would never share it out.
Their logo is terrible.
It looks like they made it likein MS paint, like that thing,
back in the day.
It's just, it's just true right.
(14:22):
And it's just the reality.
So you have to show upprofessionally.
If your show looks like crap,you're not going to have bigger
names on your show.
So branding is probably themost important part to building
your platform, because if youdon't have the right branding,
you're never going to get theguests that you'd want.
Right, and it's really aboutwhen you get those guests right.
You build a platform throughyour brand.
You position yourself with theright guests on your show.
(14:45):
That will lead to opportunityof partnership, and I look at
partnership in a number ofdifferent ways.
Right, it could be ads on your.
It could be ad revenue on yourshow.
It could be partnerships inbusinesses.
It could be partnerships inwhatever right, but I look at
everything that I do as likereally building.
What I'm doing is buildingcommunity.
Right, when I look at mymastermind or look at my live
events, it's really aboutbringing people together and
(15:07):
building community.
The amount of downloads on myshow don't matter.
It doesn't.
Right, like I could have threepeople listen to every single
show and I'd still have allthese businesses because I was
able to build a platform thatpeople respect, even if they
don't listen.
I built a platform that peoplerespect and I was able to build,
you know, partnerships withpeople that have given me an
opportunity.
People worry too much about theamount of people that listen.
(15:29):
Right, I say 80% do less than100 downloads.
I go, okay, great.
Say you're close to 100.
Say it's 90 downloads anepisode.
If you had a room full of 90people every single week to talk
to, would you show up?
Thank you, without a doubt.
Like people are so caught up inthese fake numbers, I actually
saw a post recently, uh, and itwas talking to podcasters and it
(15:50):
was literally different photosof, like, what a hundred people
look like standing together,what a thousand.
And I was, like, people get sobecause of all the, by the way,
the biggest influencers in theworld I won't call anybody out
because this is being recorded.
We could talk afterwards.
They buy their followers.
They don't really true, yeah,they don't even really have that
many followers, right, like?
And the funny thing is you'llnotice, like, if let's take
(16:11):
instagram for an example, thefirst, the first marker of your,
your big on on instagram it's10 000 people.
I don't even have that many,you know, 10 000 people and all
of a sudden, every influencerhit 10,000.
I'm like what?
What's going on here.
And then it was a hundred andthey all hit a hundred.
And then it was a million andthey all hit a million.
And I was like what, what isgoing on here?
(16:39):
Follow?
I don't care if there's threepeople listening or a hundred
people listening or a thousandpeople listening.
You can literally build abusiness off of the back of the
branding of a podcast if you doit the right way.
And most people miss the markon that and they give up too
soon.
78% don't make it past theirfirst seven episodes.
Well, if you did it for a yearand you were able to
continuously show up with thatbrand in people's faces and it's
(17:01):
your face, a talking head onsocial media people are going to
pay attention, even if theydon't click download, because
not everybody listens topodcasts.
That's just the reality.
But everybody's on instagram,like.
I just watched mark zuckerbergon rogan's podcast the other day
.
He said something like everysingle day, something like 3.3
billion people use facebookevery day.
(17:23):
Like okay, great, you should beputting content on there and
you can build a brand.
It doesn't matter if theylisten to your podcast or not
right.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
So be professional first and then work hard on
building good relationships asyou attempt to make more
connections.
And then also a bit of naivety.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Yeah, and, honestly, consistency is key.
I did not miss a Tuesdayepisode for the first five years
of my podcast and then Idecided that I was going to
randomly take off the month ofDecember.
And I was so worried because Iwould always preach consistency
is the most important part,because my whole I would tell a
(18:08):
joke of like you know, say I wasyou.
You know, my show releasesevery tuesday and I was like,
okay, great, that meanssomebody's going to the gym
every tuesday and they'rechoosing to listen to my podcast
over somebody else.
If I don't show up, they'regoing to find another podcast
chances are it's better than myshow and they're not coming back
.
So I'm going to show up everytuesday, all right, and I was,
and I was so I was so worriedthat that that's what would
happen that I was like, okay,I'm showing up every Tuesday, no
(18:28):
matter what I'm putting out ashow.
And then I decided I was justburnt out and I was like I need
a break, I need to reset theexcitement to the show.
And I was like I'm taking offthe month of December, I'm
enjoying my family, the holidays, all the things.
And what I noticed was thatmonth I did the same amount of
downloads that I did theprevious month without releasing
a new episode.
And essentially what I did, Isaid hey, hey guys, I'm taking
(18:49):
off the month of December.
This will be the last episodefor the year.
This will be a great time foryou to go back and catch up on
episodes you miss, because Iknow when I release content
every single week, it's a lot.
So I did.
I did the same amount ofdownloads in December and took a
huge leap forward in Januarybecause I was releasing new
content.
People were also getting hookedinto listening to old episodes
(19:11):
and I was like, oh cool, there'sa different thought process.
But I couldn't have done thatif I wasn't consistent for five
plus years of showing up everysingle Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Sure, you know, when you said that, it made me think
that when I was, I've beenthrowing around this idea.
This is the first time it'sbeen mentioned on the podcast,
but I've been throwing aroundthis idea.
This is the first time it'sbeen mentioned on the podcast.
I've been throwing around thisidea of taking the number of
shows that we do weekly, whichis now three, and reducing it to
one.
One lady said you know what,kwejo, that could be a good
(19:38):
thing, because I feel like I'mfalling so behind in all the
podcasts that I want to listento and then I feel bad because
I'm behind.
I'm like I had never thoughtthat like someone as a listener
would feel bad because theycan't keep up with the pace, and
so I think what you're sayingthere it's kind of verifying
some things I've been thinkingon.
You're at one a week one.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
I do one a week.
I used to do one a week like aninterview, and then I would do
what I would call my weeklymoments of growth, and that was
on Fridays.
That's how I'm on 550 episodeswith not that many weeks in that
time frame that.
I've been doing it.
Oh, that's the math, yeah.
And so they were like five to15 minutes long and it was like
a lesson I learned or whatever.
And honestly I'll say this Idid that probably for longer
(20:20):
than a year.
I would do every Friday I wouldrelease these short little
things.
They did really really well.
I should bring it back.
They did really really well andthat's actually what positioned
me more as a thought leaderanother word thrown around,
putting in quotes.
Thought leader, because before Iwas just a really good
interviewer and then when Istarted to share my own
antidotes, my own lessons and myown thought processes, that's
(20:42):
when people started to follow memore.
I realized what what washappening was.
My guests would be like, dude,your audience is great, they're
reaching.
I'm like nobody's reaching outto me, like I'm glad they're
reaching out to you because youwere a guest on my show, but who
are you talking about?
Right?
And so when I started to dothose solo episodes, that's when
I started to hear from myaudience.
So I was giving them more ofmyself.
So what I do solo episode andit's just me, just to mix it up
(21:04):
and and let people know that Istill have thoughts of my own
and so yeah, but I would saythat you will absolutely see.
You won't see a spike inmonthly downloads because you're
you're still dropping yourepisodes, but you will see an
uptick in the amount oflisteners per episode if you
dial it back to one a week yeah,you know it.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Just I love meeting people and thus because it's so
cool to meet somebody who wasn'traised like you, who might not
even have the same worldview asyou, and so I enjoy interviews.
But I, over the Christmas break, I was just really thinking,
you know, this is the art ofonline business.
What if I had each episode be atopic and then invited two to
(21:46):
three extra experts on thattopic and we just had a talk,
like I've done?
I just like people.
It plays to my strength of likefinding people and we've done
it separately, and thoseepisodes have just been gold.
I was like let me do some quickresearch on my previous, you
know, downloads on thoseepisodes and just I'm pretty
sure I'm going to go with it.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah, no, I think that's a great format.
I think it's something uniquethat a ton of people aren't
doing.
A lot of people are doing thetalking head interviews, like
you and I, right, and so it'ssomething unique.
I would say we'll have a littlecoaching session here.
I would say, just to notalienate the audience that you
already have, I would stick tothis format, but every other
episode, do the.
So that way you know, and Iwould say, like, who do you
really want to get to knowdeeper and do them on the solo
(22:29):
episodes.
And then people that you'vealready kind of you know a
little bit more about them andyou know they could work
together, well, do the groupswith them.
That's just my two cents onthat.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I like that two cents that we have into our question
right Two times a month, it'd belike not panel.
It'd be like not panel, butjust super cool conversation
around a topic with multipleguests all together One time a
month.
It'd be me and you on a soloepisode because we do have
(22:58):
thoughts to share Another time.
The folks we really want to getto know Listen.
I know that both of us are busyin a matter of moments, so I
want to give us time to take abreak.
What is the one thing?
And we'll end here the onething that if somebody was
listening to this episode withyou casually- what's the one
(23:21):
thing you want them to walk awaywith.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
So I'll leave the thought that I kind of leave all
the time, which is it doesn'tmatter where you come from.
What matters are the choicesyou make today to create a
better tomorrow for yourself andpeople around you.
Which means, if you are theperson since we've been talking
about podcasting, which means ifyou're the person who have said
for years I want to start apodcast, think about how far you
would have came if you justtook the action years ago,
versus still sitting there goingoh, I should start the podcast.
So start, just start, Juststart.
(23:42):
Don't allow judgment or thefear of failure to stop you from
taking that action.
It can be scary to put yourselfout there on the Internet and
share your journey and all thethings, but I welcome people to
embrace that fear and starttoday instead of five years from
now.
Going man, I really wish Istarted five years ago.
Welcome back to the Art of Online Business podcast.
(00:03):
I'm here with my co-host, JamieHi, Jamie Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And if you're watching on YouTube, then you
can see a guy across from us andhis name is Justin Schenck, and
let me tell you this episode.
Well, you already saw the title, but if you're part of the 80%
of podcast hosts that aregetting fewer than 100 downloads
per episode, you're going towant to listen in, because
(00:27):
Justin has taught so many peoplehow to grow their podcasts and
he has had a heck of a time, awonderful story growing his
which you can listen to in theprevious episode, by the way,
that link is in the show notesbelow.
But when I first heard him saythat growing is not about
directly marketing your podcast,but it's actually about
building a brand and that'swhat's going to grow, I was like
(00:50):
we got to talk about this onthe episode.
Who is he and why should youlisten?
Justin Shank is an entrepreneur, a speaker and the host of the
top rated podcast, the GrowthNow Movement.
He's been named a top eightpodcaster to follow by Inc
Magazine.
He's featured in Thrive Globaland chosen as I should say.
(01:13):
He has been featured in ThriveGlobal and he's been chosen as
an icon of influence in the newmedia space.
His podcast has grown to becomea podcast that is currently
getting played in over 100countries every single week and
he's gone on to help countlesspeople grow their brands and
business with his company,podbrandio.
(01:37):
He's also the host and creatorof one of the go-to events for
entrepreneurs and forwardthinkers called Growth Now
Summit Live.
Justin, what did you say thatevent is for?
That was so cool at the end ofthe last episode.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, I call it a day-long rock concert for
entrepreneurs and forwardthinkers.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That right there made me almost want to buy a ticket.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
You know what's crazy about it?
I'm really a kid at heart, likeI literally have legos on my
shelf behind me, like the theback to the future delorean cars
behind me, and so I'm a.
I'm a huge wrestling fan.
I've been a wrestling fan myentire life, which is why I love
shot now that kurt angle was onthe podcast, but not only that.
I'm a disney person like.
I love disney world and Irealized that a couple things
(02:21):
how you look at thingsdifferently as an adult versus a
kid right, I still lovewrestling.
I think it's wild that half theworld makes fun of it, but it's
a multi, multi-billion dollarorganization, right, and it's
because they entertain, and so Itake some wrestling elements
not the actual wrestling part,but the entertainment part of
wrestling and I put it into myevent.
I also love Disney now becauseof how they create magic, how
they can literally do all thesethings in their parks and how,
(02:44):
like you know, for instance, thefirst time we took the kids to
disney, we were walking frommexico into china, right, and
we're literally walking throughand we really crossed okay in
epcot, yeah, so we're literallywalking from mexico into china
and the sounds and the smellsand everything changes in an
instant.
I was showing it to my stepsonas we were doing it and like
(03:04):
those little nuances, right.
So how can I take those typesof experiences and put it into
an event for entrepreneurs sopeople aren't bored, right?
I'm super ADD.
Like I do not want to sit thereand listen to hour long
keynotes.
That is not my jam, and so Iliterally create an experience
for people to show up and learnfrom individuals and have a
great time doing it.
So the whole day-long rockconcert I don't know where it
(03:25):
started or where it came from.
I started saying it back in2019, and it stuck, and so here
we are.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Here we are, here we are.
So tell me the biggest.
Let's start off by just what isthe biggest mistake that you
see podcast hosts making?
That's keeping them small.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yeah, I would say they quit too soon.
So obviously you shared thestatistic.
Podcast hosts making that'skeeping them small?
Yeah, I would say they quit toosoon, so the so obviously you
shared the statistic, thestatistic.
80% of shows do less than ahundred downloads an episode.
I've been podcasting for almostnine years and that statistic
has been true since I started.
That has always been a stat inthe podcast world.
Another crazy statistic inpodcasting is 78% of shows do
(04:03):
not make it past their firstseven episodes seven which seven
, 78, because because here's thething people and I I love
setting expectations correctlyfor anybody who wants to start a
podcast the 80 rule doing lessthan 100 downloads.
People think they're going torelease a show and thousands of
people are just going to find itautomatically and start
(04:24):
listening and they're going tobe the biggest podcast in the
world.
You are now competing, comparedto nine years ago.
You're now competing withcelebrities, the world's biggest
comedians, everybody's got apodcast, right, and so now
you're competing with thesepeople that they've consumed
their whole entire life and love.
Now they gotta not only listento them, but then also just
randomly find your podcast andstart listening.
So the real statistic inpodcasting is can you stick it
(04:48):
out long enough in order toenjoy the human connection that
you're making?
Right?
So to think about a podcast asa part of your brand, right?
You're building a platformbecause you're taking those
clips.
You're posting it on socialmedia.
Now I don't have to think aboutwhat I'm posting on social
media.
My podcast already takes careof that for me, right?
That helps you get seen by morepeople.
There's a lot more people onInstagram than people that
(05:08):
listen to podcasts.
I think this may be a datedstatistic.
There might be more now, but Ithink it's like 25% of Americans
listen to podcasts on a monthlybasis, which means only 25% of
Americans are listening to atleast one episode a month.
Right, like so.
So again, keep that in mind asyou then put this content on
social media.
Now, all of a sudden, you'rereaching a lot more people on
(05:29):
social media.
People go, oh, like, there's aton of people who've never
listened to an episode of myshow, but they know who I've
interviewed, they know the typesof conversations I have, they
know who I am, they know what Ido because I post on social
media and so that reaches somuch bigger at times, right, I
just posted a clip with KurtAngle and it has like 75,000
views or something.
Right, so your reach can be somuch bigger.
(05:51):
And then the next piece is youcould also look at your podcast,
and I know I'm saying a lot.
We can break it down a ton ifyou want the second way to look
at a podcast.
It is the greatest networkingtool of all time.
You can literally sit down withanybody you want to.
With enough persistence andasking the right way to get
people on your show, you canliterally sit down with anybody
you want to and you get to picktheir brain.
(06:13):
I've had people on my show whocharged no joke $10,000 an hour
to get coached by them.
I sat down with them for freeand picked their brain for an
hour.
Right, it is literally thegreatest networking tool in the
world and that also helps youcontinue to build your platform.
Right, like the fact that I'vehad people like Burt Kreischer
and Gabby Bernstein and JP Searsand Ed Milet and all these
(06:34):
people on my show.
That raises my profile.
That means I can now chargemore to speak.
I can now have connectionswhere people come into a
mastermind and I have a lot ofthe guests on my show teach my
mastermind every month and soutilizing all of that and
building strong relationshipsthat in itself has changed my
life.
My show does well.
I'm over 3 million downloadsover the life of my show, but if
(06:56):
I were to say what was has beenthe game changer for me, it's
the.
It's the relationships I'vebuilt with the people that I've
interviewed.
That's the thing that reallyhas moved the needle for me more
than anything else.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So I wanted to ask on the last show, but this seems
like a good spot how did youstart finding kind of these big
name people and being able toget access to them, because a
lot of people might feelintimidated possibly to reach
out to some of these people andjust like, who am I?
You know, I'm like this littleno-name podcaster just starting
(07:28):
out.
How did you start out, or howdid you even, I guess, have the
courage to go after some ofthese people that you wanted to
interview?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
that's a good question, jamie, because we I
have okay, I've shot down my VAwe have a podcast pitching
document and my VA looks forpodcasts and she's put some huge
names on there, you know, andI'm like look, we're not going
to even waste a time pitchingthem.
They're not going to look at us, so okay, yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
So I think I said it twice in the last interview we
did.
I'll say it once here Ignoranceis bliss.
I had I literally had, you know, no concept of like.
I think my whole thing was likeoh yeah, I mean, they did this
other podcast, why, why wouldn'tthey do mine?
And so I would just ask, andI've reached out through it's
literally every single socialmedia platform that you that's
(08:21):
out there other than these newones like Lemonade and all these
other things.
I've reached out on differentplatforms to every single person
, like the comedian drew lynch,who you may know he was on
america's got talent.
He's the, the comedian with astutter.
Um, hey, I reached out to himon facebook and he got back to
me.
He goes yeah, email myassistant, we'll, we'll get it
scheduled.
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's just like that, right,instagram's big.
You just message people, followup is huge, because a lot of
(08:44):
times you get slotted in andyou're going to get hidden in a
lot of things, and so I usuallywait two to three days and I
just say, hey, just wanted tofollow up on this message.
And so once you get there right, and you start to get in that
world, people will start tointroduce you to other people,
as long as you're a goodinterviewer, as long as you
build rapport, as long as youbuild that relationship.
And I think the greatestexample is I had a guy on.
(09:04):
So backtrack.
I went to an event years ago andone of the speakers was a guy
named Fabio Viviani.
I'm not a reality TV person,but he was he was on the show
top chef.
I was like who cares about achef Like I?
Why should I care about thespeaker?
And one thing that I do that Istole from this event is this
event did not tell you whatspeaker was speaking when, and
so, like I don't tell, like ifyou get the schedule to my event
(09:25):
, it doesn't say what speaker isspeaking when, because you
don't know what you're going tomiss if you, if you go, oh, I
don't want to see that speaker.
And this is this is why,because I saw him speak, I was
blown away.
I loved, I loved his approachon stage, I loved his
authenticity.
And I remember at this event Iturned to my friend who was with
me and I said I need to befriends with that guy.
So fast forward.
(09:45):
I had a guy on my show named PJ,and I realized that his book,
the Forward, was written byFabio.
And so, after the interviewwith PJ, I go hey man, I don't
normally do this, but I noticedFabio wrote the Forward to your
book.
I saw him speak at an event.
I would love to interview him.
And he goes oh, he's my bestfriend, I'll do whatever I tell
him to do.
It's like great.
So Fabio comes on the show andI can say that he came on the
(10:07):
show.
He was amazing.
He spoke at my event in 2019 asone of the keynotes.
He's one of my good friends nowbecause of this connection.
But what Fabio did changed thegame for me.
He goes who do you want tointerview?
I go, I was so caught off guardI couldn't even name anybody.
He goes, I'll introduce you topeople.
So he ended up introducing meto 50 people, including the guys
from Impractical Jokers.
He introduced me to AndyFrisella.
(10:28):
He introduced me to people fromReal Housewives of New Jersey
who have become friends of mine.
He introduced me to 50 peoplein 50 individual emails and that
changed the game for me.
And the reason why is becausehe knew I was also already
pretty well connected, because Iwas already getting big names
on the show and he was launchingan app that ultimately failed,
(10:49):
unfortunately named Doppel, andhe wanted more people to sign up
, more influencers to sign upfor Doppel, and so I, in turn,
introduced him to probably 40 or50 people that I knew, and so
that really changed the game.
And then one thing led toanother, led to another.
Like what?
For instance, like people,people love the fact that the
comedian Bert Kreischer has beenon my show because you know
he's now.
He's huge.
(11:09):
How I got Bert was Fabiointroduced me to a comedian
named Zane Lamprey, who used tohost a show called three sheets.
Zane goes hey, do you want tointerview Bert Kreischer?
After I interviewed him, he'slike you.
Zane goes hey, do you want tointerview burke kreischer?
After I interviewed him, he'slike you're really good at this.
Do you want to interview burkekreischer?
I was like I would love to.
So then burke came on the show,and so what happens is, once
you get into that network, aslong as you handle that
relationship with respect, itbecomes so much more like I
(11:31):
could probably reach out tofabio today and be like hey, man
, I'm trying to get some morebigger names on the show.
Can you introduce me to morepeople?
And he would, because we'vebuilt that relationship, but I
still cold outreach.
I'm trying to get the medium,tyler Henry, on the show, which
I've cold outreach multipletimes and I still haven't heard
back.
But I'll continue to trybecause I think it'll be a
fascinating conversation.
And so, yeah, I think it's allabout the ask and the ignorance
(11:52):
of thinking that you caninterview anybody you want.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Oh, all right.
Oh, and one more tip.
So I not about me trying tobuild my platform or connect
with them.
It's about the people listeningand I find that most people at
least the people I'd won on myshow that really resonates with
them because they're there tomake an impact.
They've already done, they'vealready have their success Right
.
So how can I give back?
I can give back by sharing myjourney on this guy's podcast,
and I think that line has reallyhelped me land bigger names on
(12:38):
the show.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Right, because people want to give back.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
People want to contribute, right A lot of
success.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, kind of that fear and that legacy time right
when it's like I've already donesome of the stuff.
What am I leaving behind?
Who am I going to be able tohelp?
And I think what you said inthe last episode, too, was
really powerful.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
At any given time, 75,000 people need to hear your
story from you, like that's,that's really powerful Cause you
never know who you can connectwith, so I'm going to you can
tell me after we finishedrecording.
Um, but Justin Moore was on mypodcast recently and, as talking
(13:21):
to you, I think of him andmaybe that could be a good
connection.
He's a sponsorship coach, justcame out with a book called
Sponsored Magnet.
Has tons of experience teachingfolks how to build their dream
brand partnerships like, highlyrecommend you listen to that
episode and if you want the, Ican give that one to you.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, so I'm asking this question.
You said brand is what buildspodcasts, but you also have
demonstrated that connectionsbuild podcasts, which is more
important for the person who'sstuck under a hundred downloads.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, that's a really good question, I mean so.
So, first of all, right, aswe're talking about building
your brand or your platform,right, you have to show up
professionally.
I've been on shows where thecontent they create is
absolutely terrible.
I would never share it out.
Their logo is terrible.
It looks like they made it likein MS paint, like that thing,
back in the day.
It's just, it's just true right.
(14:22):
And it's just the reality.
So you have to show upprofessionally.
If your show looks like crap,you're not going to have bigger
names on your show.
So branding is probably themost important part to building
your platform, because if youdon't have the right branding,
you're never going to get theguests that you'd want.
Right, and it's really aboutwhen you get those guests right.
You build a platform throughyour brand.
You position yourself with theright guests on your show.
(14:45):
That will lead to opportunityof partnership, and I look at
partnership in a number ofdifferent ways.
Right, it could be ads on your.
It could be ad revenue on yourshow.
It could be partnerships inbusinesses.
It could be partnerships inwhatever right, but I look at
everything that I do as likereally building.
What I'm doing is buildingcommunity.
Right, when I look at mymastermind or look at my live
events, it's really aboutbringing people together and
(15:07):
building community.
The amount of downloads on myshow don't matter.
It doesn't.
Right, like I could have threepeople listen to every single
show and I'd still have allthese businesses because I was
able to build a platform thatpeople respect, even if they
don't listen.
I built a platform that peoplerespect and I was able to build,
you know, partnerships withpeople that have given me an
opportunity.
People worry too much about theamount of people that listen.
(15:29):
Right, I say 80% do less than100 downloads.
I go, okay, great.
Say you're close to 100.
Say it's 90 downloads anepisode.
If you had a room full of 90people every single week to talk
to, would you show up?
Thank you, without a doubt.
Like people are so caught up inthese fake numbers, I actually
saw a post recently, uh, and itwas talking to podcasters and it
(15:50):
was literally different photosof, like, what a hundred people
look like standing together,what a thousand.
And I was, like, people get sobecause of all the, by the way,
the biggest influencers in theworld I won't call anybody out
because this is being recorded.
We could talk afterwards.
They buy their followers.
They don't really true, yeah,they don't even really have that
many followers, right, like?
And the funny thing is you'llnotice, like, if let's take
(16:11):
instagram for an example, thefirst, the first marker of your,
your big on on instagram it's10 000 people.
I don't even have that many,you know, 10 000 people and all
of a sudden, every influencerhit 10,000.
I'm like what?
What's going on here.
And then it was a hundred andthey all hit a hundred.
And then it was a million andthey all hit a million.
And I was like what, what isgoing on here?
(16:39):
Follow?
I don't care if there's threepeople listening or a hundred
people listening or a thousandpeople listening.
You can literally build abusiness off of the back of the
branding of a podcast if you doit the right way.
And most people miss the markon that and they give up too
soon.
78% don't make it past theirfirst seven episodes.
Well, if you did it for a yearand you were able to
continuously show up with thatbrand in people's faces and it's
(17:01):
your face, a talking head onsocial media people are going to
pay attention, even if theydon't click download, because
not everybody listens topodcasts.
That's just the reality.
But everybody's on instagram,like.
I just watched mark zuckerbergon rogan's podcast the other day
.
He said something like everysingle day, something like 3.3
billion people use facebookevery day.
(17:23):
Like okay, great, you should beputting content on there and
you can build a brand.
It doesn't matter if theylisten to your podcast or not
right.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
So be professional first and then work hard on
building good relationships asyou attempt to make more
connections.
And then also a bit of naivety.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Yeah, and, honestly, consistency is key.
I did not miss a Tuesdayepisode for the first five years
of my podcast and then Idecided that I was going to
randomly take off the month ofDecember.
And I was so worried because Iwould always preach consistency
is the most important part,because my whole I would tell a
(18:08):
joke of like you know, say I wasyou.
You know, my show releasesevery tuesday and I was like,
okay, great, that meanssomebody's going to the gym
every tuesday and they'rechoosing to listen to my podcast
over somebody else.
If I don't show up, they'regoing to find another podcast
chances are it's better than myshow and they're not coming back
.
So I'm going to show up everytuesday, all right, and I was,
and I was so I was so worriedthat that that's what would
happen that I was like, okay,I'm showing up every Tuesday, no
(18:28):
matter what I'm putting out ashow.
And then I decided I was justburnt out and I was like I need
a break, I need to reset theexcitement to the show.
And I was like I'm taking offthe month of December, I'm
enjoying my family, the holidays, all the things.
And what I noticed was thatmonth I did the same amount of
downloads that I did theprevious month without releasing
a new episode.
And essentially what I did, Isaid hey, hey guys, I'm taking
(18:49):
off the month of December.
This will be the last episodefor the year.
This will be a great time foryou to go back and catch up on
episodes you miss, because Iknow when I release content
every single week, it's a lot.
So I did.
I did the same amount ofdownloads in December and took a
huge leap forward in Januarybecause I was releasing new
content.
People were also getting hookedinto listening to old episodes
(19:11):
and I was like, oh cool, there'sa different thought process.
But I couldn't have done thatif I wasn't consistent for five
plus years of showing up everysingle Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Sure, you know, when you said that, it made me think
that when I was, I've beenthrowing around this idea.
This is the first time it'sbeen mentioned on the podcast,
but I've been throwing aroundthis idea.
This is the first time it'sbeen mentioned on the podcast.
I've been throwing around thisidea of taking the number of
shows that we do weekly, whichis now three, and reducing it to
one.
One lady said you know what,kwejo, that could be a good
(19:38):
thing, because I feel like I'mfalling so behind in all the
podcasts that I want to listento and then I feel bad because
I'm behind.
I'm like I had never thoughtthat like someone as a listener
would feel bad because theycan't keep up with the pace, and
so I think what you're sayingthere it's kind of verifying
some things I've been thinkingon.
You're at one a week one.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
I do one a week.
I used to do one a week like aninterview, and then I would do
what I would call my weeklymoments of growth, and that was
on Fridays.
That's how I'm on 550 episodeswith not that many weeks in that
time frame that.
I've been doing it.
Oh, that's the math, yeah.
And so they were like five to15 minutes long and it was like
a lesson I learned or whatever.
And honestly I'll say this Idid that probably for longer
(20:20):
than a year.
I would do every Friday I wouldrelease these short little
things.
They did really really well.
I should bring it back.
They did really really well andthat's actually what positioned
me more as a thought leaderanother word thrown around,
putting in quotes.
Thought leader, because before Iwas just a really good
interviewer and then when Istarted to share my own
antidotes, my own lessons and myown thought processes, that's
(20:42):
when people started to follow memore.
I realized what what washappening was.
My guests would be like, dude,your audience is great, they're
reaching.
I'm like nobody's reaching outto me, like I'm glad they're
reaching out to you because youwere a guest on my show, but who
are you talking about?
Right?
And so when I started to dothose solo episodes, that's when
I started to hear from myaudience.
So I was giving them more ofmyself.
So what I do solo episode andit's just me, just to mix it up
(21:04):
and and let people know that Istill have thoughts of my own
and so yeah, but I would saythat you will absolutely see.
You won't see a spike inmonthly downloads because you're
you're still dropping yourepisodes, but you will see an
uptick in the amount oflisteners per episode if you
dial it back to one a week yeah,you know it.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Just I love meeting people and thus because it's so
cool to meet somebody who wasn'traised like you, who might not
even have the same worldview asyou, and so I enjoy interviews.
But I, over the Christmas break, I was just really thinking,
you know, this is the art ofonline business.
What if I had each episode be atopic and then invited two to
(21:46):
three extra experts on thattopic and we just had a talk,
like I've done?
I just like people.
It plays to my strength of likefinding people and we've done
it separately, and thoseepisodes have just been gold.
I was like let me do some quickresearch on my previous, you
know, downloads on thoseepisodes and just I'm pretty
sure I'm going to go with it.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah, no, I think that's a great format.
I think it's something uniquethat a ton of people aren't
doing.
A lot of people are doing thetalking head interviews, like
you and I, right, and so it'ssomething unique.
I would say we'll have a littlecoaching session here.
I would say, just to notalienate the audience that you
already have, I would stick tothis format, but every other
episode, do the.
So that way you know, and Iwould say, like, who do you
really want to get to knowdeeper and do them on the solo
(22:29):
episodes.
And then people that you'vealready kind of you know a
little bit more about them andyou know they could work
together, well, do the groupswith them.
That's just my two cents onthat.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I like that two cents that we have into our question
right Two times a month, it'd belike not panel.
It'd be like not panel, butjust super cool conversation
around a topic with multipleguests all together One time a
month.
It'd be me and you on a soloepisode because we do have
(22:58):
thoughts to share Another time.
The folks we really want to getto know Listen.
I know that both of us are busyin a matter of moments, so I
want to give us time to take abreak.
What is the one thing?
And we'll end here the onething that if somebody was
listening to this episode withyou casually- what's the one
(23:21):
thing you want them to walk awaywith.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
So I'll leave the thought that I kind of leave all
the time, which is it doesn'tmatter where you come from.
What matters are the choicesyou make today to create a
better tomorrow for yourself andpeople around you.
Which means, if you are theperson since we've been talking
about podcasting, which means ifyou're the person who have said
for years I want to start apodcast, think about how far you
would have came if you justtook the action years ago,
versus still sitting there goingoh, I should start the podcast.
So start, just start, Juststart.
(23:42):
Don't allow judgment or thefear of failure to stop you from
taking that action.
It can be scary to put yourselfout there on the Internet and
share your journey and all thethings, but I welcome people to
embrace that fear and starttoday instead of five years from
now.
Going man, I really wish Istarted five years ago.
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