August 7, 2024 • 45 mins
There is a new app where you pay to skip ads. 50% of that money goes to the podcaster. Is this a win-win for all involved? Could streaming satoshis unlock more ways for both the advertiser, the podcaster, and THE LISTENER to benefit?
What ethical considerations surrounding using an ad-skipping feature in podcasting, especially when advertisers pay for ads that may ultimately not be heard?
How might the widespread use of pay-per-skip ad models affect smaller, independent podcasters compared to larger, established podcasts?
Efforts like the Podcast Standards Project aim to set uniform guidelines for metrics and analytics. These initiatives are crucial for bringing coherence to a fragmented industry.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
More potential for ad slots?
Daniel, future of podcasting episode 48,
(00:21):
future of ad slots. What do you mean by
that? Do we have sponsors now? Oh, I wish we did.
Noah, You listening right now, you are
our sponsor. Send us to Instagram. Some streaming satoshis,
PayPal, whatever, pizza. But I was thinking more
this is inspired by a recent episode of Pod News Weekly Review, which we'll have
(00:44):
the link in the notes for this episode, where they interviewed
Micah who created this app, Adblock Podcast,
which the first time you heard
about this idea, Dave, of you could get an
app that using AI or some kind of algorithm would allow
you as a listener to skip the ads in podcast that you
(01:06):
listen to. What were your immediate reactions? My first
reaction was, oh, this ought to be good. Okay. Can't wait to
see the details of this one. That was my first reaction. Can't wait to hear
what the judge says about that. Right? Yeah. I was
the same way. I thought, oh, this is horrible. This person doesn't understand
podcasting. The podcasting industry doesn't respect podcasters or advertisers
(01:28):
or audiences. Well, obviously, it respects audiences. I would
say I was wrong about several of those things.
And hearing the interview in Pod News Weekly Review
with James Cridland who conducted that interview, it got the
wheels in my head turning since I looked at that loony old
man. And it made me
(01:49):
think of better potential because I I
heard more details about what Micah
was originally intending, or maybe not even originally, but what he's
building now, and it's different from what I originally
expected. I thought it was originally you get this app
for free or maybe you pay to use this app, and it skips all the
(02:12):
ads for you, and the app developer pockets all the money by providing
the service to you of skipping the ads. Yeah. That
reeks of fraud. Right. Let's just be upfront with it.
That is bad. Do not do that. Anyone who's thinking of
building an app or a service to do something like that, don't do that. That
could get you in big legal trouble. But that's not what Adblock
(02:34):
podcast actually does. It's got a couple things going
on. I know I just pulled it up. In fact, let me
see if it's still doing its thing. It is still doing its thing. It'd be
interesting to see because that's been going on close to 20 minutes. I'm downloading
the Jordan Harbinger show, and it is processing
the audio. It does say there's one ad detected, So that's interesting.
(02:57):
But if I wanted to stick with this app, there is a I don't know
how much the pay a $4 something like this. I don't know what you pay
per month for the listener. So there's that. And then it pays
the podcaster 4¢
per ad skipped. And according to their website, an ad can be anywhere from
10 seconds to 40 seconds. And so when I just downloaded the
(03:19):
app, it gave me 25 ad skips for free. So the
goal here is to get me hooked on ad free podcasting. So I then fish
out the 4 bucks. So that sounds like, okay. I paid for a
service. I want ad free podcast, and I'm getting that
service. The podcaster is getting paid. So that's something that
hopefully then it's a little less frothy. But the one that gets
(03:40):
me is, wait a minute. What about the advertiser? The
advertiser paid the podcaster money to get his message or her
message into the ears of that audience, and that no longer is
happening. But the podcaster still got paid by the advertiser. And I went,
oh, that's very frothy in my book. If you're saying, oh,
yeah. I'll deliver that message to my audience. And it's weird because in
(04:03):
a way, they did, but this app is now blocking
their intent. And so that's where it's kinda icky.
Totally. If it worked exactly as you described, yes.
I would say, yeah, that's fraud to completely block the ads where the
downloads are being counted, the podcaster is being paid, but the ad
is never being heard. Now, of course, there is the reality of
(04:25):
ad skipping. We all probably skip ads
at some point in our lives, in podcasts, in shows
we watch. We use ad blockers in our browsers and all of this stuff.
We as a society do not like ads and we like to
skip ads if we can and if it's convenient to do so. And
that kind of thing is not always trackable. And I
(04:47):
hope we'll never actually be trackable by the advertisers
or by the podcasters. They don't need to know that information, but it happens.
So if I'm listening in, let's say, Overcast. If I'm listening in
Overcast and I double tap on my Apple AirPods
Pro to skip forward 30 seconds and I've skipped the ad, the
download was still counted, but I never heard the ad.
(05:12):
Usually, I hear enough of the ad to know
what it was about because I've heard the ad enough times or I
can just tell from how they're starting anything like that.
So the product is still in my mind. But, generally, I'm
skipping the ads. Sometimes I completely miss whatever they're talking about, and
the podcaster is still getting paid and the advertiser is still paying even
(05:34):
though I didn't hear the ad at all. And that was simply because
I, the listener, manually skipped over the
ad. So that's going to happen. No matter what technology is
created, that kind of thing is going to happen. And I don't
want this conversation I didn't bring this up to really focus on this one
specific app, but it's the springboard for a bigger conversation that we'll get to in
(05:57):
a moment. But the way that Micah has designed Adblock Podcast,
or whatever it's called by the time you're listening to this, is
to download the media file onto his
server so it shows up as one download inside
of your analytics. Then his system uses
artificial intelligence to discover those ads and skip over
(06:20):
them. It makes a little sound kind of like you hear in Cast O Matic,
I think, does this where if you set Cast O Matic to automatically
skip the first 60 seconds or whatever of an episode, you
hear a kind of bling sound with it. Well,
Adblock Podcast does that too. So you know that an ad was just
skipped. And when it does that, it's pretty
(06:40):
nicely seamless how it does that. It doesn't find every
ad. And you can see once you've followed a
podcast inside of the app, it will start processing all of the episodes
as it's downloading them to his servers looking for the ads and
then skipping over those. You'll start to see how many ads were detected.
It doesn't detect all of them. There have been several podcasts I've tried already
(07:03):
where I know those podcasts have at least 3 ads,
separate ad breaks in them, and none of them are detected. So there
is some tweaking to do. But that aside, if he had
a 1,000 people using his app, then that's only
still one download. So the sponsor,
if an ad was served, the sponsor is paying for
(07:26):
one download. And there is even something
he could do to work around that where some sponsors
will only pay for downloads within certain markets, like only in
the United States or Canada or North America or something like that. And
so if you get a download from Abu Dhabi, you're not going to
be paid for it anyway. And some of these dynamic or programmatic
(07:49):
ad insertion techniques also don't insert ads into those things. That can start to
get tricky to try and auto detect that. Yeah. But if he's downloading
it one time, then it's not exactly ad fraud.
It's ad fraud in the sense of one download, and it's a
bot. That bot probably wouldn't even show up in your analytics
anyway. But let's say and I'll just keep using Jordan Harbinger because
(08:12):
I like his show and he has ads. But what if a bunch of Jordan's
audience starts to use this app? Then instead of having
we'll just keep the math easy. A 1,000 downloads. He has one. He
lost 999 downloads. I guess we'd have to do
the math because 4¢ is basically what? A
$40 CPM? Right. Yeah. And host
(08:34):
rides are not getting $40 CPM Okay. As far as I know. So
on one end, he might be getting paid more
Exactly. Per person. So that's interesting.
Yeah. This has got me thinking. Alright. Yeah. See, that's what I'm saying. It it
gets you thinking about it. And think of it from the listener side
too, where there are all of these podcasts now
(08:56):
that their approach to value for value
is that they they have to take ads for their podcast. Maybe they don't
want to run a business. Maybe they're not able to run a business. Maybe they
can't take the risk because going purely value for
value is a big risk for podcasters because you might
not get enough people, people might not give enough. Anything like that could
(09:17):
happen. It is a big risk. Yes. Life is full of risks. So I'm not
negating that. I'm not saying that that's bad. It's just something to be
aware of. But for some people, advertising might be
the best way for them to monetize with their goals for
their podcast. And some of them then offer an
ad free version for $10 a month, $20 a
(09:39):
month, $5 a month, whatever. And for 1
podcast, that doesn't sound too bad. I think, yeah, I really enjoy
this podcast. Yeah. It's definitely worth $10 a month to be able to
enjoy it without ads. Well, then multiply that times how many
podcasts you have that you listen to that have ads in it. It
starts getting really expensive if you're having to pay $10 a
(10:01):
month for 1 podcast to get that podcast
without ads. Yeah. And maybe that's only a weekly podcast. So
you're only talking about it could be only a dozen ad slots
per month, and you're paying $10 for that. But then think about it
from this perspective of what Micah is doing with
Adblock podcast where you as the listener
(10:24):
are paying $2 toward the podcaster
and, also, then $2 goes toward him or at least that's the pricing right now.
But let's assume that that pricing amount stays. Maybe it's
just multiplied or bigger packages in the future. But let's assume then you
are paying about 8¢ per
ad to skip it. That is totally doable.
(10:47):
Like, for anyone who's struggling with cash flow, and and I'm one of those people
that I have to watch my cash flow very carefully and budget very tightly right
now. I cannot do $5 for every podcast I
listen to in order to get it ad free. But 8¢ per
ad to not hear that ad, I could probably do
that. That might be a total of 5 to $10
(11:08):
per month for all of those podcasts for me.
Right. And I know there's that thought of, well, for the
podcaster then, they're only getting that tiny amount
instead of $10 per person. But here's the
other way to look at it. You're getting a tiny amount that you wouldn't
have gotten from someone otherwise. That was one of the things that I was
(11:32):
like, oh, that's not well thought out is he he mentioned that, like,
how do I pay the first, I think you have to get $50. That's the
threshold to get paid. And when he gets to that, he's gonna Google your
show. And I was like, yeah, that needs that needs a little propping
up a little bit. The only other thing I could think of
that I go, is what if somebody's
(11:54):
right on the edge? You know, you need whatever 10,000 downloads
to have your ad, and so they they get somebody because they have 10,000.
And then for whatever reason, his their audience. So there's a lot of, like, it
just so happens then that that Friday, everybody jumped on this app. Well,
now they don't get the 10,000 downloads. So, yes, they
got maybe paid more, but now they're like, well, we paid for
(12:17):
10,000 downloads. You said you had 10,000, and we only had 8,000.
Well, because 2,000 people are using this. That's once
then again, we're we're not nitpicking. But I was like, that would be one situation
where it'd be like, okay. The good news is you got paid more than you
were than if it was a host. Right? The bad news is this app kinda
puts you under the threshold, and they're not gonna renew because you don't have enough
(12:38):
downloads. Yeah. Or you have to do make goods with the sponsor or
something about or renegotiate. That's I'm just trying to think of, like, what what could
happen here that would be bad? So I thought, well, that might be one if
you're right on the edge. What I would love to see happen with
this is this be turned into more of a
framework where Sam gets to say pretty much to
(12:58):
everything. Oh, yeah. We've already implemented that with Podfans
or True Fans. Sorry, Sam. I beg your forgiveness with True Fans.
Well, what I realized that I kind of get to say frequently
is, oh, yeah. I proposed an idea for that.
So maybe that's my thing as I get to say that all the time, but
I did propose something. It didn't go all that far a while back,
(13:20):
but some kind of open protocol that would allow
podcasters to offer this kind of functionality in
any podcasting 2.0 app. And we are
almost there with the whole streaming satoshis
thing. We are almost there. Now I know the streaming
satoshi stuff is all up in the air kind of right now, and we've talked
(13:41):
about that. Other podcasters have talked about that at the same time that we did.
So, yes, there is some stuff there that's still questionable how exactly
we'll work that out. But it it's looking like we're still gonna be able to
make it work. Think of it like this. What if inside of a podcast
app and in your RSS feed, you could do something where
you indicate your ad spots in the
(14:03):
chapters or some information inside of the RSS
feed. And if someone streams a
certain amount of Satoshis, like a minimum threshold, then they get
to skip the ads. And the podcast app takes care of
then seeing where those ads are, ensuring that the person is
streaming those satoshis and then skips those ads appropriately. I think
(14:25):
that kind of thing I know that when people say, well, if we expose the
data of when the ads are, then people will build systems that will
automatically skip the ads. Yes. Exactly. That's what we
want them to do. But the point is to do it conveniently.
Let's jump back in the not completely early days of the Internet, but
the early days of when the Internet started really getting cool. Back
(14:47):
when Napster was around and BitTorrent was really big and all of this
stuff, and I will admit I was a BitTorrenter. The
reason wasn't because I didn't want to pay. The reason
I and many other people use BitTorrent and stuff, and I did it primarily for
TV shows, which would have been free to watch anyway. But for me, it was
an issue of convenience. I wanted to be able to
(15:08):
watch the TV show on my computer. I didn't have a
TV. For many years. I didn't have a TV at all. I didn't want to
pay for cable Internet. I didn't wanna set up an antenna or anything like
that. I just wanted to watch the show. I didn't care if it had ads
in it. I was fine with that if I could watch it for free. I
just wanted to watch it when I wanted to watch it on my
(15:29):
compute. You can see why I love podcasts so much because of the on
demand idea. The time shifted. Yep. And Apple was not the first
ones to do this, but they made it the easiest. When Itunes came around
and started allowing you to buy a song where you could buy an album for
usually about $10 for an album or a single
track from any album for only 99¢, That made
(15:51):
it really convenient to do, and that
exploded because people wanted the convenience. They did not
necessarily want it free. Yeah. Sure. There were plenty of
people out there who wanted everything for free. Those are the extreme cases,
I think. But there are people out there who just want it
convenient. So if the Podcasting
(16:13):
2.0 apps could build this into their system where, yes,
they read where the ads are. And they totally have the ability to
skip the ads for the people using the app, but
only if the people who are using that app
pay a certain amount of streaming satoshis. And and we're
not talking a whole lot either. You think of just a 100
(16:35):
sats per ad spot? Like, a 100.
That's nothing. Well Yeah. In actual dollars right
now, a 100 sats would be since a 1,000
sats is the cost of Bitcoin in pennies, the cost of Bitcoin, if
we say it's 65,000 right now, if just throwing that number
out there. If it's 65,000, then a 100 sats
(16:57):
would be 6.5¢. 1,000 sats would be
65¢. So a 100 6.5¢. So that is
already 3 times what the podcaster could earn
through a standard $25 CPM where then the ad agency
takes $5 of that at least, if not more.
Yeah. So you've already tripled your profit, and you've made it
(17:19):
more convenient for the audience. But then you could maybe
even put in the app, you could build it in where it
says something like, you can listen to this with the ads completely
free or stream this many satoshis or
unlock it ad free for a 1000 satoshis, listen ad
free. And it's a button you press right at the beginning. It sends the
(17:42):
satoshis right away, unlocks it, and skips all the ads automatically
without having to worry about how many ad slots are there. You could do something
like that where you say, listen to this episode ad free for only this tiny
amount. And you could set that to whatever. And, of course, the ad develop
app developers could make it so the listener could set
whatever amount they want to put in there, like, they decide, no. I wanna give
(18:03):
you 10,000 sats to be able to listen to this ad free.
You build it convenient like that, and I think people will like it.
It reminds me of, which I couldn't believe it. I knew it was coming, but
when it happened, you're like, oh, they're they weren't kidding. Have you
watched any movies on Amazon Prime recently? Because
I went to watch I forget what it was. It might have been
(18:25):
If the, imaginary friends or whatever.
But it was like, your movie will start after these
two advertisements. 1 was for Amazon, which I always find weird. I'm
like, I'm on Amazon already. You don't really need to. You know, but they're
trying to sell me Prime, and I'm like, I'm already on you know? So there
was that, and then it was an ad for T Mobile. And the thing that
(18:47):
drove me nuts is every time I pause the movie, if I went back or,
like, the next day or something like that to watch it oh, it was, the
one about the bomb, Oppenheimer. Okay. Because it took me, like, 4 days to watch
that movie. And every time I went to watch it, it'd be like, you can
watch this ad free. And I'm like, no. I've already paid my dues. I've already
seen the ad, and it was always the same T Mobile ad. So I would
(19:08):
love it if it said, hey. You can watch this ad free by just
clicking this button, and we won't show you the ads. I love that idea.
I expected to see ads, really, and so it surprised me that I have not
seen ads yet. And I'm not upgrading because, like you just said,
I'm already paying for Amazon Prime. A lot. I'm of this
type, and this is why I never subscribe to TV service,
(19:31):
to cable Internet or cable TV. Yeah. Because
my perspective as a senior millennial
is I don't want to pay and still get ads.
Yeah. And then the the option was, well, if you don't like it,
we'll just cancel your prime. And you're like, yeah, but I like free shipping.
(19:51):
And I like in theory, next day delivery or whatever
promising, which I'm noticing more and more. It's like, oops. I know we said we
get it to you tomorrow, but we were just kidding. You'll get it on
Tuesday. You're like, wait. What? You know? So Or you can't even watch the show
then. I remember, like, the early days of Hulu, the
very, very early days. I jumped on Hulu. I don't know how quickly
(20:13):
after it came out, but it was around that same time. And I
started to stop torrenting because Hulu made it convenient.
And then Hulu had this really cool thing where I don't know if they still
do it, but maybe some places still offer this kind of thing where they say
you can either watch this with normal ad breaks or watch
this extended ad upfront and then
(20:34):
have no ads or fewer ads later. And
there's some interesting psychology here, and it comes to play also
in mobile games too. And I heard someone put this really well,
is there are kind of 2 approaches that you can take to
mobile games and advertising in mobile games. And this is relevant to podcasting as
you'll see in a moment. One approach that you can take is,
(20:57):
hey. You're playing this game for free. Now watch this ad. That's a
disruptive thing. It's interrupting my flow. I get
annoyed by the ad. I get annoyed by the game because I'm forced
to sit through this ad that I don't wanna watch because the game
was free, which, yeah, I'm getting a free game, but here I have to have
this ad that I cannot skip. But then the other approach, I love
(21:18):
it when games do this, is they will then say,
would you like to watch an ad and get
500 gold tokens or get a free upgrade or, you know,
speed up your build process or anything like that. So it's like,
oh, you mean there's some value to me
in the game? You enhance the experience for me
(21:41):
if I watch your ad. Now the psychology flips around to the other
side where now I see there's something in it for me too.
So, yeah, I have no problem playing the ad
because I know I'm gonna get some gold tokens from this that I can use
to make the game more fun. So it's rewarding me for the
ads. And I know at this moment, probably Sam Sethi is saying, hey. We do
(22:03):
that with true fans. And, yes, I wanna bring that in because Sam has done
something interesting with true fans where he is offering
the podcaster the opportunity to do a reverse
stream back to the audience. If you
listen to this ad, we'll give you not a
100 or a 1000 satoshis. I think that would be unreasonable depending on how much
(22:26):
you're getting paid for that ad. But maybe it is, like, 10 satoshis. Hey.
We'll give you 10 satoshis. Go ahead. Keep listening to this ad. We'll give you
10 satoshis to listen to this ad. Or this
could be like a little option. We give you 10 satoshis to listen
or pay us a 100 or a 1000 or whatever it is. A 100
satoshis, we'll say. Or pay us a 100 satoshis, and you can skip the ad.
(22:48):
Or something like, let's play this episode. We'll pay you a 100
sat to listen to this episode as it is with the ads or
prepay a 1,000 sats, and you get to hear it with no ads
or whatever amount that you want to enter to pay for this above
a threshold if you want. Yeah. And did you get
Sam's email about his new 2 click fill your wallet thing?
(23:11):
That is looking great because I love Sam's approach with this
that it's making the process easier. Yep. And that is so much
what we need. And that's why when we did that episode that I kept trying
to say, let's not get doom and gloom about this because the challenge
arose, and people are rising to the challenge and discovering
ways to innovate around this. Yeah. I'm waiting to hear
(23:33):
Friday's podcasting 2.0 because I know Oscar at
Fountain has been working on something, and it sounds like I listened to the
episode that they did from some Bitcoin conference. And they
made a great point. They're like, I think for this to really work, instead
of having one place, like get Albi, and then they
end up having so much money go through their system that it might grab the
(23:56):
attention of somebody that if there are multiple people offering
wallets, which is basically what Sam is doing now, you can get a wallet through
true fans that still some monetize into Alby. And I'm like,
okay. Don't understand how you're doing that, but okay. But it
makes Albie not nervous, so I'll you know, yay. Yay, Sam.
Keep on doing what you're doing. But if there are multiple people offering wallets,
(24:17):
then it might not be quite such a a lightning rod of, hey.
What's going on over there kind of thing? So I was glad to hear it.
I haven't played with it yet. I've I've filled up my wallet all the time
because I can just use a good old credit card, and it's $10. And it
literally is, like, 2 clicks. It's like, oh, here it is. And Stripe
remembers my credit card. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad
thing, but it does. And I click a button, and the next thing you know,
(24:40):
I only got $10 worth of Satoshis in my wallet. So it's awesome. And
I really don't mind each app
requiring a different wallet for the audience. I think that makes total
sense, even to the point where that podcast
app is the wallet for the audience member.
So if I'm listening in Podcast Guru,
(25:03):
I give Podcast Guru $5, and then I get
$5 worth of Sats at that time, whatever that's worth, whatever that
conversion rate is. And that gets loaded into my Podcast Guru
wallet that then I can distribute out to whatever apps are out there.
Or maybe I subscribe, so $10 a month to Podcast
Guru and then $9 of that or maybe the full $10 or
(25:25):
whatever automatically gets converted at whatever the current rate is, and I get
those satoshis to then stream out and do all of this cool stuff with it.
I think that's cool. On the podcaster side, I
don't want podcasters to have to mess with multiple wallets because an
audience No. Will generally probably use only 1 or
2 apps. Like, when you think of about the the fringe
(25:47):
audience on the fringe that is who wants to
support through streaming satoshis, they'll probably use
one app for that and then their preferred
their favorite podcast app for all their other listening
unless the podcasting 2.0 app gets so good that it
replaces their normal app, and some of them are getting very close to that. I
(26:09):
know another person that does, and I'm I'm moving this way. When Overcast
came out with a new version, I was like, oh, I wonder what's new. And
I kinda went over there, and I was like, oh, I I forgot how much
I like this app. And I'm very close to having my
non satoshi streaming stuff in overcast
and everything else, no agenda, you know, podcasting 2 point
(26:29):
o, SoundOff podcasts are a couple that I listen to that are doing value for
value. And I was like, maybe I'll just keep those in cast o matic. And
when I feel like it, I'll use that app. And and and then it's really
a matter of, like, how much do you miss that show if you haven't listened
to it for a while because it's not automatically coming up in your playlist. You're
like, oh, wait a minute. I haven't heard from whatever show. And then I go,
(26:50):
that's because it's in the other app. So that's the the weird part of it,
but I I'm very close to doing that. And on the podcaster
side, we do not need multiple wallets. I I want us to
have just one wallet for each podcaster or per podcast.
And I really think the logical place for that to
happen is the podcast hosting providers who
(27:12):
might already have the necessary
protocols in place to be custodians
of money for you, think of Patreon. You know, people
pay Patreon, and then Patreon distributes that money to
you. And that's because
they're not wallets that you can use in other places. I think
(27:34):
that's part of the problem that we're running soon. I know we're kind of
shifting subjects completely here, but it's all connected. I
promise. That's part of the problem that we're running into is that
in thinking along the lines of cryptocurrency, there is the
idea of it's in your wallet. If it's not in your
wallet, if you don't have the keys, Elon Musk said this one time. He
(27:56):
said something like, not your keys, not your wallet. If you
don't have the private key to your wallet, then it's not really your
crypto. I can understand that. I think if we get
out of the mindset of wallets and instead just think
about it as you've accrued this and you get paid once
a month. That happens everywhere, and people do that without trouble.
(28:18):
I do that with my own affiliates. Like for Podgageman, I pay them
at the beginning of each month. They have accrued a certain
amount, and then they get paid that amount the next
month. And that's not a wallet issue. That that
kind of thing works with all kinds of affiliates and systems out there,
and there's no huge legal trouble there. It's
(28:40):
when I, as a service provider, am managing your
wallet for you, that's where things start to get
trickier. We can still use cryptocurrency for this
kind of stuff. But maybe it's something like as soon as it
comes or once a month when it comes into your podcast
hosting provider, into their system, then they send it
(29:02):
out to your specific lightning wallet,
whatever that is. And more and more places now are
starting to offer that you can receive Bitcoin through the
Lightning Network, like Coinbase, for example. I can
transfer Bitcoin over the Lightning Network to my
Coinbase account. I cannot use that Coinbase
(29:24):
address as my Podcasting 2.0 value block
wallet. Lots of lingo there. It doesn't work for
that. But it does work for just receiving a straight transfer.
And that's the kind of thing that podcast hosting providers could do. Or
maybe even the apps do something like that instead of
the providers. But then the apps start having to manage all of these
(29:46):
inboxes and outboxes for all of these podcasts, and that starts to get
become a mess. I think it totally makes sense for the hosting providers to
offer that. And then the apps doing these different
methods could integrate then even with that. I mean,
think of it like that where it comes to this whole ad
blocking thing coming up, bringing it back. See, I promised we'd be there
(30:08):
relevant again. Bringing it back to the ad blocking concept. If
the ads are dynamically inserted, then
there's either something to skip or not something to skip. And
if it's downloaded every time, it could be a different ad, which might
potentially be a different length. But what if the app
could trigger to the podcast hosting provider? This
(30:30):
podcaster has paid to listen to this ad free.
So do not do any dynamic content insertion
of ads. And there need to be the ability for then the
providers to indicate what's an ad and what's an announcement. And the podcast
would have to be honest about that kind of thing too. Like, you use
DCI, dynamic content insertion, with Skoll podcasting, and they're
(30:52):
not all sponsored spots. No. They're all well, there's I'm the sponsor. That's the
fun part. But you do, like, your question of the month? No. Question of the
month. Yeah. That's not that where am I gonna be is not an ad. So,
yeah, it doesn't always have to be an ad. And then I think,
on ask the podcast coach, I'm now using some dynamic stuff. I'm playing with
Buzzsprout. And, my one little it's like 10 seconds.
(31:15):
It's like, hey. Not listening to this live? Go to ask the podcast
coach.com/voice mail and leave us a message, and we'll, you know, we'll answer your
question, you know, when we're live or whatever. So it doesn't always have to
be an ad. It can be and that's just me playing, basically. But it's like,
hey. What would I say to these people? I'm like, well, we need for the
show. So I just had it, and it does. It does that weird little
(31:36):
noise and then Do do do do do do. Yeah. It's like, okay.
Yeah. And imagine, again, for the audience, what
if they have the ability to just pay and skip any of those that are
not announcements? And that's where it does come into what are you
inserting and Yeah. Is there a way that you can
ethically indicate that it should not be skipped?
(31:59):
That starts to get complicated, I know. But there's
great potential here, and that's what I like seeing
where and, you know, we started with this as, oh, no. This
is gonna get someone in legal trouble Right. Into
here's a whole new way of building a value for value
ecosystem that can solve many of these technical problems
(32:22):
that we might be facing with stuff like Alby or other things like that
and helps the podcaster, helps the
audiences, helps the developers because, yes, anytime value is
exchanged through a podcast app, I think it's okay for the podcast
app to take a cut of that. I think that should be
disclosed maybe. I'm not so sure it's necessary to disclose that
(32:44):
to the audience, but definitely disclose that to the
podcaster. Because, like, right now, when you're paying with a credit
card at Chick Fil A, do you know how much they're
paying in merchant fees? Yeah. They don't disclose that to you. It it
doesn't really matter. You just know I'm paying way too much for a chicken
sandwich nowadays. So I don't think
(33:05):
the audience needs to know. As long as the podcaster
knows what the amount was that was given, just like we see that with
PayPal or Stripe payments. We see, oh, yeah. Someone paid $10.
I'm getting $9.50 of that or whatever it works out to
be. I think that's fine. It'll be interesting to see because there's a lot
We're sending things back to the media host and yeah. I mean, if you think
(33:28):
about it, there are newer services that don't have the tech debt
that some of the older hosts do. And so Pod Home
could, you know, maybe try something like that. Because when you're talking about going back
and forth to a media host and as someone who previously worked
at a a media hosting company, I don't know if I wanna deal with support
where it's like, hey, man. I'm down 12 and a half satoshis.
(33:50):
You guys are taking my money. You know? I'm like, do we really wanna
ingest that into support? That could be a nightmare, but it'd be it'd be fun
to try. And and somebody like Podholme could could give it a shot. You never
know. When that's where while this stuff is still a bit
complicated and your grandmother or your aunt or whoever, your mom,
can't do this stuff yet. Yes. There's a hidden your mom joke in
(34:13):
there. That's right. Good old aunt Cheryl. I think that
also means that it's the potential to
not have those people complaining about the 12 and a half satoshis
because they know this is cutting edge, this is
bleeding edge technology stuff. I'm taking a risk doing some
of this stuff. I'm okay kind of experimenting and trying some of this while
(34:35):
it's in beta. There's one other point we should probably talk about when it
comes to advertising. Quit making boring ads.
Yeah. If you don't want people to skip your ads, don't make them so boring.
Tom Webster made that point. It's like, if people are skipping your ads, it's because
they're boring. You know what I mean? And a lot of times it is just
the same old bullet points and things like that. So I'm like, yeah. If you
(34:57):
think about all the, all the ads that we talk about, remember that one, the
Alka Seltzer one and the where's the beef lady? Like, those are all kind of
funny and entertaining versus just like, yeah. Here's the
facts. You know? Life is hard. Better help. You know? Okay. We
get it. It's like so so put some creativity
in there. So And that is the one party
(35:19):
that stands to lose with a value exchange like this, with some kind of
value for value where you get to pay to skip the ads and you're paying
a very small amount but more than the ad itself was actually worth.
Yes. The advertiser, they're losing opportunity. They're
not losing money. They're losing opportunity. But the thing is,
though, do the advertisers actually
(35:41):
want to pay to put their product out there?
And, I mean, I know the basic answer is yes. But what I'm getting at
here is if they're not paying for it,
they're not losing. So, yes, it means let
let's just take an example. Since you mentioned Jordan Harbinger, a very popular podcaster,
if advertisers are now
(36:04):
paying less because they're getting to a smaller
portion of his audience because some of his audience, let's say, 10% of his
audience moves over. So the advertiser is getting 10%
fewer impressions. So they're paying 10% less.
Are they really losing? Not really. They're they're paying less.
They're getting fewer impressions. Yes. Right. But
(36:28):
fewer impressions that they're not paying for. Poor.
So it's not like they're being ripped off. They're not gaining from the
system, but they're also not losing.
They're just not reaching as many people, but they
might not be reaching those people anyway because those people
are skipping ads probably. Yeah. It it depends
(36:50):
for me if I'm riding my bike or something where
my hands are tied driving. I will not skip ads if I'm driving because
I don't wanna have to reach up on the dashboard or something like that. But
if it's just me walking or I'm sitting here at my desk and the phone
is right there, oh, yeah. We're we're as soon as then especially
depending on some of those people go for, you know, 5, 10 minutes of
(37:11):
ads, and you're like, yeah. Skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. Nope.
Skip. One more. Skip. Skip. Skip. Skip.
And skip. Okay. Yes. Okay. And we're back, and then it's them going, hey. Thanks
so much for listening. That's the end of the show. And you're like, jeez, Louise.
Yeah. And it's probably also not exactly that the advertisers are
thinking, oh, we have got to get Casper mattresses
(37:32):
on Jordan Harbinger. So it's a perfect fit. His
audience is the perfect audience of all of the podcasts out there.
We have to advertise our mattresses to his audience.
They're not really thinking like that. They're just thinking many of these
big advertisers on the big podcast are very general
needs sort of thing. Like, everybody needs a mattress. Everybody
(37:56):
needs help. Everybody you know, all of this stuff is very general.
Yes. There are some of the cases where it is a more niche advertiser
wants to advertise, and you've probably had this on your podcast day if I've had
some advertisers come after me month after month after month
begging to support and sponsor my some of my
podcasts, and I just don't like having ads. But and there there are
(38:18):
cases for that, and certainly, we can find ways to work around
that, I think. But in general, that's not happening a whole lot.
It's usually these general purpose
advertisers going after general audiences but
engaged audiences. But they're not thinking we have
to get that podcast for our very general product. It's
(38:41):
only Jordan's audience that sleeps. Right. We we
need to get it on his show. Nobody else needs pillows and
mattresses. Well, the reason I bring up Jordan too, if you want a good example
of somebody who has, like, 3 ad breaks a show, but, a, he
always makes them somewhat lighthearted, even his teas before he
goes in. A lot of his ad reads, he'll work in a story about his
(39:04):
kid or his wife. So it's not just here are the 5
facts about this pillow. They make you wanna buy it. No. It's they're a
little more entertaining. And he gets to them. It's he hits it,
quits it, next one. And then because there's
value because I listen a lot to, feedback Friday.
I'm willing to sit through ads because I know there's another
(39:26):
outrageous story on the other side of this ad, and there's always 2. He doesn't
do more than 2. That's you start doing 3. I'm like, okay. Now I
gotta find the skip button. But 2, I'm like, oh, I'll hang with that
with Jordan. Not everybody else, but Jordan, I'll hang for 2. And I love that
you brought that up because that's another point that was on my mind is that
this whole idea of potentially being able to pay to skip ads,
(39:48):
it is also relative to the podcast because some podcasts, you want
to hear the ads. Yeah. Some podcasts, you
so desperately do not want to hear
ads interrupted because maybe it is a super gripping
story. We're just like, why is going to happen? And
now do you need psychological help?
(40:11):
Yes. Because you're interrupting my story. Or, you
know, some of these dynamic things might insert the
ad in such a horrible place.
Maybe I don't know if any of them do this, but it could be, like,
maybe it's interrupting the music or interrupting the line of dialogue in a
story or interrupting the scene instead of being between scenes in the
(40:32):
story. Or maybe there are some of those fall asleep kind of
podcasts where you want to drift to sleep with a
nice, peaceful, melatonin,
melodramatic, monotone, all of that,
just calm. And then Friday, Friday, Friday.
And, you know 15:15 minutes will save you 15% because
(40:55):
Who do I have to pay to never hear this ad again while I'm trying
to fall asleep? That's where it might become far
more valuable to an audience to for this
particular podcast, I'll I'll pay 10,000 satoshis to not
hear an ad at all while I'm listening to this podcast
because I don't want my listening to be interrupted at
(41:17):
all. I even make my family pay to interrupt me if I'm listening to the
podcast. It could be to that point. And that's where
the idea of value for value is what is it worth to you?
You set that value, put that value in numbers and
give that back. So what is it worth to you
to not hear an ad? What can you give? What do
(41:41):
you want to give? Like, for me, I can't
give what it's worth to me at times.
But I would love the ability to give something
to not hear the ads, certainly more than the ad is worth to the podcaster.
I'd love to give a podcaster 4¢ to skip
an ad they're being paid only 2¢ for. I'd love to do
(42:03):
that, and I could totally afford that. And then someday, if I'm
able to do more, then I could say, hey. I'll give you a dollar to
not hear an ad. I'd skip that for a dollar.
Exactly. We did get one boostagram
from, Brian to relax mail. He gave us a
(42:23):
row of ducks, 2222. Says, I I guess, we had said
something about we didn't get any boostigrams. And he says, well, we can't have y'all
feeling unloved. So thank you, Brian. We appreciate that.
And, if you'd like to send us a boost, just go to those
one of those awesome new podcast apps. We also have buttons, I believe, out
on our website if you wanna send it that way. Of course, you can always
(42:45):
check out Podgagement. You can check out the School of Podcasting. That's another way to
support the show. But that's gonna do it for episode 48,
and I wanna check here. It's been going now,
45 minutes. It's still kinda doing the little circle
thingy on the app. So I'm looking at this what is the
Adblock podcast? And I download Jordan shows. It says one ad
(43:07):
detected, and it's just spinning. So I don't know if that's
a good thing or a bad thing, but it's it seems like it's still processing.
You know, a funny thing about that is Jordan actually reached out to me
recently and asked, hey. I figured if everyone you might know of a
way to do this. Is there a way to easily figure out how many
hours of content that I've put out in my podcast? I
(43:30):
thought, well, yeah, there probably is. So I threw together really quickly a
script because he uses the Itunes colon duration tag
in his podcast that has the duration for each episode. It was really easy to
make a script that went through his entire RSS feed, pulled that all
together, and the number was something like, I think,
around 1200 hours of content. Yeah. I think it was
(43:51):
11:57, 1157
hours point 3 or something like that of content.
So inside of Adblock podcast, since you put Jordan
Harbinger's show in there, I think it's still processing
a 1000 hours of content because it seems to go through the
entire RSS feed looking for ads
(44:14):
to be able to skip and and to mark as
ads. So, certainly, there's some opportunity for some optimization there
and some opportunity, maybe even some crowdsourcing. Yeah. This is
episode 1024. So he has a few to to go through
then. That would make sense. Excellent. But, thanks again for
listening. Thanks for those who are, streaming. And, that's gonna do it for
(44:36):
episode 48 of the future of podcasting. Keep boosting and keep
podcasting.
More potential for ad slots?
Daniel, future of podcasting episode 48,
(00:21):
future of ad slots. What do you mean by
that? Do we have sponsors now? Oh, I wish we did.
Noah, You listening right now, you are
our sponsor. Send us to Instagram. Some streaming satoshis,
PayPal, whatever, pizza. But I was thinking more
this is inspired by a recent episode of Pod News Weekly Review, which we'll have
(00:44):
the link in the notes for this episode, where they interviewed
Micah who created this app, Adblock Podcast,
which the first time you heard
about this idea, Dave, of you could get an
app that using AI or some kind of algorithm would allow
you as a listener to skip the ads in podcast that you
(01:06):
listen to. What were your immediate reactions? My first
reaction was, oh, this ought to be good. Okay. Can't wait to
see the details of this one. That was my first reaction. Can't wait to hear
what the judge says about that. Right? Yeah. I was
the same way. I thought, oh, this is horrible. This person doesn't understand
podcasting. The podcasting industry doesn't respect podcasters or advertisers
(01:28):
or audiences. Well, obviously, it respects audiences. I would
say I was wrong about several of those things.
And hearing the interview in Pod News Weekly Review
with James Cridland who conducted that interview, it got the
wheels in my head turning since I looked at that loony old
man. And it made me
(01:49):
think of better potential because I I
heard more details about what Micah
was originally intending, or maybe not even originally, but what he's
building now, and it's different from what I originally
expected. I thought it was originally you get this app
for free or maybe you pay to use this app, and it skips all the
(02:12):
ads for you, and the app developer pockets all the money by providing
the service to you of skipping the ads. Yeah. That
reeks of fraud. Right. Let's just be upfront with it.
That is bad. Do not do that. Anyone who's thinking of
building an app or a service to do something like that, don't do that. That
could get you in big legal trouble. But that's not what Adblock
(02:34):
podcast actually does. It's got a couple things going
on. I know I just pulled it up. In fact, let me
see if it's still doing its thing. It is still doing its thing. It'd be
interesting to see because that's been going on close to 20 minutes. I'm downloading
the Jordan Harbinger show, and it is processing
the audio. It does say there's one ad detected, So that's interesting.
(02:57):
But if I wanted to stick with this app, there is a I don't know
how much the pay a $4 something like this. I don't know what you pay
per month for the listener. So there's that. And then it pays
the podcaster 4¢
per ad skipped. And according to their website, an ad can be anywhere from
10 seconds to 40 seconds. And so when I just downloaded the
(03:19):
app, it gave me 25 ad skips for free. So the
goal here is to get me hooked on ad free podcasting. So I then fish
out the 4 bucks. So that sounds like, okay. I paid for a
service. I want ad free podcast, and I'm getting that
service. The podcaster is getting paid. So that's something that
hopefully then it's a little less frothy. But the one that gets
(03:40):
me is, wait a minute. What about the advertiser? The
advertiser paid the podcaster money to get his message or her
message into the ears of that audience, and that no longer is
happening. But the podcaster still got paid by the advertiser. And I went,
oh, that's very frothy in my book. If you're saying, oh,
yeah. I'll deliver that message to my audience. And it's weird because in
(04:03):
a way, they did, but this app is now blocking
their intent. And so that's where it's kinda icky.
Totally. If it worked exactly as you described, yes.
I would say, yeah, that's fraud to completely block the ads where the
downloads are being counted, the podcaster is being paid, but the ad
is never being heard. Now, of course, there is the reality of
(04:25):
ad skipping. We all probably skip ads
at some point in our lives, in podcasts, in shows
we watch. We use ad blockers in our browsers and all of this stuff.
We as a society do not like ads and we like to
skip ads if we can and if it's convenient to do so. And
that kind of thing is not always trackable. And I
(04:47):
hope we'll never actually be trackable by the advertisers
or by the podcasters. They don't need to know that information, but it happens.
So if I'm listening in, let's say, Overcast. If I'm listening in
Overcast and I double tap on my Apple AirPods
Pro to skip forward 30 seconds and I've skipped the ad, the
download was still counted, but I never heard the ad.
(05:12):
Usually, I hear enough of the ad to know
what it was about because I've heard the ad enough times or I
can just tell from how they're starting anything like that.
So the product is still in my mind. But, generally, I'm
skipping the ads. Sometimes I completely miss whatever they're talking about, and
the podcaster is still getting paid and the advertiser is still paying even
(05:34):
though I didn't hear the ad at all. And that was simply because
I, the listener, manually skipped over the
ad. So that's going to happen. No matter what technology is
created, that kind of thing is going to happen. And I don't
want this conversation I didn't bring this up to really focus on this one
specific app, but it's the springboard for a bigger conversation that we'll get to in
(05:57):
a moment. But the way that Micah has designed Adblock Podcast,
or whatever it's called by the time you're listening to this, is
to download the media file onto his
server so it shows up as one download inside
of your analytics. Then his system uses
artificial intelligence to discover those ads and skip over
(06:20):
them. It makes a little sound kind of like you hear in Cast O Matic,
I think, does this where if you set Cast O Matic to automatically
skip the first 60 seconds or whatever of an episode, you
hear a kind of bling sound with it. Well,
Adblock Podcast does that too. So you know that an ad was just
skipped. And when it does that, it's pretty
(06:40):
nicely seamless how it does that. It doesn't find every
ad. And you can see once you've followed a
podcast inside of the app, it will start processing all of the episodes
as it's downloading them to his servers looking for the ads and
then skipping over those. You'll start to see how many ads were detected.
It doesn't detect all of them. There have been several podcasts I've tried already
(07:03):
where I know those podcasts have at least 3 ads,
separate ad breaks in them, and none of them are detected. So there
is some tweaking to do. But that aside, if he had
a 1,000 people using his app, then that's only
still one download. So the sponsor,
if an ad was served, the sponsor is paying for
(07:26):
one download. And there is even something
he could do to work around that where some sponsors
will only pay for downloads within certain markets, like only in
the United States or Canada or North America or something like that. And
so if you get a download from Abu Dhabi, you're not going to
be paid for it anyway. And some of these dynamic or programmatic
(07:49):
ad insertion techniques also don't insert ads into those things. That can start to
get tricky to try and auto detect that. Yeah. But if he's downloading
it one time, then it's not exactly ad fraud.
It's ad fraud in the sense of one download, and it's a
bot. That bot probably wouldn't even show up in your analytics
anyway. But let's say and I'll just keep using Jordan Harbinger because
(08:12):
I like his show and he has ads. But what if a bunch of Jordan's
audience starts to use this app? Then instead of having
we'll just keep the math easy. A 1,000 downloads. He has one. He
lost 999 downloads. I guess we'd have to do
the math because 4¢ is basically what? A
$40 CPM? Right. Yeah. And host
(08:34):
rides are not getting $40 CPM Okay. As far as I know. So
on one end, he might be getting paid more
Exactly. Per person. So that's interesting.
Yeah. This has got me thinking. Alright. Yeah. See, that's what I'm saying. It it
gets you thinking about it. And think of it from the listener side
too, where there are all of these podcasts now
(08:56):
that their approach to value for value
is that they they have to take ads for their podcast. Maybe they don't
want to run a business. Maybe they're not able to run a business. Maybe they
can't take the risk because going purely value for
value is a big risk for podcasters because you might
not get enough people, people might not give enough. Anything like that could
(09:17):
happen. It is a big risk. Yes. Life is full of risks. So I'm not
negating that. I'm not saying that that's bad. It's just something to be
aware of. But for some people, advertising might be
the best way for them to monetize with their goals for
their podcast. And some of them then offer an
ad free version for $10 a month, $20 a
(09:39):
month, $5 a month, whatever. And for 1
podcast, that doesn't sound too bad. I think, yeah, I really enjoy
this podcast. Yeah. It's definitely worth $10 a month to be able to
enjoy it without ads. Well, then multiply that times how many
podcasts you have that you listen to that have ads in it. It
starts getting really expensive if you're having to pay $10 a
(10:01):
month for 1 podcast to get that podcast
without ads. Yeah. And maybe that's only a weekly podcast. So
you're only talking about it could be only a dozen ad slots
per month, and you're paying $10 for that. But then think about it
from this perspective of what Micah is doing with
Adblock podcast where you as the listener
(10:24):
are paying $2 toward the podcaster
and, also, then $2 goes toward him or at least that's the pricing right now.
But let's assume that that pricing amount stays. Maybe it's
just multiplied or bigger packages in the future. But let's assume then you
are paying about 8¢ per
ad to skip it. That is totally doable.
(10:47):
Like, for anyone who's struggling with cash flow, and and I'm one of those people
that I have to watch my cash flow very carefully and budget very tightly right
now. I cannot do $5 for every podcast I
listen to in order to get it ad free. But 8¢ per
ad to not hear that ad, I could probably do
that. That might be a total of 5 to $10
(11:08):
per month for all of those podcasts for me.
Right. And I know there's that thought of, well, for the
podcaster then, they're only getting that tiny amount
instead of $10 per person. But here's the
other way to look at it. You're getting a tiny amount that you wouldn't
have gotten from someone otherwise. That was one of the things that I was
(11:32):
like, oh, that's not well thought out is he he mentioned that, like,
how do I pay the first, I think you have to get $50. That's the
threshold to get paid. And when he gets to that, he's gonna Google your
show. And I was like, yeah, that needs that needs a little propping
up a little bit. The only other thing I could think of
that I go, is what if somebody's
(11:54):
right on the edge? You know, you need whatever 10,000 downloads
to have your ad, and so they they get somebody because they have 10,000.
And then for whatever reason, his their audience. So there's a lot of, like, it
just so happens then that that Friday, everybody jumped on this app. Well,
now they don't get the 10,000 downloads. So, yes, they
got maybe paid more, but now they're like, well, we paid for
(12:17):
10,000 downloads. You said you had 10,000, and we only had 8,000.
Well, because 2,000 people are using this. That's once
then again, we're we're not nitpicking. But I was like, that would be one situation
where it'd be like, okay. The good news is you got paid more than you
were than if it was a host. Right? The bad news is this app kinda
puts you under the threshold, and they're not gonna renew because you don't have enough
(12:38):
downloads. Yeah. Or you have to do make goods with the sponsor or
something about or renegotiate. That's I'm just trying to think of, like, what what could
happen here that would be bad? So I thought, well, that might be one if
you're right on the edge. What I would love to see happen with
this is this be turned into more of a
framework where Sam gets to say pretty much to
(12:58):
everything. Oh, yeah. We've already implemented that with Podfans
or True Fans. Sorry, Sam. I beg your forgiveness with True Fans.
Well, what I realized that I kind of get to say frequently
is, oh, yeah. I proposed an idea for that.
So maybe that's my thing as I get to say that all the time, but
I did propose something. It didn't go all that far a while back,
(13:20):
but some kind of open protocol that would allow
podcasters to offer this kind of functionality in
any podcasting 2.0 app. And we are
almost there with the whole streaming satoshis
thing. We are almost there. Now I know the streaming
satoshi stuff is all up in the air kind of right now, and we've talked
(13:41):
about that. Other podcasters have talked about that at the same time that we did.
So, yes, there is some stuff there that's still questionable how exactly
we'll work that out. But it it's looking like we're still gonna be able to
make it work. Think of it like this. What if inside of a podcast
app and in your RSS feed, you could do something where
you indicate your ad spots in the
(14:03):
chapters or some information inside of the RSS
feed. And if someone streams a
certain amount of Satoshis, like a minimum threshold, then they get
to skip the ads. And the podcast app takes care of
then seeing where those ads are, ensuring that the person is
streaming those satoshis and then skips those ads appropriately. I think
(14:25):
that kind of thing I know that when people say, well, if we expose the
data of when the ads are, then people will build systems that will
automatically skip the ads. Yes. Exactly. That's what we
want them to do. But the point is to do it conveniently.
Let's jump back in the not completely early days of the Internet, but
the early days of when the Internet started really getting cool. Back
(14:47):
when Napster was around and BitTorrent was really big and all of this
stuff, and I will admit I was a BitTorrenter. The
reason wasn't because I didn't want to pay. The reason
I and many other people use BitTorrent and stuff, and I did it primarily for
TV shows, which would have been free to watch anyway. But for me, it was
an issue of convenience. I wanted to be able to
(15:08):
watch the TV show on my computer. I didn't have a
TV. For many years. I didn't have a TV at all. I didn't want to
pay for cable Internet. I didn't wanna set up an antenna or anything like
that. I just wanted to watch the show. I didn't care if it had ads
in it. I was fine with that if I could watch it for free. I
just wanted to watch it when I wanted to watch it on my
(15:29):
compute. You can see why I love podcasts so much because of the on
demand idea. The time shifted. Yep. And Apple was not the first
ones to do this, but they made it the easiest. When Itunes came around
and started allowing you to buy a song where you could buy an album for
usually about $10 for an album or a single
track from any album for only 99¢, That made
(15:51):
it really convenient to do, and that
exploded because people wanted the convenience. They did not
necessarily want it free. Yeah. Sure. There were plenty of
people out there who wanted everything for free. Those are the extreme cases,
I think. But there are people out there who just want it
convenient. So if the Podcasting
(16:13):
2.0 apps could build this into their system where, yes,
they read where the ads are. And they totally have the ability to
skip the ads for the people using the app, but
only if the people who are using that app
pay a certain amount of streaming satoshis. And and we're
not talking a whole lot either. You think of just a 100
(16:35):
sats per ad spot? Like, a 100.
That's nothing. Well Yeah. In actual dollars right
now, a 100 sats would be since a 1,000
sats is the cost of Bitcoin in pennies, the cost of Bitcoin, if
we say it's 65,000 right now, if just throwing that number
out there. If it's 65,000, then a 100 sats
(16:57):
would be 6.5¢. 1,000 sats would be
65¢. So a 100 6.5¢. So that is
already 3 times what the podcaster could earn
through a standard $25 CPM where then the ad agency
takes $5 of that at least, if not more.
Yeah. So you've already tripled your profit, and you've made it
(17:19):
more convenient for the audience. But then you could maybe
even put in the app, you could build it in where it
says something like, you can listen to this with the ads completely
free or stream this many satoshis or
unlock it ad free for a 1000 satoshis, listen ad
free. And it's a button you press right at the beginning. It sends the
(17:42):
satoshis right away, unlocks it, and skips all the ads automatically
without having to worry about how many ad slots are there. You could do something
like that where you say, listen to this episode ad free for only this tiny
amount. And you could set that to whatever. And, of course, the ad develop
app developers could make it so the listener could set
whatever amount they want to put in there, like, they decide, no. I wanna give
(18:03):
you 10,000 sats to be able to listen to this ad free.
You build it convenient like that, and I think people will like it.
It reminds me of, which I couldn't believe it. I knew it was coming, but
when it happened, you're like, oh, they're they weren't kidding. Have you
watched any movies on Amazon Prime recently? Because
I went to watch I forget what it was. It might have been
(18:25):
If the, imaginary friends or whatever.
But it was like, your movie will start after these
two advertisements. 1 was for Amazon, which I always find weird. I'm
like, I'm on Amazon already. You don't really need to. You know, but they're
trying to sell me Prime, and I'm like, I'm already on you know? So there
was that, and then it was an ad for T Mobile. And the thing that
(18:47):
drove me nuts is every time I pause the movie, if I went back or,
like, the next day or something like that to watch it oh, it was, the
one about the bomb, Oppenheimer. Okay. Because it took me, like, 4 days to watch
that movie. And every time I went to watch it, it'd be like, you can
watch this ad free. And I'm like, no. I've already paid my dues. I've already
seen the ad, and it was always the same T Mobile ad. So I would
(19:08):
love it if it said, hey. You can watch this ad free by just
clicking this button, and we won't show you the ads. I love that idea.
I expected to see ads, really, and so it surprised me that I have not
seen ads yet. And I'm not upgrading because, like you just said,
I'm already paying for Amazon Prime. A lot. I'm of this
type, and this is why I never subscribe to TV service,
(19:31):
to cable Internet or cable TV. Yeah. Because
my perspective as a senior millennial
is I don't want to pay and still get ads.
Yeah. And then the the option was, well, if you don't like it,
we'll just cancel your prime. And you're like, yeah, but I like free shipping.
(19:51):
And I like in theory, next day delivery or whatever
promising, which I'm noticing more and more. It's like, oops. I know we said we
get it to you tomorrow, but we were just kidding. You'll get it on
Tuesday. You're like, wait. What? You know? So Or you can't even watch the show
then. I remember, like, the early days of Hulu, the
very, very early days. I jumped on Hulu. I don't know how quickly
(20:13):
after it came out, but it was around that same time. And I
started to stop torrenting because Hulu made it convenient.
And then Hulu had this really cool thing where I don't know if they still
do it, but maybe some places still offer this kind of thing where they say
you can either watch this with normal ad breaks or watch
this extended ad upfront and then
(20:34):
have no ads or fewer ads later. And
there's some interesting psychology here, and it comes to play also
in mobile games too. And I heard someone put this really well,
is there are kind of 2 approaches that you can take to
mobile games and advertising in mobile games. And this is relevant to podcasting as
you'll see in a moment. One approach that you can take is,
(20:57):
hey. You're playing this game for free. Now watch this ad. That's a
disruptive thing. It's interrupting my flow. I get
annoyed by the ad. I get annoyed by the game because I'm forced
to sit through this ad that I don't wanna watch because the game
was free, which, yeah, I'm getting a free game, but here I have to have
this ad that I cannot skip. But then the other approach, I love
(21:18):
it when games do this, is they will then say,
would you like to watch an ad and get
500 gold tokens or get a free upgrade or, you know,
speed up your build process or anything like that. So it's like,
oh, you mean there's some value to me
in the game? You enhance the experience for me
(21:41):
if I watch your ad. Now the psychology flips around to the other
side where now I see there's something in it for me too.
So, yeah, I have no problem playing the ad
because I know I'm gonna get some gold tokens from this that I can use
to make the game more fun. So it's rewarding me for the
ads. And I know at this moment, probably Sam Sethi is saying, hey. We do
(22:03):
that with true fans. And, yes, I wanna bring that in because Sam has done
something interesting with true fans where he is offering
the podcaster the opportunity to do a reverse
stream back to the audience. If you
listen to this ad, we'll give you not a
100 or a 1000 satoshis. I think that would be unreasonable depending on how much
(22:26):
you're getting paid for that ad. But maybe it is, like, 10 satoshis. Hey.
We'll give you 10 satoshis. Go ahead. Keep listening to this ad. We'll give you
10 satoshis to listen to this ad. Or this
could be like a little option. We give you 10 satoshis to listen
or pay us a 100 or a 1000 or whatever it is. A 100
satoshis, we'll say. Or pay us a 100 satoshis, and you can skip the ad.
(22:48):
Or something like, let's play this episode. We'll pay you a 100
sat to listen to this episode as it is with the ads or
prepay a 1,000 sats, and you get to hear it with no ads
or whatever amount that you want to enter to pay for this above
a threshold if you want. Yeah. And did you get
Sam's email about his new 2 click fill your wallet thing?
(23:11):
That is looking great because I love Sam's approach with this
that it's making the process easier. Yep. And that is so much
what we need. And that's why when we did that episode that I kept trying
to say, let's not get doom and gloom about this because the challenge
arose, and people are rising to the challenge and discovering
ways to innovate around this. Yeah. I'm waiting to hear
(23:33):
Friday's podcasting 2.0 because I know Oscar at
Fountain has been working on something, and it sounds like I listened to the
episode that they did from some Bitcoin conference. And they
made a great point. They're like, I think for this to really work, instead
of having one place, like get Albi, and then they
end up having so much money go through their system that it might grab the
(23:56):
attention of somebody that if there are multiple people offering
wallets, which is basically what Sam is doing now, you can get a wallet through
true fans that still some monetize into Alby. And I'm like,
okay. Don't understand how you're doing that, but okay. But it
makes Albie not nervous, so I'll you know, yay. Yay, Sam.
Keep on doing what you're doing. But if there are multiple people offering wallets,
(24:17):
then it might not be quite such a a lightning rod of, hey.
What's going on over there kind of thing? So I was glad to hear it.
I haven't played with it yet. I've I've filled up my wallet all the time
because I can just use a good old credit card, and it's $10. And it
literally is, like, 2 clicks. It's like, oh, here it is. And Stripe
remembers my credit card. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad
thing, but it does. And I click a button, and the next thing you know,
(24:40):
I only got $10 worth of Satoshis in my wallet. So it's awesome. And
I really don't mind each app
requiring a different wallet for the audience. I think that makes total
sense, even to the point where that podcast
app is the wallet for the audience member.
So if I'm listening in Podcast Guru,
(25:03):
I give Podcast Guru $5, and then I get
$5 worth of Sats at that time, whatever that's worth, whatever that
conversion rate is. And that gets loaded into my Podcast Guru
wallet that then I can distribute out to whatever apps are out there.
Or maybe I subscribe, so $10 a month to Podcast
Guru and then $9 of that or maybe the full $10 or
(25:25):
whatever automatically gets converted at whatever the current rate is, and I get
those satoshis to then stream out and do all of this cool stuff with it.
I think that's cool. On the podcaster side, I
don't want podcasters to have to mess with multiple wallets because an
audience No. Will generally probably use only 1 or
2 apps. Like, when you think of about the the fringe
(25:47):
audience on the fringe that is who wants to
support through streaming satoshis, they'll probably use
one app for that and then their preferred
their favorite podcast app for all their other listening
unless the podcasting 2.0 app gets so good that it
replaces their normal app, and some of them are getting very close to that. I
(26:09):
know another person that does, and I'm I'm moving this way. When Overcast
came out with a new version, I was like, oh, I wonder what's new. And
I kinda went over there, and I was like, oh, I I forgot how much
I like this app. And I'm very close to having my
non satoshi streaming stuff in overcast
and everything else, no agenda, you know, podcasting 2 point
(26:29):
o, SoundOff podcasts are a couple that I listen to that are doing value for
value. And I was like, maybe I'll just keep those in cast o matic. And
when I feel like it, I'll use that app. And and and then it's really
a matter of, like, how much do you miss that show if you haven't listened
to it for a while because it's not automatically coming up in your playlist. You're
like, oh, wait a minute. I haven't heard from whatever show. And then I go,
(26:50):
that's because it's in the other app. So that's the the weird part of it,
but I I'm very close to doing that. And on the podcaster
side, we do not need multiple wallets. I I want us to
have just one wallet for each podcaster or per podcast.
And I really think the logical place for that to
happen is the podcast hosting providers who
(27:12):
might already have the necessary
protocols in place to be custodians
of money for you, think of Patreon. You know, people
pay Patreon, and then Patreon distributes that money to
you. And that's because
they're not wallets that you can use in other places. I think
(27:34):
that's part of the problem that we're running soon. I know we're kind of
shifting subjects completely here, but it's all connected. I
promise. That's part of the problem that we're running into is that
in thinking along the lines of cryptocurrency, there is the
idea of it's in your wallet. If it's not in your
wallet, if you don't have the keys, Elon Musk said this one time. He
(27:56):
said something like, not your keys, not your wallet. If you
don't have the private key to your wallet, then it's not really your
crypto. I can understand that. I think if we get
out of the mindset of wallets and instead just think
about it as you've accrued this and you get paid once
a month. That happens everywhere, and people do that without trouble.
(28:18):
I do that with my own affiliates. Like for Podgageman, I pay them
at the beginning of each month. They have accrued a certain
amount, and then they get paid that amount the next
month. And that's not a wallet issue. That that
kind of thing works with all kinds of affiliates and systems out there,
and there's no huge legal trouble there. It's
(28:40):
when I, as a service provider, am managing your
wallet for you, that's where things start to get
trickier. We can still use cryptocurrency for this
kind of stuff. But maybe it's something like as soon as it
comes or once a month when it comes into your podcast
hosting provider, into their system, then they send it
(29:02):
out to your specific lightning wallet,
whatever that is. And more and more places now are
starting to offer that you can receive Bitcoin through the
Lightning Network, like Coinbase, for example. I can
transfer Bitcoin over the Lightning Network to my
Coinbase account. I cannot use that Coinbase
(29:24):
address as my Podcasting 2.0 value block
wallet. Lots of lingo there. It doesn't work for
that. But it does work for just receiving a straight transfer.
And that's the kind of thing that podcast hosting providers could do. Or
maybe even the apps do something like that instead of
the providers. But then the apps start having to manage all of these
(29:46):
inboxes and outboxes for all of these podcasts, and that starts to get
become a mess. I think it totally makes sense for the hosting providers to
offer that. And then the apps doing these different
methods could integrate then even with that. I mean,
think of it like that where it comes to this whole ad
blocking thing coming up, bringing it back. See, I promised we'd be there
(30:08):
relevant again. Bringing it back to the ad blocking concept. If
the ads are dynamically inserted, then
there's either something to skip or not something to skip. And
if it's downloaded every time, it could be a different ad, which might
potentially be a different length. But what if the app
could trigger to the podcast hosting provider? This
(30:30):
podcaster has paid to listen to this ad free.
So do not do any dynamic content insertion
of ads. And there need to be the ability for then the
providers to indicate what's an ad and what's an announcement. And the podcast
would have to be honest about that kind of thing too. Like, you use
DCI, dynamic content insertion, with Skoll podcasting, and they're
(30:52):
not all sponsored spots. No. They're all well, there's I'm the sponsor. That's the
fun part. But you do, like, your question of the month? No. Question of the
month. Yeah. That's not that where am I gonna be is not an ad. So,
yeah, it doesn't always have to be an ad. And then I think,
on ask the podcast coach, I'm now using some dynamic stuff. I'm playing with
Buzzsprout. And, my one little it's like 10 seconds.
(31:15):
It's like, hey. Not listening to this live? Go to ask the podcast
coach.com/voice mail and leave us a message, and we'll, you know, we'll answer your
question, you know, when we're live or whatever. So it doesn't always have to
be an ad. It can be and that's just me playing, basically. But it's like,
hey. What would I say to these people? I'm like, well, we need for the
show. So I just had it, and it does. It does that weird little
(31:36):
noise and then Do do do do do do. Yeah. It's like, okay.
Yeah. And imagine, again, for the audience, what
if they have the ability to just pay and skip any of those that are
not announcements? And that's where it does come into what are you
inserting and Yeah. Is there a way that you can
ethically indicate that it should not be skipped?
(31:59):
That starts to get complicated, I know. But there's
great potential here, and that's what I like seeing
where and, you know, we started with this as, oh, no. This
is gonna get someone in legal trouble Right. Into
here's a whole new way of building a value for value
ecosystem that can solve many of these technical problems
(32:22):
that we might be facing with stuff like Alby or other things like that
and helps the podcaster, helps the
audiences, helps the developers because, yes, anytime value is
exchanged through a podcast app, I think it's okay for the podcast
app to take a cut of that. I think that should be
disclosed maybe. I'm not so sure it's necessary to disclose that
(32:44):
to the audience, but definitely disclose that to the
podcaster. Because, like, right now, when you're paying with a credit
card at Chick Fil A, do you know how much they're
paying in merchant fees? Yeah. They don't disclose that to you. It it
doesn't really matter. You just know I'm paying way too much for a chicken
sandwich nowadays. So I don't think
(33:05):
the audience needs to know. As long as the podcaster
knows what the amount was that was given, just like we see that with
PayPal or Stripe payments. We see, oh, yeah. Someone paid $10.
I'm getting $9.50 of that or whatever it works out to
be. I think that's fine. It'll be interesting to see because there's a lot
We're sending things back to the media host and yeah. I mean, if you think
(33:28):
about it, there are newer services that don't have the tech debt
that some of the older hosts do. And so Pod Home
could, you know, maybe try something like that. Because when you're talking about going back
and forth to a media host and as someone who previously worked
at a a media hosting company, I don't know if I wanna deal with support
where it's like, hey, man. I'm down 12 and a half satoshis.
(33:50):
You guys are taking my money. You know? I'm like, do we really wanna
ingest that into support? That could be a nightmare, but it'd be it'd be fun
to try. And and somebody like Podholme could could give it a shot. You never
know. When that's where while this stuff is still a bit
complicated and your grandmother or your aunt or whoever, your mom,
can't do this stuff yet. Yes. There's a hidden your mom joke in
(34:13):
there. That's right. Good old aunt Cheryl. I think that
also means that it's the potential to
not have those people complaining about the 12 and a half satoshis
because they know this is cutting edge, this is
bleeding edge technology stuff. I'm taking a risk doing some
of this stuff. I'm okay kind of experimenting and trying some of this while
(34:35):
it's in beta. There's one other point we should probably talk about when it
comes to advertising. Quit making boring ads.
Yeah. If you don't want people to skip your ads, don't make them so boring.
Tom Webster made that point. It's like, if people are skipping your ads, it's because
they're boring. You know what I mean? And a lot of times it is just
the same old bullet points and things like that. So I'm like, yeah. If you
(34:57):
think about all the, all the ads that we talk about, remember that one, the
Alka Seltzer one and the where's the beef lady? Like, those are all kind of
funny and entertaining versus just like, yeah. Here's the
facts. You know? Life is hard. Better help. You know? Okay. We
get it. It's like so so put some creativity
in there. So And that is the one party
(35:19):
that stands to lose with a value exchange like this, with some kind of
value for value where you get to pay to skip the ads and you're paying
a very small amount but more than the ad itself was actually worth.
Yes. The advertiser, they're losing opportunity. They're
not losing money. They're losing opportunity. But the thing is,
though, do the advertisers actually
(35:41):
want to pay to put their product out there?
And, I mean, I know the basic answer is yes. But what I'm getting at
here is if they're not paying for it,
they're not losing. So, yes, it means let
let's just take an example. Since you mentioned Jordan Harbinger, a very popular podcaster,
if advertisers are now
(36:04):
paying less because they're getting to a smaller
portion of his audience because some of his audience, let's say, 10% of his
audience moves over. So the advertiser is getting 10%
fewer impressions. So they're paying 10% less.
Are they really losing? Not really. They're they're paying less.
They're getting fewer impressions. Yes. Right. But
(36:28):
fewer impressions that they're not paying for. Poor.
So it's not like they're being ripped off. They're not gaining from the
system, but they're also not losing.
They're just not reaching as many people, but they
might not be reaching those people anyway because those people
are skipping ads probably. Yeah. It it depends
(36:50):
for me if I'm riding my bike or something where
my hands are tied driving. I will not skip ads if I'm driving because
I don't wanna have to reach up on the dashboard or something like that. But
if it's just me walking or I'm sitting here at my desk and the phone
is right there, oh, yeah. We're we're as soon as then especially
depending on some of those people go for, you know, 5, 10 minutes of
(37:11):
ads, and you're like, yeah. Skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. Nope.
Skip. One more. Skip. Skip. Skip. Skip.
And skip. Okay. Yes. Okay. And we're back, and then it's them going, hey. Thanks
so much for listening. That's the end of the show. And you're like, jeez, Louise.
Yeah. And it's probably also not exactly that the advertisers are
thinking, oh, we have got to get Casper mattresses
(37:32):
on Jordan Harbinger. So it's a perfect fit. His
audience is the perfect audience of all of the podcasts out there.
We have to advertise our mattresses to his audience.
They're not really thinking like that. They're just thinking many of these
big advertisers on the big podcast are very general
needs sort of thing. Like, everybody needs a mattress. Everybody
(37:56):
needs help. Everybody you know, all of this stuff is very general.
Yes. There are some of the cases where it is a more niche advertiser
wants to advertise, and you've probably had this on your podcast day if I've had
some advertisers come after me month after month after month
begging to support and sponsor my some of my
podcasts, and I just don't like having ads. But and there there are
(38:18):
cases for that, and certainly, we can find ways to work around
that, I think. But in general, that's not happening a whole lot.
It's usually these general purpose
advertisers going after general audiences but
engaged audiences. But they're not thinking we have
to get that podcast for our very general product. It's
(38:41):
only Jordan's audience that sleeps. Right. We we
need to get it on his show. Nobody else needs pillows and
mattresses. Well, the reason I bring up Jordan too, if you want a good example
of somebody who has, like, 3 ad breaks a show, but, a, he
always makes them somewhat lighthearted, even his teas before he
goes in. A lot of his ad reads, he'll work in a story about his
(39:04):
kid or his wife. So it's not just here are the 5
facts about this pillow. They make you wanna buy it. No. It's they're a
little more entertaining. And he gets to them. It's he hits it,
quits it, next one. And then because there's
value because I listen a lot to, feedback Friday.
I'm willing to sit through ads because I know there's another
(39:26):
outrageous story on the other side of this ad, and there's always 2. He doesn't
do more than 2. That's you start doing 3. I'm like, okay. Now I
gotta find the skip button. But 2, I'm like, oh, I'll hang with that
with Jordan. Not everybody else, but Jordan, I'll hang for 2. And I love that
you brought that up because that's another point that was on my mind is that
this whole idea of potentially being able to pay to skip ads,
(39:48):
it is also relative to the podcast because some podcasts, you want
to hear the ads. Yeah. Some podcasts, you
so desperately do not want to hear
ads interrupted because maybe it is a super gripping
story. We're just like, why is going to happen? And
now do you need psychological help?
(40:11):
Yes. Because you're interrupting my story. Or, you
know, some of these dynamic things might insert the
ad in such a horrible place.
Maybe I don't know if any of them do this, but it could be, like,
maybe it's interrupting the music or interrupting the line of dialogue in a
story or interrupting the scene instead of being between scenes in the
(40:32):
story. Or maybe there are some of those fall asleep kind of
podcasts where you want to drift to sleep with a
nice, peaceful, melatonin,
melodramatic, monotone, all of that,
just calm. And then Friday, Friday, Friday.
And, you know 15:15 minutes will save you 15% because
(40:55):
Who do I have to pay to never hear this ad again while I'm trying
to fall asleep? That's where it might become far
more valuable to an audience to for this
particular podcast, I'll I'll pay 10,000 satoshis to not
hear an ad at all while I'm listening to this podcast
because I don't want my listening to be interrupted at
(41:17):
all. I even make my family pay to interrupt me if I'm listening to the
podcast. It could be to that point. And that's where
the idea of value for value is what is it worth to you?
You set that value, put that value in numbers and
give that back. So what is it worth to you
to not hear an ad? What can you give? What do
(41:41):
you want to give? Like, for me, I can't
give what it's worth to me at times.
But I would love the ability to give something
to not hear the ads, certainly more than the ad is worth to the podcaster.
I'd love to give a podcaster 4¢ to skip
an ad they're being paid only 2¢ for. I'd love to do
(42:03):
that, and I could totally afford that. And then someday, if I'm
able to do more, then I could say, hey. I'll give you a dollar to
not hear an ad. I'd skip that for a dollar.
Exactly. We did get one boostagram
from, Brian to relax mail. He gave us a
(42:23):
row of ducks, 2222. Says, I I guess, we had said
something about we didn't get any boostigrams. And he says, well, we can't have y'all
feeling unloved. So thank you, Brian. We appreciate that.
And, if you'd like to send us a boost, just go to those
one of those awesome new podcast apps. We also have buttons, I believe, out
on our website if you wanna send it that way. Of course, you can always
(42:45):
check out Podgagement. You can check out the School of Podcasting. That's another way to
support the show. But that's gonna do it for episode 48,
and I wanna check here. It's been going now,
45 minutes. It's still kinda doing the little circle
thingy on the app. So I'm looking at this what is the
Adblock podcast? And I download Jordan shows. It says one ad
(43:07):
detected, and it's just spinning. So I don't know if that's
a good thing or a bad thing, but it's it seems like it's still processing.
You know, a funny thing about that is Jordan actually reached out to me
recently and asked, hey. I figured if everyone you might know of a
way to do this. Is there a way to easily figure out how many
hours of content that I've put out in my podcast? I
(43:30):
thought, well, yeah, there probably is. So I threw together really quickly a
script because he uses the Itunes colon duration tag
in his podcast that has the duration for each episode. It was really easy to
make a script that went through his entire RSS feed, pulled that all
together, and the number was something like, I think,
around 1200 hours of content. Yeah. I think it was
(43:51):
11:57, 1157
hours point 3 or something like that of content.
So inside of Adblock podcast, since you put Jordan
Harbinger's show in there, I think it's still processing
a 1000 hours of content because it seems to go through the
entire RSS feed looking for ads
(44:14):
to be able to skip and and to mark as
ads. So, certainly, there's some opportunity for some optimization there
and some opportunity, maybe even some crowdsourcing. Yeah. This is
episode 1024. So he has a few to to go through
then. That would make sense. Excellent. But, thanks again for
listening. Thanks for those who are, streaming. And, that's gonna do it for
(44:36):
episode 48 of the future of podcasting. Keep boosting and keep
podcasting.
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