Hilling Through Loving in a F***ed Up World With Dean Spade

Lindsay and Ilyse speak with activist and author of "Love in a Fucked Up World," Dean Spade on the healing power of relationships and how to have better ones. Dean shares all he has learned about relationships through his own hilling journey and being in activist spaces. They touch on each of their favorite topics including app culture, grief, attachment, and sexuality. You don't want to miss out on Dean's wisdom and Lindsay's tears.

Find his book at your local independent bookstore and find him on social media at @spade.dean

You can find your hosts on socials @thehillingjourney and on Beyonce's Internet

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
We are licensed
therapists, but we probably
aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful
information about mental health,
it is best to form your individual

(00:20):
care plan with your own
mental health professional.
If we are your therapists, hi.
While this podcast shares nuggets
of wisdom about mental health,
we are sharing many pieces of
who we are outside of the therap
room and doing a lot of yapping
about nonsense, our own healing
work, and some about sex and
dating.
If you feel listening
to this podcast may interfere
with your work in therapy,

(00:41):
please refrain from doing so
while we're on the subject.
Any notes from our dating
lives have been changed
to protect the privacy of our
partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to the Hilling
Journey Podcast.
I'm Ilyse Kennedy.
And I'm Lindsay Camp.
This is the podcast where two
therapist besties talk about their
hilling journeys and interview
those on their hilling

(01:02):
journeys and hillers who have
helped along the way.
So we're back talking about dating.
Can't stop.
Can't stop.
What have you learned in this
new dating culture
territory that we've been in?
I didn't know we were having
a pop quiz this morning.
It is early.

(01:23):
What have I learned
in this new dating culture?
Oh, so we're going to talk
about it with our guests.
But this term,
I believe this author uses
the term disposable connections.
Am I using that right?
Yeah, the way that we've removed

(01:45):
ourselves from interpersonal
connection via technology and
removed the other person from it
as well has just created such a
clusterfuck of, yeah,
disposable, like, interactions
where we're just literally
throwing people away.
And it's been hard to see myself

(02:08):
not just thrown away, but also
the person enacting this, like,
painful and damaging experience.
It's been a tough reflection
on my own shit in that way.
It's funny because every time
I go on an app date,
you know, usually people are like,how has it been on hinge? Or whatever. And I'm like, let me tell you how it's been.

(02:30):
It makes me want to cry because
people are treating each other
so disposably and we have more
access than ever to connection,
and yet we've cut off ourselves
from having authentic
connections.
And in some sense, it's good
that people can advocate

(02:51):
for what they want and be able to
be honest if a connection
doesn't feel good for them.
But on the other side of the coin,
I think people are stopping
themselves from having authentic
connections because they're always
waiting for something better.
And so I've been really excited to

(03:13):
read this book that we're going
to be talking about because I
don't think there's another book
on relationships that has
addressed this new dating culture
that we're in.
And I think we actually
needed this book to not be
written by a therapist.
I agree with that.
I agree with that.

(03:33):
And yet, and yet I'm
I'm going to talk a lot
about chapter three.
It's my favorite.
Great.
If you're in therapy or
nervous about therapy,
Chapter three is therapy.
Like chapter three is
such a reflection or it calls you
to do so much reflection
and there's so much like
psychoeducation but from like a--

(03:54):
just feels like somebody just--
Yeah.
Telling you some stuff.
It doesn't feel like
it's from up here.
I'm obsessed with it.
So we're so excited to welcome
our guest, Dean Spade, author
of "Love in a Fucked Up World, How
to Build Relationships, Hook
up and Raise Hell Together."
Welcome Dean.
Can you tell us a bit about
who you are and what you do along

(04:15):
with being an author?
Yeah, it's so
It's already so much fun
to be talking to you all and hear
what you're thinking.
Yeah.
I spent my life in
social movements.
Prison and police abolition,
anti war stuff, queer
and trans liberation.
I was a lawyer.
I'm a law professor.
And yeah, most of my work has

(04:37):
just been about the question of
how does social change happen?
How do we actually make change?
What gets in the way?
What gets in the way in terms of
misunderstandings about change,
like lies we're told in our
culture about what will help and
then also what gets in the way
when we're working in groups
together.
So this new book is kind of
at that level of like

(04:57):
we live in this toxic culture.
It puts all this horrible
stuff in our minds.
We're trying to like change
the world and become people
who could change that
and who could live in that world
and be in that world.
But this stuff is like
really in the way and it
causes a lot of conflict.
And so I'm kind of asking this
question that's about what I've
needed to do to show up to
this work for the past 25 years.

(05:18):
And tools and things like that
would help in part offering this
book because the existing self
help literature doesn't put
these problems in a political
context and very much
individualizes them.
And that's been frustrating for me
even while I've heavily used that
literature and really needed it.
So I wanted to make something
that would maybe make more sense
to people who are seeing

(05:40):
the world through anti
capitalist, anti racist, feminist,
disability justice lenses.
And I felt really insecure
writing this book as a non
therapist because most of them
are written by therapists.
So it's really fun to hear you
say that Lindsay, that maybe
there's something different.
Maybe that's you.
At least you said that.
But yeah, that maybe there's
something useful about
having non therapists
sometimes write these books.
I appreciate that.
Yeah, absolutely.

(06:01):
So your first book was called
"Mutual Aid," which focused
completely on or focused
more on activism work.
Having read "Love in a Fucked Up
World," I understand how you
wrote that one next,
but can you tell us a little
bit more about that
process and how this unfolded?
Yeah, I mean I
have been reading self help

(06:21):
books since I was a kid
and I've been using tools.
I mean literally.
They're some of the first
books I found around my house.
Like classic, you know,
old self help books.
Can you name, can you
name a few titles?
I mean "Illusions" by Richard Bach.
I don't know if that's like
considered self help book.
You know what I mean?
Like these kind of like spiritualish, popular books from the,
from the 70s and 80s.
I'm trying to think
about what else.
"Who Moved my Cheese."

(06:42):
Yeah, like "Way
of the Peaceful Warrior."
Like oh, oh my God.
The classic book that bell
hooks refers to so often,
that's... "Road Less Traveled."
That was like one of my first like,
you know, maybe adolescent books.
And I just continue to use those
kinds of tools but often
in secret because honestly like

(07:02):
they're embarrassing and cheesy.
They're, they're like really
at odds with my political
values in many ways.
They say like the problem is
in you and if you do these
things right you'll be...
And often they have in not all of
them, but a lot of the self help
literature and genre has a lot of
like you'll be rich and skinny and
married in 30 days, you know, kind
of vibes which are completely the
reverse of like let's transform
this society so that nobody is

(07:22):
like left in the gutter and put in
a cage.
Very different.
And, and, and that take your
personal suffering from living
in this incredibly isolating,
brutal, throwaway society
defined by war and prisons
and, and say like this is your
problem to solve as an
individual, with your
therapist or with this book.
And I feel, you know, that's not

(07:43):
what I believe in and yet really
needed and gained a lot from the
insights of like oh, there's a
pattern to this way of thinking
and feeling.
A lot of people feel this way.
This is some of the illusions
that, you know, illusory thoughts
that it might lift up in you.
This is what this fear might
be like, like that stuff,
you know, this is what
happens between people.
A lot of that stuff
is really useful.
And so I, you know, reading
those literatures and then
become politicized, right?

(08:04):
Like as a teenager I became
politicized about feminism and
I, you know, I had as a kid had
some anti racist politicization
from just my own experiences of
living in the rural south and
my mom, you know, telling me
what was right and wrong about
the racism happening in our
community.
And then I, you know, as my life
became entirely about political

(08:25):
activism, as I came into young
adulthood, I continued to just
like try to find those kinds of
things because of my own
suffering, just like, because I
was like, you know, traumatized
and having, experiencing the
things in the society that are
common to many and some that are
specific to my journey or
whatever.
But you know, I just kept seeing
how different kinds of patterns

(08:47):
of wounding showed up and how
I could connect with others.
You know, shutting off the grief
of my early losses
meant that I was, had a harder
time in relationships, all
of these kinds of things.
And yeah, and so then I
became a poverty lawyer
and was part of groups that
operated as collectives.
You know, like a lot of like kind
of like unpaid work at night with

(09:08):
in groups, trying to push back
against all kinds of systems and
trying to support people who are
facing some of the harms in those
systems.
And I saw all the conflict
in those groups, right.
Often that would come up around
basically these same sets
of feelings, like feeling left
out, needing to be seen
in certain ways, not knowing that
you're repeating a pattern.
So I'm simultaneously there in
my twenties having my own classic

(09:30):
repeated dating relationships,
always ending up in the same
bad feeling, the same dynamic
that many people experience.
And I'm also in groups
seeing the same dynamics
happen over and over again.
So you know, that was just like
again using all the tools and
having all those conversations
with people and increasingly as
I aged, mentoring other people,
going through those same
stressors.
A lot of stuff where it's like

(09:51):
someone's so upset and kind
of can't see their part in it.
You know, they're
in a reactivity pattern.
Like other people are bad or
they're so upset and only see
their part in it and are like I'm
so bad and terrible and don't see.
Oh no, those are some
of the conditions here,
you know, you could give feedback
or things like that.
And around 2015 I started
actually writing this book.
So it's been about 10 years where
I just was like, I need to

(10:12):
translate some of what's been
useful from these different
healing modalities I've used in
these different literatures into
something that people in my
communities and I also be like
listening to like podcasts and
being so irritated about how
depoliticized the discussions of
healing tools were.
I'd be like, God, they're
really onto something.
Except, you know, they're
talking about romantic
relationships without mentioning
patriarchy, come on,
you know, or whatever,

(10:33):
or sex negativity or the other
conditions that are shaping
people's experiences.
So I started writing this
book and then just like really
was struggling with it.
And then in the meantime
I wrote Mutual Aid.
So I was like.
And I'd also written like a prior
book that was about kind
of like called "Normal Life," like
the sort of higher level questions
about social movements.
But yeah, when I wrote Mutual
Aid, I was already in the middle

(10:54):
of writing this book that became
Love in a Fucked Up World.
And at the beat.
When I first started writing "Love
in a Fucked Up World," it was
actually a much longer self help
book that wasn't just about
sex, dating and relationships.
It was also about like
collaborations, procrastination,
takedowns in social media,
overwork, work avoidance.
Like the range of things that
happen when we work together
became too long and I
split it into two books.
But when I wrote Mutual Aid,

(11:14):
which was kind of just
for the moment, people were like,
will you write this?
Because it was, you know, 2020,
people were suddenly doing
all this mutual aid stuff.
And I'd written some
prior essays about it.
I put a lot of stuff from that
second part of this book
into the back of Mutual Aid.
So the second half, Mutual Aid
people have said, feels like
a self help book to them because
it's about these questions,
how do we create good.

(11:35):
What is burnout like so that some
of that stuff is in there.
Although I'm still going to
come out with a sequel to this
book called Getting Shit Done
in a Fucked Up World that's
really more in depth about
kind of what happens when we
work in groups together and
with ourselves.
Just like people's the stuck,
the common stuck places.
The final thing I'll say
about this is that I put out Love
in a Fucked Up World first
in part because it's about

(11:56):
sex and dating, romance.
I'm hoping more people want to want
to read it you know, trying
to get people in because a lot
of people in our culture don't
want to do the internal work.
They're much, especially
in our movements, they're
like, oh my God, we've got
to get these meals out.
We got to plan these actions.
And it can be hard to motivate
people because they're
like, there's so much urgency.
How could I stop
and look at myself?
So I wanted to put out
the sexy one first.

(12:16):
But also because, to be
totally honest, this is the area
where people act worst.
This is the like, like the worst
things we do to each other
stem often from something
related to sex or romance.
It's the person most likely to hurt
you in our society is someone
you're in that kind of connection
with or who wants that with you or
you used to be in that connection
with.
It's a pretty urgent of
dysfunction where I feel like

(12:37):
there's a lot of low hanging
fruit for people to realize
these are shared cultural
scripts and try to support
ourselves and one another.
To look at like kind
of the patterning and be like, oh,
hey, okay, this isn't just me.
I'm not bad for having
this in my head, but.
But could I.
Does it really align
with what I believe in?
And could I make any room
to not go through this

(12:58):
pattern of reactivity?
So that's part of also why
I put this piece out first.
Yeah, I know you mentioned
that you have some insecurities
putting out a relationship book
and not being a therapist.
I think the reason that we
really took to this book is
because within our own mental
health work, we really

(13:19):
consider all of the political
context and that's been really
important to us.
And I think we've seen how that
aspect is not at all talked
about in many of these
relationship books that are out.
And I really appreciated too that

(13:39):
this book is really fitting
for various relationship stages
and styles of relationships.
What did you feel was
most important to get
across in the book?
That's such a good question.
I mean, I think, I think one
of the main takeaways of
the book that's kind of throughout
is emotional awareness.

(14:00):
Like, just like, can I notice when
I'm having a strong feeling
that does so much work instead
of just like, I'm so mad at Ilyse.
Ilyse is terrible.
Oh, I'm having a strong reaction
to something that happened
in the meeting with Ilyse or
in my relationship with Ilyse.
Like, I'm in a state.
It's not bad to be in the state.
I'm okay, it's okay.
I'M okay to do this.
These are like, you know,

(14:20):
a loving awareness or
at least accepting awareness
that I'm in a strong state.
Now that I'm in a strong state.
What would help, you know, a lot
of the book is just that, like,
I'm like, you know, what can I
do to either get support from
others to reflect myself so that
the next actions I take are more
aligned with something I won't
regret or something that I
believe in.
Jealousy, anger, fear,

(14:43):
deep avoidance, wanting
to run away from others, any
of these strong states.
You know, like, I'm telling a deep
story in my mind at night.
I'm thinking all about what
happened in that meeting or what
happened on that date or whatever.
Like.
Like, can I know this so that.
I think that's the kind of
fundamentals, like, what kind
of freedom is available to us
when we're aware, like, basic,
basically, like, what's
actually happening right now?
What am I responding to?

(15:04):
Instead of telling a story about
how you're so bad or I'm so bad.
And the next piece of it that I
definitely wanted
to get out was just the piece
around the romance myth.
It's so Feminism 101 in some ways,
and yet people
haven't heard that critique.
I find, like, just the idea that
there's a big cultural story that
this is the most important
relationship you could have, and
that kind of, like, it's okay to
act completely bananas to people

(15:25):
in this kind of relationship
because it's so important and
your feelings are so strong, and
they should have.
They should have known, and if
they don't read your mind, there's
something wrong with them.
And if something goes
bad with this, it's
it's terrible, and we'll
die lonely, and you should
give up everything else
for this relationship.
All those
Those many pieces of the romance
myth, like, it's so relieving
to just be like, oh, this is just
a big mythology, like, fat phobia.

(15:46):
Or, like, I mean, any of the things
that I think more people I know
notice are, like, I
should critique that, or
critique the idea that
buying a bunch of stuff
will make me happy.
But the romance myth,
it's so intimate.
We think it's us.
We think, this is what I want
or this is how I feel, or
someone else is bad if they don't.
Or, like, we really think it's
authentic and natural when it's

(16:07):
happening instead of that.
It's a really profound form of
conditioning, and we get to
ask ourselves how we want to
relate to it, especially if
it's pushing us to do behavior
that doesn't align with our
values.
So I'm hoping I really wrote
this book to be skimmable.
I hope people would, like,
take screenshots of, like,
a bulleted list or a chart
and send it to their friend.
Like, people don't like

(16:28):
to read right now.
That's fine.
Like, I wanted it to be
something that people could.
That would maybe just get
into the communities I'm in.
A little bit of new common
sense that could be shared to,
like, help each other out.
When we're kind of going off the
rails with this stuff, Lindsay, it
makes me think a lot how we've
talked so much about how we've

(16:50):
centered our friendship outside of
romantic relationships and how
within the friendship, and
especially starting this new
podcast venture, we've had to work
through a lot of shit.
And in the working through of
the shit, how we've never
actually gotten in a fight, but

(17:12):
we notice when we have feelings
arising and we've been able to
name them and kind of talk
through it and really own,
like, what belongs to me and
what belongs to you.
So I'm just thinking about that.
Sorry I made you cry, but not sorry too. Because we're therapists and it's okay to cry.

(17:33):
I'm never not thinking
about our friendship
and how great it is.
Full on crying over here.
Oh, I was thinking about,
like, the thing about this.
Yeah, yeah, please.
I just.
I just.
One of the things I really want,
and I think I mentioned this

(17:53):
in the book, is like,
for people to treat their lovers
more like their friends.
Like, you know, want the best
for you, not threatened when you
make a new friend or have a new
interest, like, really thriving.
And then for people to treat
their friends like their lovers,
which you all just demonstrated,
devotion, loyalty,
specialness, friend diversity,
friendiversary celebration.

(18:13):
Like, Like.
Like the way we.
Like, you're my lover.
Like, in this sense of,
like, that kind of care.
Like, if we could mix those two up,
there's so much beauty in both.
But the segregation of them leads
to us not getting everything we
need in terms of support or...
Yeah, I think I have.
I'm going to really go off.
I'm gonna go off the script.

(18:34):
I think I have.
And this is some of
the conditioning.
And even though I am queer, I
have some, like, feelings around
perception of intimate.
My intimate female relationships
because I feel like
there's such an assumption of,
like, oh, maybe they're secretly
in love or whatever.
And like, no, I'm outwardly
in love with My best friends.

(18:56):
But I think that there's something
there that comes up for me around
just perception and assumption
of intimacy because we don't see,
see friendship intimacy so richly.
Like it's only allowed for
people in relationship.
And I remember that, that Instagram
post that went around a little

(19:16):
while back that was like kiss
your friends on the lips, like
show your friends you love them.
And I just believe in that so much.
And, and there is that piece
that, that pops up for me.
And I think this is actually like
extreme for men.
I mean I think it's one
of the reasons that yes, men are
so terrible in our culture
is because they're deprived.
One of the reasons,

(19:36):
yeah, touch, connection.
You know, there's, yes, a lot
of other cultures, men walk
holding hands with their friends,
have their arm around them,
like there's a lot more affection.
And I think men are extremely
isolated in the kind of typical
US cultural gender norms.
And like, like intimacy
is so terrifying.

(19:56):
The idea that it would mean that
you were gay or that you were
having some kind of sexual
attraction, that there's this kind
of like extreme isolation.
And that I think really leads
to a lot of the, the dysfunction
and violence that we see from men.
And the idea the only place you
can get touch or intimacy is
from female partner and then
the like, you know, violent

(20:18):
taking of that whenever they
want or the, the like just the
dysfunction around wanting it,
knowing that they like
vulnerability around it.
Feel like I think it's true also.
I think it's true for all people.
And just as you're saying
there's a kind of like
friendship is really back
burnered in our society.
It's like you're supposed to be
in this blood family, maybe
have some friends in
adolescence and then graduate
to your new marital family and

(20:41):
be oriented towards those
relationships.
And friendship is the thing that
doesn't matter, which is I
think why it's a little bit
like the space of potential
liberation where we act with
more consent, but it is really
devalued and people ditch their
friends a lot and don't know
how to value it.
So to me, yeah, I actually
haven't heard someone
express the, the fear you're
describing in a while.

(21:01):
And I think it's really
important like the, the fear that
being truly loving
and intimate will be perceived
as, as sexual or romantic.
And I don't know the fear, I don't
know that it's the fear of that.
More like, I don't know how
to word it, but the A.
I just hate misconceptions

(21:22):
and assumptions.
Like, it's rude, but we all do it.
But I think that what I really
don't like about it is
that it's making an extrapolation
and it's taking
something away from what it is.
And that I think
it's the romance myth, right?
And it's that centering of romantic
partners that's just irritating
and frustrating to be in.

(21:46):
I've been spending a lot of time
these past few days because I'm
in Los Angeles, and so I'm.
I've been with a lot
of my friends that I've known
since my early 20s.
And seeing the friends who have
not been in partnerships or
who are in partnerships much
later, it's been really sweet

(22:08):
to see how they've de centered
romance and recentered
friendship.
And when we have conversations
about romance, the way that
my friends who have not been
in partnerships or who
have later partnerships talk
about it is so different.

(22:30):
And a lot of them have come to this
place, like in their 30s, 40s,
50s, where they've been able to
feel fulfilled by the friendships
almost in a romantic way.
And so I've been thinking
about this a lot, and I love
that our conversation has kind

(22:52):
of shifted towards centering
friendships in romance.
I think because of the depth of
my friendships, I feel so
fulfilled that a partner, a
potential partner, would have
to really light something up
in order to, like, have

(23:14):
somebody in my life in a more
serious way.
Because sometimes I think
about it as like, well, I don't
really want to hang out with
that person because I'd rather
hang out with my friends.
And so I don't know.
That's just something
I've been stewing on.
I mean, think being like

(23:35):
sex positive, we can
also be like, you can.
People can get all these
different needs met people.
And there's no need to make
a sexual partner meet all of your
needs or look for one who will.
I mean, I just.
Yeah, I think that the idea
that should all go together,
you know, instead of being
like, oh, I love having
sleepovers with this best
friend, I like, you know,
talking about these parts of

(23:55):
my life with this friend.
I like collaborating on these kinds
of parts of this person.
I like having sex with this person.
Like, and just being
like, what are.
What's.
Like the sense that you can make
choices about that instead of
that, like, as soon as you have
sex with someone, you're on this
escalator or you're not and like,
and what you guys were talking
about in the opening to the kind
of shopping take on like apps or
the feeling.
It's like there's a fake feeling.

(24:17):
There's a million jillion people
out there and I'm just gonna
like, shop for the one I like
and like, shop or like, level
up whenever I, you know.
Like, there's a kind of like, very
capitalist, market based dating
culture that still is oriented to
the notion of like, finding the
best one and then like, investing
with them in, like, private
property.
I mean, it's so great.
People who don't believe

(24:37):
in parts of that, it's still
just like an inherent yeah..
And it feels really bad for
actually figuring out, like, oh,
like, who's in front of me right
now and what, what seems good for
us to do together, what would be.
And also, like, it's
going to change.
Like, first we did this together
and then we found out we liked
doing this together or we no
longer wanted to do this together.
And like, being actually open

(24:58):
to, like, real consent around
that instead of like, I just
need to pressure this person to
do this stuff with me because I
want to, like them to fit into
this box, you know, shifting my
mind.
Maybe I don't have to go through
with this soft breakup.
So shifting gears a little bit

(25:19):
because I want to make sure
that we talk about this piece.
I was so excited and nerded
out when you mentioned Francis
Weller's work in the book.
And a big part of our podcast
is talking about grief.
We've both, both been through
divorces and Lindsay lost her

(25:39):
mom, and so we talk a lot
about grief and we both know
firsthand how important it is
to be doing consistent grief
work.
But I have not seen a relationship
book talk about the importance
of doing grief work and how that's

(26:01):
really healing for us to be
in relationship with each other.
So can you talk to us a bit
more about why you think
it's so important to be
well versed in grief?
Yeah, it's also just really
interesting how your, what your
life delivers to you because this
is something people are asking
a lot about, a lot from this book.
And I would say one of the main

(26:22):
things I went to therapy
for early in life was
because I couldn't feel my grief.
And it's been my biggest struggle.
My mom died when I was 14.
I went to foster care, and I just
like that kind
of having to just survive.
I went to high school, like
the next week after she died.
You know what I mean?
Like, for the first time, you know,
all that kind of stuff, like, just
I really shut down grief
and I saw the, the implications

(26:44):
of that in my life.
And so it's really wild to me,
like how people are looking
to me to learn about grief
when I, you know, I saw myself
as someone who couldn't do.
But then I've had a lot of beloveds
have major losses in recent years
and been like, oh, I,
I'm okay with being around this.
And so many of their friends
and loved ones aren't.
And like how, you know, grief

(27:05):
is just so stigmatized
and shut down in our culture.
I talk in the book about how like
the dsm, like if you are, if
you're still grieving after two
weeks after a major loss, the
Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual, which is like the, the,
you all know this, but the book
for that sort of lays out mental
health diagnoses, says that
you're then in depression.

(27:25):
Like it pathologizes grief
if you're more than two weeks
after losing your lover,
your child, your parent.
Like, you know, and Francis
Weller says we live in a culture
of amnesia and anesthesia.
Like you're supposed to break
this, you know, you're supposed to
numb out and not feel this.
And to me, we have to have an anti
grief culture to live in

(27:47):
colonialism and white supremacy
and ecocide because the agony of
seeing people living outside on
the street of, you know, knowing
the conditions under which this
land has been settled and what
has been, you know, done and is
being done to indigenous people,
of going to work every day and
experiencing the kind of
suppression or school that is
like the domination that is the

(28:08):
norm, putting up with the like
constant patriarchal rape
culture, like having to shut down
our sensations about our bodies
because you're not allowed to be
sick or disabled.
Like we, we have a culture that.
And also because so many people
in the United States, you know,
the vast majority came here
through some kind of like
running from or being forced to

(28:29):
migrate here, right through,
through slavery or through
leaving wars or ecological
crisis where they're from.
So like this is a culture that
if we actually felt that grief,
we would absolutely revolt.
You know what I mean?
So having us be kind of numbed out,
having us be numbing all day when
we're going through the
humiliations of work in school and

(28:49):
that kind of domination and then
numbing when we aren't at work, at
school with a bunch of consumption
and being told to be happy through
going to Disneyland or buying the
right whatever or getting the
right body or you know, house,
like all of this is about keeping
us in our places.
And the other side, which you all
know well, is if I numb out my
grief or if I can't feel anger,
all these kind of, like,

(29:09):
stigmatized emotions, then I
can't feel the other side of the
emotional range.
Right.
Like, very little, like, authentic
curiosity, pleasure, connection.
Like, that's what I found.
That was like, kind of what
drove me into a lot of my.
My early going to therapy was I
was like, oh, I am just shut down
in general because I can't stand.
I've been shutting down this

(29:30):
terrible loss and all of its
implications for so long that I
also was, like, losing my
memory because I didn't want
to think about the past.
I mean, all of these pieces
and trying to be like,
I want to be alive.
And I think that this is so
important right now because people
are in enormous grief about, like,
witnessing genocide, witnessing
ecocide, being terrified

(29:51):
about living under fascism.
And also kind of there's a.
There's a cultural grief happening,
I think, for many people
of being like, oh,
no one's coming to save us.
There's no elite,
like, to appeal to.
It's like, not like, if I
just like, write the right.
Sign the right petition or
write to my senator, this
is going to work out.
Like, the whole thing
is stacked against us.

(30:12):
It's actually up to us.
And being able to grieve the
fantasy that the United
States could be, like, fixed
or that it could be like the
US Law or Constitution would
somehow protect us from this
horror.
Being able to actually grieve that.
And I think it's actually grief
of a loss, of a kind of
parenting people think the
state will provide is
essential to be able to get to
the next step, which is, oh,

(30:33):
wow, it's on us.
How do I take immediate action with
others in my community to care
for each other and fight back?
And if you don't grieve that, if
you're just like, I think a lot of
people are right now in the phase
of I'm so overwhelmed, which,
again, no judgment on this, but
I'm so overwhelmed I'm going to
numb out with.
With the amazing media
that's available and.
And the next phase

(30:53):
would be to,
and I think we actually need
group grief ritual around this.
Like.
Like, humans are animals.
We.
We evolved in groups trying
to do that alone.
People end up frozen
and then, like, back onto,
like, social media or TV or
video game or whatever.
So I feel like the.
The key is, like,
can we create a space?
Can we create many kinds of spaces
where it's not taboo to feel these

(31:15):
things, where we see others
feeling Them, which can really be
an invitation in, and then let
ourselves really face, like, the
loss of the fantasy that this is
going to be worked out by elites
and accept that this is on us, and
then ask ourselves, like, what is
my next ethical step that really
affirms my purpose as a human who
cares for others and wants to
reduce suffering instead of just,

(31:37):
oh, my God, we're screwed.
I'm stuck.
They're not coming to save us.
I can't imagine anything else.
I'm going to go dark, you know?
Yeah.
I've done two grief retreats
over the past few years,
and I think as therapists.
Well, Lindsay, you don't

(31:57):
put yourself in these
spaces as much as I do.
But as therapists, we get a lot
of opportunity to put
ourselves in these spaces
where we can really feel.
And I noticed that, well, it's
not at all common for, you know,

(32:19):
the average person to go to
a grief retreat or to experience
these, like, group healing spaces.
And I think about that
as, like, another type of love
that I've been able to touch into
in grief rituals.

(32:40):
Everybody is holding
the grief with you.
And we're not just grieving over
this one person that we lost
or this thing that we lost.
It's...
Francis Weller talks about
all the different types of grief,
and one of them is even,
like, grief for the world.
And I wish that more people got

(33:04):
to experience that because I think
it also brings us into a new depth
of connection with people.
And I think about that
as a different type
of relationship, too.
Can I tell you about
a grief ritual I went to?
It's coming to mind.
Well, I want to say I think people.
I'm going to tell you one that's
very specific, but I want to
encourage people to just like,

(33:25):
start a group with their friends
or people at work to just be like,
let's have a,
let's talk about climate grief or
heartbreak we're having
about US Military action
around the world or whatever.
Anything, you know, or.
Or just a group of people
who've lost a parent or
a child or, you know, just
a grief group of any kind.
I just think all of this amazing
for us, but with any kind

(33:45):
of process, maybe just go
around a circle, whatever, but.
But I went to this really
incredible ritual.
I was
I was at a gathering of Anti
Zionist Jews who all work
to, you know, stop the genocide
of Palestinians.
And this Jewish ritual leader,
Alana June, led us in the...
So there's a traditional thing Jews

(34:05):
do when we hear about a death.
We rip our clothes.
It's a
It's called kriya, and it's
a traditional response to,
It's part of the mourning
or grief process.
You rip the garment you're wearing.
And so she's taken that idea of.
Of tearing cloth.
And so we were in a room of, like,
hundreds of people, and she handed
out to everybody pieces of cloth
that were pretty easy to tear.
Like, you know, things.
She'd gotten, fabrics you got

(34:26):
in the thrift stores that were
pretty worn through, and everyone
tore their cloth into strips.
I mean, she gave this whole
beautiful speech that I can't do.
But
And
And then it was
The concept of the ritual was that
when you experience grief, things
will never be the same again.
And
And that's what's so hard.
And so you tear
the cloth, and then you.

(34:47):
And then she invited us to tie our
own piece of cloth into, like,
a longer string so it's tied back
together, but it's different.
And then to tie your string,
that's all your little
scraps tied together
to the people next to you.
So we had one long snake of
cloth throughout the whole
room, and then we all held it
up over our heads, and then
everyone took breaks from
holding it and let other
people hold it.
So it's like we're holding

(35:08):
the grief, and you don't have
to always be holding it.
It was.
And it was hundreds of people
who are in agony about
this genocide that is, you know,
happening supposedly in our
names that we don't endorse
and that we're doing.
We can to try to stop, and that,
you know, is not stopping.
Right.
And just, like, the agony of

(35:28):
this constant onslaught of.
Of news about that and people
losing people they love.
And so it was just a really
profound thing to have a physical.
I think it is really
I mean, also, it's beautiful
to be in the same room.
I think we can also do
these things online, 100%.
But it was beautiful to be in the
same room, to feel the level of
shared awareness of this grief

(35:48):
and then to do something physical
that was also tied to our
traditions, although I'm sure
there were also people in the
room who weren't Jewish who also
engaged with it.
And I think that's great.
But, yeah, it was really,
I just wanted to share
it because it was,
I wish you all could see
the visual in my mind of all
of us holding up this tattered
rags all tied together.
But it's so long at this point,
and we're all connected.
It was very beautiful.

(36:09):
Oh, it's so beautiful.
It's so beautiful.
I lost it when you said that.
Yeah, when you got tired,
other people would hold it.
It's really beautiful.
I'm just like sobbing
all over this one.
Dean, I'm really loving
our conversation with you.
Me too.
I'm really loving this.
I wish we were in the same
room for it too.

(36:30):
Me too.
Me too.
Should we shift gears
towards attachment?
No one asks me about that
chapter because I'm not talking
to that many therapists.
So like, okay, great delivering to
towards some of the other parts.
Like, I'd love to
hear what, what you.
What that's been like for you.
So it's interesting because

(36:51):
I am often sharing with clients
and allowing them to make
their own decisions on what's
most fitting for them when
it comes to attachment.
But I think a lot of attachment
research and what
pop psychology has presented to us

(37:14):
is that we have these like
fixed attachment styles.
And the way that it was first
presented when people started
talking a lot more about
attachment was actually kind
of shaming when we know that
our attachment systems are
formed from the important
relationships in our life and
are not our own fault.

(37:37):
And so I've really shifted towards
talking to people
about how we have pools
of attachment and attachment is,
attachment can flow differently
depending on who we're
coming into contact with.
Lindsay always laughs that
one time I had said I'm falling

(37:57):
into a pool of avoidance.
Excuse me, but in speaking about
attachment research
in the book, you also talk
about the importance of holding
a lot of nuance with it.
And I think that's something
that was also helpful hearing

(38:17):
from, from somebody who's not a
therapist because you have like
an outside of an outside
perspective of something that
therapists have like held as so
sacred and these fixed thoughts
about it.
What have you noticed about
the concept of attachment and how

(38:38):
did you adapt it
in the book to touch on attachment
patterns but simplify and expand
the view of it for readers?
Yeah, I mean, I think I, I love
that you said this because.
Yeah, I think that there's a
way that like a lot of self
help stuff has been kind of
like made into memes and
people have a very like kind
of shallow awareness of some

(38:59):
of the concepts.
And that's great because
it's better than nothing.
And I want people to be.
I love any self reflection
tool I want people to use.
Everyone appeals to them.
Personality types, astrology,
like anything that lets us have
a conversation with each other
about what I'm feeling like
inside that you might not know
and how it might be showing up
and How I'm impacting you,
like, love it.
You know, I've had a lot of friends
who like, didn't want to go
to therapy but were willing

(39:19):
to talk to me about the Enneagram.
And I was like, great, let's
use that to talk about our
relationship, like anything.
Like, let's talk about how we,
what it feels like to be us.
But the downside of things that
have a type especially is that
thing where it's like we can get
really like oriented towards that
label and not be willing to see

(39:40):
the range of experiences we're
having.
And a lot of us, I mean, I think
something I see really commonly
in general in my communities is
people find out some language
sometimes in therapy or from
reading something about a way
that they react.
And instead of being like,
I have a pattern of reaction
there, they're like, so
therefore everyone else needs
to do this or that, right?

(40:01):
The point of this stuff
is self awareness.
Not to control others and to get
other people to never do the thing
that triggers you or brings
up your attachment, but instead to
be self responsible.
Oh, I'm, I'm having this, this
big reaction or, or small reaction
because of something
that's in my past or in my, my way
of surviving.

(40:23):
And I don't want to take it out
on you and I don't want to use it
to control you or say you
have to be a certain way.
And I think that.
So that's one like, big
difference that I'm trying to
articulate in the book is like
finding out about your triggers
or finding out about your
attachment style or your
reactive patterns is not a set
of instructions for others.
Others can be sensitive to it.
Like, you live with me and you

(40:44):
know that I have this
thing that kind of comes up.
And so it might mean that you
learn to speak more gently to
me about that or that you
think about bringing it up,
you know, after I've had my
meal or after, you know,
whatever.
We can learn to like, care for
others sensitivities, but we can't
demand that others avoid our
sensitivities or care for them.
So that's one thing.
And then the other thing
about this, the attachment

(41:06):
literature kind of has some
romance myth problems like
the good things about.
It's a really great way to describe
some of what really these patterns
that really do happen between us
and the kinds of specific fear,
the fear of abandonment and fear
of engulfment that can produce a
panic that can really make us act
differently than our values and
make us have A whole justification
inside.

(41:26):
And so just even getting to find
out about those fears and be
like, oh, I've got a whole
narrative that goes with it.
I'm actually feeling a fear
of abandonment, but I'm
narrating all the ways that you're
inconsistent or whatever.
You know, I see this stuff in
myself and my friends a lot when
we talk about our relationships.
And it can really help each other
to be like, what's the fear there?
Instead of talking
about how the other person's
bad or whatever.
But the downside is the

(41:48):
attachment literature actually
embraces the idea often that the
sexual or romantic relationship
is the most important one and
that we live in a community of
two and that this is where all
of this happens.
So I wanted to say actually
the attachment reactions happen
in all of our relationships.
That's great to be like,
oh, it's happening to me
in the activist group.
It's happening to me
with my friend,
it's happening with my boss.

(42:10):
And also that the answer isn't
to try to like make this
one relationship secure.
I don't actually don't
know that I even believe.
I've been asking myself whether
I believe in secure attachment.
Like, I can see how some of my
relationships become more secure
places for me, but I still may

(42:30):
have that engulfment or
abandonment reaction at any time.
Like, I can be in a super long
relationship where there's a lot
of things that have made
me feel seen and heard
and still go into that space.
And that's not bad.
And so I worry that people, and I
really don't like when people
think some people have secure
attachment and others don't.
Find me someone who has all secure
attachment in this society.

(42:51):
I would.
I'm like, that person is probably
numbing, you know, if they
never have these reactions come
up and usually it turns out
they're actually like avoidant.
A lot of people like, who
are avoidant are having
avoidant reactions a lot.
I think none of us
are one or the other.
You know, we all have them all,
but a lot of people who've
suppressed, like I've been
in relationships with people
who've never felt jealousy.
And it's actually just a lack

(43:12):
of vulnerability sometimes.
You know, I mean, you know, no
judgment on that experience.
I almost never feel anger.
You know, we all have.
Have zones of, of no go, you
know, that we're maybe doing
healing towards opening.
But.
But I think a lot of times the, the
kind of strict type may be not
noticing where those things are

(43:32):
occurring or not letting ourselves
feel Them to the level of
consciousness or having ways we
suppress them.
So yeah, I think that like
the type, like I love that
two sided chart I included
in the book from that.
I got that from David Rico's
book, "How to be an Adult."
Like that,
I love that book, "How
to be an Adult."
It's really short and simple.
It's not his book "How to be
an Adult in Relationships."
It's the prior one

(43:53):
that's really short.
That chart is so helpful.
You're like, oh God,
yes, I've landed there.
But it may be that not every
phrase on the chart rings.
You know, it may be that like
you're like, oh, I
really do the abandonment
thing with my lover.
But in my family I am like
full fear of engulfment or
at work or in this type of.
Or when I'm doing my artwork
or whatever and just being able
to like not be stuck.

(44:14):
Like even people will be
like, I'm a, I'm a caregiver.
That's a classic one.
Everyone thinks they're a
caregiver and it's like, well,
we're all getting care
somewhere, so we all also, yes,
notice your caregiving
tendency, but also notice where
you're not noticing care.
Like, you know what I mean?
There can be just a kind of like
attachment to like different forms
of martyrdom or like ways that
we're not allowing ourselves

(44:35):
to notice our impacts on others.
And in our culture it's really
like there's an idea that
you'll be safe and accepted
if you're the victim.
It's very toxic and it
disempowers us very badly.
I imagine it comes up a lot for
therapists when you see someone
who is really stuck in that how
to help them feel more power
and also notice their impact more.

(44:55):
I can imagine that
being a struggle.
And I personally have found that
therapy that includes more than
one person is more useful because
it's harder for that to get stuck.
I feel like couples therapy
or therapy with a best
friend or roommate.
I really recommend people do that
because it's like you
can't go in there and just
tell your side of the story.
But anyway, inevitably just I feel
like the growth is very rapid when

(45:17):
there's more people in the room.
But yeah, that's some
stuff on attachment.
Yeah.
I also think about back to
Francis Weller, how the first
gate of grief is everything
you love you will lose.
And this idea that in
secure attachment, the secure
attachment is built because

(45:37):
of that person not.
Not leaving or
not losing that person.
And I Remember when I was
crashing out on a five month
relationship where the person
ghosted me in therapy?
My therapist had said, well,

(45:59):
even if this didn't happen, if say
you guys stayed together forever,
one of you would eventually die.
And I was like, oh
yeah, that's true.
Even in a relationship where you're
together for the long term,
like somebody could eventually
die, change and disappoint you.

(46:22):
Like I've been, I've been
in a relationship that's
almost 16 years long and it's
like, it's been like four
relationships at least.
Total
refreshes, complete renegotiations,
you know, because otherwise what's
happening, Stagnation, you know,
we get so scared though, of,
of our partner changing like that
that can feel like such a threat.

(46:43):
Yeah.
I mean, the worst case scenario
is like, I'm like I'm so
afraid you're going to change.
You shouldn't have any new
friends, you shouldn't
have any new interests.
And this is what I see, like
my friends who are all taking
care of their elder parents.
That person doesn't have a single
friend once their lover dies,
they're, you know, or if
they're divorced or whatever.
Like that kind of the romantic
relationships isolate people

(47:04):
because of that threat.
I need, I need you.
And don't talk to anyone
about what goes on here.
The worst versions, you know.
So we only have five
more minutes left.
And Lindsay, I think you should ask
the last question because I want
to make sure we get that in.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Well, talk to us about

(47:24):
revolutionary promiscuity
and how we can practice it
if we aren't already.
Yeah, I'm glad you
like that phrasing.
I love it.
I liked it.
I saw a little stir in you.
That's fine.
I.
What I'm hoping for, I
just feel like most.
Yeah, as I mentioned, most
people are really isolated.
I feel like there's a.
All kinds of forces isolating us.

(47:46):
Like really high rents, too much
work, use of the Internet,
thinking we have a certain kind
of connection that we're getting
there when actually we're.
We're missing out on
a deeper friendships or deeper
reliable connections.
I think everybody needs just
like a much deeper bench,
a much deeper support system.
Like people who would visit you if
you got arrested or if you were in
the hospital, people who would

(48:06):
bring you food, people who'd
support you if you gave birth, if
you got chronically ill, you know,
any of it.
Right.
And most people don't
have very much of that.
And especially now, I think
conditions are Very severe.
And we're.
Most people are quite unwell.
So we all need multiple people
to call if we're having a hard
time because the first five
might not be able to call us
back, you know, because they're
taking care of someone else in

(48:27):
crisis or they're in crisis,
And you know, as you know,
you read the conclusion
of the book, I think that, you
know, the conditions are going
to get much, much worse
for the rest of our lives.
We're deep in an ecological
crisis that's going to just
produce disaster after disaster
for the rest of our lives.
And so we need a lot of support.
We need to be willing to, like,
have non exclusive relationships.

(48:48):
Like, I share this with you and I
also share it with other friends.
Like, we need to not define our
relationships by exclusivity.
Is not like we only you and I go
to this restaurant or only you
and I hang out on this holiday.
Like, we need to be like, yeah, I
want you to have a lot of support.
I want, I want.
And that includes, like, we need
to know our neighbors, like
on a very basic level, because
that's like a safety thing.
We need to, like, we need to all,

(49:10):
even if we feel socially
avoidant, even if we feel socially
anxious, figure out how
to deepen our bench of support.
Not because it's morally
right or because it's like what
the good life is, but literally
as a matter of safety and
survival and also because it's a
way of resisting a culture that
has told us to put all our eggs
in one basket and to be very

(49:31):
isolated and vulnerable.
You know, and so, yeah, so that
is my, my real call in the book.
And I think the best way to
make new friends is
to join resistance groups.
Like, it's like, it's on, like
it's, it's so bad, it's time to
like, join a child care
collective or join a collective
that's providing food to unhoused
people in the park near you or be
part of folks supporting families

(49:51):
facing deportation or join, you
know, a fight to stop a new
pipeline or to stop a new gas
plant or, you know, to, to make
your city less oriented towards
cars and more oriented towards
things, you know, public transit.
Like whatever.
Like, pick one, pick one.
Any of the things.
You know, we all need so much

(50:12):
more connection and we also all
need so much more support.
So make the projects that support
people because the tatters
of our, like, very already crappy
social care system are going
away very, very, very badly.
And already so many people
have been in crisis.
And so it's time.
It's time to find each

(50:34):
other and create methods
of care and fighting back.
And there's just a lot of inroads.
And it can be hard because we
live in a site that tells us not
to and to wait and vote
and maybe go to one protest.
But it's time to actually do
be part of groups and, and figure
out how to do that for ourselves
and be loving to ourselves about
what's hard about that and try.
Many groups don't give up if
the first one doesn't work for you

(50:55):
or if, you know, like, really keep
going and trying to find it.
But that is, that is the kind
of promiscuity I'm thinking about.
And also I think if people want to
be sexually promiscuous, I'm super
into that, do that as well.
You know, I think that can
be really like a wonderful
part of being alive that's
really shut down in our
culture and very stigmatized.
And if other people are being
sexually promiscuous,
be really supportive of them

(51:15):
and don't gossip about them.
Dean, thank you so much
for this amazing conversation.
Can you tell us where our
listeners can find you?
Yeah, there's lots and lots
of tools and things at my
website, deanspade.net,
and then I'm also on lots
of social media as Dean Spade.
I also saw that you have been
doing, doing a circuit.

(51:36):
You've been on a lot
of amazing podcasts.
Are there any that you
want to shout out?
I mean, yeah, I've had wonderful
time with podcast and I'm
doing a live book tour.
I'm going all over the United
States and on Monday.
I don't probably this won't air
that soon, but yeah, a lot
of online events as well,
so people and those are mostly
recorded and posted.
And yeah, it's
I'm just trying to get the word out

(51:57):
about these ideas and hoping
they can help support people.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so, so much.
This was such a great conversation.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoyed spending
time with you both.
Thank you for your work
and thank you for today.
Yeah, bye, Dean.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye, everybody.
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you liked what you heard, please

(52:17):
subscribe and consider leaving
a review if you haven't already.
Thank you.
You can find us on all socials
at @theHillingJourney.
You can find us online
at www.thehillingjourney.com
and you can shoot us an email
at [e-mail]