February 26, 2025 • 29 mins
Rob Marsh is back to talk about "bro" marketing—why some people don’t like it and why not all of it is bad for your business.
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Let's clear up the myths around these marketing strategies and highlight the benefits of tactics that many see as too flashy or insincere.
Rob shares what he learns from years of writing ads for different businesses and how you can use strong marketing in an honest way that helps your customers.
Watch the previous episode on YouTube, "Building THE Leading Copywriting Community featuring Rob Marsh of The Copywriter Club"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I know you've heard that bro marketing is bad.
People throw around the womenin bikinis, the men on private
jets and we all love to hate onbro marketing and I could list
five names pretty quickly, whichI won't.
But here's a good name RobMarsh is here with us today and
we're gonna talk about why notall bro marketing tactics are
(00:22):
bad and what that means for yourbusiness, rob, if you haven't
listened to him on the previousepisode where we got you know
some nice candid snapshots ofhow he's built his business, the
Copywriter Club, and sometransitions and challenges that
he's going through in hisbusiness.
Right now he is a directresponse copywriter who
(00:42):
specializes in email and salespages.
He's written everything fromdirect mail to TV case studies
and a book.
He's worked for clients likeAmerican Express, cedars-sinai
and Pluralsight.
Today he writes primarily fortech companies, software as a
service companies and evenhealth supplemental clients.
When I looked at the CopywriterClub if you haven't heard of it
(01:04):
I see the tagline it's wherecopywriters go to get better
better copy, better clients,better paychecks and maybe, Rob,
you're going to change thattagline soon.
I will see what happens, butthank you for coming on to the
show a second time and I'llshare the same thing I shared
before.
When I read your bio, you saidyou have a very or you're trying
(01:25):
very hard not to have thatsecond donut, and I commented
that copywriters always havethis little something that
tickles your fancy, that, as youcalled in the previous episode
a pattern interrupt.
You being on the podcast hasbeen that pattern interrupt.
I would say a nice, fresh, justamicable interview.
Not that all my interviewsaren't friendly and fun, but I
thoroughly enjoyed our firstepisode together and I'm happy
(01:47):
to welcome you back for a secondone.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Thank you.
I mean, if amicable is apattern interrupt.
Maybe we should do somethingreally adversarial here and
argue and give people somethingto talk about with this second
episode, Right, right, Actuallya little bit of a teaser.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
There may be a more entertaining filter on this
episode, on this podcast comingup in about four months, maybe
sooner.
I'm working on a differentpodcast format, Ooh nice, I
can't wait One that brings on acouple of experts has a twist in
there.
Ooh, that could be fun.
Yeah, I think it's needed.
I think it's needed.
(02:24):
I'm working on it Very cool.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I can't wait to see what that turns out to be.
Ooh, that can be fun.
Yeah, I think it's needed.
I think it's needed.
I'm working on it.
Very cool, I can't wait to seewhat that turns out to be.
Well, there's an open loop.
There's a copywriting tacticfor you.
Keep us all listening for atleast four months till we can
find out what's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Right, what will happen?
And now I've committed myselfon public air to actually make
something happen.
So, bro marketers I've nevermet one of these fabled bro
marketers.
You know, I hear about them.
I feel like there's kind oflike unicorns.
What is a tactic that bromarketers aren't known and
loathed for that you believeactually is good for business?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, let's first you know I think everybody knows
what bro marketers are.
You mentioned.
You know the private jets, thebig houses, the Lamborghinis,
sometimes fanning out hundredsof dollars or whatever, and
really talking about thismassive opportunity you've got
to get in, and I think thoseimages are actually pretty rare.
(03:18):
I mean, there are definitelypeople out there that use them,
and especially in the use themand especially in the biz op
kind of world.
They're out there for sure.
But I think a lot of peoplehave grabbed this term bro
marketer and applied it to allmarketing in a way that is
really unfair to marketing on awhole and makes people afraid to
(03:42):
actually do marketing.
And so I've talked about thisseveral times.
But I am a fan of marketing, Ilove marketing, I love what it
does, I love how it works, Ilove doing it, I love figuring
out the problems and solving allthose issues.
I'm guessing most of the peoplethat listen to your podcast, cry
Joe, are marketers who lovethis thing that we all do, and
(04:04):
when we hear people talkingabout how bad marketing is bro
marketing whatever sometimes westart feeling bad about it.
In fact, I once gave apresentation, a talk, about how
marketers can use the tacticsthat con men you know,
confidence men use in order todo good in the world.
And after I gave thatpresentation, somebody came up
(04:26):
to me and said I don't I meanthanks for the talk at all, but
you made me feel like I'm a conman and that was not my
intention at all.
You know, after hearing thatfeedback, I'm like, okay, I got
to rework this presentationbecause I was focused way too
much on the negative and not onthe positive.
But there's a lot of baby inthat bathwater that we like to
(04:48):
throw away.
You know, and say, hey, you knowall of that, bro, marketing
stuff is bad.
So, yeah, I can go through.
You know the tactics of why Ithink that we still need them.
But let me just say that ifyour product works so I mean, if
your product doesn't work thenyeah, you should not be
marketing it.
You have no business selling itto anybody.
(05:08):
That's bad.
But if your product works, youowe it to your potential
customers to get it in theirhands at a price that is fair,
in a way that doesn't takeadvantage of them, but that
helps them solve the problemthat they have.
And if you do that, then themarketing tactics that you work
are going to naturally be prettydarn good.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
That is a very, very good point.
I think somebody needs to hearthat today.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, I mean yeah, we can go on and on about the
specifics as well, but if you'reserving people, you're probably
doing a good thing.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
That reminds me of the phrase selling is serving,
not my own.
It that reminds me of thephrase selling is serving, not
my own.
It's one that I picked up froma guy I used to work with, but I
believe it's true.
I believe it's true.
I believe we were put here.
I believe we have our skillsand our gifts and our passions,
and we are meant to serve andwork with people.
And without selling, how are wegoing to be a blessing and a
(06:02):
transformative agent in folks'lives?
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
So can I give you some examples, please, please do
.
I'm guessing many of yourguests have heard of this
writing formula PAS, the lettersP-A-S.
It stands for problem, agitate,solve.
Lot of people take issue withthe idea of agitating the pain
(06:26):
or the problem that people havewhen you're talking to them in
marketing.
So they say that when youagitate that pain, you're making
people feel bad aboutthemselves, you're making them
uncomfortable, which isn't agood thing.
And I don't necessarily disagreewith that, although helping
people understand how bad theirproblem is, if it leads to a
(06:49):
solution, can be a good thing.
But obviously we don't want tocause more trauma.
We don't.
We don't want to make thingsworse for them.
So I would just maybe twist thatjust a little bit and think
about you don't agitate theproblem or the pain in order to
make people feel bad.
You do it in order to empathizewith them and show them that
(07:09):
you understand what they'regoing through, so that you can
say to them look, I hear you,I've, I've been there.
If you have actually been there, you've been through the same
kind of thing, or, or you know,I can empathize with you and
because of that I have thisthing that's going to solve the
problem for you.
Right like that is a salesmessage that works, and it does
(07:30):
it in a way that is uh helpful.
Now, sometimes we do have tohelp people feel like how bad
that pain is right, and so thatin that case, agitation isn't
necessarily bad, as long asyou're not using it to
traumatize or to manipulate.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
True.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly so.
Other things, like people talkall the time about countdown
timers are a bro marketingtactic because it, you know,
makes people feel like they'vegot to make a decision right now
.
Right, and there is that elementto it.
But a lot of programs are timebound, they start on a
particular day and, in order tohelp people decide to join, it
(08:11):
helps to have a countdown timersaying, hey, this offer does end
Right, and after the offer isover, you can't get it anymore.
And so again, doing it from aplace where you're helping your
customers, as opposed to tryingto get something out of them or
manipulate them into making adecision, is a good thing.
So, and we could, you know,same thing applies for, you know
(08:31):
, scarcity and risk removal.
You know where, where we try tomake it an easy decision for
people by lowering the price orgiving them a free trial or
offering a money back guarantee.
Like all of these tactics areeffective marketing, and just
because bro marketers use themdoes not mean that they're bad.
It means that we're trying tohelp people get to a solution
(08:53):
that helps them ultimately solvea problem.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I've been helped out of a place of indecision with
timers and so far, the courses Ibought, I haven't regretted
purchasing them.
I have yet to get a bad one.
Maybe that's just me.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, I mean there are definitely bad courses out
there, there are bad actors outthere.
There's a reason why we talkabout, you know, bro, marketers
or any of the other you know,surkets that we use to refer to
people, but most marketers aregood and are trying to help.
Let me give you one otherexample, because I've heard this
(09:30):
a lot, where people say well,you know the product, all you're
selling is hope, right.
So my mom, before she passedaway, had Alzheimer's disease
and obviously Alzheimer's is aterrible thing to get there's no
hope for a solution.
You know it's going to end badly.
And as she was starting to dealwith this diagnosis and what
(09:52):
was going on, she went onlineand she found some tapes and a
couple of books.
I think that you know it's likebrain energy and the promises
there were.
You know, helps you rememberthings and they may even have
stretched the truth a bit intoyou know, helps delay the onset
of Alzheimer's disease.
My mom bought those and you knowwhen, after she passed away,
(10:14):
you know, and I was cleaning outsome of her stuff I found these
products.
Now you could argue that theproducts didn't work and it was
bad and she shouldn't have beensold these products.
Now you could argue that theproducts didn't work and it was
bad and she shouldn't have been,you know, sold these products.
But I would argue that thoseproducts gave my mom something
really precious in the yearsthat she was alive, and that was
hope.
She had some hope that she wouldfind a solution or that there
(10:36):
would be.
You know some way to, if notovercome it, delay the symptoms
and the things that she wasfeeling, and to her $100 or $200
, whatever those things cost togive her that hope in some ways
was way more precious than anactual solution.
You know, if there was asolution out there could be Like
(10:59):
.
Hope is an awesome thing togive people.
Now I am not arguing that weshould sell products that don't
work or that we shouldmanipulate people based on hope,
but I am saying that when wegive people hope that there is a
solution for their problem andand can back it up, that's a
good thing, and I I saw that inthis thing that you know, maybe
was a little bit dubious, thatmy mom bought and again, I think
(11:22):
that's a good thing andsomething that marketers should
be proud of.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I agree, I definitely agree.
I feel like hope is a force.
What's the opposite of hope?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Despair.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I met somebody who had a lot of despair recently.
They'll never listen to this,this podcast, but I remember
sitting down with them.
It was an old friend and itjust if the cart, the cartoon
depiction of the storm cloudthat's just following you around
(11:54):
and raining on you.
This was that person and I meanI'm super optimistic like to
meet new people.
They were like not trusting ofpeople and it seemed like during
what I thought was an amazingtrip, like everything went right
for me, everything went wrongfor them, in the matter of a day
(12:16):
that we were together, even tothe point where we're sitting
down for coffee, and this weirdspiny looking pine cone not pine
cone, seed acorn thing droppedon our table and was like mashed
.
I'm like what the heck?
That has never happened to mebefore and they were like, yeah,
you know I would.
(12:37):
I'm not surprised this kind ofstuff happens.
I'm like, oh my gosh, like weneed to not hang out anymore.
But to your point, it'sdefinitely good to give somebody
hope, and especially so whenit's tied with a program that
actually can deliver.
So I have a question, and Ithink the listener might have
had this question too when isthe line?
(12:59):
Can you speak to that as acopywriter?
Where is the line?
Can you speak to that as acopywriter?
Good agitation versus badagitation.
How far do you go to agitate aproblem for good before it
becomes?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
triggering.
This is a little bit like theSupreme Court justice when they
were looking at the definitionof pornography.
They're like I know it when Isee it.
So it is hard to say this isexactly where the line is.
And I know a lot of us reallywant to say, yeah, the line is
right here and you can go rightup to the line and be okay, and
(13:30):
then, once you step over theline, everything is bad and it's
just not like that.
There's a lot of gray spacewhere a tactic might be okay in
one situation but woulddefinitely be bad in another
situation.
So but I would say this ifyou're, if you're manipulating
and you are trying to get peopleto act and I would define
manipulation as acting againstsomebody's will not necessarily
(13:54):
because sometimes we manipulatepeople to do things that are in
their interest, especially asparents.
We do this all the time, rightLike you know.
Here comes the choo-choo trainand we stick a you know a bit of
cauliflower into a kid's mouthinstead of apple or whatever.
Right Like we're, we manipulateour children all the time and,
by the way, our childrenmanipulate us right back, you
know it is a very human thing todo the things that that get us
(14:17):
the things we want.
So so we gotta be a little bitcareful about that.
But if you are manipulatingpeople to act against their own
interests or even the way thatthey want to act, like they
would not choose to do this forthemselves at this time, even if
it would be good for them, it'sprobably not a great thing.
There are exceptions, you know.
Like if you manipulate peopleor a person to stop taking
(14:39):
heroin, very few people aregoing to say that's a bad thing,
right, even though we may bemanipulating them.
But we're not talking aboutthat kind of case.
We're talking about sellingyour product or your service or
whatever the thing is, and inthose cases we should not be
impeding people's free will,people's free will.
(15:05):
And so the dark side ofmarketing where we set up these
things, like the buy button thatsays I'm 100% in and then right
below it it says no, I lovefailure or I want to keep
failing all my life.
Those dark patterns are uglyand manipulative and, yeah,
those are bad.
But a button that says yes, I'm100% in, and then the button
underneath says no, I'm notready for this right now.
That's fine, right?
(15:26):
We give people the option todecide yes or no, right?
We're not taking away theiragency.
That's where I would draw theline.
And again, if you're trying toget somebody off heroin, fine,
manipulate a little bit, but I'mnot talking about that stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Now I'm thinking of a button at the bottom of my
upsell page that says like yes,I want these Canva templates,
and then right underneath itsays like no, my ads already
have enough scroll scrollstopping power already, or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
And to me that feels probably okay, right, because if
I do feel that way, like if Idon't need Canva templates, or
maybe I have another option andI can create my own and I don't
need your particular templates,right, like that's okay, my ads,
you're not really beingmanipulative there.
But if it said, no, I never wantto succeed, no, I'm happy with
(16:20):
ads that don't perform Right,like that, takes that decision
and turns it into moremanipulation, where we're making
people feel bad about the thingthat they're doing as opposed
to giving them a yes, nodecision.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, it's like we're beating them up, we're bullying
them, like we would do that.
Well, hopefully we wouldn't dothat in real life.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I don't think that you would.
I mean, maybe there are somewe've probably all been at the
used car lot right that you getthat kind of a tactic but that
doesn't work really online forselling.
So again going back to theoriginal question where do we
draw that line?
It depends, but most of us knowit.
(17:01):
When we start to cross thatline, when we start to feel like
we know we're crossing thatline, when it's there and we
should probably move, take acouple steps back you inside of
the Copywriter Club, help.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
well, I saw the group .
It's at 15,500 members rightnow and you're helping
copywriters there get better,better copy, better clients,
better paychecks.
What do you typically say tothe person who does have a
program but they're just a bitshy about it?
Selling it, promoting it,speaking about it?
(17:36):
Because I've coached people insimilar situations and I know
somebody who's listening rightnow, who is way, way, way, way,
way too far on the other end ofthe spectrum, like scared to
even talk about what they'regreat at, what they can help at,
because they think that if theysay even one or two things or
(17:56):
send out another email that theyare the sleazy car salesman.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, that's head trash in my opinion.
Email that they are the sleazycar salesman yeah, that's head
trash in my opinion.
And obviously we need to workthrough this stuff in order to
get there.
But, as I said when we firststarted talking, if you have
something that genuinely helpspeople, you owe it to them to
get it into their hands, if youcan, at a fair price, in a way
(18:20):
that is reasonable for you know,can you imagine somebody having
the cure to cancer and this isan extreme but having a cure to
cancer and saying, well, I don'treally want to talk about it
because you know the team helpedme get there and I actually
used some ideas from otherpeople before I came up with my
own breakthrough, and you know.
So I'm just kind of people findit if they really like me or
they hear, you know, otherpeople talking about me and I'm
(18:42):
okay with that.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Like, of course not.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
This.
This is a thing that could helpso many people, right?
So why not shout it from therooftops In saying that,
obviously, do it in the rightway, do it in a way that is
comfortable for you, but thereis definitely a way that you can
get the word out, whether it'swith things like Facebook ads,
which you are so good at andhelping your clients do, and,
(19:05):
like you know, breaking that,that pattern, or getting noticed
and introducing these ideas andgetting them onto a sales page.
Like there's a skillset, and ifyou didn't share your skillset
with marketers who need it, thenthere are.
You know, how many clients doyou have in your groups?
Like dozens, maybe hundreds ofpeople who will not sell as well
as they could, and you owe itto them, kwaijo, to help them if
(19:30):
you can, obviously at a fairprice, obviously in a way that
helps them, right?
Like you're not going to betaking money and selling
something that doesn't work, orcontinually running ads that
fail and fail and fail and keepgoing back to them and saying,
hey, just one more try and we'regoing to get this.
Like you're being very realabout this, but you owe it to
people to use your skills tohelp them.
(19:51):
It's just part of being humanand living in a community.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Agreed, agreed.
I want to let the listener hearabout this emotional copy
workshop.
Can you share why that would bebeneficial and why somebody
should go?
I know I could, but I'll letyou share it.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, so emotions is one of these ideas for capturing
attention, for keepingattention.
We want to work with and learnfrom and hang out with people
that we connect with on anemotional basis, and copywriters
are often told hey, here's howyou write emotional copy.
Add the word you know.
(20:29):
If you want people to feelangry, add the word anger or mad
or you know some related wordlike that to your copy.
You want people to fear missingout on something?
Yeah, talk about how you'refrightened or scared.
Right, they're told to pepperin these words.
I'm just going to say it.
That doesn't work.
(20:50):
Whoever is telling copywritersto do that is feeding them a
line, because I just said anger,mad, frightened, scared, and I
guarantee you there's not asingle listener.
You're not angry or scared orfrightened, right, like, we just
use those words and it doesn'tchange the emotion.
But when we tell stories, whenwe are vulnerable, when we do
(21:14):
things that I share threetactics in that emotional
copywriting workshop.
When we do these things, weactually can evoke emotions, and
it all starts with knowing whatemotions people are feeling and
then what emotions they need totransition to in order to buy.
And so, yeah, I put together aworkshop to help people do that.
(21:35):
And again, this taps into a lotof these marketing tactics
where you're not trying to bemanipulative, you're trying to
make a connection.
You're, in some cases, you'reshowing your own vulnerability
or you're empathizing with theproblems.
Now we do that with emotions,and that's what that workshop is
all about.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
That will be in the show notes below.
I definitely, of course, comingout of this conversation, feel
like listener.
You need to go to this workshop.
I'm going to go to the workshopbecause, ultimately, I know
that I can be a better.
I guess I am a copywriter, huhRob, I always feel like copy is
so difficult for me, but I wantto make sure that my copy is
(22:13):
better and motivate people totake the decisions that I know
they will make.
That benefit their business.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, I mean these skills I think help anybody.
If you have a product or aservice that you're marketing,
having better headlines thatconnect emotionally or having
that hook that is, you know,connects to you or how you feel
or how your clients feel, justmakes it so much more effective.
It's one of those things thatgets people involved with the
(22:43):
message you have to say and then, assuming that you can really
help them, gets them to thatpoint that buying decision where
they can opt in.
I actually put together foryour show, kwaijo.
I was working on this last week.
I started going through andthinking you know, what would be
really helpful is a playbook.
So that workshop sells for like$27.
And I thought if I had aplaybook that I could give to
(23:05):
your listeners that basicallywalks through the three steps of
how do you write an emotionalheadline or an emotional hook
that you know.
And so I kind of created that.
And then I went in to chat GPTand I actually wrote out some
prompts so that if somebodydoesn't want to actually do the
exercise that helps them figureout the emotion, helps them with
(23:28):
the hook or the headline andthen to connect it to the rest
of their ad message, canactually have ChatGPT or Claude
or Mistral or whatever the AIbot that you use do it for you,
and so I put together thislittle playbook, and I didn't
tell you this before we startedrecording.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
You did.
I'm really surprised.
Thank you, it's available atthecopywriterclubcom.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Forward slash smile.
Now I will say it's not free,but it's also not $27.
And the reason that it's gonnabe $1 and the reason it's $1 is
because and you probably knowthis too there are so many lead
magnets and things out therethat I've downloaded into my
downloads folder that I havenever looked at.
And it's because they're freeand I know I'm going to get to
(24:11):
them someday and I never do.
I literally I think I have1,100.
Last time I counted in mydownloads folder of stuff that
I've looked at and thought, oh,I'll get to that someday.
We I counted in my downloadsfolder of stuff that I've looked
at and thought, oh, I'll get tothat someday.
We value the things that we payfor and so, even though it's
almost free, it's $1.
And if anybody wants thatplaybook, they can have it.
And if $1 for some reason is ahurdle too hard for you, message
(24:33):
me directly and I'll figure outa way to get it to you $1.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
No, no, no, no, no.
I do not support that.
$1 is good.
Please don't message Rob sayingcan it be for free?
You didn't know this, Rob, butvery recently, in the past two
months, I basically moved awayfrom my other free lead magnets
for the same reason, and I cansay this with the listener
(24:57):
you're listening to me right now.
If we were in the same room Iwould say all the free lead
magnets that you have.
It's like we've been going fordopamine hits and we feel like,
hey, I made the move.
I gave my email address, I gotthis free lead magnet.
I'm doing something to grow mybusiness.
No, no, you're not.
You're not using it.
(25:18):
I've done it before.
You just admitted to it, Rob.
How many times?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So many times.
It makes me sick how many timesI've been through somebody's
funnel and not ever opened upthe thing I downloaded.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
And putting a little bit of skin in the game and,
honestly, a dollar seems super,super cheap, like, but it's very
, very true, like the thingsthat I've paid for, there's just
something in my mind I paid forthis, I better make use for it,
and so I made that move to yeahabout two months ago.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah it's again.
It's we value the things thatwe pay for.
Obviously, the workshop itselfhas so much more and and there's
a little bit more skin in thegame.
If you pay $27, you're probablygoing to watch that.
There's a bunch of bonuses thatyou can get along with that too
, so you can.
You can check that out whenit's ready.
But if if that feels like toomuch of a commitment and you
(26:06):
just want to see how do youwrite an emotional hook,
emotional headline, go to thecopywriter.
Clubcom forward slash smile.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Forward slash, smile.
Okay, that one is going intothe description.
I have one last question, whichis if you could leave one one
encouragement about persuasion.
What would that be for thelistener?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I would suggest that the more you can learn about
being persuasive would be a goodthing.
I'm not just talking about infor marketing, for marketing
your business, but persuasion ishow we relate to people.
You know, if my wife wants meto empty the dishwasher, it
helps if she has.
You know, a little bit ofpersuasiveness to the request,
(26:48):
right?
If you just make a demand oryou know whatever, then it
doesn't work.
And we apply this to everything.
Everything is sales, everythingis marketing, and that sounds
really harsh to say it that way,but the way that we deal with
other people is us helping themget what they want, them helping
us get what we want.
Vice versa, those relationshipsare all about helping each
(27:12):
other, and the more we knowabout persuasion and how to
persuade people for theirbenefit and for ours, the better
.
So, yeah, if you find a book onit, if you find courses to look
at on it, even write freearticles online, whatever.
The more you can learn aboutpersuasion, the better.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Agreed.
I was just thinking and smiling.
If I hadn't done the work topersuade my wife, look at all
the good that wouldn't have comeinto the world.
I'm thinking about my kids andmy business.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Oh man, it's been a good episode.
Rob, thank you for being hereand just sharing a small moment
with the listenership of the Artof Online Business podcast,
very much appreciated, very muchvalued by me, and I know if the
listener could reach out to you, hopefully they will actually.
What's your preferred method ofsomebody to get in touch with
you?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
I mean I'm kind of everywhere, but it's pretty easy
to track down my email address.
I mentioned it on our podcastall the time.
You know, listen to our podcast, hop into the free Facebook
group if you want.
You know, jump in.
We can even connect on LinkedIn.
I'm out there, pretty easy tofind.
Just look for the CopywriterClub, rob Marsh.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Right on, right on.
I almost used the cliche showRob some love.
But actually I would say, afterknowing about your business,
even back before I had my ownbusiness this is going back four
or five years show yourselfsome love.
Listener, get into Rob'secosphere, hop into his group.
You'll only benefit from that.
And I can say that because I'veobserved his business and know
(28:38):
people that have been inside ofhis paid offers.
And super legit I mean,everybody that comes on the
podcast is legit.
But I just want to say that foryou, rob.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Thank you.
Yeah, well, and you.
If you want to get into theCaprietta Club podcast, a great
place to start.
Kwaijo was on our podcast latein 2024.
It's a great episode.
You can check that out and, ifyou like what you hear, keep
listening Awesome.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, listener, take care.
Until the next time you see meor hear from me, be blessed and
we'll see you in the next one.
Bye.
So I know you've heard that bro marketing is bad.
People throw around the womenin bikinis, the men on private
jets and we all love to hate onbro marketing and I could list
five names pretty quickly, whichI won't.
But here's a good name RobMarsh is here with us today and
we're gonna talk about why notall bro marketing tactics are
(00:22):
bad and what that means for yourbusiness, rob, if you haven't
listened to him on the previousepisode where we got you know
some nice candid snapshots ofhow he's built his business, the
Copywriter Club, and sometransitions and challenges that
he's going through in hisbusiness.
Right now he is a directresponse copywriter who
(00:42):
specializes in email and salespages.
He's written everything fromdirect mail to TV case studies
and a book.
He's worked for clients likeAmerican Express, cedars-sinai
and Pluralsight.
Today he writes primarily fortech companies, software as a
service companies and evenhealth supplemental clients.
When I looked at the CopywriterClub if you haven't heard of it
(01:04):
I see the tagline it's wherecopywriters go to get better
better copy, better clients,better paychecks and maybe, Rob,
you're going to change thattagline soon.
I will see what happens, butthank you for coming on to the
show a second time and I'llshare the same thing I shared
before.
When I read your bio, you saidyou have a very or you're trying
(01:25):
very hard not to have thatsecond donut, and I commented
that copywriters always havethis little something that
tickles your fancy, that, as youcalled in the previous episode
a pattern interrupt.
You being on the podcast hasbeen that pattern interrupt.
I would say a nice, fresh, justamicable interview.
Not that all my interviewsaren't friendly and fun, but I
thoroughly enjoyed our firstepisode together and I'm happy
(01:47):
to welcome you back for a secondone.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Thank you.
I mean, if amicable is apattern interrupt.
Maybe we should do somethingreally adversarial here and
argue and give people somethingto talk about with this second
episode, Right, right, Actuallya little bit of a teaser.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
There may be a more entertaining filter on this
episode, on this podcast comingup in about four months, maybe
sooner.
I'm working on a differentpodcast format, Ooh nice, I
can't wait One that brings on acouple of experts has a twist in
there.
Ooh, that could be fun.
Yeah, I think it's needed.
I think it's needed.
(02:24):
I'm working on it Very cool.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I can't wait to see what that turns out to be.
Ooh, that can be fun.
Yeah, I think it's needed.
I think it's needed.
I'm working on it.
Very cool, I can't wait to seewhat that turns out to be.
Well, there's an open loop.
There's a copywriting tacticfor you.
Keep us all listening for atleast four months till we can
find out what's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Right, what will happen?
And now I've committed myselfon public air to actually make
something happen.
So, bro marketers I've nevermet one of these fabled bro
marketers.
You know, I hear about them.
I feel like there's kind oflike unicorns.
What is a tactic that bromarketers aren't known and
loathed for that you believeactually is good for business?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, let's first you know I think everybody knows
what bro marketers are.
You mentioned.
You know the private jets, thebig houses, the Lamborghinis,
sometimes fanning out hundredsof dollars or whatever, and
really talking about thismassive opportunity you've got
to get in, and I think thoseimages are actually pretty rare.
(03:18):
I mean, there are definitelypeople out there that use them,
and especially in the use themand especially in the biz op
kind of world.
They're out there for sure.
But I think a lot of peoplehave grabbed this term bro
marketer and applied it to allmarketing in a way that is
really unfair to marketing on awhole and makes people afraid to
(03:42):
actually do marketing.
And so I've talked about thisseveral times.
But I am a fan of marketing, Ilove marketing, I love what it
does, I love how it works, Ilove doing it, I love figuring
out the problems and solving allthose issues.
I'm guessing most of the peoplethat listen to your podcast, cry
Joe, are marketers who lovethis thing that we all do, and
(04:04):
when we hear people talkingabout how bad marketing is bro
marketing whatever sometimes westart feeling bad about it.
In fact, I once gave apresentation, a talk, about how
marketers can use the tacticsthat con men you know,
confidence men use in order todo good in the world.
And after I gave thatpresentation, somebody came up
(04:26):
to me and said I don't I meanthanks for the talk at all, but
you made me feel like I'm a conman and that was not my
intention at all.
You know, after hearing thatfeedback, I'm like, okay, I got
to rework this presentationbecause I was focused way too
much on the negative and not onthe positive.
But there's a lot of baby inthat bathwater that we like to
(04:48):
throw away.
You know, and say, hey, you knowall of that, bro, marketing
stuff is bad.
So, yeah, I can go through.
You know the tactics of why Ithink that we still need them.
But let me just say that ifyour product works so I mean, if
your product doesn't work thenyeah, you should not be
marketing it.
You have no business selling itto anybody.
(05:08):
That's bad.
But if your product works, youowe it to your potential
customers to get it in theirhands at a price that is fair,
in a way that doesn't takeadvantage of them, but that
helps them solve the problemthat they have.
And if you do that, then themarketing tactics that you work
are going to naturally be prettydarn good.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
That is a very, very good point.
I think somebody needs to hearthat today.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, I mean yeah, we can go on and on about the
specifics as well, but if you'reserving people, you're probably
doing a good thing.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
That reminds me of the phrase selling is serving,
not my own.
It that reminds me of thephrase selling is serving, not
my own.
It's one that I picked up froma guy I used to work with, but I
believe it's true.
I believe it's true.
I believe we were put here.
I believe we have our skillsand our gifts and our passions,
and we are meant to serve andwork with people.
And without selling, how are wegoing to be a blessing and a
(06:02):
transformative agent in folks'lives?
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
So can I give you some examples, please, please do
.
I'm guessing many of yourguests have heard of this
writing formula PAS, the lettersP-A-S.
It stands for problem, agitate,solve.
Lot of people take issue withthe idea of agitating the pain
(06:26):
or the problem that people havewhen you're talking to them in
marketing.
So they say that when youagitate that pain, you're making
people feel bad aboutthemselves, you're making them
uncomfortable, which isn't agood thing.
And I don't necessarily disagreewith that, although helping
people understand how bad theirproblem is, if it leads to a
(06:49):
solution, can be a good thing.
But obviously we don't want tocause more trauma.
We don't.
We don't want to make thingsworse for them.
So I would just maybe twist thatjust a little bit and think
about you don't agitate theproblem or the pain in order to
make people feel bad.
You do it in order to empathizewith them and show them that
(07:09):
you understand what they'regoing through, so that you can
say to them look, I hear you,I've, I've been there.
If you have actually been there, you've been through the same
kind of thing, or, or you know,I can empathize with you and
because of that I have thisthing that's going to solve the
problem for you.
Right like that is a salesmessage that works, and it does
(07:30):
it in a way that is uh helpful.
Now, sometimes we do have tohelp people feel like how bad
that pain is right, and so thatin that case, agitation isn't
necessarily bad, as long asyou're not using it to
traumatize or to manipulate.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
True.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly so.
Other things, like people talkall the time about countdown
timers are a bro marketingtactic because it, you know,
makes people feel like they'vegot to make a decision right now
.
Right, and there is that elementto it.
But a lot of programs are timebound, they start on a
particular day and, in order tohelp people decide to join, it
(08:11):
helps to have a countdown timersaying, hey, this offer does end
Right, and after the offer isover, you can't get it anymore.
And so again, doing it from aplace where you're helping your
customers, as opposed to tryingto get something out of them or
manipulate them into making adecision, is a good thing.
So, and we could, you know,same thing applies for, you know
(08:31):
, scarcity and risk removal.
You know where, where we try tomake it an easy decision for
people by lowering the price orgiving them a free trial or
offering a money back guarantee.
Like all of these tactics areeffective marketing, and just
because bro marketers use themdoes not mean that they're bad.
It means that we're trying tohelp people get to a solution
(08:53):
that helps them ultimately solvea problem.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I've been helped out of a place of indecision with
timers and so far, the courses Ibought, I haven't regretted
purchasing them.
I have yet to get a bad one.
Maybe that's just me.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, I mean there are definitely bad courses out
there, there are bad actors outthere.
There's a reason why we talkabout, you know, bro, marketers
or any of the other you know,surkets that we use to refer to
people, but most marketers aregood and are trying to help.
Let me give you one otherexample, because I've heard this
(09:30):
a lot, where people say well,you know the product, all you're
selling is hope, right.
So my mom, before she passedaway, had Alzheimer's disease
and obviously Alzheimer's is aterrible thing to get there's no
hope for a solution.
You know it's going to end badly.
And as she was starting to dealwith this diagnosis and what
(09:52):
was going on, she went onlineand she found some tapes and a
couple of books.
I think that you know it's likebrain energy and the promises
there were.
You know, helps you rememberthings and they may even have
stretched the truth a bit intoyou know, helps delay the onset
of Alzheimer's disease.
My mom bought those and you knowwhen, after she passed away,
(10:14):
you know, and I was cleaning outsome of her stuff I found these
products.
Now you could argue that theproducts didn't work and it was
bad and she shouldn't have beensold these products.
Now you could argue that theproducts didn't work and it was
bad and she shouldn't have been,you know, sold these products.
But I would argue that thoseproducts gave my mom something
really precious in the yearsthat she was alive, and that was
hope.
She had some hope that she wouldfind a solution or that there
(10:36):
would be.
You know some way to, if notovercome it, delay the symptoms
and the things that she wasfeeling, and to her $100 or $200
, whatever those things cost togive her that hope in some ways
was way more precious than anactual solution.
You know, if there was asolution out there could be Like
(10:59):
.
Hope is an awesome thing togive people.
Now I am not arguing that weshould sell products that don't
work or that we shouldmanipulate people based on hope,
but I am saying that when wegive people hope that there is a
solution for their problem andand can back it up, that's a
good thing, and I I saw that inthis thing that you know, maybe
was a little bit dubious, thatmy mom bought and again, I think
(11:22):
that's a good thing andsomething that marketers should
be proud of.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I agree, I definitely agree.
I feel like hope is a force.
What's the opposite of hope?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Despair.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I met somebody who had a lot of despair recently.
They'll never listen to this,this podcast, but I remember
sitting down with them.
It was an old friend and itjust if the cart, the cartoon
depiction of the storm cloudthat's just following you around
(11:54):
and raining on you.
This was that person and I meanI'm super optimistic like to
meet new people.
They were like not trusting ofpeople and it seemed like during
what I thought was an amazingtrip, like everything went right
for me, everything went wrongfor them, in the matter of a day
(12:16):
that we were together, even tothe point where we're sitting
down for coffee, and this weirdspiny looking pine cone not pine
cone, seed acorn thing droppedon our table and was like mashed
.
I'm like what the heck?
That has never happened to mebefore and they were like, yeah,
you know I would.
(12:37):
I'm not surprised this kind ofstuff happens.
I'm like, oh my gosh, like weneed to not hang out anymore.
But to your point, it'sdefinitely good to give somebody
hope, and especially so whenit's tied with a program that
actually can deliver.
So I have a question, and Ithink the listener might have
had this question too when isthe line?
(12:59):
Can you speak to that as acopywriter?
Where is the line?
Can you speak to that as acopywriter?
Good agitation versus badagitation.
How far do you go to agitate aproblem for good before it
becomes?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
triggering.
This is a little bit like theSupreme Court justice when they
were looking at the definitionof pornography.
They're like I know it when Isee it.
So it is hard to say this isexactly where the line is.
And I know a lot of us reallywant to say, yeah, the line is
right here and you can go rightup to the line and be okay, and
(13:30):
then, once you step over theline, everything is bad and it's
just not like that.
There's a lot of gray spacewhere a tactic might be okay in
one situation but woulddefinitely be bad in another
situation.
So but I would say this ifyou're, if you're manipulating
and you are trying to get peopleto act and I would define
manipulation as acting againstsomebody's will not necessarily
(13:54):
because sometimes we manipulatepeople to do things that are in
their interest, especially asparents.
We do this all the time, rightLike you know.
Here comes the choo-choo trainand we stick a you know a bit of
cauliflower into a kid's mouthinstead of apple or whatever.
Right Like we're, we manipulateour children all the time and,
by the way, our childrenmanipulate us right back, you
know it is a very human thing todo the things that that get us
(14:17):
the things we want.
So so we gotta be a little bitcareful about that.
But if you are manipulatingpeople to act against their own
interests or even the way thatthey want to act, like they
would not choose to do this forthemselves at this time, even if
it would be good for them, it'sprobably not a great thing.
There are exceptions, you know.
Like if you manipulate peopleor a person to stop taking
(14:39):
heroin, very few people aregoing to say that's a bad thing,
right, even though we may bemanipulating them.
But we're not talking aboutthat kind of case.
We're talking about sellingyour product or your service or
whatever the thing is, and inthose cases we should not be
impeding people's free will,people's free will.
(15:05):
And so the dark side ofmarketing where we set up these
things, like the buy button thatsays I'm 100% in and then right
below it it says no, I lovefailure or I want to keep
failing all my life.
Those dark patterns are uglyand manipulative and, yeah,
those are bad.
But a button that says yes, I'm100% in, and then the button
underneath says no, I'm notready for this right now.
That's fine, right?
(15:26):
We give people the option todecide yes or no, right?
We're not taking away theiragency.
That's where I would draw theline.
And again, if you're trying toget somebody off heroin, fine,
manipulate a little bit, but I'mnot talking about that stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Now I'm thinking of a button at the bottom of my
upsell page that says like yes,I want these Canva templates,
and then right underneath itsays like no, my ads already
have enough scroll scrollstopping power already, or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
And to me that feels probably okay, right, because if
I do feel that way, like if Idon't need Canva templates, or
maybe I have another option andI can create my own and I don't
need your particular templates,right, like that's okay, my ads,
you're not really beingmanipulative there.
But if it said, no, I never wantto succeed, no, I'm happy with
(16:20):
ads that don't perform Right,like that, takes that decision
and turns it into moremanipulation, where we're making
people feel bad about the thingthat they're doing as opposed
to giving them a yes, nodecision.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, it's like we're beating them up, we're bullying
them, like we would do that.
Well, hopefully we wouldn't dothat in real life.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I don't think that you would.
I mean, maybe there are somewe've probably all been at the
used car lot right that you getthat kind of a tactic but that
doesn't work really online forselling.
So again going back to theoriginal question where do we
draw that line?
It depends, but most of us knowit.
(17:01):
When we start to cross thatline, when we start to feel like
we know we're crossing thatline, when it's there and we
should probably move, take acouple steps back you inside of
the Copywriter Club, help.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
well, I saw the group .
It's at 15,500 members rightnow and you're helping
copywriters there get better,better copy, better clients,
better paychecks.
What do you typically say tothe person who does have a
program but they're just a bitshy about it?
Selling it, promoting it,speaking about it?
(17:36):
Because I've coached people insimilar situations and I know
somebody who's listening rightnow, who is way, way, way, way,
way too far on the other end ofthe spectrum, like scared to
even talk about what they'regreat at, what they can help at,
because they think that if theysay even one or two things or
(17:56):
send out another email that theyare the sleazy car salesman.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, that's head trash in my opinion.
Email that they are the sleazycar salesman yeah, that's head
trash in my opinion.
And obviously we need to workthrough this stuff in order to
get there.
But, as I said when we firststarted talking, if you have
something that genuinely helpspeople, you owe it to them to
get it into their hands, if youcan, at a fair price, in a way
(18:20):
that is reasonable for you know,can you imagine somebody having
the cure to cancer and this isan extreme but having a cure to
cancer and saying, well, I don'treally want to talk about it
because you know the team helpedme get there and I actually
used some ideas from otherpeople before I came up with my
own breakthrough, and you know.
So I'm just kind of people findit if they really like me or
they hear, you know, otherpeople talking about me and I'm
(18:42):
okay with that.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Like, of course not.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
This.
This is a thing that could helpso many people, right?
So why not shout it from therooftops In saying that,
obviously, do it in the rightway, do it in a way that is
comfortable for you, but thereis definitely a way that you can
get the word out, whether it'swith things like Facebook ads,
which you are so good at andhelping your clients do, and,
(19:05):
like you know, breaking that,that pattern, or getting noticed
and introducing these ideas andgetting them onto a sales page.
Like there's a skillset, and ifyou didn't share your skillset
with marketers who need it, thenthere are.
You know, how many clients doyou have in your groups?
Like dozens, maybe hundreds ofpeople who will not sell as well
as they could, and you owe itto them, kwaijo, to help them if
(19:30):
you can, obviously at a fairprice, obviously in a way that
helps them, right?
Like you're not going to betaking money and selling
something that doesn't work, orcontinually running ads that
fail and fail and fail and keepgoing back to them and saying,
hey, just one more try and we'regoing to get this.
Like you're being very realabout this, but you owe it to
people to use your skills tohelp them.
(19:51):
It's just part of being humanand living in a community.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Agreed, agreed.
I want to let the listener hearabout this emotional copy
workshop.
Can you share why that would bebeneficial and why somebody
should go?
I know I could, but I'll letyou share it.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, so emotions is one of these ideas for capturing
attention, for keepingattention.
We want to work with and learnfrom and hang out with people
that we connect with on anemotional basis, and copywriters
are often told hey, here's howyou write emotional copy.
Add the word you know.
(20:29):
If you want people to feelangry, add the word anger or mad
or you know some related wordlike that to your copy.
You want people to fear missingout on something?
Yeah, talk about how you'refrightened or scared.
Right, they're told to pepperin these words.
I'm just going to say it.
That doesn't work.
(20:50):
Whoever is telling copywritersto do that is feeding them a
line, because I just said anger,mad, frightened, scared, and I
guarantee you there's not asingle listener.
You're not angry or scared orfrightened, right, like, we just
use those words and it doesn'tchange the emotion.
But when we tell stories, whenwe are vulnerable, when we do
(21:14):
things that I share threetactics in that emotional
copywriting workshop.
When we do these things, weactually can evoke emotions, and
it all starts with knowing whatemotions people are feeling and
then what emotions they need totransition to in order to buy.
And so, yeah, I put together aworkshop to help people do that.
(21:35):
And again, this taps into a lotof these marketing tactics
where you're not trying to bemanipulative, you're trying to
make a connection.
You're, in some cases, you'reshowing your own vulnerability
or you're empathizing with theproblems.
Now we do that with emotions,and that's what that workshop is
all about.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
That will be in the show notes below.
I definitely, of course, comingout of this conversation, feel
like listener.
You need to go to this workshop.
I'm going to go to the workshopbecause, ultimately, I know
that I can be a better.
I guess I am a copywriter, huhRob, I always feel like copy is
so difficult for me, but I wantto make sure that my copy is
(22:13):
better and motivate people totake the decisions that I know
they will make.
That benefit their business.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, I mean these skills I think help anybody.
If you have a product or aservice that you're marketing,
having better headlines thatconnect emotionally or having
that hook that is, you know,connects to you or how you feel
or how your clients feel, justmakes it so much more effective.
It's one of those things thatgets people involved with the
(22:43):
message you have to say and then, assuming that you can really
help them, gets them to thatpoint that buying decision where
they can opt in.
I actually put together foryour show, kwaijo.
I was working on this last week.
I started going through andthinking you know, what would be
really helpful is a playbook.
So that workshop sells for like$27.
And I thought if I had aplaybook that I could give to
(23:05):
your listeners that basicallywalks through the three steps of
how do you write an emotionalheadline or an emotional hook
that you know.
And so I kind of created that.
And then I went in to chat GPTand I actually wrote out some
prompts so that if somebodydoesn't want to actually do the
exercise that helps them figureout the emotion, helps them with
(23:28):
the hook or the headline andthen to connect it to the rest
of their ad message, canactually have ChatGPT or Claude
or Mistral or whatever the AIbot that you use do it for you,
and so I put together thislittle playbook, and I didn't
tell you this before we startedrecording.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
You did.
I'm really surprised.
Thank you, it's available atthecopywriterclubcom.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Forward slash smile.
Now I will say it's not free,but it's also not $27.
And the reason that it's gonnabe $1 and the reason it's $1 is
because and you probably knowthis too there are so many lead
magnets and things out therethat I've downloaded into my
downloads folder that I havenever looked at.
And it's because they're freeand I know I'm going to get to
(24:11):
them someday and I never do.
I literally I think I have1,100.
Last time I counted in mydownloads folder of stuff that
I've looked at and thought, oh,I'll get to that someday.
We I counted in my downloadsfolder of stuff that I've looked
at and thought, oh, I'll get tothat someday.
We value the things that we payfor and so, even though it's
almost free, it's $1.
And if anybody wants thatplaybook, they can have it.
And if $1 for some reason is ahurdle too hard for you, message
(24:33):
me directly and I'll figure outa way to get it to you $1.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
No, no, no, no, no.
I do not support that.
$1 is good.
Please don't message Rob sayingcan it be for free?
You didn't know this, Rob, butvery recently, in the past two
months, I basically moved awayfrom my other free lead magnets
for the same reason, and I cansay this with the listener
(24:57):
you're listening to me right now.
If we were in the same room Iwould say all the free lead
magnets that you have.
It's like we've been going fordopamine hits and we feel like,
hey, I made the move.
I gave my email address, I gotthis free lead magnet.
I'm doing something to grow mybusiness.
No, no, you're not.
You're not using it.
(25:18):
I've done it before.
You just admitted to it, Rob.
How many times?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So many times.
It makes me sick how many timesI've been through somebody's
funnel and not ever opened upthe thing I downloaded.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
And putting a little bit of skin in the game and,
honestly, a dollar seems super,super cheap, like, but it's very
, very true, like the thingsthat I've paid for, there's just
something in my mind I paid forthis, I better make use for it,
and so I made that move to yeahabout two months ago.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah it's again.
It's we value the things thatwe pay for.
Obviously, the workshop itselfhas so much more and and there's
a little bit more skin in thegame.
If you pay $27, you're probablygoing to watch that.
There's a bunch of bonuses thatyou can get along with that too
, so you can.
You can check that out whenit's ready.
But if if that feels like toomuch of a commitment and you
(26:06):
just want to see how do youwrite an emotional hook,
emotional headline, go to thecopywriter.
Clubcom forward slash smile.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Forward slash, smile.
Okay, that one is going intothe description.
I have one last question, whichis if you could leave one one
encouragement about persuasion.
What would that be for thelistener?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I would suggest that the more you can learn about
being persuasive would be a goodthing.
I'm not just talking about infor marketing, for marketing
your business, but persuasion ishow we relate to people.
You know, if my wife wants meto empty the dishwasher, it
helps if she has.
You know, a little bit ofpersuasiveness to the request,
(26:48):
right?
If you just make a demand oryou know whatever, then it
doesn't work.
And we apply this to everything.
Everything is sales, everythingis marketing, and that sounds
really harsh to say it that way,but the way that we deal with
other people is us helping themget what they want, them helping
us get what we want.
Vice versa, those relationshipsare all about helping each
(27:12):
other, and the more we knowabout persuasion and how to
persuade people for theirbenefit and for ours, the better
.
So, yeah, if you find a book onit, if you find courses to look
at on it, even write freearticles online, whatever.
The more you can learn aboutpersuasion, the better.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Agreed.
I was just thinking and smiling.
If I hadn't done the work topersuade my wife, look at all
the good that wouldn't have comeinto the world.
I'm thinking about my kids andmy business.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Oh man, it's been a good episode.
Rob, thank you for being hereand just sharing a small moment
with the listenership of the Artof Online Business podcast,
very much appreciated, very muchvalued by me, and I know if the
listener could reach out to you, hopefully they will actually.
What's your preferred method ofsomebody to get in touch with
you?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
I mean I'm kind of everywhere, but it's pretty easy
to track down my email address.
I mentioned it on our podcastall the time.
You know, listen to our podcast, hop into the free Facebook
group if you want.
You know, jump in.
We can even connect on LinkedIn.
I'm out there, pretty easy tofind.
Just look for the CopywriterClub, rob Marsh.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Right on, right on.
I almost used the cliche showRob some love.
But actually I would say, afterknowing about your business,
even back before I had my ownbusiness this is going back four
or five years show yourselfsome love.
Listener, get into Rob'secosphere, hop into his group.
You'll only benefit from that.
And I can say that because I'veobserved his business and know
(28:38):
people that have been inside ofhis paid offers.
And super legit I mean,everybody that comes on the
podcast is legit.
But I just want to say that foryou, rob.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Thank you.
Yeah, well, and you.
If you want to get into theCaprietta Club podcast, a great
place to start.
Kwaijo was on our podcast latein 2024.
It's a great episode.
You can check that out and, ifyou like what you hear, keep
listening Awesome.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, listener, take care.
Until the next time you see meor hear from me, be blessed and
we'll see you in the next one.
Bye.
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