April 4, 2025 • 35 mins
Ilyse and Lindsay talk about the healing power of body modification and tattoos. From talks of their first tattoos to the power of body modification for owning and reclaiming the body.
To learn more about The Hilling Journey podcast visit www.thehillingjourney.com and @thehillingjourney on all social media.
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(00:10):
We are licensed therapists,but we probably aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful informationabout mental health,
it is best to form your individual careplan with your own mental
health professional.
If we are your therapists, hi.
While this podcast shares nuggetsof wisdom about mental health,
we are sharing many pieces of who we areoutside of the therapy room and doing
(00:32):
a lot of yapping about nonsense,our own healing work,
and some about sex and dating.
If you feel listening to this podcast mayinterfere with your work in therapy,
please refrain from doing so.
While we're on the subject,any notes from our dating lives have been
changed to protect the privacyof our partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to the Hilling Journey podcast.I'm Lindsay Camp.
(00:55):
And I'm Ilyse Kennedy.
And this is a podcastwhere two therapists besties...
Oh, I never do this part,so I don't have it memorized.
I know.
Do it.You do it.
Okay.
This is the podcast where two therapistsbesties talk about their hilling journeys
and interview others on their hillingjourneys and hillers that have
helped along the way.Hi, Lindsay.
(01:17):
Hi, Ilyse.
How are you?I am good.
How are you?I'm good.
I'm good.
So today we're talking about bodymodification, which is great because I
have a little tattoo appointmenttomorrow with our gal, Kelly Girvan.
That's right.Sorry about the fidgeting.
I'm trying to get my little fidget toy.
(01:38):
I texted you the other day.
Have you figured out whereyou're going to put it?
I am going to put it on my arm, I think.Cool.
And I am getting a wisteriato represent grief.
I love it.
I wish I was there with you all.
Me too, but you're always there in spirit.
(02:00):
And we're going to have her on the pod
I don't know if she's fully agreed,
but I pitched the idea, and you'll work it.
I'll chat with her tomorrow.
I would love to have her as a guestto talk about
body mod from a professional level.
But yeah, we're going to gab about itas two tattooed girls.
(02:24):
What was your first tattoo?
My first tattoo was this.
This little ampersand, I had,I think I was 28,
and I got it with a bestie at thetime, RIP, that relationship.
I was in my practicum years of grad school
(02:49):
and was working in a really wacky
situation.
I don't think I've I'veever told you this.
Let's hear it.Name 'em.
I don't think I've ever told you this.
Name 'em.
(03:09):
Okay, so I don't think I've toldmany people this, if anybody.
So in grad school,that practicum process was daunting.
They give you that list,but all the places have spots reserved
for UT kids, Texas State kids, yada, yada.
(03:31):
I decided to go off the list and started
cold calling private practices.
This one gentleman took me on as an intern
The lesson on ethics that I got
during that time was tremendous.
(03:53):
What we would do was wewould do collaborative therapy.
I would sit in on his sessions,and the way that it would work was that...
And all the clients knew this,they consented to it.
We would pause in the middleof the session, turn to each other,
(04:14):
and process out loud what we werethinking thus far.
Wow.
And do a little back and forthfor a couple of minutes.
What?
So is that why you got an ampersand?
Because you were doing a yes and?
Yeah.So a client in that context,
(04:36):
in that setting, was speaking about their
yes and exercise in improv classes.Of course.
I know all about it.Of course.
Of course, you do youtheater junky, Theater Kid.
Theater nerd.Theater nerd.
Yeah.So anyways.
So that's what I was up to in 2015-ish.10 years?
(05:00):
Oh, 10 years ago, my first tattoo.
But yeah, I liked the ideaof containing multitudes.
Well, that's why they say,Don't get a tattoo until your brain is
fully developed, becauseI've made some mistakes.
I sat down and was in the chair and hadpaid for a tattoo about 10 years
(05:23):
prior to that when I was about 18.
And thankfully, I didn't get that onebecause what it was was
And I was really proud of it,I co-designed it with the
label on a bottle of tanningcream from the tanning salon.
And it was like wings.
And where the wings connected,it was like a heart.
(05:44):
I remember.I remember.
Yeah.Disgusting.
So I thankfully didn't get that tattoo.
What were you up to beforeyour brain was formed?
I did get the tattoo.
And though we had looked up a few placesand settled on a great one
in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Wait, this is a toothless man, right?
(06:05):
Yeah.
It was closed that day.
So we went to where was open,which was Route Nine Tattoo
on Route 9 by the Natick Mall.
And I sat on the table of a gentlemanwith many missing teeth.
I know now, likely for meth,but wasn't aware at the time.
(06:29):
Andsat down to get three stars across
my pelvic bone...All the way across,
not small stars as my friend got that day.
Large stars all the way across, which, hisartistry, unfortunately,
has not held up over the years.
The lines have fallen out,and it was clear that he was going over
(06:54):
his own work several timesbecause the lines were not straight.
And that's what can happenbefore your brain fully develops.
Actually, when I got my hand tattoos,
which I do love, they said that their
age of consent now to get anything on your
(07:16):
hand is actually 26, because that's when
your frontal lobe finishes developing.
You know what?
I was going to talk about thislater, but I'm going to bring it up now.
Let's hear it.I am so impressed with the...
(07:39):
And there are so many horror stories outthere of artists exploiting their
position of power in that moment.
What I've encountered isso many artists and studios that are
intentionally, and also some of themunknowingly, tattooed the trauma-informed.
(08:02):
Yes.
And I have this pamphletfrom No Good Tattoo that is all about how
they are trauma-informed and this is whatyou should expect when people
are interacting with your body.
And I am just so grateful that that'sin a part of that culture because it's
been so healing for meto experience somebody
(08:26):
being so mindful aboutthe interaction that we're as two bodies
and two people with historiesand stories about things.
And yeah, I've just been so moved by that.
I'll cry about it right now.
Yeah.
I'll shout out a few of the places I'vegone to in Austin that have also been
(08:50):
trauma-informed, not explicitly where theyhave a pamphlet,
but just the entire process has beentrauma-informed down to a questionnaire
that asks specifics,but I've gotten more of my detail work
done at Catitude Tattoo in Austin.
All the artists have beenvery trauma-informed.
(09:12):
Billy Baca did Forthose watching on video, my really
beautiful- She's so pretty.
Matryushka doll, which,by the way, I have this Matryushka
tattoo and then the ones on my fingers.
(09:35):
I've gotten them asa representation of those parts of myself,
but it's also a connectionto my grandmother.
I had a session with Tara yesterday,and my grandmother came through
and mentioned the Matryushka dollsand literally said the Matryushka dolls,
not the nesting dolls.
(09:55):
And it was a really sweet acknowledgementbecause I always say that a part of it
is my connection to my grandmother.
So just circling back around tothe psychic woo- woo of it all.
Fucking nuts, dude.
Fucking nuts.Fucking nuts.
But yeah, so Billy Baca didmy detailed one, and then I
(10:19):
got the hand ones at Kattitude.
And then we've goneto Kelly Girvan at Red Stag often.
And again, I'll be seeing her tomorrow,who's been wonderful and trauma-informed.
And I think even down to whenthey let you know
(10:40):
everything that they're doing on the otherside of you, even if you can't see them
and they're in your periphery,she'll say, Okay, I'm going to start now.
And they might just do a littlebit and then say, Is it okay?
Can I keep going?And so that's been a really cool
experience to have as we're
(11:04):
continuing to get artwork.
Jason at Shaman Mod,
who did our piercings, and he did my nose
one a couple of years before that.
Last time when we were in there,I was like, Oh, my God.
I was like, Jason, it's just so cool.
You're so trauma-informed.
And he was like,I just think you should tell people
(11:25):
what you're doing to their bodies.It feels like common sense.
And yet But yeah, it's not.We get so...
There's so much there.
It's funny because he did our piercings,and then he had done the ear
piercings for my daughter.
We went when she was6 or 7 to get her ears pierced.
(11:48):
And the first time we went to Jason,she was too nervous about a man doing it,
and they don't pierce the child's ears if
the child seems scared.
And so she met him, and then he was like,I can't go through with it
because she's too scared.It wouldn't be right.
(12:10):
And I think just him doingthat made her feel really safe.
And even though she tends to want to workwith a female, a few weeks later, she
was like, I want to go back to that guy.
I really liked that guy.
And so we went back to him, and this time,
she was fully ready, and she went
(12:33):
through with it, and it was great.
And he did the same trauma-informedcare through her whole experience.
And now it was really sweet because she'sthinking about getting a second piercing.
She's almost 10 now.
And she's been talking about it for a fewmonths, but recently brought it up again.
(12:57):
And I had said to her, Well,your body, your choice.
If you want to get a secondpiercing, I support it.
And then she was talking to her friendin the car the other day,
and they were talking about piercings.
And she said, Yeah,my mom's view on piercings, tattoos,
everything is your body, your choice.
(13:18):
And I was like, Yes.
And you got to be 18 to get a tattoo.
Don't go to the kid behind the elementary
school, but mostly your body, your choice.
That's so cool.
Did you grow up in a your body,your choice house?
(13:41):
I'm sorry to do this to you, Faith,but no, I sure didn't.
What about you?
No, dude.
Not in the house, not in the church,the church that I was raised in.
None of it.
My mom wouldn't let me get my ears pierced
until I was 13, even though I begged and begged.
(14:04):
And then finally, when I was 13,she took me to Claire's.
And then she did let me geta second piercing soon after.
And then when I was 16, shelet me get a belly button piercing,
but I had to do something inschool in order to get that piercing.
(14:27):
And I hit the milestone,and she reluctantly let me get it.
Yeah.
So the ear piercing was very reluctant,but down the line,
she was a little more open.
You worked her down.
Yeah.What about Karen?
Karen?I got my ears pierced when I was 10.
(14:48):
I campaigned pretty hard for it similarly,and I think my thing
was like double digits.
Let's get this going.Yeah, make sense.
Let's get this going.
And similar, I went to Claire's,
and that's a wild place.
(15:09):
That's a wild place.
You know they do nose piercings now?
I saw that when we were in there lastwith your daughter, and I'm upset because
it's like a 19-year-old with a shakyhand from last night's hangover.
I'm not kidding.
This is crazy that this is...
I'm so nervous about all of that.
(15:31):
Very nervous about all of that.
But in the '90s,that was what we were doing.
In the '90s?That was what we were doing.
Get your butt to Claire's.Claire's was at the Natick Mall.
The first tattoo was near the Natick Mall.
Claire's was at the Natick Mallwhere I got the ears done.
Do you remember thoseearrings that you got?
(15:53):
Oh, yeah.I do, too.
Because you're stuckwith them for a while.
Stuck.What'd you get?
Little gold stars.
What about you?I love that.
I got a little sapphire set in gold.
So how do you feel about having tohave begged to get your ears pierced?
(16:14):
So at that point, I was pretty
steeped in the religion of it all.
And so I've been getting a lot of messagesabout my body belonging
to God or my husband.
And so it didn't feel shocking,but I remember being
(16:35):
just really frustrated.
And I didn't have language, my body,my choice, but I remember feeling very
disempowered around my choices,and I second-guessed myself.
Yeah, it felt shitty.
It felt really shitty.
Yeah, I know my parentsdidn't know any better.
And I remember how badly I wanted to get
(17:00):
my ears pierced and that it
was this forbidden thing.
And I thinkit gave the message that this was
inappropriate or slutty,
or was something that signified that I was
(17:21):
older than I was or something like that.
And so actually, I thinkthe big deal that was made about made
it a bigger deal than if I hadjust been allowed to do it.
It made it seem much more forbidden,which was a strange experience,
(17:43):
and it didn't have to be a big deal.
It also felt like it came from a place
of control or not wanting me to grow up.
And there was no stoppingbecause I developed pretty early.
So the years were really I'm notreally the least of our worries.
(18:07):
I think now when I make those choices,
I do have some I have some bad tattoos
that I- I'm an asshole.I'm nodding along.
Yeah.
I have some bad tattoos that I slightlyregret,
and I have sat through one one removal
(18:30):
session, and it's so fucking painful.
They're right.
It is much worse getting itremoved than getting it done.
ButI feel like they represent a part of me,
even if they're not representative of whoI am today, and even if it's bad artwork.
(18:56):
Yeah, I was an impulsive teen.
I was getting those tattoos and paradingthem around at Hollister,
my place of work.
It's really edgy for Hollister.Yes.
In fact, one of the other employeesgot the exact same one to copy me.
So you know?
(19:18):
But all of them feel like a part of me,
and I still appreciate them as I'm aging.
And though So the newer ones are a littlebit more thought out and less impulsive,
I still appreciateall the little works of art that I have.
(19:42):
What have tattoos been like on your hilling journey?
For me, getting tattoos felt like it's
always a honoring of my rebellious parts.
My family, nobody had tattoos,nobody has tattoos.
I think that my family wouldprefer that I didn't have them.
(20:08):
There's a part of it that's rebellion, and
a huge part of it that is a reclaiming of
my body, and a reclaiming of that choice.
And not just that choice,but other choices that were made about
my body that weren't from me,that I wouldn't have chosen.
(20:31):
And so getting to put myself in situations
that are potentially healing for these
kinds of interactions,of having somebody up close,
somebody maybe that's a stranger at first,and interacting with my body,
but knowing that it's going to be a safeexperience has been really helpful.
(20:52):
And there's this funny piece of it, too,that it feels like whenever you go through
a breakup and you change your hair.
I've gotten so many moretattoos this year than...
Yeah, and much more visiblein this year of divorce.
And yeah, so there's somany different pieces.
(21:14):
And I love the...
I'm one of the peoplethat loves how it feels.
I don't know if that'sdisplaying our kinks a little too much,
but I love how it feels.
Well, on a deeper sense,I always call it healthy self-harm.
And as a teen, I did do some self-harm.
(21:38):
And I think I have tattoos overthe areas where I harmed myself.
And it can be a controlled pain.
It's a pain that you're choosing.
It's a pain that somethingbeautiful comes out of.
It's a big deal for me that tomorrow willbe my first tattoo that I've gotten since
(22:01):
I got off blood thinnersafter my pulmonary embolism.
And it's interesting because I haddone a writer's group last year,
and our dear friend Andres,who will be on a future episode,
was in the writers group.
(22:23):
And at one point, he took us all outside,and he was like, This is crazy.
There's wisteria booming here.
And wisteria doesn't usuallybloom at this time of year.
And a lot of the members of the group werewriting about different types of grief.
And so it was really potent for our group.
(22:46):
And I recently did a trainingat the workshop, which is
where the writers group was.
And it just came to me like,oh, I need to get a tattoo.
I think I need to get Wisteria.
And I think it feels meaningful for me,even though I have a lot of silly tattoos,
(23:07):
and I love the silliness, too.
It feels really meaningful for methat that's my first tattoo now that I can
get tattoos again and I'm not on bloodthinners, that it'll be Wisteria.
I love that so much.
I love it so, so much.
(23:29):
Really I'm really jealousthat I'm not going to be there.
I know, but you will soon enough.
Kelly has done so many of our tattoosindividually, and we've gone together
twice, maybe?
I think we did our one together,and then we've popped in on each other's.
That's right.That's right.
(23:51):
Yeah.She was not...
While trauma-informed, she...
she was not thrilled to domy Taylor Swift tattoo, but she obliged.
She wouldn't put it on her Instagram.
Andthere was a teen in the tattoo shop when I
(24:14):
was getting it who was there with her mom,and she glanced over for a second,
and then she looked back and almoststarted crying, and she was like,
Oh, my God, I love that tattoo.
I just went to the Eras tour,and I was like, Me, too.
That's That's so cool.
Yeah.That's so cool.
And then we have a little best friendtattoo that says B-B-F-B
(24:40):
with the little best friend hearts.
I can get mine out.
What does that one stand for?
After I got it and I said,Well, we've got these now.
Do you want to say what it stands for?
(25:01):
It, of course, it, of course,stands for Bravo, Bravo, Fucking, Bravo,
which is a quote from Denise Richardson the Real Housewives of Bravo,
of Beverly Hills.
Because she was accused of sleepingwith another cast member,
and she heard that if you say, Bravo,bravo, fucking bravo, they can't film it.
(25:26):
Or if you say, Bravo, bravo,bravo, they can't film it.
And And so she said, Bravo, bravo, fuckingbravo, to get them to stop filming.
But they did not.Andy Cohen stops at nothing.
I need a camera.
Get us Andy and a camera.
Oh, so good.
I'm thinking about in my work with teens,how often this conversation has come up
(25:50):
from parents aroundthe kids dying their hair of a color
or a piercing or whatever it is.
And while Yes, having some rules
and some parameters makes sense.
I also love this opportunity of handing
(26:10):
that autonomy to the kids so
explicitly and such a reminder.
We were together when Camilla calledto ask about that,
and when I heard you say that,I lost it because it's so important
that especially girls in thissociety that we live in know that their
(26:31):
body is theirs and that theyget choices about it.
And the message there too for everybody,for boys and stuff,
that people's bodies are their own.
So anyways,I just love having that conversation
with parents and asking them,what message are you hoping to send here
with this choice orrule or whatever it is?
(26:55):
And then what message do youthink you're actually sending?
And I'm helping them reflect on like, oh,shit, maybe I'm miscommunicating
something or something is gettingwrapped up in that, that I actually am...
It's a misalignment on my values,our family values.
What are you going to say?
(27:17):
I still remember my mom saying when I was
younger that teenagers who dye their
hair were just looking for attention.
They didn't get enough attentionfrom their parents,
so they were dyeing their hair.
Actually, I found that with giving my kidsa lot more autonomy about
(27:39):
dyeing their hair or mydaughter became interested,
even though she's younger andexperimenting with makeup during COVID.
And we're in a different age because kidshave access to a lot of influencer
content, and so we alsohave to be careful of that.
But I was like, You know what?
If I share with her drag queen makeuptutorials,
(28:04):
that'll be a little different than ifshe's getting it around influencers.
And it became a thing where I'd let her do
my makeup as actually It wasreally a connecting thing.
It was in it that she received connection.
She wasn't looking for attention.
And I really try to give her autonomy overeverything she does,
(28:28):
if she wants to dye her wear or ifshe wants to experiment with makeup.
But I think when we were growing upand people were telling us
what to do with our bodies,it was actually that that gave us a lot
more of the messages than what we receivedfrom looking at other people
(28:51):
or wearing what we wanted to.
I'll never forget,we had a dress code at my school,
and my My favorite English teacher that Ialways wanted to impress so badly
came running down the auditorium one day
at morning meeting because my shirt
(29:13):
had gone a little bit above my belly.
And she was like,your shirt is above your belly.
And it's actuallythat that gave me the message that I was
being sexualized, not what I was wearing.
We Everybody has those...
We have those stories.
(29:34):
And that memory of her running at you,with such urgency, this was such urgency.
This is such a problem that we have to...
AndIt
feels really sad looking back on itthat it was somebody who I really wanted
to impress with my intellect and whousually I did impress with my intellect.
(29:56):
And she got stirred by myshirt I start rising a tiny bit above
my belly unintentionally because of wheremy backpack fell at morning meeting.
And that stayed with me forever.Yeah.
And You know what I think?
I think if she knew what that felt like,what that was going to do, I think she
(30:22):
would have handled that so differently.
And so that's that piece thatI tried to help parents with.
You might be unintentionallycommunicating something really painful.
Really painful.
I keep going back to how proud I waswhen I heard Camilla say, My body, my
choice around getting a second piercing.
(30:45):
Because in that same sense, she's notholding an urgency around it right now.
We're talking about maybe doing itwhen we go to New York for her
first time for her birthday.
There's no urgency around it.
Whereas when When I was a kid,I always really held an urgency around
these things because it was like, Oh,my parents could change
(31:05):
their mind at any second.Yes.
She's really sitting in my body,my choice, and feel It was like,
that's true for her.
That's been really sweet.
That's really cool.
I hadn't thought about that pieceof the urgency that it creates
(31:29):
when things are on a line likethat and you're having to...
Yeah.
Oh, that's so neat.
I used to get so nervouswhen I would get a tattoo.
I would be nauseous.
I would be sick.
I was so nervous.
And breathing through that,that response of like, Fuck, did
(31:53):
so much for me of remembering that thiswas my choice and I wanted this,
and the power of awareness of that.
I remember I had once told a tattooed man.
I was like, Yeah, I just fallasleep while I'm getting a tattoo.
(32:14):
If it's a long one, oh, yeah,I'm taking a little nap.
And he was like, What?
You're taking a nap during a tattoo?
And I was like, Yeah, men justcan't take the pain like we can.
But I often, as many tattooed gals do,
(32:35):
think of the something corporate lyrics.
I met a girl who kept tattoosfor homes that she had loved.
If I were her, I'd paint my bodytill all my skin was gone.
And I think about how it makes and
(32:55):
decorates your body, which is your home.
So thank you, Andrew McMahon,for those gorgeous lyrics.
And so many others.
So many others.
I had a friend say to her kiddo, Look,Ms. Lindsay has pictures on her body.
And I thought that was such a cute way tosay it, to talk about it with kids.
(33:20):
I thought that was a cute way.
It's just pictures on her body.
It's just pictures on your body.Just pictures.
Just pictures on your body.
Well, on that note, No.Let's wrap.
Let's wrap.Bye.
Bye.Thank you so much for joining us.
If you like what you heard, pleasesubscribe and consider leaving a review.
(33:41):
If you have already, thank you.
You can find us on all socials@Thehillingjourney.
You can find us online at www.thehillingjourney.com
and you can shoot us an emailat thehillingjourney@gmail.com
talk soon.
We are licensed therapists,but we probably aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful informationabout mental health,
it is best to form your individual careplan with your own mental
health professional.
If we are your therapists, hi.
While this podcast shares nuggetsof wisdom about mental health,
we are sharing many pieces of who we areoutside of the therapy room and doing
(00:32):
a lot of yapping about nonsense,our own healing work,
and some about sex and dating.
If you feel listening to this podcast mayinterfere with your work in therapy,
please refrain from doing so.
While we're on the subject,any notes from our dating lives have been
changed to protect the privacyof our partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to the Hilling Journey podcast.I'm Lindsay Camp.
(00:55):
And I'm Ilyse Kennedy.
And this is a podcastwhere two therapists besties...
Oh, I never do this part,so I don't have it memorized.
I know.
Do it.You do it.
Okay.
This is the podcast where two therapistsbesties talk about their hilling journeys
and interview others on their hillingjourneys and hillers that have
helped along the way.Hi, Lindsay.
(01:17):
Hi, Ilyse.
How are you?I am good.
How are you?I'm good.
I'm good.
So today we're talking about bodymodification, which is great because I
have a little tattoo appointmenttomorrow with our gal, Kelly Girvan.
That's right.Sorry about the fidgeting.
I'm trying to get my little fidget toy.
(01:38):
I texted you the other day.
Have you figured out whereyou're going to put it?
I am going to put it on my arm, I think.Cool.
And I am getting a wisteriato represent grief.
I love it.
I wish I was there with you all.
Me too, but you're always there in spirit.
(02:00):
And we're going to have her on the pod
I don't know if she's fully agreed,
but I pitched the idea, and you'll work it.
I'll chat with her tomorrow.
I would love to have her as a guestto talk about
body mod from a professional level.
But yeah, we're going to gab about itas two tattooed girls.
(02:24):
What was your first tattoo?
My first tattoo was this.
This little ampersand, I had,I think I was 28,
and I got it with a bestie at thetime, RIP, that relationship.
I was in my practicum years of grad school
(02:49):
and was working in a really wacky
situation.
I don't think I've I'veever told you this.
Let's hear it.Name 'em.
I don't think I've ever told you this.
Name 'em.
(03:09):
Okay, so I don't think I've toldmany people this, if anybody.
So in grad school,that practicum process was daunting.
They give you that list,but all the places have spots reserved
for UT kids, Texas State kids, yada, yada.
(03:31):
I decided to go off the list and started
cold calling private practices.
This one gentleman took me on as an intern
The lesson on ethics that I got
during that time was tremendous.
(03:53):
What we would do was wewould do collaborative therapy.
I would sit in on his sessions,and the way that it would work was that...
And all the clients knew this,they consented to it.
We would pause in the middleof the session, turn to each other,
(04:14):
and process out loud what we werethinking thus far.
Wow.
And do a little back and forthfor a couple of minutes.
What?
So is that why you got an ampersand?
Because you were doing a yes and?
Yeah.So a client in that context,
(04:36):
in that setting, was speaking about their
yes and exercise in improv classes.Of course.
I know all about it.Of course.
Of course, you do youtheater junky, Theater Kid.
Theater nerd.Theater nerd.
Yeah.So anyways.
So that's what I was up to in 2015-ish.10 years?
(05:00):
Oh, 10 years ago, my first tattoo.
But yeah, I liked the ideaof containing multitudes.
Well, that's why they say,Don't get a tattoo until your brain is
fully developed, becauseI've made some mistakes.
I sat down and was in the chair and hadpaid for a tattoo about 10 years
(05:23):
prior to that when I was about 18.
And thankfully, I didn't get that onebecause what it was was
And I was really proud of it,I co-designed it with the
label on a bottle of tanningcream from the tanning salon.
And it was like wings.
And where the wings connected,it was like a heart.
(05:44):
I remember.I remember.
Yeah.Disgusting.
So I thankfully didn't get that tattoo.
What were you up to beforeyour brain was formed?
I did get the tattoo.
And though we had looked up a few placesand settled on a great one
in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Wait, this is a toothless man, right?
(06:05):
Yeah.
It was closed that day.
So we went to where was open,which was Route Nine Tattoo
on Route 9 by the Natick Mall.
And I sat on the table of a gentlemanwith many missing teeth.
I know now, likely for meth,but wasn't aware at the time.
(06:29):
Andsat down to get three stars across
my pelvic bone...All the way across,
not small stars as my friend got that day.
Large stars all the way across, which, hisartistry, unfortunately,
has not held up over the years.
The lines have fallen out,and it was clear that he was going over
(06:54):
his own work several timesbecause the lines were not straight.
And that's what can happenbefore your brain fully develops.
Actually, when I got my hand tattoos,
which I do love, they said that their
age of consent now to get anything on your
(07:16):
hand is actually 26, because that's when
your frontal lobe finishes developing.
You know what?
I was going to talk about thislater, but I'm going to bring it up now.
Let's hear it.I am so impressed with the...
(07:39):
And there are so many horror stories outthere of artists exploiting their
position of power in that moment.
What I've encountered isso many artists and studios that are
intentionally, and also some of themunknowingly, tattooed the trauma-informed.
(08:02):
Yes.
And I have this pamphletfrom No Good Tattoo that is all about how
they are trauma-informed and this is whatyou should expect when people
are interacting with your body.
And I am just so grateful that that'sin a part of that culture because it's
been so healing for meto experience somebody
(08:26):
being so mindful aboutthe interaction that we're as two bodies
and two people with historiesand stories about things.
And yeah, I've just been so moved by that.
I'll cry about it right now.
Yeah.
I'll shout out a few of the places I'vegone to in Austin that have also been
(08:50):
trauma-informed, not explicitly where theyhave a pamphlet,
but just the entire process has beentrauma-informed down to a questionnaire
that asks specifics,but I've gotten more of my detail work
done at Catitude Tattoo in Austin.
All the artists have beenvery trauma-informed.
(09:12):
Billy Baca did Forthose watching on video, my really
beautiful- She's so pretty.
Matryushka doll, which,by the way, I have this Matryushka
tattoo and then the ones on my fingers.
(09:35):
I've gotten them asa representation of those parts of myself,
but it's also a connectionto my grandmother.
I had a session with Tara yesterday,and my grandmother came through
and mentioned the Matryushka dollsand literally said the Matryushka dolls,
not the nesting dolls.
(09:55):
And it was a really sweet acknowledgementbecause I always say that a part of it
is my connection to my grandmother.
So just circling back around tothe psychic woo- woo of it all.
Fucking nuts, dude.
Fucking nuts.Fucking nuts.
But yeah, so Billy Baca didmy detailed one, and then I
(10:19):
got the hand ones at Kattitude.
And then we've goneto Kelly Girvan at Red Stag often.
And again, I'll be seeing her tomorrow,who's been wonderful and trauma-informed.
And I think even down to whenthey let you know
(10:40):
everything that they're doing on the otherside of you, even if you can't see them
and they're in your periphery,she'll say, Okay, I'm going to start now.
And they might just do a littlebit and then say, Is it okay?
Can I keep going?And so that's been a really cool
experience to have as we're
(11:04):
continuing to get artwork.
Jason at Shaman Mod,
who did our piercings, and he did my nose
one a couple of years before that.
Last time when we were in there,I was like, Oh, my God.
I was like, Jason, it's just so cool.
You're so trauma-informed.
And he was like,I just think you should tell people
(11:25):
what you're doing to their bodies.It feels like common sense.
And yet But yeah, it's not.We get so...
There's so much there.
It's funny because he did our piercings,and then he had done the ear
piercings for my daughter.
We went when she was6 or 7 to get her ears pierced.
(11:48):
And the first time we went to Jason,she was too nervous about a man doing it,
and they don't pierce the child's ears if
the child seems scared.
And so she met him, and then he was like,I can't go through with it
because she's too scared.It wouldn't be right.
(12:10):
And I think just him doingthat made her feel really safe.
And even though she tends to want to workwith a female, a few weeks later, she
was like, I want to go back to that guy.
I really liked that guy.
And so we went back to him, and this time,
she was fully ready, and she went
(12:33):
through with it, and it was great.
And he did the same trauma-informedcare through her whole experience.
And now it was really sweet because she'sthinking about getting a second piercing.
She's almost 10 now.
And she's been talking about it for a fewmonths, but recently brought it up again.
(12:57):
And I had said to her, Well,your body, your choice.
If you want to get a secondpiercing, I support it.
And then she was talking to her friendin the car the other day,
and they were talking about piercings.
And she said, Yeah,my mom's view on piercings, tattoos,
everything is your body, your choice.
(13:18):
And I was like, Yes.
And you got to be 18 to get a tattoo.
Don't go to the kid behind the elementary
school, but mostly your body, your choice.
That's so cool.
Did you grow up in a your body,your choice house?
(13:41):
I'm sorry to do this to you, Faith,but no, I sure didn't.
What about you?
No, dude.
Not in the house, not in the church,the church that I was raised in.
None of it.
My mom wouldn't let me get my ears pierced
until I was 13, even though I begged and begged.
(14:04):
And then finally, when I was 13,she took me to Claire's.
And then she did let me geta second piercing soon after.
And then when I was 16, shelet me get a belly button piercing,
but I had to do something inschool in order to get that piercing.
(14:27):
And I hit the milestone,and she reluctantly let me get it.
Yeah.
So the ear piercing was very reluctant,but down the line,
she was a little more open.
You worked her down.
Yeah.What about Karen?
Karen?I got my ears pierced when I was 10.
(14:48):
I campaigned pretty hard for it similarly,and I think my thing
was like double digits.
Let's get this going.Yeah, make sense.
Let's get this going.
And similar, I went to Claire's,
and that's a wild place.
(15:09):
That's a wild place.
You know they do nose piercings now?
I saw that when we were in there lastwith your daughter, and I'm upset because
it's like a 19-year-old with a shakyhand from last night's hangover.
I'm not kidding.
This is crazy that this is...
I'm so nervous about all of that.
(15:31):
Very nervous about all of that.
But in the '90s,that was what we were doing.
In the '90s?That was what we were doing.
Get your butt to Claire's.Claire's was at the Natick Mall.
The first tattoo was near the Natick Mall.
Claire's was at the Natick Mallwhere I got the ears done.
Do you remember thoseearrings that you got?
(15:53):
Oh, yeah.I do, too.
Because you're stuckwith them for a while.
Stuck.What'd you get?
Little gold stars.
What about you?I love that.
I got a little sapphire set in gold.
So how do you feel about having tohave begged to get your ears pierced?
(16:14):
So at that point, I was pretty
steeped in the religion of it all.
And so I've been getting a lot of messagesabout my body belonging
to God or my husband.
And so it didn't feel shocking,but I remember being
(16:35):
just really frustrated.
And I didn't have language, my body,my choice, but I remember feeling very
disempowered around my choices,and I second-guessed myself.
Yeah, it felt shitty.
It felt really shitty.
Yeah, I know my parentsdidn't know any better.
And I remember how badly I wanted to get
(17:00):
my ears pierced and that it
was this forbidden thing.
And I thinkit gave the message that this was
inappropriate or slutty,
or was something that signified that I was
(17:21):
older than I was or something like that.
And so actually, I thinkthe big deal that was made about made
it a bigger deal than if I hadjust been allowed to do it.
It made it seem much more forbidden,which was a strange experience,
(17:43):
and it didn't have to be a big deal.
It also felt like it came from a place
of control or not wanting me to grow up.
And there was no stoppingbecause I developed pretty early.
So the years were really I'm notreally the least of our worries.
(18:07):
I think now when I make those choices,
I do have some I have some bad tattoos
that I- I'm an asshole.I'm nodding along.
Yeah.
I have some bad tattoos that I slightlyregret,
and I have sat through one one removal
(18:30):
session, and it's so fucking painful.
They're right.
It is much worse getting itremoved than getting it done.
ButI feel like they represent a part of me,
even if they're not representative of whoI am today, and even if it's bad artwork.
(18:56):
Yeah, I was an impulsive teen.
I was getting those tattoos and paradingthem around at Hollister,
my place of work.
It's really edgy for Hollister.Yes.
In fact, one of the other employeesgot the exact same one to copy me.
So you know?
(19:18):
But all of them feel like a part of me,
and I still appreciate them as I'm aging.
And though So the newer ones are a littlebit more thought out and less impulsive,
I still appreciateall the little works of art that I have.
(19:42):
What have tattoos been like on your hilling journey?
For me, getting tattoos felt like it's
always a honoring of my rebellious parts.
My family, nobody had tattoos,nobody has tattoos.
I think that my family wouldprefer that I didn't have them.
(20:08):
There's a part of it that's rebellion, and
a huge part of it that is a reclaiming of
my body, and a reclaiming of that choice.
And not just that choice,but other choices that were made about
my body that weren't from me,that I wouldn't have chosen.
(20:31):
And so getting to put myself in situations
that are potentially healing for these
kinds of interactions,of having somebody up close,
somebody maybe that's a stranger at first,and interacting with my body,
but knowing that it's going to be a safeexperience has been really helpful.
(20:52):
And there's this funny piece of it, too,that it feels like whenever you go through
a breakup and you change your hair.
I've gotten so many moretattoos this year than...
Yeah, and much more visiblein this year of divorce.
And yeah, so there's somany different pieces.
(21:14):
And I love the...
I'm one of the peoplethat loves how it feels.
I don't know if that'sdisplaying our kinks a little too much,
but I love how it feels.
Well, on a deeper sense,I always call it healthy self-harm.
And as a teen, I did do some self-harm.
(21:38):
And I think I have tattoos overthe areas where I harmed myself.
And it can be a controlled pain.
It's a pain that you're choosing.
It's a pain that somethingbeautiful comes out of.
It's a big deal for me that tomorrow willbe my first tattoo that I've gotten since
(22:01):
I got off blood thinnersafter my pulmonary embolism.
And it's interesting because I haddone a writer's group last year,
and our dear friend Andres,who will be on a future episode,
was in the writers group.
(22:23):
And at one point, he took us all outside,and he was like, This is crazy.
There's wisteria booming here.
And wisteria doesn't usuallybloom at this time of year.
And a lot of the members of the group werewriting about different types of grief.
And so it was really potent for our group.
(22:46):
And I recently did a trainingat the workshop, which is
where the writers group was.
And it just came to me like,oh, I need to get a tattoo.
I think I need to get Wisteria.
And I think it feels meaningful for me,even though I have a lot of silly tattoos,
(23:07):
and I love the silliness, too.
It feels really meaningful for methat that's my first tattoo now that I can
get tattoos again and I'm not on bloodthinners, that it'll be Wisteria.
I love that so much.
I love it so, so much.
(23:29):
Really I'm really jealousthat I'm not going to be there.
I know, but you will soon enough.
Kelly has done so many of our tattoosindividually, and we've gone together
twice, maybe?
I think we did our one together,and then we've popped in on each other's.
That's right.That's right.
(23:51):
Yeah.She was not...
While trauma-informed, she...
she was not thrilled to domy Taylor Swift tattoo, but she obliged.
She wouldn't put it on her Instagram.
Andthere was a teen in the tattoo shop when I
(24:14):
was getting it who was there with her mom,and she glanced over for a second,
and then she looked back and almoststarted crying, and she was like,
Oh, my God, I love that tattoo.
I just went to the Eras tour,and I was like, Me, too.
That's That's so cool.
Yeah.That's so cool.
And then we have a little best friendtattoo that says B-B-F-B
(24:40):
with the little best friend hearts.
I can get mine out.
What does that one stand for?
After I got it and I said,Well, we've got these now.
Do you want to say what it stands for?
(25:01):
It, of course, it, of course,stands for Bravo, Bravo, Fucking, Bravo,
which is a quote from Denise Richardson the Real Housewives of Bravo,
of Beverly Hills.
Because she was accused of sleepingwith another cast member,
and she heard that if you say, Bravo,bravo, fucking bravo, they can't film it.
(25:26):
Or if you say, Bravo, bravo,bravo, they can't film it.
And And so she said, Bravo, bravo, fuckingbravo, to get them to stop filming.
But they did not.Andy Cohen stops at nothing.
I need a camera.
Get us Andy and a camera.
Oh, so good.
I'm thinking about in my work with teens,how often this conversation has come up
(25:50):
from parents aroundthe kids dying their hair of a color
or a piercing or whatever it is.
And while Yes, having some rules
and some parameters makes sense.
I also love this opportunity of handing
(26:10):
that autonomy to the kids so
explicitly and such a reminder.
We were together when Camilla calledto ask about that,
and when I heard you say that,I lost it because it's so important
that especially girls in thissociety that we live in know that their
(26:31):
body is theirs and that theyget choices about it.
And the message there too for everybody,for boys and stuff,
that people's bodies are their own.
So anyways,I just love having that conversation
with parents and asking them,what message are you hoping to send here
with this choice orrule or whatever it is?
(26:55):
And then what message do youthink you're actually sending?
And I'm helping them reflect on like, oh,shit, maybe I'm miscommunicating
something or something is gettingwrapped up in that, that I actually am...
It's a misalignment on my values,our family values.
What are you going to say?
(27:17):
I still remember my mom saying when I was
younger that teenagers who dye their
hair were just looking for attention.
They didn't get enough attentionfrom their parents,
so they were dyeing their hair.
Actually, I found that with giving my kidsa lot more autonomy about
(27:39):
dyeing their hair or mydaughter became interested,
even though she's younger andexperimenting with makeup during COVID.
And we're in a different age because kidshave access to a lot of influencer
content, and so we alsohave to be careful of that.
But I was like, You know what?
If I share with her drag queen makeuptutorials,
(28:04):
that'll be a little different than ifshe's getting it around influencers.
And it became a thing where I'd let her do
my makeup as actually It wasreally a connecting thing.
It was in it that she received connection.
She wasn't looking for attention.
And I really try to give her autonomy overeverything she does,
(28:28):
if she wants to dye her wear or ifshe wants to experiment with makeup.
But I think when we were growing upand people were telling us
what to do with our bodies,it was actually that that gave us a lot
more of the messages than what we receivedfrom looking at other people
(28:51):
or wearing what we wanted to.
I'll never forget,we had a dress code at my school,
and my My favorite English teacher that Ialways wanted to impress so badly
came running down the auditorium one day
at morning meeting because my shirt
(29:13):
had gone a little bit above my belly.
And she was like,your shirt is above your belly.
And it's actuallythat that gave me the message that I was
being sexualized, not what I was wearing.
We Everybody has those...
We have those stories.
(29:34):
And that memory of her running at you,with such urgency, this was such urgency.
This is such a problem that we have to...
AndIt
feels really sad looking back on itthat it was somebody who I really wanted
to impress with my intellect and whousually I did impress with my intellect.
(29:56):
And she got stirred by myshirt I start rising a tiny bit above
my belly unintentionally because of wheremy backpack fell at morning meeting.
And that stayed with me forever.Yeah.
And You know what I think?
I think if she knew what that felt like,what that was going to do, I think she
(30:22):
would have handled that so differently.
And so that's that piece thatI tried to help parents with.
You might be unintentionallycommunicating something really painful.
Really painful.
I keep going back to how proud I waswhen I heard Camilla say, My body, my
choice around getting a second piercing.
(30:45):
Because in that same sense, she's notholding an urgency around it right now.
We're talking about maybe doing itwhen we go to New York for her
first time for her birthday.
There's no urgency around it.
Whereas when When I was a kid,I always really held an urgency around
these things because it was like, Oh,my parents could change
(31:05):
their mind at any second.Yes.
She's really sitting in my body,my choice, and feel It was like,
that's true for her.
That's been really sweet.
That's really cool.
I hadn't thought about that pieceof the urgency that it creates
(31:29):
when things are on a line likethat and you're having to...
Yeah.
Oh, that's so neat.
I used to get so nervouswhen I would get a tattoo.
I would be nauseous.
I would be sick.
I was so nervous.
And breathing through that,that response of like, Fuck, did
(31:53):
so much for me of remembering that thiswas my choice and I wanted this,
and the power of awareness of that.
I remember I had once told a tattooed man.
I was like, Yeah, I just fallasleep while I'm getting a tattoo.
(32:14):
If it's a long one, oh, yeah,I'm taking a little nap.
And he was like, What?
You're taking a nap during a tattoo?
And I was like, Yeah, men justcan't take the pain like we can.
But I often, as many tattooed gals do,
(32:35):
think of the something corporate lyrics.
I met a girl who kept tattoosfor homes that she had loved.
If I were her, I'd paint my bodytill all my skin was gone.
And I think about how it makes and
(32:55):
decorates your body, which is your home.
So thank you, Andrew McMahon,for those gorgeous lyrics.
And so many others.
So many others.
I had a friend say to her kiddo, Look,Ms. Lindsay has pictures on her body.
And I thought that was such a cute way tosay it, to talk about it with kids.
(33:20):
I thought that was a cute way.
It's just pictures on her body.
It's just pictures on your body.Just pictures.
Just pictures on your body.
Well, on that note, No.Let's wrap.
Let's wrap.Bye.
Bye.Thank you so much for joining us.
If you like what you heard, pleasesubscribe and consider leaving a review.
(33:41):
If you have already, thank you.
You can find us on all socials@Thehillingjourney.
You can find us online at www.thehillingjourney.com
and you can shoot us an emailat thehillingjourney@gmail.com
talk soon.
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