June 3, 2025 • 28 mins
Episode #207
In this week's episode, Terri and Coach Heather Shuker cover many keys to therapeutic fasting - what it is, how to build up to it, and how to support yourself to be able to do it consistently.
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Summary Timestamps
00:00 Intro
02:02 Don't start with therapeutic fasting
03:14 The Fasting Dial
04:18 No one-size-fits-all protocol or quick fix
08:10 Changing your relationship with food
09:19 Optimise Your Weight (Fat) Loss Workshop
12:11 The importance of TRE
14:45 Stabilising behaviours
18:13 Consistency is key
20:58 The Three Amigos of fasting
26:00 Consistency as part of the therapeutic dose
26:47 Heather’s favourite analogy
Disclaimer
This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. You should always speak with your physician or other healthcare professional before doing any fasting, changing your diet, taking or adjusting any medication or supplements, or adopting any treatment for a health problem. The use of any other products or services purchased by you as a result of this podcast does not create a healthcare provider-patient relationship between you and any of the experts affiliated with this podcast. Information and statements regarding dietary supplements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I think an important starting point to
think about therapeutic fasting is,
you don't start with therapeutic fasting.
You start with the foundation.
You start with the smaller doses of
things that get you to that therapeutic
level.
(00:22):
[music].
Welcome back to another episode of the
Fasting Method Podcast.
This is Coach Terri Lance and I am joined
today with Coach Heather Shuker.
Heather, how are you today?
Doing great as usual, Terri.
How are you?
I love it. I'm good too.
Alright, Heather, I'm super excited about
this episode. I might say that often
because I get so revved up about
these topics.
(00:44):
I wanted to pick your
brain and share some thoughts about
a topic that I think is so valuable
to anyone, whether they're just getting
started in the fasting world or whether
they've been doing it for a long time.
And that is this concept that we talk about
a lot at TFM, therapeutic
fasting.
(01:05):
Because one of the, I would say,
leading questions or puzzles
that people have in front of them is what
they should do.
What protocol?
How much fasting?
How often?
How do I know how to do this?
So let's dive into this idea
of therapeutic fasting.
(01:26):
I completely agree, Terri.
It is one of those things that we sometimes
assume people know and understand
because we forget that not everybody is
mired in this as much as we are.
So I think it's always a good idea to come
to this with a fresh, beginner's mind
and look at it as we once did,
as people that were brand new to fasting
(01:46):
who were a little nervous about it who were
very excited about the possibilities
but really unsure as to how to get
started. So let's talk to them our
beginner friends who really need to be
walked through what therapeutic fasting
actually is.
I think an important starting point
to think about therapeutic fasting is
(02:07):
you don't start with therapeutic fasting.
You start with the foundation,
you start with the smaller doses of
things that get you to that therapeutic
level.
You know, if we think about some kinds
of medical treatments.
They can't put you on a really high dose
of something right away.
(02:27):
They have to titrate you up.
So, you have to introduce
the treatment at a lower dose
until your body adjusts
and knows what to do with it and responds
well. And you can check out is
this dose working yet?
Do I need more?
And then you titrate up to that higher
(02:48):
dose. It's the same thing with fasting.
A lot of people begin fasting and
they hear the big numbers.
"Do a three-day fast," "Do a
five-day fast," "Do
alternating 42-hour fasts,"
"Do 6--, and it just gets so overwhelming.
What if you could focus on
(03:08):
what's the beginning dose?
Where do I begin this treatment?
It's so funny, Terri, because you're using my
language, medical language, with titration.
I'm gonna go ahead and use yours, which is
the fasting dial.
We start with the beginning, we start
with level one.
And what that looks like is no
(03:29):
snacking, no grazing.
We love to throw the TRE.
And I have some clients calling it tre!
[laughs] But time-restricted
eating, two or three meals,
that's fasting level one!
And I do have some clients that are more
advanced that are like, "That's baby
fasting," [laughs]. It's not baby fasting.
First of all, that is a perfect
(03:51):
maintenance strategy.
So that's actually where we're all headed.
But also if you're coming to
us brand new and you're
still used to that late-morning snack,
that late-night snack, sipping
on coffee with creamer all day,
then that's where we would love for you to
get started, to rein it into fasting
(04:11):
level one, the very first notch
on that fasting dial, which is to
limit yourself to meals only.
Bingo!
So, again, lowest dose.
And I think I understand sometimes why people
are almost frustrated by that answer.
They don't want to start small.
They don't want to start building the
(04:31):
foundation.
They want the results.
They want to get there now.
And both of us have experience this.
We experience it in our community.
We experienced it with our clients.
There is no way to just get there now.
You have to build up to a therapeutic
level where you see the results.
This brings up another important topic.
(04:53):
What is the therapeutic level?
And sometimes I think people want a
roadmap. Again, if we go to medicine,
it's like, "Oh, everyone should take this
dose." Oh, wait, but this person only
weighs 120 pounds and
they-- you know, their metabolism is
very slow, they methylate slowly or whatever.
(05:14):
Hmm, what's the right dose for them?
Versus this person is 280 pounds
and their body processes things
at this speed.
Huh, should they be on the
same dose?
And will they get the same results
at the same dose?
And I think most of us can understand that
doesn't even make sense to think about it
(05:35):
that way. And yet people want
us to hand them the golden
ticket. Everyone just go do this.
Versus how do you discover
what's a therapeutic level of
fasting for you?
Where do the results happen?
Where does the healing happen in your body,
(05:55):
based on the dose,
you know, the notch on that fasting dial.
Where does your body show you
that it's working?
Terri, I'm a little blown away right now with
how perfect that analogy was.
You have perfectly summed up
what I see, which is exactly
what you said. What am I supposed to do?
(06:16):
And people that we don't know, that aren't
coaching clients, that we have no background
on, we'd have no kind of information
about them, just want an answer.
And that's just not how this works.
And if it did, I promise you,
we would give you the answer.
We're not holding back here.
The reason that we can't give one
solid answer that applies to everyone is
(06:38):
because there isn't one.
We are coming at this from so many
different angles - different ages,
different body-fat percentage, different
level of metabolic dysfunction, whether
or not you have a good, healthy,
fasting insulin, or you're pre-diabetic, or
you're type two diabetic.
There's just such an array.
And all of those pieces play together and
(06:59):
are part of how you can
figure out what the best regimen is
for you.
But I think what is something
that's transferable is what we're talking
about now, which is to start with level one
and intensify and adjust accordingly
on that fasting dial.
It is not always amping it up indefinitely.
(07:19):
Sometimes we can go too far and we have to
pull back. We have to adjust, either because
of how our body is responding,
because of our social obligations, the
stress. A myriad of things cause us
to make those adjustments, but there is
no one, set answer that applies to everyone.
And I think, a lot of times, the reason that
(07:39):
people don't like that first answer - start
with level one - like you said, they want
results yesterday.
[laughs] "I want to have dealt with this
yesterday. I didn't, I'm dealing with it
today, so I want it to go as fast as
possible." Hold on there!
A couple of things happen when you ramp up
too far, too fast.
You can burn out.
You can feel very unwell and
(08:00):
then decide fasting's not for me because I
feel so unwell.
And really, it's for everyone.
It's just a matter of making that adjustment
and figuring yourself out along the way.
Another piece is that people want to deal
with the fasting, not with the food.
And so often, the reason
people don't want to settle into
time-restricted eating is because
(08:21):
the food is hard and they found
fasting to be easier. So they want to deal
with the easier thing, even if the hard
thing is what, in the long-term,
is going to be the thing that is actually
going to be what gets them to where they
want to go, and keeps them there.
And so not wanting to do TRE
is a red flag to me, as a coach.
(08:43):
When I have clients that are like, "No, no,
no. Let's just get to fasting." Hmm.
Let's slow down a little bit.
You hired me as coach for a reason and that
is, not only to help you reach your
goals, it's to help you maintain them.
And if, along the way, you're not practicing
the food and changing from
that old way of eating that got you into
trouble in the first place into a new
(09:06):
way of eating that is sustainable and that
can maintain your weight, you're going to be
in trouble long-term, and fasting
is going to be harder, and you're going to
spin your wheels more, and you're going to be
more frustrated. [music]
[promotion] Have you ever said, "I know
exactly what I need to do to lose weight.
I just can't make myself do it.
If so, you are not alone but
(09:28):
have you considered this...
What if making yourself
do it is exactly what you need to
learn how to do?
In my experience not only as
someone who has personally lost 80 pounds,
but also as someone who coaches clients
to lose weight, that's exactly
the missing piece of the weight-loss
puzzle that is keeping people from reaching
(09:50):
their weight-loss goals.
My name is Heather Shuker.
I'm a coach with The Fasting Method.
And if you would like me to teach you
what I know about weight loss and how
to stay consistent, you're in luck.
This July 15th, I will be teaching
a weight-loss workshop, a three-day workshop.
I'm going to be covering the principles,
the pitfalls, and the protocols necessary
(10:13):
for sustainable weight loss.
I hope to see you there. [music]
I was going to just bring up that part that
you just added, so I was so glad you did.
I'm just going to piggyback on that.
So not only, as you said, are the results--
is your body not going to be able to do
the work that you are wanting it to
do (if you're not also changing your
(10:34):
relationship with food and your food
behaviors), but it's going
to make this magical thing of fasting
much harder to do, more
uncomfortable, more cravings,
more hunger to battle.
Sure, we've got some strategies to help you
manage cravings and hunger, but what
if we just don't even have to because
(10:55):
we built it up so that our
body knows how to do this.
And if we're giving it inputs
that interfere,
fasting, doing that magic thing,
is going to be so much harder.
And, again, as you highlighted, for so
many of us, that feels really defeating.
We already have a system of
(11:16):
believing that we can't do this or that we're
flawed somehow.
Other people can do it but not us.
And so if we don't work on the
relationship with food piece
fasting is a much more complicated beast
to tackle, with results that
aren't as promising as what we initially
started for.
(11:36):
So, Heather, oftentimes people in the
Community, or people come to our
Coaches Corner meetings, and
places and they wanna know, "What am I
supposed to do?" "What do you do?" "What
protocol works?" And
so some people will say, "I started
doing 18/6,
how come it's not working?" And other people
(11:58):
say, "I've lost 20 pounds,
and I'm doing this." And other
people are like, "Wait a minute." So what's
your sense of that?
Like, is level one
therapeutic for anyone?
Oh yes, level one is
absolutely therapeutic for some people
because they're willing to work on the
(12:18):
food piece.
I don't think it's possible for me to
emphasize that enough because I am
thinking of a client that I actually met with
earlier today.
She was struggling to get the fasting under
control. So we decided to table that.
Let's really focus on time-restricted
eating. Let's really focus on sticking
with meals and getting
(12:39):
rid of the refined carbohydrates,
the sugars, the grains.
Low and behold, once she made that
shift mentally (like, okay, I can table
the longer fasts for now, focus
on meals, but, more importantly,
focus on what I'm eating in those meals),
she's lost 38 pounds using time-restricted
eating. Notice I didn't say "just
(13:01):
time-restricted eating" because
she's had to do a lot of work to make those
adjustments in how she eats.
And she even asked, "Why is this working?"
And the answer is because
there are a lot of ways to get insulin
resistance to come down.
Not snacking and grazing is one of them.
So time-restricted eating is an effective way
(13:22):
to lower your insulin resistance.
And not eating a bunch of refined
carbohydrates is a way to get your
insulin resistant down.
And once we have insulin resistance more
under control, which she does, then
our body is available to tap
into body fat for fuel.
And so people ignore that step
thinking it's not going to be beneficial and
(13:44):
they want to focus on these long fasts when
really if they focused on the food, they
might make more progress than they are even
expecting, like that client.
Unfortunately though, as you and I
both know, there's also the scenario
where our insulin resistance is too far
gone, whether we're type two diabetic or
we've been obese for decades (which was,
you know, the case for me), where that wasn't
(14:06):
enough. But that isn't to say that that
isn't enough for some people, which is all
the more reason that everyone should start
there. And even if it's not going to be
enough for you, practicing it
on your eating days, during your
holidays, during vacations, what have you,
that practice is necessary as you're
advancing your therapeutic fasting so
(14:27):
that when you're done, right, when you've
reached your weight-loss goals or your blood
sugar goals, that you have practiced
maintenance that whole time and now it's
seamless. You remove the therapeutic fasting
(the more intensive fasting I'm saying),
and then that is your holding pattern in
perpetuity for the rest of your days.
I love it. I'm also thinking, as you just
(14:47):
described that, that TRE,
no snacking, no grazing, eating the
foods that work for your body, these are the
stabilizing behaviors.
Like you said, these are behaviors we're
going to use in perpetuity.
I don't care what the number on this scale
says. If I want to stay where
I want be, I have to use those strategies.
(15:09):
So let's learn them in the beginning, let's
get good at them, and
let's test them out.
How much strength do they have for
us?
I think this might also apply if I went
to see a personal trainer and they
start me off doing certain exercises with
a low number of weights,
a few pounds or kilograms.
(15:30):
I'm guessing they're checking to
see, huh, at what point
does this help Terri's body?
First of all, we can't start with the high
numbers first.
Her muscles aren't ready, her stamina isn't
ready, so let's start her on this lower dose
of how many pounds or kilograms she's
working with, and reps, and
(15:51):
then we're going to see.
If my body fat percentage starts coming
down and you can start seeing
tone in my body, do you
need to go up to a higher number
of kilograms or pounds in my hand to
do the exercise?
Probably not.
And I'm big on let's do the
least effort to
(16:14):
get the most benefits.
Now this isn't-- I'm not talking biohacking,
I'm not talking about quick fixes.
But again, if you are someone
whose body is able to release
weight doing TRE
and eating the right foods,
bravo, I love that.
(16:35):
And if your body doesn't yet
show you that this is
a therapeutic level, great.
You've now got these stabilizing
forces ready and now you
can dial up.
You can dial to doing some 24-hour
fasts.
Again, same thing.
For some people, moving up
(16:57):
to the 24.
Bingo, the results start
presenting themselves.
For others of us, the bigger results
we're looking for don't yet appear with
24s.
It almost feels like some kind of lottery.
It's like, "Okay, am I gonna be one of those
people who sees the results at 18/6?
Okay, not 18, let me see.
(17:19):
Will I be one who sees the-- okay,
not at 24." But that's what
it is to keep testing.
Build the foundation, move
to the next level when your body is ready,
and stay there for a little while to
find out are you getting the results
you want. Because I think that's another
thing that many people
(17:41):
(out of maybe excitement and
drive) bypass, is they
don't wait enough to even
see if the current dose is enough.
They just want to go for the higher dose -
more fasts, more frequent fasts,
longer hours.
Let's see what your body can show you at this
level.
(18:01):
Not yet seeing your body's full potential
to release weight?
Let's turn it up.
Let's do the next step toward
decreasing that insulin resistance.
Exactly. And I think it might be a good idea
to tell people what the next step is,
because-- and you've talked about this
before. I've heard you talk about this, where
(18:21):
we start with 16/8, 18/6,
and then people start doing weird things with
the clock. They're like, "Oh, can I make it
to 20 or 22?" And
so day by day by day, they're thinking,
"I just want to stretch the clock, stretch
the clock." And that's not what
we mean when we talk about upping the
dial and therapeutic fasting.
(18:42):
We're actually talking about adding up
to three therapeutic fasts, so three or
four. Okay, but, earlier on in
the dial, can we add three
fasting days a week in?
And a fasting day would be a one-meal day,
meaning a 24-hour fast, or a no-meal
day, meaning a 36 or a 42-hour
fast. And, in general, we
(19:04):
recommend alternating them.
And so, instead of what we think about
with 16/8 or 18/6 as something that we do
every single day, when we start
upping the dial, we want to add
those in about three days a week.
And I think that's an important distinction
to make because of how many people that
haven't made that distinction, but also
because, when we think about the
(19:26):
effectiveness and how long we want to do
this, we don't want to be necessarily
therapeutic fasting or doing something beyond
time-restricted eating indefinitely.
We want that to be kind of time-limited,
based on our goals.
Now, for some people, it's going to take
longer than others, but you
might be able to get this thing knocked out
in six to nine months if you
(19:48):
are intense about it and if you show up to
it consistently.
And so what we're really talking about that
is can you show up for three
days of fasting consistently, week
after week after a week, for six to
nine months?
Heather, I love that you really highlighted
this idea that therapeutic fasting
isn't necessarily something that you have
(20:09):
to do long term.
You have to it while you need that level
of intensity.
And then we're going to work on how do
we dial back. How do we get to
a place where we can maintain
our health and our weight goals?
But something else that you said in there
that I wanted to go back to is the idea
(20:30):
that, as you said, it's not just adding
number of hours.
Because all of a sudden, I have clients who
say, "Well, every day I'm getting to
19.
How come nothing's happening yet?" That's
not really the goal, even though that's
what it might sound like when it's like, "Go
a little longer, go a lot longer." Actually,
what we're talking about is get to
(20:51):
the point where you can stretch to that next
kind of level of intensity that
provides benefits.
So I often encourage people
to think about (again, depending on what
their needs are) at what
point in a fast do we
start to see some of the stronger
benefits of fasting?
(21:13):
So if you say, "Hey Terri, I did
18 hours three times last week.
How come I didn't lose weight?" I'm pretty
sure you and I no longer would consider
18 hours from their last meal yesterday
to their first meal today as fasting.
We would see that as good, healthy
meal timing.
That's great for us, But it doesn't
(21:35):
really get the benefits
of fasting going
if our therapeutic need is more.
So what happens as we
get to some of those higher numbers?
Not just 19 instead of
18, but 24,
36, 42.
(21:57):
And, at some point, I have talked about this
many times, so some of you may be familiar
with this, but the idea of what I call
The Three Amigos.
This is not about the movie, The Three
Amigos, but I do picture that.
I should probably create a meme about that[
laughter], but there are three
big things that I
encourage people to think about.
(22:18):
Once I get to a certain number
of hours into a fast,
my body is no longer just prepping
me and doing good things.
I suddenly have these three assistants
that are really powerful.
I have autophagy, that
self-cleaning, getting rid of the old
tissues, and things.
(22:39):
I have increased noradrenaline, so
increased fat burning, which
is, I think, what many of us want.
And I have increased human growth
hormone, which helps me--
you know, if the last one was helping me burn
body fat, this one is helping me take
those amino acids and create more
lean mass, which is metabolically
(23:01):
more efficient.
So I want to get
to a place where I can invite those three
amigos in regularly.
So moving to a 24,
for some of us then moving that to a 36
or a 42,
that starts to tell us how
long have The Three Amigos,
(23:23):
those three big benefits,
been with you during this fast.
And if, every day, I stop at 19
hours, I'm probably not
getting the benefit of those yet.
But if my therapeutic dose
doesn't require The Three Amigos to
show up, great.
(23:43):
But this is where that kind of
stretching and testing and figuring
out what is therapeutic for
me.
I love that you lay it down there.
I've heard you talk about The Three Amigos
before and I still think of it constantly,
because isn't that such a motivating idea
to have that vision in your head of these
like three gunslingers
(24:06):
[laughs] arriving to help you
with your health goals, you know, once you
hit 24.
And I think knowing that it comes at 24,
and since 24 is one of the
hardest times to fast through,
I think it really is just an extra
little push to know, okay, they just
arrived.
So if you can make it through that
(24:27):
witching hour, which is that dinner time hour
for many of us, you can have your bone
broth, you can have your fasting fluids, you
can take a walk, you can do some distraction
techniques, but if you can have
them come on in and sit down in the living
room and hang out with you overnight
into the next day, then think
about how much you're getting, and most
(24:48):
of that you're sleeping through.
You've got to make it through one tough
dinner and you get all that bonus
effect.
And I think having that idea and having that
vision can help people get past this fear
that they have of overnight fasting,
where it's like, "Oh, I just can't.
I'm okay with OMADs." It's like, well, yeah,
and you're getting right there to the edge of
(25:09):
the magic.
But, man, if you could just figure out that
witching hour, you are unleashing
so much benefit that
people like you and I, Terri, were like, when
we started talking about this today,
we were like, man, it's great for those
people that can use time-restricted eating
and get the goals, but that ain't us.
You know, you and I both required-- my
(25:29):
fasting regimen was three 42s.
And so I needed that push from
The Three Amigos in order to get to where I
wanted to go. And so many of my clients,
so many of the people that I've met are like,
"Well, I've lost a little bit with TRE,
but I'm not really getting where I wanna go."
All right, it's time to dig a little deeper.
Now that you've got that practice and that's
(25:50):
under your belt, now it's time to up
the intensity, push a little
harder, you know, now that you're ready, and
get the real magic going.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna wrap up with one more thing here,
Heather.
Consistency. It's not enough to have
The Three Amigos over once, just like
it's not enough to go to the gym and do an
(26:12):
intense workout and then wonder how come
your muscle tone hasn't changed, your
strength hasn't changed.
The consistency-- you keep saying like
three times a week for
week after week, for months in
a row. The consistency is
also part of the therapeutic dose.
Don't tell me, "I did a therapeutic fast
(26:34):
on April 3rd.
How come I didn't see the results?"
What have you done since April 3rd?
Have you continued to do
those fasts at the length
that works for your body?
That's where we see the results.
Couldn't agree more.
And since we started talking about medicine,
let's finish with medicine.
My favorite analogy, and the one that really
(26:56):
spoke to me that Megan Ramos uses,
is the idea of chemotherapy.
If you have a tough diagnosis,
it's not like you come to chemotherapy when
you feel like it, or when it's convenient,
or when you don't have a lot of social
engagements coming up.
You show up for chemotherapy.
You don't want to
(27:17):
have this thing left undealt with.
And so, even if it's uncomfortable, even if
you don't want to, even if you don't feel like
it, you get in the car and you show up for
treatment.
And I think that's the piece that people
really need to hear when it comes to
doing this work.
If you don't want this thing to drag out
indefinitely, you want to get in here,
do the hard stuff, and get it done,
(27:40):
then you need to show up consistently, just
like you're saying. I love that you don't
have The Three Amigos over once.
No, they need to be regular guests
if you want this magic to happen, folks,
regular guests.
Absolutely.
Okay, Heather, well I think we have done a
great job of summing up our passion about
this topic of therapeutic fasting.
(28:01):
I look forward to everyone applying
this to their work that they're doing.
Get consistent, start with level
one, and dial up to figure
out where does your body need you
to give it that support.
So, until we come back, I wish everyone
well. Happy fasting.
Make good choices.
(28:21):
[music]
I think an important starting point to
think about therapeutic fasting is,
you don't start with therapeutic fasting.
You start with the foundation.
You start with the smaller doses of
things that get you to that therapeutic
level.
(00:22):
[music].
Welcome back to another episode of the
Fasting Method Podcast.
This is Coach Terri Lance and I am joined
today with Coach Heather Shuker.
Heather, how are you today?
Doing great as usual, Terri.
How are you?
I love it. I'm good too.
Alright, Heather, I'm super excited about
this episode. I might say that often
because I get so revved up about
these topics.
(00:44):
I wanted to pick your
brain and share some thoughts about
a topic that I think is so valuable
to anyone, whether they're just getting
started in the fasting world or whether
they've been doing it for a long time.
And that is this concept that we talk about
a lot at TFM, therapeutic
fasting.
(01:05):
Because one of the, I would say,
leading questions or puzzles
that people have in front of them is what
they should do.
What protocol?
How much fasting?
How often?
How do I know how to do this?
So let's dive into this idea
of therapeutic fasting.
(01:26):
I completely agree, Terri.
It is one of those things that we sometimes
assume people know and understand
because we forget that not everybody is
mired in this as much as we are.
So I think it's always a good idea to come
to this with a fresh, beginner's mind
and look at it as we once did,
as people that were brand new to fasting
(01:46):
who were a little nervous about it who were
very excited about the possibilities
but really unsure as to how to get
started. So let's talk to them our
beginner friends who really need to be
walked through what therapeutic fasting
actually is.
I think an important starting point
to think about therapeutic fasting is
(02:07):
you don't start with therapeutic fasting.
You start with the foundation,
you start with the smaller doses of
things that get you to that therapeutic
level.
You know, if we think about some kinds
of medical treatments.
They can't put you on a really high dose
of something right away.
(02:27):
They have to titrate you up.
So, you have to introduce
the treatment at a lower dose
until your body adjusts
and knows what to do with it and responds
well. And you can check out is
this dose working yet?
Do I need more?
And then you titrate up to that higher
(02:48):
dose. It's the same thing with fasting.
A lot of people begin fasting and
they hear the big numbers.
"Do a three-day fast," "Do a
five-day fast," "Do
alternating 42-hour fasts,"
"Do 6--, and it just gets so overwhelming.
What if you could focus on
(03:08):
what's the beginning dose?
Where do I begin this treatment?
It's so funny, Terri, because you're using my
language, medical language, with titration.
I'm gonna go ahead and use yours, which is
the fasting dial.
We start with the beginning, we start
with level one.
And what that looks like is no
(03:29):
snacking, no grazing.
We love to throw the TRE.
And I have some clients calling it tre!
[laughs] But time-restricted
eating, two or three meals,
that's fasting level one!
And I do have some clients that are more
advanced that are like, "That's baby
fasting," [laughs]. It's not baby fasting.
First of all, that is a perfect
(03:51):
maintenance strategy.
So that's actually where we're all headed.
But also if you're coming to
us brand new and you're
still used to that late-morning snack,
that late-night snack, sipping
on coffee with creamer all day,
then that's where we would love for you to
get started, to rein it into fasting
(04:11):
level one, the very first notch
on that fasting dial, which is to
limit yourself to meals only.
Bingo!
So, again, lowest dose.
And I think I understand sometimes why people
are almost frustrated by that answer.
They don't want to start small.
They don't want to start building the
(04:31):
foundation.
They want the results.
They want to get there now.
And both of us have experience this.
We experience it in our community.
We experienced it with our clients.
There is no way to just get there now.
You have to build up to a therapeutic
level where you see the results.
This brings up another important topic.
(04:53):
What is the therapeutic level?
And sometimes I think people want a
roadmap. Again, if we go to medicine,
it's like, "Oh, everyone should take this
dose." Oh, wait, but this person only
weighs 120 pounds and
they-- you know, their metabolism is
very slow, they methylate slowly or whatever.
(05:14):
Hmm, what's the right dose for them?
Versus this person is 280 pounds
and their body processes things
at this speed.
Huh, should they be on the
same dose?
And will they get the same results
at the same dose?
And I think most of us can understand that
doesn't even make sense to think about it
(05:35):
that way. And yet people want
us to hand them the golden
ticket. Everyone just go do this.
Versus how do you discover
what's a therapeutic level of
fasting for you?
Where do the results happen?
Where does the healing happen in your body,
(05:55):
based on the dose,
you know, the notch on that fasting dial.
Where does your body show you
that it's working?
Terri, I'm a little blown away right now with
how perfect that analogy was.
You have perfectly summed up
what I see, which is exactly
what you said. What am I supposed to do?
(06:16):
And people that we don't know, that aren't
coaching clients, that we have no background
on, we'd have no kind of information
about them, just want an answer.
And that's just not how this works.
And if it did, I promise you,
we would give you the answer.
We're not holding back here.
The reason that we can't give one
solid answer that applies to everyone is
(06:38):
because there isn't one.
We are coming at this from so many
different angles - different ages,
different body-fat percentage, different
level of metabolic dysfunction, whether
or not you have a good, healthy,
fasting insulin, or you're pre-diabetic, or
you're type two diabetic.
There's just such an array.
And all of those pieces play together and
(06:59):
are part of how you can
figure out what the best regimen is
for you.
But I think what is something
that's transferable is what we're talking
about now, which is to start with level one
and intensify and adjust accordingly
on that fasting dial.
It is not always amping it up indefinitely.
(07:19):
Sometimes we can go too far and we have to
pull back. We have to adjust, either because
of how our body is responding,
because of our social obligations, the
stress. A myriad of things cause us
to make those adjustments, but there is
no one, set answer that applies to everyone.
And I think, a lot of times, the reason that
(07:39):
people don't like that first answer - start
with level one - like you said, they want
results yesterday.
[laughs] "I want to have dealt with this
yesterday. I didn't, I'm dealing with it
today, so I want it to go as fast as
possible." Hold on there!
A couple of things happen when you ramp up
too far, too fast.
You can burn out.
You can feel very unwell and
(08:00):
then decide fasting's not for me because I
feel so unwell.
And really, it's for everyone.
It's just a matter of making that adjustment
and figuring yourself out along the way.
Another piece is that people want to deal
with the fasting, not with the food.
And so often, the reason
people don't want to settle into
time-restricted eating is because
(08:21):
the food is hard and they found
fasting to be easier. So they want to deal
with the easier thing, even if the hard
thing is what, in the long-term,
is going to be the thing that is actually
going to be what gets them to where they
want to go, and keeps them there.
And so not wanting to do TRE
is a red flag to me, as a coach.
(08:43):
When I have clients that are like, "No, no,
no. Let's just get to fasting." Hmm.
Let's slow down a little bit.
You hired me as coach for a reason and that
is, not only to help you reach your
goals, it's to help you maintain them.
And if, along the way, you're not practicing
the food and changing from
that old way of eating that got you into
trouble in the first place into a new
(09:06):
way of eating that is sustainable and that
can maintain your weight, you're going to be
in trouble long-term, and fasting
is going to be harder, and you're going to
spin your wheels more, and you're going to be
more frustrated. [music]
[promotion] Have you ever said, "I know
exactly what I need to do to lose weight.
I just can't make myself do it.
If so, you are not alone but
(09:28):
have you considered this...
What if making yourself
do it is exactly what you need to
learn how to do?
In my experience not only as
someone who has personally lost 80 pounds,
but also as someone who coaches clients
to lose weight, that's exactly
the missing piece of the weight-loss
puzzle that is keeping people from reaching
(09:50):
their weight-loss goals.
My name is Heather Shuker.
I'm a coach with The Fasting Method.
And if you would like me to teach you
what I know about weight loss and how
to stay consistent, you're in luck.
This July 15th, I will be teaching
a weight-loss workshop, a three-day workshop.
I'm going to be covering the principles,
the pitfalls, and the protocols necessary
(10:13):
for sustainable weight loss.
I hope to see you there. [music]
I was going to just bring up that part that
you just added, so I was so glad you did.
I'm just going to piggyback on that.
So not only, as you said, are the results--
is your body not going to be able to do
the work that you are wanting it to
do (if you're not also changing your
(10:34):
relationship with food and your food
behaviors), but it's going
to make this magical thing of fasting
much harder to do, more
uncomfortable, more cravings,
more hunger to battle.
Sure, we've got some strategies to help you
manage cravings and hunger, but what
if we just don't even have to because
(10:55):
we built it up so that our
body knows how to do this.
And if we're giving it inputs
that interfere,
fasting, doing that magic thing,
is going to be so much harder.
And, again, as you highlighted, for so
many of us, that feels really defeating.
We already have a system of
(11:16):
believing that we can't do this or that we're
flawed somehow.
Other people can do it but not us.
And so if we don't work on the
relationship with food piece
fasting is a much more complicated beast
to tackle, with results that
aren't as promising as what we initially
started for.
(11:36):
So, Heather, oftentimes people in the
Community, or people come to our
Coaches Corner meetings, and
places and they wanna know, "What am I
supposed to do?" "What do you do?" "What
protocol works?" And
so some people will say, "I started
doing 18/6,
how come it's not working?" And other people
(11:58):
say, "I've lost 20 pounds,
and I'm doing this." And other
people are like, "Wait a minute." So what's
your sense of that?
Like, is level one
therapeutic for anyone?
Oh yes, level one is
absolutely therapeutic for some people
because they're willing to work on the
(12:18):
food piece.
I don't think it's possible for me to
emphasize that enough because I am
thinking of a client that I actually met with
earlier today.
She was struggling to get the fasting under
control. So we decided to table that.
Let's really focus on time-restricted
eating. Let's really focus on sticking
with meals and getting
(12:39):
rid of the refined carbohydrates,
the sugars, the grains.
Low and behold, once she made that
shift mentally (like, okay, I can table
the longer fasts for now, focus
on meals, but, more importantly,
focus on what I'm eating in those meals),
she's lost 38 pounds using time-restricted
eating. Notice I didn't say "just
(13:01):
time-restricted eating" because
she's had to do a lot of work to make those
adjustments in how she eats.
And she even asked, "Why is this working?"
And the answer is because
there are a lot of ways to get insulin
resistance to come down.
Not snacking and grazing is one of them.
So time-restricted eating is an effective way
(13:22):
to lower your insulin resistance.
And not eating a bunch of refined
carbohydrates is a way to get your
insulin resistant down.
And once we have insulin resistance more
under control, which she does, then
our body is available to tap
into body fat for fuel.
And so people ignore that step
thinking it's not going to be beneficial and
(13:44):
they want to focus on these long fasts when
really if they focused on the food, they
might make more progress than they are even
expecting, like that client.
Unfortunately though, as you and I
both know, there's also the scenario
where our insulin resistance is too far
gone, whether we're type two diabetic or
we've been obese for decades (which was,
you know, the case for me), where that wasn't
(14:06):
enough. But that isn't to say that that
isn't enough for some people, which is all
the more reason that everyone should start
there. And even if it's not going to be
enough for you, practicing it
on your eating days, during your
holidays, during vacations, what have you,
that practice is necessary as you're
advancing your therapeutic fasting so
(14:27):
that when you're done, right, when you've
reached your weight-loss goals or your blood
sugar goals, that you have practiced
maintenance that whole time and now it's
seamless. You remove the therapeutic fasting
(the more intensive fasting I'm saying),
and then that is your holding pattern in
perpetuity for the rest of your days.
I love it. I'm also thinking, as you just
(14:47):
described that, that TRE,
no snacking, no grazing, eating the
foods that work for your body, these are the
stabilizing behaviors.
Like you said, these are behaviors we're
going to use in perpetuity.
I don't care what the number on this scale
says. If I want to stay where
I want be, I have to use those strategies.
(15:09):
So let's learn them in the beginning, let's
get good at them, and
let's test them out.
How much strength do they have for
us?
I think this might also apply if I went
to see a personal trainer and they
start me off doing certain exercises with
a low number of weights,
a few pounds or kilograms.
(15:30):
I'm guessing they're checking to
see, huh, at what point
does this help Terri's body?
First of all, we can't start with the high
numbers first.
Her muscles aren't ready, her stamina isn't
ready, so let's start her on this lower dose
of how many pounds or kilograms she's
working with, and reps, and
(15:51):
then we're going to see.
If my body fat percentage starts coming
down and you can start seeing
tone in my body, do you
need to go up to a higher number
of kilograms or pounds in my hand to
do the exercise?
Probably not.
And I'm big on let's do the
least effort to
(16:14):
get the most benefits.
Now this isn't-- I'm not talking biohacking,
I'm not talking about quick fixes.
But again, if you are someone
whose body is able to release
weight doing TRE
and eating the right foods,
bravo, I love that.
(16:35):
And if your body doesn't yet
show you that this is
a therapeutic level, great.
You've now got these stabilizing
forces ready and now you
can dial up.
You can dial to doing some 24-hour
fasts.
Again, same thing.
For some people, moving up
(16:57):
to the 24.
Bingo, the results start
presenting themselves.
For others of us, the bigger results
we're looking for don't yet appear with
24s.
It almost feels like some kind of lottery.
It's like, "Okay, am I gonna be one of those
people who sees the results at 18/6?
Okay, not 18, let me see.
(17:19):
Will I be one who sees the-- okay,
not at 24." But that's what
it is to keep testing.
Build the foundation, move
to the next level when your body is ready,
and stay there for a little while to
find out are you getting the results
you want. Because I think that's another
thing that many people
(17:41):
(out of maybe excitement and
drive) bypass, is they
don't wait enough to even
see if the current dose is enough.
They just want to go for the higher dose -
more fasts, more frequent fasts,
longer hours.
Let's see what your body can show you at this
level.
(18:01):
Not yet seeing your body's full potential
to release weight?
Let's turn it up.
Let's do the next step toward
decreasing that insulin resistance.
Exactly. And I think it might be a good idea
to tell people what the next step is,
because-- and you've talked about this
before. I've heard you talk about this, where
(18:21):
we start with 16/8, 18/6,
and then people start doing weird things with
the clock. They're like, "Oh, can I make it
to 20 or 22?" And
so day by day by day, they're thinking,
"I just want to stretch the clock, stretch
the clock." And that's not what
we mean when we talk about upping the
dial and therapeutic fasting.
(18:42):
We're actually talking about adding up
to three therapeutic fasts, so three or
four. Okay, but, earlier on in
the dial, can we add three
fasting days a week in?
And a fasting day would be a one-meal day,
meaning a 24-hour fast, or a no-meal
day, meaning a 36 or a 42-hour
fast. And, in general, we
(19:04):
recommend alternating them.
And so, instead of what we think about
with 16/8 or 18/6 as something that we do
every single day, when we start
upping the dial, we want to add
those in about three days a week.
And I think that's an important distinction
to make because of how many people that
haven't made that distinction, but also
because, when we think about the
(19:26):
effectiveness and how long we want to do
this, we don't want to be necessarily
therapeutic fasting or doing something beyond
time-restricted eating indefinitely.
We want that to be kind of time-limited,
based on our goals.
Now, for some people, it's going to take
longer than others, but you
might be able to get this thing knocked out
in six to nine months if you
(19:48):
are intense about it and if you show up to
it consistently.
And so what we're really talking about that
is can you show up for three
days of fasting consistently, week
after week after a week, for six to
nine months?
Heather, I love that you really highlighted
this idea that therapeutic fasting
isn't necessarily something that you have
(20:09):
to do long term.
You have to it while you need that level
of intensity.
And then we're going to work on how do
we dial back. How do we get to
a place where we can maintain
our health and our weight goals?
But something else that you said in there
that I wanted to go back to is the idea
(20:30):
that, as you said, it's not just adding
number of hours.
Because all of a sudden, I have clients who
say, "Well, every day I'm getting to
19.
How come nothing's happening yet?" That's
not really the goal, even though that's
what it might sound like when it's like, "Go
a little longer, go a lot longer." Actually,
what we're talking about is get to
(20:51):
the point where you can stretch to that next
kind of level of intensity that
provides benefits.
So I often encourage people
to think about (again, depending on what
their needs are) at what
point in a fast do we
start to see some of the stronger
benefits of fasting?
(21:13):
So if you say, "Hey Terri, I did
18 hours three times last week.
How come I didn't lose weight?" I'm pretty
sure you and I no longer would consider
18 hours from their last meal yesterday
to their first meal today as fasting.
We would see that as good, healthy
meal timing.
That's great for us, But it doesn't
(21:35):
really get the benefits
of fasting going
if our therapeutic need is more.
So what happens as we
get to some of those higher numbers?
Not just 19 instead of
18, but 24,
36, 42.
(21:57):
And, at some point, I have talked about this
many times, so some of you may be familiar
with this, but the idea of what I call
The Three Amigos.
This is not about the movie, The Three
Amigos, but I do picture that.
I should probably create a meme about that[
laughter], but there are three
big things that I
encourage people to think about.
(22:18):
Once I get to a certain number
of hours into a fast,
my body is no longer just prepping
me and doing good things.
I suddenly have these three assistants
that are really powerful.
I have autophagy, that
self-cleaning, getting rid of the old
tissues, and things.
(22:39):
I have increased noradrenaline, so
increased fat burning, which
is, I think, what many of us want.
And I have increased human growth
hormone, which helps me--
you know, if the last one was helping me burn
body fat, this one is helping me take
those amino acids and create more
lean mass, which is metabolically
(23:01):
more efficient.
So I want to get
to a place where I can invite those three
amigos in regularly.
So moving to a 24,
for some of us then moving that to a 36
or a 42,
that starts to tell us how
long have The Three Amigos,
(23:23):
those three big benefits,
been with you during this fast.
And if, every day, I stop at 19
hours, I'm probably not
getting the benefit of those yet.
But if my therapeutic dose
doesn't require The Three Amigos to
show up, great.
(23:43):
But this is where that kind of
stretching and testing and figuring
out what is therapeutic for
me.
I love that you lay it down there.
I've heard you talk about The Three Amigos
before and I still think of it constantly,
because isn't that such a motivating idea
to have that vision in your head of these
like three gunslingers
(24:06):
[laughs] arriving to help you
with your health goals, you know, once you
hit 24.
And I think knowing that it comes at 24,
and since 24 is one of the
hardest times to fast through,
I think it really is just an extra
little push to know, okay, they just
arrived.
So if you can make it through that
(24:27):
witching hour, which is that dinner time hour
for many of us, you can have your bone
broth, you can have your fasting fluids, you
can take a walk, you can do some distraction
techniques, but if you can have
them come on in and sit down in the living
room and hang out with you overnight
into the next day, then think
about how much you're getting, and most
(24:48):
of that you're sleeping through.
You've got to make it through one tough
dinner and you get all that bonus
effect.
And I think having that idea and having that
vision can help people get past this fear
that they have of overnight fasting,
where it's like, "Oh, I just can't.
I'm okay with OMADs." It's like, well, yeah,
and you're getting right there to the edge of
(25:09):
the magic.
But, man, if you could just figure out that
witching hour, you are unleashing
so much benefit that
people like you and I, Terri, were like, when
we started talking about this today,
we were like, man, it's great for those
people that can use time-restricted eating
and get the goals, but that ain't us.
You know, you and I both required-- my
(25:29):
fasting regimen was three 42s.
And so I needed that push from
The Three Amigos in order to get to where I
wanted to go. And so many of my clients,
so many of the people that I've met are like,
"Well, I've lost a little bit with TRE,
but I'm not really getting where I wanna go."
All right, it's time to dig a little deeper.
Now that you've got that practice and that's
(25:50):
under your belt, now it's time to up
the intensity, push a little
harder, you know, now that you're ready, and
get the real magic going.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna wrap up with one more thing here,
Heather.
Consistency. It's not enough to have
The Three Amigos over once, just like
it's not enough to go to the gym and do an
(26:12):
intense workout and then wonder how come
your muscle tone hasn't changed, your
strength hasn't changed.
The consistency-- you keep saying like
three times a week for
week after week, for months in
a row. The consistency is
also part of the therapeutic dose.
Don't tell me, "I did a therapeutic fast
(26:34):
on April 3rd.
How come I didn't see the results?"
What have you done since April 3rd?
Have you continued to do
those fasts at the length
that works for your body?
That's where we see the results.
Couldn't agree more.
And since we started talking about medicine,
let's finish with medicine.
My favorite analogy, and the one that really
(26:56):
spoke to me that Megan Ramos uses,
is the idea of chemotherapy.
If you have a tough diagnosis,
it's not like you come to chemotherapy when
you feel like it, or when it's convenient,
or when you don't have a lot of social
engagements coming up.
You show up for chemotherapy.
You don't want to
(27:17):
have this thing left undealt with.
And so, even if it's uncomfortable, even if
you don't want to, even if you don't feel like
it, you get in the car and you show up for
treatment.
And I think that's the piece that people
really need to hear when it comes to
doing this work.
If you don't want this thing to drag out
indefinitely, you want to get in here,
do the hard stuff, and get it done,
(27:40):
then you need to show up consistently, just
like you're saying. I love that you don't
have The Three Amigos over once.
No, they need to be regular guests
if you want this magic to happen, folks,
regular guests.
Absolutely.
Okay, Heather, well I think we have done a
great job of summing up our passion about
this topic of therapeutic fasting.
(28:01):
I look forward to everyone applying
this to their work that they're doing.
Get consistent, start with level
one, and dial up to figure
out where does your body need you
to give it that support.
So, until we come back, I wish everyone
well. Happy fasting.
Make good choices.
(28:21):
[music]
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!