July 9, 2025 • 45 mins
In this episode of The HealthFix Podcast, Dr. Jannine Krause sits down with Dr. Ali Navidi, a gut-brain therapy specialist and co-founder of GI Psychology - a nationwide gut-brain axis focused psychology clinic, to explore how chronic gastrointestinal problems are often rooted in the nervous system — not just the gut.
You’ll learn:
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🧠 How Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and hypnosis are scientifically proven to help rewire gut-brain communication
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🍽️ Why conditioned food sensitivities could be keeping you in unnecessary dietary prison
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⚡ The power of anchors to manage pain and anxiety in real-time
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💓 The crucial role of the vagus nerve in regulating digestion and emotional well-being
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📲 How telehealth therapy is making gut-brain healing accessible nationwide
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🧒 Why kids often respond faster than adults to gut-brain strategies
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🔮 What the future of gut-brain therapy looks like — including tech and tools that are revolutionizing treatment
Whether you're dealing with IBS, chronic bloating, food sensitivity, or just sick of restrictive diets, this episode offers a fresh, science-backed perspective on what might really be going on in your body.
🔗 Mentioned in This Episode:
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Dr. Ali Navidi – Gut-Brain Therapy Expert
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Learn more: https://gipsychology.com/
- Schedule a free consult: https://gipsychology.clientsecure.me/request/service
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Take the “What’s Accelerating Your Aging?” Quiz – Click HERE
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Ali Navidi, welcome to the Health Fix Podcast.
Well, I am happy to be here, Janine, and I'm eager to get started talking about all thenerdy gut brain stuff that we can handle.
Well, I have no doubt that folks listening are going to be excited because I haven'ttalked a ton about nerd now, basically on the gut.
(00:26):
I talk about it here and there.
I talk about his foundation, but he brought up something before he hit record that I thinkis really fascinating to bring forward because you'll hear from the functional medicine
space and the natural medicine space gut up and you mentioned brain down to the gut.
And I'm like, you know what?
Both work and they both work in terms of how we're a
(00:48):
approaching certain clients and certain situations.
And in particular, I'm gonna bring up a couple cases I've had and we'll geek out on thoseas we move through.
But in particular, just thinking about how important just having a connected body is.
yeah, yeah.
And sometimes my patients are surprised when they find out how much of an effect theirbrain has on their body.
(01:19):
And what I tell them is, look, you know, you've got a brain and you've got a body, but youalso have a neck and that really, you know, it connects the two very powerfully.
So I'd love to hear those cases that you're talking about.
Yeah, you know, it's funny.
You know, we got a neck, we get a chest, we've got other things in there as well.
(01:41):
And you know, one of the cases in particular that comes up, you know, as I knew I wasgonna be speaking with you, is one in which I will see women in particular, perimenopause,
menopause time of life, we tend to feel disconnected or feel like we're a stranger in ourown bodies because we've got roller coaster emotions.
Sometimes you'll say something and be like, who was that?
(02:04):
I don't even know, know, someone on my shoulder, what's going on?
And in particular, this is also a time when if someone had gut issues previously, thingscan show back up or will have new gut issues start to show up as hormones flux.
And one of my most memorable folks is a gal who was complaining about SIBO.
So small intestine bowel overgrowth.
(02:26):
And she had done all the things, all the things.
And still we would go back to
Where's your vagus nerve?
Where's your nervous system connection?
So I'd love for you to dive into when folks have done all the things for the gut andthere's still that nervous system connection where there's that anxiety, there's that,
don't feel so good in my body.
(02:48):
Let's talk about that.
That's funny um that you brought that up because I was also thinking of a patient, uhAlex, patient's name is Alex.
And they had uh gone into the Middle East and then come back with Middle East respiratoryvirus.
(03:08):
I think there's a specialized virus.
Anyway, they had all these symptoms and then they blasted him with antibiotics.
And then following that,
Um, you know, the virus was gone, but he kept having symptoms, kept having problems.
And he went all to all the right places and did all the right things in terms of standardWestern medicine.
(03:32):
Um, and he couldn't get any help.
And then he found a naturopathic doctor and got maybe like 50 % there.
And the, he had developed SIBO.
over, over that time.
And that was causing a lot of trouble, but that last 50%, he just couldn't, couldn't getthere.
(03:54):
And, and he was crippled.
He was really crippled.
He couldn't work.
couldn't, he had such discomfort and pain and essentially what we call functionaldyspepsia.
So kind of like the upper GI, um, but responded amazingly to clinical hypnosis and
(04:15):
cognitive behavioral therapy, that combination within about, I think, 10 sessions, he wassymptom free.
Um, but it just goes to show you, know, you got to find the right pieces for the puzzle.
And sometimes when you've tried everything else, that last piece is the central nervoussystem.
(04:38):
Right.
So I absolutely agree with what you said.
I'm glad you say the last piece when we've gone through all the other things is thecentral nervous system because I've tried over and over to convey it to a lot of folks and
and sometimes I think it just needs to be said by someone else it's kind like the momsaying it and we need someone else in the department to to say it.
(04:59):
Now when we're looking at cognitive therapy when we're looking at hypnosis a lot of folkswill be like man what what are we
doing, like what's going on in particular, you know, lot of folks probably understand on abase level, you know, cognitive, but hypnosis, how does that work for the central nervous
system?
How are you implementing it?
(05:20):
Give us a, give us a background there.
I think, um, I think there's a few things I want to explain so that people get the rightcontext.
Uh, so first, um, let's just talk about what hypnosis is and what it isn't.
Right.
And the, and the problem I think with hypnosis is that everybody knows about it and whatthey know is entertainment hypnosis, right?
(05:46):
They know mind control, they know magic, they know all that wacky stuff and what theydon't know.
is clinical hypnosis and clinical hypnosis has at this point, 40 years of research ofusing hypnosis on GI problems.
(06:07):
And the research is amazing.
I mean, we're talking about hundreds of studies, all uniformly effective.
And it's a tragedy to me that people don't know about that side of hypnosis, right?
uh
without spending too much time on it, let's just separate all the entertainment stuff andwe'll say this clinical hypnosis is a whole other thing.
(06:31):
How does it help with the gut?
Well, you've already probably taught your audience well that there's a very powerful gutbrain axis and that what happens in the gut can affect the brain and what happens in the
brain can affect the gut.
Well, what we often see in patients with gut
issues is something called hypervigilance.
(06:54):
And it's this unconscious, anxious scanning of the body and of the gut, particularly ifthere's a problem area and the brain is always going there looking, how's it feeling?
I don't know.
It doesn't quite feel right.
And it's always getting, and when it finds something it doesn't like, then thecatastrophizing kicks in.
(07:15):
my gosh, what's, I'm not going to be able to go out today.
This is a bad day.
I shouldn't really try to eat it.
oh So they start catastrophizing and then all that anxiety and stress get funneled rightinto the gut.
And then the symptoms actually increase.
And then all those symptoms feed back up to the brain and they get amplified and distortedby something called visceral hypersensitivity.
(07:45):
So we've got these three components, right?
The anxious scanning and catastrophizing, the visceral hypersensitivity, which amplifiesit, and the powerful gut-brain connection.
And that creates this really nasty cycle that traps a lot of people in symptoms.
I think this happens so often for folks, especially in chronic gut issues.
(08:11):
yes.
Yeah, on the chronic side, absolutely.
It seems, know, when I'm looking through them and just scanning through my brain about thedifferent cases I've had, know, SIBO obviously is the top one in my mind because I've seen
people go through so many different protocols and all the way down to like, you know,eating nothing and they still have symptoms and it's like, I'm guessing you've seen that
(08:38):
too.
yeah, yeah.
We, mean, we'll often see patients come to us where they essentially have something calledRFID.
And I'm sure you're familiar like avoidant restrictive food intake disorder, meaningthey've systematically reduced their diet to the point where it's negatively affecting
(09:04):
their life.
It's negatively affecting their health.
And the sad thing is they're doing it to either avoid pain or to increase health, butthey're getting the opposite effect.
And sadly, I'll admit that I've gone through this in my practice of like, am I causingmore trouble than good with elimination diets and these kind of things when it comes down
(09:29):
to a very chronic case of folks.
It's like, ooh, I don't know if we're doing the right thing.
I think also there's a lot of danger when people do these things on their own.
So as an example, there's a few different diets out there.
One of them is FODMAP.
Another example would be AIP diet.
(09:52):
And both of these can be very strict, you're not meant to stay on it.
their elimination diets, meaning you go on it and then you reintroduce things back later.
And I don't know that people always do the reintroduction part because either they don'tknow they should or they get anxious about reintroducing that food and they're just not
(10:19):
able to do it.
I think both are things that I've seen when folks have come to me and the anxiety aroundfood.
I'm sure you've heard this too.
Many people will be like, I don't want to eat out.
I bring my own food everywhere.
Yes.
Yes, is.
No, that's, and just the image, that image, you know, you're at a rest.
(10:42):
You just imagine everybody, all your friends or family, they're at a restaurant, they'rejoining themselves, they're eating.
And then you've got this little sad little sack there um and you don't get to have thatsame enjoyment.
um So we'll work with a lot of patients like this, where they've got that, that centralnervous system component.
(11:03):
Maybe they've
And we, often work with naturopaths and, and they'll cause we, we don't know SIBO like youall, and we're not, we're not able to treat it.
That's not our specialty.
So, so you all will be treating the SIBO and there'll be a certain percentage that needthat nervous system component.
(11:23):
And so they'll kind of stall out in their progress.
And so that we've got a few naturopaths around the country that, that send those patientsto us.
And then what you see is they get this, they start improving pretty quickly when that'sthe missing piece.
And then after they've desensitized their system, then we work with them on reintroducingthe food.
(11:52):
Because while they still have this hypervigilant, visceral hypersensitivity kind of spiralhappening, it's really hard to reintroduce food because they're very likely to have a bad
reaction to it.
Not because the food is bad for them, but because their system is just running hot.
(12:13):
m Let's talk about the system running hot because that's one of the things a lot of folks,know, it's hard to tease out because you associate the food being the problem and it's
hard to be like, wait, no, it's my nervous system.
So how do you work with the cognitive, like CBT and how do you work with different, youknow, I guess the quick.
(12:36):
Not the quick, but the hot terms rewiring the brain per se.
And I don't know if you use that term.
I'm curious as to what your term would be for helping someone in this case and havingthese reactions.
Well, an example, one thing you want to educate them on is this phenomenon calledconditioned food sensitivity.
And most, most patients that are in this situation don't even know that's a thing.
(13:00):
They know about food sensitivity.
They know, you know, like I eat this food and bad things happen.
but they don't know that there's a percentage of that that can be conditioned.
That's nervous system based.
The symptoms are still real.
the reaction in the gut or the reaction in the body, 100 % real, but the cause is notbecause the food is not getting along with the body.
(13:25):
It's the causes that their nervous system has conditioned them.
So how could that happen?
An example, let's say someone is just having a bad day.
Maybe they're stressed out.
Maybe their system isn't just feeling good that day and they happen to eat pizza and theyhave a bad reaction.
(13:46):
So then there's a part of their brain that's going to be like, huh, pizza.
I don't know about you.
And then the next time they eat pizza, that part of their brain is going to pop up againand going to be like, I remember what happened last time we ate pizza.
And there's going to be this increased hypervigilance.
(14:07):
And then if anything starts feeling weird in the gut, catastrophizing, man, I knew it.
I knew I shouldn't have eaten that pizza.
See, I'm gonna have a bad day.
My gut's gonna give me trouble.
And at that point, all that stress and anxiety feed down to the gut and it's aself-fulfilling prophecy.
(14:28):
and now they're sure that pizza is bad for them.
And every time they have that experience, it reinforces itself until that reaction isessentially automatic.
sense that makes sense oh man so so how do you undo that what's what's the what's thestory on undoing that
(14:51):
So we get back to our buddies, uh cognitive behavioral therapy and clinical hypnosis.
And by the way, cognitive behavioral therapy is fairly well known.
um What we're talking about here is a very specific type and a very specific protocolwithin it.
So if you just go out into your community and just pick a random CBT therapist, it's verylikely they won't know what to do with a GI problem.
(15:17):
I just want to put that warning out because I've seen that happen.
very frequently.
uh So you're going to use that cognitive behavioral therapy to uh to reduce and changethat hypervigilance and that catastrophizing.
You're going to teach the brain how to how to think and react in new ways.
(15:40):
That's not just an intellectual thing.
That's also just an experiential thing.
And then you're and then that's where clinical hypnosis it
It's a tool that can do so many different things, but one of the things it does that Idon't really know of a better way to do it is it can directly reduce the visceral
(16:01):
hypersensitivity.
And that's a, that's a really powerful thing because the sensations from these people'sguts are not actually bad.
It's just that the brain has learned to amplify and distort them.
It's kind of like the metaphor I use is if you're listening to music, you know, and yougot headphones on and as a joke, someone goes and like cranks the volume up really high.
(16:30):
It's not like the music's bad.
It's just.
the volume has been cranked up really high, so you're not gonna enjoy it.
In fact, it's gonna be painful.
And that's kind of what happens to sensations in the gut.
Wow, know, lot of people right now might be thinking like, okay, you know, is hypnosisthen maybe reducing histamines or is it maybe reducing, you know, adjusting serotonin and
(16:58):
dopamine, neurochemical or GABA, you know, are there any studies that highlight theneurochemical effect?
Just out of curiosity and it's more me asking on the studies, like just so I can relaythings to folks or anything that.
it's a great question.
And I'm more ignorant than I should be about the biochemical effects.
(17:22):
know as an example, I know I remember reading one study, it was out of Italy and they wereusing hypnosis and they actually found uh
that after the hypnosis, saw epigenetic effects and also reduction of immune response.
(17:45):
Yeah.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
And, and they've done brain studies also.
I'm just, that's, I'm like a, I'm a clinical guy and I just like to treat the patients.
Um, but there's a lot of studies out there looking at, you know, FMRI and different thingslike that.
Um, it's one of those things where it's surprisingly well studied.
(18:07):
If you go into something like PubMed, just type hypnosis in you'll get
thousands of research articles studying hypnosis.
um Yeah.
So, but I, but I don't want to like make anything up and, the research is out there.
It's just, I'm not the man who knows it.
(18:27):
You're fine.
You're fine.
I asked just because a lot of people might be interested, but me, I'm always like, oh,where can I geek out more?
Right?
Where can I geek out more?
Now, of course, I usually start podcasts off with this question, but I'm going to throw itin now just for fun.
What brought you to really looking at the gut brain axis and all of this?
What was what was going on in your world when you're like, there's something here.
(18:52):
Actually, I fell backwards into it.
I was a microbiology major.
I was working in biotech and I just started reading more and more about psychology, abouthypnosis, about, and I loved it, but I never actually put it together that I could do that
(19:14):
for a profession.
I was about to start a PhD in biochemistry.
Um, and luckily my wife was like, you might want to actually do something you arepassionate about.
I was like, okay, well, yeah, like, yes.
Best, best advice I've ever gotten in my life.
(19:37):
Right.
so then I switched gears and you know, long story short, I've got my own practice.
I'm using hypnosis all the time.
I'm using CBT all the time.
And I didn't know it when I first started, but.
Like I mentioned before, hypnosis is an amazing tool for GI problems.
(19:58):
And, and so I started with one patient and got great results and then did it with anotherand another, and then their doctors found out and they started referring to me.
And, and it was just, I think, basically a need thing.
There just wasn't anyone else in the area doing this kind of work.
And I was the only one there doing it.
So slowly it was like eventually 80%.
(20:22):
of the patients I was seeing became GI patients because there were so many of them andthere was nowhere else to go.
And that's actually why I started GI psychology.
Why myself and another psychologist started it because it was frustrating and sad to knowthat, you know, like once I was full, there wasn't anyone else in the DC Metro area who
(20:47):
could help these types of patients.
And I thought that was crazy.
And so we started this practice and we've grown very quickly since then.
I can imagine, mean, second to fatigue, gut issues are the number two thing that folks seeme for.
then, of course, hormonal is in there, you know, in the mix too.
(21:11):
And right now, I mean, it is hard to find folks.
that are specialized, right?
And of course I wanna highlight, you I of course had to ask him like, really, you can seepeople in every state.
So guys, I like to see people in every state.
And so tell us a little bit of how that works and like what a typical session with you islike so folks can get a sense because I think for many people they've had therapy before
(21:36):
and it's just straight up health based.
Yeah.
that.
So they might be like, okay, when does hypnosis come in?
When does CBT come in?
How do you do it?
How does it work?
So this isn't your everyday regular therapy.
This isn't what I would describe as supportive therapy.
um Not that the therapist isn't supportive and kind and nice, but the goal is very focusedand it's very skills-based and it's very problem-focused.
(22:08):
So you're going to learn specific techniques.
You're going to learn...
skills in terms of how to use hypnosis, how to use cognitive behavioral therapy to breakthat cycle that I described earlier, to break that hypervigilant visceral hypersensitivity
cycle.
And for that reason, it's probably a little different than just the talk-based.
(22:34):
There's a lot more of an experiential component, right?
because people can talk all they want about, um, you know, this idea and that idea, but tohave the experience of what it's like to, to use hypnosis, to go into trance, to use that
(22:56):
trance, to turn down the visceral hypersensitivity.
So they can go in one session from, say an eight out of 10 pain to like a two and see thathappening, have the experience of it.
in 15 minutes.
It's something you just have to do rather than talk about.
(23:19):
Right, right.
And I think for a lot of people, they're like, okay, you can do this telehealth,obviously, because you're in all the states.
And when you're talking through things, you're doing the trance state of the hypnosis, theperson is, like you said, talking down the pain, like literally working through the area
or visualizing the area, know, something of that nature, depending on what you've promptedthem, of course, with the hypnosis.
(23:46):
Yeah.
So, um, so hypnosis really is actually kind of simple.
All it is is, um, teaching someone how to on purpose go into a trance state and a trancestate is a normal human state of consciousness.
We all go in and out of trance.
(24:07):
Um, you know, when we're driving our car, when we're watching a movie, when we'reexorcist, you know, like it's hard to keep people out of trance.
It's very common.
I always make, what's that?
I'm like really?
So we have, we're all walking around in a trance and it's in a lot of ways on autopilot.
(24:30):
Um, I mean, just think like you're in a meeting at work and your mind wanders and you'rethinking about what you're going to do later.
And then you're thinking about, I need to go shopping.
I need to get this, that, and the other thing.
And then you come back and you're like, what the hell were they just talking about?
So you think about it, your ears were working.
(24:53):
Your ears were receiving those sound waves, but your brain was somewhere else.
That's an example of trance.
I always make the joke, because I've got teenagers.
If you want to see what trance looks like, just hand a teenager their phone.
(25:14):
they're gonna be gone.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I mean, just scrolling on social media is trans-state.
And driving, of course, I think a lot of folks can relate to that, where you drive homefrom work, same path, a million times over, and you're like, oh, look, I'm home already.
What even happened on the way home?
Yeah.
(25:34):
I've got my book on tape playing.
Suddenly I'm home.
I'm like, okay.
Yeah, here I am, here I am.
You know, and I don't think a lot of people realize that during these states, and I'm verycurious too, if you recommend homework and folks to, you know, do some exercises that
maybe they could tap into the drive home from work, working on their pain.
(25:57):
I don't know, just throwing it out there.
Give us a little background on like, what kind of homework do you provide for folks?
there's two types of homework we really almost always give.
uh One is when we do the hypnosis session, we're going to record it.
And then we're going to want the person to listen to it and practice it every day between,you know, that time.
(26:21):
And then the next appointment, because we're rewiring the brain doing it once is good.
doing it three, four, five, six, seven times is just going to, you know, reinforce thatnew pathway in the brain.
The other thing we teach, which is really powerful is something called an anchor.
(26:46):
An anchor is, um, is so simple, but it's just such an empowering thing to learn.
All it is is conditioning.
So, you know, we,
We see like a sign, you know, a commercial for our favorite food.
We suddenly get hungry, you know, like, um, we, see a certain person that we don't like,we just see their face and we're a little annoyed, right?
(27:14):
These are all different kinds of anchors.
Um, and so we, we create, uh, a relaxation or we create, uh, a comfort anchor or wecreate.
an anchor for managing their pain.
But we, we create it in a conditioned response so that they can do the anchor wheneverthey need that effect.
(27:39):
If they need more confidence, you can have an anchor for that.
If you need to just relax and chill out, you can have an anchor for that.
Um, a patient I just started working with recently, um, came back and said, you know,I've, I've been using my anchor like at work and it's just,
She's so happy about it because she'll have a meeting, it's about to start.
(28:02):
She does her anchor and muscles she didn't even realize were tense just immediately andautomatically start relaxing.
That's neat.
And I can see where that would be really useful for folks who have spastic kind of gut,like colons and all kinds of abdominal muscles and things of that nature.
(28:25):
because they need to access that state fast.
can't go off and see me.
They probably don't even have time to go and listen to the recording.
They need that help right now.
And so you create these anchors that can get whatever that effect is and have it happenimmediately.
(28:47):
and then you can practice it and then eventually symptoms kind of just fade away fromthere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
What you see is when people respond, let's say this is their symptoms and it, starts tolike kind of destabilize and then it goes, goes, goes, and it's kind of trending down.
(29:08):
And then it hits some point where it just boom.
It just, the system breaks and you reset to a new way of doing things.
It's just what people describe like rewiring, you know, your thought against trauma orwhatever, you know, other things too.
How long on average do you see it take someone if say they're doing the homework, they'redoing the things, they're getting their anchors, practicing them, doing all
(29:37):
Our data from our practice and also the data from all the studies that have been done isthat we want to do at least eight sessions.
And probably on average, it's going to be between eight and 12.
People often start seeing improvement by like the fourth or the fifth session, but theresearch shows that you want to finish off and do probably at least eight because that
(30:06):
kind of, they start to improve.
Um, but what, kind of really burns it into the brain are those last few sessions that,that make it so that the changes last.
So, cause when the treatment is done, these patients actually tend to keep getting better,which is really interesting.
(30:33):
I like this because it's been that thing that I talk about a lot for folks when it comesdown to, like you said, and we said earlier, is like the missing link.
And I think that it's a missing link not only for the gut, I think it's a missing link forlot of chronic illness.
Oh yeah, yeah, you're, opening a whole other topic, which is dear to my heart, but, um,but you're absolutely right.
(30:56):
Yes.
Um, there's a lot happening in, just the body, uh, where there's that brain bodyconnection also.
Now I know you focus on the GI.
Do you ever dabble in the other space when people have worked with you and they're like,my GI side of things is better, but my chronic fatigue hasn't gone away or my chronic mono
(31:17):
or my chronic, you name it.
a hundred percent, like all my career, I, I would always get the patients that had kind ofreached the end of the line.
Meaning, uh, you know, they've been everywhere, they've done everything and nothing seemedto help.
(31:39):
and you almost never see someone with just GI problems.
Um, what you often see is, uh, this, this kind of constellation.
of issues.
So you'll often see a GI issue.
You'll see headaches and then there'll often be some kind of muscular skeletal pain that'salso happening.
(32:01):
And there also might be um an anxiety disorder of some kind or depression or trauma.
It's like this very common constellation.
And the good news is they're all treatable.
You know, it might feel like these are all different things, but um there's kind of thiscommon central nervous system theme that goes throughout all of them.
(32:30):
Have you dabbled in, and I'm guessing you probably have or some form of this, is like thecell danger response and the work around vagus nerve and all of that as it relates to
immune system and response.
Yeah.
my gosh.
Um, it's good timing.
You asking me this.
(32:51):
Um, I just had the most fascinating conversation, um, with, this guy that invented a Vegasnerve stimulation device that was noninvasive.
And it was literally yesterday and he just kind of blew my mind.
(33:12):
I mean, I, and I thought I was already pretty knowledgeable about the vagus nerve and the,the nervous system and you know, all this stuff, ventral vagal, dorsal vagal.
Um, but he took it to a whole other level, super impressive.
Um, and that connection between the vagus nerve and the immune system, I was not veryfamiliar with.
(33:37):
previous to this conversation.
It was really neat.
It's something, it's something.
And I'm seeing a lot more folks with, they just keep getting sick over and over again.
They can't seem to shake bugs, whether it's chronic mono, Lyme, you know?
And it's fascinating to me.
(33:58):
But, you know, nevertheless, it's something that I always wanna touch on a little bit andbe like, there's so much more.
So are you going to be implementing some vagus nerve stimulators in the clinic and havingfolks?
Yeah.
So the, step, like something like this, I'm, very willing to test it on myself.
(34:18):
So that's, that's going to be my first round.
they were nice enough to, they're going to, they're sending me one of the devices.
So I'm going to, I'm like, okay, like, I'm going to start doing it every day.
Let's see what happens, you know?
Um, and I'm, I'm so excited to try it.
I don't know.
Have you already tried devices like that?
(34:39):
You have.
Yeah, yeah, I've tried the Pulsato.
I've also tried one from a fellow named Mark Fox.
He owns, um it's Rezona Health.
He has one that they just came out with.
And I've kind of beta tested red light therapy with some tapping on acupuncture pointsbecause there's a company called Kinian.
(35:01):
They're coming out with one that goes with red light therapy.
And so those have been like my three I've been playing with over the last six-ish months.
No.
I've also heard really interesting things about red light therapy also.
Super cool, super cool stuff.
And, you know, a lot of them are panels, right?
(35:22):
But if you've got the targeted little, little red lights, kind of like Kinney and not,mean, yes, I have an affiliate with them folks, full disclosure, but I'm not, it's really,
like the device, but I like it it's small and you can put it over points, targeted points.
So I use it like acupuncture and you can put it over the belly points.
You can put it, you know, neck, you can put it, I mean, it's
(35:44):
awesome fur.
So I am, so this whole area is like, this is outside of my zone of expertise, but I'mfascinated by it and it's so neat.
I really love this stuff and absolutely.
So if I try it out and I'm also gonna review the research, cause he was telling me there'sa lot of good research and so I'm gonna check that out also.
(36:09):
And if it all lines up, I will absolutely be recommending it to patients.
I think I'd be crazy not to if it was even half as good as what he was describing.
Yeah, yeah, definitely play with it.
You're like me, you gotta try it on yourself first.
I won't recommend anything unless I've tried it on myself.
And yeah, that stuff, PEMF, um also pulsed electromagnetic frequencies.
(36:38):
Also another thing, yes.
There's the big Beamer mats, and those are like 10 grand, but there's a portable device.
um Mark Fox, who owns Rezona Health, has the little.
stimulators, but the PMF that too is very interesting.
It's very, very interesting and something that, know, someone will look into.
(37:01):
We'll get you connected with his stuff too, because I think we're at a place in healthwhere the guts are just going to keep getting more and more inflamed.
you know, one of the things I think a lot of folks are going to ask me to ask you.
and I'm gonna do it now before I get the ass later, is, do you believe that folks couldtechnically eat anything and not have a reaction to it if they worked on the top-down
(37:35):
approach to central nervous system and gut?
Do you think that folks could be completely reaction-free, even eating like the junkiestof the junk out there?
I'll give you the worst answer anyone ever gives to these kinds of questions.
And then I'll talk more about it.
The answer I would give is it depends.
(37:56):
Right.
Cause from what I've seen, I do believe there are biologically based food sensitivities.
Obviously there's things like uh celiac and you know, different, different things likethat.
uh So I think.
different and then just, think, and I don't understand this and I don't know that sciencehas caught up to this yet, but I think just genetically, there's probably an ideal diet
(38:24):
out there for each of us based on our genetics, our biochemistry, that we're just notsophisticated enough to understand yet, all the nuances and the personalization of it.
So I would say like big picture, there's, I think there's always going to be foods that
that are better for people and worse for people.
(38:46):
What I would say is that, um, if you're somebody who has a history of GI issues, it's verylikely that you've picked up along the way, some conditioned food sensitivity.
And it's worth your time to try to decondition that to, to calm the system down.
(39:10):
Um, and I think that can.
vastly expand the amount of food that some people eat.
Cause I think we're talking about this off camera, I believe, that some patients will comein just incredibly restricted in terms of their food.
um Like you could, they could give you a piece of paper that has all the foods they'reallowed to eat, right?
(39:35):
Mm-hmm
And that is scary, you know, getting to the point where they have ARFID, like uh avoidantrestrictive food intake disorder.
it's reached the level of an eating disorder.
uh So I think, and I talked about this with you already is that uh you gotta, you gottacool down the system and then you can reintroduce.
(39:57):
uh And so for people who have that question, I think the first step is
you work with the nervous system, work with a gut brain therapist or you know, you dosomething to calm that system down.
And then you can see about systematically, carefully reintroducing foods.
uh
(40:19):
makes no, that makes perfect sense.
That makes perfect sense.
I know a lot of people out there will definitely wonder, you know, like, can I really eatanything?
And of course, I'm always bringing the caveat of like, well, you know, if you go toKentucky Fried Chicken, and you overeat it, you're probably not going to feel great.
Anyway, you have to there are logical situations.
(40:40):
And there are, you know, things where we've gotten to the point where yeah, you're eatingthree foods, and that's all you can eat.
Now we've got
we've got something else behind all of it.
And that's...
I I had a patient, because we see kids also.
see, you know, kids, adolescents.
(41:01):
think there was a kid who was having a reaction to water.
At that point, can be 100 % sure that this is nervous system thing.
Because I don't know that it's possible to have an issue with waters considering whatpercentage of us is water.
(41:25):
Right?
It's true.
The only thing I would have in my mind is unless it's really toxic water, then if theylive in Flint, Michigan, probably impossible.
uh All joking aside.
Yeah, yeah.
All joking aside, like, yes, it would probably have to be some kind of toxic water.
But like the truth is, like, yeah, that would that would sound very similar to.
(41:48):
It's good to know that you work with kiddos because that is a common complaint that I doget from parents though, like my kid does not eat anything.
They say their stomach hurts with everything.
um And I've also gotten cases where we've had teenagers where I think anxiety ismanifesting and we're getting acid reflux, we're getting cyclical vomiting kind of stuff.
(42:10):
yeah, we get those kiddos, we get those teenagers all the time.
um I just got done, well, I'm not done, but he made a lot of progress.
A little guy, um 13 years old, tremendous amount of stomach pain, clearly related toanxiety, um very quickly reducing all the food that he would eat to the point where it was
(42:36):
really scaring people.
um
but responded, I mean, and that's the nice thing about kids too, is they can have somepretty bad symptoms in terms of nervous system, gut problems, but they respond really well
to treatment, better than adults.
Their nervous system can reset and can learn faster than adults can.
(43:00):
So you see like this guy, he did two sessions and he's almost back to normal again.
Nice, nice.
That's huge.
That's huge.
So if parents see like a shift in the child's eating based on maybe some stress orwhatever it may be, maybe there's something with school, we always blame it on, know, the
kids got the stomach aches because they don't want to go to school, but maybe somethingdid happen and we can work on that.
(43:26):
So, passed.
Two date, two sessions.
Oh yeah.
mean, people have the capacity to learn.
and, and I think that's, I get a bit preachy when I start talking about hypnosis becauseit's so misunderstood and it's so incredibly powerful.
(43:51):
I almost think of it as this is, this is almost your right as a human to learn theseskills.
Cause we all have the ability to go into trance.
but most of us do not know how to use it in a productive way, which is sad because, uh youknow, self-hypnosis is an amazing tool for anxiety.
(44:12):
It's an amazing tool for pain and discomfort or for using it for habit change.
It's a really nice skill to have that sadly most people will never learn.
Well, hopefully they're listening to this podcast and we will get that word out.
Now, of course, that being said, folks can reach you at gipsychology.com, but where else?
(44:35):
Give us kind of the background in terms of all the ways folks can interact with you, uhhow to get in touch for a session, what it looks like, all that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
Um, so we're, think on the, the major prop, like Instagram and think like LinkedIn and, Iapologize because I'm just such a, not a social media guy.
(44:59):
Um, but, um, but they, but more importantly, they can go to that website and they can geta free consult.
So if they're skeptical about it, they have a lot of questions.
They can go.
There's somebody clinically trained who will answer all their questions em and help themfigure out if this is the right kind of thing for them.
(45:22):
That's huge.
That's huge.
And like we had mentioned before, you're all across the US.
What about Canada?
What about, you know, international folks?
Do you have any resources for them?
Things of that nature.
It's, we were just talking about this the other day, cause I was at a conference and I meta Canadian dietitian and she was saying they, they just don't have these gut brain therapy
(45:47):
resources in their country.
And we've looked into trying to treat patients in Canada and it's like this licensurenightmare.
And so we're like, okay, what do we do about that?
And then we started thinking like, okay, over, cause we've been around for about fiveyears.
And I've been in charge of training.
And during that time, um I've taken what was a very informal process of me training thetherapist uh to a very structured.
(46:16):
We have like a very structured curriculum that has, you know, videos and things to readand then individual supervision and group consultation and experiential exercise.
It's, it's a whole like very solid thing.
And so.
We started talking about the idea of at the very least, maybe we can offer that trainingto clinicians in Canada.
(46:41):
If, know, even if we can't treat patients there that maybe we could train people to do itbecause big part of our mission is that it's just, it's a very sad situation that these
very effective treatments are not available to more people.
And I didn't mention this earlier, but when you look at the research about 80 % of
(47:02):
patients will reach their treatment goals when they engage in these treatments.
So they're very effective, they're short term, and they've got lot of uh empiricalevidence supporting.
I think it's fascinating and you know, being on the other side of seeing folks reach apoint where it's like, okay, there's a big missing piece here.
(47:26):
I can see where this is absolutely helpful.
And I really do hope that you guys do take advantage of Ali's Group's free consult to seeif it's a fit for you because like you said, it sounds pretty fast, especially for the
kids, which I know for a lot of parents, that's a big frustration for them.
(47:47):
And in my mind, I'm like, why wouldn't you?
Why wouldn't you?
Yeah, and it happens so often with those poor kids, you know, and the parents see it, theyknow it.
They're like, okay, little Johnny, little Susie is, their stomach is hurting every Sundaynight, or it's hurting every Monday morning before they go to school.
(48:12):
They're having all these symptoms.
They know that there's a brain gut component.
but they don't know what to do about it.
you know, they'll go to their doctor, they'll do all the tests and the tests are going toshow that there's nothing wrong.
And then they're kind of like, take them to a therapist.
But a standard therapist isn't really going to know how to address the GI issue.
(48:35):
If there's an anxiety disorder, they can help.
If there's depression, they can help, but they don't know how to address that mind bodyconnection.
And so they really end up spinning their wheels for a long time.
until they find the right provider.
And again, so that's kind of the motivation that we had for creating the practice is, youwe don't want people to suffer longer than they need to.
(49:03):
Absolutely.
No, this is great.
And Ali, I've learned so much.
And I'm also, you know, know, I know that folks are going to hear this and be like, okay,Dr.
Krause has said this before.
I've heard it.
Like someone else to back me up here.
ah But nevertheless, we'll make sure we get out your links and we get out the website, gipsychology.com on the podcast notes at drj krause nd.com.
(49:30):
Ali, thanks again.
I really appreciate it.
Great conversation.
Look forward to hearing how things develop with the Vegas nerve stimulators and the redlight in the practice.
Yeah, I'm super excited and all of you listeners, should listen to Dr.
Krauss.
She knows what she's talking about.
You know, when she tells you about the brain gut, um she absolutely knows her stuff.
(49:57):
You're the best.
Thank you so much.
Thanks.
Ali Navidi, welcome to the Health Fix Podcast.
Well, I am happy to be here, Janine, and I'm eager to get started talking about all thenerdy gut brain stuff that we can handle.
Well, I have no doubt that folks listening are going to be excited because I haven'ttalked a ton about nerd now, basically on the gut.
(00:26):
I talk about it here and there.
I talk about his foundation, but he brought up something before he hit record that I thinkis really fascinating to bring forward because you'll hear from the functional medicine
space and the natural medicine space gut up and you mentioned brain down to the gut.
And I'm like, you know what?
Both work and they both work in terms of how we're a
(00:48):
approaching certain clients and certain situations.
And in particular, I'm gonna bring up a couple cases I've had and we'll geek out on thoseas we move through.
But in particular, just thinking about how important just having a connected body is.
yeah, yeah.
And sometimes my patients are surprised when they find out how much of an effect theirbrain has on their body.
(01:19):
And what I tell them is, look, you know, you've got a brain and you've got a body, but youalso have a neck and that really, you know, it connects the two very powerfully.
So I'd love to hear those cases that you're talking about.
Yeah, you know, it's funny.
You know, we got a neck, we get a chest, we've got other things in there as well.
(01:41):
And you know, one of the cases in particular that comes up, you know, as I knew I wasgonna be speaking with you, is one in which I will see women in particular, perimenopause,
menopause time of life, we tend to feel disconnected or feel like we're a stranger in ourown bodies because we've got roller coaster emotions.
Sometimes you'll say something and be like, who was that?
(02:04):
I don't even know, know, someone on my shoulder, what's going on?
And in particular, this is also a time when if someone had gut issues previously, thingscan show back up or will have new gut issues start to show up as hormones flux.
And one of my most memorable folks is a gal who was complaining about SIBO.
So small intestine bowel overgrowth.
(02:26):
And she had done all the things, all the things.
And still we would go back to
Where's your vagus nerve?
Where's your nervous system connection?
So I'd love for you to dive into when folks have done all the things for the gut andthere's still that nervous system connection where there's that anxiety, there's that,
don't feel so good in my body.
(02:48):
Let's talk about that.
That's funny um that you brought that up because I was also thinking of a patient, uhAlex, patient's name is Alex.
And they had uh gone into the Middle East and then come back with Middle East respiratoryvirus.
(03:08):
I think there's a specialized virus.
Anyway, they had all these symptoms and then they blasted him with antibiotics.
And then following that,
Um, you know, the virus was gone, but he kept having symptoms, kept having problems.
And he went all to all the right places and did all the right things in terms of standardWestern medicine.
(03:32):
Um, and he couldn't get any help.
And then he found a naturopathic doctor and got maybe like 50 % there.
And the, he had developed SIBO.
over, over that time.
And that was causing a lot of trouble, but that last 50%, he just couldn't, couldn't getthere.
(03:54):
And, and he was crippled.
He was really crippled.
He couldn't work.
couldn't, he had such discomfort and pain and essentially what we call functionaldyspepsia.
So kind of like the upper GI, um, but responded amazingly to clinical hypnosis and
(04:15):
cognitive behavioral therapy, that combination within about, I think, 10 sessions, he wassymptom free.
Um, but it just goes to show you, know, you got to find the right pieces for the puzzle.
And sometimes when you've tried everything else, that last piece is the central nervoussystem.
(04:38):
Right.
So I absolutely agree with what you said.
I'm glad you say the last piece when we've gone through all the other things is thecentral nervous system because I've tried over and over to convey it to a lot of folks and
and sometimes I think it just needs to be said by someone else it's kind like the momsaying it and we need someone else in the department to to say it.
(04:59):
Now when we're looking at cognitive therapy when we're looking at hypnosis a lot of folkswill be like man what what are we
doing, like what's going on in particular, you know, lot of folks probably understand on abase level, you know, cognitive, but hypnosis, how does that work for the central nervous
system?
How are you implementing it?
(05:20):
Give us a, give us a background there.
I think, um, I think there's a few things I want to explain so that people get the rightcontext.
Uh, so first, um, let's just talk about what hypnosis is and what it isn't.
Right.
And the, and the problem I think with hypnosis is that everybody knows about it and whatthey know is entertainment hypnosis, right?
(05:46):
They know mind control, they know magic, they know all that wacky stuff and what theydon't know.
is clinical hypnosis and clinical hypnosis has at this point, 40 years of research ofusing hypnosis on GI problems.
(06:07):
And the research is amazing.
I mean, we're talking about hundreds of studies, all uniformly effective.
And it's a tragedy to me that people don't know about that side of hypnosis, right?
uh
without spending too much time on it, let's just separate all the entertainment stuff andwe'll say this clinical hypnosis is a whole other thing.
(06:31):
How does it help with the gut?
Well, you've already probably taught your audience well that there's a very powerful gutbrain axis and that what happens in the gut can affect the brain and what happens in the
brain can affect the gut.
Well, what we often see in patients with gut
issues is something called hypervigilance.
(06:54):
And it's this unconscious, anxious scanning of the body and of the gut, particularly ifthere's a problem area and the brain is always going there looking, how's it feeling?
I don't know.
It doesn't quite feel right.
And it's always getting, and when it finds something it doesn't like, then thecatastrophizing kicks in.
(07:15):
my gosh, what's, I'm not going to be able to go out today.
This is a bad day.
I shouldn't really try to eat it.
oh So they start catastrophizing and then all that anxiety and stress get funneled rightinto the gut.
And then the symptoms actually increase.
And then all those symptoms feed back up to the brain and they get amplified and distortedby something called visceral hypersensitivity.
(07:45):
So we've got these three components, right?
The anxious scanning and catastrophizing, the visceral hypersensitivity, which amplifiesit, and the powerful gut-brain connection.
And that creates this really nasty cycle that traps a lot of people in symptoms.
I think this happens so often for folks, especially in chronic gut issues.
(08:11):
yes.
Yeah, on the chronic side, absolutely.
It seems, know, when I'm looking through them and just scanning through my brain about thedifferent cases I've had, know, SIBO obviously is the top one in my mind because I've seen
people go through so many different protocols and all the way down to like, you know,eating nothing and they still have symptoms and it's like, I'm guessing you've seen that
(08:38):
too.
yeah, yeah.
We, mean, we'll often see patients come to us where they essentially have something calledRFID.
And I'm sure you're familiar like avoidant restrictive food intake disorder, meaningthey've systematically reduced their diet to the point where it's negatively affecting
(09:04):
their life.
It's negatively affecting their health.
And the sad thing is they're doing it to either avoid pain or to increase health, butthey're getting the opposite effect.
And sadly, I'll admit that I've gone through this in my practice of like, am I causingmore trouble than good with elimination diets and these kind of things when it comes down
(09:29):
to a very chronic case of folks.
It's like, ooh, I don't know if we're doing the right thing.
I think also there's a lot of danger when people do these things on their own.
So as an example, there's a few different diets out there.
One of them is FODMAP.
Another example would be AIP diet.
(09:52):
And both of these can be very strict, you're not meant to stay on it.
their elimination diets, meaning you go on it and then you reintroduce things back later.
And I don't know that people always do the reintroduction part because either they don'tknow they should or they get anxious about reintroducing that food and they're just not
(10:19):
able to do it.
I think both are things that I've seen when folks have come to me and the anxiety aroundfood.
I'm sure you've heard this too.
Many people will be like, I don't want to eat out.
I bring my own food everywhere.
Yes.
Yes, is.
No, that's, and just the image, that image, you know, you're at a rest.
(10:42):
You just imagine everybody, all your friends or family, they're at a restaurant, they'rejoining themselves, they're eating.
And then you've got this little sad little sack there um and you don't get to have thatsame enjoyment.
um So we'll work with a lot of patients like this, where they've got that, that centralnervous system component.
(11:03):
Maybe they've
And we, often work with naturopaths and, and they'll cause we, we don't know SIBO like youall, and we're not, we're not able to treat it.
That's not our specialty.
So, so you all will be treating the SIBO and there'll be a certain percentage that needthat nervous system component.
(11:23):
And so they'll kind of stall out in their progress.
And so that we've got a few naturopaths around the country that, that send those patientsto us.
And then what you see is they get this, they start improving pretty quickly when that'sthe missing piece.
And then after they've desensitized their system, then we work with them on reintroducingthe food.
(11:52):
Because while they still have this hypervigilant, visceral hypersensitivity kind of spiralhappening, it's really hard to reintroduce food because they're very likely to have a bad
reaction to it.
Not because the food is bad for them, but because their system is just running hot.
(12:13):
m Let's talk about the system running hot because that's one of the things a lot of folks,know, it's hard to tease out because you associate the food being the problem and it's
hard to be like, wait, no, it's my nervous system.
So how do you work with the cognitive, like CBT and how do you work with different, youknow, I guess the quick.
(12:36):
Not the quick, but the hot terms rewiring the brain per se.
And I don't know if you use that term.
I'm curious as to what your term would be for helping someone in this case and havingthese reactions.
Well, an example, one thing you want to educate them on is this phenomenon calledconditioned food sensitivity.
And most, most patients that are in this situation don't even know that's a thing.
(13:00):
They know about food sensitivity.
They know, you know, like I eat this food and bad things happen.
but they don't know that there's a percentage of that that can be conditioned.
That's nervous system based.
The symptoms are still real.
the reaction in the gut or the reaction in the body, 100 % real, but the cause is notbecause the food is not getting along with the body.
(13:25):
It's the causes that their nervous system has conditioned them.
So how could that happen?
An example, let's say someone is just having a bad day.
Maybe they're stressed out.
Maybe their system isn't just feeling good that day and they happen to eat pizza and theyhave a bad reaction.
(13:46):
So then there's a part of their brain that's going to be like, huh, pizza.
I don't know about you.
And then the next time they eat pizza, that part of their brain is going to pop up againand going to be like, I remember what happened last time we ate pizza.
And there's going to be this increased hypervigilance.
(14:07):
And then if anything starts feeling weird in the gut, catastrophizing, man, I knew it.
I knew I shouldn't have eaten that pizza.
See, I'm gonna have a bad day.
My gut's gonna give me trouble.
And at that point, all that stress and anxiety feed down to the gut and it's aself-fulfilling prophecy.
(14:28):
and now they're sure that pizza is bad for them.
And every time they have that experience, it reinforces itself until that reaction isessentially automatic.
sense that makes sense oh man so so how do you undo that what's what's the what's thestory on undoing that
(14:51):
So we get back to our buddies, uh cognitive behavioral therapy and clinical hypnosis.
And by the way, cognitive behavioral therapy is fairly well known.
um What we're talking about here is a very specific type and a very specific protocolwithin it.
So if you just go out into your community and just pick a random CBT therapist, it's verylikely they won't know what to do with a GI problem.
(15:17):
I just want to put that warning out because I've seen that happen.
very frequently.
uh So you're going to use that cognitive behavioral therapy to uh to reduce and changethat hypervigilance and that catastrophizing.
You're going to teach the brain how to how to think and react in new ways.
(15:40):
That's not just an intellectual thing.
That's also just an experiential thing.
And then you're and then that's where clinical hypnosis it
It's a tool that can do so many different things, but one of the things it does that Idon't really know of a better way to do it is it can directly reduce the visceral
(16:01):
hypersensitivity.
And that's a, that's a really powerful thing because the sensations from these people'sguts are not actually bad.
It's just that the brain has learned to amplify and distort them.
It's kind of like the metaphor I use is if you're listening to music, you know, and yougot headphones on and as a joke, someone goes and like cranks the volume up really high.
(16:30):
It's not like the music's bad.
It's just.
the volume has been cranked up really high, so you're not gonna enjoy it.
In fact, it's gonna be painful.
And that's kind of what happens to sensations in the gut.
Wow, know, lot of people right now might be thinking like, okay, you know, is hypnosisthen maybe reducing histamines or is it maybe reducing, you know, adjusting serotonin and
(16:58):
dopamine, neurochemical or GABA, you know, are there any studies that highlight theneurochemical effect?
Just out of curiosity and it's more me asking on the studies, like just so I can relaythings to folks or anything that.
it's a great question.
And I'm more ignorant than I should be about the biochemical effects.
(17:22):
know as an example, I know I remember reading one study, it was out of Italy and they wereusing hypnosis and they actually found uh
that after the hypnosis, saw epigenetic effects and also reduction of immune response.
(17:45):
Yeah.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
And, and they've done brain studies also.
I'm just, that's, I'm like a, I'm a clinical guy and I just like to treat the patients.
Um, but there's a lot of studies out there looking at, you know, FMRI and different thingslike that.
Um, it's one of those things where it's surprisingly well studied.
(18:07):
If you go into something like PubMed, just type hypnosis in you'll get
thousands of research articles studying hypnosis.
um Yeah.
So, but I, but I don't want to like make anything up and, the research is out there.
It's just, I'm not the man who knows it.
(18:27):
You're fine.
You're fine.
I asked just because a lot of people might be interested, but me, I'm always like, oh,where can I geek out more?
Right?
Where can I geek out more?
Now, of course, I usually start podcasts off with this question, but I'm going to throw itin now just for fun.
What brought you to really looking at the gut brain axis and all of this?
What was what was going on in your world when you're like, there's something here.
(18:52):
Actually, I fell backwards into it.
I was a microbiology major.
I was working in biotech and I just started reading more and more about psychology, abouthypnosis, about, and I loved it, but I never actually put it together that I could do that
(19:14):
for a profession.
I was about to start a PhD in biochemistry.
Um, and luckily my wife was like, you might want to actually do something you arepassionate about.
I was like, okay, well, yeah, like, yes.
Best, best advice I've ever gotten in my life.
(19:37):
Right.
so then I switched gears and you know, long story short, I've got my own practice.
I'm using hypnosis all the time.
I'm using CBT all the time.
And I didn't know it when I first started, but.
Like I mentioned before, hypnosis is an amazing tool for GI problems.
(19:58):
And, and so I started with one patient and got great results and then did it with anotherand another, and then their doctors found out and they started referring to me.
And, and it was just, I think, basically a need thing.
There just wasn't anyone else in the area doing this kind of work.
And I was the only one there doing it.
So slowly it was like eventually 80%.
(20:22):
of the patients I was seeing became GI patients because there were so many of them andthere was nowhere else to go.
And that's actually why I started GI psychology.
Why myself and another psychologist started it because it was frustrating and sad to knowthat, you know, like once I was full, there wasn't anyone else in the DC Metro area who
(20:47):
could help these types of patients.
And I thought that was crazy.
And so we started this practice and we've grown very quickly since then.
I can imagine, mean, second to fatigue, gut issues are the number two thing that folks seeme for.
then, of course, hormonal is in there, you know, in the mix too.
(21:11):
And right now, I mean, it is hard to find folks.
that are specialized, right?
And of course I wanna highlight, you I of course had to ask him like, really, you can seepeople in every state.
So guys, I like to see people in every state.
And so tell us a little bit of how that works and like what a typical session with you islike so folks can get a sense because I think for many people they've had therapy before
(21:36):
and it's just straight up health based.
Yeah.
that.
So they might be like, okay, when does hypnosis come in?
When does CBT come in?
How do you do it?
How does it work?
So this isn't your everyday regular therapy.
This isn't what I would describe as supportive therapy.
um Not that the therapist isn't supportive and kind and nice, but the goal is very focusedand it's very skills-based and it's very problem-focused.
(22:08):
So you're going to learn specific techniques.
You're going to learn...
skills in terms of how to use hypnosis, how to use cognitive behavioral therapy to breakthat cycle that I described earlier, to break that hypervigilant visceral hypersensitivity
cycle.
And for that reason, it's probably a little different than just the talk-based.
(22:34):
There's a lot more of an experiential component, right?
because people can talk all they want about, um, you know, this idea and that idea, but tohave the experience of what it's like to, to use hypnosis, to go into trance, to use that
(22:56):
trance, to turn down the visceral hypersensitivity.
So they can go in one session from, say an eight out of 10 pain to like a two and see thathappening, have the experience of it.
in 15 minutes.
It's something you just have to do rather than talk about.
(23:19):
Right, right.
And I think for a lot of people, they're like, okay, you can do this telehealth,obviously, because you're in all the states.
And when you're talking through things, you're doing the trance state of the hypnosis, theperson is, like you said, talking down the pain, like literally working through the area
or visualizing the area, know, something of that nature, depending on what you've promptedthem, of course, with the hypnosis.
(23:46):
Yeah.
So, um, so hypnosis really is actually kind of simple.
All it is is, um, teaching someone how to on purpose go into a trance state and a trancestate is a normal human state of consciousness.
We all go in and out of trance.
(24:07):
Um, you know, when we're driving our car, when we're watching a movie, when we'reexorcist, you know, like it's hard to keep people out of trance.
It's very common.
I always make, what's that?
I'm like really?
So we have, we're all walking around in a trance and it's in a lot of ways on autopilot.
(24:30):
Um, I mean, just think like you're in a meeting at work and your mind wanders and you'rethinking about what you're going to do later.
And then you're thinking about, I need to go shopping.
I need to get this, that, and the other thing.
And then you come back and you're like, what the hell were they just talking about?
So you think about it, your ears were working.
(24:53):
Your ears were receiving those sound waves, but your brain was somewhere else.
That's an example of trance.
I always make the joke, because I've got teenagers.
If you want to see what trance looks like, just hand a teenager their phone.
(25:14):
they're gonna be gone.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I mean, just scrolling on social media is trans-state.
And driving, of course, I think a lot of folks can relate to that, where you drive homefrom work, same path, a million times over, and you're like, oh, look, I'm home already.
What even happened on the way home?
Yeah.
(25:34):
I've got my book on tape playing.
Suddenly I'm home.
I'm like, okay.
Yeah, here I am, here I am.
You know, and I don't think a lot of people realize that during these states, and I'm verycurious too, if you recommend homework and folks to, you know, do some exercises that
maybe they could tap into the drive home from work, working on their pain.
(25:57):
I don't know, just throwing it out there.
Give us a little background on like, what kind of homework do you provide for folks?
there's two types of homework we really almost always give.
uh One is when we do the hypnosis session, we're going to record it.
And then we're going to want the person to listen to it and practice it every day between,you know, that time.
(26:21):
And then the next appointment, because we're rewiring the brain doing it once is good.
doing it three, four, five, six, seven times is just going to, you know, reinforce thatnew pathway in the brain.
The other thing we teach, which is really powerful is something called an anchor.
(26:46):
An anchor is, um, is so simple, but it's just such an empowering thing to learn.
All it is is conditioning.
So, you know, we,
We see like a sign, you know, a commercial for our favorite food.
We suddenly get hungry, you know, like, um, we, see a certain person that we don't like,we just see their face and we're a little annoyed, right?
(27:14):
These are all different kinds of anchors.
Um, and so we, we create, uh, a relaxation or we create, uh, a comfort anchor or wecreate.
an anchor for managing their pain.
But we, we create it in a conditioned response so that they can do the anchor wheneverthey need that effect.
(27:39):
If they need more confidence, you can have an anchor for that.
If you need to just relax and chill out, you can have an anchor for that.
Um, a patient I just started working with recently, um, came back and said, you know,I've, I've been using my anchor like at work and it's just,
She's so happy about it because she'll have a meeting, it's about to start.
(28:02):
She does her anchor and muscles she didn't even realize were tense just immediately andautomatically start relaxing.
That's neat.
And I can see where that would be really useful for folks who have spastic kind of gut,like colons and all kinds of abdominal muscles and things of that nature.
(28:25):
because they need to access that state fast.
can't go off and see me.
They probably don't even have time to go and listen to the recording.
They need that help right now.
And so you create these anchors that can get whatever that effect is and have it happenimmediately.
(28:47):
and then you can practice it and then eventually symptoms kind of just fade away fromthere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
What you see is when people respond, let's say this is their symptoms and it, starts tolike kind of destabilize and then it goes, goes, goes, and it's kind of trending down.
(29:08):
And then it hits some point where it just boom.
It just, the system breaks and you reset to a new way of doing things.
It's just what people describe like rewiring, you know, your thought against trauma orwhatever, you know, other things too.
How long on average do you see it take someone if say they're doing the homework, they'redoing the things, they're getting their anchors, practicing them, doing all
(29:37):
Our data from our practice and also the data from all the studies that have been done isthat we want to do at least eight sessions.
And probably on average, it's going to be between eight and 12.
People often start seeing improvement by like the fourth or the fifth session, but theresearch shows that you want to finish off and do probably at least eight because that
(30:06):
kind of, they start to improve.
Um, but what, kind of really burns it into the brain are those last few sessions that,that make it so that the changes last.
So, cause when the treatment is done, these patients actually tend to keep getting better,which is really interesting.
(30:33):
I like this because it's been that thing that I talk about a lot for folks when it comesdown to, like you said, and we said earlier, is like the missing link.
And I think that it's a missing link not only for the gut, I think it's a missing link forlot of chronic illness.
Oh yeah, yeah, you're, opening a whole other topic, which is dear to my heart, but, um,but you're absolutely right.
(30:56):
Yes.
Um, there's a lot happening in, just the body, uh, where there's that brain bodyconnection also.
Now I know you focus on the GI.
Do you ever dabble in the other space when people have worked with you and they're like,my GI side of things is better, but my chronic fatigue hasn't gone away or my chronic mono
(31:17):
or my chronic, you name it.
a hundred percent, like all my career, I, I would always get the patients that had kind ofreached the end of the line.
Meaning, uh, you know, they've been everywhere, they've done everything and nothing seemedto help.
(31:39):
and you almost never see someone with just GI problems.
Um, what you often see is, uh, this, this kind of constellation.
of issues.
So you'll often see a GI issue.
You'll see headaches and then there'll often be some kind of muscular skeletal pain that'salso happening.
(32:01):
And there also might be um an anxiety disorder of some kind or depression or trauma.
It's like this very common constellation.
And the good news is they're all treatable.
You know, it might feel like these are all different things, but um there's kind of thiscommon central nervous system theme that goes throughout all of them.
(32:30):
Have you dabbled in, and I'm guessing you probably have or some form of this, is like thecell danger response and the work around vagus nerve and all of that as it relates to
immune system and response.
Yeah.
my gosh.
Um, it's good timing.
You asking me this.
(32:51):
Um, I just had the most fascinating conversation, um, with, this guy that invented a Vegasnerve stimulation device that was noninvasive.
And it was literally yesterday and he just kind of blew my mind.
(33:12):
I mean, I, and I thought I was already pretty knowledgeable about the vagus nerve and the,the nervous system and you know, all this stuff, ventral vagal, dorsal vagal.
Um, but he took it to a whole other level, super impressive.
Um, and that connection between the vagus nerve and the immune system, I was not veryfamiliar with.
(33:37):
previous to this conversation.
It was really neat.
It's something, it's something.
And I'm seeing a lot more folks with, they just keep getting sick over and over again.
They can't seem to shake bugs, whether it's chronic mono, Lyme, you know?
And it's fascinating to me.
(33:58):
But, you know, nevertheless, it's something that I always wanna touch on a little bit andbe like, there's so much more.
So are you going to be implementing some vagus nerve stimulators in the clinic and havingfolks?
Yeah.
So the, step, like something like this, I'm, very willing to test it on myself.
(34:18):
So that's, that's going to be my first round.
they were nice enough to, they're going to, they're sending me one of the devices.
So I'm going to, I'm like, okay, like, I'm going to start doing it every day.
Let's see what happens, you know?
Um, and I'm, I'm so excited to try it.
I don't know.
Have you already tried devices like that?
(34:39):
You have.
Yeah, yeah, I've tried the Pulsato.
I've also tried one from a fellow named Mark Fox.
He owns, um it's Rezona Health.
He has one that they just came out with.
And I've kind of beta tested red light therapy with some tapping on acupuncture pointsbecause there's a company called Kinian.
(35:01):
They're coming out with one that goes with red light therapy.
And so those have been like my three I've been playing with over the last six-ish months.
No.
I've also heard really interesting things about red light therapy also.
Super cool, super cool stuff.
And, you know, a lot of them are panels, right?
(35:22):
But if you've got the targeted little, little red lights, kind of like Kinney and not,mean, yes, I have an affiliate with them folks, full disclosure, but I'm not, it's really,
like the device, but I like it it's small and you can put it over points, targeted points.
So I use it like acupuncture and you can put it over the belly points.
You can put it, you know, neck, you can put it, I mean, it's
(35:44):
awesome fur.
So I am, so this whole area is like, this is outside of my zone of expertise, but I'mfascinated by it and it's so neat.
I really love this stuff and absolutely.
So if I try it out and I'm also gonna review the research, cause he was telling me there'sa lot of good research and so I'm gonna check that out also.
(36:09):
And if it all lines up, I will absolutely be recommending it to patients.
I think I'd be crazy not to if it was even half as good as what he was describing.
Yeah, yeah, definitely play with it.
You're like me, you gotta try it on yourself first.
I won't recommend anything unless I've tried it on myself.
And yeah, that stuff, PEMF, um also pulsed electromagnetic frequencies.
(36:38):
Also another thing, yes.
There's the big Beamer mats, and those are like 10 grand, but there's a portable device.
um Mark Fox, who owns Rezona Health, has the little.
stimulators, but the PMF that too is very interesting.
It's very, very interesting and something that, know, someone will look into.
(37:01):
We'll get you connected with his stuff too, because I think we're at a place in healthwhere the guts are just going to keep getting more and more inflamed.
you know, one of the things I think a lot of folks are going to ask me to ask you.
and I'm gonna do it now before I get the ass later, is, do you believe that folks couldtechnically eat anything and not have a reaction to it if they worked on the top-down
(37:35):
approach to central nervous system and gut?
Do you think that folks could be completely reaction-free, even eating like the junkiestof the junk out there?
I'll give you the worst answer anyone ever gives to these kinds of questions.
And then I'll talk more about it.
The answer I would give is it depends.
(37:56):
Right.
Cause from what I've seen, I do believe there are biologically based food sensitivities.
Obviously there's things like uh celiac and you know, different, different things likethat.
uh So I think.
different and then just, think, and I don't understand this and I don't know that sciencehas caught up to this yet, but I think just genetically, there's probably an ideal diet
(38:24):
out there for each of us based on our genetics, our biochemistry, that we're just notsophisticated enough to understand yet, all the nuances and the personalization of it.
So I would say like big picture, there's, I think there's always going to be foods that
that are better for people and worse for people.
(38:46):
What I would say is that, um, if you're somebody who has a history of GI issues, it's verylikely that you've picked up along the way, some conditioned food sensitivity.
And it's worth your time to try to decondition that to, to calm the system down.
(39:10):
Um, and I think that can.
vastly expand the amount of food that some people eat.
Cause I think we're talking about this off camera, I believe, that some patients will comein just incredibly restricted in terms of their food.
um Like you could, they could give you a piece of paper that has all the foods they'reallowed to eat, right?
(39:35):
Mm-hmm
And that is scary, you know, getting to the point where they have ARFID, like uh avoidantrestrictive food intake disorder.
it's reached the level of an eating disorder.
uh So I think, and I talked about this with you already is that uh you gotta, you gottacool down the system and then you can reintroduce.
(39:57):
uh And so for people who have that question, I think the first step is
you work with the nervous system, work with a gut brain therapist or you know, you dosomething to calm that system down.
And then you can see about systematically, carefully reintroducing foods.
uh
(40:19):
makes no, that makes perfect sense.
That makes perfect sense.
I know a lot of people out there will definitely wonder, you know, like, can I really eatanything?
And of course, I'm always bringing the caveat of like, well, you know, if you go toKentucky Fried Chicken, and you overeat it, you're probably not going to feel great.
Anyway, you have to there are logical situations.
(40:40):
And there are, you know, things where we've gotten to the point where yeah, you're eatingthree foods, and that's all you can eat.
Now we've got
we've got something else behind all of it.
And that's...
I I had a patient, because we see kids also.
see, you know, kids, adolescents.
(41:01):
think there was a kid who was having a reaction to water.
At that point, can be 100 % sure that this is nervous system thing.
Because I don't know that it's possible to have an issue with waters considering whatpercentage of us is water.
(41:25):
Right?
It's true.
The only thing I would have in my mind is unless it's really toxic water, then if theylive in Flint, Michigan, probably impossible.
uh All joking aside.
Yeah, yeah.
All joking aside, like, yes, it would probably have to be some kind of toxic water.
But like the truth is, like, yeah, that would that would sound very similar to.
(41:48):
It's good to know that you work with kiddos because that is a common complaint that I doget from parents though, like my kid does not eat anything.
They say their stomach hurts with everything.
um And I've also gotten cases where we've had teenagers where I think anxiety ismanifesting and we're getting acid reflux, we're getting cyclical vomiting kind of stuff.
(42:10):
yeah, we get those kiddos, we get those teenagers all the time.
um I just got done, well, I'm not done, but he made a lot of progress.
A little guy, um 13 years old, tremendous amount of stomach pain, clearly related toanxiety, um very quickly reducing all the food that he would eat to the point where it was
(42:36):
really scaring people.
um
but responded, I mean, and that's the nice thing about kids too, is they can have somepretty bad symptoms in terms of nervous system, gut problems, but they respond really well
to treatment, better than adults.
Their nervous system can reset and can learn faster than adults can.
(43:00):
So you see like this guy, he did two sessions and he's almost back to normal again.
Nice, nice.
That's huge.
That's huge.
So if parents see like a shift in the child's eating based on maybe some stress orwhatever it may be, maybe there's something with school, we always blame it on, know, the
kids got the stomach aches because they don't want to go to school, but maybe somethingdid happen and we can work on that.
(43:26):
So, passed.
Two date, two sessions.
Oh yeah.
mean, people have the capacity to learn.
and, and I think that's, I get a bit preachy when I start talking about hypnosis becauseit's so misunderstood and it's so incredibly powerful.
(43:51):
I almost think of it as this is, this is almost your right as a human to learn theseskills.
Cause we all have the ability to go into trance.
but most of us do not know how to use it in a productive way, which is sad because, uh youknow, self-hypnosis is an amazing tool for anxiety.
(44:12):
It's an amazing tool for pain and discomfort or for using it for habit change.
It's a really nice skill to have that sadly most people will never learn.
Well, hopefully they're listening to this podcast and we will get that word out.
Now, of course, that being said, folks can reach you at gipsychology.com, but where else?
(44:35):
Give us kind of the background in terms of all the ways folks can interact with you, uhhow to get in touch for a session, what it looks like, all that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
Um, so we're, think on the, the major prop, like Instagram and think like LinkedIn and, Iapologize because I'm just such a, not a social media guy.
(44:59):
Um, but, um, but they, but more importantly, they can go to that website and they can geta free consult.
So if they're skeptical about it, they have a lot of questions.
They can go.
There's somebody clinically trained who will answer all their questions em and help themfigure out if this is the right kind of thing for them.
(45:22):
That's huge.
That's huge.
And like we had mentioned before, you're all across the US.
What about Canada?
What about, you know, international folks?
Do you have any resources for them?
Things of that nature.
It's, we were just talking about this the other day, cause I was at a conference and I meta Canadian dietitian and she was saying they, they just don't have these gut brain therapy
(45:47):
resources in their country.
And we've looked into trying to treat patients in Canada and it's like this licensurenightmare.
And so we're like, okay, what do we do about that?
And then we started thinking like, okay, over, cause we've been around for about fiveyears.
And I've been in charge of training.
And during that time, um I've taken what was a very informal process of me training thetherapist uh to a very structured.
(46:16):
We have like a very structured curriculum that has, you know, videos and things to readand then individual supervision and group consultation and experiential exercise.
It's, it's a whole like very solid thing.
And so.
We started talking about the idea of at the very least, maybe we can offer that trainingto clinicians in Canada.
(46:41):
If, know, even if we can't treat patients there that maybe we could train people to do itbecause big part of our mission is that it's just, it's a very sad situation that these
very effective treatments are not available to more people.
And I didn't mention this earlier, but when you look at the research about 80 % of
(47:02):
patients will reach their treatment goals when they engage in these treatments.
So they're very effective, they're short term, and they've got lot of uh empiricalevidence supporting.
I think it's fascinating and you know, being on the other side of seeing folks reach apoint where it's like, okay, there's a big missing piece here.
(47:26):
I can see where this is absolutely helpful.
And I really do hope that you guys do take advantage of Ali's Group's free consult to seeif it's a fit for you because like you said, it sounds pretty fast, especially for the
kids, which I know for a lot of parents, that's a big frustration for them.
(47:47):
And in my mind, I'm like, why wouldn't you?
Why wouldn't you?
Yeah, and it happens so often with those poor kids, you know, and the parents see it, theyknow it.
They're like, okay, little Johnny, little Susie is, their stomach is hurting every Sundaynight, or it's hurting every Monday morning before they go to school.
(48:12):
They're having all these symptoms.
They know that there's a brain gut component.
but they don't know what to do about it.
you know, they'll go to their doctor, they'll do all the tests and the tests are going toshow that there's nothing wrong.
And then they're kind of like, take them to a therapist.
But a standard therapist isn't really going to know how to address the GI issue.
(48:35):
If there's an anxiety disorder, they can help.
If there's depression, they can help, but they don't know how to address that mind bodyconnection.
And so they really end up spinning their wheels for a long time.
until they find the right provider.
And again, so that's kind of the motivation that we had for creating the practice is, youwe don't want people to suffer longer than they need to.
(49:03):
Absolutely.
No, this is great.
And Ali, I've learned so much.
And I'm also, you know, know, I know that folks are going to hear this and be like, okay,Dr.
Krause has said this before.
I've heard it.
Like someone else to back me up here.
ah But nevertheless, we'll make sure we get out your links and we get out the website, gipsychology.com on the podcast notes at drj krause nd.com.
(49:30):
Ali, thanks again.
I really appreciate it.
Great conversation.
Look forward to hearing how things develop with the Vegas nerve stimulators and the redlight in the practice.
Yeah, I'm super excited and all of you listeners, should listen to Dr.
Krauss.
She knows what she's talking about.
You know, when she tells you about the brain gut, um she absolutely knows her stuff.
(49:57):
You're the best.
Thank you so much.
Thanks.
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