April 16, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of The Health Fix Podcast, Dr. Jannine Krause sits down with Forrest Smith, Co-Founder and CEO of Kineon—a leading red light therapy device company—to uncover the science behind photobiomodulation and how it can reduce chronic inflammation, improve brain function, support thyroid health, and even influence the vagus nerve.
A former pro rugby player, Forrest shares his personal healing journey from a meniscus tear to full-body recovery—using a powerful blend of infrared lasers and red-light LEDs. Now, he’s on a mission to help others harness this same technology.
Whether you’re struggling with pain, fatigue, brain fog, or thyroid issues—this episode gives you insight into the healing potential of light, especially when targeted precisely.
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💡 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
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Why combining red light LED with infrared laser light therapy delivers deeper, more effective results
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Red light therapy’s role in clearing out brain waste via glial cell activation
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How Kineon’s device targets both surface and deep tissue inflammation
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The science behind photobiomodulation for thyroid and vagus nerve health
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The mitochondrial energy boost from infrared therapy
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Key differences between light panels vs. portable wearables
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How thermography is being used to track red light therapy progress
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Client results: tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, insomnia relief in 15 mins a day
🔗 Resources & Links from the Show:
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🌐 Kineon Official Website: https://kineon.io/
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🎁 Get 10% Off: https://kineon.sjv.io/55YDDj
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
the lymphatic system.
Essentially what we found through the research around this is that you're seeing a numberof different things improving out of this.
One is the clearance rates for different waste materials from the brain.
And that's really measured.
Those are typically blood draws.
(00:21):
And what's been assumed around this, although in some cases what we have is like the ABC,so kind of the dosing and how it's being used and how it's like
how it's triggering the XYZ of outcomes.
We don't have, in some cases, the mechanistic underpinning for this completely delineatedyet.
But the increase in clearance of different kind of waste proteins in the brain has beenmeasured relatively effectively in large scale studies.
(00:52):
Welcome to the Health Fix Podcast where health junkies get their weekly fix of tips, toolsand techniques to have limitless energy, sharp minds and fit physiques for life.
Hey health junkies on this episode of the Health Fix Podcast, I'm interviewing ForrestSmith.
He's the co-founder and CEO of Kinion, a red light therapy device that I've been using alot lately and digging.
(01:17):
Now here's the thing.
We talk about red light therapy, but we take it to another level with force.
We're talking about photo bio modulation that makes it sound super serious, right?
Well, here's the thing.
The Kinion device has a combination of red light, but it also has lasers in it to make iteven stronger.
And so this is some of the technology you want to be thinking about when you're looking atred light therapy and especially this day and age when we have lots of different devices
(01:44):
out there and you want to know what's best for you.
This particular device is very
targeted, it hones in on certain areas and gets to, let's say, the point, if you will, asyou hear me talk about a little bit later on how I'm using it on acupuncture points.
Now, one of the cool things that Forrest and I dive into on this podcast is we start totalk about how just 15 minutes a day, four to five days a week, you can reduce
(02:09):
inflammation.
And one of the specific areas that not too many people are talking about is thyroidinflammation.
So many folks have Hashimoto's thyroiditis and even one of the co-founders of Kinian does,and they found that this really helped him to reduce his inflammation.
And so in this podcast, we're going to be talking about a little twist on the usual chatabout red light and infrared therapy and pain.
(02:37):
We're going into talking about other things and even the concept that Kinian has movingforward for helping with
gut health, so using targeted laser therapy and red light therapy to help guts.
Who doesn't want to have something for their gut that they don't have to take copiousamounts of pills and things of that nature?
(02:58):
Yes, sign me up.
So we're gonna talk about why you wanna blend laser with red light therapy.
We're gonna talk about draining your brain of toxins using red light therapy.
We're also gonna go into really how this can impact and help your vagus nerve.
So stay tuned for some cool stuff that we are learning about.
(03:20):
And I'm like geeking out over basically in talking with Forrest about what his company hasbeen uncovering and using the latest research on red light therapy and lasers for helping
our bodies using photobiomodulation.
So let's introduce you to Forrest Smith, co-founder and CEO of Kinion.
(03:42):
Hey, health junkies, I have Forrest Smith on and he is the founder and CEO of Kinion andwe are talking about red light therapy today, but we're going to take it with a different
twist on what you guys have heard before on the podcast from me.
So Forrest, welcome to the Health Fix Podcast.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm super excited about the conversation today.
man, we've got all kinds of stuff to talk about.
Cause I geek out on red light.
It is my number one thing for recovery.
(04:04):
It's kind of, I'm kind of addicted to it.
I will be honest.
And since now trying out your device, I'm like, okay, this one has a whole nother it'sopened up new doors of red light therapy for me.
So of course I always love to start podcasts off by asking like, okay, how are you usingred light?
You kind of gave me a little hints, but you know, let's tell the folks who are listening,like how you're using it, how you came to get
(04:27):
obsessed with it perhaps and how you got to where you are today.
Hi, I it.
I've been a of a lifelong athlete, really competed up through university and then kind offell off as I started kind going through my career.
And one of the things that actually from an injury standpoint was a trigger for me forgetting into red light was a meniscus tear.
(04:52):
And the reason for that is with meniscus tears, you can't really do a great, there's nogood.
outcome from a surgery on this.
It's kind of 50-50 whether you're going to go up or down the outcome from the surgery.
I was actually out of competitive sports by the time I tore my meniscus.
And so, you know, what happens with that is it used to drive me out of my trainingpatterns by, you know, if I, there's certain movements that trigger inflammation and kind
(05:19):
of trigger pain in the, in the joints.
So overhead squats for some reason was just one of those that the movement pattern with itwas just not a lot of fun.
And so I would trigger that inflammation, my knee would swell up, it'd be blown up for afew weeks, and I couldn't really get that pain and inflammation down very quickly.
And I don't really like taking pharmaceuticals for it, so I just kind of stuck with beingout of the gym, out of training for weeks at a time, which really was kind of unfortunate
(05:48):
and had a negative impact on my overall mental health and physical health.
And so we have an opportunity with photobiomodulation or light therapy to be able to treatthat very effectively.
And I couldn't find anything on the market that was, there was a big gap between 30 to$50,000 really cool laser therapy devices that would sit on a desktop and had a wand and
(06:11):
you could hold on it and see amazing results and had great dosing.
Or there were kind of panels that don't dose very well and are kind of a genuine almostprototype level product.
because you're just strapping a bunch of LEDs on, you don't really have a set kind ofdosing pattern for those.
And in looking at that, we found that there was an opportunity to be able to developsomething that fit the difference there.
(06:36):
How do we get something clinical level with lasers included, passing all the regulatory,but sub $500 so people can actually afford to use it at home on a daily basis instead of
the $30,000 $50,000 version?
that's how we started with the...
with our first product with Kenyan is the Move Plus.
And it's been amazing.
(06:56):
What that's changed for me is two main things from a training standpoint is I'm kind ofmiddle-aged now, a tall cross-fitter.
My lower back doesn't love me for that.
lower back and then this old meniscus injury where it used to be weeks of time when itwould trigger, it's now a day and a half or two days because I can get that inflammation
(07:18):
back down super fast.
And I don't go back into 100%, but I can at least get it back into movement and trainingand then kind of scale back up on the weights within a couple of days versus weeks.
that's really kind of my, that's what kicked off my obsession or deep dive the rabbitholes of photobiomodulation.
(07:38):
man, I know that your story isn't uncommon, especially for a lot of us folks.
I'm also in my late 40s and we're looking at, more like mid to late 40s, I'm gonna saylate 40s, I'm aging myself, but we're looking at the devices and for a lot of people,
we're kind of trying to think, okay, well, where I hurt, some of these things just don'tmake sense.
(07:59):
Like a panel, I'm like, that's whole body to me.
I don't know how I'm pinpoint something, you know, and a lot of people do ask me thatthey're like, what kind of red light device is going to be best for me?
And I'm like, well, what are we working with here?
And what are we doing?
And of course, today, I'd love to kind of dive into that because I love using the Kenyanbecause it is specific to target.
have a slipped disc L5S1 and it's a pain in the butt, literally.
(08:25):
And so, you know, things like that for a lot of people are common.
But I think a lot of people, you know, they get the idea that red light therapy for pain.
Cool, okay, we get it.
But what I wanna kind of dive into and kind of the mechanism of why this works, talkingabout circulation, because we know circulation declines as we get older, talking about
nitric oxide, things of that nature, the mitochondria.
One of the biggies that's been kind of hot lately is the thyroid and talking about how wecan help use red light therapy to help with the thyroid.
(08:50):
So I would love to die.
That was a huge thing there for you, by the way, for us.
Let's geek out a little bit for folks to understand why laser-based red light therapy
gets deeper than just skin level stuff and how, you know, how we're targetingmitochondria, how we're targeting circulation a little
I love it.
It's a great question.
(09:10):
We spend tens of thousands of hours on this exact topic, building out mathematical modelsto show and demonstrate how photons move through tissue.
And then we also kind of use our mathematical models, these Monte Carlo models that webuild.
And then we test versus physiology because the key to the outcomes from light therapy isbiphasic dosing.
(09:34):
So the more you dose, you go up the hill from outcomes.
and then you jump the shark at some point.
So if you kind of overdose, it doesn't go back below zero.
These aren't kind of shark-based lasers.
They're not going to cut you in half or anything.
They're class one lasers.
They're not going to damage you.
But it can reduce the outcomes that you get if the dosing is not right.
(09:58):
So there's a sweet spot at the top of that hill from a dosing standpoint.
And what really drives that is how many photons are triggering photo acceptors in thebody.
And so what we've done from a dosing standpoint is look at what depth of tissue, becauseyou have a lot of different kind of layers of tissue, at what depth of tissue and at what
(10:18):
order of magnitude.
How many of these photo acceptors exist and where are they?
And we've worked backwards into how to dose from a photon delivery system.
And we actually, on one side of things, we do use an LED for our red light because redlight doesn't penetrate through as much.
And we're never going to see that going through to the depth of tissue that we're kind ofworking on from a targeting standpoint.
(10:42):
We do use a primary optic to be able to reduce that kind of typically LEDs, just to kindof give a bit of the background as the engineering side of this.
LEDs are a dye based technology.
They emit light in all directions from that ship until they're packaged into what lookslike a cup of an electrical electronic component.
(11:06):
that cup kind of pulls that back in from 360 degrees of emission to 120 degrees.
That's still extremely broad.
And it's also it also just continues to expand.
So if you're if you're in front of a panel, as an example, two inches forward or twoinches back changes that dose massively.
And, you don't know where you are on that hill of the biphasic dosing.
(11:26):
And so, you know, what we've done with the the laser piece is we've we use lasers for ourinfrared because that combination
lasers instead of spreading at 120 degrees, it's around three to four degrees of spreadand it doesn't continue to spread.
It's what they call collimated.
So it continues directly and more efficiently into the tissue for dosing internal tissue.
(11:51):
And what we're trying to do with our dosing model is dose both the superficial tissue,which is actually done very effectively with different types of beds and
The guys, for example, at Thor Laser make a really cool bed that doses really effectivelyfor the superficial tissue.
And your skin is your largest organ, so it's a good way to release a lot of nitric oxide,and there's some really cool benefits for those beds.
(12:18):
What we do more is target a combination of the superficial tissue and the internal tissueso that if you have soft tissue pain and inflammation, lower back issues, shoulder issues,
neck issues, osteoarthritis of the knee,
Particularly when these pathologies are driven primarily by inflammation, the outcomes areso much more powerful because you can target that internal tissue versus having the kind
(12:46):
of superficial tissue targeted and then some of the effects of that bleeding over intothat internal tissue.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah.
I think a lot of people don't realize because let's put it, you know, there's somecreative copy out there, right?
And you're reading down and it sounds like it's going to clear everything in, you know,red light therapy is amazing.
It's game or all you need is one device.
(13:07):
It's going to what I found, you know, is like some of these panels, especially the onesthat you could put on the body that have a heating kind of component, like, oh, those are
nice.
And you, especially if my belly hurts, you know, that that feels good, you know, but whenI'm wanting something like you said to target,
then we do need to consider having something that's a little bit more targeted.
(13:29):
Yeah, the laser collimation really, really helps.
there's also, think, just how you target this from a theoretical standpoint has reallyhelped us as well.
One of the things that we've noticed in, because it's still relatively early to markettechnology from red light therapy, and one of the things that we've seen is that a lot of
(13:52):
the targeting or the metrics that people use to measure
What they're dosing to your body is essentially the optical power levels coming out of thedevice or the optical power levels coming into the tissue.
And even within those, there's a big difference.
And as an example, with the Move Plus, we have 10 lasers per module, three modules, so 30lasers.
(14:19):
Originally, we didn't have that many.
We had, kind of based on the medical literature, just two, but with the same level ofpower.
What we found, though, is
And this is one of the things that took us down the kind of tens of thousands of hoursinto the mathematical modeling and physiological testing is that even if we stayed within
the best practices from the medical literature, the power levels delivery and having thatin 10 emitters instead of two made a huge difference for outcomes.
(14:50):
And so that kind of triggered the question for us of like, this doesn't really, why?
This is the same level of dosing according to how it's measured.
from the medical literature.
what we had to do is go back in and start really kind of parsing what's the best way tounderstand how our bodies are accepting these different photons and what's that triggering
(15:12):
from a signaling pathway.
And there are a number of different signaling pathways.
I think you mentioned nitric oxide.
It's a really big one that we trigger.
But there's a number of different things that are triggered by photobiomodulation when thedosing is correct.
And I think it's not really broadly known that, know, it's not just a power into yourtotal system as a physiology.
(15:37):
It's really targeting correctly with the right wavelengths, with the right frequencies,with the right power levels, et cetera, these different photo acceptors.
So start from what you want to trigger and work backwards.
It has become a much more effective way for us to work on the dosing modeling versus just,hey, this is one system
(15:57):
Let's put this much power into it, if that makes sense.
Absolutely makes sense.
You know, I think for for the average person, they may be thinking like, okay, so if Ineed to target it, what kind of device am I looking for?
And like, can I change the power within it?
Or do I need to like bring it back and forth?
(16:17):
What do I do?
You know, if you can kind of dumb it down a little bit for me even here, and then notsaying my audience is dumb, it's more me on this one to be like, okay, so
Do are there different times we put it in for?
Are there different, you know, distances?
Give me the scoop there.
So we recommend dosing be done at the skin level because otherwise it's extremely hard tobe consistent in the dose.
(16:45):
have whatever light therapy device you're using, make sure that it's on your skin and thatyou have an understanding of how that's going to be delivering this dosage kind of over
time.
We modulated it through time.
We wanted to make it as simple as we could.
When we designed our product, again, what we're comparing it with is these really kind of
The goal is to make it as low friction as possible so that people can use it at home andstack it with other things that they're doing.
(17:14):
If you're having coffee in the morning, being able to wear it makes it much morefunctional so that you're not having to hold it on yourself or stand in front of a panel
or something like this.
Making it travel friendly so if you're on an airplane, you can actually kind of use it aswell without the rubber gloves of security coming out to kind of make sure that your
batteries aren't going to blow up the plane.
(17:34):
We've been through extra SCC clearances for that.
But the main thing is reducing the friction for people to be able to use it.
In our assumption, means that they'll take it on more effectively and hopefully replacesomething like pharmaceutical solutions that they have for pain and inflammation.
But to take one step back, I think you made a really good comment about the kind of claimsthat we see around photobiomodulation or light therapy.
(18:04):
There's so many of these and we get this quite a lot.
We want to be very upfront and set expectations in a way that users are going to be veryhappy and have a great experience with this.
And I think one of the things that we get a question about a lot is how could it bepossible that you could treat so many different pathologies?
How is this not snake oil?
(18:24):
And I think one of the things that we really focus on with this is from a mechanisticstandpoint, we're treating chronic inflammation.
That's one of the main outcomes that you get out of this is reducing chronic inflammation,depending on where you're treating the body locally, but it's also, there's some protocols
that we can share in a moment about how to do that more systemically as well.
(18:47):
There's some nice high leverage points of the body for being able to treat.
And when you reduce chronic inflammation, chronic inflammation is such a scourge in thebody that when you can reduce it anywhere, you can really see some beneficial outcomes.
for different pathologies in that area.
And that's as far kind of as disparate as things like osteoarthritis and endometriosis.
(19:09):
And you're like, my knee and kind of female reproductive tissue, how could that possiblynot be a snake oil?
But the key is it's not necessarily treating specifically that pathology, it's treatingthe upstream cause or mechanism, which is that inflammation.
again, it's a deep one to dive into, but it's a very reasonable question for
(19:32):
a lot of people to ask because when you see something that's claiming such broad levels ofpathology treatment, there's over 7,000 studies on photobiomodulation now and they cover a
ton of these.
team contribute to this.
There's an international group cataloging and have a full database on drill downs intothese that I can share as well.
But it's a powerful tool for chronic and damaging inflammation in the body.
(19:57):
And I think that's the key takeaway that we try to give to people.
think that's great because I mean, think about it this way, oxidative stress leads toinflammation leads to breakdown of the body and as we're aging, like what's the best anti
aging thing we have, slow that process down.
And one of the things you know, I was going to put out there just as a note, and I do wantto talk about your the research that you guys are diving into.
(20:19):
So we could put something in the podcast notes, because a lot of folks are really wantingto learn more but also want that background now to make sure we're not talking snake oil.
One of the cool things I have thought about the Canadian device is that because it is sotargeted, you know, we were talking thyroid for a minute.
We also have acupuncture points that can be targeted as well.
And so as an acupuncturist, I geek out a little bit on it and I'll be like, Oh, I'm to putthis in certain places based on one, what I know to be connected for, for the inflammation
(20:48):
in the body.
Have you heard anybody else doing that?
Is anyone else playing around like me?
Yes, there's a couple of really cool labs out of China where kind of acupuncture is morebroadly adopted that have done great research on this.
We're actually seeing this relative to things like treatment.
And I've forgotten specific points that there's acupuncture points kind of like there'sEEG points where you have like a letter and a number specific to those.
(21:18):
And they're using different acupuncture points that are not local to
For example, Vegas nerve, but from which we're seeing really powerful autonomic nervoussystem impacts and there's a number of different things.
That's one that comes to mind just because we saw this last week.
I think it was a relatively recent, you know, in the last year study on this and measuredthrough, I believe, heart rate variability and some EEG data that they were pulling from
(21:44):
autonomic nervous state, really helping people get out of fight or flight kind of
sympathetic nervous system responses and into kind of that rest and digest phase.
And it's powerful.
think there's a lot, everything's connected and we see a couple of different things.
One is this idea of acupuncture and acupuncture points triggering high leverage outcomes.
(22:11):
One other one that I think is a really interesting one that you would like to geek out onprobably as well is
the lymphatic and glymphatic system.
you know, one of the things that we see with a lot, particularly with kind of our agingusers is if you're not sleeping enough, if your recovery is not great, you start
(22:33):
generating and aggregating more waste material in your brain.
And how can we get that waste material out of the brain?
Because it increases the risks for different types of dementia, for Alzheimer's, but alsojust you just don't feel
cognitively as aware or kind of alert.
And what we found is this system of glial cells and the glymphatic system is kind of whatthey've dubbed it is the glial cells clearing out the brain from these different waste
(23:04):
materials.
And then the lymphatic system kind of behind the cheekbones and then in the necks are kindof bottleneck points for that.
And so being able to treat the brain.
And then this lymphatic drainage system for that waste material has a powerful impact inclearing a lot of that waste material out of the brain.
That's so cool.
(23:25):
That's so cool.
And like, you know, lot of the points as I think about it are like close to theparasympathetic calming points too.
So you get two for ones.
And one of the things we do in our house all the time is we're walking around, my husbandin particular is walking around all the time with the device actually more behind the ears
a little bit, cause there's a point Chinese like called Anmian that's a calming pointwhere the vagus nerve comes.
(23:45):
out.
And so we're like, got their new necklace on patients to have that as t they can help toreally ge out.
Now let's talk a lit red light therapy, you kno never say photo bio modula
(24:06):
That's a mouthful.
thyroid, like moving the lymph nodes out of here.
What are we getting after?
Because I think for folks to like, okay, that's cool.
What is exactly happening?
Is it nitric oxide?
it heme?
What are we going after?
So what we're seeing right now from the...
(24:28):
So I think splitting those off into two different versions.
One is with the hypothyroidism and Hashimoto's, there's been more more research over thelast three to four years really demonstrating increased functionality out of the thyroid.
I'm blanking on the metrics, the biofeedback that they've measured for these, but it was avery...
(24:54):
substantial improvement from a thyroid function.
I think I mentioned before we started kind of chatting here, one of the reasons we startedon this research path is my business partner has Hashimoto's, which is essentially kind of
super hyper hypothyroidism.
And it's been tough for him because it affects energy levels.
(25:18):
as part of that research going down the rabbit hole of
know, how is photobiobiodenization moving the needle for this?
We've found that it actually is a really broadly experienced pathology for women, aroundparaminopause and menopause.
And this was, you know, our research team skews male, and it's just not something that wason our radar because of that.
(25:44):
And it's been really interesting to see these kind of double digit increases in keybiometrics around
thyroid function.
It also stacks very well with a couple of different supplements.
And so the two that have come up in multiple studies are vitamin D3 and selenium.
(26:07):
And those actually work on separate pathways from the photobiomodulation.
But I'll have to get you the actual research papers over and happy to kind of tag thosethrough and provide a little bit more summary on those.
because I don't have the biometrics that were in the papers in mind, but I do know it waskind of double-digit increases in thyroid function measured, typically with blood markers,
(26:34):
I believe.
But on the other side, with the lymphatic system, essentially what we found through theresearch around this is that you're seeing a number of different things
improving out of this.
One is the clearance rates for different waste materials from the brain.
(26:56):
And that's really measured.
Those are typically blood draws.
And what's been assumed around this, although in some cases what we have is like the ABC,so kind of the dosing and how it's being used and how it's like, how it's triggering the
XYZ of outcomes.
We don't have in some cases the mechanistic underpinning for this completely delineatedyet, but the increase in
(27:20):
clearance of different kind of waste proteins in the brain has been measured relativelyeffectively in large-scale studies.
And again, part of what this has been assumed to be is the increased level ofmitochondrial function.
And so there's a photo acceptor in the electron transport chain, the fourth phase of thatelectron transport chain called cytochrome C oxidase, where essentially
(27:49):
Particularly the infrared light triggers a dissociation of nitric oxide from that bindingsite.
And this isn't something that doesn't happen naturally.
What it does is it just increases the pace of that kind of dissociation.
And when you increase that pace, it's a bottleneck.
(28:09):
And so when you remove the bottleneck, what happens when the dosing is correct is that youessentially double your cellular energy generation in the form of ATP.
So you double the production capacity for this.
And there's a couple of things that happen kind of in that kind of nuclear retrogradesignaling from the mitochondria, which is, and you alluded to it earlier, is the oxidative
(28:34):
stress.
You start seeing a very short term, and we had a good analogy for this.
I was out in Texas recently and we got a good football analogy for it, which is.
Essentially, you spike these reactive oxygen species very short term, and then they dropand carry on for 24 to 48 hours in that lower state.
(28:56):
And our football analogy for that was you're essentially getting your mitochondria as afootball team to run more plays.
Like it's at the end of the game, you got your two minute drill, you're running moreplays.
That means you're going to get more yards, but it also means you're going to have moredropped passes.
And so that's the reactive oxygen species.
It kind of spikes short term.
but you're gonna see more touchdowns, is kind of see more of that energy generation andthe reduced oxidative stress downstream in that intracellular signaling.
(29:24):
Oh man, you know, all of us could use a little bit of that, one more plays in the game.
also, mean, energy as a whole, you know, when we think of energy, a lot of people aregonna think just like energy in the body, but we don't realize that energy's made every
single cell and every single place in the body.
So if we do have an injury or we do have a spot that's like a hot spot, let's call itthat, you know, where we tend to have pain, having something like this on board can be
(29:48):
really nice to be able to like, okay, pop it on, you know, afterwards, then you're notlimping for the next, yeah.
two days or limping two days later when things all catch up with you, that kind of thing.
So important, so important.
Yeah, it's great.
One of the things that we've we kind of coach with this is again habit stacking and whenyou're consistent with it, the quality of tissue, two big things.
(30:12):
One is re injuring the same tissue is very common and particularly with with a lot of theperformance athletes we work with professional cross fitters, the Olympic US weightlifting
team, know, NBA, NFL, special special forces guys, and they're really pushing their bodiesto the kind of
the margins of what a human can do.
(30:34):
But what we find out of that is they often re-injure the same tissue.
And when you see what they look like, we've kind of taken a deep dive on this with a lotof them and said, let's put you on an infrared camera and see what's the difference
between the tissue temperature for your healthy tissue and this area that you keepre-injuring.
And one of the things that's come up is when you have an old injury and it does keepre-injuring, very, very often that
(31:01):
you have a cold pool of tissue around that injury and your cardiovascular delivery ofoxygen and of nutrients that actually help that tissue heal is impaired.
And that's based on this chronic inflammation issue.
And again, that's something that we treat very effectively.
(31:21):
And we've seen kind of world-class athletes 10 years after an injury still having thesecold pools.
but you start treating in four or five weeks in from treating with photobiomodulation, allleveled out and reduced the tendency and risks of ongoing injuries of that same tissue.
That's really cool to hear that.
I know a lot of people who listen to my podcast get the thermography of total body or evenjust like upper body for the breast tissue so that you can see where cold pooling is
(31:49):
happening.
Even on the jaws, you'll see a lot of it for chronic TMJ and you'll see a lot of rednessin the neck, but you'll also see like elbows or wrists or hands even being cold pooled
too, just depending on what's going on.
So that is even relevant to those of you who are listening who are not.
athletes.
This is this can old in late carpal tunnel stuff.
(32:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even things like, you know, peripheral neuropathy, you start seeing that demyelinationof nerve tissue and it's really, a lot of that is metabolically based and we're seeing it
so much more because of the increase in pre-diabetes and diabetes, because of the lack ofmovement and standard American diet, a number of different factors.
(32:33):
But when you can see that drop in tissue,
kind of temperature relative to, and as a reflector or as a proxy for metabolic functionand blood delivery and really what you'd like to see happening in the tissue from a health
and wellness standpoint, it's just really powerful to see people who have a hard time togo, at the end of the spectrum of the performance guys, of the professional athletes,
(32:59):
people have a hard time going to go walk a mile being able to getting out and doing fivemiles because they've been able to
get that metabolic blocker bottleneck out of the system and really start working throughthat from a scaling standpoint.
So I a question about, you know, we're going from say a mile of walk to five.
(33:21):
With the use of dosage here, you know, obviously the biggest thing that I always have toremind people is you have to use it to get benefit.
It's not a one and done kind of thing.
You have to be consistent, really consistency wise, time.
What's what to, you know, on average, how much time and how many days a week for people toreally see progress.
(33:42):
So we advise 15 minutes a day.
And if you can, every day, but a minimum of four to five days a week, and you're going tosee really powerful changes.
The short-term changes are the inflammation drops very quickly.
The long-term changes are, particularly if it's something where you're seeing traumatictissue damage, you're recovering from an injury or a surgery, the recovery of the soft
(34:06):
tissue, and even bones, is really accelerated.
what you grow back from a, there's great histology slides.
So histology slides are essentially kind of cellular level like pictures of what'shappening in the cells.
And the histology slides showing the quality of the scar tissue that develops is night andday.
(34:31):
It's so much closer to your original tissue, so much more plastic, so much more mobile, somuch stronger, so much more robust.
scar tissue that is just night and day.
it's one of those things where even with things like C-sections, we've seen, you canreally see almost an invisible line there because people have started using this from a
(34:55):
dosing standpoint for being able to minimize the scar tissue size and kind of optimize thetype of scar tissue and the strength and plasticity of the scar tissue.
Wow, that's incredible because so many women do struggle with those darn scars and then itcan be numb and then I feel like it hits pelvic floor and there's all kinds of other
things too.
(35:16):
Now, let's talk about the belly for a second because you had briefly mentionedendometriosis.
We talked before we hit record about IBS and I think a lot of people are thinking like,how is it even going to get to my intestines?
How would it get to a uterus?
you know, how does it have an effect there?
Give us a little background on what you've seen there and probably some of the lymphaticmovement too.
is part of it as well with the light.
(35:38):
Absolutely, it really comes back down with IBS.
Actually, one of our business partners has IBS and which kind of flares into Crohn'soccasionally.
it's, you know, you can, you he would have these episodes where he would lose like 40 or50 pounds because he just, know, ended up in the hospital.
And then, you know, if you're on a training cycle, you lose anything that you've gained.
(36:02):
And it's very demoralizing from a, just kind of a mental health aspect as well.
But the...
it comes back to the same type of things that we're treating in general, which is reducedinflammation.
So in the gut, when you can reduce inflammation, you can actually start, you have thosetight junctions that you can actually start kind of, if you're having a standard American
(36:25):
diet, if there's microplastics in what you're eating and drinking, there's a number ofdifferent causes for why we're seeing leaky gut with.
more and more of our users.
But when you can reduce the inflammation, you actually, what's happening in the gut thereis when you have that leaky gut, you're actually always just consistently putting more
(36:47):
inflammation out into the systemically.
you become, you start having more immune issues, of autoimmune issues downstream fromthis.
When you can start kind of butting up those...
tight junctions in your gut more effectively by reducing the inflammation, people startseeing really powerful impacts from, know, IBS is one.
(37:11):
The other trigger for IBS that we see is this FB ratio, which essentially kind of, there'sa band too much on either end of the spectrum is not great, but there's a band of
different types of gut microbes.
And when you can measure them, typically, sorry for the funny way of phrasing it, but withpoop studies.
(37:38):
when you're outside of the healthy band, and you can actually, there's of tighter andtighter bands around healthier and healthier outcomes, but those are a big impact for that
IBS piece as well.
But I think the big one is reducing inflammation, helping to kind of shore up the leakygut and then
(37:59):
The kind of secondary impacts for that are shifting that FB ratio in a way that helps youwith that balance create more short chain fatty acids in the gut, which does a number of
things downstream.
And it's probably a bit of a rabbit hole to dive into, but how your gut senses satiety andthe different nutrients that it needs is really linked in with that as well.
(38:27):
There's some great kind of literature on this.
We've seen more and more.
It's been nice to have things like ozempic, but it'd be nice to be able to treat patientswith a more natural methodology that increases GLP-1 naturally.
And one of the things that you see with that is kind of that short-change fatty acid kindof, that the balance of your gut promoting more short-chain fatty acids as a kind of
(38:53):
production output of these bacteria.
And then the downstream impacts of that relative to your gut satiety and how your gutrecruits or triggers you to recruit additional nutrients.
it really is kind of a ball of wax, a can of worms to unwind there.
But it's a really powerful tool for being able to support better diet, tighter tight gutjunctions, and
(39:24):
less inflammation in the body overall.
That makes sense.
It makes sense.
definitely use Relay for my gut when it gets a little funky and I know it helps for sure.
Now I'm thinking, you know, that plus liver for a lot of folks too.
The fatty liver thing's a big deal as well.
you know, obviously I'm talking different protocols and whatnot and as a doc, I probablycould think of all kinds of fun things to do and show people with the acupuncture points.
(39:50):
But let's actually show people the device so that they can see what it looked like.
how it goes on the body and kind of give the breakdown in terms of why you designed it theway you did.
So, you know, for utility and whatnot, so folks can see that.
Absolutely, so I'm gonna show you as a demonstration of this, my kind of normal protocol.
(40:11):
We work with a lab out of Japan that's developed a protocol called the proximal prioritytherapy.
And the logic behind this was essentially treating, we interact with hemoglobin veryeffectively and we mentioned earlier kind of dissociating nitric oxide, dumping a bunch of
nitric oxide in your blood, really healthy for you systemically.
(40:35):
It's one of those things where there's a bit of a dive to have back into this, but there'sa very big paradigm shift from kind of thinking of the body as a two-gas system of oxygen
and carbon dioxide.
And I might be dating myself a little bit here, but that's what we learned coming throughschool to a three-gas system that now includes nitric oxide.
there's a lot to dive into and parse from that.
(40:57):
But the long story short is being able to dump a lot of this into your blood improves theplasticity of your...
blood vessels, so your cardiovascular endothelial tissue is the, I guess, the medical wayof referring to that.
And the plasticity there really is a powerful lever and a early diagnostic tool forcardiovascular disease and for general cardiopulmonary health.
(41:24):
But one way we found that's really powerful for doing this is taking the three modules andthen putting one on the back of the neck and then two over essentially the largest blood
vessels in your body.
And I started this protocol as part of a trial we were doing with the Japanese lab.
And what I found was I'm doing this for 15 minutes every morning with my emails, mycoffee.
(41:48):
And then I'm doing my lower gut about an inch and half below my navel for treating gut aswell.
again, these are kind of part of that proximal priority therapy.
One of the things that we found out of this is that affect or essentially your mood andhow you feel was really powerfully moved by this.
(42:13):
And I did this for about 10 days or 12 days and didn't see much, like keeping a journal onit, didn't see much movement.
After two weeks, you notice it, like you feel better.
Like, and you just approach every day with a little bit better optimism and mood.
again, the research calls this affect.
It's a very subjective thing to measure.
(42:34):
But the outcomes were so drastic with that that it was something I wanted to try and thatI've kept on since then.
And the one other thing that I noticed with this, just as an aside, this is very, again,of anecdotal, but it is in line with what we're seeing from the medical research as well,
is immune health.
I've got two boys, five and nine, and they always drag in colds and stuff from school.
(42:58):
I've been doing this protocol for a year and I just don't get sick.
And so it's just...
like the immune response that your gut, and again, kind of this cardiovascular impact haveis, and again, it's N of one, it's very anecdotal, but there are research studies showing
kind of outcomes for this.
One of the problems for this though, from a research standpoint is that it's somultivariate, your gut and the impact of gut on immune health, that it's really hard to
(43:26):
find that, like we've got the ABC, and then we've got this, we've got the ABC of whatwe're doing, and we have this XYZ of,
of what it's triggering.
And we know the changes that are kind of happening between those, but like what's actuallymediating that is still not 100 % agree.
There's different kind of schools of thought on that.
yeah, you get two researchers in a building and they've got three arguments having aboutsix different subjects.
(43:52):
I could see that.
could see that.
So interesting that the protocol like so because I'm called to do it this way because ofthe thyroid I've been jacked down that way versus the protocol being this way.
And I'm now going like, I don't know which way my husband wears it.
He probably does it the way you do it because he probably looks at videos or something.
But me, I always have it backwards.
So that's funny.
Maybe I'm gonna turn it around for a little bit.
(44:14):
But it's nice, though, again, with women, female hypothyroidism and the impacts of that,again, we just kind of looked into this over the last couple of years.
But it's so widespread.
It's really kind of like, feel like 60 or 70 % of women in paraminopause or menopause havethis hypothyroid impact.
(44:35):
And that's a huge number of people for it to not really have a more broadly kind ofavailable
best practice or approach.
think doing it as you're doing it is a really awesome way of doing that.
We'll see what happens still, N of one over here.
Oh, and just suggesting to other folks, I don't really know what's going on with myself,but it's interesting you said two weeks, because I think a lot of people this day and age
(45:01):
were used to like the magic pill situation.
And so giving it a little time and having a little patience is absolutely key.
Yes, patience and consistency.
That's, you know, again, we, one, one thing that I do, and I'd love to include this aswell, is we also talk to folks who are like, you know, let's, let's, so we say habit stack
(45:21):
it, find something that you do every day and then stack it with that.
And, and very often people will come back with like, like my meditation.
And, you know, if I ask, you know, how many times you've meditated in the last two weeksand it's one time, that's an aspirational habit.
That's not a habit habit, you know.
It doesn't have to be the healthiest habit you stack it with, but if it's Netflix andCheetos that you're doing every day, do it with that.
(45:47):
I love it.
love it.
Yeah, whatever, whatever will get you to do it and drinking coffee, most people are onthat jam or checking email as we said, maybe if that helps with mood and email, you know,
what it's worth.
So let's round out this podcast with some like fun stories of really cool transformationsyou've seen with folks, just really some of the coolest stuff you've seen.
(46:10):
I'd love to hear a couple stories.
Absolutely.
So there's two end of the spectrums are very exciting about that.
And the one end is we're seeing professional athletes who have very often as repetitivestress injuries.
So guys who are like, okay, I'm an ultra marathoner, but my feet are like, I'm going tohave to stop doing my job because I can't like plantar fasciitis.
(46:31):
Like the soft tissue impacts of that are just so heavy.
Those guys over a month period getting back in and kind of on the road and with no pain isa huge win.
We see very similar with kind of CrossFitters and Olympic lifters, their knees and theirhips.
They do so much kind of the same type of Olympic lift movements that their hips and theirknees just get worn out with it.
(46:55):
And so things like patellar tendonitis, being able to treat those and get those gut, Imean, and they can't believe it.
They're like, okay, I'll try anything.
Like, let's just see, let's, you know, judge the tree by the fruit type thing.
And seeing those guys get super excited about being able to go back in their career, likewhat they do for a living with kind of renewed vigor because they're empowered to actually
(47:19):
treat the pain points that were stopping them.
That's the one in the spectrum.
But for me, my favorites for this are what we see on the other end of the spectrum whereour aging users haven't been able to sleep through the night for 10 years and now they can
sleep through the night.
You know, my wife couldn't walk up the stairs.
She's walking up the stairs.
(47:39):
We're going on daily walks.
She's been having to use these little like scooter things in the grocery store.
She's walking everywhere now.
Those, that's what really gets me excited.
I think those are the ones that we, you know, we're a mission driven team and our missionis to increase the quality of life for the largest number of people we can in the most
measurable way we can.
And that's, those are the home runs that I take away from.
(48:02):
think a lot of people can relate to those.
mean, especially the sleep.
It's because it's not something folks will tend to think about as the glymphatics andwhatnot to help the brain drain to sleep.
super, super cool on that end.
So what's next for you guys?
I saw a little blip on the website about something maybe called Heal Plus.
We have a new product that's, so this product, the current Move Plus, actually has 808nanometer infrared and 660 nanometer deep red, and is really particularly dosed around
(48:35):
soft tissue, chronic pain, inflammation.
One of the things that's happened over the past four years that we've been developing andselling the Move Plus is more research into additional wavelengths.
and more research into kind of other areas of the body.
And so the Heal Plus will be treating gut specifically with four different wavelengths ofinfrared for the gut because those actually penetrate through better.
(49:01):
And you can dose with the Move Plus, but this is gonna be really dialed in specificallyfor gut tissue.
And it's gonna have huge impacts.
We're already seeing some amazing impacts.
it's interesting because on one side it's the GIs that we work with from a...
kind of interactive standpoint, the ones who have been most kind of positive or upbeatabout this have been immunologists because we get it into their hands and they just see
(49:26):
those outcomes and they're just excited to have it, you know, a non-pharmaceutical tool inthe toolkit.
that's been really powerful.
And then one more that I think will be exciting for you is later this year, which would beprobably more towards September, I believe.
So the Heal Plus will be out in May for delivery.
And then in September, we're going to be delivering what we're calling the Calm Plus,which is a transcutaneous vagus nerve stimulation device, which is just awesome.
(49:52):
That's one where the short-term impacts are much more noticeable, but it's triggeringfaster responses from the nervous system, from the neurological tissue.
And the reason we actually started in with that one was because we were developing our gutproduct and we noticed
in that development that every time we run a test, roughly 15 % of the users wouldn't geta great outcome from the different blood draws for brain and different things that we're
(50:23):
testing for from the brain impacts.
Because your gut is so tightly tied to your brain, it's kind of your second brain is whatwe're seeing from a research standpoint.
But those 15%, as we dove into it, essentially those guys were in fight or flight, justkind of high adrenal stress mode all the time.
And your vagus nerve is your highway of communication between the gut and the brain.
(50:48):
And so if that highway of communication has too much traffic, those signals just aren'tgetting through and you're not gonna see the best outcomes for the gut treatments as well.
So what we found was a great way to fix that was help people modulate their kind ofautonomic state.
So get them out of fight or flight and get them back into rest and digest.
(51:10):
And when you do that,
we're now up to like 99 % of the people seeing the outcomes that we were anticipating fromthe gut treatment.
cool.
Cool.
Well, I know a lot of folks are gonna be very excited to see your research and where tofind it.
So we'll definitely get that from you so that I can put it in our podcast notes atdrjcrowlcnd.com because boy, that's good stuff.
(51:32):
I am really excited to hear about that because guts are tough.
Guts are really tough to treat and, you know, trying to explain to folks about the nervoussystem is, and even sometimes they can be doing all the things and nothings.
too.
And that's, that's, not fair.
It's just not fair.
Yeah, and sometimes you just need a little bit of like, you need that 20 % boost to kindof get you out of the hole.
(51:56):
And we've found the same thing with treating joints is like, oh, if I just had a 20 %reduction in my inflammation and pain, I'll be back out walking and moving and training
and doing.
And oftentimes it's just kind of get, me get out of the hole so that I can actually seethe benefits of what I'm actually, what I'm committing to from a diet and exercise
standpoint.
And yeah, it's just an exciting thing to be able to kind of contribute to that forpeople's.
(52:20):
experience and journeys to health.
Well, I look forward to seeing that.
look forward to looking at the Heal Plus as well and checking out what else you guys gotgoing on over the next couple of years.
So, you so much for coming on.
I sincerely appreciate it.
Likewise, thank you for having me.
What a great discussion.
Yeah, look forward to more.
Look forward to more.
Thanks for the.
(52:42):
Hey fellow health junkie.
Thanks for listening to the health fix podcast.
If you enjoyed tuning in to help support me to get the word out about the podcast,subscribe rate and review and just get that word out.
Thanks again for listening.
the lymphatic system.
Essentially what we found through the research around this is that you're seeing a numberof different things improving out of this.
One is the clearance rates for different waste materials from the brain.
And that's really measured.
Those are typically blood draws.
(00:21):
And what's been assumed around this, although in some cases what we have is like the ABC,so kind of the dosing and how it's being used and how it's like
how it's triggering the XYZ of outcomes.
We don't have, in some cases, the mechanistic underpinning for this completely delineatedyet.
But the increase in clearance of different kind of waste proteins in the brain has beenmeasured relatively effectively in large scale studies.
(00:52):
Welcome to the Health Fix Podcast where health junkies get their weekly fix of tips, toolsand techniques to have limitless energy, sharp minds and fit physiques for life.
Hey health junkies on this episode of the Health Fix Podcast, I'm interviewing ForrestSmith.
He's the co-founder and CEO of Kinion, a red light therapy device that I've been using alot lately and digging.
(01:17):
Now here's the thing.
We talk about red light therapy, but we take it to another level with force.
We're talking about photo bio modulation that makes it sound super serious, right?
Well, here's the thing.
The Kinion device has a combination of red light, but it also has lasers in it to make iteven stronger.
And so this is some of the technology you want to be thinking about when you're looking atred light therapy and especially this day and age when we have lots of different devices
(01:44):
out there and you want to know what's best for you.
This particular device is very
targeted, it hones in on certain areas and gets to, let's say, the point, if you will, asyou hear me talk about a little bit later on how I'm using it on acupuncture points.
Now, one of the cool things that Forrest and I dive into on this podcast is we start totalk about how just 15 minutes a day, four to five days a week, you can reduce
(02:09):
inflammation.
And one of the specific areas that not too many people are talking about is thyroidinflammation.
So many folks have Hashimoto's thyroiditis and even one of the co-founders of Kinian does,and they found that this really helped him to reduce his inflammation.
And so in this podcast, we're going to be talking about a little twist on the usual chatabout red light and infrared therapy and pain.
(02:37):
We're going into talking about other things and even the concept that Kinian has movingforward for helping with
gut health, so using targeted laser therapy and red light therapy to help guts.
Who doesn't want to have something for their gut that they don't have to take copiousamounts of pills and things of that nature?
(02:58):
Yes, sign me up.
So we're gonna talk about why you wanna blend laser with red light therapy.
We're gonna talk about draining your brain of toxins using red light therapy.
We're also gonna go into really how this can impact and help your vagus nerve.
So stay tuned for some cool stuff that we are learning about.
(03:20):
And I'm like geeking out over basically in talking with Forrest about what his company hasbeen uncovering and using the latest research on red light therapy and lasers for helping
our bodies using photobiomodulation.
So let's introduce you to Forrest Smith, co-founder and CEO of Kinion.
(03:42):
Hey, health junkies, I have Forrest Smith on and he is the founder and CEO of Kinion andwe are talking about red light therapy today, but we're going to take it with a different
twist on what you guys have heard before on the podcast from me.
So Forrest, welcome to the Health Fix Podcast.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm super excited about the conversation today.
man, we've got all kinds of stuff to talk about.
Cause I geek out on red light.
It is my number one thing for recovery.
(04:04):
It's kind of, I'm kind of addicted to it.
I will be honest.
And since now trying out your device, I'm like, okay, this one has a whole nother it'sopened up new doors of red light therapy for me.
So of course I always love to start podcasts off by asking like, okay, how are you usingred light?
You kind of gave me a little hints, but you know, let's tell the folks who are listening,like how you're using it, how you came to get
(04:27):
obsessed with it perhaps and how you got to where you are today.
Hi, I it.
I've been a of a lifelong athlete, really competed up through university and then kind offell off as I started kind going through my career.
And one of the things that actually from an injury standpoint was a trigger for me forgetting into red light was a meniscus tear.
(04:52):
And the reason for that is with meniscus tears, you can't really do a great, there's nogood.
outcome from a surgery on this.
It's kind of 50-50 whether you're going to go up or down the outcome from the surgery.
I was actually out of competitive sports by the time I tore my meniscus.
And so, you know, what happens with that is it used to drive me out of my trainingpatterns by, you know, if I, there's certain movements that trigger inflammation and kind
(05:19):
of trigger pain in the, in the joints.
So overhead squats for some reason was just one of those that the movement pattern with itwas just not a lot of fun.
And so I would trigger that inflammation, my knee would swell up, it'd be blown up for afew weeks, and I couldn't really get that pain and inflammation down very quickly.
And I don't really like taking pharmaceuticals for it, so I just kind of stuck with beingout of the gym, out of training for weeks at a time, which really was kind of unfortunate
(05:48):
and had a negative impact on my overall mental health and physical health.
And so we have an opportunity with photobiomodulation or light therapy to be able to treatthat very effectively.
And I couldn't find anything on the market that was, there was a big gap between 30 to$50,000 really cool laser therapy devices that would sit on a desktop and had a wand and
(06:11):
you could hold on it and see amazing results and had great dosing.
Or there were kind of panels that don't dose very well and are kind of a genuine almostprototype level product.
because you're just strapping a bunch of LEDs on, you don't really have a set kind ofdosing pattern for those.
And in looking at that, we found that there was an opportunity to be able to developsomething that fit the difference there.
(06:36):
How do we get something clinical level with lasers included, passing all the regulatory,but sub $500 so people can actually afford to use it at home on a daily basis instead of
the $30,000 $50,000 version?
that's how we started with the...
with our first product with Kenyan is the Move Plus.
And it's been amazing.
(06:56):
What that's changed for me is two main things from a training standpoint is I'm kind ofmiddle-aged now, a tall cross-fitter.
My lower back doesn't love me for that.
lower back and then this old meniscus injury where it used to be weeks of time when itwould trigger, it's now a day and a half or two days because I can get that inflammation
(07:18):
back down super fast.
And I don't go back into 100%, but I can at least get it back into movement and trainingand then kind of scale back up on the weights within a couple of days versus weeks.
that's really kind of my, that's what kicked off my obsession or deep dive the rabbitholes of photobiomodulation.
(07:38):
man, I know that your story isn't uncommon, especially for a lot of us folks.
I'm also in my late 40s and we're looking at, more like mid to late 40s, I'm gonna saylate 40s, I'm aging myself, but we're looking at the devices and for a lot of people,
we're kind of trying to think, okay, well, where I hurt, some of these things just don'tmake sense.
(07:59):
Like a panel, I'm like, that's whole body to me.
I don't know how I'm pinpoint something, you know, and a lot of people do ask me thatthey're like, what kind of red light device is going to be best for me?
And I'm like, well, what are we working with here?
And what are we doing?
And of course, today, I'd love to kind of dive into that because I love using the Kenyanbecause it is specific to target.
have a slipped disc L5S1 and it's a pain in the butt, literally.
(08:25):
And so, you know, things like that for a lot of people are common.
But I think a lot of people, you know, they get the idea that red light therapy for pain.
Cool, okay, we get it.
But what I wanna kind of dive into and kind of the mechanism of why this works, talkingabout circulation, because we know circulation declines as we get older, talking about
nitric oxide, things of that nature, the mitochondria.
One of the biggies that's been kind of hot lately is the thyroid and talking about how wecan help use red light therapy to help with the thyroid.
(08:50):
So I would love to die.
That was a huge thing there for you, by the way, for us.
Let's geek out a little bit for folks to understand why laser-based red light therapy
gets deeper than just skin level stuff and how, you know, how we're targetingmitochondria, how we're targeting circulation a little
I love it.
It's a great question.
(09:10):
We spend tens of thousands of hours on this exact topic, building out mathematical modelsto show and demonstrate how photons move through tissue.
And then we also kind of use our mathematical models, these Monte Carlo models that webuild.
And then we test versus physiology because the key to the outcomes from light therapy isbiphasic dosing.
(09:34):
So the more you dose, you go up the hill from outcomes.
and then you jump the shark at some point.
So if you kind of overdose, it doesn't go back below zero.
These aren't kind of shark-based lasers.
They're not going to cut you in half or anything.
They're class one lasers.
They're not going to damage you.
But it can reduce the outcomes that you get if the dosing is not right.
(09:58):
So there's a sweet spot at the top of that hill from a dosing standpoint.
And what really drives that is how many photons are triggering photo acceptors in thebody.
And so what we've done from a dosing standpoint is look at what depth of tissue, becauseyou have a lot of different kind of layers of tissue, at what depth of tissue and at what
(10:18):
order of magnitude.
How many of these photo acceptors exist and where are they?
And we've worked backwards into how to dose from a photon delivery system.
And we actually, on one side of things, we do use an LED for our red light because redlight doesn't penetrate through as much.
And we're never going to see that going through to the depth of tissue that we're kind ofworking on from a targeting standpoint.
(10:42):
We do use a primary optic to be able to reduce that kind of typically LEDs, just to kindof give a bit of the background as the engineering side of this.
LEDs are a dye based technology.
They emit light in all directions from that ship until they're packaged into what lookslike a cup of an electrical electronic component.
(11:06):
that cup kind of pulls that back in from 360 degrees of emission to 120 degrees.
That's still extremely broad.
And it's also it also just continues to expand.
So if you're if you're in front of a panel, as an example, two inches forward or twoinches back changes that dose massively.
And, you don't know where you are on that hill of the biphasic dosing.
(11:26):
And so, you know, what we've done with the the laser piece is we've we use lasers for ourinfrared because that combination
lasers instead of spreading at 120 degrees, it's around three to four degrees of spreadand it doesn't continue to spread.
It's what they call collimated.
So it continues directly and more efficiently into the tissue for dosing internal tissue.
(11:51):
And what we're trying to do with our dosing model is dose both the superficial tissue,which is actually done very effectively with different types of beds and
The guys, for example, at Thor Laser make a really cool bed that doses really effectivelyfor the superficial tissue.
And your skin is your largest organ, so it's a good way to release a lot of nitric oxide,and there's some really cool benefits for those beds.
(12:18):
What we do more is target a combination of the superficial tissue and the internal tissueso that if you have soft tissue pain and inflammation, lower back issues, shoulder issues,
neck issues, osteoarthritis of the knee,
Particularly when these pathologies are driven primarily by inflammation, the outcomes areso much more powerful because you can target that internal tissue versus having the kind
(12:46):
of superficial tissue targeted and then some of the effects of that bleeding over intothat internal tissue.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah.
I think a lot of people don't realize because let's put it, you know, there's somecreative copy out there, right?
And you're reading down and it sounds like it's going to clear everything in, you know,red light therapy is amazing.
It's game or all you need is one device.
(13:07):
It's going to what I found, you know, is like some of these panels, especially the onesthat you could put on the body that have a heating kind of component, like, oh, those are
nice.
And you, especially if my belly hurts, you know, that that feels good, you know, but whenI'm wanting something like you said to target,
then we do need to consider having something that's a little bit more targeted.
(13:29):
Yeah, the laser collimation really, really helps.
there's also, think, just how you target this from a theoretical standpoint has reallyhelped us as well.
One of the things that we've noticed in, because it's still relatively early to markettechnology from red light therapy, and one of the things that we've seen is that a lot of
(13:52):
the targeting or the metrics that people use to measure
What they're dosing to your body is essentially the optical power levels coming out of thedevice or the optical power levels coming into the tissue.
And even within those, there's a big difference.
And as an example, with the Move Plus, we have 10 lasers per module, three modules, so 30lasers.
(14:19):
Originally, we didn't have that many.
We had, kind of based on the medical literature, just two, but with the same level ofpower.
What we found, though, is
And this is one of the things that took us down the kind of tens of thousands of hoursinto the mathematical modeling and physiological testing is that even if we stayed within
the best practices from the medical literature, the power levels delivery and having thatin 10 emitters instead of two made a huge difference for outcomes.
(14:50):
And so that kind of triggered the question for us of like, this doesn't really, why?
This is the same level of dosing according to how it's measured.
from the medical literature.
what we had to do is go back in and start really kind of parsing what's the best way tounderstand how our bodies are accepting these different photons and what's that triggering
(15:12):
from a signaling pathway.
And there are a number of different signaling pathways.
I think you mentioned nitric oxide.
It's a really big one that we trigger.
But there's a number of different things that are triggered by photobiomodulation when thedosing is correct.
And I think it's not really broadly known that, know, it's not just a power into yourtotal system as a physiology.
(15:37):
It's really targeting correctly with the right wavelengths, with the right frequencies,with the right power levels, et cetera, these different photo acceptors.
So start from what you want to trigger and work backwards.
It has become a much more effective way for us to work on the dosing modeling versus just,hey, this is one system
(15:57):
Let's put this much power into it, if that makes sense.
Absolutely makes sense.
You know, I think for for the average person, they may be thinking like, okay, so if Ineed to target it, what kind of device am I looking for?
And like, can I change the power within it?
Or do I need to like bring it back and forth?
(16:17):
What do I do?
You know, if you can kind of dumb it down a little bit for me even here, and then notsaying my audience is dumb, it's more me on this one to be like, okay, so
Do are there different times we put it in for?
Are there different, you know, distances?
Give me the scoop there.
So we recommend dosing be done at the skin level because otherwise it's extremely hard tobe consistent in the dose.
(16:45):
have whatever light therapy device you're using, make sure that it's on your skin and thatyou have an understanding of how that's going to be delivering this dosage kind of over
time.
We modulated it through time.
We wanted to make it as simple as we could.
When we designed our product, again, what we're comparing it with is these really kind of
The goal is to make it as low friction as possible so that people can use it at home andstack it with other things that they're doing.
(17:14):
If you're having coffee in the morning, being able to wear it makes it much morefunctional so that you're not having to hold it on yourself or stand in front of a panel
or something like this.
Making it travel friendly so if you're on an airplane, you can actually kind of use it aswell without the rubber gloves of security coming out to kind of make sure that your
batteries aren't going to blow up the plane.
(17:34):
We've been through extra SCC clearances for that.
But the main thing is reducing the friction for people to be able to use it.
In our assumption, means that they'll take it on more effectively and hopefully replacesomething like pharmaceutical solutions that they have for pain and inflammation.
But to take one step back, I think you made a really good comment about the kind of claimsthat we see around photobiomodulation or light therapy.
(18:04):
There's so many of these and we get this quite a lot.
We want to be very upfront and set expectations in a way that users are going to be veryhappy and have a great experience with this.
And I think one of the things that we get a question about a lot is how could it bepossible that you could treat so many different pathologies?
How is this not snake oil?
(18:24):
And I think one of the things that we really focus on with this is from a mechanisticstandpoint, we're treating chronic inflammation.
That's one of the main outcomes that you get out of this is reducing chronic inflammation,depending on where you're treating the body locally, but it's also, there's some protocols
that we can share in a moment about how to do that more systemically as well.
(18:47):
There's some nice high leverage points of the body for being able to treat.
And when you reduce chronic inflammation, chronic inflammation is such a scourge in thebody that when you can reduce it anywhere, you can really see some beneficial outcomes.
for different pathologies in that area.
And that's as far kind of as disparate as things like osteoarthritis and endometriosis.
(19:09):
And you're like, my knee and kind of female reproductive tissue, how could that possiblynot be a snake oil?
But the key is it's not necessarily treating specifically that pathology, it's treatingthe upstream cause or mechanism, which is that inflammation.
again, it's a deep one to dive into, but it's a very reasonable question for
(19:32):
a lot of people to ask because when you see something that's claiming such broad levels ofpathology treatment, there's over 7,000 studies on photobiomodulation now and they cover a
ton of these.
team contribute to this.
There's an international group cataloging and have a full database on drill downs intothese that I can share as well.
But it's a powerful tool for chronic and damaging inflammation in the body.
(19:57):
And I think that's the key takeaway that we try to give to people.
think that's great because I mean, think about it this way, oxidative stress leads toinflammation leads to breakdown of the body and as we're aging, like what's the best anti
aging thing we have, slow that process down.
And one of the things you know, I was going to put out there just as a note, and I do wantto talk about your the research that you guys are diving into.
(20:19):
So we could put something in the podcast notes, because a lot of folks are really wantingto learn more but also want that background now to make sure we're not talking snake oil.
One of the cool things I have thought about the Canadian device is that because it is sotargeted, you know, we were talking thyroid for a minute.
We also have acupuncture points that can be targeted as well.
And so as an acupuncturist, I geek out a little bit on it and I'll be like, Oh, I'm to putthis in certain places based on one, what I know to be connected for, for the inflammation
(20:48):
in the body.
Have you heard anybody else doing that?
Is anyone else playing around like me?
Yes, there's a couple of really cool labs out of China where kind of acupuncture is morebroadly adopted that have done great research on this.
We're actually seeing this relative to things like treatment.
And I've forgotten specific points that there's acupuncture points kind of like there'sEEG points where you have like a letter and a number specific to those.
(21:18):
And they're using different acupuncture points that are not local to
For example, Vegas nerve, but from which we're seeing really powerful autonomic nervoussystem impacts and there's a number of different things.
That's one that comes to mind just because we saw this last week.
I think it was a relatively recent, you know, in the last year study on this and measuredthrough, I believe, heart rate variability and some EEG data that they were pulling from
(21:44):
autonomic nervous state, really helping people get out of fight or flight kind of
sympathetic nervous system responses and into kind of that rest and digest phase.
And it's powerful.
think there's a lot, everything's connected and we see a couple of different things.
One is this idea of acupuncture and acupuncture points triggering high leverage outcomes.
(22:11):
One other one that I think is a really interesting one that you would like to geek out onprobably as well is
the lymphatic and glymphatic system.
you know, one of the things that we see with a lot, particularly with kind of our agingusers is if you're not sleeping enough, if your recovery is not great, you start
(22:33):
generating and aggregating more waste material in your brain.
And how can we get that waste material out of the brain?
Because it increases the risks for different types of dementia, for Alzheimer's, but alsojust you just don't feel
cognitively as aware or kind of alert.
And what we found is this system of glial cells and the glymphatic system is kind of whatthey've dubbed it is the glial cells clearing out the brain from these different waste
(23:04):
materials.
And then the lymphatic system kind of behind the cheekbones and then in the necks are kindof bottleneck points for that.
And so being able to treat the brain.
And then this lymphatic drainage system for that waste material has a powerful impact inclearing a lot of that waste material out of the brain.
That's so cool.
(23:25):
That's so cool.
And like, you know, lot of the points as I think about it are like close to theparasympathetic calming points too.
So you get two for ones.
And one of the things we do in our house all the time is we're walking around, my husbandin particular is walking around all the time with the device actually more behind the ears
a little bit, cause there's a point Chinese like called Anmian that's a calming pointwhere the vagus nerve comes.
(23:45):
out.
And so we're like, got their new necklace on patients to have that as t they can help toreally ge out.
Now let's talk a lit red light therapy, you kno never say photo bio modula
(24:06):
That's a mouthful.
thyroid, like moving the lymph nodes out of here.
What are we getting after?
Because I think for folks to like, okay, that's cool.
What is exactly happening?
Is it nitric oxide?
it heme?
What are we going after?
So what we're seeing right now from the...
(24:28):
So I think splitting those off into two different versions.
One is with the hypothyroidism and Hashimoto's, there's been more more research over thelast three to four years really demonstrating increased functionality out of the thyroid.
I'm blanking on the metrics, the biofeedback that they've measured for these, but it was avery...
(24:54):
substantial improvement from a thyroid function.
I think I mentioned before we started kind of chatting here, one of the reasons we startedon this research path is my business partner has Hashimoto's, which is essentially kind of
super hyper hypothyroidism.
And it's been tough for him because it affects energy levels.
(25:18):
as part of that research going down the rabbit hole of
know, how is photobiobiodenization moving the needle for this?
We've found that it actually is a really broadly experienced pathology for women, aroundparaminopause and menopause.
And this was, you know, our research team skews male, and it's just not something that wason our radar because of that.
(25:44):
And it's been really interesting to see these kind of double digit increases in keybiometrics around
thyroid function.
It also stacks very well with a couple of different supplements.
And so the two that have come up in multiple studies are vitamin D3 and selenium.
(26:07):
And those actually work on separate pathways from the photobiomodulation.
But I'll have to get you the actual research papers over and happy to kind of tag thosethrough and provide a little bit more summary on those.
because I don't have the biometrics that were in the papers in mind, but I do know it waskind of double-digit increases in thyroid function measured, typically with blood markers,
(26:34):
I believe.
But on the other side, with the lymphatic system, essentially what we found through theresearch around this is that you're seeing a number of different things
improving out of this.
One is the clearance rates for different waste materials from the brain.
(26:56):
And that's really measured.
Those are typically blood draws.
And what's been assumed around this, although in some cases what we have is like the ABC,so kind of the dosing and how it's being used and how it's like, how it's triggering the
XYZ of outcomes.
We don't have in some cases the mechanistic underpinning for this completely delineatedyet, but the increase in
(27:20):
clearance of different kind of waste proteins in the brain has been measured relativelyeffectively in large-scale studies.
And again, part of what this has been assumed to be is the increased level ofmitochondrial function.
And so there's a photo acceptor in the electron transport chain, the fourth phase of thatelectron transport chain called cytochrome C oxidase, where essentially
(27:49):
Particularly the infrared light triggers a dissociation of nitric oxide from that bindingsite.
And this isn't something that doesn't happen naturally.
What it does is it just increases the pace of that kind of dissociation.
And when you increase that pace, it's a bottleneck.
(28:09):
And so when you remove the bottleneck, what happens when the dosing is correct is that youessentially double your cellular energy generation in the form of ATP.
So you double the production capacity for this.
And there's a couple of things that happen kind of in that kind of nuclear retrogradesignaling from the mitochondria, which is, and you alluded to it earlier, is the oxidative
(28:34):
stress.
You start seeing a very short term, and we had a good analogy for this.
I was out in Texas recently and we got a good football analogy for it, which is.
Essentially, you spike these reactive oxygen species very short term, and then they dropand carry on for 24 to 48 hours in that lower state.
(28:56):
And our football analogy for that was you're essentially getting your mitochondria as afootball team to run more plays.
Like it's at the end of the game, you got your two minute drill, you're running moreplays.
That means you're going to get more yards, but it also means you're going to have moredropped passes.
And so that's the reactive oxygen species.
It kind of spikes short term.
but you're gonna see more touchdowns, is kind of see more of that energy generation andthe reduced oxidative stress downstream in that intracellular signaling.
(29:24):
Oh man, you know, all of us could use a little bit of that, one more plays in the game.
also, mean, energy as a whole, you know, when we think of energy, a lot of people aregonna think just like energy in the body, but we don't realize that energy's made every
single cell and every single place in the body.
So if we do have an injury or we do have a spot that's like a hot spot, let's call itthat, you know, where we tend to have pain, having something like this on board can be
(29:48):
really nice to be able to like, okay, pop it on, you know, afterwards, then you're notlimping for the next, yeah.
two days or limping two days later when things all catch up with you, that kind of thing.
So important, so important.
Yeah, it's great.
One of the things that we've we kind of coach with this is again habit stacking and whenyou're consistent with it, the quality of tissue, two big things.
(30:12):
One is re injuring the same tissue is very common and particularly with with a lot of theperformance athletes we work with professional cross fitters, the Olympic US weightlifting
team, know, NBA, NFL, special special forces guys, and they're really pushing their bodiesto the kind of
the margins of what a human can do.
(30:34):
But what we find out of that is they often re-injure the same tissue.
And when you see what they look like, we've kind of taken a deep dive on this with a lotof them and said, let's put you on an infrared camera and see what's the difference
between the tissue temperature for your healthy tissue and this area that you keepre-injuring.
And one of the things that's come up is when you have an old injury and it does keepre-injuring, very, very often that
(31:01):
you have a cold pool of tissue around that injury and your cardiovascular delivery ofoxygen and of nutrients that actually help that tissue heal is impaired.
And that's based on this chronic inflammation issue.
And again, that's something that we treat very effectively.
(31:21):
And we've seen kind of world-class athletes 10 years after an injury still having thesecold pools.
but you start treating in four or five weeks in from treating with photobiomodulation, allleveled out and reduced the tendency and risks of ongoing injuries of that same tissue.
That's really cool to hear that.
I know a lot of people who listen to my podcast get the thermography of total body or evenjust like upper body for the breast tissue so that you can see where cold pooling is
(31:49):
happening.
Even on the jaws, you'll see a lot of it for chronic TMJ and you'll see a lot of rednessin the neck, but you'll also see like elbows or wrists or hands even being cold pooled
too, just depending on what's going on.
So that is even relevant to those of you who are listening who are not.
athletes.
This is this can old in late carpal tunnel stuff.
(32:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even things like, you know, peripheral neuropathy, you start seeing that demyelinationof nerve tissue and it's really, a lot of that is metabolically based and we're seeing it
so much more because of the increase in pre-diabetes and diabetes, because of the lack ofmovement and standard American diet, a number of different factors.
(32:33):
But when you can see that drop in tissue,
kind of temperature relative to, and as a reflector or as a proxy for metabolic functionand blood delivery and really what you'd like to see happening in the tissue from a health
and wellness standpoint, it's just really powerful to see people who have a hard time togo, at the end of the spectrum of the performance guys, of the professional athletes,
(32:59):
people have a hard time going to go walk a mile being able to getting out and doing fivemiles because they've been able to
get that metabolic blocker bottleneck out of the system and really start working throughthat from a scaling standpoint.
So I a question about, you know, we're going from say a mile of walk to five.
(33:21):
With the use of dosage here, you know, obviously the biggest thing that I always have toremind people is you have to use it to get benefit.
It's not a one and done kind of thing.
You have to be consistent, really consistency wise, time.
What's what to, you know, on average, how much time and how many days a week for people toreally see progress.
(33:42):
So we advise 15 minutes a day.
And if you can, every day, but a minimum of four to five days a week, and you're going tosee really powerful changes.
The short-term changes are the inflammation drops very quickly.
The long-term changes are, particularly if it's something where you're seeing traumatictissue damage, you're recovering from an injury or a surgery, the recovery of the soft
(34:06):
tissue, and even bones, is really accelerated.
what you grow back from a, there's great histology slides.
So histology slides are essentially kind of cellular level like pictures of what'shappening in the cells.
And the histology slides showing the quality of the scar tissue that develops is night andday.
(34:31):
It's so much closer to your original tissue, so much more plastic, so much more mobile, somuch stronger, so much more robust.
scar tissue that is just night and day.
it's one of those things where even with things like C-sections, we've seen, you canreally see almost an invisible line there because people have started using this from a
(34:55):
dosing standpoint for being able to minimize the scar tissue size and kind of optimize thetype of scar tissue and the strength and plasticity of the scar tissue.
Wow, that's incredible because so many women do struggle with those darn scars and then itcan be numb and then I feel like it hits pelvic floor and there's all kinds of other
things too.
(35:16):
Now, let's talk about the belly for a second because you had briefly mentionedendometriosis.
We talked before we hit record about IBS and I think a lot of people are thinking like,how is it even going to get to my intestines?
How would it get to a uterus?
you know, how does it have an effect there?
Give us a little background on what you've seen there and probably some of the lymphaticmovement too.
is part of it as well with the light.
(35:38):
Absolutely, it really comes back down with IBS.
Actually, one of our business partners has IBS and which kind of flares into Crohn'soccasionally.
it's, you know, you can, you he would have these episodes where he would lose like 40 or50 pounds because he just, know, ended up in the hospital.
And then, you know, if you're on a training cycle, you lose anything that you've gained.
(36:02):
And it's very demoralizing from a, just kind of a mental health aspect as well.
But the...
it comes back to the same type of things that we're treating in general, which is reducedinflammation.
So in the gut, when you can reduce inflammation, you can actually start, you have thosetight junctions that you can actually start kind of, if you're having a standard American
(36:25):
diet, if there's microplastics in what you're eating and drinking, there's a number ofdifferent causes for why we're seeing leaky gut with.
more and more of our users.
But when you can reduce the inflammation, you actually, what's happening in the gut thereis when you have that leaky gut, you're actually always just consistently putting more
(36:47):
inflammation out into the systemically.
you become, you start having more immune issues, of autoimmune issues downstream fromthis.
When you can start kind of butting up those...
tight junctions in your gut more effectively by reducing the inflammation, people startseeing really powerful impacts from, know, IBS is one.
(37:11):
The other trigger for IBS that we see is this FB ratio, which essentially kind of, there'sa band too much on either end of the spectrum is not great, but there's a band of
different types of gut microbes.
And when you can measure them, typically, sorry for the funny way of phrasing it, but withpoop studies.
(37:38):
when you're outside of the healthy band, and you can actually, there's of tighter andtighter bands around healthier and healthier outcomes, but those are a big impact for that
IBS piece as well.
But I think the big one is reducing inflammation, helping to kind of shore up the leakygut and then
(37:59):
The kind of secondary impacts for that are shifting that FB ratio in a way that helps youwith that balance create more short chain fatty acids in the gut, which does a number of
things downstream.
And it's probably a bit of a rabbit hole to dive into, but how your gut senses satiety andthe different nutrients that it needs is really linked in with that as well.
(38:27):
There's some great kind of literature on this.
We've seen more and more.
It's been nice to have things like ozempic, but it'd be nice to be able to treat patientswith a more natural methodology that increases GLP-1 naturally.
And one of the things that you see with that is kind of that short-change fatty acid kindof, that the balance of your gut promoting more short-chain fatty acids as a kind of
(38:53):
production output of these bacteria.
And then the downstream impacts of that relative to your gut satiety and how your gutrecruits or triggers you to recruit additional nutrients.
it really is kind of a ball of wax, a can of worms to unwind there.
But it's a really powerful tool for being able to support better diet, tighter tight gutjunctions, and
(39:24):
less inflammation in the body overall.
That makes sense.
It makes sense.
definitely use Relay for my gut when it gets a little funky and I know it helps for sure.
Now I'm thinking, you know, that plus liver for a lot of folks too.
The fatty liver thing's a big deal as well.
you know, obviously I'm talking different protocols and whatnot and as a doc, I probablycould think of all kinds of fun things to do and show people with the acupuncture points.
(39:50):
But let's actually show people the device so that they can see what it looked like.
how it goes on the body and kind of give the breakdown in terms of why you designed it theway you did.
So, you know, for utility and whatnot, so folks can see that.
Absolutely, so I'm gonna show you as a demonstration of this, my kind of normal protocol.
(40:11):
We work with a lab out of Japan that's developed a protocol called the proximal prioritytherapy.
And the logic behind this was essentially treating, we interact with hemoglobin veryeffectively and we mentioned earlier kind of dissociating nitric oxide, dumping a bunch of
nitric oxide in your blood, really healthy for you systemically.
(40:35):
It's one of those things where there's a bit of a dive to have back into this, but there'sa very big paradigm shift from kind of thinking of the body as a two-gas system of oxygen
and carbon dioxide.
And I might be dating myself a little bit here, but that's what we learned coming throughschool to a three-gas system that now includes nitric oxide.
there's a lot to dive into and parse from that.
(40:57):
But the long story short is being able to dump a lot of this into your blood improves theplasticity of your...
blood vessels, so your cardiovascular endothelial tissue is the, I guess, the medical wayof referring to that.
And the plasticity there really is a powerful lever and a early diagnostic tool forcardiovascular disease and for general cardiopulmonary health.
(41:24):
But one way we found that's really powerful for doing this is taking the three modules andthen putting one on the back of the neck and then two over essentially the largest blood
vessels in your body.
And I started this protocol as part of a trial we were doing with the Japanese lab.
And what I found was I'm doing this for 15 minutes every morning with my emails, mycoffee.
(41:48):
And then I'm doing my lower gut about an inch and half below my navel for treating gut aswell.
again, these are kind of part of that proximal priority therapy.
One of the things that we found out of this is that affect or essentially your mood andhow you feel was really powerfully moved by this.
(42:13):
And I did this for about 10 days or 12 days and didn't see much, like keeping a journal onit, didn't see much movement.
After two weeks, you notice it, like you feel better.
Like, and you just approach every day with a little bit better optimism and mood.
again, the research calls this affect.
It's a very subjective thing to measure.
(42:34):
But the outcomes were so drastic with that that it was something I wanted to try and thatI've kept on since then.
And the one other thing that I noticed with this, just as an aside, this is very, again,of anecdotal, but it is in line with what we're seeing from the medical research as well,
is immune health.
I've got two boys, five and nine, and they always drag in colds and stuff from school.
(42:58):
I've been doing this protocol for a year and I just don't get sick.
And so it's just...
like the immune response that your gut, and again, kind of this cardiovascular impact haveis, and again, it's N of one, it's very anecdotal, but there are research studies showing
kind of outcomes for this.
One of the problems for this though, from a research standpoint is that it's somultivariate, your gut and the impact of gut on immune health, that it's really hard to
(43:26):
find that, like we've got the ABC, and then we've got this, we've got the ABC of whatwe're doing, and we have this XYZ of,
of what it's triggering.
And we know the changes that are kind of happening between those, but like what's actuallymediating that is still not 100 % agree.
There's different kind of schools of thought on that.
yeah, you get two researchers in a building and they've got three arguments having aboutsix different subjects.
(43:52):
I could see that.
could see that.
So interesting that the protocol like so because I'm called to do it this way because ofthe thyroid I've been jacked down that way versus the protocol being this way.
And I'm now going like, I don't know which way my husband wears it.
He probably does it the way you do it because he probably looks at videos or something.
But me, I always have it backwards.
So that's funny.
Maybe I'm gonna turn it around for a little bit.
(44:14):
But it's nice, though, again, with women, female hypothyroidism and the impacts of that,again, we just kind of looked into this over the last couple of years.
But it's so widespread.
It's really kind of like, feel like 60 or 70 % of women in paraminopause or menopause havethis hypothyroid impact.
(44:35):
And that's a huge number of people for it to not really have a more broadly kind ofavailable
best practice or approach.
think doing it as you're doing it is a really awesome way of doing that.
We'll see what happens still, N of one over here.
Oh, and just suggesting to other folks, I don't really know what's going on with myself,but it's interesting you said two weeks, because I think a lot of people this day and age
(45:01):
were used to like the magic pill situation.
And so giving it a little time and having a little patience is absolutely key.
Yes, patience and consistency.
That's, you know, again, we, one, one thing that I do, and I'd love to include this aswell, is we also talk to folks who are like, you know, let's, let's, so we say habit stack
(45:21):
it, find something that you do every day and then stack it with that.
And, and very often people will come back with like, like my meditation.
And, you know, if I ask, you know, how many times you've meditated in the last two weeksand it's one time, that's an aspirational habit.
That's not a habit habit, you know.
It doesn't have to be the healthiest habit you stack it with, but if it's Netflix andCheetos that you're doing every day, do it with that.
(45:47):
I love it.
love it.
Yeah, whatever, whatever will get you to do it and drinking coffee, most people are onthat jam or checking email as we said, maybe if that helps with mood and email, you know,
what it's worth.
So let's round out this podcast with some like fun stories of really cool transformationsyou've seen with folks, just really some of the coolest stuff you've seen.
(46:10):
I'd love to hear a couple stories.
Absolutely.
So there's two end of the spectrums are very exciting about that.
And the one end is we're seeing professional athletes who have very often as repetitivestress injuries.
So guys who are like, okay, I'm an ultra marathoner, but my feet are like, I'm going tohave to stop doing my job because I can't like plantar fasciitis.
(46:31):
Like the soft tissue impacts of that are just so heavy.
Those guys over a month period getting back in and kind of on the road and with no pain isa huge win.
We see very similar with kind of CrossFitters and Olympic lifters, their knees and theirhips.
They do so much kind of the same type of Olympic lift movements that their hips and theirknees just get worn out with it.
(46:55):
And so things like patellar tendonitis, being able to treat those and get those gut, Imean, and they can't believe it.
They're like, okay, I'll try anything.
Like, let's just see, let's, you know, judge the tree by the fruit type thing.
And seeing those guys get super excited about being able to go back in their career, likewhat they do for a living with kind of renewed vigor because they're empowered to actually
(47:19):
treat the pain points that were stopping them.
That's the one in the spectrum.
But for me, my favorites for this are what we see on the other end of the spectrum whereour aging users haven't been able to sleep through the night for 10 years and now they can
sleep through the night.
You know, my wife couldn't walk up the stairs.
She's walking up the stairs.
(47:39):
We're going on daily walks.
She's been having to use these little like scooter things in the grocery store.
She's walking everywhere now.
Those, that's what really gets me excited.
I think those are the ones that we, you know, we're a mission driven team and our missionis to increase the quality of life for the largest number of people we can in the most
measurable way we can.
And that's, those are the home runs that I take away from.
(48:02):
think a lot of people can relate to those.
mean, especially the sleep.
It's because it's not something folks will tend to think about as the glymphatics andwhatnot to help the brain drain to sleep.
super, super cool on that end.
So what's next for you guys?
I saw a little blip on the website about something maybe called Heal Plus.
We have a new product that's, so this product, the current Move Plus, actually has 808nanometer infrared and 660 nanometer deep red, and is really particularly dosed around
(48:35):
soft tissue, chronic pain, inflammation.
One of the things that's happened over the past four years that we've been developing andselling the Move Plus is more research into additional wavelengths.
and more research into kind of other areas of the body.
And so the Heal Plus will be treating gut specifically with four different wavelengths ofinfrared for the gut because those actually penetrate through better.
(49:01):
And you can dose with the Move Plus, but this is gonna be really dialed in specificallyfor gut tissue.
And it's gonna have huge impacts.
We're already seeing some amazing impacts.
it's interesting because on one side it's the GIs that we work with from a...
kind of interactive standpoint, the ones who have been most kind of positive or upbeatabout this have been immunologists because we get it into their hands and they just see
(49:26):
those outcomes and they're just excited to have it, you know, a non-pharmaceutical tool inthe toolkit.
that's been really powerful.
And then one more that I think will be exciting for you is later this year, which would beprobably more towards September, I believe.
So the Heal Plus will be out in May for delivery.
And then in September, we're going to be delivering what we're calling the Calm Plus,which is a transcutaneous vagus nerve stimulation device, which is just awesome.
(49:52):
That's one where the short-term impacts are much more noticeable, but it's triggeringfaster responses from the nervous system, from the neurological tissue.
And the reason we actually started in with that one was because we were developing our gutproduct and we noticed
in that development that every time we run a test, roughly 15 % of the users wouldn't geta great outcome from the different blood draws for brain and different things that we're
(50:23):
testing for from the brain impacts.
Because your gut is so tightly tied to your brain, it's kind of your second brain is whatwe're seeing from a research standpoint.
But those 15%, as we dove into it, essentially those guys were in fight or flight, justkind of high adrenal stress mode all the time.
And your vagus nerve is your highway of communication between the gut and the brain.
(50:48):
And so if that highway of communication has too much traffic, those signals just aren'tgetting through and you're not gonna see the best outcomes for the gut treatments as well.
So what we found was a great way to fix that was help people modulate their kind ofautonomic state.
So get them out of fight or flight and get them back into rest and digest.
(51:10):
And when you do that,
we're now up to like 99 % of the people seeing the outcomes that we were anticipating fromthe gut treatment.
cool.
Cool.
Well, I know a lot of folks are gonna be very excited to see your research and where tofind it.
So we'll definitely get that from you so that I can put it in our podcast notes atdrjcrowlcnd.com because boy, that's good stuff.
(51:32):
I am really excited to hear about that because guts are tough.
Guts are really tough to treat and, you know, trying to explain to folks about the nervoussystem is, and even sometimes they can be doing all the things and nothings.
too.
And that's, that's, not fair.
It's just not fair.
Yeah, and sometimes you just need a little bit of like, you need that 20 % boost to kindof get you out of the hole.
(51:56):
And we've found the same thing with treating joints is like, oh, if I just had a 20 %reduction in my inflammation and pain, I'll be back out walking and moving and training
and doing.
And oftentimes it's just kind of get, me get out of the hole so that I can actually seethe benefits of what I'm actually, what I'm committing to from a diet and exercise
standpoint.
And yeah, it's just an exciting thing to be able to kind of contribute to that forpeople's.
(52:20):
experience and journeys to health.
Well, I look forward to seeing that.
look forward to looking at the Heal Plus as well and checking out what else you guys gotgoing on over the next couple of years.
So, you so much for coming on.
I sincerely appreciate it.
Likewise, thank you for having me.
What a great discussion.
Yeah, look forward to more.
Look forward to more.
Thanks for the.
(52:42):
Hey fellow health junkie.
Thanks for listening to the health fix podcast.
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Thanks again for listening.
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