April 11, 2025 • 50 mins
Lindsay and Ilyse talk to therapist and author Amanda White, LPC about the hilling powers of Taylor Swift. They delve in to Amanda's journey with sobriety and how Taylor Swift has been with her along the way. They explore the impact of the Era's Tour and Ilyse shares how Taylor Swift can help weed out toxic men on dating apps.
To learn more about Amanda visit www.therapyforwomen.com or find her on Instagram and TikTok @Therapyforwomen . You can find her book, "Not Drinking Tonight," HERE.
To learn more about The Hilling Journey Podcast visit www.thehillingjourney.com
You can find us on Instagram and TikTok @thehillingjourney .
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We are licensed therapists, but we
probably aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful
information about mental health,
it is best to form your individual
(00:20):
care plan with your own
mental health professional.
If we are your therapists, Hi!
While this podcast shares nuggets
of wisdom about mental health,
we are sharing many pieces of
who we are outside of the therapy
room and doing a lot of yapping
about nonsense, our own healing
work, and some about sex and dating.
If you feel listening to this podcast may interfere
with your work in therapy, please refrain from doing so.
(00:43):
While we're on the subject, any notes from our dating
lives have been changed to protect the privacy of our partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Well, it feels like my episode,
even though it's a mutual meeting of the episodes.
Absolutely.
This one's very. You coded.
Very me coded.
How do you identify in this space?
(01:05):
In this space.
So I...
And this upset you when I said this earlier, but I do not identify as a Swiftie.
I think it's just the fear of labels.
Sure.
But I have been with Taylor
and Taylor has been with me
since the beginning when I was
in high school and still, like,
(01:25):
jamming a little country radio.
Yeah.
Taylor was a part of my, like, every breakup
and every, like, change.
We've been through it together.
Well, you really lived it because you were in the country.
It took me some time
because I was hearing it.
(01:46):
I was taking it in.
I was in country era.
You were taking that in her country era.
I was taking in...
I was seeing what was happening but I was in the suburbs
of Boston, so it wasn't
hitting quite the same.
So my guitar wasn't quite...
I didn't have a truck.
It wasn't as much resonance.
I had a Volkswagen Bug.
I didn't have a truck.
So...
I did have a truck.
(02:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I was at, the first time I saw Taylor was at the Red tour,
and Red hit for me.
Now, at that time,
we were the oldest people
there besides the moms.
Sure.
And we were 22, I believe,
(02:27):
which was perfect.
And then.
So I don't identify as a Swiftie.
Right.
You.
However.
I identify as a Swiftie.
I have a Taylor Swift tattoo
and I went to the Eras tour three
times, once outside the country.
(02:48):
You risked your life for that one.
I risked my life.
I got a pulmonary embolism,
and the only thing that
they could pin it on was
that flight to London.
Why am I laughing?
(03:09):
Yeah.
And would you do it again?
Absolutely.
It's horrific. And Very scary.
But they can put you on blood thinners.
And everybody at the hospital
was delighted to hear how
the pulmonary embolism came
about, and they asked if I
liked the concert, of course.
So I got to tell all the staff
(03:30):
how amazing it was.
And I got to go with one
of my best friends since
fifth grade, which was very, very
sweet to think about
how long we had been friends.
And we got to see Tortured
Poets Department
live, which was essential, which
we'll get into later.
(03:50):
The power of that record.
And so I'm very excited today to
have our guest, Amanda White, who
kind of became the therapist Queen
Swiftie on TikTok, doing Taylor
Swift mental health content.
I did.
(04:11):
So welcome, Amanda.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am very excited to be here
and to talk about this.
So tell us all the things
that you do, though, outside
of being a Swiftie, because
we'll find out about your.
Your Swiftie facets later.
But we want to hear about
everything else you do.
(04:32):
I do too many things.
I am, I'm a therapist,
first and foremost.
I have a practice called
Therapy for Women's Center.
We're based in Philly, but we have
Therapists licensed
in 42 states across the country.
I wrote a book called
"Not Drinking Tonight."
I am sober, so I'm very
(04:54):
proud of that book.
If you're a clinician, there's
also a workbook component
for clinicians, and I have
a podcast called Nuance Needed.
So those are the things.
But, yeah, I got into all
of this because
I struggled with my drinking.
I had an addiction and an
eating disorder, and I saw a
(05:17):
lot of really bad therapists,
and I finally saw a great one
who changed my life because
she was honest about her
struggles, which allowed me to
actually be honest in therapy
for the first time.
And I kind of had this moment
of feeling like, well, if I could
do that, you know, for anyone
else, that would be amazing.
(05:38):
And that's how all this started.
And Taylor Swift is very
intertwined with my mental health
journey, my sobriety journey.
So, yeah, I love talking about her.
And I stopped doing all
Taylor Swift TikTok
content because it just,
It became too much.
And I was like, I have to talk
(05:59):
about other things as well.
I kind of get burned out on things,
and then I pivot to other things,
which is not a great content
strategy, but it works for me.
Very fair.
We are actually both published
under PESI for our books.
It's really cool.
So it's kind of like cousins.
(06:20):
Yeah.
But tell us how your book
"Not Drinking Tonight" came about.
It came because there were,
there's so many incredible
quitlet books out there and I
love them all, but there are
still really very few written
by therapists and there weren't
any written by therapists when
I wrote it.
And I just think that there is
(06:41):
something very important
about an actual clinician writing
about this mental health disorder.
And you know, there are a lot
of books that share personal
experiences, share tools and tips,
but I really wanted
to get into why those work.
And you know, as
a clinician talking about.
(07:02):
I feel like a lot of books out
there are also very shame based
even if they try not to be.
They take a really hard line that
you have to be sober and drinking
is poison and it's horrible.
And I just feel like we're
alienating lots of people
by saying that
my husband doesn't drink.
(07:23):
I have a lot of.
Or my husband drinks.
I have a lot of friends who drink.
I think that the most powerful
thing you can do is question your
relationship with alcohol.
But I also am not someone
who believes everyone
has to or must stop.
And I think lots of people can
benefit from taking a break,
but people are very afraid to do
(07:43):
that a lot of times because they
don't want to be labeled.
So I really wanted to create a book
that was shame free, that gave
people tools to even just assess
their relationship with alcohol.
And I like to bring in my
perspective as someone who has
been sober for over a decade now.
I took a couple years off
(08:04):
of drinking and I wish I had had that.
I used the "Quit Like a Woman" book.
Yeah.
Which I really loved.
But I, I wish I had had yours
alongside that journey.
Thank you.
Yeah, that's a great book.
I, I love Holly Whitaker.
But yeah, I wanted, especially
when we bring in that mental
health component with
clients, I wanted to be able
(08:25):
to give people tools of how.
If you wanted to moderate,
what would that look like?
Because a lot of books
don't talk about that.
And that is something people
need to read about and learn how
to do if they don't
want to give up drinking.
Yeah.
I think sometimes what I come
up against too, with clients
who are thinking about taking
a break or going for full
(08:47):
sobriety is that AA
doesn't feel like necessarily
the right fit.
And I love how this book is such
an approachable tool to help you
in your sobriety journey or
in just taking a break.
(09:07):
I also think something that can
happen with AA, especially for
trauma survivors, is it can be
very black and white and it
doesn't take in the nuance of
trauma, which we know if we're
struggling with addiction, it's
very likely connected to some
(09:28):
trauma as well.
Can you speak a bit to
kind of the approach that
you took in the book?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And what I also talk about in
the book that is unique is I
say, right, like, if you are a
trauma survivor, if you're
actively in an unsafe
situation, stopping drinking
may not be the right thing for
(09:49):
you right now.
Like, if you have no coping
skills, ripping that away
is a lot and will create
instability in your life.
So I have kind of like an education
approach in the book.
I use three different fictional
clients because I also think
that we learn sometimes better
(10:10):
through seeing someone else's
behavior and relating to it
versus having someone lecture
us on why we should do things
different.
So I use three different clients
throughout the book to talk
about all these different
themes, and they struggle with
a different part of drinking.
And my whole kind of idea
(10:32):
of it is if you want to stop
drinking or really stop
any addictive behavior.
Because another thing I'm very
passionate about in this work is
the overlap of eating disorders,
of perfectionism, workaholism.
Right.
All of those other
addictive patterns.
If we just take that top part
away and we don't actually deal
(10:52):
with the trauma, the anxiety,
the depression, you know, the
poor communication skills,
whatever is under the surface,
we are going to have to keep
seeking something else outside
of ourselves.
So the first section is broken
up essentially into why we drink.
The middle section is the tools
that you need to stop drinking.
(11:12):
So I talk about boundaries
and self care and reparenting.
And then the last part of the book
is putting it all into practice.
So talking about how do
you have sober sex?
How do you make sober friends?
Can you moderate what are, you
know, if you want to try
moderating, this is what I
recommend, and things like that.
(11:33):
Okay, so going back a little bit,
tell us a little
bit about what led you.
I heard this story
about your therapist.
What else lead to that decision?
To becoming a therapist
and then owning a group practice?
I graduated from college.
I was still in my addiction.
I was a disaster.
And I honestly was like,
I literally worked
at a frozen yogurt shop.
(11:53):
After I graduated college, I didn't
know what to do with my life,
and I decided that I would try
to figure out what I wanted to do.
And, yeah, that experience
in therapy was really powerful.
And I started just taking classes,
and I wasn't sure whether
I definitely wanted to become
a therapist or not, But
I really loved being in recovery.
(12:16):
The process of learning about
people and learning why
they ended up with an addiction.
And I was in group therapy
myself, and I thought it was so
fascinating to be in that.
And, yeah, I really.
When I got,
When I graduated, I worked
at a drug and alcohol rehab
for quite a few years, which
was a really great experience
(12:37):
in continuing that.
And the reason that I started my
practice was because I really,
I really wanted to focus on women,
and I really wanted to focus
on when I was also getting sober.
I had an eating disorder.
I had trauma.
I had an addiction.
I definitely had perfectionism.
Like, I had a lot.
I struggled with drug addiction for a while.
(12:59):
There were a lot of pieces.
So I often.
Although I had a great therapist,
I was referred to other therapists
as well, and it felt very
disjointed sometimes.
And when I was working at a
rehab, I saw specifically how
many women who had alcohol or
drug problems also had very much
(13:20):
an underlying eating disorder,
or it would come out when they
started eating again and they
gained weight.
And there was a really sad phrase
that's very common in rehabs that
is like, I would rather be skinny
and high than fat and sober.
So when I started my practice,
(13:40):
I wanted to just talk
about all the overlaps.
So I really specialize in
the conjuncture of all these
addictive patterns and alcohol
and drugs and trauma and how
these all intersect and meet.
And then my practice just kind
of was born out of that because
I realized I didn't
(14:01):
have training in ocd, and some
of my clients needed that.
So we hired an OCD therapist,
and then people needed a
couples therapist, and I just
hired people who specialized
in other things or were better
than me, you know, at certain
things.
And it all just stemmed essentially from there.
We have a nutritionist.
We have a psychiatrist.
(14:22):
I really just believe in collaborative care and the power
of clinicians coming together and sharing resources
in one space.
Very cool.
I think that's been a thing with our group practices,
too, and how it made sense to grow the practices.
(14:42):
Yeah.
So now for maybe not more
exciting, but the moment we've been waiting for.
So how did you first get into Taylor Swift, and when did you
consider yourself to be a Swiftie?
Okay, so I am the same age as
(15:03):
Taylor Swift, pretty much.
So I grew up with her.
I liked her music in high school.
When her first album came out,
I was very into that album.
And what's interesting is Taylor Swift is very intertwined
with my addiction.
So this was more when I was,
you know, in high school,
I wasn't drinking really.
(15:24):
Yet.
And then I also had this
weird thing growing up where
my parents were very against
going to concerts.
They had this whole idea of like,
it's a waste to go to a concert.
It's so expensive, you can never find good tickets.
Which is hilarious now because like in the 90s,
like it was affordable back then.
(15:46):
But my parents just like don't like big venues.
So that was just something instilled in me.
So I didn't really go to any concerts growing up.
So I never even thought to go to one of hers until later.
Which is very sad to me.
But yeah, I really liked her.
I liked her high school album.
(16:07):
I liked "Fearless" a lot.
I, though, took a turn into my
addiction once "Fearless" came out.
So I really didn't relate to her
like good girl image anymore,
which I used to, I remember right.
She came to the Grammys, I think
in like 2008 or 2010
in like a horse drawn carriage.
(16:28):
And I did not relate
to the princess
of it all or any of that.
I still loved her music
and would listen.
But I wouldn't have called
myself a Swiftie then because
I think it was internalized
misogyny on some level.
But also I was just drinking
and like into doing drugs and did
(16:50):
not relate to, you know,
"Romeo and Juliet," singing fair,
I remember I loved like the song
"Breathe" when I, when my boyfriend
and I broke up, I like listened
to that song on repeat.
I loved "Forever and Always."
And I really loved her "Speak now"
album that came out and like that
(17:11):
anger I really related to more.
But there was a
I mean, yeah, I'm interested in
your guys answers to this too,
but I, I don't think I would
have even considered myself a
Swiftie then because it, it
wasn't cool, you know, And I
was very obsessed with being
cool in college.
(17:33):
Yeah, I think it did not, I
would not have called myself
a Swiftie until "Red" came out.
Yeah.
And when "Red" came out I,
my boyfriend who became my husband
and then ex husband.
We broke up for like
a little while.
(17:55):
And I remember like I was just
engrossed in "Red" and that's
when I became a Swiftie.
And that album still holds like
a very special place in my heart.
Like of course we all
are obsessed with "All too Well
(the 10 Minute Version.)"
And I needed that.
And even on the Taylor's
(18:15):
Version of "Red", like
those songs resonate so much.
The song with Phoebe Bridgers
on that record where she says,
"how can a person know everything
at 18 and nothing at 22?"
Oh my God.
So that's when I, like, became
a swiftie, but I kind of,
(18:35):
like, listened along the way
in high school, but it.
It didn't really strike.
And even when I listen to...
This is really embarrassing.
This is really embarrassing.
When I started dating again
after I divorced my husband,
I loved "Enchanted," and.
(19:05):
And I would, like...
I knew that I would, like,
listen to "Enchanted,"
when I was starting to
limerance around somebody.
Oh, boy.
Yeah, it was rough.
It was rough.
So that's when, like, that
struck for me.
But "Red" is really, like, my
record and when I became a Swiftie.
And we know you do not identify
(19:26):
as a Swiftie, but so again, I think
mine comes from just like a
I don't want to be labeled,
especially, like, if.
If and when she does something
really, really problematic.
I would like a little...
You don't have to get
a tattoo removed.
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm keeping a safe
distance, but loving
and appreciating all the same.
Yeah.
Like I said,
(19:46):
I started with her
in late high school.
How old is Taylor Swift?
She's..
Did she just turn 36?
Okay, she just turned 35.
She just turned 35.
So I'm
We're a smidge older than her.
Yeah, yeah.
But, yeah, same.
Same story.
Amanda, like, I grew up
with her, and, yeah, she
(20:07):
was kind of interwoven.
I remember it feeling
I remember when "Shake it
Off" came out, and I remember
being like, whoa, girl.
What is like, what are you doing?
Yeah, this is like.
This is big.
Like, you're up to some stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
And I remember feeling just like,
so, like the limitlessness of
(20:27):
art, of women.
Like, I just remember feeling
really, like, enchanted by that.
And you're going to read me
for that one for a long time.
Yes.
I think that that maybe was when
things like, I got.
I loved her forever, but then
I think that was a piece
that I was like, oh, shit.
(20:47):
You just do what you want, I guess.
Like, yeah, like, yeah, yeah.
It's so interesting, Ilyse,
hearing about "Red," because I
think that is very common.
A lot of people get in with "Red"
and what's interesting is I was
so far gone in my addiction
by the time "Red" came out.
I, like, didn't listen
to music for a while.
I was so suicidal and so far gone.
(21:10):
And she also dressed like a 50s
housewife during "Red," which
I was like, what are you doing?
This is...
I, like, had had it
that she was still.
I didn't even listen to the album
because I saw how she was
dressing, I think, and was just
like, I don't relate to this at
all and then I got sober right
(21:32):
after that, right around when
"1989" came out.
Trying to think of the exact
time that 1989 came out,
I got sober and that totally
changed everything for me and I
became full obsessed.
Bonafide Swiftie.
My issue with her had always been
I was never a country person.
(21:53):
When I was super young in high
school, I like it was
interesting and different enough
that I liked it, but that was
always my hang up with it.
So when she fully switched
to pop, I was like, oh, my God.
Because the lyrics were
always what I loved.
So when I heard her doing
(22:14):
pop but keeping her deep
lyrics, I was obsessed.
The song "Clean" is like one
of the most important songs
to me because it was like,
about my addiction and getting
clean and all of that.
And then "Reputation" is
so important to me.
It was like when I met
my husband and all.
(22:38):
Yeah, "Reputation" is still
the most important album to me.
So I was fully, fully,
fully converted.
I couldn't get tickets to "1989,"
but I got them for "Reputation."
And then it was, you know, once
you see her live, your obsession
just goes to a different level.
But it was so strange to see,
like, everything change with
"Midnights" and the ERAS tour.
Because when I was going
(22:58):
to "Reputation" tour, no one
wanted to go with me.
I had to, like, bribe my friends
essentially, and pay
for their tickets for them to go.
But were they converted
after they went?
Doesn't look good.
They loved it and they
thought she was great,
but I think that they were.
They just weren't on my level.
(23:19):
Like, I,
after Reputation, I like,
stalked every Reddit thread.
I got so into the lore.
I had a very similar.
I met my husband the same
time she met Joe.
So I was like super bonded
into that experience.
I was also devastated when they
broke up because of that.
(23:42):
So, yeah, that I don't know.
I really like personally, like,
it went from music to being
really into her personally
during "Reputation" specifically.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
As we're talking about the
albums, I'm thinking about how
they were interwoven in my life
and my relationship, which was
(24:05):
not a good relationship, but
like "1989" came out the year I
got married and had my daughter,
which is really cool that she
was like, raised with "1989" and
so she's been a swiftie.
Like, we got to go to the ERAS
tour for her eighth birthday.
Oh, my gosh.
That's what I recorded.
(24:25):
Can I just interrupt
you for a second?
Yes, please.
When I went to the ERAS
tour, my daughter was
three months old and I recorded,
I have a video on my phone
of, like, me talking to her,
if she ever cares about it.
To be like, I'm thinking of you.
I wish you were here with me.
That's so sweet.
That is so cool.
(24:46):
I love.
I don't know if she'll ever want to
listen to it, but I was obsessed
with figuring out how to go when
I was super pregnant because her.
My due date was the exact date that
she was going to be in Tampa.
So I was trying to figure
out if I could fly
to Arizona, what I could do.
I had the most miserable pregnancy.
So I was like, I am going
(25:07):
no matter what.
And I just.
So what I did was
I just picked the farthest date out
of the North America tour.
Cause remember her, right?
Like the abroad stuff, we didn't
know if it was going to happen.
So I went to LA
and I was like, this is,
I'm going to give myself
this gift of going
by myself to the ERAS tour.
This is my, you know, my gift
(25:29):
for giving birth.
I love that.
And I carried it
through my pregnancy.
I love that.
Yeah.
So my
I grew up going to a lot
of concerts and my dad and I have
always had a close relationship
because of pop music.
And so he actually had
seen Taylor with me.
He's loved Taylor for a long time.
(25:51):
I did ask him today
for the episode.
I asked him and
my oldest daughter, who's
about to be 10, I was like,
what do you love about Taylor?
And he said he loves that she
is an incredible
songwriter and storyteller.
(26:11):
So he's a bit
He is a swiftie.
We saw her.
They do these, like, in between
performances at F1, which is
like a car race in Austin, where
when an artist is like, between
albums, they perform at F1.
And Taylor performed one
year and we were like.
We got pit tickets.
(26:32):
And so nobody was that into her
at that time, because it was right
between "Reputation" and "Lover."
Yeah.
And it was incredible.
And yeah, so he had seen her then.
And then
when I found out about the ERAS
tour, I said, "dad, I really need
(26:53):
you to come see the ERAS tour
with me either in Houston or
Dallas because I have to heal
from my divorce."
And he said, "I'm
getting the tickets."
And we went to see her in Houston
and it was really, really fun.
Now, how did you know that
that would heal you?
(27:13):
Well, what about it?
Wouldn't I totally...
Being in a stadium full of women,
bonding with my dad, listening
to all the breakup music, just
everything about it would heal me.
Absolutely.
And it did.
And it did, but my dad said
(27:34):
that that was the best concert
that he had been to in his life.
This man has seen.
Wow.
Paul McCartney and the Rolling
Stones, every
single tour since 1969.
And he said the ERAS tour was
the best concert
he has gone to in his life.
I believe it.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
(27:55):
What healed you
about the ERAS tour?
Okay, I'm going to say
something controversial that
I do think that the "Reputation"
tour healed me more.
That's fair.
But I think the coolest thing
about the ERAS tour that
really healed me was.
I mean, obviously the scale of it
was incredible, but I was
(28:17):
just so inspired by how I'm
just someone who is very, like,
embarrassed of my, like, old self
in lots of ways.
Like, I.
I'm very prone to thinking
I was cringy and killing
those parts of myself off.
And to see her doing stuff
that was, like, cringy.
Right.
Like, she's act like.
She says, like, want to go back
(28:37):
to high school with me and stuff.
And watching her just fully own
it was so powerful to see, and
it gave me a lot of space to be
more myself, be more authentic,
not kill off older parts of
myself and embrace, like,
cringiness.
(28:59):
Yeah, I think that was the.
I mean, there were a lot
of things, but that was one
of the biggest things for.
I was just so struck
by that the whole time.
So I think that's one
of the things that gets me and.
And makes me really emotional
about the Taylor's versions.
Yeah.
So my tattoo.
(29:20):
Yes, says Taylor's version.
And partly I got that tattoo
because of what it represents with
her, like, fighting against this
man that, like all of her music.
But I think there's also.
And maybe this is something that
therapists think about more than
(29:41):
the general public, but there is
something so beautiful to me
about her going back and
revisiting all of this old
music, like, visiting all of
these old parts of herself that
she's matured from.
And she's, like, singing these
(30:03):
old songs with a mature voice.
She's experienced so much more
in life and relationships
since these older songs.
And
And then, like, hearing the songs
from the Vault that, like, didn't
make it on, that are a lot
of them, like, more controversial.
(30:26):
Like "Slut (Taylor's version)".
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just get really emotional
around the Taylor's versions.
How do those land with you?
Oh, yeah.
I'm very, very emotional
about them.
I love them so, so, so much.
I still don't listen to, like,
Fearless a lot because I just.
(30:47):
It's just not my album
the country stuff.
I probably won't listen
to debut a lot, but yeah, I.
I think, I think it's
incredible what she's done.
I think it is.
It gives me chills to go back
and think about,
like, the different path she could
have taken and how different.
Like, I was obsessed with that Time
(31:08):
article that came out last year.
Like, I have her,
I have the time, I have the
I have it framed of like that,
the COVID of that magazine.
Just because I feel like I'm
someone who has struggled so much
with people pleasing and wanting
to be good enough.
And I just like "Miss Americana."
All of that just like, was so
(31:29):
incredible to me in understanding
her and relating to her so much.
So it's just so cool to watch
what she's done and go back.
And I get chills thinking about
what would have happened if she
wouldn't have done that or even
I make up that on some level
her and Joe were having
conversations about her not
going on tour.
(31:49):
And can you imagine, like, how
different things would have
been if this tour didn't exist?
If she wouldn't have done
that, it would have been so.
It wouldn't have been
the way that it is.
And it's just.
Yeah.
I also really am
such a try hard on every level.
And I really relate to that in
(32:10):
her and I really appreciate
that she is, like, open about
that versus so many people try
to be cool and try not to try
to make things look
effortless.
And I think it's such
a powerful example.
Yeah, I watched Miss Americana
with my daughter
who's about to turn 10.
(32:32):
And obviously Taylor Swift
has always been very
ingrained in her life.
And she had a really,
really tough time at the beginning
of this school year.
She was like, struggling
with going to school.
It was extremely stressful.
She was having a lot of anxiety.
(32:52):
And we started
to watch "Miss Americana."
And I had talked to her a little
bit about what happened
at the VMAs with Taylor and Kanye.
And I, I showed her
specifically that piece and then
we talked about it.
And in that way that like Dan
Siegel talks about how kids talk
(33:13):
through stories to, like, work
through their trauma, she was
talking about that to anybody who
would listen, like, bringing up
like, well, one year, like, Taylor
was winning a VMA and Kanye west
got up on the stage and really
embarrassed Taylor.
(33:33):
And we, I, you know, as
a therapist, I was like,
see, you can see her
freeze response as she's.
As this is happening.
Yes.
And we've straightened it out.
But for a little while, she was
confused about Kendrick Lamar
versus Kanye, the K names.
And so I've been like, no, no, no.
Like, Kendrick Lamar is
on the "Bad Blood" remix.
(33:54):
This has nothing to do with Kanye.
But she'll like.
She was asking for a little
bit, like, oh, is that the man
that did that to Taylor?
And I was like, no, no, no.
This man is a very good man.
Like, we love his music in this
house, but, you know, on so
many levels, we can't relate
to her at all because of how
(34:15):
wealthy and powerful she is.
But then she's just a girl's girl,
and she has struggled,
and she's showed us her struggles.
And so I'm especially curious
what it was like for you
with the population you work with
and with all of your expertise,
hearing her speak to her
eating disorder as well.
(34:37):
Yeah, I mean, I had always
suspected that she had one during
"1989," so I think it was amazing
to hear her talk about that.
I think she set such
a great example for women
to be open about that.
So, yeah, I mean,
I thought that was incredible.
(34:58):
And as someone who had an eating
disorder, definitely related
to a lot of what
she was talking about.
And I think it's just been
really cool to see
because I was very, like.
When you looked at her, it
was very scary a lot
of times during that time.
And that was something that I
didn't relate to her on because
I had given up my eating disorder
(35:21):
at that point, and I also
never looked like that, so.
But, yeah, I think
that her talking.
I wish she would still
talk about it more.
I get why she doesn't.
But, yeah, I think that
that was really powerful
for her to talk about.
I've had several clients who
identify as Swifties,
and they're like.
(35:41):
I love how we're saying
we identify as Swifties.
And, like, she's been
so important to them.
There's this one client
that keeps popping up in my
mind as we're talking.
How do you guys.
How are.
I'm imagining that you guys are
weaving Taylor into your sessions?
(36:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that.
Tell us.
Let's hear a little...
Yeah, I mean, I love it because,
you know, they'd explain
to me what lyrics are
really striking to them.
Especially, you know, during
the pandemic, I had a lot
of clients that were talking more
about "Folklore" and "Evermore"
(36:22):
and things like that.
And that was essentially how
my whole TikTok account started.
I would
The TikTok that started it was.
You know, my favorite sessions are
when clients come in and tell me
what song is stuck in their head.
Cause it tells me,
you know, everything that I need
to know in context, right.
Of what's going on.
(36:45):
So, yeah, I think those sessions
are so fun to talk about
what lyrics they relate to.
Why?
Because she just gives words
to experiences that you didn't
even know you were feeling.
One of my favorites that I
really have talked to a lot
of clients about is the one that
I'm thinking of is "Peace."
I think it is such an incredible
representation of someone who
(37:05):
struggles with mental health and
someone that doesn't, and how,
like, you can promise them
everything, but they're never
going to have a peaceful life if
they live with you because there's
going to be drama that is part of
your life, essentially.
So I've talked to clients a lot
about that, and they've really
talked about how they relate to
that and wonder if they will be
able to find someone or if the
(37:26):
person they are with will be
able to accept them, even if
they can never, you know, give
them peace.
And I find the ones that I
relate to personally are.
You know, we can get
on an even deeper level because
I relate to that as well.
I don't know how it landed
in sessions for you or how it
(37:48):
landed personally, but I know
on a personal level for us,
we were, like, wrecked
by a "Tortured Poet's Department."
Like, I was listening to it
for, like, two hours a night
in the bath, crying.
It really hit.
Yeah.
(38:09):
And I wonder your insight on why
that one was such a particularly
powerful album for people.
I definitely think that it explores
mental health themes in a way
that she's never explored before.
I think a lot of it.
Right.
Even if you look at "Peace,"
it's more about her fame.
(38:31):
Right.
Rather than really explicitly
talking about mental health.
So I think those of us that
struggle with mental health
can read between the lines
and know what she's saying.
But this was so overt that
other people that maybe wouldn't
have thought she was that deep
really understood it.
On a different level, I personally,
(38:52):
although I saw critique about,
like, the metaphor of the mental
hospital, I thought it was
a very powerful representation.
I related to it and had
a lot of clients relate
to feeling that way.
So I think it was a lot of that.
I mean, the lyrics were just so.
I mean, her lyrics are
always incredible.
(39:13):
But there was something, especially
when you compare it
to "Midnights," which I also love.
But "Tortured Poets" is just so long.
It's so dense to me.
Like, I've always loved
Lana Del Rey, but the music
is what I get tripped on.
Like her words are incredible,
but I don't love the music.
(39:33):
And to me, Tortured Poets felt like
all of the depth I
could ever want from Taylor.
But with the matching
really interesting vocals that are
really interesting music that
works in tandem together.
And I can say I personally
struggled a lot last year with
(39:54):
just changes with my business.
Feeling like I didn't know what
I was doing, feeling angry.
So some of those songs really
just were so healing
for me on so many levels.
Very similar, a lot
of personal struggles, struggles
with the business.
Like I
(40:16):
Like I took on different
songs at different times.
But I remember when I was deeply
struggling with the business and
you know, as like a therapist,
social media personality, like
trying to be at a public facing
professional while you're in
personal struggle.
Like "I Can Do it
(40:36):
With a Broken Heart."
Yeah.
Is such an incredible
song to capture that.
And then I remember when I was
struggling with my people
pleaser parts versus business.
I was all about "Who's Afraid
of Little Old Me," what about you?
(40:57):
So I
I was so.
I'm so impressed by how
y'all have time stamped your life
with her record.
I am.
I was truly blown away while
y'all were going, while you
were walking us through that.
But this one did,
I do have a time stamp on.
This one is I was.
I'm going through a divorce
and this one was like a big piece
(41:18):
of that and the all
of the acknowledgment of loving
men that are bad for us.
Yeah, like that's my like
post divorce dating era.
And like so yeah, it.
I remember we were in Marfa
walking down the streets
and just like call and response
singing "So Long London."
(41:38):
And that just like was so healing.
So healing.
And then today in the car,
I was listening
to the album and straight.
Straight out the slammer.
Fresh Out...
Thank you.
"Fresh Out the Slammer."
And that's what separates a Swiftie
(41:59):
from somebody who does not
identify as a Swiftie.
But yeah, y'all's recall.
Yeah.
Albums and song titles.
I'm like, oh wow.
Wow.
Okay, this is.
Yeah, that's the delineator.
But I texted Ilyse about that
song because I had a crush on
our contractor when I was married
(42:23):
and post that rung him up.
And that song just really felt.
I really could feel that
energy with that song.
Like, oh, I know exactly
who my first call is.
So yeah, the whole, the whole
album really did it for me.
We also have a lot of jokes in
(42:43):
our dating life about men passing
away, like when we don't hear
from them or when we have
to lay them officially to rest.
And there's a lot of
metaphor around.
Yeah, yeah.
We've conducted actually like to
my third ERAS tour in London.
(43:03):
I wore like funeral blacks
to like lay all those men to rest
that didn't deserve to be.
That Florida lyric is really.
Yeah.
So powerful.
All the bodies that
have been on my body.
(43:24):
Fuck, yeah.
Yeah.
You mentioned earlier, and I
said it again, the internalized
misogyny around Taylor Swift.
Yeah.
Ilyse has a really beautiful
vetting question for dating.
She'll ask if she's
on a date with a man or going
on a date with a man.
She'll ask him his favorite.
No, that's not what I say.
(43:45):
It literally said on my Hinge
profile, like, you, you have to
like at least one Taylor Swift
song because this is seriously
the best weeding out question
for men because they will
actually tell you how they feel
about Taylor Swift.
I have had men who masquerade
(44:06):
as like feminists.
Yeah.
One gentleman.
And I don't want to give specifics.
Lovely man from...
And I'm not going to say the other
pieces, but he went off about how
Taylor Swift actually represents
(44:28):
capitalism, which is fair.
Like there are some
pieces about that.
One man asked me for
we were supposed to go for a ride
on his motorcycle and he asked me
for a FaceTime the night before
the date and I ended up having
to cancel because of his.
He went off on Taylor Swift and how
she actually has put men in a
(44:53):
She has put men like in a
What am I looking for?
Like, everybody was
mad at "Barbie" too.
I didn't ask his opinion,
but I had heard enough.
I said like, it's important
to me that people can find
at least one Taylor Swift song
they like because The National
produced one of the albums.
(45:14):
And so if you like, you can find at
least one song if you're an indie
guy on "Folklore" or "Evermore" that
you like or Kendrick Lamar remix.
Yes, Lamar remix.
There has to be something.
And so seriously, it tells me
so much about a man,
their feelings on Taylor Swift.
(45:34):
They do not have to be
obsessed with her.
But you do like it when
they have a little.
I like it when they
appreciate my obsession.
Yeah.
And I do like it.
If they are actually
into her, that's great.
But that's not necessary.
I just need to know that they can
find at least one song and they
don't even have to sit through all
too well the 10 minute version.
(45:57):
Yeah, that's my thing.
I love it.
I think that's a Great.
A great thing.
Yeah.
Anything else on Taylor before we
ask you our final question?
I just think what she's been
through is so inspiring.
And sometimes I don't let
myself get fully inspired by it
because I think of the rhetoric
(46:17):
that exists online.
Right.
It's easy to be like,
she's a billionaire.
She has so much power.
And that's true.
True.
But when I am struggling
in my personal life, it's why
I have that cover framed.
I think about that Time article.
I think about all
she's been through.
I think about.
"Thank you, Amy."
Right.
As like, if
(46:38):
this wouldn't have happened,
if she wouldn't have been
able to, you know, if.
If all this stuff hadn't happened
with Kanye west and everything
she went through, like, her
journey is such an incredible arc
when you actually look at it.
And there were so many times
where people forget, like,
she really was unpopular,
she really was hated.
(47:00):
And it is so cool to think
about where she is now.
And she didn't stop.
She just didn't stop producing.
She didn't stop making music.
She didn't stop being herself.
And I think that's
really inspiring.
I love that.
And I want to tag on how cool it is
(47:21):
that it's such a uniting force.
And I think coming out of COVID
where we were so isolated and I
love that we have "Folklore" and
"Evermore" to represent that time
where we were all kind of
hibernating to come out of it
and unite at the ERAs tour and
(47:41):
like, most insane bathroom line
I've ever seen.
Because it was mostly women.
Yeah.
But everybody was so nice.
Everybody was so excited
to be there.
Everybody was so different
from each other.
But to just unite in this joyous
(48:02):
experience and to be
like singing to strangers
and hugging your friends.
I think there was a reason that so
many of us wanted to go multiple
times to experience that high.
And I think about how it
was such a contrast.
It's like a moment of feeling
truly, like, so alive.
(48:24):
Yeah.
And so I love her along
with everything it represents
for all of us.
Personally, I love
how it's such a uniting force.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
Amanda, marry, fuck,
kill "Red," "Reputation"
(48:44):
and "Tortured Poets."
I would Kill "Red."
I would have to marry "Reputation."
Yeah.
And I would fuck "Tortured."
because "Reputation"
Like, if I like "Reputation."
Yeah.
"Reputation," like "New Year's Day"
is my all time favorite song.
It was my wedding song.
(49:05):
I'm obsessed with it.
It just the rest of my life doesn't
make sense without "Reputation."
Which sounds insane.
Yes.
But that's how I feel.
That's how you feel.
Totally get it.
Thank you so much for
being with us today.
Where can listeners find you
and especially find your book?
(49:26):
Yeah, so you can find
my book on Amazon.
It's called "Not Drinking Tonight."
You can learn more about me and my
practice at theapyforwomencenter.com
and you can follow me on Instagram
or Tik tok @Therapyforwomen.
And my podcast is called
"Nuance Needed."
Amazing.
Thank you so much.
This was awesome.
(49:46):
Thank you guys so much.
This was so great.
So fun.
Bye.
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you liked what you heard, please
subscribe and consider leaving
a review if you haven't already.
Thank you.
You can find us on all
socials @thehillingjourney.
You can find us online at
www.thehillingjourney.com and you
can shoot us an email
at thehillingjourney@gmail.com.
(50:09):
Talk soon.
We are licensed therapists, but we
probably aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful
information about mental health,
it is best to form your individual
(00:20):
care plan with your own
mental health professional.
If we are your therapists, Hi!
While this podcast shares nuggets
of wisdom about mental health,
we are sharing many pieces of
who we are outside of the therapy
room and doing a lot of yapping
about nonsense, our own healing
work, and some about sex and dating.
If you feel listening to this podcast may interfere
with your work in therapy, please refrain from doing so.
(00:43):
While we're on the subject, any notes from our dating
lives have been changed to protect the privacy of our partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Well, it feels like my episode,
even though it's a mutual meeting of the episodes.
Absolutely.
This one's very. You coded.
Very me coded.
How do you identify in this space?
(01:05):
In this space.
So I...
And this upset you when I said this earlier, but I do not identify as a Swiftie.
I think it's just the fear of labels.
Sure.
But I have been with Taylor
and Taylor has been with me
since the beginning when I was
in high school and still, like,
(01:25):
jamming a little country radio.
Yeah.
Taylor was a part of my, like, every breakup
and every, like, change.
We've been through it together.
Well, you really lived it because you were in the country.
It took me some time
because I was hearing it.
(01:46):
I was taking it in.
I was in country era.
You were taking that in her country era.
I was taking in...
I was seeing what was happening but I was in the suburbs
of Boston, so it wasn't
hitting quite the same.
So my guitar wasn't quite...
I didn't have a truck.
It wasn't as much resonance.
I had a Volkswagen Bug.
I didn't have a truck.
So...
I did have a truck.
(02:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I was at, the first time I saw Taylor was at the Red tour,
and Red hit for me.
Now, at that time,
we were the oldest people
there besides the moms.
Sure.
And we were 22, I believe,
(02:27):
which was perfect.
And then.
So I don't identify as a Swiftie.
Right.
You.
However.
I identify as a Swiftie.
I have a Taylor Swift tattoo
and I went to the Eras tour three
times, once outside the country.
(02:48):
You risked your life for that one.
I risked my life.
I got a pulmonary embolism,
and the only thing that
they could pin it on was
that flight to London.
Why am I laughing?
(03:09):
Yeah.
And would you do it again?
Absolutely.
It's horrific. And Very scary.
But they can put you on blood thinners.
And everybody at the hospital
was delighted to hear how
the pulmonary embolism came
about, and they asked if I
liked the concert, of course.
So I got to tell all the staff
(03:30):
how amazing it was.
And I got to go with one
of my best friends since
fifth grade, which was very, very
sweet to think about
how long we had been friends.
And we got to see Tortured
Poets Department
live, which was essential, which
we'll get into later.
(03:50):
The power of that record.
And so I'm very excited today to
have our guest, Amanda White, who
kind of became the therapist Queen
Swiftie on TikTok, doing Taylor
Swift mental health content.
I did.
(04:11):
So welcome, Amanda.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am very excited to be here
and to talk about this.
So tell us all the things
that you do, though, outside
of being a Swiftie, because
we'll find out about your.
Your Swiftie facets later.
But we want to hear about
everything else you do.
(04:32):
I do too many things.
I am, I'm a therapist,
first and foremost.
I have a practice called
Therapy for Women's Center.
We're based in Philly, but we have
Therapists licensed
in 42 states across the country.
I wrote a book called
"Not Drinking Tonight."
I am sober, so I'm very
(04:54):
proud of that book.
If you're a clinician, there's
also a workbook component
for clinicians, and I have
a podcast called Nuance Needed.
So those are the things.
But, yeah, I got into all
of this because
I struggled with my drinking.
I had an addiction and an
eating disorder, and I saw a
(05:17):
lot of really bad therapists,
and I finally saw a great one
who changed my life because
she was honest about her
struggles, which allowed me to
actually be honest in therapy
for the first time.
And I kind of had this moment
of feeling like, well, if I could
do that, you know, for anyone
else, that would be amazing.
(05:38):
And that's how all this started.
And Taylor Swift is very
intertwined with my mental health
journey, my sobriety journey.
So, yeah, I love talking about her.
And I stopped doing all
Taylor Swift TikTok
content because it just,
It became too much.
And I was like, I have to talk
(05:59):
about other things as well.
I kind of get burned out on things,
and then I pivot to other things,
which is not a great content
strategy, but it works for me.
Very fair.
We are actually both published
under PESI for our books.
It's really cool.
So it's kind of like cousins.
(06:20):
Yeah.
But tell us how your book
"Not Drinking Tonight" came about.
It came because there were,
there's so many incredible
quitlet books out there and I
love them all, but there are
still really very few written
by therapists and there weren't
any written by therapists when
I wrote it.
And I just think that there is
(06:41):
something very important
about an actual clinician writing
about this mental health disorder.
And you know, there are a lot
of books that share personal
experiences, share tools and tips,
but I really wanted
to get into why those work.
And you know, as
a clinician talking about.
(07:02):
I feel like a lot of books out
there are also very shame based
even if they try not to be.
They take a really hard line that
you have to be sober and drinking
is poison and it's horrible.
And I just feel like we're
alienating lots of people
by saying that
my husband doesn't drink.
(07:23):
I have a lot of.
Or my husband drinks.
I have a lot of friends who drink.
I think that the most powerful
thing you can do is question your
relationship with alcohol.
But I also am not someone
who believes everyone
has to or must stop.
And I think lots of people can
benefit from taking a break,
but people are very afraid to do
(07:43):
that a lot of times because they
don't want to be labeled.
So I really wanted to create a book
that was shame free, that gave
people tools to even just assess
their relationship with alcohol.
And I like to bring in my
perspective as someone who has
been sober for over a decade now.
I took a couple years off
(08:04):
of drinking and I wish I had had that.
I used the "Quit Like a Woman" book.
Yeah.
Which I really loved.
But I, I wish I had had yours
alongside that journey.
Thank you.
Yeah, that's a great book.
I, I love Holly Whitaker.
But yeah, I wanted, especially
when we bring in that mental
health component with
clients, I wanted to be able
(08:25):
to give people tools of how.
If you wanted to moderate,
what would that look like?
Because a lot of books
don't talk about that.
And that is something people
need to read about and learn how
to do if they don't
want to give up drinking.
Yeah.
I think sometimes what I come
up against too, with clients
who are thinking about taking
a break or going for full
(08:47):
sobriety is that AA
doesn't feel like necessarily
the right fit.
And I love how this book is such
an approachable tool to help you
in your sobriety journey or
in just taking a break.
(09:07):
I also think something that can
happen with AA, especially for
trauma survivors, is it can be
very black and white and it
doesn't take in the nuance of
trauma, which we know if we're
struggling with addiction, it's
very likely connected to some
(09:28):
trauma as well.
Can you speak a bit to
kind of the approach that
you took in the book?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And what I also talk about in
the book that is unique is I
say, right, like, if you are a
trauma survivor, if you're
actively in an unsafe
situation, stopping drinking
may not be the right thing for
(09:49):
you right now.
Like, if you have no coping
skills, ripping that away
is a lot and will create
instability in your life.
So I have kind of like an education
approach in the book.
I use three different fictional
clients because I also think
that we learn sometimes better
(10:10):
through seeing someone else's
behavior and relating to it
versus having someone lecture
us on why we should do things
different.
So I use three different clients
throughout the book to talk
about all these different
themes, and they struggle with
a different part of drinking.
And my whole kind of idea
(10:32):
of it is if you want to stop
drinking or really stop
any addictive behavior.
Because another thing I'm very
passionate about in this work is
the overlap of eating disorders,
of perfectionism, workaholism.
Right.
All of those other
addictive patterns.
If we just take that top part
away and we don't actually deal
(10:52):
with the trauma, the anxiety,
the depression, you know, the
poor communication skills,
whatever is under the surface,
we are going to have to keep
seeking something else outside
of ourselves.
So the first section is broken
up essentially into why we drink.
The middle section is the tools
that you need to stop drinking.
(11:12):
So I talk about boundaries
and self care and reparenting.
And then the last part of the book
is putting it all into practice.
So talking about how do
you have sober sex?
How do you make sober friends?
Can you moderate what are, you
know, if you want to try
moderating, this is what I
recommend, and things like that.
(11:33):
Okay, so going back a little bit,
tell us a little
bit about what led you.
I heard this story
about your therapist.
What else lead to that decision?
To becoming a therapist
and then owning a group practice?
I graduated from college.
I was still in my addiction.
I was a disaster.
And I honestly was like,
I literally worked
at a frozen yogurt shop.
(11:53):
After I graduated college, I didn't
know what to do with my life,
and I decided that I would try
to figure out what I wanted to do.
And, yeah, that experience
in therapy was really powerful.
And I started just taking classes,
and I wasn't sure whether
I definitely wanted to become
a therapist or not, But
I really loved being in recovery.
(12:16):
The process of learning about
people and learning why
they ended up with an addiction.
And I was in group therapy
myself, and I thought it was so
fascinating to be in that.
And, yeah, I really.
When I got,
When I graduated, I worked
at a drug and alcohol rehab
for quite a few years, which
was a really great experience
(12:37):
in continuing that.
And the reason that I started my
practice was because I really,
I really wanted to focus on women,
and I really wanted to focus
on when I was also getting sober.
I had an eating disorder.
I had trauma.
I had an addiction.
I definitely had perfectionism.
Like, I had a lot.
I struggled with drug addiction for a while.
(12:59):
There were a lot of pieces.
So I often.
Although I had a great therapist,
I was referred to other therapists
as well, and it felt very
disjointed sometimes.
And when I was working at a
rehab, I saw specifically how
many women who had alcohol or
drug problems also had very much
(13:20):
an underlying eating disorder,
or it would come out when they
started eating again and they
gained weight.
And there was a really sad phrase
that's very common in rehabs that
is like, I would rather be skinny
and high than fat and sober.
So when I started my practice,
(13:40):
I wanted to just talk
about all the overlaps.
So I really specialize in
the conjuncture of all these
addictive patterns and alcohol
and drugs and trauma and how
these all intersect and meet.
And then my practice just kind
of was born out of that because
I realized I didn't
(14:01):
have training in ocd, and some
of my clients needed that.
So we hired an OCD therapist,
and then people needed a
couples therapist, and I just
hired people who specialized
in other things or were better
than me, you know, at certain
things.
And it all just stemmed essentially from there.
We have a nutritionist.
We have a psychiatrist.
(14:22):
I really just believe in collaborative care and the power
of clinicians coming together and sharing resources
in one space.
Very cool.
I think that's been a thing with our group practices,
too, and how it made sense to grow the practices.
(14:42):
Yeah.
So now for maybe not more
exciting, but the moment we've been waiting for.
So how did you first get into Taylor Swift, and when did you
consider yourself to be a Swiftie?
Okay, so I am the same age as
(15:03):
Taylor Swift, pretty much.
So I grew up with her.
I liked her music in high school.
When her first album came out,
I was very into that album.
And what's interesting is Taylor Swift is very intertwined
with my addiction.
So this was more when I was,
you know, in high school,
I wasn't drinking really.
(15:24):
Yet.
And then I also had this
weird thing growing up where
my parents were very against
going to concerts.
They had this whole idea of like,
it's a waste to go to a concert.
It's so expensive, you can never find good tickets.
Which is hilarious now because like in the 90s,
like it was affordable back then.
(15:46):
But my parents just like don't like big venues.
So that was just something instilled in me.
So I didn't really go to any concerts growing up.
So I never even thought to go to one of hers until later.
Which is very sad to me.
But yeah, I really liked her.
I liked her high school album.
(16:07):
I liked "Fearless" a lot.
I, though, took a turn into my
addiction once "Fearless" came out.
So I really didn't relate to her
like good girl image anymore,
which I used to, I remember right.
She came to the Grammys, I think
in like 2008 or 2010
in like a horse drawn carriage.
(16:28):
And I did not relate
to the princess
of it all or any of that.
I still loved her music
and would listen.
But I wouldn't have called
myself a Swiftie then because
I think it was internalized
misogyny on some level.
But also I was just drinking
and like into doing drugs and did
(16:50):
not relate to, you know,
"Romeo and Juliet," singing fair,
I remember I loved like the song
"Breathe" when I, when my boyfriend
and I broke up, I like listened
to that song on repeat.
I loved "Forever and Always."
And I really loved her "Speak now"
album that came out and like that
(17:11):
anger I really related to more.
But there was a
I mean, yeah, I'm interested in
your guys answers to this too,
but I, I don't think I would
have even considered myself a
Swiftie then because it, it
wasn't cool, you know, And I
was very obsessed with being
cool in college.
(17:33):
Yeah, I think it did not, I
would not have called myself
a Swiftie until "Red" came out.
Yeah.
And when "Red" came out I,
my boyfriend who became my husband
and then ex husband.
We broke up for like
a little while.
(17:55):
And I remember like I was just
engrossed in "Red" and that's
when I became a Swiftie.
And that album still holds like
a very special place in my heart.
Like of course we all
are obsessed with "All too Well
(the 10 Minute Version.)"
And I needed that.
And even on the Taylor's
(18:15):
Version of "Red", like
those songs resonate so much.
The song with Phoebe Bridgers
on that record where she says,
"how can a person know everything
at 18 and nothing at 22?"
Oh my God.
So that's when I, like, became
a swiftie, but I kind of,
(18:35):
like, listened along the way
in high school, but it.
It didn't really strike.
And even when I listen to...
This is really embarrassing.
This is really embarrassing.
When I started dating again
after I divorced my husband,
I loved "Enchanted," and.
(19:05):
And I would, like...
I knew that I would, like,
listen to "Enchanted,"
when I was starting to
limerance around somebody.
Oh, boy.
Yeah, it was rough.
It was rough.
So that's when, like, that
struck for me.
But "Red" is really, like, my
record and when I became a Swiftie.
And we know you do not identify
(19:26):
as a Swiftie, but so again, I think
mine comes from just like a
I don't want to be labeled,
especially, like, if.
If and when she does something
really, really problematic.
I would like a little...
You don't have to get
a tattoo removed.
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm keeping a safe
distance, but loving
and appreciating all the same.
Yeah.
Like I said,
(19:46):
I started with her
in late high school.
How old is Taylor Swift?
She's..
Did she just turn 36?
Okay, she just turned 35.
She just turned 35.
So I'm
We're a smidge older than her.
Yeah, yeah.
But, yeah, same.
Same story.
Amanda, like, I grew up
with her, and, yeah, she
(20:07):
was kind of interwoven.
I remember it feeling
I remember when "Shake it
Off" came out, and I remember
being like, whoa, girl.
What is like, what are you doing?
Yeah, this is like.
This is big.
Like, you're up to some stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
And I remember feeling just like,
so, like the limitlessness of
(20:27):
art, of women.
Like, I just remember feeling
really, like, enchanted by that.
And you're going to read me
for that one for a long time.
Yes.
I think that that maybe was when
things like, I got.
I loved her forever, but then
I think that was a piece
that I was like, oh, shit.
(20:47):
You just do what you want, I guess.
Like, yeah, like, yeah, yeah.
It's so interesting, Ilyse,
hearing about "Red," because I
think that is very common.
A lot of people get in with "Red"
and what's interesting is I was
so far gone in my addiction
by the time "Red" came out.
I, like, didn't listen
to music for a while.
I was so suicidal and so far gone.
(21:10):
And she also dressed like a 50s
housewife during "Red," which
I was like, what are you doing?
This is...
I, like, had had it
that she was still.
I didn't even listen to the album
because I saw how she was
dressing, I think, and was just
like, I don't relate to this at
all and then I got sober right
(21:32):
after that, right around when
"1989" came out.
Trying to think of the exact
time that 1989 came out,
I got sober and that totally
changed everything for me and I
became full obsessed.
Bonafide Swiftie.
My issue with her had always been
I was never a country person.
(21:53):
When I was super young in high
school, I like it was
interesting and different enough
that I liked it, but that was
always my hang up with it.
So when she fully switched
to pop, I was like, oh, my God.
Because the lyrics were
always what I loved.
So when I heard her doing
(22:14):
pop but keeping her deep
lyrics, I was obsessed.
The song "Clean" is like one
of the most important songs
to me because it was like,
about my addiction and getting
clean and all of that.
And then "Reputation" is
so important to me.
It was like when I met
my husband and all.
(22:38):
Yeah, "Reputation" is still
the most important album to me.
So I was fully, fully,
fully converted.
I couldn't get tickets to "1989,"
but I got them for "Reputation."
And then it was, you know, once
you see her live, your obsession
just goes to a different level.
But it was so strange to see,
like, everything change with
"Midnights" and the ERAS tour.
Because when I was going
(22:58):
to "Reputation" tour, no one
wanted to go with me.
I had to, like, bribe my friends
essentially, and pay
for their tickets for them to go.
But were they converted
after they went?
Doesn't look good.
They loved it and they
thought she was great,
but I think that they were.
They just weren't on my level.
(23:19):
Like, I,
after Reputation, I like,
stalked every Reddit thread.
I got so into the lore.
I had a very similar.
I met my husband the same
time she met Joe.
So I was like super bonded
into that experience.
I was also devastated when they
broke up because of that.
(23:42):
So, yeah, that I don't know.
I really like personally, like,
it went from music to being
really into her personally
during "Reputation" specifically.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
As we're talking about the
albums, I'm thinking about how
they were interwoven in my life
and my relationship, which was
(24:05):
not a good relationship, but
like "1989" came out the year I
got married and had my daughter,
which is really cool that she
was like, raised with "1989" and
so she's been a swiftie.
Like, we got to go to the ERAS
tour for her eighth birthday.
Oh, my gosh.
That's what I recorded.
(24:25):
Can I just interrupt
you for a second?
Yes, please.
When I went to the ERAS
tour, my daughter was
three months old and I recorded,
I have a video on my phone
of, like, me talking to her,
if she ever cares about it.
To be like, I'm thinking of you.
I wish you were here with me.
That's so sweet.
That is so cool.
(24:46):
I love.
I don't know if she'll ever want to
listen to it, but I was obsessed
with figuring out how to go when
I was super pregnant because her.
My due date was the exact date that
she was going to be in Tampa.
So I was trying to figure
out if I could fly
to Arizona, what I could do.
I had the most miserable pregnancy.
So I was like, I am going
(25:07):
no matter what.
And I just.
So what I did was
I just picked the farthest date out
of the North America tour.
Cause remember her, right?
Like the abroad stuff, we didn't
know if it was going to happen.
So I went to LA
and I was like, this is,
I'm going to give myself
this gift of going
by myself to the ERAS tour.
This is my, you know, my gift
(25:29):
for giving birth.
I love that.
And I carried it
through my pregnancy.
I love that.
Yeah.
So my
I grew up going to a lot
of concerts and my dad and I have
always had a close relationship
because of pop music.
And so he actually had
seen Taylor with me.
He's loved Taylor for a long time.
(25:51):
I did ask him today
for the episode.
I asked him and
my oldest daughter, who's
about to be 10, I was like,
what do you love about Taylor?
And he said he loves that she
is an incredible
songwriter and storyteller.
(26:11):
So he's a bit
He is a swiftie.
We saw her.
They do these, like, in between
performances at F1, which is
like a car race in Austin, where
when an artist is like, between
albums, they perform at F1.
And Taylor performed one
year and we were like.
We got pit tickets.
(26:32):
And so nobody was that into her
at that time, because it was right
between "Reputation" and "Lover."
Yeah.
And it was incredible.
And yeah, so he had seen her then.
And then
when I found out about the ERAS
tour, I said, "dad, I really need
(26:53):
you to come see the ERAS tour
with me either in Houston or
Dallas because I have to heal
from my divorce."
And he said, "I'm
getting the tickets."
And we went to see her in Houston
and it was really, really fun.
Now, how did you know that
that would heal you?
(27:13):
Well, what about it?
Wouldn't I totally...
Being in a stadium full of women,
bonding with my dad, listening
to all the breakup music, just
everything about it would heal me.
Absolutely.
And it did.
And it did, but my dad said
(27:34):
that that was the best concert
that he had been to in his life.
This man has seen.
Wow.
Paul McCartney and the Rolling
Stones, every
single tour since 1969.
And he said the ERAS tour was
the best concert
he has gone to in his life.
I believe it.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
(27:55):
What healed you
about the ERAS tour?
Okay, I'm going to say
something controversial that
I do think that the "Reputation"
tour healed me more.
That's fair.
But I think the coolest thing
about the ERAS tour that
really healed me was.
I mean, obviously the scale of it
was incredible, but I was
(28:17):
just so inspired by how I'm
just someone who is very, like,
embarrassed of my, like, old self
in lots of ways.
Like, I.
I'm very prone to thinking
I was cringy and killing
those parts of myself off.
And to see her doing stuff
that was, like, cringy.
Right.
Like, she's act like.
She says, like, want to go back
(28:37):
to high school with me and stuff.
And watching her just fully own
it was so powerful to see, and
it gave me a lot of space to be
more myself, be more authentic,
not kill off older parts of
myself and embrace, like,
cringiness.
(28:59):
Yeah, I think that was the.
I mean, there were a lot
of things, but that was one
of the biggest things for.
I was just so struck
by that the whole time.
So I think that's one
of the things that gets me and.
And makes me really emotional
about the Taylor's versions.
Yeah.
So my tattoo.
(29:20):
Yes, says Taylor's version.
And partly I got that tattoo
because of what it represents with
her, like, fighting against this
man that, like all of her music.
But I think there's also.
And maybe this is something that
therapists think about more than
(29:41):
the general public, but there is
something so beautiful to me
about her going back and
revisiting all of this old
music, like, visiting all of
these old parts of herself that
she's matured from.
And she's, like, singing these
(30:03):
old songs with a mature voice.
She's experienced so much more
in life and relationships
since these older songs.
And
And then, like, hearing the songs
from the Vault that, like, didn't
make it on, that are a lot
of them, like, more controversial.
(30:26):
Like "Slut (Taylor's version)".
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just get really emotional
around the Taylor's versions.
How do those land with you?
Oh, yeah.
I'm very, very emotional
about them.
I love them so, so, so much.
I still don't listen to, like,
Fearless a lot because I just.
(30:47):
It's just not my album
the country stuff.
I probably won't listen
to debut a lot, but yeah, I.
I think, I think it's
incredible what she's done.
I think it is.
It gives me chills to go back
and think about,
like, the different path she could
have taken and how different.
Like, I was obsessed with that Time
(31:08):
article that came out last year.
Like, I have her,
I have the time, I have the
I have it framed of like that,
the COVID of that magazine.
Just because I feel like I'm
someone who has struggled so much
with people pleasing and wanting
to be good enough.
And I just like "Miss Americana."
All of that just like, was so
(31:29):
incredible to me in understanding
her and relating to her so much.
So it's just so cool to watch
what she's done and go back.
And I get chills thinking about
what would have happened if she
wouldn't have done that or even
I make up that on some level
her and Joe were having
conversations about her not
going on tour.
(31:49):
And can you imagine, like, how
different things would have
been if this tour didn't exist?
If she wouldn't have done
that, it would have been so.
It wouldn't have been
the way that it is.
And it's just.
Yeah.
I also really am
such a try hard on every level.
And I really relate to that in
(32:10):
her and I really appreciate
that she is, like, open about
that versus so many people try
to be cool and try not to try
to make things look
effortless.
And I think it's such
a powerful example.
Yeah, I watched Miss Americana
with my daughter
who's about to turn 10.
(32:32):
And obviously Taylor Swift
has always been very
ingrained in her life.
And she had a really,
really tough time at the beginning
of this school year.
She was like, struggling
with going to school.
It was extremely stressful.
She was having a lot of anxiety.
(32:52):
And we started
to watch "Miss Americana."
And I had talked to her a little
bit about what happened
at the VMAs with Taylor and Kanye.
And I, I showed her
specifically that piece and then
we talked about it.
And in that way that like Dan
Siegel talks about how kids talk
(33:13):
through stories to, like, work
through their trauma, she was
talking about that to anybody who
would listen, like, bringing up
like, well, one year, like, Taylor
was winning a VMA and Kanye west
got up on the stage and really
embarrassed Taylor.
(33:33):
And we, I, you know, as
a therapist, I was like,
see, you can see her
freeze response as she's.
As this is happening.
Yes.
And we've straightened it out.
But for a little while, she was
confused about Kendrick Lamar
versus Kanye, the K names.
And so I've been like, no, no, no.
Like, Kendrick Lamar is
on the "Bad Blood" remix.
(33:54):
This has nothing to do with Kanye.
But she'll like.
She was asking for a little
bit, like, oh, is that the man
that did that to Taylor?
And I was like, no, no, no.
This man is a very good man.
Like, we love his music in this
house, but, you know, on so
many levels, we can't relate
to her at all because of how
(34:15):
wealthy and powerful she is.
But then she's just a girl's girl,
and she has struggled,
and she's showed us her struggles.
And so I'm especially curious
what it was like for you
with the population you work with
and with all of your expertise,
hearing her speak to her
eating disorder as well.
(34:37):
Yeah, I mean, I had always
suspected that she had one during
"1989," so I think it was amazing
to hear her talk about that.
I think she set such
a great example for women
to be open about that.
So, yeah, I mean,
I thought that was incredible.
(34:58):
And as someone who had an eating
disorder, definitely related
to a lot of what
she was talking about.
And I think it's just been
really cool to see
because I was very, like.
When you looked at her, it
was very scary a lot
of times during that time.
And that was something that I
didn't relate to her on because
I had given up my eating disorder
(35:21):
at that point, and I also
never looked like that, so.
But, yeah, I think
that her talking.
I wish she would still
talk about it more.
I get why she doesn't.
But, yeah, I think that
that was really powerful
for her to talk about.
I've had several clients who
identify as Swifties,
and they're like.
(35:41):
I love how we're saying
we identify as Swifties.
And, like, she's been
so important to them.
There's this one client
that keeps popping up in my
mind as we're talking.
How do you guys.
How are.
I'm imagining that you guys are
weaving Taylor into your sessions?
(36:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that.
Tell us.
Let's hear a little...
Yeah, I mean, I love it because,
you know, they'd explain
to me what lyrics are
really striking to them.
Especially, you know, during
the pandemic, I had a lot
of clients that were talking more
about "Folklore" and "Evermore"
(36:22):
and things like that.
And that was essentially how
my whole TikTok account started.
I would
The TikTok that started it was.
You know, my favorite sessions are
when clients come in and tell me
what song is stuck in their head.
Cause it tells me,
you know, everything that I need
to know in context, right.
Of what's going on.
(36:45):
So, yeah, I think those sessions
are so fun to talk about
what lyrics they relate to.
Why?
Because she just gives words
to experiences that you didn't
even know you were feeling.
One of my favorites that I
really have talked to a lot
of clients about is the one that
I'm thinking of is "Peace."
I think it is such an incredible
representation of someone who
(37:05):
struggles with mental health and
someone that doesn't, and how,
like, you can promise them
everything, but they're never
going to have a peaceful life if
they live with you because there's
going to be drama that is part of
your life, essentially.
So I've talked to clients a lot
about that, and they've really
talked about how they relate to
that and wonder if they will be
able to find someone or if the
(37:26):
person they are with will be
able to accept them, even if
they can never, you know, give
them peace.
And I find the ones that I
relate to personally are.
You know, we can get
on an even deeper level because
I relate to that as well.
I don't know how it landed
in sessions for you or how it
(37:48):
landed personally, but I know
on a personal level for us,
we were, like, wrecked
by a "Tortured Poet's Department."
Like, I was listening to it
for, like, two hours a night
in the bath, crying.
It really hit.
Yeah.
(38:09):
And I wonder your insight on why
that one was such a particularly
powerful album for people.
I definitely think that it explores
mental health themes in a way
that she's never explored before.
I think a lot of it.
Right.
Even if you look at "Peace,"
it's more about her fame.
(38:31):
Right.
Rather than really explicitly
talking about mental health.
So I think those of us that
struggle with mental health
can read between the lines
and know what she's saying.
But this was so overt that
other people that maybe wouldn't
have thought she was that deep
really understood it.
On a different level, I personally,
(38:52):
although I saw critique about,
like, the metaphor of the mental
hospital, I thought it was
a very powerful representation.
I related to it and had
a lot of clients relate
to feeling that way.
So I think it was a lot of that.
I mean, the lyrics were just so.
I mean, her lyrics are
always incredible.
(39:13):
But there was something, especially
when you compare it
to "Midnights," which I also love.
But "Tortured Poets" is just so long.
It's so dense to me.
Like, I've always loved
Lana Del Rey, but the music
is what I get tripped on.
Like her words are incredible,
but I don't love the music.
(39:33):
And to me, Tortured Poets felt like
all of the depth I
could ever want from Taylor.
But with the matching
really interesting vocals that are
really interesting music that
works in tandem together.
And I can say I personally
struggled a lot last year with
(39:54):
just changes with my business.
Feeling like I didn't know what
I was doing, feeling angry.
So some of those songs really
just were so healing
for me on so many levels.
Very similar, a lot
of personal struggles, struggles
with the business.
Like I
(40:16):
Like I took on different
songs at different times.
But I remember when I was deeply
struggling with the business and
you know, as like a therapist,
social media personality, like
trying to be at a public facing
professional while you're in
personal struggle.
Like "I Can Do it
(40:36):
With a Broken Heart."
Yeah.
Is such an incredible
song to capture that.
And then I remember when I was
struggling with my people
pleaser parts versus business.
I was all about "Who's Afraid
of Little Old Me," what about you?
(40:57):
So I
I was so.
I'm so impressed by how
y'all have time stamped your life
with her record.
I am.
I was truly blown away while
y'all were going, while you
were walking us through that.
But this one did,
I do have a time stamp on.
This one is I was.
I'm going through a divorce
and this one was like a big piece
(41:18):
of that and the all
of the acknowledgment of loving
men that are bad for us.
Yeah, like that's my like
post divorce dating era.
And like so yeah, it.
I remember we were in Marfa
walking down the streets
and just like call and response
singing "So Long London."
(41:38):
And that just like was so healing.
So healing.
And then today in the car,
I was listening
to the album and straight.
Straight out the slammer.
Fresh Out...
Thank you.
"Fresh Out the Slammer."
And that's what separates a Swiftie
(41:59):
from somebody who does not
identify as a Swiftie.
But yeah, y'all's recall.
Yeah.
Albums and song titles.
I'm like, oh wow.
Wow.
Okay, this is.
Yeah, that's the delineator.
But I texted Ilyse about that
song because I had a crush on
our contractor when I was married
(42:23):
and post that rung him up.
And that song just really felt.
I really could feel that
energy with that song.
Like, oh, I know exactly
who my first call is.
So yeah, the whole, the whole
album really did it for me.
We also have a lot of jokes in
(42:43):
our dating life about men passing
away, like when we don't hear
from them or when we have
to lay them officially to rest.
And there's a lot of
metaphor around.
Yeah, yeah.
We've conducted actually like to
my third ERAS tour in London.
(43:03):
I wore like funeral blacks
to like lay all those men to rest
that didn't deserve to be.
That Florida lyric is really.
Yeah.
So powerful.
All the bodies that
have been on my body.
(43:24):
Fuck, yeah.
Yeah.
You mentioned earlier, and I
said it again, the internalized
misogyny around Taylor Swift.
Yeah.
Ilyse has a really beautiful
vetting question for dating.
She'll ask if she's
on a date with a man or going
on a date with a man.
She'll ask him his favorite.
No, that's not what I say.
(43:45):
It literally said on my Hinge
profile, like, you, you have to
like at least one Taylor Swift
song because this is seriously
the best weeding out question
for men because they will
actually tell you how they feel
about Taylor Swift.
I have had men who masquerade
(44:06):
as like feminists.
Yeah.
One gentleman.
And I don't want to give specifics.
Lovely man from...
And I'm not going to say the other
pieces, but he went off about how
Taylor Swift actually represents
(44:28):
capitalism, which is fair.
Like there are some
pieces about that.
One man asked me for
we were supposed to go for a ride
on his motorcycle and he asked me
for a FaceTime the night before
the date and I ended up having
to cancel because of his.
He went off on Taylor Swift and how
she actually has put men in a
(44:53):
She has put men like in a
What am I looking for?
Like, everybody was
mad at "Barbie" too.
I didn't ask his opinion,
but I had heard enough.
I said like, it's important
to me that people can find
at least one Taylor Swift song
they like because The National
produced one of the albums.
(45:14):
And so if you like, you can find at
least one song if you're an indie
guy on "Folklore" or "Evermore" that
you like or Kendrick Lamar remix.
Yes, Lamar remix.
There has to be something.
And so seriously, it tells me
so much about a man,
their feelings on Taylor Swift.
(45:34):
They do not have to be
obsessed with her.
But you do like it when
they have a little.
I like it when they
appreciate my obsession.
Yeah.
And I do like it.
If they are actually
into her, that's great.
But that's not necessary.
I just need to know that they can
find at least one song and they
don't even have to sit through all
too well the 10 minute version.
(45:57):
Yeah, that's my thing.
I love it.
I think that's a Great.
A great thing.
Yeah.
Anything else on Taylor before we
ask you our final question?
I just think what she's been
through is so inspiring.
And sometimes I don't let
myself get fully inspired by it
because I think of the rhetoric
(46:17):
that exists online.
Right.
It's easy to be like,
she's a billionaire.
She has so much power.
And that's true.
True.
But when I am struggling
in my personal life, it's why
I have that cover framed.
I think about that Time article.
I think about all
she's been through.
I think about.
"Thank you, Amy."
Right.
As like, if
(46:38):
this wouldn't have happened,
if she wouldn't have been
able to, you know, if.
If all this stuff hadn't happened
with Kanye west and everything
she went through, like, her
journey is such an incredible arc
when you actually look at it.
And there were so many times
where people forget, like,
she really was unpopular,
she really was hated.
(47:00):
And it is so cool to think
about where she is now.
And she didn't stop.
She just didn't stop producing.
She didn't stop making music.
She didn't stop being herself.
And I think that's
really inspiring.
I love that.
And I want to tag on how cool it is
(47:21):
that it's such a uniting force.
And I think coming out of COVID
where we were so isolated and I
love that we have "Folklore" and
"Evermore" to represent that time
where we were all kind of
hibernating to come out of it
and unite at the ERAs tour and
(47:41):
like, most insane bathroom line
I've ever seen.
Because it was mostly women.
Yeah.
But everybody was so nice.
Everybody was so excited
to be there.
Everybody was so different
from each other.
But to just unite in this joyous
(48:02):
experience and to be
like singing to strangers
and hugging your friends.
I think there was a reason that so
many of us wanted to go multiple
times to experience that high.
And I think about how it
was such a contrast.
It's like a moment of feeling
truly, like, so alive.
(48:24):
Yeah.
And so I love her along
with everything it represents
for all of us.
Personally, I love
how it's such a uniting force.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
Amanda, marry, fuck,
kill "Red," "Reputation"
(48:44):
and "Tortured Poets."
I would Kill "Red."
I would have to marry "Reputation."
Yeah.
And I would fuck "Tortured."
because "Reputation"
Like, if I like "Reputation."
Yeah.
"Reputation," like "New Year's Day"
is my all time favorite song.
It was my wedding song.
(49:05):
I'm obsessed with it.
It just the rest of my life doesn't
make sense without "Reputation."
Which sounds insane.
Yes.
But that's how I feel.
That's how you feel.
Totally get it.
Thank you so much for
being with us today.
Where can listeners find you
and especially find your book?
(49:26):
Yeah, so you can find
my book on Amazon.
It's called "Not Drinking Tonight."
You can learn more about me and my
practice at theapyforwomencenter.com
and you can follow me on Instagram
or Tik tok @Therapyforwomen.
And my podcast is called
"Nuance Needed."
Amazing.
Thank you so much.
This was awesome.
(49:46):
Thank you guys so much.
This was so great.
So fun.
Bye.
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you liked what you heard, please
subscribe and consider leaving
a review if you haven't already.
Thank you.
You can find us on all
socials @thehillingjourney.
You can find us online at
www.thehillingjourney.com and you
can shoot us an email
at thehillingjourney@gmail.com.
(50:09):
Talk soon.
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