Rimla Akhtar, Wendy Taylor, Tess Howard & Holly Bradshaw explore the impact of women's sport clothing

Episode Transcript
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Sue Anstiss (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers podcast,
where we hear from thetrailblazers in women's sport.
I'm your host, sue Anstis, andbefore I get started, I'd just
like to thank Sport England whokindly support the Game Changers
through a national lotteryaward.
We've got a slightly differentformat for this episode of the

(00:27):
podcast, as we're talking to apanel of game changers around a
specific topic.
There's been much talk aboutwomen's sports kits recently,
from issues around Wimbledonwhites girls forced to wear
skorts for PE and women notallowed to wear the hijab to
play sport through to theextremes of female athletes

(00:47):
objectified and sexualised withrevealing clothing, high cut
leotards and bikini bottoms.
I was thrilled to welcome myexpert panel for this session,
where we explored Sports Kit forWomen and Girls addressing
sports kit for women and girls,addressing some of the
challenges and providingpractical recommendations that

(01:09):
will enable more choice for morewomen.
My guests for this podcast wererimla atkar, former chair of the
muslim women's sportsfoundation and the first muslim
woman to sit on the FootballAssociation's council.
Rimla was also awarded an OBEfor her contribution to equality
and diversity in sport.

(01:30):
Wendy Taylor, who leads ongirls' work at the Youth Sport
Trust, including the hugelysuccessful Girls Active
initiative which is delivered inpartnership with this Girl Can
and Women in Sport Tess Howard,a GB hockey player whose team
won gold at the CommonwealthGames this summer.

(01:51):
Tess is a real sports kitactivist, helping to change the
guidelines to make sports policymore inclusive.
And Holly Bradshaw, an Olympianwho's been very publicly
outspoken about the challengesfacing female track and field
athletes.
To kick off our conversation, Iasked each of my guests why

(02:14):
this subject was one they wereso passionate about.

Wendy Taylor (02:23):
Starting with Wendy Taylor.
First and foremost I'm a mum ofa 12-year-old daughter so I
kind of see and feel and kind ofa living that experience with
her.
Secondly, I'm a former PEteacher myself so again, I've
been in school and had thosedirect experiences working with
girls and more recently,obviously sort of the last 19
years, worked at New Sport Trust, really looking working hard to

(02:43):
look at how we engage girls andmaximise their participation
and ensure that they have avoice in PE and school sport and
kit is one of those issues thatcould go a long way to
addressing some of thosechallenges that we experience
and girls experience.

Fabulous.
Thank you.
Thanks, wendy and Tess, interms of your involvement, your
you know why the fire is burningin you.
In terms of this topic area.

Tess Howard (03:06):
I've been fascinated by how barriers are
created for girls in sport onthe basis of sex, on the basis
of religion and gender, and Ithink if we can create a space
where there aren't thosebarriers to for girls to be able
to experience the purpose ofsport, then that is the world
that I want to live in.

(03:26):
That's why I'm so passionateabout it.
My dissertation was schoolsports uniforms practical,
professional, patriarchal andunfortunately it's the latter
that so often comes up and Iwant to live in a world where
they are practical and theyencourage confidence and comfort
in sport for girls so that theycan experience the purpose of
sport.
Thank, you.

Thanks, Tess Holly.
In terms of your involvement, Iknow it's been quite a personal
relationship yourself in termsof kit and the response to kit,
so can you share some of thatwith us?

Holly Bradshaw (03:56):
Yeah, so as a young athlete 18, 19 years old I
faced a lot of abuse onlineabout the way I looked.
Typically, in athletics you wearcrop top with shorts, crop top
and knickers and I was verycomfortable at that age wearing
that.
But there's no shine away from.
I did have a bit of puppy fatand you know that was OK for me
but not for a lot of otherpeople who said I was

(04:16):
unattractive, it wasunprofessional and really,
really, you know, abused me onsocial media and that's created,
I think, probably a lifelongkind of issue for me mentally
and it only really has come uprecently in the last couple, you
know, two, three years, where Ilike to cover my body up
because of the abuse I face.
I'm very self-conscious.
There's been times in my careerover the last couple of years

(04:39):
I've, you know, having to go outmy way, try and find, try and,
you know, know, kick up a fussto get an outfit that allows me
to feel comfortable and I'm ableto cover it up.
And that's why I'm verypassionate about it, because if
I'm feeling like this, how manyother girls are out there
feeling the same thing?

thank you, thank you so much for that and I'm
sure we'll come on to talk moreabout kind of specific instances
too.
And then Rimla, from yourperspective and again we've
spoken, you were a fabulousguest in a previous episode of
the game changes but perhapsshare from your perspective why
this matters so much yeah, aseveryone else has said, this is
so personal.

Rimla Ahktar (05:11):
I think, first and foremost, you know, growing up
playing sports and I thinksomeone who chose to cover you
know, as I hit my teenage yearsfor religious reasons, it was
something that I had to navigateyou wearing sweat tops and
tracksuit bottoms whilsteveryone else is in skirts and
vests, and it's it's so personal, but I think, throughout my
time with the Muslim Women'sSport Foundation, actually

(05:33):
really not just focusing onMuslim women, but but the
principle of the fact that womenshould be able to choose what
they want to wear when they'replaying sports, that principle
was something that I've kind ofcarried with me throughout my
time.
I mean, I'm sure we'll touch onthis a little bit later, but
kind of fighting the hijab bansthat sports governing bodies,
international federations, haveput into place, that have

(05:54):
stopped women from participating.
That injustice, that sense ofinjustice that comes with it, is
really real and therefore it isa fire that burns within me.
It's it's something I'm evenright now working on, so it's a
shame that.
You know, I've been in the kindof sports administration side
of things for the last 15 yearsand we're still dealing with the

(06:15):
same issues.

Yeah, thank you, and I noticed you said bans
there that it's not the one wetalk a bit about the football
ban but actually it's progressedthrough and we'll come on to
that in a moment and there's somuch to go at, but let's
initially we can start with totalk about schools, I guess
where it all begins in terms ofschools and and the kit and
clothing that girls are wearingin schools for PE.
So I wonder, wendy, can I startwith you, because that's very

(06:39):
much your specialist subject,isn't it?
But are things changing?
And I guess I'm also keen toknow if girls are given choice.
If they had the choice, what doyou feel they would wear and
what else should we beconsidering when it comes to
clothing for PE?

I guess the starting point is, given the the
vast number of schools thatthere are in, in, you know,
within the education system,it's a really mixed picture and
there certainly is notconsistency across the whole of
the landscape.
What I I hear is, you knowregularly, is examples of both
extremes.
You know, actually, whenschools have done that really
well, what that looks like.
It looks like, you know, girlsare at the centre of that

(07:14):
decision-making, they'reconsulted, they're empowered to,
you know, to make choices andreally have input into what they
would like to wear during PE.
And that there's an element ofbecause I think that for us all,
you know, we could all choosean outfit to wear of an evening
and I'm sure we would all choosesomething different, but
ultimately, if we want tomaximise participation for all

(07:36):
our young people, that reallyhas to be, you know, choice and
focused on feeling comfortable,and that's going to really
increase engagement, enjoyment,you know, and remove some of
those barriers.
So you know, we've got exampleswhere, you know schools will
have a range of items that couldbe a sport, it could be
leggings, it could be joggers,it could be shorts, and all of

(07:57):
those are entirely appropriatefor girls to be able to
participate fully in the waythey want to.
I think when we begin to hitchallenges and you know, some of
that we've absolutely seen onreturn from COVID when schools
have come back, you know, youngpeople come back into schools
actually real reluctance fromgirls to go back into the
changing rooms to get changebecause they feel on show, they

(08:19):
feel embarrassed, they'reworried about you know a variety
of issues, and kit exacerbatesthose problems.
So I think really focusing onyoung people and their needs and
having choices is integral.

I think choice is so important in all these areas
and giving girls the chance toactively contribute to that
decision making.
Tess, I guess what are yourfindings in terms of both the
dissertation and the work thatyou've done since in hockey?

Yeah, my dissertation ended with
understanding what girls wanted.
I asked over 400 women whatwould they have wanted at school
and it all came down to choice.
But everyone is different.
But what was really interestingis that it's like realistic
choice, because saying that youhave both boys shorts and skorts
, well, girls aren't going towant to choose the boys shorts

(09:03):
because that is not a genuinechoice.
So I think what we're seeing isthat there needs to be a
greater spectrum of items onoffer, but also from like, from
suppliers that will befinancially viable.
So often what you get is, ingeneral, school uniform as well,
is girls shirts being speciallytailor made by a school

(09:27):
provider and boys shirts being afraction of the cost from a
wider supplier.
So there are all thesedifferent layers, but it comes
down to realistic choice, and Ihad a little experiment at
Marlowe Hockey Club last yearwhere I coached with the under
12 girls.
I said to them our first thingis you can wear whatever you
want.
You don't have to wear Marlowkit, which is a fitted shirt and

(09:51):
a skort.
I said you can come in whateveryou like.
Some girls were like can I comein my pajamas?
I was like do you know what Ifthat makes you play?
Well, come in your pajamas.
So they came in all differentoutfits.
Outfits, and, to be good, forthe first week people were still
sort of wearing the normal kitand, as they saw other people
break the mold and wear, youknow, jazzy shorts or leggings,

(10:12):
then more and more started tofeel comfortable, to be able to
make those decisions forthemselves, and what I saw was
girls feeling autonomous overtheir bodies, over how, how they
looked, and then it enabledthem to feel more confident on
the pitch.
So that was like a littlesocial experiment that I thought
was quite successful in givingagency to the young girls.

(10:34):
So when I think of schooluniforms in schools now, I think
of what is rigorously inclusive, what is going to make those
girls feel like they have choice, and that is when you have
genuine choice.

I love that rigorously inclusive.
That'll be a catchphrase we'llbe using later.
I like that very much, tess.
Thank you, and I think that's achallenge, isn't?
It is around cost anduniformity and schools wanting
that regularity.
What have you found, holly, interms of kind of wider sporting
kit for girls, especially atthat school age, and the
teenagers?

I don't know whether it was to do with social
media, but at school, you know,we wore shorts and a t-shirt.
I didn't think too much about it, but for me now there's so many
, I see so many people in thegym wearing knee length shorts.
They wear leggings, threequarter leggingsquarter leggings
, and even myself, if I'm havinga self-conscious day and I
usually wear baggy shorts I'llput leggings on because I don't

(11:30):
want to have my whole leg out,because I'm feeling a bit iffy
about my body and I feel likejust having, like everyone said,
the choices at school will justmake people feel comfortable,
and I can I can think back to acouple of my friends at school
who absolutely hated PE.
They did not want to wearshorts, so they would just
pretend they've forgotten theirkit or whatever not to do it,
and that's such a huge barrierthat doesn't need to be there to

(11:53):
get people active.
And I think the more choices wecan have and, like you say,
girl shorts, not just boy shorts, so they kind of feel like they
have autonomy over their bodyis super important, and you see
it at the gym and if we couldjust spill that over into
schools.

I think it would make a massive, massive
difference.
Thank you and Rimla.
In terms of schools and Britishschools at the moment, what's
the situation there for girlsthat may want to remain covered
in terms of their religiousbeliefs?

Yeah, I think it depends.
It does vary from school toschool, isn't it?
Um, as wendy was saying earlieron, and I think those that are
kind of that, they recognizethey have a majority, particular
faith or they have a particularethnic majority in in their
school.
They are very eager and keen totry and cater to the needs of
those women and girls.
And, um, so you do get someplaces where absolutely you know

(12:44):
the kit is, you know, colorswise, or a general sense of the
principles of what you need tobe wearing.
That might be dictated, butactually what it physically
looks like, that isn't dictated.
You know, there's a, there's aguideline in terms of if you
choose to cover, then then theseare the options that you have
and I think you can still havethat uniformity.
You just have it in in aslightly different way and it's

(13:05):
possible.
That's what it shows and I thinkjust outside of the school
space it's the same with sportsand I think the point that Tess
was making around the girls,seeing other girls start to wear
clothes that are different,that are, you know, reflective
of themselves, and thatencouraging them to also take
that step forward is reallyimportant.
So we've seen as more and morewomen from different backgrounds

(13:29):
are going into different sportsand showing, for example,
wearing the hijab or covering,or wearing shorts instead of a
skirt or wherever it might be.
That's encouraging more girlsto also say this is a sport for
me, this is something I can doand it's so.
So it's the same for the girlsthat are at school, and actually
the schools should learn fromthe sports being played at the
elite level in terms of what'spossible there, and similarly

(13:52):
for other women and girls tocome into the elite sports space
, it's just as important.

Thank you, imran.
I do feel, wendy.
I feel like it's a long timewe've been having this
conversation.
Some of us have been around avery long time today, but in
terms of some of the nikeresearch, it might, it must be
over a decade, 15 years ago ofof knowing that girls want to
wear something different insport.
So what is it that preventsthat?
Is it the?
Is it the money?
That it's too expensive tooffer different options?
Is it the need to have girlsconform, because that's what

(14:19):
schools do in terms of uniformpolicy and the color of your
hair?
And what do you think is thebiggest barrier that stops it
being something that it seems soobvious that we know it could.

It should be available you know I think for
some schools there just doesn'tseem to be that issue.
You know.
So remember just talking abouthijabs, and you know there's a
school in Manchester recently wewere saying that actually
they've supported the school bybuying a big stock of hijabs and
then the girls are buying themback at cost, so they're
covering costs, but it's reallyreducing that barrier.

(14:49):
It's made a massive impact interms of how girls feel coming
to PE.
Schools are, I guess, trying towalk that line between managing
cost of living, increasedprices.

(15:11):
There's also guidance from DfEnow that's, you know, recently
been introduced that sets outthe expectations around.
You know uniform, but actuallythat it shouldn't be particular
brands, you know so it doesn'tkind of further deter students
and actually there is a bit moreflexibility.
But you know, from ourperspective, you know that when
we speak to schools and theycertainly overwhelmingly see the
kind of the views of girls,that's something that then you
know, once they open thatconversation, they then are in a
position where they want towork with the girls and actually

(15:31):
you know hearing their voicesand acting upon that to work
with them.
But, as Tess has shared, youknow some of the practicalities
around brands or, you know, sortof making it financially viable
.
I guess to offer a range is achallenge but I think it's just,
you know, for us ourresponsibility to kind of keep
moving that conversation forward, keep raising that and around

(15:53):
the potential of the impact thatit will have on their subject
and engagement of their learners.
And you know the lifelongbenefits that hopefully we all
want to see for girls.

Tess, could you go ahead there?

Oh, sorry, I just wanted to add.
I think a lot of the issue inprivate schools is around
tradition.
It's quite funny because when Iwas doing my dissertation I was
just like so angry at so manydifferent stages.
But the main stage was when Iread the school guidance for
uniforms, which says schoolsmust not discriminate based on
sex, race, religion, gender, asper the UK Equalities Act 2010.
Directly beneath it saysschools can decide if girls can

(16:29):
wear trousers or not.
And that was just like sorry,is that contradiction?
Or is that contradiction?
There is still this pervasivenarrative within schools that is
tradition is fine and so itdoesn't matter what really the
impact of that is.
So my school I've been workingwith I went to private school in

(16:50):
Cambridge and they've justintroduced girls shorts into
their curriculum and that ischanging a traditional school's
viewpoint.
But hopefully what will happenis that as that school plays
against other schools, they willsee that it's actually not that
big of a deal when a girl wearsshorts.
They will see that it'sactually not that big of a deal
when a girl wears shorts.

(17:10):
Adjacent to that is howpolicies can support.
So what we've just done inEngland hockey this year is
change the legislation so thatit doesn't matter what girl or
boy wears, the whole teamdoesn't have to wear the same
thing.
So that is a huge change.
So hopefully I'll be one of thefirst Premier League hockey
players to wear shorts thoughthe shorts have not been made
yet, so at least the policyallows it to now but that means

(17:31):
that there is genuine choice,and that would come back to
genuine choices when you canwear whatever in your team and
still be fine.
So I just wanted to add that toWendy.

Absolutely.
Is that at all levels?
Do we see that internationallyin terms of that choice?

The conversations are happening now with special
sports, who responded reallywell to our asking.
So myself and Anna Tobin, partof the England hockey team, went
to Adidas and said first of all, we need a better tank tops
because they were calledcompression tank tops.
That's the most enjoyable thingto wear compression tank top.
So we've changed our tops andwe're on a crusade to go and try

(18:08):
and change the sport rules.
So watch this space, I guess.

Fascinating you heard it here first Fascinating.
Thank you, tess, for that.
I'd like to move on, if I can,to talk a little bit about white
clothing in sport, and again,it's something that I do feel in
the last few months last yearalmost it's been talked about
more than perhaps it has in thepast.
And again, coming back to thattaboo of not talking about the

(18:33):
one thing that you know affectsalmost half the population, but
periods, menstruation uh, wedon't discuss it.
But there was much more talkaround wimbledon this year in
terms of the women playing inwhites and I was interested in
watching the rugby world cup outin new zealand I wasn't in new
zealand but watching ontelevision weekend and that so
many of the home nations so theScottish and the English team
were playing in white shorts.
So those rugby girls playing inwhite shorts at a national

(18:53):
level and how that then impactsgirls playing in team sports in
white shorts.
So I'm just wondering in termsof your thoughts on how much of
an issue you feel that is forgirls.
I don't know who would like totake that one first, but just
kind of interested to have yourthoughts on I feel it's an issue
.
A mother of three daughters,but how much of an issue you

(19:14):
feel that is in terms of anotherbarrier to girls taking part in
sport.
Wendy, did you want to jump inthere?

You waved your hand, that's okay, I mean, I
guess kind of our ongoingresearch that we do each year
annually through Girls Active.
So just looking at the statsfrom the past few years in terms
of girls' participation and thebarriers they tell us, so
periods has gone from being thesort of third barrier to the
biggest barrier to theirparticipation.
So of the 6,000 plus girls thatwe surveyed this last academic

(19:42):
year, 39% of them told us thatyou know when they have their
period that stops themparticipating.
So we know how much of an issuethat that is for girls in the
PE space.
I think if you then overlaythat with having to wear a kit
that you feel on showuncomfortable, you know among
the top concerns were concernsabout leaking, having low

(20:03):
self-confidence,self-consciousness in the
changing rooms and and the worrythat others will know when
they're on their period.

So it's a huge issue and why has that gone up,
do you think?
Why has it gone from third tothe most prevalent?

I mean, I think I think there's a there's that
increasing awareness of, youknow, feeling self-conscious in
your body among teens.
I think probably covid hasn'thelped um that situation as well
.
And you know general happinessaround how girls feel in, you
know, with the way that theirbody looks has also kind of, you
know, sort of declined to only33% of girls told us that

(20:37):
they're happy with the way theirbody looks.
That's 67%.
That aren't that's massive.
And you know kit is one of thoseone aspect that can really make
that difference.
And you know, when we one ofthose one aspects that can
really make that difference.
And you know, when we ask girlswhat is the top thing that
actually schools could do tohelp make a difference better
options for PE kit was thenumber one thing.
It does tell us we've still gota long way to go.

(20:58):
So whilst I'm excited because Ican hear, you know, lots of
positive change from schools andthe way that they're working
with girls through that, we'vegot a long way to go into in
terms of getting thatconsistency across schools and
in terms of whites, tess, Idon't know was that, was that
something that was flagged atall, or is that different in
terms of the research thatyou've done, or it was a huge
part of it.

It was huge part of it.
Yeah, one part of the researchwas around what made girls drop
out of sport and, as Wendy said,whites is a huge issue.
We actually had an internalteam survey sent out last year
before the Euros GB hockey teamsurvey that said would you like
to wear a white skort at theEuros?
We chose red and blue skorts,which was a really good show of

(21:43):
what democracy can do.

I'm half keeping an eye on questions in my q a, if
I can.
But one interesting point thereis who makes a decision in
schools about what's worn?
Is that completely down toschool or they have their
autonomy to choose what goeswith p, or is that?
Yeah, I think um, from.

You know, certainly in terms of dfe
guidance, schools don't have tohave a uniform, you know, a
school uniform they don't haveto have a PE kit.
However, it is definitelystrongly advocated in terms of
the DfE guidance that I wasreading.
So you know, and I think thereis also a lot that schools want
to do by having a uniform interms of creating the sense of

(22:19):
belonging, having a school ethos, you know, to also reduce some
of those experiences that maybesingle out individuals.
So actually having that senseof community is important and
obviously, therefore, pe kit isnaturally an extension of that.
But you know governors andschool leaders, along with you
know, heads of department, Iguess, would have that ultimate

(22:39):
say in terms of who makes thatdecision.
But you know, equally governors, parents, have a voice within
that, as do young people,hopefully increasingly from our
perspective, Excellent, yesindeed.

And another comment made in terms of athletes as
activists themselves and showingthe way, and I'm always
conscious that some athletesjust want to be brilliant
athletes.
We don't all need to inspirethe next generation.
It's fabulous that femaleathletes do, but they should
also be able to just be fabulousathletes.
Female athletes do, but theyshould also be able to just be
fabulous athletes.
But, holly, I wonder from yourperspective?
Clearly you have been veryvocal and outspoken around

(23:12):
issues around kids.
It's obviously got easierbecause you're older and I guess
because you're an experiencedathlete not older, you're an
experienced athlete but alsothat you're in a sport where
there isn't selection.
So you're in a sport where youjump really high and therefore
you know you've got yourqualification, haven't you,
rather than being?
We talked a little bit earlieraround some of the girls in some
of the team sports or rugby orfootball, where they might not

(23:33):
want to say I'm not comfortablein white shorts, because it
might impact how people feeltowards them too.

Yeah, definitely , and I think there is still
that in athletics, If you lookat the like our WCP selection it
is, there isn't just a criteriaof if you jump this you get on.
That very much is the case forthe Olympics and the world and
whatever.
But in in many scenarios theremight be four or five athletes

(24:00):
that can only go down to threespots.
So I definitely feel like a lotof athletes are scared to talk
out or say their own opinions,not only through the selection
but also I don't know whetherI'm sure it's like this in a lot
of sports, but as soon as themedia, you know, cotton onto
anything, um, these reallynegative, bad headlines come out
.
And I've spoken to a lot of myfriends in the sport and they're
almost like at their wits endwith it and they're like I'm

(24:22):
just not going to say anythingbecause they're all going to
take it out of context and I'mgoing to become the bad guy.
And it's definitely happened tome.
When I spoke out originallyabout the kit, there was quite a
few negative headlines that Itwisted my words and that's
definitely not the angle that Iwas coming from.
So I definitely feel like thereis a barrier, but for me, I've
kind of achieved everything Iwould have ever dreamt of in

(24:43):
this sport.
So now I kind of feel like I'mthe flag bearer for raising
these issues and I'm going totalk out and and share my
opinions because I really,really want to help others and I
I just really don't want to seeyoung athletes go through what
I did and drop out of the sport,because it's way more likely
these days with you know thenegativity around social media,

(25:04):
so I just feel very passionateabout that.

Thank you, and and I know, reminald, when you
opened there you were talkingabout choice.
That, ultimately, that's thething, isn't it?
I think I remember seeing someof the a little bit of the
backlash you got Holly and Ifelt a bit guilty because that
was our conversation in theTelegraph, wasn't it?

But some of that negativity but ultimately it's
great that we are.
But I find it incredible thatwe are because I mean, even
Wendy's talked about there interms of the guidelines that are
there.
They're guidelines, right.
They're not rules that you musthave this and you must have

(25:41):
that, and it's the same, really,for international federations
that dictate the rules.
You kind of in the elite side ofthings Tess talks about
tradition, we're talking abouthistoric stuff that's been there
and you know, it's that sensethat I've always had in the sort
of sports industry inparticular where you've got
people just saying you knowyou'll ask a question about

(26:02):
anything, whether it's kids orsomething else, oh, but we've
always done it this way and kindof go, well, well, why, why?
What is the reason for this?
Is there a legitimate reasonfor us doing it this way?
Is there a legitimate reasonfor us having this particular
kit?
Um, and if you had a blanksheet of paper, is this what
you'd do if you knew no otherway?
Is this what you would do?

(26:23):
Um, and I don't, I just don'tthink we would, whether it's to
do with whites.
You know, you mentioned Maggie,for example, coming into Lewis
and kind of one of the firstthings she did was to say well,
we're renewing the kit, get ridof the white shorts.
It's as simple as that.
The only areas that need to beconsidered are fairness and
safety, really from a sportingperspective, and I think about

(26:46):
swimming, for example.
So so part of my work with kindof kit has been around burkinis
and obviously I forget whichgames it was, but there was I
think it was the Sydney ones,maybe 2000, 2004, something like
that where you had swimmerswearing full body streamlined
kit and that was giving themcompetitive advantage, right.

(27:07):
So that's where Fina came inand said right, we're going to
limit how much of your body youcan cover.
So I get that from acompetitiveness perspective and
a fairness perspective, but thebroccini is not going to give
you a competitive advantage andit's going to drag, if anything.
So you know there are ways tocome around this.
So one of the things that Iworked on with Swim England, as

(27:27):
they're now known um, wasamateur swimming competitions
and allowing the burkini intothere, because we had, at the
Muslim Women's Sport Foundation,we had women and their girls
and their parents coming to usand saying I would love to
compete, I would love to go onthat pathway of competition, but
I can't, because you know, theperson that's laying down the
rules is telling me I can't.

(27:48):
So we had, we changed that.
But actually trying to get thatto FINA level is even more.
It's just difficult becausepeople don't want to to even go
there to consider it becausebecause of their own kind of
preconceptions and theirhistoric kind of way of looking
at things and this is where Ithink the manufacturers of kits
come in and they're so important.

(28:10):
So with FINA, can you imagineif Speedo and other kind of Nike
and others come forward and say, well, actually we've done some
R&D, we found something thatcovers someone's body if they
choose to cover, but doesn'tgive them competitive advantage
over what you're saying isallowed?
If that were possible, then whywould FINA say no?

(28:32):
And the same with Nike and theEuros this summer.
You know the white shorts werealready there.
Nike had decided that the whiteshorts were what the women's
team were going to wear and theplayers like Beth Mead and
others were saying, well,actually we don't want to wear
these, but we're going to haveto wait now until the next set.
And there they are for thistournament that's going to go

(28:53):
across the world.
They've won the tournament andthey're they're not feeling
comfortable within themselvesbecause they're worried about
wearing white shorts.
It just it isn't right.
We shouldn't have to talk aboutthese things.
We should just be acting it'sso true, isn't?

there's a couple of questions coming in about
whether it comes from the top orwhether it is about people
driving change from the bottom,and I think it's interesting.
I had a fantastic email from awoman who was a chair of a rugby
club local rugby club and wastrying to get the shorts changed
.
The girls didn't want to playin white shorts and someone on
the council of her club wassaying well, the England, you
know, the Red Roses play inwhite shorts.
If it's good enough for them,it's good enough.

(29:26):
So that was like the argumentused against her.
Her it's like if it's goodenough for the national team,
it's good enough for our girls,and I'm really pleased and proud
of how hard she worked tochange it and she did change it
in the end.
So that's such a key point,isn't it?
When we then see those topinternational teams playing in
kit, it's hard then forgrassroots sports to to not feel
they have to emulate and follow.

(29:47):
That, too is a lovely commentfrom Keith Lewis in the Q&A too,
which is I just want to followup with another point about
rugby, about how good andinclusive rugby has been in
terms of allowing the hijab andwomen to play and people to play
in all kinds of kits.
So what do you think in termsof the FIFA ban on the hijab, as
was, and now in other sportstoo?

(30:08):
Where's the difference?
Why is it okay in rugby, butit's not okay?
Is there still a ban inbasketball there?
Where's the difference?
Why is it okay in rugby?

but it's not okay.
Is there still a ban inbasketball?
There certainly was, wasn'tthere, there was.
So fifa were the first ones tooutright ban the hijab and
anyone who just had gear in insport.
But obviously the hijab tooksort of the headlines, as it
were, because it had such animmediate impact on on millions
of girls across the world.
But as soon as fifa we managedto overturn the ban there and
all that hard work over sevenyears to to get that overturned,

(30:36):
fiba in their intelligence, alltheir intelligence, decided to
to initiate a ban in basketballand actually devastated at least
two women that I know thatwanted to go professional and
were good enough to goprofessional.
Absolutely when FIBA put the banin place.
That's where I kind of got thissense of goodness sake, we're
gonna have to go through thisagain, this whole kind of

(30:57):
challenging the ban, and we did.
We did overturn it again,largely due to Bilkis Abdul
Qadir, who's this amazingbasketballer, like I say, from
America who wants to goprofessional.
But there are so many othersports.
There are so many other sports.
I mean it's great, keith, thatwe've got the hijab in rugby.
That's allowed and specificallymentioned I think I'm guessing
here the fact that someone likeZainab, who plays rugby union,

(31:20):
is in the sport, can advocate,for that helps along the way.
What I would like is for therules to just not be restricted
so that when, if and whensomebody from from a different
background or a girl thatchooses to to dress in a
different way wants to enter asport, she has the opportunity,
she doesn't immediately come upwith a barrier.

(31:42):
And I guess, from a religiousheadgiver and the hijab band's
perspective, one of the thingsI'm currently trying to work on
in my so-called spare time isreally around working
proactively with sports to lookat their kids and say how can
you be more inclusive here, andspecifically around the hijab,
but just generally as well, howcan we make sure that no other

(32:04):
sport puts a ban in place,whether it's the hijab or the
burkini, whatever it might bethat stops women from every
background taking part?
And, um, I need some legalsupport with that, someone that
understands all this stuff.
So if anyone wants to help out,please let me know.
But that's that's what needs tobe done in terms of action.
We need to change the rules atthe international federation

(32:25):
level, because that is whattriples down right, you know,
right down to club level whatyou're doing is fantastic, rimna
.

So, yeah, power to you and we'll.
We'll spread the word for, formore support to you there, and
we we know historically thatwomen's sport's always been
considered as more acceptable,isn't it, if we're dressing
femininely what we traditionallymight have considered
femininely, and wearing skirtsand skorts and so on.
So, tes is fantastic to hearabout the work you're you're
doing in hockey.

(32:52):
What's general opinion in termsof that of playing in dresses,
and the same for netball there'ssuch a an interesting part.

It's where my whole interest came from was why
do we still wear scores and whyis that the legacy?
And as soon as you understandwhy, you're immediately put off
by, um, what the reasons are.
Acceptability in sport, yousaid, for women, has come from
femininity, and you have tounderstand where femininity

(33:19):
comes from.
It's docility, it'ssubmissiveness, it's to look a
certain way, it's aroundphysique, it's around appearance
, behavior.
So feminine itself, you know,has so much baggage to it that
it creates almost a paradox whenyou put it together with sport,
which is traditionally themasculine.

(33:40):
But then again, if youunderstand what masculine
traditionally means, it meansstrong, powerful, dominant,
aggressive, dare I say.
And so when you have these twoconflicting forces, that makes
it very difficult for a woman toexist in this space, and that's
called the athletic feminineidentity paradox.
And that is why there are somany tensions in sports,

(34:14):
conceived of as women invadingmen's sports, whereas hockey and
netball have been kind of, youknow, feminized by the, the
skirt or the dress.
So so my big interest is okay,now we're in the 21st century,
do we still need to feminizesports for us to be able to play
them?
And I ask these questions to myteammates.
I say, why do we still wearskorts?
And they say, well, we look, wejust look nice, it's more
professional, it's like I'm I.
Do you really think that?
Or is that your social andinternalization of um culture?

(34:38):
And I think it is is the latter, because no one grows up
thinking it's a certain wayunless you're told it's a
certain way.
That's socialization.
So what I've been trying tounderstand is with the is it
practical, professional orpatriarchal is where do our
beliefs for the sport come from?
And that's directly linked towhat it means to be a certain
gender and that, in the academicterm, is called cultural

(35:03):
intelligibility.
Can I understand that you are afemale?
Can I understand that you're afemale playing sport and that is
okay?
So that's sort of the logic youcan talk about the
hyper-feminization and theobjectification of women.
That is to overemphasize,hyper-feminize a woman so that
they are acceptable in thatsport space.
So I think that one day we'llget to a stage where you don't

(35:25):
have to be overly feminized toplay, to be accepted in sport.
And that's where I thinkuniform comes in, because
uniform itself let's take theskirt, for example, or the dress
it itself is the paradox.
It is saying that you can onlyplay the sport as a woman if you
wear this, because it says thatyou're a woman so that you can
play sport.
So it's the complete circleparadox that's going on.

(35:46):
So, to sum up, if we do changepolicy and we do change practice
, I think you can see some ofthese dominant narratives start
to change.
I could talk to you forever.

Tess, a whole new chapter in my book there on that
topic too.
But it is fascinating, isn't it?
When you hear it, it kind ofexplained in that way the the
historical impact that we stillsee today for those things like
we.
We worked a while ago withHarthor Quinn's rugby actually,
and we're going to do an AprilFool which was around the game
changes event that they had thatwe were going to design a skirt
for them to play rugby in askirt.

(36:17):
We'd even had it mocked up withall the the panels in the
different colors to say wewanted to feminize rugby, you
know, attract more women to it,as hockey and netball had to
play in a skirt and obviously itwas quite laughable at the time
and the april fall never wentahead for various reasons.
But when I'm talking to schoolsand to others now, I often say
you know, how would we feel ifthe Lionesses ran out in skirts?
It would be laughable to almostchange to think about them

(36:40):
running out of Wembley in floatywhite skirts.
But we think, but that's stillokay for tennis and golf and
netball and hockey and thosesports too.

But here's the funny thing, though, sue
Everybody trains in shorts.
I went on a massive Instagramstalk by Murata Karni because
she plays in a skirt.
Every single photo of hertraining on Instagram is in
shorts, and there's never been ahockey player who's done a
fitness test in a short, becauseit is impractical.
Here's where I think we can win.

(37:07):
I think we drop the it's genderdiscrimination, because clearly
that's not going to work.
So instead we go for what isperformance enhancing, and this
is how I started to get myteammates involved.
I'm saying what's going to makethe difference when we're in
the 40 degree heat in Tokyo?
What is going to make thedifference?
It's not a lightweight skirt,it's no skirt at all, it's

(37:30):
shorts.
So I think if we go along theperformance enhancing and
comfort, comfort route, I thinkwe can make a lot of progress
fantastic, thank you.

Thank you.
You know there's so kind of somuch to unpack there, isn't
there?
Uh, in terms of, I guess, inschools and so on, wendy, you
know, just restricting you tothat area.
But in terms of the, theattitude to, to sports, and I
remember talking to a directorof sport recently who said
actually I talked to my girls innetball and they all love the
netball girls, all love theirdresses.
My point was well, that'slovely that they do.

(38:00):
I'm more concerned about thosethat aren't in the netball team
anymore, that have given upplaying because they don't want
to wear the dresses.
So I guess that's often ananswer we hear is actually the
women that are playing, you love, as Tessa said, they love what
they're playing in yeah, it'snot surprising when you look at
schools that teachers teach totheir strengths.

They put on opportunities that are are
attractive for more studentslike that, like themselves, and
so role models.
And you know actually having theright conversations with a
range of girls that arerepresentative of your school
population, not just the girlsthat you see that come to you
and talk to you, seeking out andhaving you know those depths of
conversations with a range ofgirls, because we know that

(38:41):
there is a challenge for girlswhere they've got this constant
struggle around what they see onsocial media, how they're meant
to look, the feminine, and youknow all of the selfie images
that you see and that clearly isthat conflict with getting
changed and for all the reasonsthat Tess has outlined in terms
of being competitive, you knowgetting hot and sweaty and for

(39:01):
many of those girls that is areal challenge and therefore you
know they don't want to kind offinish PE and then have to go
to the next lesson hot andsweaty and feeling like you know
everything that they've done tomake themselves feel who they
are in their identity.
So that there's there's got tobe a way in which we create the
the right environment, thatwhere girls feel safe, where

(39:24):
they feel valued and where theyhave that sense of belonging
kicks one element to that.
But actually also, you know howthey the activities on offer,
how they're delivered, andhearing that also.
You know how the activities onoffer, how they're delivered and
hearing that actually.
Yes, you know we're going tomake the changing rooms more, a
better environment for you.
We're going to build in timewhere you've got, you know, time
to kind of make sure that youknow and nobody wants to shower

(39:45):
in a secondary facilities.
That's a whole differentconversation around.
You know actually the state ofsecondary PE facilities because-
.
That's a's another podcast, butabsolutely I think it's building
girls' confidence and helpingthem normalise that actually how
you feel and the benefits ofbeing active and actually
removing some of thoseinhibitions for them, to make

(40:07):
them see that that's the spacethey want to be in.

Thank you, and I'd like to move on, if I I can I'm
conscious I'm just trying towhistle through my topics is a
big area, isn't it?
But maybe a little bit morearound a slightly murky area,
really, but around women'ssports clothing being designed
to objectify women's bodies,which I guess is a build-on from
that femininity.
What we've seen I mean anyonethat saw the Norwegian handball
beach handball tiny, tinybikinis last year, pictured next

(40:32):
to the men's team in theirshorts, and so on We'll
understand the kind ofchallenges that we face.
I don't know, it's a difficulttopic, isn't it?
Because we do want women to havechoice, and I think Holly and I
have had that conversationbefore too that you want women
to have.
If women want to exhibit theirbodies and they feel that's how
they want to compete, then youwant to allow them to do so.
We don't want to be restrictive, but we want to have that

(40:54):
choice too.
So I don't know if any of youhave got thoughts on, I guess,
practical ways in which we cankind of change some of those
beliefs and views, movingforward in terms of that that
women playing in minimal kitsfor high-cut leotards, bikini
bottoms and so on yeah, I mean,I have talked about this a lot
and when, when the camera pansalong the field of 12 girls out

(41:17):
there, you know I'm the only onewearing what I wear.

You know I have long shorts on to cover my
thighs.
I do not want to have my bellyout on TV and that's very
unusual.
But I think for starters likeme, being in that shows to
people at home that this is anoption to wear.
I don't have to be.
You know, a lot of girls dofeel comfortable wearing crop
top, shorts, knickers.
That's absolutely fine, but alot of girls don't.
So the fact that I have theoption out there and girls are

(41:44):
seeing that, I've had a lot offeedback as to how much of a
positive thing that is.
And I think I think it is avery difficult, like you said, a
very difficult conversation ora topic to talk about.
And when Tess was talking aboutthe femininity in athletics,
although we don't wear skorts ordresses or anything like that,
there is a big range and Ialmost feel like sport,

(42:07):
especially in athletics I'm notsure on others has been lost in
terms of you know, girls want tobe out there and look great.
In terms of you know girls wantto be out there and look great,
but it's gone to the extremesof it's more of a fashion show.
How kind of great and sexy canyou look?
Because that is what sells andthere's no getting away from
that.
But what isn't being rewardedis girls out there who are just

(42:28):
out there because they want todo sport, they want to fling
themselves over a pole, theywant to run as fast as they can.
They're sweaty, they're redface, they look terrible.
But that's not what sports about.
Like, it's the purity of ofsport.
And I think what you were justsaying about in schools and I, I
would go to mass, I'd go toEnglish and I'd be sweating, I'd
be, I'd be red face, becauseI'm one of those girls that I'll

(42:50):
keep a red face for a good hourafter I've played sport.
And girls don't want to do thatthese days because of social
media and the pressure to lookgood.
And I think, yeah, the more itcan be talked about, the more
these barriers can be brokendown, because it's just a
terribly sad state of affairs,in my opinion.

No, I completely agree, and I think it is.
There's not more we can seewomen being sweaty and enjoying
sport in the way that men haveover time.
That definitely has to, youknow, have an impact.
Make a change there.
Sorry, when did you want to saysomething then I?

was just gonna add really, and I think it's, I
think it's the responsibility ofus all you know, really to to
see, to see the person, to seethe ability to talk about the
performance and not how theylook.
And I think, just you know,time and time again, you just
you see, you hear it.
You hear kind of the commentsof, well, look what they're
wearing, or their hair's strange, or whatever it might be, and
that anything that detracts fromactually this is a person

(43:42):
that's participating to the bestof their ability or, you know,
for the maximum enjoyment.
That's really what we reallyneed to keep bringing it back to
and challenging everybody to doso.

Because I, just if I can add, I say I'm watching
football and a male footballplayer has mud everywhere, their
hair's all over the show andthey're sweating.
Nobody would ever make acomment at all.
But if I was out there playingfootball and I was in a tackle
and my hair was all over theshow, I'd mud on my face and I
was sweaty, I'm pretty sure alot of people would have an
opinion on oh like, like gosh,she looks like a right state out

(44:21):
there.

I'm 100% sure that happens, but that shouldn't
happen, like I don't understandwhy that still happens in
today's society.
I think it's really.
It just really does vary fromsport to sport, like you say,
holly, because I mean I rememberJodie Cunningham's podcast,
actually to give a shout out toyour podcast again, sue, thank
you nicely done.
You know we've got the RugbyLeague World Cup coming up, just
starting this weekend.
We've got the men's, women'sand the wheelchair all taking

(44:42):
part at the same time trying togive as much equality and and
kind of parity across the sportsas it comes.
But Jodie talks about in thatpodcast the fact that she loved
it because she loved RugbyLeague, because you could come
as you are right, you could comewith with whatever color kit
you wanted, you know ribbons inyour hair, whatever it was, but
you were still doing the samething.

(45:03):
You were tackling hard, youwere running hard, you were
getting muddy and dirty and kindof that question of femininity
just wasn't there and what Iwould love to see.
I mean I think one of the bestpictures for me that came from
when the Olympics was with theEgyptian beach volleyball
players and the Germanvolleyball player beach
volleyball players.
In that match that you had Duawho was there with her hijab on

(45:27):
and her partner in in thedoubles match that doesn't wear
the hijab but still covers therest, so that there was the two
of them.
There was a difference there,but there was also that kind of
difference between what wasacross the net and and there,
and, and the thing is it wasstill about the sport.
I think people made it aboutmore than that in terms of the
kit, but it was just about beingcompetitive and, and you know,

(45:48):
enjoying the sporting spectaclethat was there.
So I think, actually, media andthe way this all gets covered is
so, so important in terms ofmaking sure so.
So, for example, with theNorwegian women's beach handball
team being fined for wearingshorts instead of bikinis right,
ridiculous.
But can we see the same outragewhen, when, when girls are
forced to not wear hijab or notnot allowed to cover, because

(46:11):
actually forcing women out ofclothing is just.
As there's a good friend ofmine and big sister, really
Shireen, says to me all the timeit's just as violent as forcing
women into clothes.
So for me it's just.
We need to, I think, really putthe pressure on the media as
well to start covering thisproperly.
There's something here aroundbrands.
Definitely there's somethinghere around media which can help

(46:34):
put the pressure to create thechange that we want to see.
But I absolutely agree withwhat Tess was saying earlier on
as well, that kind of framing itin the right way that athletes
can get behind it.
It's that little triangle thatwe've got right there of the
athletes, media and the brandsto create the pressure on sports
to make the changes.

Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
There's lots of interestingcomments in the Q&A, but an
interesting piece about unisexkit and the idea of having
unisex kit and I love that.
Charlie said unisex usuallymeans it's just men's kit but
women have to wear it.
That does tend to be what wemean by.
I think what we mean by unisexand I think we've seen that.
I know there's a bit of anissue last year with Harlequin's
big game with a women's rugbykit that looked like men's kit.

(47:15):
So I think one of the athletessaid put some of the men in a
women's size 14 and see how theyfeel about playing in unisex
kit.
So I think there there havebeen issues there.
I would like just to go aroundand get some kind of final
thoughts from you, really, if Ican do, as we're closing, but in
terms of if there was one thingthat you think could have the
biggest impact, I would like usto take away, I think, some

(47:35):
really interesting things herein terms of the brands and you
know that the impact that mediacan have and athletes too, in
terms of driving that change andhighlighting that change.
But if, either from thisconversation or your own
thoughts, that there was onething that you would like to
share, that we could take away,that you feel will have a
biggest impact in this space.
Wendy, I'm going to start withyou again because I started with
you at the beginning, if that'sokay, absolutely.

I mean, I think I guess for me it's really we need
to keep championing that voice,that voice of you know,
participants, whether that'sgirls in school, whether it's at
all levels, and really need tokind of challenge leaders at
whatever level that we'reworking with, and leaders, at

(48:20):
whatever level that we'reworking with, and whether that's
school leaders, whether that's,you know, as, as uh rimless
just said, you know that thebrands, media keep profiling
that and really kind of keepchampioning, as you know, as
holly and tessa obviously doingsuch an amazing job of doing
within, within, their sport.
I think one thing that I reallywould like to see a bit more
conversation around it from aschool's perspective, as well as
things like sports bars and Iknow again, that's probably
another conversation, but youknow, actually, why have we not
got sports bars a recommendeditem on a kit list, pe kit list,
for example?

(48:40):
You know too many girls runningaround really feeling
uncomfortable yet again, andthat's another.
You know another element whereyou know we could make a big
difference to how girls feel.

There's so much to cover.
You've got four points in there.

Tess.
What would your thoughts be?
So my thoughts are policy takesa while to change, it's slow,
but things on the ground canmove really quickly, like what
this Marlowe hockey you can wearwhatever you want thing did.
So the takeaway that I wouldgive to those watching would be
if you have whoever you have andyou're in charge of give them

(49:13):
the choice there and then andsee what what happens, make
choice real, make sure they feelsafe, that they can actually
express themselves, and if youdo that, hopefully you will see
that policy can then be changedafterwards.
But real action starts from theground.
So I would open up with choicefantastic.

Thank you, tess.
Uh Rimla, what would yours be?

the point that I made up front of choice is
definitely there.
Ultimately it's about the user.
As far as I'm concerned, it'sthe same as any other area of
life.
It's about what the personwants.
But I would just say, for thosethat are here on the on on this
webinar or watching back, it'sfor me just always question why?
Just just question.
Why are we doing this the waythat we're doing it?

(49:56):
And it doesn't just apply tokits, because oftentimes you'll
find that there's no realrational reason for it and there
is a better way to do it.
So I would just say question inwhatever your sphere of
influence is, question why we'redoing things the way that we're
doing them fantastic, fantastic.

Thank you, vimla , and no pressure, holly, but uh
over to you for the last pointall the options have gone now I
would just again like we'vetouched on um ask brands and
national governing bodies tojust ask the athletes what they
want.
It's almost I like the idea ofmore choices, but has anyone

(50:31):
ever sat down with a group ofshop putters and said what is it
that you want to wear?
Because I bet it hasn'thappened and I'd just like to
see a lot more of that from thebrands and the governing bodies,
rather than just choosing fouroptions, the easier four options
, what you want to wear.
I'd just like to see a bit moreof that.

Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Thank you all of you.
We've all got to go away and bemore rigorously inclusive now.
I'm going to use that lovelyphrase, tess, but thank you to
Wendy, tess, rimla and Holly.
I appreciate your time.
So thank you all so much.
I really hope you enjoyed thatsession as much as I did.

(51:09):
What brilliant women they are.
I'd love to hear your feedbackon this format or on the game
changes generally, so do get intouch on social media, where
you'll find me on Twitter,linkedin and Instagram at Sue
Anstis.
Head over to fearlesswomencoukto find out more about all of

(51:30):
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miss future episodes and if youhave time for a quick review or
rating, we'd be so grateful, asit really helps us to reach new
listeners.
Thanks again to Sport Englandfor backing the Game Changers

(52:22):
through the National Lottery andto Sam Walker at what Goes On
Media, who does such a great jobas our executive producer.
Finally, thank you to mybrilliant colleague, kate Hannan
, who does so much behind thescenes.
At Fearless Women, the gamechanges.
Fearless Women in Sport.

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