March 19, 2025 • 32 mins
Read the show notes at: https://malphursgroup.com/282
In this episode of The Church Revitalization Podcast, hosts Scott Ball and A.J. Mathieu delve into the challenges churches face when trying to implement their ministry vision. They explore different archetypes of individuals who may unintentionally or intentionally hinder progress, inspired by Dr. Aubrey Malphurs' work "Developing a Vision for Ministry." Drawing from biblical examples, such as the story of Nehemiah, the hosts discuss how internal and external oppositions manifest and provide strategies for overcoming them with resilience. Whether it's addressing the concerns of vision vampires, navigating the critiques of vision vultures, or working with vision firemen who prefer the status quo, this episode offers insights and actionable advice for church leaders committed to revitalizing their ministries. Plus, discover the importance of remembering God's past, present, and future goodness in navigating challenges. Join us for this thought-provoking conversation rooted in scripture and experience.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Who is blocking your ministry vision? We're
talking about a few different options today on the Church Revitalization
Podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Church
Revitalization Podcast brought to you by the Malphurs Group
team, where each week we tackle important, actionable
topics to help churches thrive. And now, here's your
(00:22):
hosts, Scott Ball and A.J. Mathieu.
Welcome to the Church Revitalization podcast. My name is Scott Ball. I'm joined by my
friend and cohost A.J. Mathieu. Round of
applause. We'll put that in later. Yeah.
We won't. But, but hopefully, you as you're
(00:43):
driving or you're listening, you're sitting there at your computer. Just give a
little clap for my friend, A.J.. Alright. Today, we're talking
about who's blocking your ministry vision.
And, I guess from the very top, let me give let me
give props to the founder of our organization,
doctor Aubrey Balfour. He's with the lord now, but, he
(01:06):
first wrote this book, Developing a Vision for Ministry, all the way
back in 1992, if you can believe it. And then it went through
three editions. So this this latest version, I think, came out in what
was it, A.J.? Twenty Twenty fifteen. Twenty fifteen. So so I mean,
that's got ten years on it, but it's a great it's a great,
read. It holds up really well. And, the inspiration
(01:29):
for today's article and podcast,
episode comes from chapter eight, the the final
chapter, which is about preserving the vision. This is this is
a, this is a challenge,
in the in the church when you I think we think that
we do all this hard work. We put the team together.
(01:52):
We have the meetings. We get everything kind of
arranged and written up, and we start presenting it. And there's
maybe even some initial excitement about the future of the
church and where things are going. And then some people start
trying to to block the vision, and you can start to get
discouraged. And so today, we're gonna be walking through the
(02:14):
three kind of arc archetypes of
people who are likely going to be in the way.
But maybe before we dive into that, A.J., I think maybe let's take a
step back for a second and look at a biblical example of this. We see
this in scripture. And when there's a vision presented, sometimes there's some
resistance. Yeah. For sure. This is a well, it's a book near and dear
(02:37):
to your heart, I know, Scott. The book of Nehemiah, and it's been brought up
on the podcast numerous times, but for good reason. I think there's so many great
parallels, you know, between church revitalization and the work
of, you know, of rebuilding Jerusalem, the walls and and the city and the people
and, you
Aubrey hearkens back also to Nehemiah in this in that,
(03:00):
you know, he comes he comes back on the scene, returns to Jerusalem, you know,
with this vision, to rebuild the walls
and is met with opposition,
both internally and externally, meaning the, you
know, the the remnant there of of the Israelites,
the the Jews, and the people outside, you know, the
(03:22):
beyond Jerusalem that didn't wanna see those walls get built either.
You know, I don't know. Scott, you think the
internal opposition came as a surprise to Nehemiah? Was he did he
figure I'm I'm marching in? I got, I got the power of the king
behind me. Everybody's gonna welcome me with open arms, and this is just
gonna go swimmingly, or do you think he
(03:44):
anticipated, internal opposition? You know,
I don't know. I can't I have no idea what he was thinking necessarily, but,
you need you have to remember for Nehemiah that the problem that
he's seeking to resolve is a problem that had existed
for a hundred years. Yeah. And you
(04:06):
don't one does not resolve an
entrenched hundred year problem
in as few days as he does without
encountering resistance. Because whenever you have a problem like that,
then there's probably an entrenched bureaucracy. There's a reason
why the problem hasn't been solved. That's a great point.
(04:29):
And the problem is is usually people,
and not and not the the problem itself. Yeah. Man, you
know what? Okay. This is a great point because it's it is
with frequency. We get a call from a pastor, maybe
some other leader in the church. We have a conversation about what are the options
for revitalization. Give give them some good information.
(04:51):
They take it back to, you know, a meeting or a series of meetings, and
then the conclusion becomes, we think we can do this ourselves.
And, you have to ask, and you and I
offline ask each other this whenever we come across this. If you think you can
do it now, how come you haven't done it prior to now? And there that's
me and my situation. We got a hundred years of the walls,
(05:13):
being down, and there's a reason. And it's because there
was people there that didn't want to or had other excuses for it
just like commonly in the church. And even some legitimate reasons,
like, I mean, the political you know, when they're when they're under
Babylon Yeah. You know, then well, first of all,
when they're under Babylon, basically, no one is living there at at that
(05:36):
point, anyway, who who is Jewish.
It's only when when Persia allows them to start coming back
that they start coming back. So I guess to be to be
generous, this is a problem that they had the potential of solving for maybe
only thirty years or something like that. So it's but it's
still a decades long problem at this point. Yeah. It could have been
(05:58):
resolved. They've they've started rebuilding the temple and so on. So, I
mean, they've it isn't like they hadn't done anything, but the walls
themselves are are in ruins. And and, yeah, you're
right that you have Nehemiah who is he's he's an outsider in that
he's never lived in Jerusalem, but he's an insider in that he
is is part of the the family, so to speak, as as a
(06:20):
Jew. Yeah. And so he's like, it's it's this it's time. It's
time to solve this problem. You know, we don't need
to we don't need to get into all this. You know, a lot of the
people a lot of the criticism that he's getting is that people were accusing
him of self dealing. Well, you're just in this for you.
And he's, and he's like, wait, what? You know, far
(06:42):
be it. Like, that's not, I'm not in this for, I'm not in this for
me. You know? And in fact, he,
the the allowance that he was supposed to be getting as the governor, he uses
to to feed the people, and his assistance and so on. Like,
he's he's not making he's not making money,
doing this. And so common argument even in modern political
(07:04):
landscapes that, you're saying you're here to do something for us,
but we think you really are just doing this for yourself. Doing this for yourself.
Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, to be fair, we we I I
don't know that people say this directly to our faces, but I think one of
the challenges in the kind of work that we do, especially since, you know, we
we have things like the Healthy Church Toolkit, and there's fees associated with
(07:25):
registering for that if you you're if you're inside North America, you know, or the
work that we do in consulting with churches, there's fees associated with that.
People don't have to shop too much to realize that our fees are as as
low as anybody's that you would encounter except maybe a denomination that's offering
something for free. We can't do things entirely for free.
(07:45):
But, you know, you get accused of, well, you're just trying to make you're just
trying to make a buck. And that isn't we we wanna feed
our families. You know, we have an obligation to our families. Yeah. That isn't
our motivation. The we do things all the time for people
for at for at no cost and or no. We're not bragging about that. We're
just I'm just saying, you know, these kinds of things can cut
(08:06):
deep. I can I can I can, I'm not comparing myself to Nehemiah?
He's he's a leader I look up to immensely. But I can relate
a little bit in going, well, hold on a minute. That those kinds of accusations
hurt when you when you hear someone say, you're just doing this for the money
because you go home. Well, no. I wanted to go make money. There would be
better ways to make money. Yeah. That's that's not that isn't a
(08:28):
motivation for us. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah. There's a
there's a lot of things in in the church in which people get
paid to do them. And so if if that's your position, anybody doing
anything in the church is only doing it for the money, then I don't know.
See how many pastors we have if they're not compensated, see how
many, you know, other leaders we have. We have to go down that path. Was
(08:49):
just saying, like, I I mean, but it's it's related in the sense
that, yeah, I mean, I guess we're kinda
getting to the heart of the matter. We're we're gonna get into these archetypes because
that's the the heart of this, episode. But, you
know, I think that this is the this is the challenge, actually. We we're touching
on even in our own little corner of of this
(09:10):
is that when people come and attack, you it's easy to
feel defensive and go, well, hold on. And that's not, you're
attacking my motivations, and you don't know what my motivations are.
Yeah. I can say it. I can say that's not that's not my motivation, but
you could go, well, then well, then why do you charge money for anything at
all? I go, well, because, you know, I don't know. I got I got a
(09:30):
I got a mortgage payment. That's that's why.
Yeah. Like like, my
my my bank doesn't take hopes and dreams and aspirations as a form of
payment, and good intentions.
So, that doesn't make me motivated by money. Anyways,
I I think that but and and extrapolate that out. So whatever when we
(09:52):
when you talk about division in your church, you wanna change something, you wanna do
something different. God's given a bold vision for the future of your church, and someone
says something about you that hurts you. Well, you know, they accuse
your theological positions or they accuse you just wanna become a
celebrity pastor or, you know, this is all about your ego or you're a
narcissist or whatever it might be. It's easy to go, well,
(10:14):
hold on a minute. You don't that's not that's not my motivation. That's not why
I'm doing this. I'm not doing this so that we become the coolest church in
town. I'm doing this so that we can reach the lost. Like, it's, you know,
it's easy to get caught in that trap of feeling defensive about what
your motivations are. And and Nehemiah does this. That's why
the book actually is I'm sorry. I'm getting sidetracked on this. But the book's a
(10:36):
prayer. You know, it's a prayer journal. Nehemiah's like,
search my heart, Lord. He he's he's it's an invitation. Lord, if
there's if you see any imputable offense,
please show me. You know, reveal to me any motive I
might have that's impure. Yeah. Anyway so I
think one more, excuse me, one more setup, before
(10:59):
we jump into these three archetypes that that Aubrey had in there that I
think is just really important to keep in mind as well in the external
versus internal opposition. External opposition
to our vision is often a motivator. You know? Like Mhmm.
People on the outside going, ah, that's crazy. You know, that
sometimes with that that particular visionary leader and the
(11:20):
people that are in support of that vision are like, well, we'll show them, you
know, when we we unify, we get to work, we work hard, you
know, to prove them wrong. It's a it can be a motivator. Whereas the
internal opposition can have a much more damaging effect.
It well, it almost always has a more damaging effect. Because
now you might be getting people that are opposing you that you thought were
(11:43):
close to you. You know? I mean, something you're excited about. Hey. I've got this
great thing. I think the Lord's wanting to do it. And you expect
from them also excitement and motivation, and instead you
get opposition. That can really cut deep.
And, and I you know, we experience this in various parts of life
even. You know? I mean, with our family, with our friends, you know, you you,
(12:05):
when you have an expectation for something and it turns out to not be that
way, you're like, oh my gosh. That's it's demotivating.
Yes. And so I think these are really important things to keep
in mind as we, you know, especially for you listening, you're thinking
about, you know, maybe trying to present vision to your church and and work on
a revitalization effort. It's it's just good to have these
(12:28):
things in mind and be prepared, and perhaps
even be able to understand the people around you that you're gonna need to
be a part of it prior to this. You know?
I think because then you can manage maybe expectations properly and,
and even strategies going forward. So with that, Scott,
let's jump into our three, kind of, archetypes for
(12:51):
vision blockers. Yeah. Okay. So our first
one is a vision vampire. Let me just
pause briefly and say these terms came from Aubrey, and I love
them. I love I love them, and it makes me miss them. I'm like, this
is It is good stuff. Classic classic Aubrey Malthers,
and, yeah, we miss you. So,
(13:13):
vision vampires vision vampires, consciously or unconsciously,
they drain the light. They're just sucking the blood out of a new
vision. They hear something new that the
church wants to do, a different direction, a fresh direction, and they
can't wait to sink their teeth into it and just suck it dry.
Usually, a vision vampire, though, has
(13:35):
some sort of principled motivation. They
see the vision as an attack on something
fundamental to the existence of the church. And I think the the point that's
worth remembering here is that vision vampires
are are often well intentioned in that
they they see themselves as defenders of the faith, and they don't
(13:57):
have a clear understanding on the difference between something that
is essential and something that is pref preferential, just their
preferences versus something that's, you know,
truly rooted in scripture. So maybe it would be best to think of an
example. This is a common one that I see pop up in lots of
churches, and that would be moving to two services. So if a
(14:19):
church is growing and they're like, we need to go to two services to
accommodate the space, It does not take long for a vision vampire to to
crop up. Sometimes they're even on staff or they're on the board, and they
go, we can't do that. We can't do that because if we do that, we're
not one church anymore. We're actually two churches, and they have this
fundamental belief that it's not possible to
(14:40):
have a healthy church that has two services, that it will
somehow break the fellowship or cause disunity. And I often point out
that if you get in a big enough room, you don't know everybody in there
anyway. I mean, that's usually the argument. Right, A.J.? That,
well, you know, everyone won't know everybody. Everybody already
doesn't know everybody. So what's what's the difference?
(15:02):
But, you know, they they think that they're fighting for
something biblical, not just it's their preference.
Yeah. Yeah. I had that. You just reminded me. I've mentioned this on the
podcast before. I had, I think he was an elder in a church,
but definitely a high level leader who really wanted the
pastor to know, everybody by
(15:24):
name and face. I mean, just to memorize the congregation.
And, and I think that's kind of what you're what you're thinking. You know? And
I think for him, that was like, this is our chief shepherd,
and he has to know the sheep. And, and if he doesn't,
then he's not able to do, you know, this foundational
function of the ministry. So I think, again, it was it was
(15:47):
a well intentioned, though not well thought out, you know, opposition, I
believe, you know, when faced with the question
of what would that number be then, how many do you think is reasonable for
somebody to memorize, you know, there was no he had no clear
answer for that. But, but I think that's kind of along the same lines,
as what you're speaking of. Yeah. Absolutely. So, you
(16:09):
know, I think, that's that's definitely the first one is
this vision vampire, and and the the hallmark
of these are people who believe that they're fighting for something
fundamental, and that's why they view it as as a
compulsion. They they have to kill this thing,
because if they don't, then they're not standing up to it. So the solution to
(16:30):
this obviously is maybe addressing their core concern Yeah. Yeah.
Pastorally and go, hey. I think that we might
be coming at this from different perspectives. You know, we're moving to two
services because we don't we don't think it'd be a good
good stewardship for us to build a new, you know,
sanctuary that can seat all of us. We don't think it would be honoring to
(16:53):
the Lord to put an artificial cap on the number
of people that we can should reach. And
we're not in a position to plant a church tomorrow.
And so in this season, as the Lord is blessing us,
the solution that we've seen to be able to accommodate the growth
and to continue to reaching people with the good news, because two thirds of the
(17:15):
people in our community are perishing without the Lord, is for us to add
additional service so that more people can grow in the gospel.
Now what questions do you have about that, or what concerns do you have about
that, and how can we address them? And, you know, they go, well, I just
don't think it'll be the same. I just don't think that we're gonna you know?
Then deal with that and go, well, it sounds like you're having a nostalgia feeling
as to you know, versus what's your theological arm argument,
(17:39):
and what is your solution? What would you see the church do? How would you
address this challenge? And let them talk it through, and they may eventually come around
to it. But you you need don't just argue with them, present the
case. And if you've got someone who's totally intransigent,
you gotta you gotta hang in there. You can't just go, okay. Alright. Yeah.
I mean, and just fold. You can't you can't
(18:01):
let go of the vision because there's some criticism. So Yeah.
You gotta hang tough. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So our second,
vision blocker is, another good double v
word here, vision vulture. So we had vision vampires sucking
the lifeblood out. Now we've got vision vultures. And what is, what's
the MO of the vulture? Well, it's to, it's to find
(18:24):
something available and pick it apart, just
dig in there and and see what you can what you can get out of
it. And I think that's another really good good example here of
people that we encounter in the church that they hear of the vision,
and their first inclination is just to get into, maybe
even at that level, even some unnecessary details, but just bring it
(18:47):
up. Well, what would not work about that? What's wrong with that? What
are the the small things that would go against what we normally
do? And, I mean, this is one
for sure we can all imagine somebody in our mind that,
that we work with or are a part of our church that,
that are just picking at everything. I don't know what their, you
(19:10):
know, their main motivator is. I think that
would vary on this type of person's. Could they do they
necessarily want to halt the vision, or do they
is this a plea sometimes, you know, to be
able to contribute to it? You know? Like, I'm gonna let me
attack that piece because I have something different that I
(19:32):
think would work better in there. So I think there's a variety of
underlying motivators for the vision vulture. But
regardless, they can if if not, you know, totally squash something, they
can be great distractions. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're
right that they might have
different sets of motivations. I mean, some people could just have a critical
(19:54):
spirit. Some people could be, you
know, just not like the leader. And so they they
wanna they take every opportunity they can to just be to be
critical because they don't like that person. Sometimes they
really do like their preference and, you know, they really are defenders of the
status quo and they they, you know, they know they don't
(20:16):
have a theological argument. They they're not they're not opposing it in
on principle. They're just opposing it because they don't wanna see something be
different. Yeah. More on the practice, perhaps. Yeah. That's right.
So, I mean, but you can't read you can't judge someone's heart, you know?
So I don't know. And it depends. There there are a lot of different kinds
of vision vultures and what their motivations might be, but the practical
(20:38):
reality of a vision vulture is that they just they pick. Why are we doing
that? I mean, this and I think, honestly, I'd
take I'd take a vision vampire over a vision vulture every
day because at least a vision vampire has a perspective that
they're trying to defend, and you you can maybe win them over maybe.
If you, you know, if they start
(21:01):
to be coached along, so to speak, or developed or discipled
into a different and better understanding of of the
word, whereas a a vision vulture is just picking.
Well, even a vision vampire, if they were to ultimately just disagree and say, I
just disagree. Like, I can't, and I can't get past this. It'd be easier
for for that person probably to part ways and go, I think I probably just
(21:23):
need to find a different church. As much as you don't want that, that's an
easier conversation because they're going, well, we're at an impasse. Like, I
Yeah. Have this conviction, and the church is going a different way, and I just
don't agree. I wonder if they But vision vulture isn't that. They're
just they're just picking. Yeah. You know, they're like and you can never you it's
hard to say, I think this isn't the right place for you. Why? Because they
(21:45):
disagreed about, you know, the color of the carpet or what song you're
saying. That's it's that's too petty of a reason to dismiss them,
but they're way more annoying than a vampire. Yeah. Vision
vampires are probably the more likely people behind
church splits, perhaps, because they're able to make a
theological argument. And Yeah. Depending on their level
(22:08):
of of, I don't know,
leadership or, you know, influence. They might be able to
rally together. They've got a solid enough sounding argument to rally
enough people together, to to move that direction or to
even stop something. Whereas the vulture is probably
probably not a significant number of people who are gonna take their picking
(22:30):
seriously enough or find it compelling enough to wanna lock
arms with them over it. Maybe I'll defend the vampires and, you know, we're
using this in a in a derogatory way because we're assuming that your
vision is healthy and biblical. Yeah. Right?
Maybe the vampire's right. If you if you've got a vision that's unholy
Yeah. They might be right, and they may be totally justified in That
(22:53):
correct. If they have a resistance. So maybe maybe
assume we're talking about you've got a vision that is healthy and biblical, and you've
used our processes to make sure that it is you know, you're not you're not
taking the church in a direction that really is, you know, out of
step with the word. But so I'll defend I'll defend maybe some
vampires. Depending on the person listening, they might they might think they got a vampire,
(23:15):
but that person might be right. Well, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And there's there's no
too specific. But if you're if you're taking if you're leading your church off the
rails Yeah. Getting away from biblical truth,
you know, the authority of scripture, they're right, and you should listen
to it. If you are that type of visionary leader
and you have made sure that there's not
(23:37):
a close circle of accountability around you, there's
a chance you might need a vampire in your life to derail you. Yeah.
Yeah. But but we're we're making an assumption here in this episode
that that the plans you have are in alignment with, you
know, God's word and his authority. But Okay. Alright.
Well, hit us with our our third, blocker. Our third
(23:59):
one, I I think this is an interest you know, A.J. was hoping that Aubrey
would have come up with another v. Oh. But this is, these are vision
firemen. And I think that this is an interesting one. So hear me out because
I think it requires a little bit of explanation. Aubrey defines a vision
fireman as a person
who essentially exists to prevent
(24:21):
fires from from starting and spreading.
But when you're talking about doing something new and doing something
visionary, it often requires a little bit of
destruction in order for there to be some construction. You know, you have
to maybe clear some dead wood out. You have to, you
know, get rid of kill off some old practices or,
(24:43):
you know, sunset some ministries that aren't effective anymore.
And so you have there has to almost be a a bit of a controlled
burn, to certain aspects of the ministry in order for
there to be healthy growth in the future. And vision firemen are
the kinds of people who they're not gonna
start the fire, and they're not going to want to stick
(25:05):
around and see the fire happen. They wanna put it out.
Yeah. So they are they are the guardians of the gate. They are the
defenders of the status quo. Preservationists. They're preservationists.
They'll say, look. You know, first Corinthians fourteen forty says, let all
things be done decently and in order. And so when they see when
they see anything that they perceive as chaos and and change is
(25:28):
often a little bit chaotic on the front end when you don't have that certainty
and of practice and so on. They just don't like
that. They just don't like the change, and they are afraid of
the chaos that that might sow. So it isn't that they have a
it isn't that they have a principled objection to the change. It isn't that
they are merely being critical. They see
(25:50):
themselves as preventers of chaos and preserve preservers of
order. And so these these are these are people who are like
seas on the, on the disc. They're very conscientious
and, you know, they, they wanna see the timeline and the process and the budget.
And they're just very concerned that people might be upset or it might,
(26:11):
you know, turn things over a little bit. So, these are okay, folks.
I think that, these are all malicious intent. Probably not
malicious intent. But these are the people that you actually
need to win over because they are ordered, because they
are organized, because they're typically good managers. You want to
win over those stakeholders because they can be advocates for you if
(26:34):
they understand it. And they might be able to help
actually execute a vision effectively. Yeah. So these are managers. They
are usually leaders, but they're they don't have a leadership skill. They have more of
a manager type skill. So you you wanna win these folks over
early. Know who they are and win them over so they can help you
rather than stand in your way and be preventing you from moving forward in
(26:56):
the vision. Yeah. Yep. For sure. So I think some of the key takeaways here
is, you know, have an understanding of these types of opposition
that you'll run into, and then kinda be prepared for it.
Anticipate it, so that when it happens, you
can go, I I kinda thought that. And and, you know, if you've been at
your church for a while, maybe speaking to you pastor, you're gonna
(27:18):
know already a lot of these potential,
blockers. And so, you know, considering these things
ahead of time is gonna give you a more measured response,
thoughtful, prayerful response to that. But the
last, you know, the last piece kind of in responding to this also that's
maybe most important, again, assuming you you're a healthy
(27:41):
leader, you have a healthy vision, is resilience, that
you work through it, you know, systematically, methodically with
with the opposition and and stay strong
in presenting and working towards division.
Also assuming that you do have, you know, a pretty good majority. You know? I
mean, most of the people are like, yeah. We like this.
(28:04):
And this is an area of church revitalization that is a
common failure point, is the lack of resilience
and the the falling back, turning back towards, you
know, the old ways in the face of opposition. So it's a really important
aspect of revitalization. Yeah. I I wanna,
maybe wrap up by just encouraging you this way and and encouraging
(28:26):
you the way that that,
how Nehemiah dealt with it. And, and and
Aubrey kind of echoes this a little bit in in the book in chapter eight.
But he talks about remembering God's past,
present, and future goodness, his provision, his presence
and his provision. And this is what Nehemiah does. So when
(28:48):
Nehemiah goes to the people, he says, you see the trouble we're
in, and God has
provided for us. God has his hand is on us. Therefore,
we need to strengthen our hands to do the good work. And
then and then the inevitable thing happens literally in the
next verse is that he starts to get this criticism
(29:10):
from from a Sanballat the Horonite to buy the
Ammonite official and Geshem the Arab. So these are this is external
opposition, but opposition nonetheless. They
accuse him. They stand, and they're accusing his,
motivations and after and so on. Make some accusations.
And then I love his response. This is why I wanted to end with this,
(29:32):
A.J., because the boldness and the clarity of this statement,
Nehemiah says, the god of heaven will give us success. We, his
servants, will start rebuilding. But as for you, you have
no share in Jerusalem or any claim or historic right
to it. He just shuts it down. He says, god
will give us success. So he's already from the beginning. It's not about us. It's
(29:55):
not about our skills. It's not about what we have. You know, their
accusation against him is that there is a political
one. You know, you're are you opposing the king? And
and immediately, he doesn't address that. He go he appeals straight to the
lord and says, no. The lord is his hand is on us.
He's providing for us. His presence is here. His power is here. His provision
(30:18):
is here. And then he says what we're going to do.
We, his servants, will start rebuilding. Not, you
know, well, we're still evaluating things. Don't don't feel like you need to
equivocate. Don't feel like, well, I gotta give it to them.
You don't. You can say we are moving forward in this vision.
Yeah. And then to those who who not to the
(30:41):
people who just need some convincing, but to the people who truly stand opposed to
you in an unholy way, you can say you have no
share in this vision. And Who? Mean Yeah. And it
and it works, and it's bold, and it's difficult, but
you have to hang tough. Don't don't capitulate. Don't
give in. Hang tough. That also reminds me of, is it Isaiah
(31:03):
43? See, I'm doing a new thing? Isn't that where that is?
Is it, yeah, 42 or 43 somewhere? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's there's
a remembrance. You know? Remember who I am. Remember what I've done for you,
And then forget the former thing. See, I'm doing a new thing. Do you not
perceive it? Kinda parallels that as well that,
yeah, there's a there's a vision. Good stuff, man.
(31:25):
Yeah. If you're feeling this in your church, you know, as a leader, you're like,
here's just this is not where we're supposed to be. I I really feel like
God's calling us to more than, we would love to hear from you and talk
with you about that and, work with you to to forge a path
forward in that. This is this is what we do all day every day. We
love seeing that. So definitely, reach out to us. Just go to
(31:47):
malpersgroup.com. You can contact us there on the website.
Yep. Yeah. And today's article is gonna be in the link below,
in your podcast app or on YouTube if you're watching over there. So
click over there. Read today's, show notes, and,
yeah. And, again, reach out to us, because we'd love to talk with you
about any, any seeds of vision that are that are,
(32:10):
starting to pop up there in your ministry.
Yeah. While you're over there, hey. We didn't I don't know if we even mentioned
it, but sign up for the toolkit. Tool it's a great resource for your church,
and, and there's some amazing tools in there that can,
help you save time, can bring people together to to
grow together. So check out check out the toolkit while
(32:31):
you're there. There's a button there's an obvious button. You'll see it. You'll see it.
Thanks for being with us. We will, see you again next week on the Church
Revitalization podcast.
Who is blocking your ministry vision? We're
talking about a few different options today on the Church Revitalization
Podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Church
Revitalization Podcast brought to you by the Malphurs Group
team, where each week we tackle important, actionable
topics to help churches thrive. And now, here's your
(00:22):
hosts, Scott Ball and A.J. Mathieu.
Welcome to the Church Revitalization podcast. My name is Scott Ball. I'm joined by my
friend and cohost A.J. Mathieu. Round of
applause. We'll put that in later. Yeah.
We won't. But, but hopefully, you as you're
(00:43):
driving or you're listening, you're sitting there at your computer. Just give a
little clap for my friend, A.J.. Alright. Today, we're talking
about who's blocking your ministry vision.
And, I guess from the very top, let me give let me
give props to the founder of our organization,
doctor Aubrey Balfour. He's with the lord now, but, he
(01:06):
first wrote this book, Developing a Vision for Ministry, all the way
back in 1992, if you can believe it. And then it went through
three editions. So this this latest version, I think, came out in what
was it, A.J.? Twenty Twenty fifteen. Twenty fifteen. So so I mean,
that's got ten years on it, but it's a great it's a great,
read. It holds up really well. And, the inspiration
(01:29):
for today's article and podcast,
episode comes from chapter eight, the the final
chapter, which is about preserving the vision. This is this is
a, this is a challenge,
in the in the church when you I think we think that
we do all this hard work. We put the team together.
(01:52):
We have the meetings. We get everything kind of
arranged and written up, and we start presenting it. And there's
maybe even some initial excitement about the future of the
church and where things are going. And then some people start
trying to to block the vision, and you can start to get
discouraged. And so today, we're gonna be walking through the
(02:14):
three kind of arc archetypes of
people who are likely going to be in the way.
But maybe before we dive into that, A.J., I think maybe let's take a
step back for a second and look at a biblical example of this. We see
this in scripture. And when there's a vision presented, sometimes there's some
resistance. Yeah. For sure. This is a well, it's a book near and dear
(02:37):
to your heart, I know, Scott. The book of Nehemiah, and it's been brought up
on the podcast numerous times, but for good reason. I think there's so many great
parallels, you know, between church revitalization and the work
of, you know, of rebuilding Jerusalem, the walls and and the city and the people
and, you
Aubrey hearkens back also to Nehemiah in this in that,
(03:00):
you know, he comes he comes back on the scene, returns to Jerusalem, you know,
with this vision, to rebuild the walls
and is met with opposition,
both internally and externally, meaning the, you
know, the the remnant there of of the Israelites,
the the Jews, and the people outside, you know, the
(03:22):
beyond Jerusalem that didn't wanna see those walls get built either.
You know, I don't know. Scott, you think the
internal opposition came as a surprise to Nehemiah? Was he did he
figure I'm I'm marching in? I got, I got the power of the king
behind me. Everybody's gonna welcome me with open arms, and this is just
gonna go swimmingly, or do you think he
(03:44):
anticipated, internal opposition? You know,
I don't know. I can't I have no idea what he was thinking necessarily, but,
you need you have to remember for Nehemiah that the problem that
he's seeking to resolve is a problem that had existed
for a hundred years. Yeah. And you
(04:06):
don't one does not resolve an
entrenched hundred year problem
in as few days as he does without
encountering resistance. Because whenever you have a problem like that,
then there's probably an entrenched bureaucracy. There's a reason
why the problem hasn't been solved. That's a great point.
(04:29):
And the problem is is usually people,
and not and not the the problem itself. Yeah. Man, you
know what? Okay. This is a great point because it's it is
with frequency. We get a call from a pastor, maybe
some other leader in the church. We have a conversation about what are the options
for revitalization. Give give them some good information.
(04:51):
They take it back to, you know, a meeting or a series of meetings, and
then the conclusion becomes, we think we can do this ourselves.
And, you have to ask, and you and I
offline ask each other this whenever we come across this. If you think you can
do it now, how come you haven't done it prior to now? And there that's
me and my situation. We got a hundred years of the walls,
(05:13):
being down, and there's a reason. And it's because there
was people there that didn't want to or had other excuses for it
just like commonly in the church. And even some legitimate reasons,
like, I mean, the political you know, when they're when they're under
Babylon Yeah. You know, then well, first of all,
when they're under Babylon, basically, no one is living there at at that
(05:36):
point, anyway, who who is Jewish.
It's only when when Persia allows them to start coming back
that they start coming back. So I guess to be to be
generous, this is a problem that they had the potential of solving for maybe
only thirty years or something like that. So it's but it's
still a decades long problem at this point. Yeah. It could have been
(05:58):
resolved. They've they've started rebuilding the temple and so on. So, I
mean, they've it isn't like they hadn't done anything, but the walls
themselves are are in ruins. And and, yeah, you're
right that you have Nehemiah who is he's he's an outsider in that
he's never lived in Jerusalem, but he's an insider in that he
is is part of the the family, so to speak, as as a
(06:20):
Jew. Yeah. And so he's like, it's it's this it's time. It's
time to solve this problem. You know, we don't need
to we don't need to get into all this. You know, a lot of the
people a lot of the criticism that he's getting is that people were accusing
him of self dealing. Well, you're just in this for you.
And he's, and he's like, wait, what? You know, far
(06:42):
be it. Like, that's not, I'm not in this for, I'm not in this for
me. You know? And in fact, he,
the the allowance that he was supposed to be getting as the governor, he uses
to to feed the people, and his assistance and so on. Like,
he's he's not making he's not making money,
doing this. And so common argument even in modern political
(07:04):
landscapes that, you're saying you're here to do something for us,
but we think you really are just doing this for yourself. Doing this for yourself.
Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, to be fair, we we I I
don't know that people say this directly to our faces, but I think one of
the challenges in the kind of work that we do, especially since, you know, we
we have things like the Healthy Church Toolkit, and there's fees associated with
(07:25):
registering for that if you you're if you're inside North America, you know, or the
work that we do in consulting with churches, there's fees associated with that.
People don't have to shop too much to realize that our fees are as as
low as anybody's that you would encounter except maybe a denomination that's offering
something for free. We can't do things entirely for free.
(07:45):
But, you know, you get accused of, well, you're just trying to make you're just
trying to make a buck. And that isn't we we wanna feed
our families. You know, we have an obligation to our families. Yeah. That isn't
our motivation. The we do things all the time for people
for at for at no cost and or no. We're not bragging about that. We're
just I'm just saying, you know, these kinds of things can cut
(08:06):
deep. I can I can I can, I'm not comparing myself to Nehemiah?
He's he's a leader I look up to immensely. But I can relate
a little bit in going, well, hold on a minute. That those kinds of accusations
hurt when you when you hear someone say, you're just doing this for the money
because you go home. Well, no. I wanted to go make money. There would be
better ways to make money. Yeah. That's that's not that isn't a
(08:28):
motivation for us. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah. There's a
there's a lot of things in in the church in which people get
paid to do them. And so if if that's your position, anybody doing
anything in the church is only doing it for the money, then I don't know.
See how many pastors we have if they're not compensated, see how
many, you know, other leaders we have. We have to go down that path. Was
(08:49):
just saying, like, I I mean, but it's it's related in the sense
that, yeah, I mean, I guess we're kinda
getting to the heart of the matter. We're we're gonna get into these archetypes because
that's the the heart of this, episode. But, you
know, I think that this is the this is the challenge, actually. We we're touching
on even in our own little corner of of this
(09:10):
is that when people come and attack, you it's easy to
feel defensive and go, well, hold on. And that's not, you're
attacking my motivations, and you don't know what my motivations are.
Yeah. I can say it. I can say that's not that's not my motivation, but
you could go, well, then well, then why do you charge money for anything at
all? I go, well, because, you know, I don't know. I got I got a
(09:30):
I got a mortgage payment. That's that's why.
Yeah. Like like, my
my my bank doesn't take hopes and dreams and aspirations as a form of
payment, and good intentions.
So, that doesn't make me motivated by money. Anyways,
I I think that but and and extrapolate that out. So whatever when we
(09:52):
when you talk about division in your church, you wanna change something, you wanna do
something different. God's given a bold vision for the future of your church, and someone
says something about you that hurts you. Well, you know, they accuse
your theological positions or they accuse you just wanna become a
celebrity pastor or, you know, this is all about your ego or you're a
narcissist or whatever it might be. It's easy to go, well,
(10:14):
hold on a minute. You don't that's not that's not my motivation. That's not why
I'm doing this. I'm not doing this so that we become the coolest church in
town. I'm doing this so that we can reach the lost. Like, it's, you know,
it's easy to get caught in that trap of feeling defensive about what
your motivations are. And and Nehemiah does this. That's why
the book actually is I'm sorry. I'm getting sidetracked on this. But the book's a
(10:36):
prayer. You know, it's a prayer journal. Nehemiah's like,
search my heart, Lord. He he's he's it's an invitation. Lord, if
there's if you see any imputable offense,
please show me. You know, reveal to me any motive I
might have that's impure. Yeah. Anyway so I
think one more, excuse me, one more setup, before
(10:59):
we jump into these three archetypes that that Aubrey had in there that I
think is just really important to keep in mind as well in the external
versus internal opposition. External opposition
to our vision is often a motivator. You know? Like Mhmm.
People on the outside going, ah, that's crazy. You know, that
sometimes with that that particular visionary leader and the
(11:20):
people that are in support of that vision are like, well, we'll show them, you
know, when we we unify, we get to work, we work hard, you
know, to prove them wrong. It's a it can be a motivator. Whereas the
internal opposition can have a much more damaging effect.
It well, it almost always has a more damaging effect. Because
now you might be getting people that are opposing you that you thought were
(11:43):
close to you. You know? I mean, something you're excited about. Hey. I've got this
great thing. I think the Lord's wanting to do it. And you expect
from them also excitement and motivation, and instead you
get opposition. That can really cut deep.
And, and I you know, we experience this in various parts of life
even. You know? I mean, with our family, with our friends, you know, you you,
(12:05):
when you have an expectation for something and it turns out to not be that
way, you're like, oh my gosh. That's it's demotivating.
Yes. And so I think these are really important things to keep
in mind as we, you know, especially for you listening, you're thinking
about, you know, maybe trying to present vision to your church and and work on
a revitalization effort. It's it's just good to have these
(12:28):
things in mind and be prepared, and perhaps
even be able to understand the people around you that you're gonna need to
be a part of it prior to this. You know?
I think because then you can manage maybe expectations properly and,
and even strategies going forward. So with that, Scott,
let's jump into our three, kind of, archetypes for
(12:51):
vision blockers. Yeah. Okay. So our first
one is a vision vampire. Let me just
pause briefly and say these terms came from Aubrey, and I love
them. I love I love them, and it makes me miss them. I'm like, this
is It is good stuff. Classic classic Aubrey Malthers,
and, yeah, we miss you. So,
(13:13):
vision vampires vision vampires, consciously or unconsciously,
they drain the light. They're just sucking the blood out of a new
vision. They hear something new that the
church wants to do, a different direction, a fresh direction, and they
can't wait to sink their teeth into it and just suck it dry.
Usually, a vision vampire, though, has
(13:35):
some sort of principled motivation. They
see the vision as an attack on something
fundamental to the existence of the church. And I think the the point that's
worth remembering here is that vision vampires
are are often well intentioned in that
they they see themselves as defenders of the faith, and they don't
(13:57):
have a clear understanding on the difference between something that
is essential and something that is pref preferential, just their
preferences versus something that's, you know,
truly rooted in scripture. So maybe it would be best to think of an
example. This is a common one that I see pop up in lots of
churches, and that would be moving to two services. So if a
(14:19):
church is growing and they're like, we need to go to two services to
accommodate the space, It does not take long for a vision vampire to to
crop up. Sometimes they're even on staff or they're on the board, and they
go, we can't do that. We can't do that because if we do that, we're
not one church anymore. We're actually two churches, and they have this
fundamental belief that it's not possible to
(14:40):
have a healthy church that has two services, that it will
somehow break the fellowship or cause disunity. And I often point out
that if you get in a big enough room, you don't know everybody in there
anyway. I mean, that's usually the argument. Right, A.J.? That,
well, you know, everyone won't know everybody. Everybody already
doesn't know everybody. So what's what's the difference?
(15:02):
But, you know, they they think that they're fighting for
something biblical, not just it's their preference.
Yeah. Yeah. I had that. You just reminded me. I've mentioned this on the
podcast before. I had, I think he was an elder in a church,
but definitely a high level leader who really wanted the
pastor to know, everybody by
(15:24):
name and face. I mean, just to memorize the congregation.
And, and I think that's kind of what you're what you're thinking. You know? And
I think for him, that was like, this is our chief shepherd,
and he has to know the sheep. And, and if he doesn't,
then he's not able to do, you know, this foundational
function of the ministry. So I think, again, it was it was
(15:47):
a well intentioned, though not well thought out, you know, opposition, I
believe, you know, when faced with the question
of what would that number be then, how many do you think is reasonable for
somebody to memorize, you know, there was no he had no clear
answer for that. But, but I think that's kind of along the same lines,
as what you're speaking of. Yeah. Absolutely. So, you
(16:09):
know, I think, that's that's definitely the first one is
this vision vampire, and and the the hallmark
of these are people who believe that they're fighting for something
fundamental, and that's why they view it as as a
compulsion. They they have to kill this thing,
because if they don't, then they're not standing up to it. So the solution to
(16:30):
this obviously is maybe addressing their core concern Yeah. Yeah.
Pastorally and go, hey. I think that we might
be coming at this from different perspectives. You know, we're moving to two
services because we don't we don't think it'd be a good
good stewardship for us to build a new, you know,
sanctuary that can seat all of us. We don't think it would be honoring to
(16:53):
the Lord to put an artificial cap on the number
of people that we can should reach. And
we're not in a position to plant a church tomorrow.
And so in this season, as the Lord is blessing us,
the solution that we've seen to be able to accommodate the growth
and to continue to reaching people with the good news, because two thirds of the
(17:15):
people in our community are perishing without the Lord, is for us to add
additional service so that more people can grow in the gospel.
Now what questions do you have about that, or what concerns do you have about
that, and how can we address them? And, you know, they go, well, I just
don't think it'll be the same. I just don't think that we're gonna you know?
Then deal with that and go, well, it sounds like you're having a nostalgia feeling
as to you know, versus what's your theological arm argument,
(17:39):
and what is your solution? What would you see the church do? How would you
address this challenge? And let them talk it through, and they may eventually come around
to it. But you you need don't just argue with them, present the
case. And if you've got someone who's totally intransigent,
you gotta you gotta hang in there. You can't just go, okay. Alright. Yeah.
I mean, and just fold. You can't you can't
(18:01):
let go of the vision because there's some criticism. So Yeah.
You gotta hang tough. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So our second,
vision blocker is, another good double v
word here, vision vulture. So we had vision vampires sucking
the lifeblood out. Now we've got vision vultures. And what is, what's
the MO of the vulture? Well, it's to, it's to find
(18:24):
something available and pick it apart, just
dig in there and and see what you can what you can get out of
it. And I think that's another really good good example here of
people that we encounter in the church that they hear of the vision,
and their first inclination is just to get into, maybe
even at that level, even some unnecessary details, but just bring it
(18:47):
up. Well, what would not work about that? What's wrong with that? What
are the the small things that would go against what we normally
do? And, I mean, this is one
for sure we can all imagine somebody in our mind that,
that we work with or are a part of our church that,
that are just picking at everything. I don't know what their, you
(19:10):
know, their main motivator is. I think that
would vary on this type of person's. Could they do they
necessarily want to halt the vision, or do they
is this a plea sometimes, you know, to be
able to contribute to it? You know? Like, I'm gonna let me
attack that piece because I have something different that I
(19:32):
think would work better in there. So I think there's a variety of
underlying motivators for the vision vulture. But
regardless, they can if if not, you know, totally squash something, they
can be great distractions. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're
right that they might have
different sets of motivations. I mean, some people could just have a critical
(19:54):
spirit. Some people could be, you
know, just not like the leader. And so they they
wanna they take every opportunity they can to just be to be
critical because they don't like that person. Sometimes they
really do like their preference and, you know, they really are defenders of the
status quo and they they, you know, they know they don't
(20:16):
have a theological argument. They they're not they're not opposing it in
on principle. They're just opposing it because they don't wanna see something be
different. Yeah. More on the practice, perhaps. Yeah. That's right.
So, I mean, but you can't read you can't judge someone's heart, you know?
So I don't know. And it depends. There there are a lot of different kinds
of vision vultures and what their motivations might be, but the practical
(20:38):
reality of a vision vulture is that they just they pick. Why are we doing
that? I mean, this and I think, honestly, I'd
take I'd take a vision vampire over a vision vulture every
day because at least a vision vampire has a perspective that
they're trying to defend, and you you can maybe win them over maybe.
If you, you know, if they start
(21:01):
to be coached along, so to speak, or developed or discipled
into a different and better understanding of of the
word, whereas a a vision vulture is just picking.
Well, even a vision vampire, if they were to ultimately just disagree and say, I
just disagree. Like, I can't, and I can't get past this. It'd be easier
for for that person probably to part ways and go, I think I probably just
(21:23):
need to find a different church. As much as you don't want that, that's an
easier conversation because they're going, well, we're at an impasse. Like, I
Yeah. Have this conviction, and the church is going a different way, and I just
don't agree. I wonder if they But vision vulture isn't that. They're
just they're just picking. Yeah. You know, they're like and you can never you it's
hard to say, I think this isn't the right place for you. Why? Because they
(21:45):
disagreed about, you know, the color of the carpet or what song you're
saying. That's it's that's too petty of a reason to dismiss them,
but they're way more annoying than a vampire. Yeah. Vision
vampires are probably the more likely people behind
church splits, perhaps, because they're able to make a
theological argument. And Yeah. Depending on their level
(22:08):
of of, I don't know,
leadership or, you know, influence. They might be able to
rally together. They've got a solid enough sounding argument to rally
enough people together, to to move that direction or to
even stop something. Whereas the vulture is probably
probably not a significant number of people who are gonna take their picking
(22:30):
seriously enough or find it compelling enough to wanna lock
arms with them over it. Maybe I'll defend the vampires and, you know, we're
using this in a in a derogatory way because we're assuming that your
vision is healthy and biblical. Yeah. Right?
Maybe the vampire's right. If you if you've got a vision that's unholy
Yeah. They might be right, and they may be totally justified in That
(22:53):
correct. If they have a resistance. So maybe maybe
assume we're talking about you've got a vision that is healthy and biblical, and you've
used our processes to make sure that it is you know, you're not you're not
taking the church in a direction that really is, you know, out of
step with the word. But so I'll defend I'll defend maybe some
vampires. Depending on the person listening, they might they might think they got a vampire,
(23:15):
but that person might be right. Well, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And there's there's no
too specific. But if you're if you're taking if you're leading your church off the
rails Yeah. Getting away from biblical truth,
you know, the authority of scripture, they're right, and you should listen
to it. If you are that type of visionary leader
and you have made sure that there's not
(23:37):
a close circle of accountability around you, there's
a chance you might need a vampire in your life to derail you. Yeah.
Yeah. But but we're we're making an assumption here in this episode
that that the plans you have are in alignment with, you
know, God's word and his authority. But Okay. Alright.
Well, hit us with our our third, blocker. Our third
(23:59):
one, I I think this is an interest you know, A.J. was hoping that Aubrey
would have come up with another v. Oh. But this is, these are vision
firemen. And I think that this is an interesting one. So hear me out because
I think it requires a little bit of explanation. Aubrey defines a vision
fireman as a person
who essentially exists to prevent
(24:21):
fires from from starting and spreading.
But when you're talking about doing something new and doing something
visionary, it often requires a little bit of
destruction in order for there to be some construction. You know, you have
to maybe clear some dead wood out. You have to, you
know, get rid of kill off some old practices or,
(24:43):
you know, sunset some ministries that aren't effective anymore.
And so you have there has to almost be a a bit of a controlled
burn, to certain aspects of the ministry in order for
there to be healthy growth in the future. And vision firemen are
the kinds of people who they're not gonna
start the fire, and they're not going to want to stick
(25:05):
around and see the fire happen. They wanna put it out.
Yeah. So they are they are the guardians of the gate. They are the
defenders of the status quo. Preservationists. They're preservationists.
They'll say, look. You know, first Corinthians fourteen forty says, let all
things be done decently and in order. And so when they see when
they see anything that they perceive as chaos and and change is
(25:28):
often a little bit chaotic on the front end when you don't have that certainty
and of practice and so on. They just don't like
that. They just don't like the change, and they are afraid of
the chaos that that might sow. So it isn't that they have a
it isn't that they have a principled objection to the change. It isn't that
they are merely being critical. They see
(25:50):
themselves as preventers of chaos and preserve preservers of
order. And so these these are these are people who are like
seas on the, on the disc. They're very conscientious
and, you know, they, they wanna see the timeline and the process and the budget.
And they're just very concerned that people might be upset or it might,
(26:11):
you know, turn things over a little bit. So, these are okay, folks.
I think that, these are all malicious intent. Probably not
malicious intent. But these are the people that you actually
need to win over because they are ordered, because they
are organized, because they're typically good managers. You want to
win over those stakeholders because they can be advocates for you if
(26:34):
they understand it. And they might be able to help
actually execute a vision effectively. Yeah. So these are managers. They
are usually leaders, but they're they don't have a leadership skill. They have more of
a manager type skill. So you you wanna win these folks over
early. Know who they are and win them over so they can help you
rather than stand in your way and be preventing you from moving forward in
(26:56):
the vision. Yeah. Yep. For sure. So I think some of the key takeaways here
is, you know, have an understanding of these types of opposition
that you'll run into, and then kinda be prepared for it.
Anticipate it, so that when it happens, you
can go, I I kinda thought that. And and, you know, if you've been at
your church for a while, maybe speaking to you pastor, you're gonna
(27:18):
know already a lot of these potential,
blockers. And so, you know, considering these things
ahead of time is gonna give you a more measured response,
thoughtful, prayerful response to that. But the
last, you know, the last piece kind of in responding to this also that's
maybe most important, again, assuming you you're a healthy
(27:41):
leader, you have a healthy vision, is resilience, that
you work through it, you know, systematically, methodically with
with the opposition and and stay strong
in presenting and working towards division.
Also assuming that you do have, you know, a pretty good majority. You know? I
mean, most of the people are like, yeah. We like this.
(28:04):
And this is an area of church revitalization that is a
common failure point, is the lack of resilience
and the the falling back, turning back towards, you
know, the old ways in the face of opposition. So it's a really important
aspect of revitalization. Yeah. I I wanna,
maybe wrap up by just encouraging you this way and and encouraging
(28:26):
you the way that that,
how Nehemiah dealt with it. And, and and
Aubrey kind of echoes this a little bit in in the book in chapter eight.
But he talks about remembering God's past,
present, and future goodness, his provision, his presence
and his provision. And this is what Nehemiah does. So when
(28:48):
Nehemiah goes to the people, he says, you see the trouble we're
in, and God has
provided for us. God has his hand is on us. Therefore,
we need to strengthen our hands to do the good work. And
then and then the inevitable thing happens literally in the
next verse is that he starts to get this criticism
(29:10):
from from a Sanballat the Horonite to buy the
Ammonite official and Geshem the Arab. So these are this is external
opposition, but opposition nonetheless. They
accuse him. They stand, and they're accusing his,
motivations and after and so on. Make some accusations.
And then I love his response. This is why I wanted to end with this,
(29:32):
A.J., because the boldness and the clarity of this statement,
Nehemiah says, the god of heaven will give us success. We, his
servants, will start rebuilding. But as for you, you have
no share in Jerusalem or any claim or historic right
to it. He just shuts it down. He says, god
will give us success. So he's already from the beginning. It's not about us. It's
(29:55):
not about our skills. It's not about what we have. You know, their
accusation against him is that there is a political
one. You know, you're are you opposing the king? And
and immediately, he doesn't address that. He go he appeals straight to the
lord and says, no. The lord is his hand is on us.
He's providing for us. His presence is here. His power is here. His provision
(30:18):
is here. And then he says what we're going to do.
We, his servants, will start rebuilding. Not, you
know, well, we're still evaluating things. Don't don't feel like you need to
equivocate. Don't feel like, well, I gotta give it to them.
You don't. You can say we are moving forward in this vision.
Yeah. And then to those who who not to the
(30:41):
people who just need some convincing, but to the people who truly stand opposed to
you in an unholy way, you can say you have no
share in this vision. And Who? Mean Yeah. And it
and it works, and it's bold, and it's difficult, but
you have to hang tough. Don't don't capitulate. Don't
give in. Hang tough. That also reminds me of, is it Isaiah
(31:03):
43? See, I'm doing a new thing? Isn't that where that is?
Is it, yeah, 42 or 43 somewhere? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's there's
a remembrance. You know? Remember who I am. Remember what I've done for you,
And then forget the former thing. See, I'm doing a new thing. Do you not
perceive it? Kinda parallels that as well that,
yeah, there's a there's a vision. Good stuff, man.
(31:25):
Yeah. If you're feeling this in your church, you know, as a leader, you're like,
here's just this is not where we're supposed to be. I I really feel like
God's calling us to more than, we would love to hear from you and talk
with you about that and, work with you to to forge a path
forward in that. This is this is what we do all day every day. We
love seeing that. So definitely, reach out to us. Just go to
(31:47):
malpersgroup.com. You can contact us there on the website.
Yep. Yeah. And today's article is gonna be in the link below,
in your podcast app or on YouTube if you're watching over there. So
click over there. Read today's, show notes, and,
yeah. And, again, reach out to us, because we'd love to talk with you
about any, any seeds of vision that are that are,
(32:10):
starting to pop up there in your ministry.
Yeah. While you're over there, hey. We didn't I don't know if we even mentioned
it, but sign up for the toolkit. Tool it's a great resource for your church,
and, and there's some amazing tools in there that can,
help you save time, can bring people together to to
grow together. So check out check out the toolkit while
(32:31):
you're there. There's a button there's an obvious button. You'll see it. You'll see it.
Thanks for being with us. We will, see you again next week on the Church
Revitalization podcast.
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