February 21, 2025 • 47 mins
In episode 2, Lindsay interviews Ilyse as they get in to the nitty gritty of grieving a divorce. From ketamine therapy to Taylor Swift, and a grief retreat featuring Megan Thee Stallion. These besties continue to give the lay of the land for their hilling journeys, pop culture references, and deep friendship.
Buy Ilyse's book "The Tender Parts"
For more information visit www.thehillingjourney.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We are licensed therapists, but
we probably aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful information about mental
health, it is best to form your individual
(00:20):
care plan with your own mental health professional.
If we are your therapist hi!
While this podcast shares nuggets of wisdom about mental
health, we are sharing many pieces of who we
are outside of the therapy room and doing a lot
of yapping about nonsense, our own healing work, and
some about sex and dating.
If you feel listening to this podcast may
interfere with your work in therapy, please refrain
(00:42):
from doing so. While we're on the subject,
any notes from our dating lives have been changed
to protect the privacy of our partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome back to the Hilling Journey Podcast.
I'm Lindsay Camp and this is a podcast where
two therapist besties talk about their hilling journeys and
interview hillers who have helped along the way.
I'm joined today with my co-host Ilyse Kennedy.
(01:06):
She's a trauma therapist and owner of a
group practice, Moving Parts Psychotherapy, where she's a
supervisor for associates working toward licensure.
She's the author of a greatly reviewed
book, "The Tender Parts (01:16):
a Guide to
Healing Trauma Through Internal Family systems Therapy."
She's a divorced queen who is a
single mom to three amazing children.
When she's not therapizing, she can be found at
Barton Springs or at a local music venue.
She's also my whimsical bestie, my work wife, an
occasional roommate, the city mouse to my country mouse,
(01:37):
and in the words of Victoria Gunvalson, the OG
of the oc, my friend, my sister, my soulmate.
Welcome Ilyse. Thank you.
Now I want to orient us a bit
with some of your own words about yourself. Absolutely.
You penned to paper a text to a male
suitor that included the following description of yourself, "Always
(01:58):
up to some wacky spiritual shit that makes me
sob as much as it makes me laugh." Accurate. Still true.
Still co signing on that one. Yes.
Okay, so we can't talk about
healing without talking about your book. Fair.
Let's start there.
Tell me about the origin of it.
Tell us about the book.
Back in the day I was a
(02:18):
light mental health influencer on Instagram.
I picked up a following in the midst of
COVID when we were all wondering what the fuck was
happening and latching on to anything we could and
people latched on to my Instagram.
(02:39):
From there I had gotten a few agents reaching out
to me or publishing houses and this gentleman really liked
my brand and he thought I could get some pen
to paper and create a book and So I,
(02:59):
wanted to write a book that was very trauma informed
because I feel like actually a lot of books on
trauma clients read them, but it kicks up their own
trauma because the way that they're written, there's not enough
care given to the people who will be reading them
that maybe haven't done their own trauma work yet or
(03:23):
don't have any container outside of the book.
And we know that therapy is very expensive.
And so I wanted to write a book that
offered clients who maybe don't have the funds for
therapy a contained way to start moving into working
through trauma and internal family systems has been a
(03:46):
modality that's been really paramount to my work in
therapy and my work with clients.
It's this idea that we all have different parts of ourselves
and when we get to know those parts of ourselves better,
we can be with them in order to heal them and
they relax back so they don't need to be as active.
(04:07):
So like our depressive parts
or our people pleasing parts.
And so that was sort of the concept of the book.
That book also came out as my marriage
was ending and was almost like a catalyst
for the ending of my marriage.
And so there's this double sided thing
(04:31):
where I experienced one of the--
One of my biggest childhood dreams which was to write
a book and such an important piece in my career.
And it also pushed me into this next
stage of life where I was ending my marriage.
I don't think I've told you this, but I was in
Camilla's room the other day, your oldest daughter, and she was
(04:53):
showing me some outfits she had put together and there was
this like tiny wedding dress in her closet.
I was like, what is this?
And she's like, oh, that was for mom's
book party that got canceled because of weather.
And I was like, oh, it's so gorgeous.
And I was thinking a lot about that.
Yeah, that time.
And you had like, Max was your youngest was also
(05:16):
kind of in the mix of all of that.
Like you were writing the book,
you were growing a baby. And then. Yeah.
Thinking about how that was one of the
parts too of things changing for you. Yeah.
I literally found out I was pregnant with my third child
the day that I received my book contract to sign.
(05:36):
That's right.
And I was devastated about the pregnancy
because I didn't know how I was
gonna write this book alongside being pregnant.
But it actually allowed my ADHD brain to
fucking finish the manuscript in nine months.
(05:58):
I was working like up until I went to
the hospital for labor and I do not think
that I could have gotten that book finished if
I hadn't been pregnant and had, like a serious
deadline of, like, when that needed to be done.
So that's a good ADHD hack.
If you have to finish a project,
(06:22):
coincide it with a naturally occurring.
Yeah, totally. Get pregnant. Get pregnant. Totally.
So two parts to this one is that
a lot of our healing this past year,
year plus, has been oriented around grief.
The grief of your marriage,
Dreidel girl passing away, etc.
(06:45):
What do you want to share off
the top about your healing journey?
Like, where you are, what
you're grieving, what you're healing? I know.
Lay your cards down, down, down, down.
So I think there's not enough attention given to how
(07:06):
much grief is wrapped up in ending a marriage.
And I would not have known
unless I experienced it myself.
We don't give people permission to grieve
a marriage or a relationship like we
give people permission to grieve a death.
And even when we give people permission to grieve
a death, we don't give them enough permission.
(07:28):
The time or space. Yeah.
Even getting bereavement time off from
work, it's such a minuscule time.
But there's no bereavement time for divorce.
And when you're grieving a divorce, you're not
only grieving the relationship, you're grieving the vision
(07:50):
that you had for your future, you're grieving
the plans that you made.
You're grieving the parts of yourself that grew up with
this person, the parts of yourself that got into that
relationship in the first place and maybe pushed past knowing
it wasn't the right fit for you.
But for whatever reason, staying
(08:12):
in it, you're grieving.
If you have children or other people who might
be affected, you're making a huge decision that uproots
and changes the course of their lives.
And you're grieving what their expectation was
and the safety that their attachment systems
(08:33):
latched onto within that relationship.
And so I had experienced this depth of emotion
like I never experienced before, even though I've been
through plenty of traumas in my life.
But this was very new to me.
And I also had this professional Persona of,
(08:56):
like, being a very visual group practice owner.
Like, I'm the face of my practice.
I have associates that depend on me.
I had to keep the business running.
And then there's the outward, like, even
further social media presence and then the
presence of putting out this book.
(09:17):
And so there was some shame attached to having
this outward Persona and feeling like I Was like,
my marriage failed and, like, I couldn't fix it.
And I couldn't fix it enough for my kids.
And I was going to be causing them this huge
(09:39):
trauma when I'm a trauma therapist, and I know.
And I've worked with children of divorce, both children and
adults, and I know the deep impact that that has.
So to make that decision for
my own family was terrifying. Yeah.
And I could put everything in place for
(10:00):
them, like, started them in therapy
The second I knew that this was going to be coming.
Yeah.
So that they would have the support.
But it doesn't protect them because they have
to feel the feelings and the grief.
And it didn't protect me.
With all my therapeutic support, I still had
(10:20):
to feel the feelings and the grief.
And when you're experiencing a type of pain that is
completely new, you don't know what to latch onto.
So I looked towards everything your eyes can fall upon.
So my first endeavor actually connects probably back
(10:44):
to the book and to the IFS community.
I received an email about a grief retreat.
I was completely dissociated.
I signed right up.
Then a few months later, as the date
was coming up, and I forgot that I
had made this commitment and a full weekend.
A full weekend commitment.
(11:05):
I must have put down over
$500 to attend, but couldn't remember.
Totally didn't know what a grief retreat was.
No insight at all.
As the date was approaching, I received an
email with a supply list of what to
bring, amongst which was comfortable clothes.
(11:30):
If you want any snacks, like, stuff would be provided.
Bring your own drum. That's right.
And I sent you a screenshot and you said, am I
seeing this correctly, that it says, bring your own drum?
Where are you going? Yes, and I..What are you doing.
I couldn't tell you now what ended
(11:50):
up transpiring at that first endeavor into
alternative, alternate forms of healing.
A grief retreat is quite beautiful, to be honest.
This one was facilitated specifically
for internal family systems therapists.
So not only are you with a group of,
like, semi strangers, which, by the way, a lot
(12:12):
of them I did know from the IFS community.
And I'm not gonna speak to anybody's
experience besides my own, because what we
witnessed and experienced is confidential to us.
Absolutely.
In the cuddle puddle.
There was a cuddle puddle. Yes.
Now, a grief retreat is, of
(12:34):
course, appropriated from African tradition.
There's a beautiful book that I came to know
called the Wild Edge of Sorrow that promotes grief
retreats because in grieving, we often, in, like, westernized
culture, we leave people to grieve on their own.
(12:55):
And so the idea is that when we offer a space
for people to come and grieve, they're not doing it alone.
They're doing it in community.
This will sound nutty to outsiders,
but it was really, really beautiful. Yeah.
And there's not a lot of spaces like
that, nor do we often seek those out.
(13:16):
And so you bring items for an altar,
and, like, people bring photos of their loved
ones or photos and stuff that represent, like,
the loss of their marriage or whatever
they're grieving.
And we oriented to the space, kind
of shared why we were all there.
(13:36):
There were some other people grieving divorce.
So I wasn't the only one.
And as the grief ritual starts, candles are
lit, there's dark lighting, and you're literally just
in this room for, like, two straight days.
Like, well, not two continuous straight days.
(13:56):
It was like a nine to five. Okay.
Like, food was offered, and you could kind of, like, go
out, but it's best not to eat because you might vomit.
Yeah.
And people did. Yeah.
And drumming starts, and people are sharing their
grief stories, and then they're, like, wailing together.
(14:20):
They're sobbing, they're holding each
other, they're gathering in circle.
For my particular ritual, I.
There was a song that became, like, very
important to me in my grieving process.
(14:41):
Like, music is very important to me in
general in my grieving and everyday life.
But there was a song that became very
important to me in my grieving process.
And so I.
I shared that song, and I asked if we could,
like, gather in a circle so I could play it.
(15:03):
I shared the story of, like,
the dissolution of my marriage.
I cried a little, but it was all
so fresh that I was a bit dissociated,
and I couldn't fully, like, process the grief.
I still felt it stuck, even though it
felt really nice to be gathered like that.
And then the person before me had ended in
(15:25):
a little Irish jig after they processed their grief.
And I thought, you know what?
I think we need to dance this out.
Let's move it through the body.
Let's move it through the body.
And so once we played the sad song, I
asked, is it possible to get a dance party
going so that I can move this through?
(15:47):
And the.
The wonderful woman who was leading
the retreat Ann Sinko said, absolutely.
What is your divine feminine song?
And I said, not appropriate for this venue.
Now, I was the youngest amongst a group of therapists
(16:09):
that were upwards of 60 and 70 years old. Our favorite.
Yeah, mostly women. Great.
And she Insisted that we listen
to my actual divine feminine song.
So what were we hitting play on?
We were hitting play on Hot Girl Summer.
But first she bathed me in the
waters that were allegedly touched by Aphrodite.
(16:33):
Like, sprinkled these waters on me in this circle.
So the song started.
They insisted on the unedited version, which I won't
read the lyrics to, but you can imagine.
I said Hot Girl Summer by Megan
the stallion that's with two E's.
(16:54):
And the circle broke into dance.
These women had never heard this song before. No.
The men quickly removed themselves from the circle.
The first time they heard the word, the P word.
I won't, I won't say.
They wanted us to have a safe space.
Space together.
And honestly, it did a lot for me. Absolutely.
(17:16):
I'm laughing, but I also know that this was
a very serious, a very healing moment for you.
A very healing, moment. Yes.
Okay, so you play Hot Girl Summer,
you all dance and move this beautiful
divine feminine that you've connected with. Sure.
And then I caught wind that you, at the end
(17:39):
of that grief retreat, signed up for a second one.
So yes, at the end of that, some people
were asking, when can we do this again?
And she kind of joked like,
well, my next one's in Ireland. Uh huh.
And I signed right up.
You sure did. So. You sure did. Yeah.
(18:00):
A few months later, I was
off to Ireland for more healing.
That one, I think I was pretty
dissociated and it didn't fully register
that you were like in Ireland, right?
Like the countryside of Ireland. Yes.
Doing your grief work there?
(18:20):
Lots of hilling work was lots of
hilling in the countryside of Ireland.
Actually, the second grief retreat, because I had
done other healing along the way and I was
more present and back in my body, I
still had like the music aspect.
I had like made a little playlist to kind
(18:42):
of accompany me and play in the background.
And it did end with a great circle
to Noah Kahan, which was very sweet.
Oh, that one.
It really moved through something.
Yeah, I did like a guttural yell
(19:04):
to move through the rage pieces.
Yeah, yeah.
And most of the people had come from the U.S.
and so we were all there specifically
to like be with our grief.
Like we had flown across the
world to be with our grief.
And there were three of us with very parallel stories.
(19:26):
And I think that was the most profound piece for me.
Those two other people that had very similar stories
to mine and getting to hear that, like, this
person was still a good parent even Though they
knew they had to end their relationship.
(19:46):
And this person is still a really good therapist.
Yeah.
Even though they experienced a traumatic relationship, it allowed
me to take in their stories and almost
as if I was witnessing myself. Yeah.
And take that back as, oh, this is how I see them.
(20:09):
This is how I can see me. Yeah.
And those two people, we kind
of gravitated towards each other to be
accompanying in their grief ritual process.
And that was really important and profound. Yeah.
That makes me.
(20:30):
That makes me think about how interwoven our
grief and our healing journeys have been and
that there have been so many.
Yeah.
Like parallel processes there.
Can you speak a little bit about that?
So this will be kind of like a
two part one, our friendship and then two. Yeah.
(20:54):
Like the convergence of our healing
journeys and all that overlap.
I think a lot of people don't have
friends that they meet in their 30s.
I often hear people looking
for friendship in their 30s.
(21:16):
And I've felt very lucky to have
experienced close friendships throughout my life.
Like, I have people that I've
been with since elementary school.
I have people that I've been with since college.
And then I've been able to still continue to
meet people in my 30s, which is really cool.
(21:39):
And I recognize that so many people do not have that.
Yeah.
So it feels really special that I have you as
a friend that I've met in this stage of life.
It's hard, right, because in their--
In your 30s, most, a lot of people, like, it's
They're heavy on, like, raising their family or career.
(22:02):
Like, there's some really big parts that take
up a lot of time and energy. Yeah.
When I became a mom, I also went through a
big grieving process and I felt very isolated because I
was the first of my friends to have a baby.
And so I was kind of used to having
(22:25):
friendships with other people that didn't have young kids.
I was also lucky to meet some
people that did have young kids.
But I didn't feel foreign to having
friends that didn't have young kids.
And I didn't stay attached to only having
friends that had the same life as me.
(22:50):
And I think you don't give off play date mom vibes.
Not quite.
Not quite. Yeah.
And it became really important for me
as my kids were growing up.
And I think being in grad school and
having my career as a therapist, allowed
(23:10):
me to continue to meet new people.
But it became paramount for me to hold
those dates with friends, to hold on to the parts
of myself that are very easily lost through motherhood.
Motherhood is one of the most profound
experiences of change we can go through.
(23:31):
Like, biologically, our brains just change.
There are literally new attachment pathways formed in your
brain from the first two weeks of gestation.
Because of that profound change in biology and
then that profound change in lifestyle, we can
(23:52):
end up burying the parts of ourselves
that we had before we became mothers.
And making friendship a priority as self care helped me
to hold on to the parts of myself that it felt
like I lost when I became a mother, they weren't gone.
They were just pushed more
(24:13):
deeply down to protect them.
Once I became divorced, I could uncover those
parts of myself and lean back into my friendships
in a different way, which was really important then
for moving through the grief of divorce.
(24:37):
Hello, I'm Lindsey Camp, and when I'm not on
this podcast, yapping away with my bestie, I'm a
therapist running a group practice called Austin Teen therapy.
For over 10 years, our clinicians have specialized
in working with young people and their families.
And though we're based in Austin, we
see folks virtually all over Texas.
If you or a teen in your life
(24:57):
is in need of some support with anxiety,
depression, disordered eating, trauma school stuff, you name
it, come check us out at www.austinteentherapy.com.
you can also find us on Instagram @austinteentherapy
for helpful parenting tips, psychoeducation on those
teen years, community, and so much more.
(25:19):
Moving Parts Psychotherapy is a group therapy
practice located in South Austin, Texas.
We offer in person services for those in
Austin and virtual services for clients throughout Texas.
We see children through adults
specializing in trauma recovery.
Our clinicians are trained in trauma modalities such
as EMDR and internal family systems therapy.
(25:40):
To learn more or get connected with
a therapist today, visit www.movingpartspsychotherapy.com or email hello@movingpartspsychotherapy.com.
Will you introduce us to some
of some names that we'll be hearing
over our time together on this podcast?
(26:00):
Can you just introduce the listeners to any players
off the bat that were a piece of this?
So I'm thinking about Ann, I'm
thinking about again, the Bandits.
So kind of hit us with some of your top, your
top people that were with you walking through this process.
So I very quickly formed this support team for myself.
(26:29):
I think it was just instinct of when you're
a therapist that's going through a period of intense
grief, it's like you have to have a grief
first aid because I took like two weeks off
or something to move into my separation home.
(26:55):
Like my limbo home.
I called it.
We called it something else.
Well, yes, that, that, that we won't share on the pod.
But for this purpose we'll call it my limbo home.
Your limbo home. Yeah.
So I took two weeks off to orient
to that and like sort of recover.
(27:20):
And then I very quickly formed a support team. Yes.
Our group text, which is made up of you
and your best friend from high school, Marissa.
And my best friend since I was 19, Alyssa.
The bandits.
The Bandits is a space for everything from Bravo breaking news
(27:44):
and the Housewives or whatever Andy Cohen throws our way to
just like, I can't get out of bed today.
And so that was really essential because we really,
like, we really formed that during COVID We were
in, we were in that group chat. Yeah.
So regularly during COVID the group chat would get
(28:09):
on Zoom and watch episodes of Bravo together.
Sometimes in.
Sometimes in costume.
Sometimes in costume. Costume.
And honestly, like, I think that kind of, that was
a time where we really solidified how important it is
to find community because everyone was literally isolated.
(28:29):
Yeah.
And we were reaching for what we could, but. Yeah.
So we've got the Bandits on the support team.
My therapist, Ann Stoneson, Paramount.
I started seeing her after the birth of my second child
and so she has been a there for quite some time.
She is a very wonderful non judgmental space
(28:53):
for both the hinged and processing the trauma.
And she never makes a negative comment about
the unhinged and will encourage like, absolutely.
Get on that plane to Ireland, no questions asked.
I came into contact with my aerial
(29:15):
instructor, Kari, who ended up being really
essential for my team of healers.
She works out of a studio called
Blue Lapis Light here in town.
I wanted to do something that was a hobby that I
had that I had no skin in the game for.
Like, it literally had nothing to do
(29:37):
with my career in any way. Yeah.
And it was just about being in my body. Yeah.
And I will never be a professional aerialist.
I have weak arms.
You have a weak upper body.
I have a weak upper body.
But I built a lot of strength. Yeah.
And I got to do some cool things.
(29:58):
And what we found in my aerial work was that
when Kari allows me to yap and gossip during my
sessions, I trick myself into doing very scary things that
I don't even notice I'm doing because I'm gossiping.
So that was cool.
(30:19):
And I did build a lot of strength.
And Kari became a very dear friend as well. Yeah.
And then there's my personal trainer, Jacob, at
Lunar Health Coaching also here in Austin. Same.
Phenomenal.
I've joined you in on sessions. Phenomenal. Phenomenal.
I've never experienced a personal trainer that allows
(30:41):
the client to lead in talking about body.
So he's never mentioned anything about weight loss.
He asks me my goals first.
And I've never.
I have taken weight loss, like, out of that language.
Yeah.
So a lot of it was about building strength.
(31:03):
And then we do some martial arts.
And the biggest piece of that is that
he has always had a trauma informed approach.
So everything is with consent.
And he's become like a very safe man in my life.
And to be able to do, martial arts with a safe
(31:24):
man moved a lot of my trauma from men through my body.
So he's also one of the players.
And then we've got Tara, our psychic, Andres,
an intuitive plant healer I've done some personal
(31:46):
work with, but also a very dear friend.
He has this magical connection with nature
and plants and is such a gift.
And he's been such a gift in
my life as a friend as well.
And then I also joined a
process group therapy for therapists.
(32:07):
So you may hear about
my group therapist, Katherine Barnhill.
She's also been a player.
Do you want to speak at all about the ketamine?
Ah, yes. Thank you.
Yes.
So in my healing first aid, I knew
that I was bullshitting my therapist some
(32:30):
and I was not getting to the depths.
We spent a few too many sessions spiraling about men
that were going to pass away within a few weeks. Not.
Not literally pass away, but,
you know, fade out shortly.
That was all distraction from the inner work
(32:53):
that I really needed to be doing.
Yeah, I really wasn't getting down to it.
And I was coming into contact with, honestly,
a lot of my attachment wounds that got not
kicked up by the dissolution of my marriage, but
(33:14):
got kicked up because I had never dated before.
Yeah, Like, I had been in that relationship since.
Since I was 22.
I had never been on a dating app, and I
was not used to this new culture of dating.
And so it kicked up attachment wounds in such a
(33:34):
jarring way and opened up so much of my shit
that I had to turn to psychedelic drugs to process.
Absolutely, absolutely.
So I also, as a therapist, I do
not recommend healing modalities that I haven't experienced myself.
(33:55):
And I knew I was a little hesitant
about psychedelics for clients because I've experienced some clients
that have done psychedelic journeys that have taken them
too far into the depths with no containment yeah.
And then I'm doing the repair work for,
(34:17):
a mushroom journey that they've done with somebody who
claims to be a shaman, but it's just, like,
a white woman with crystals who hasn't actually trained
and is taking people on mushroom journey.
Sure, sure.
The audacity.
The audacity.
(34:38):
So I went to a ketamine clinic.
I knew I wanted to do my sessions with a therapist.
There's an option to do sessions on
your own or with a therapist.
I knew that, being a trauma therapist myself, we
should be accompanied when we're moving towards trauma.
(34:59):
And weirdly, my ketamine therapist,
Hannah, we, like, looked alike.
We had the same glasses.
We, like, dressed kind of the same.
And she was around the same age
as me, so that was a little.
It's trippy, jarring.
But she was wonderful. So wonderful.
We love you, Hannah. Yeah.
(35:21):
And so Hannah's just with me the whole time.
We start with a meditation, and I can bring in,
my intentions for the journey and then bring in,
sometimes I would have a poem that I
wanted to read beforehand and stuff like that.
The really cool thing about ketamine that I experienced
(35:45):
and I have seen with clients because we do
have a ketamine therapist at my practice, too, and
so I collaborate with them for my own clients.
The first session really felt like a
containment session where I was witnessing
Beyonce and Taylor Swift, like, hugging.
(36:07):
And I was like, yes, Beyonce IS mother.
And it was just whimsical at that time.
I had recently.
We had recently had that iconic episode of the
Real Housewives of Salt Lake City with reality Von Tees.
Oh.
Where there was the meme of Meredith from
(36:29):
the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.
There was this meme with Meredith's hair,
like, blowing in front of her.
But it was that with the cover of
Lana Del Rey's album Norman fucking Rockwell. And that.
That meme, like, floated by in the session. Oh, wow.
And I was just delighting in it.
(36:50):
And after the session, I was like, okay
That felt like I didn't do much work.
But what I realized after was those
are the things that genuinely bring me delight. Yeah.
And sometimes I laugh about them or I really make
fun of myself for them, but I was like, oh.
(37:13):
Like, I was showing myself the things that contain
me and ground me and that just are silly.
And then it started to get real where in the
second session I was dropped into my trauma.
But what I saw was I was
(37:35):
experiencing my trauma at a safe distance.
So I was reprocessing and seeing where some
of my attachment stuff, my attachment wounding came from
that I had never recognized before or things that
I didn't even find that I wouldn't have pinned
as traumatic in my life.
And then I was like, oh, that's
(37:57):
why it's scary to be alone.
Like, oh, that's why sometimes you struggle
with not leading with your sexuality.
Pieces like that.
And then you can go back for
re-ups after you complete the sessions.
And so sometimes I do go back for re-ups
(38:18):
because it keeps me off the antidepressants to be honest.
So the re-ups I'll do with just a
nurse and not with a therapist, but, Hannah sort
of became a part of my inner community.
So, I can feel her with me
or I prepare with my therapist
(38:38):
That I typically go to. Ann? Yeah.
Something that you said made me think about how with
a divorce, with a breakup, even with a death and
the complicated relationships that preceded it, how at the
termination of it, there's for some of us a defense
response to point the finger.
(39:00):
And it sounds like what you were doing
is taking the opportunity to really turn
the mirror and to acknowledge the
fucked up shit of your marriage.
But also looking at how, how you got
there, I think this springs to mind, like, bringing
back how our friendship comes into play. Do it. Do it.
(39:21):
After you experienced the death of your mom and we
were both dropped into a space of grief together
we started giving each other permission for the very
unhinged, healing shit we were doing and then giving each
(39:42):
other permission for going into the depths with our
healing work or for having a day where you
can't get out of bed.
And I think I needed you to accompany
me in that process to give permission for
all of those pieces to show up together. Yeah.
Like when I told my dad I needed
(40:06):
to be at the ERAS tour. Three times. Yes.
But the first time that I had to be at
the ERAS tour in Houston or Dallas because I needed
that to process my divorce, like, no questions asked.
I made it.
I was there. It was rare. I was there.
(40:26):
And then when I had to come to
terms again with that wasn't quite enough.
I'm gonna have to go to London.
I'm gonna have to go to London on my birthday.
And again.
Yeah, again, we needed
the ERAS tour for the third time.
That time got me.
I healed a lot. I healed a lot.
But you never questioned it.
(40:47):
There were times that maybe somebody could have sent
up a flag, but usually it was just turning
towards all of the messiness with acceptance.
And I think that's been such an important
piece of my own grieving and healing process.
Yeah, I'm with you in that.
(41:09):
So these parts that are kind of surprising about
or different or new, that felt really healing,
people being fully supportive, et cetera, et cetera.
What else surprised you about your healing journey?
What surprised you about yourself?
What surprised you about, like, the process?
What did you not know before you were in it?
(41:31):
I didn't know I would be able
to return to myself in this way.
Oh, I think, yeah, because, when this
bad shit happens, it feels like it just
propels you into this, whole other dimension
that feels so far away from yourself.
But yeah, yeah.
I thought as I've changed and evolved, parts of me
(41:52):
have left, but I've been able to reconnect with myself
to become more fully who I am and hold so
much more acceptance for who I am.
And that was very unexpected as well as,
how healing certain things can be that we
(42:16):
That we wouldn't consider to be catalysts
for healing, like tell me about your baths.
My baths?
Yes, about your baths.
My baths are very healing.
My grief baths.
Tell us what's a grief bath?
So I started taking these baths during the
day, at night, sometimes two in one day.
(42:37):
Water comes up as a symbol a lot to
move through emotions and be with your emotions.
And a bath also feels very contained.
And so my baths are very specific.
Where we've got the bubbles going, there's a galaxy
light that's come into the picture because you have
(42:58):
to have the right lighting, poetry or a book.
And then the music has to be right, so right.
For like, honestly a year, it's been
the John Vincent III album.
But there were like, when the tortured poets department
came out, I was taking like two to three
hour baths, listening to the full album and crying.
(43:22):
But it moved a lot.
Absolutely.
The other body of water that became
very healing was Barton Springs, which is
a very sacred space for Austin.
It's a very community driven space.
If you go often enough, which unfortunately I have,
you see the same people all the time.
(43:42):
And it's just such a special body of water and
it does a lot for your nervous system regulation.
It did a lot for me coming back into my body.
I believe you coined the term ass out.
I wasn't going to say that in this
venue, but yes, the Barton Springs excursions were
(44:03):
called ass out at Barton Springs.
But as a Therapist in the community.
Healing Waters is what we're going with.
We're going with Healing Waters. I would also.
This seems like a good place to make the disclaimer
that all the names of people from the apps, all
of the people from our dating world that we'll be
(44:25):
touching on briefly, perhaps, Perhaps all of our work with
clients, all of those names have been changed and the
stories blended to protect identities and confidentiality.
Thank you for saying that. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yes.
Feels important to note. Okay.
As we start landing this plane,
you talked about the waters.
(44:46):
Your team give me a rapid
fire, like your grieving necessities.
Like, what could you not have done
this healing journey of grief without?
Okay, rapid fire off the top.
The waters.
Candles.
David Whyte.
Taylor Swift.
Beyonce, Noah Kahan.
(45:08):
Gracie Abrams.
God, I almost forgot.
Tree time.
Mushrooms.
Mushrooms.
Friendships.
The real housewives.
Every city. Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's.
Yeah, that's my rapid fire.
Okay, I've got two more for you.
All right, name 'em.
(45:29):
What do you feel like you held
in the year of our Lord 2024.
And what are you gonna be healing in 2025?
So 2024, even though it wasn't the year of
my divorce, was one of the hardest years I've
experienced in a long time for everything, and it ended
(45:51):
with literally my body almost shutting down on me.
And so I've said, 2024 was literally the year
of surviving, and 2025 is the year of thriving.
So it's just feeling like I have a lot
(46:12):
more clarity and presence going into this next year.
And, I'm fucking ready. I love it. I love it.
Okay.
To wrap Marry Fuck Kill therapy, essentially,
Ann, baths, and the cards.
Oh, God, I hate to do it to you.
(46:32):
Honestly, I would kill the cards. Okay.
I would marry the bath and Ann because I,
can't even say the words that I would Fuck Ann
And that's not ethical.
And it's like, it doesn't roll off the tongue.
It doesn't roll off the tongue.
(46:54):
And Ann, if you hear this, I apologize
for even putting that scentence together. So sorry.
Ann. So sorry, Ann. Okay. Okay.
And Ann would never, ever, ever, ever do
that or suggest it to the client.
So I'm sorry to have brought that to the space.
(47:14):
I brought it to the.
You brought it to the space.
I'm sorry, too.
Okay, well, that is a wrap for us today. Thank you Ilyse
Thank you.
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you liked what you heard, please
subscribe and consider leaving a review.
If you have already. Thank you.
You can find us on all socials at the Healing Journey.
You can find us online at
(47:35):
www.thehealingjourney.com and you can shoot us
an email at thehealingjourney@gmail.com talk.
We are licensed therapists, but
we probably aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful information about mental
health, it is best to form your individual
(00:20):
care plan with your own mental health professional.
If we are your therapist hi!
While this podcast shares nuggets of wisdom about mental
health, we are sharing many pieces of who we
are outside of the therapy room and doing a lot
of yapping about nonsense, our own healing work, and
some about sex and dating.
If you feel listening to this podcast may
interfere with your work in therapy, please refrain
(00:42):
from doing so. While we're on the subject,
any notes from our dating lives have been changed
to protect the privacy of our partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome back to the Hilling Journey Podcast.
I'm Lindsay Camp and this is a podcast where
two therapist besties talk about their hilling journeys and
interview hillers who have helped along the way.
I'm joined today with my co-host Ilyse Kennedy.
(01:06):
She's a trauma therapist and owner of a
group practice, Moving Parts Psychotherapy, where she's a
supervisor for associates working toward licensure.
She's the author of a greatly reviewed
book, "The Tender Parts (01:16):
a Guide to
Healing Trauma Through Internal Family systems Therapy."
She's a divorced queen who is a
single mom to three amazing children.
When she's not therapizing, she can be found at
Barton Springs or at a local music venue.
She's also my whimsical bestie, my work wife, an
occasional roommate, the city mouse to my country mouse,
(01:37):
and in the words of Victoria Gunvalson, the OG
of the oc, my friend, my sister, my soulmate.
Welcome Ilyse. Thank you.
Now I want to orient us a bit
with some of your own words about yourself. Absolutely.
You penned to paper a text to a male
suitor that included the following description of yourself, "Always
(01:58):
up to some wacky spiritual shit that makes me
sob as much as it makes me laugh." Accurate. Still true.
Still co signing on that one. Yes.
Okay, so we can't talk about
healing without talking about your book. Fair.
Let's start there.
Tell me about the origin of it.
Tell us about the book.
Back in the day I was a
(02:18):
light mental health influencer on Instagram.
I picked up a following in the midst of
COVID when we were all wondering what the fuck was
happening and latching on to anything we could and
people latched on to my Instagram.
(02:39):
From there I had gotten a few agents reaching out
to me or publishing houses and this gentleman really liked
my brand and he thought I could get some pen
to paper and create a book and So I,
(02:59):
wanted to write a book that was very trauma informed
because I feel like actually a lot of books on
trauma clients read them, but it kicks up their own
trauma because the way that they're written, there's not enough
care given to the people who will be reading them
that maybe haven't done their own trauma work yet or
(03:23):
don't have any container outside of the book.
And we know that therapy is very expensive.
And so I wanted to write a book that
offered clients who maybe don't have the funds for
therapy a contained way to start moving into working
through trauma and internal family systems has been a
(03:46):
modality that's been really paramount to my work in
therapy and my work with clients.
It's this idea that we all have different parts of ourselves
and when we get to know those parts of ourselves better,
we can be with them in order to heal them and
they relax back so they don't need to be as active.
(04:07):
So like our depressive parts
or our people pleasing parts.
And so that was sort of the concept of the book.
That book also came out as my marriage
was ending and was almost like a catalyst
for the ending of my marriage.
And so there's this double sided thing
(04:31):
where I experienced one of the--
One of my biggest childhood dreams which was to write
a book and such an important piece in my career.
And it also pushed me into this next
stage of life where I was ending my marriage.
I don't think I've told you this, but I was in
Camilla's room the other day, your oldest daughter, and she was
(04:53):
showing me some outfits she had put together and there was
this like tiny wedding dress in her closet.
I was like, what is this?
And she's like, oh, that was for mom's
book party that got canceled because of weather.
And I was like, oh, it's so gorgeous.
And I was thinking a lot about that.
Yeah, that time.
And you had like, Max was your youngest was also
(05:16):
kind of in the mix of all of that.
Like you were writing the book,
you were growing a baby. And then. Yeah.
Thinking about how that was one of the
parts too of things changing for you. Yeah.
I literally found out I was pregnant with my third child
the day that I received my book contract to sign.
(05:36):
That's right.
And I was devastated about the pregnancy
because I didn't know how I was
gonna write this book alongside being pregnant.
But it actually allowed my ADHD brain to
fucking finish the manuscript in nine months.
(05:58):
I was working like up until I went to
the hospital for labor and I do not think
that I could have gotten that book finished if
I hadn't been pregnant and had, like a serious
deadline of, like, when that needed to be done.
So that's a good ADHD hack.
If you have to finish a project,
(06:22):
coincide it with a naturally occurring.
Yeah, totally. Get pregnant. Get pregnant. Totally.
So two parts to this one is that
a lot of our healing this past year,
year plus, has been oriented around grief.
The grief of your marriage,
Dreidel girl passing away, etc.
(06:45):
What do you want to share off
the top about your healing journey?
Like, where you are, what
you're grieving, what you're healing? I know.
Lay your cards down, down, down, down.
So I think there's not enough attention given to how
(07:06):
much grief is wrapped up in ending a marriage.
And I would not have known
unless I experienced it myself.
We don't give people permission to grieve
a marriage or a relationship like we
give people permission to grieve a death.
And even when we give people permission to grieve
a death, we don't give them enough permission.
(07:28):
The time or space. Yeah.
Even getting bereavement time off from
work, it's such a minuscule time.
But there's no bereavement time for divorce.
And when you're grieving a divorce, you're not
only grieving the relationship, you're grieving the vision
(07:50):
that you had for your future, you're grieving
the plans that you made.
You're grieving the parts of yourself that grew up with
this person, the parts of yourself that got into that
relationship in the first place and maybe pushed past knowing
it wasn't the right fit for you.
But for whatever reason, staying
(08:12):
in it, you're grieving.
If you have children or other people who might
be affected, you're making a huge decision that uproots
and changes the course of their lives.
And you're grieving what their expectation was
and the safety that their attachment systems
(08:33):
latched onto within that relationship.
And so I had experienced this depth of emotion
like I never experienced before, even though I've been
through plenty of traumas in my life.
But this was very new to me.
And I also had this professional Persona of,
(08:56):
like, being a very visual group practice owner.
Like, I'm the face of my practice.
I have associates that depend on me.
I had to keep the business running.
And then there's the outward, like, even
further social media presence and then the
presence of putting out this book.
(09:17):
And so there was some shame attached to having
this outward Persona and feeling like I Was like,
my marriage failed and, like, I couldn't fix it.
And I couldn't fix it enough for my kids.
And I was going to be causing them this huge
(09:39):
trauma when I'm a trauma therapist, and I know.
And I've worked with children of divorce, both children and
adults, and I know the deep impact that that has.
So to make that decision for
my own family was terrifying. Yeah.
And I could put everything in place for
(10:00):
them, like, started them in therapy
The second I knew that this was going to be coming.
Yeah.
So that they would have the support.
But it doesn't protect them because they have
to feel the feelings and the grief.
And it didn't protect me.
With all my therapeutic support, I still had
(10:20):
to feel the feelings and the grief.
And when you're experiencing a type of pain that is
completely new, you don't know what to latch onto.
So I looked towards everything your eyes can fall upon.
So my first endeavor actually connects probably back
(10:44):
to the book and to the IFS community.
I received an email about a grief retreat.
I was completely dissociated.
I signed right up.
Then a few months later, as the date
was coming up, and I forgot that I
had made this commitment and a full weekend.
A full weekend commitment.
(11:05):
I must have put down over
$500 to attend, but couldn't remember.
Totally didn't know what a grief retreat was.
No insight at all.
As the date was approaching, I received an
email with a supply list of what to
bring, amongst which was comfortable clothes.
(11:30):
If you want any snacks, like, stuff would be provided.
Bring your own drum. That's right.
And I sent you a screenshot and you said, am I
seeing this correctly, that it says, bring your own drum?
Where are you going? Yes, and I..What are you doing.
I couldn't tell you now what ended
(11:50):
up transpiring at that first endeavor into
alternative, alternate forms of healing.
A grief retreat is quite beautiful, to be honest.
This one was facilitated specifically
for internal family systems therapists.
So not only are you with a group of,
like, semi strangers, which, by the way, a lot
(12:12):
of them I did know from the IFS community.
And I'm not gonna speak to anybody's
experience besides my own, because what we
witnessed and experienced is confidential to us.
Absolutely.
In the cuddle puddle.
There was a cuddle puddle. Yes.
Now, a grief retreat is, of
(12:34):
course, appropriated from African tradition.
There's a beautiful book that I came to know
called the Wild Edge of Sorrow that promotes grief
retreats because in grieving, we often, in, like, westernized
culture, we leave people to grieve on their own.
(12:55):
And so the idea is that when we offer a space
for people to come and grieve, they're not doing it alone.
They're doing it in community.
This will sound nutty to outsiders,
but it was really, really beautiful. Yeah.
And there's not a lot of spaces like
that, nor do we often seek those out.
(13:16):
And so you bring items for an altar,
and, like, people bring photos of their loved
ones or photos and stuff that represent, like,
the loss of their marriage or whatever
they're grieving.
And we oriented to the space, kind
of shared why we were all there.
(13:36):
There were some other people grieving divorce.
So I wasn't the only one.
And as the grief ritual starts, candles are
lit, there's dark lighting, and you're literally just
in this room for, like, two straight days.
Like, well, not two continuous straight days.
(13:56):
It was like a nine to five. Okay.
Like, food was offered, and you could kind of, like, go
out, but it's best not to eat because you might vomit.
Yeah.
And people did. Yeah.
And drumming starts, and people are sharing their
grief stories, and then they're, like, wailing together.
(14:20):
They're sobbing, they're holding each
other, they're gathering in circle.
For my particular ritual, I.
There was a song that became, like, very
important to me in my grieving process.
(14:41):
Like, music is very important to me in
general in my grieving and everyday life.
But there was a song that became very
important to me in my grieving process.
And so I.
I shared that song, and I asked if we could,
like, gather in a circle so I could play it.
(15:03):
I shared the story of, like,
the dissolution of my marriage.
I cried a little, but it was all
so fresh that I was a bit dissociated,
and I couldn't fully, like, process the grief.
I still felt it stuck, even though it
felt really nice to be gathered like that.
And then the person before me had ended in
(15:25):
a little Irish jig after they processed their grief.
And I thought, you know what?
I think we need to dance this out.
Let's move it through the body.
Let's move it through the body.
And so once we played the sad song, I
asked, is it possible to get a dance party
going so that I can move this through?
(15:47):
And the.
The wonderful woman who was leading
the retreat Ann Sinko said, absolutely.
What is your divine feminine song?
And I said, not appropriate for this venue.
Now, I was the youngest amongst a group of therapists
(16:09):
that were upwards of 60 and 70 years old. Our favorite.
Yeah, mostly women. Great.
And she Insisted that we listen
to my actual divine feminine song.
So what were we hitting play on?
We were hitting play on Hot Girl Summer.
But first she bathed me in the
waters that were allegedly touched by Aphrodite.
(16:33):
Like, sprinkled these waters on me in this circle.
So the song started.
They insisted on the unedited version, which I won't
read the lyrics to, but you can imagine.
I said Hot Girl Summer by Megan
the stallion that's with two E's.
(16:54):
And the circle broke into dance.
These women had never heard this song before. No.
The men quickly removed themselves from the circle.
The first time they heard the word, the P word.
I won't, I won't say.
They wanted us to have a safe space.
Space together.
And honestly, it did a lot for me. Absolutely.
(17:16):
I'm laughing, but I also know that this was
a very serious, a very healing moment for you.
A very healing, moment. Yes.
Okay, so you play Hot Girl Summer,
you all dance and move this beautiful
divine feminine that you've connected with. Sure.
And then I caught wind that you, at the end
(17:39):
of that grief retreat, signed up for a second one.
So yes, at the end of that, some people
were asking, when can we do this again?
And she kind of joked like,
well, my next one's in Ireland. Uh huh.
And I signed right up.
You sure did. So. You sure did. Yeah.
(18:00):
A few months later, I was
off to Ireland for more healing.
That one, I think I was pretty
dissociated and it didn't fully register
that you were like in Ireland, right?
Like the countryside of Ireland. Yes.
Doing your grief work there?
(18:20):
Lots of hilling work was lots of
hilling in the countryside of Ireland.
Actually, the second grief retreat, because I had
done other healing along the way and I was
more present and back in my body, I
still had like the music aspect.
I had like made a little playlist to kind
(18:42):
of accompany me and play in the background.
And it did end with a great circle
to Noah Kahan, which was very sweet.
Oh, that one.
It really moved through something.
Yeah, I did like a guttural yell
(19:04):
to move through the rage pieces.
Yeah, yeah.
And most of the people had come from the U.S.
and so we were all there specifically
to like be with our grief.
Like we had flown across the
world to be with our grief.
And there were three of us with very parallel stories.
(19:26):
And I think that was the most profound piece for me.
Those two other people that had very similar stories
to mine and getting to hear that, like, this
person was still a good parent even Though they
knew they had to end their relationship.
(19:46):
And this person is still a really good therapist.
Yeah.
Even though they experienced a traumatic relationship, it allowed
me to take in their stories and almost
as if I was witnessing myself. Yeah.
And take that back as, oh, this is how I see them.
(20:09):
This is how I can see me. Yeah.
And those two people, we kind
of gravitated towards each other to be
accompanying in their grief ritual process.
And that was really important and profound. Yeah.
That makes me.
(20:30):
That makes me think about how interwoven our
grief and our healing journeys have been and
that there have been so many.
Yeah.
Like parallel processes there.
Can you speak a little bit about that?
So this will be kind of like a
two part one, our friendship and then two. Yeah.
(20:54):
Like the convergence of our healing
journeys and all that overlap.
I think a lot of people don't have
friends that they meet in their 30s.
I often hear people looking
for friendship in their 30s.
(21:16):
And I've felt very lucky to have
experienced close friendships throughout my life.
Like, I have people that I've
been with since elementary school.
I have people that I've been with since college.
And then I've been able to still continue to
meet people in my 30s, which is really cool.
(21:39):
And I recognize that so many people do not have that.
Yeah.
So it feels really special that I have you as
a friend that I've met in this stage of life.
It's hard, right, because in their--
In your 30s, most, a lot of people, like, it's
They're heavy on, like, raising their family or career.
(22:02):
Like, there's some really big parts that take
up a lot of time and energy. Yeah.
When I became a mom, I also went through a
big grieving process and I felt very isolated because I
was the first of my friends to have a baby.
And so I was kind of used to having
(22:25):
friendships with other people that didn't have young kids.
I was also lucky to meet some
people that did have young kids.
But I didn't feel foreign to having
friends that didn't have young kids.
And I didn't stay attached to only having
friends that had the same life as me.
(22:50):
And I think you don't give off play date mom vibes.
Not quite.
Not quite. Yeah.
And it became really important for me
as my kids were growing up.
And I think being in grad school and
having my career as a therapist, allowed
(23:10):
me to continue to meet new people.
But it became paramount for me to hold
those dates with friends, to hold on to the parts
of myself that are very easily lost through motherhood.
Motherhood is one of the most profound
experiences of change we can go through.
(23:31):
Like, biologically, our brains just change.
There are literally new attachment pathways formed in your
brain from the first two weeks of gestation.
Because of that profound change in biology and
then that profound change in lifestyle, we can
(23:52):
end up burying the parts of ourselves
that we had before we became mothers.
And making friendship a priority as self care helped me
to hold on to the parts of myself that it felt
like I lost when I became a mother, they weren't gone.
They were just pushed more
(24:13):
deeply down to protect them.
Once I became divorced, I could uncover those
parts of myself and lean back into my friendships
in a different way, which was really important then
for moving through the grief of divorce.
(24:37):
Hello, I'm Lindsey Camp, and when I'm not on
this podcast, yapping away with my bestie, I'm a
therapist running a group practice called Austin Teen therapy.
For over 10 years, our clinicians have specialized
in working with young people and their families.
And though we're based in Austin, we
see folks virtually all over Texas.
If you or a teen in your life
(24:57):
is in need of some support with anxiety,
depression, disordered eating, trauma school stuff, you name
it, come check us out at www.austinteentherapy.com.
you can also find us on Instagram @austinteentherapy
for helpful parenting tips, psychoeducation on those
teen years, community, and so much more.
(25:19):
Moving Parts Psychotherapy is a group therapy
practice located in South Austin, Texas.
We offer in person services for those in
Austin and virtual services for clients throughout Texas.
We see children through adults
specializing in trauma recovery.
Our clinicians are trained in trauma modalities such
as EMDR and internal family systems therapy.
(25:40):
To learn more or get connected with
a therapist today, visit www.movingpartspsychotherapy.com or email hello@movingpartspsychotherapy.com.
Will you introduce us to some
of some names that we'll be hearing
over our time together on this podcast?
(26:00):
Can you just introduce the listeners to any players
off the bat that were a piece of this?
So I'm thinking about Ann, I'm
thinking about again, the Bandits.
So kind of hit us with some of your top, your
top people that were with you walking through this process.
So I very quickly formed this support team for myself.
(26:29):
I think it was just instinct of when you're
a therapist that's going through a period of intense
grief, it's like you have to have a grief
first aid because I took like two weeks off
or something to move into my separation home.
(26:55):
Like my limbo home.
I called it.
We called it something else.
Well, yes, that, that, that we won't share on the pod.
But for this purpose we'll call it my limbo home.
Your limbo home. Yeah.
So I took two weeks off to orient
to that and like sort of recover.
(27:20):
And then I very quickly formed a support team. Yes.
Our group text, which is made up of you
and your best friend from high school, Marissa.
And my best friend since I was 19, Alyssa.
The bandits.
The Bandits is a space for everything from Bravo breaking news
(27:44):
and the Housewives or whatever Andy Cohen throws our way to
just like, I can't get out of bed today.
And so that was really essential because we really,
like, we really formed that during COVID We were
in, we were in that group chat. Yeah.
So regularly during COVID the group chat would get
(28:09):
on Zoom and watch episodes of Bravo together.
Sometimes in.
Sometimes in costume.
Sometimes in costume. Costume.
And honestly, like, I think that kind of, that was
a time where we really solidified how important it is
to find community because everyone was literally isolated.
(28:29):
Yeah.
And we were reaching for what we could, but. Yeah.
So we've got the Bandits on the support team.
My therapist, Ann Stoneson, Paramount.
I started seeing her after the birth of my second child
and so she has been a there for quite some time.
She is a very wonderful non judgmental space
(28:53):
for both the hinged and processing the trauma.
And she never makes a negative comment about
the unhinged and will encourage like, absolutely.
Get on that plane to Ireland, no questions asked.
I came into contact with my aerial
(29:15):
instructor, Kari, who ended up being really
essential for my team of healers.
She works out of a studio called
Blue Lapis Light here in town.
I wanted to do something that was a hobby that I
had that I had no skin in the game for.
Like, it literally had nothing to do
(29:37):
with my career in any way. Yeah.
And it was just about being in my body. Yeah.
And I will never be a professional aerialist.
I have weak arms.
You have a weak upper body.
I have a weak upper body.
But I built a lot of strength. Yeah.
And I got to do some cool things.
(29:58):
And what we found in my aerial work was that
when Kari allows me to yap and gossip during my
sessions, I trick myself into doing very scary things that
I don't even notice I'm doing because I'm gossiping.
So that was cool.
(30:19):
And I did build a lot of strength.
And Kari became a very dear friend as well. Yeah.
And then there's my personal trainer, Jacob, at
Lunar Health Coaching also here in Austin. Same.
Phenomenal.
I've joined you in on sessions. Phenomenal. Phenomenal.
I've never experienced a personal trainer that allows
(30:41):
the client to lead in talking about body.
So he's never mentioned anything about weight loss.
He asks me my goals first.
And I've never.
I have taken weight loss, like, out of that language.
Yeah.
So a lot of it was about building strength.
(31:03):
And then we do some martial arts.
And the biggest piece of that is that
he has always had a trauma informed approach.
So everything is with consent.
And he's become like a very safe man in my life.
And to be able to do, martial arts with a safe
(31:24):
man moved a lot of my trauma from men through my body.
So he's also one of the players.
And then we've got Tara, our psychic, Andres,
an intuitive plant healer I've done some personal
(31:46):
work with, but also a very dear friend.
He has this magical connection with nature
and plants and is such a gift.
And he's been such a gift in
my life as a friend as well.
And then I also joined a
process group therapy for therapists.
(32:07):
So you may hear about
my group therapist, Katherine Barnhill.
She's also been a player.
Do you want to speak at all about the ketamine?
Ah, yes. Thank you.
Yes.
So in my healing first aid, I knew
that I was bullshitting my therapist some
(32:30):
and I was not getting to the depths.
We spent a few too many sessions spiraling about men
that were going to pass away within a few weeks. Not.
Not literally pass away, but,
you know, fade out shortly.
That was all distraction from the inner work
(32:53):
that I really needed to be doing.
Yeah, I really wasn't getting down to it.
And I was coming into contact with, honestly,
a lot of my attachment wounds that got not
kicked up by the dissolution of my marriage, but
(33:14):
got kicked up because I had never dated before.
Yeah, Like, I had been in that relationship since.
Since I was 22.
I had never been on a dating app, and I
was not used to this new culture of dating.
And so it kicked up attachment wounds in such a
(33:34):
jarring way and opened up so much of my shit
that I had to turn to psychedelic drugs to process.
Absolutely, absolutely.
So I also, as a therapist, I do
not recommend healing modalities that I haven't experienced myself.
(33:55):
And I knew I was a little hesitant
about psychedelics for clients because I've experienced some clients
that have done psychedelic journeys that have taken them
too far into the depths with no containment yeah.
And then I'm doing the repair work for,
(34:17):
a mushroom journey that they've done with somebody who
claims to be a shaman, but it's just, like,
a white woman with crystals who hasn't actually trained
and is taking people on mushroom journey.
Sure, sure.
The audacity.
The audacity.
(34:38):
So I went to a ketamine clinic.
I knew I wanted to do my sessions with a therapist.
There's an option to do sessions on
your own or with a therapist.
I knew that, being a trauma therapist myself, we
should be accompanied when we're moving towards trauma.
(34:59):
And weirdly, my ketamine therapist,
Hannah, we, like, looked alike.
We had the same glasses.
We, like, dressed kind of the same.
And she was around the same age
as me, so that was a little.
It's trippy, jarring.
But she was wonderful. So wonderful.
We love you, Hannah. Yeah.
(35:21):
And so Hannah's just with me the whole time.
We start with a meditation, and I can bring in,
my intentions for the journey and then bring in,
sometimes I would have a poem that I
wanted to read beforehand and stuff like that.
The really cool thing about ketamine that I experienced
(35:45):
and I have seen with clients because we do
have a ketamine therapist at my practice, too, and
so I collaborate with them for my own clients.
The first session really felt like a
containment session where I was witnessing
Beyonce and Taylor Swift, like, hugging.
(36:07):
And I was like, yes, Beyonce IS mother.
And it was just whimsical at that time.
I had recently.
We had recently had that iconic episode of the
Real Housewives of Salt Lake City with reality Von Tees.
Oh.
Where there was the meme of Meredith from
(36:29):
the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.
There was this meme with Meredith's hair,
like, blowing in front of her.
But it was that with the cover of
Lana Del Rey's album Norman fucking Rockwell. And that.
That meme, like, floated by in the session. Oh, wow.
And I was just delighting in it.
(36:50):
And after the session, I was like, okay
That felt like I didn't do much work.
But what I realized after was those
are the things that genuinely bring me delight. Yeah.
And sometimes I laugh about them or I really make
fun of myself for them, but I was like, oh.
(37:13):
Like, I was showing myself the things that contain
me and ground me and that just are silly.
And then it started to get real where in the
second session I was dropped into my trauma.
But what I saw was I was
(37:35):
experiencing my trauma at a safe distance.
So I was reprocessing and seeing where some
of my attachment stuff, my attachment wounding came from
that I had never recognized before or things that
I didn't even find that I wouldn't have pinned
as traumatic in my life.
And then I was like, oh, that's
(37:57):
why it's scary to be alone.
Like, oh, that's why sometimes you struggle
with not leading with your sexuality.
Pieces like that.
And then you can go back for
re-ups after you complete the sessions.
And so sometimes I do go back for re-ups
(38:18):
because it keeps me off the antidepressants to be honest.
So the re-ups I'll do with just a
nurse and not with a therapist, but, Hannah sort
of became a part of my inner community.
So, I can feel her with me
or I prepare with my therapist
(38:38):
That I typically go to. Ann? Yeah.
Something that you said made me think about how with
a divorce, with a breakup, even with a death and
the complicated relationships that preceded it, how at the
termination of it, there's for some of us a defense
response to point the finger.
(39:00):
And it sounds like what you were doing
is taking the opportunity to really turn
the mirror and to acknowledge the
fucked up shit of your marriage.
But also looking at how, how you got
there, I think this springs to mind, like, bringing
back how our friendship comes into play. Do it. Do it.
(39:21):
After you experienced the death of your mom and we
were both dropped into a space of grief together
we started giving each other permission for the very
unhinged, healing shit we were doing and then giving each
(39:42):
other permission for going into the depths with our
healing work or for having a day where you
can't get out of bed.
And I think I needed you to accompany
me in that process to give permission for
all of those pieces to show up together. Yeah.
Like when I told my dad I needed
(40:06):
to be at the ERAS tour. Three times. Yes.
But the first time that I had to be at
the ERAS tour in Houston or Dallas because I needed
that to process my divorce, like, no questions asked.
I made it.
I was there. It was rare. I was there.
(40:26):
And then when I had to come to
terms again with that wasn't quite enough.
I'm gonna have to go to London.
I'm gonna have to go to London on my birthday.
And again.
Yeah, again, we needed
the ERAS tour for the third time.
That time got me.
I healed a lot. I healed a lot.
But you never questioned it.
(40:47):
There were times that maybe somebody could have sent
up a flag, but usually it was just turning
towards all of the messiness with acceptance.
And I think that's been such an important
piece of my own grieving and healing process.
Yeah, I'm with you in that.
(41:09):
So these parts that are kind of surprising about
or different or new, that felt really healing,
people being fully supportive, et cetera, et cetera.
What else surprised you about your healing journey?
What surprised you about yourself?
What surprised you about, like, the process?
What did you not know before you were in it?
(41:31):
I didn't know I would be able
to return to myself in this way.
Oh, I think, yeah, because, when this
bad shit happens, it feels like it just
propels you into this, whole other dimension
that feels so far away from yourself.
But yeah, yeah.
I thought as I've changed and evolved, parts of me
(41:52):
have left, but I've been able to reconnect with myself
to become more fully who I am and hold so
much more acceptance for who I am.
And that was very unexpected as well as,
how healing certain things can be that we
(42:16):
That we wouldn't consider to be catalysts
for healing, like tell me about your baths.
My baths?
Yes, about your baths.
My baths are very healing.
My grief baths.
Tell us what's a grief bath?
So I started taking these baths during the
day, at night, sometimes two in one day.
(42:37):
Water comes up as a symbol a lot to
move through emotions and be with your emotions.
And a bath also feels very contained.
And so my baths are very specific.
Where we've got the bubbles going, there's a galaxy
light that's come into the picture because you have
(42:58):
to have the right lighting, poetry or a book.
And then the music has to be right, so right.
For like, honestly a year, it's been
the John Vincent III album.
But there were like, when the tortured poets department
came out, I was taking like two to three
hour baths, listening to the full album and crying.
(43:22):
But it moved a lot.
Absolutely.
The other body of water that became
very healing was Barton Springs, which is
a very sacred space for Austin.
It's a very community driven space.
If you go often enough, which unfortunately I have,
you see the same people all the time.
(43:42):
And it's just such a special body of water and
it does a lot for your nervous system regulation.
It did a lot for me coming back into my body.
I believe you coined the term ass out.
I wasn't going to say that in this
venue, but yes, the Barton Springs excursions were
(44:03):
called ass out at Barton Springs.
But as a Therapist in the community.
Healing Waters is what we're going with.
We're going with Healing Waters. I would also.
This seems like a good place to make the disclaimer
that all the names of people from the apps, all
of the people from our dating world that we'll be
(44:25):
touching on briefly, perhaps, Perhaps all of our work with
clients, all of those names have been changed and the
stories blended to protect identities and confidentiality.
Thank you for saying that. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yes.
Feels important to note. Okay.
As we start landing this plane,
you talked about the waters.
(44:46):
Your team give me a rapid
fire, like your grieving necessities.
Like, what could you not have done
this healing journey of grief without?
Okay, rapid fire off the top.
The waters.
Candles.
David Whyte.
Taylor Swift.
Beyonce, Noah Kahan.
(45:08):
Gracie Abrams.
God, I almost forgot.
Tree time.
Mushrooms.
Mushrooms.
Friendships.
The real housewives.
Every city. Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's.
Yeah, that's my rapid fire.
Okay, I've got two more for you.
All right, name 'em.
(45:29):
What do you feel like you held
in the year of our Lord 2024.
And what are you gonna be healing in 2025?
So 2024, even though it wasn't the year of
my divorce, was one of the hardest years I've
experienced in a long time for everything, and it ended
(45:51):
with literally my body almost shutting down on me.
And so I've said, 2024 was literally the year
of surviving, and 2025 is the year of thriving.
So it's just feeling like I have a lot
(46:12):
more clarity and presence going into this next year.
And, I'm fucking ready. I love it. I love it.
Okay.
To wrap Marry Fuck Kill therapy, essentially,
Ann, baths, and the cards.
Oh, God, I hate to do it to you.
(46:32):
Honestly, I would kill the cards. Okay.
I would marry the bath and Ann because I,
can't even say the words that I would Fuck Ann
And that's not ethical.
And it's like, it doesn't roll off the tongue.
It doesn't roll off the tongue.
(46:54):
And Ann, if you hear this, I apologize
for even putting that scentence together. So sorry.
Ann. So sorry, Ann. Okay. Okay.
And Ann would never, ever, ever, ever do
that or suggest it to the client.
So I'm sorry to have brought that to the space.
(47:14):
I brought it to the.
You brought it to the space.
I'm sorry, too.
Okay, well, that is a wrap for us today. Thank you Ilyse
Thank you.
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you liked what you heard, please
subscribe and consider leaving a review.
If you have already. Thank you.
You can find us on all socials at the Healing Journey.
You can find us online at
(47:35):
www.thehealingjourney.com and you can shoot us
an email at thehealingjourney@gmail.com talk.
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